NationStates Jolt Archive

http://q.queso.com/archives/001717

...discovered a few interesting things. First, I learned that a judge in the Northern Illinois U.S. District Court issued a ruling earlier this month which bars government support of future Boy Scouts Jamborees. The decision is available (in PDF form) from the ACLU’s website; it contains a thorough description of how the Boy Scouts meet the standard of a religious organization, and as such, how explicit government support thus violates the Constitution’s prohibition of a link between government and religion. Seems logical to me, and would seem to put this whole issue to bed. Oh, if it were only that easy.

The other thing I learned tonight demonstrates why it’s not that easy; it revolves around an argument made by the government in the Illinois court case that has set the stage for at least one future attempt to maintain government support of the Boy Scouts. Essentially, the U.S. claimed that the plaintiffs in the lawsuit — people who, as federal taxpayers, brought suit under their right to exercise oversight over the way their tax money was being spent — lack standing to claim harm because the money wasn’t spent pursuant to the clause of the Constitution dealing with taxation and government spending (Article I, section 8, clause 1). Instead, the Department of Defense claimed that their support of the Boy Scout Jamboree derived from the specific powers vested in Congress over military affairs (Article I, section 8, clauses 12-14), and as such, taxpayers wouldn’t have the same right to question the way the money is spent. The District Court judge found ample evidence that the money was spent at least in part under Congress’ taxation and spending authority, and dismissed the argument. The reason this is interesting to me is that it appears our Senate took note of this, and passed an amendment to the Defense Department spending bill yesterday, an amendment which explicitly allows the Secretary of Defense to support the Boy Scout Jamboree on the basis of it being required “for defending our national security and preparing for combat.” (To see the amendment, you can follow this link to the Congressional Record documents, click the link to page S8686, and then scroll down two or three screens to “SA 1342”, the relevant text.)

Now you see why I find this so fascinating? It’s clear that the Constitution forbids our government from supporting organizations that mandate religious faith (like the Boy Scouts), and it’s also pretty clear that there’s no way the Senate would get the country to amend that ban out of the Constitution. So in order to get around it, the Senate is trying to pass laws that aim to prevent ordinary taxpayers from having sufficient standing to bring suit — “what we do might be unconstitutional, but you don’t have the right to file a court case to demonstrate that, so we can do it anyway.” And as the final straw, they did all of it by declaring that the Boy Scout Jamboree is vital for national security.


:rolleyes: Come on guys, you senators can make up a better bullshit rider to override the courts...

queso.com....:D

I couldnt even read this...boy scouts vital to national security? We are in more trouble then I had originally thought.

Doesn't the shrubs "faith" based initiatives conflict with the Constitution? Since they give tax money to Religion then there should be no issues with the Scouts using public lands.

Ahhh well. I am an Eagle Scout so my views are tainted ;)

I'm too lazy to read the article, but can you put in some snippets for the reasons they're so important?

Doesn't the shrubs "faith" based initiatives conflict with the Constitution? Since they give tax money to Religion then there should be no issues with the Scouts using public lands.

Ahhh well. I am an Eagle Scout so my views are tainted ;)
Nah, only when they start to get into the entanglement mess. Case-by-case basis. This is important because first, a court ruled that it was unconstitutional to hold jamborees on army land, then congress decided to make it so no US taxpayer has legal standing to sue by diving through a loophole and declaring the boyscouts vital to national security.

Scouts were a recruiting tool for the armed forces. Mine still has handy links with the RAF.

http://q.queso.com/archives/001717

:rolleyes: Come on guys, you senators can make up a better bullshit rider to override the courts...
Yeah, it be a real shame the congress have to pass some convoluted law in an attempt to override a tiny minority seeking to follow the letter of the Constitution without even understanding the spirit thereof. The Boy Scouts of America is not, I say again ... not a religious organization unless you choose to so define it as part of an animus against it. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it be a real shame the congress have to pass some convoluted law in an attempt to override a tiny minority seeking to follow the letter of the Constitution without even understanding the spirit thereof. The Boy Scouts of America is not, I say again ... not a religious organization unless you choose to so define it as part of an animus against it. :rolleyes:
● Youth and Adult Volunteers
Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, and the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scouting’s methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as adult volunteer leaders.

● Employment
With respect to positions limited to professional Scouters or, because of their close relationship to the mission of Scouting, positions limited to registered members of the Boy Scouts of America, acceptance of the Declaration of Religious Principle, the Scout Oath, and the Scout Law is required. Accordingly, in the exercise of their constitutional right to bring the values of Scouting to youth members, the Boy Scouts of America will not employ atheists, agnostics, known or avowed homosexuals, or others as professional Scouters or in other capacities in which such employment would tend to interfere with the mission of reinforcing the values of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law in young people.


No atheists? No homosexuals? No agnostics? Oh dear, not religious AT ALL.

No atheists? No homosexuals? No agnostics? Oh dear, not religious AT ALL.
Call it want you want. It's not affiliated with any particular religion, it has no clergy, it doesn't support or advocate any particular religious organization, and it requires no "litmus test" of faith in any particular god or gods. Doesn't sound like a religious organization to me.

This is just another attempt to vilify and degrade any organization, or even individual, which has an aspect of nobility or honesty or any other virtue. It's also one more reason why social conservatives have gained the upper hand in so many areas of the US. When will those who attack anything decent and uplifting finally realize that people hate this shit?

Call it want you want. It's not affiliated with any particular religion, it has no clergy, it doesn't support or advocate any particular religious organization, and it requires no "litmus test" of faith in any particular god or gods. Doesn't sound like a religious organization to me.

This is just another attempt to vilify and degrade any organization, or even individual, which has an aspect of nobility or honesty or any other virtue. It's also one more reason why social conservatives have gained the upper hand in so many areas of the US. When will those who attack anything decent and uplifting finally realize that people hate this shit?

Do you maintain that an organization that bans atheists, agnostics, and homosexuals is "decent and uplifting", with good "nobility or honesty"?

You got one messed-up Scouting organization down there.

Oaths? God?

Hunh?

Why don't you join the 20th century (we'll waive the 21st for the first six months)?

I was actively involved in Scouting in Canada, I'd have dropped it on a moment's notice if anything involving God or the military were involved. What the Hell have you people done to Scouting, anyway?

This is just another attempt to vilify and degrade any organization, or even individual, which has an aspect of nobility or honesty or any other virtue. It's also one more reason why social conservatives have gained the upper hand in so many areas of the US. When will those who attack anything decent and uplifting finally realize that people hate this shit?

That is the weakest straw man I have ever seen you write, Eutrusca. You're slipping.

Do you maintain that an organization that bans atheists, agnostics, and homosexuals is "decent and uplifting", with good "nobility or honesty"?
No. I happen to believe that Scouting should remove as many of those barriers to membership as possible. Does Scouting still teach uplifting and decent things? Of course. You are making an unwarranted generalization when you condemn an honorable and long-standing organization which has helped thousands of young men and women become kind, generous and honorable people simply because you take issue with some of their regulations.

That is the weakest straw man I have ever seen you write, Eutrusca. You're slipping.
Ok, Fass. I respect you, man, even though you can be one of the more irritating people I've ever met! Heh! Tell me ... what sort of "straw man" did I set up?

No. I happen to believe that Scouting should remove as many of those barriers to membership as possible. Does Scouting still teach uplifting and decent things? Of course. You are making an unwarranted generalization when you condemn an honorable and long-standing organization which has helped thousands of young men and women become kind, generous and honorable people simply because you take issue with some of their regulations.
Regulations which forbid me, an upstanding and highly moral person from volunteering in their organization. Nice.


Yes, they are a religious organization, no, they can't be housed on federal land.

I dunno, this sounds like some kind of mutant backwoods version of Scouting, if you ask me. I could never get behind the organization that's described above. Let me guess, it's not affiliated with the World Organization of the Scout Movement, is it? And you people probably have no idea just who Lord Baden-Powell was, do you?

*Edit: http://www.scout.org/front/index.shtml

First of all everybody get a grip. The Boy Scouts is a good organization that teaches real values such as leadership, independence and charity. The camp I go to yearly has a real sense of community and family.

As a member of the BSA I can say that we ARE NOT affiliated with any specific religion. I've known Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and many others. As far as the issue on homosexuality goes; it is only a matter of time before that issue is settled once and for all in favor of the gay population, whether it be from external or internal pressure (MANY members believe that gays should be allowed in, and the counsils LISTEN).

I hate it when people degrade this organization and villify those who are members. And I LOATHE it when the government labels us. We're not a "Christian" organization, and we are not your damn draftees!

I was too lazy to read the article, but, to slightly leave the issue of gov. funds, I think that it is sad that the ACLU has not allowed the BSA National Jamboree to go on just because they have to swear an oath to God. And I guess somehow that violates some stupid rule they made. These scouts voluntarily make the oath, have paid roughly $3000 to go to this event, and now are not being allowed to go because they, once again, voluntarily make an oath to God??? And isn't the ACLU supposed to support these people???
Oh well... I guess none of you stupid liberals will listen because I am a boy scout...

Know what's funny? I'm an Eagle Scout, and Pagan, and bi. Granted, at the time of being active in scouts, I considered myself athiest and straight, which was known to my troop. They chose to make a nonissue of it, but other troops probably could've kicked me out for it. I think that it depends on the troop's interpretation of "God" and how they "enforce" doing one's "duty" to said deity/deities. Also, I'm very amused I'm now a matter vital to national security. I wonder if I can use this if I ever get arrested. *grins*

I dunno, this sounds like some kind of mutant backwoods version of Scouting, if you ask me. I could never get behind the organization that's described above. Let me guess, it's not affiliated with the World Organization of the Scout Movement, is it? And you people probably have no idea just who Lord Baden-Powell was, do you?

*Edit: http://www.scout.org/front/index.shtml
I have one of Lord Baden-Powell's books, I think, oh wait no it's by DC Beard, haha.

Okay, first off, I am an Eagle Scout so all the attacks on such a great organization, i.e. the Boy Scouts really ercks me off. Mandated religon my foot! I have friends who are staunch athiests and they're active Boy Scouts and not once has religon been forced on them in the BSA. Secondly, I've been in the Boy Scouts since the Tiger Cubs and about the only things I've heard about religon in all my years participating is the 12th point of the Scout Law: A scout is reverant, and prayer by the chaplin before dinner... I have a jewish friend in the scouts and he doesn't care if the chaplin leads a prayer to Jesus... Heck, not even the atheists care!

I dunno, this sounds like some kind of mutant backwoods version of Scouting, if you ask me. I could never get behind the organization that's described above. Let me guess, it's not affiliated with the World Organization of the Scout Movement, is it? And you people probably have no idea just who Lord Baden-Powell was, do you?

*Edit: http://www.scout.org/front/index.shtml
Sigh. Always with the insults.

Baden-Powell founded the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts of America was still affiliated with International Scouting, the last I heard. I haven't been a Scout Leader since my younger son started his senior year in high school. :rolleyes:

Okay, first off, I am an Eagle Scout so all the attacks on such a great organization, i.e. the Boy Scouts really ercks me off. Mandated religon my foot! I have friends who are staunch athiests and they're active Boy Scouts and not once has religon been forced on them in the BSA. Secondly, I've been in the Boy Scouts since the Tiger Cubs and about the only things I've heard about religon in all my years participating is the 12th point of the Scout Law: A scout is reverant, and prayer by the chaplin before dinner... I have a jewish friend in the scouts and he doesn't care if the chaplin leads a prayer to Jesus... Heck, not even the atheists care!

Chaplains? Prayers?

What the Hell?

Okay, first off, I am an Eagle Scout so all the attacks on such a great organization, i.e. the Boy Scouts really ercks me off. Mandated religon my foot! I have friends who are staunch athiests and they're active Boy Scouts and not once has religon been forced on them in the BSA. Secondly, I've been in the Boy Scouts since the Tiger Cubs and about the only things I've heard about religon in all my years participating is the 12th point of the Scout Law: A scout is reverant, and prayer by the chaplin before dinner... I have a jewish friend in the scouts and he doesn't care if the chaplin leads a prayer to Jesus... Heck, not even the atheists care!
Pssst! [ Whispers ] * don't confuse them with the facts, their minds are already made up *

Sigh. Always with the insults.

Baden-Powell founded the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts of America was still affiliated with International Scouting, the last I heard. I haven't been a Scout Leader since my younger son started his senior year in high school. :rolleyes:

Since when did you have to say prayers to Jesus or swear oaths to God? That's no kind of Scouting I've ever heard of.

Since when did you have to say prayers to Jesus or swear oaths to God? That's no kind of Scouting I've ever heard of.
[ refers you to Post 22, above ]

Know what's funny? I'm an Eagle Scout, and Pagan, and bi. Granted, at the time of being active in scouts, I considered myself athiest and straight, which was known to my troop. They chose to make a nonissue of it, but other troops probably could've kicked me out for it. I think that it depends on the troop's interpretation of "God" and how they "enforce" doing one's "duty" to said deity/deities. Also, I'm very amused I'm now a matter vital to national security. I wonder if I can use this if I ever get arrested. *grins*
:)

What the hell! Give it a try. :)

:)

What the hell! Give it a try. :)

Of course I will. Hehe.

"If it requires a uniform, it's a worthless endeavour." -George Carlin.

*nod*

The scouts say prayers (for the most part) like any other group. my troop is all christian, hence we respect that and say grace. If we're camping with a non-christian we repect that, but we aren't going to stop observing our religion for them. There's no forcing of religion whatsoever. As far as homosexuality goes, that's only in there because mormons consist of more boy scouts of america than any other group. just wait until bsa becomes more diverse and that'll go away. How may religious organizations have a synagogue, mosque, and catholic and protestant churches at one camp anyway?

All I can say is that the feds need to share the monkey crack they're obviously smoking . . .

All I can say is that the feds need to share the monkey crack they're obviously smoking . . .


Monkey crack?!?

Not with me, they don't. :p

Are people actually defending that the boyscouts are vital to national security?

They are alright I guess but it is hard to respect an organization with rules forbidding agnostics, atheists and homosexuals.

"If it requires a uniform, it's a worthless endeavour." -George Carlin.

*nod*

Obviously, he's not very kinky.

Are people actually defending that the boyscouts are vital to national security?

They are alright I guess but it is hard to respect an organization with rules forbidding agnostics, atheists and homosexuals.

I'm reminded of a joke told by Robin Williams in his role in 'Good Morning Vietnam". It was, 'What's the difference between the Army and the Cub Scouts? The Cub Scouts don't have heavy artillery.'

:D

Obviously, he's not very kinky.

On the contrary:
"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live"-George Carlin.

:D

I'm reminded of a joke told by Robin Williams in his role in 'Good Morning Vietnam". It was, 'What's the difference between the Army and the Cub Scouts? The Cub Scouts don't have heavy artillery.'

:D

Bullshit. My troop built catapults. Seriously. :)

On the contrary:
"The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live"-George Carlin.

:D

lol, but he doesn't appreciate a good uniform! He's not kinky enough, then. :p

The scouts say prayers (for the most part) like any other group. my troop is all christian, hence we respect that and say grace. If we're camping with a non-christian we repect that, but we aren't going to stop observing our religion for them. There's no forcing of religion whatsoever. As far as homosexuality goes, that's only in there because mormons consist of more boy scouts of america than any other group. just wait until bsa becomes more diverse and that'll go away. How may religious organizations have a synagogue, mosque, and catholic and protestant churches at one camp anyway?
What part about they refuse to allow atheist troop leaders don't you understand? The organization is religious. Because it is religious, because it promoted religion above non religion (doing the reverse is illegal as well), by their own admission they are religious, they are not allowed to use the army land. This isn't difficult. I'm not calling the BSA catholic or christian. I was a boy scout myself, until I quit over this homosexual bullshit, I've been up through the cub scouts, biting my tounge at the hostility shown towards athiests. I am saying that they are definitally religious, and more to the point, congress is pulling an insane stunt, effectively forbidding the american taxpayers from having any overview on how it spend it's funds. That's more the problem.

the Boy Scouts, as originally concieved and pretty much run, is designed to teach teen and pre teen aged boys leadership, wilderness survival, first aid, and other useful skills that the military finds highly useful.

It also teaches the importance of being an active citizen, the importance of conservation, and a mess of other things that even the most left wing liberal find valuable in society.

They don't allow Gays because would you if you were the Boy Scouts? From a legal liability point of view? There have been numerous incidents over the years of Adult leaders molesting boys. Yes, I understand that homosexuals are not any more likely to be sexual predators than any one else. However, the public perception is not that way. So what choice do they have?

As far as religious organization goes, the Boy Scouts are no more religious than Demolay, or the Girl Scouts. Scouts are supposed to be reverent, and are supposed to believe in God (as in God and My Country), but they are not required to be Christian. For one thing, there are plenty of Scout Troops in Israel.

So if it comes to it, I would rather see Scouts on public land using American military facilities, because the good that Scouting does far outweighs the fact that they are not "politically correct".

No atheists? No homosexuals? No agnostics? Oh dear, not religious AT ALL.

acctually, to inform the people who have NO IDEA OF WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT :headbang: , a new rule has been passed in the BSA(boy scouts of America) if the troop does not meet at a private building (a church or someone's house) but a BUPLIC building (i.e. a police station) homosexuals and atheists ARE allowed to join because of the bill of rights. So private owners have a say, public rights do not!

acctually, to inform the people who have NO IDEA OF WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT :headbang: , a new rule has been passed in the BSA(boy scouts of America) if the troop does not meet at a private building (a church or someone's house) but a BUPLIC building (i.e. a police station) homosexuals and atheists ARE allowed to join because of the bill of rights. So private owners have a say, public rights do not!
This isn't about joining. Kindly read BSA's legal page before you spout off again buddy.

Whoa. This is some fucked up stuff.

I was in a very "loose" scout troop back in Port Aransas (well, let's just say I was just along for the ride). Never heard a single thing about church, god, or jesus (or any religious stuff, for that matter). Our scout masters even had alcahol on hand.

I have supported the Scouts in their decision to ban homosexuals, atheists and the like, because they were a private organization.
I don't think government should have any authority telling any private orgainization whom they should and should not grant membership to.
It's none of their goddamned business, to be frank.
And this was the leg on which their organization was standing on the issues.

But the second they've received very public funds for their activities, then they've chosen to sell their souls, and thus must whore out membership to anyone who seeks it.

Too bad, so sad. Shouldn't have opened the box, Pandora.

(By the way, I made it to Webelo level myself, and think the experience was good for me. It made me a better prepared atheist.) :p

Whoa. This is some fucked up stuff.

I was in a very "loose" scout troop back in Port Aransas (well, let's just say I was just along for the ride). Never heard a single thing about church, god, or jesus (or any religious stuff, for that matter). Our scout masters even had alcahol on hand.

Hey, mine was as by-the-books as they come, and the only thing religious involved was the neighbourhood church gymnasium we used to meet in. We had Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and of course, me the Unitarian. No-one swore an oath to anyone except maybe Lord Baden-Powell, I've never heard of "chaplains" involved at any point, and we most definitely were never even remotely associated with the army or with national defense.

This whole case amounts to still further evidence of America's descent into despotism.

I have supported the Scouts in their decision to ban homosexuals, atheists and the like, because they were a private organization.
I don't think government should have any authority telling any private orgainization whom they should and should not grant membership to.
It's none of their goddamned business, to be frank.
And this was the leg on which their organization was standing on the issues.

But the second they've received very public funds for their activities, then they've chosen to sell their souls, and thus must whore out membership to anyone who seeks it.

Too bad, so sad. Shouldn't have opened the box, Pandora.
So I can be an atheist and involved in Scouting in Canada, but if I move to the States and try helping out down there I can't because I don't believe in some Deity?

Nice.

So I can be an atheist and involved in Scouting in Canada, but if I move to the States and try helping out down there I can't because I don't believe in some Deity?

Nice.
Exactly. Unless you were able to follow the familiar "Don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding your atheism, homosexuality, etc.

Of course, now that they're suckling the government teat, I'd encourage you to find a good civil liberties attorney that would force them to make a decision whether they're a privately or publicly funded organization.

There's really no way for them to find out to kick you out unless you're a low-class punk who's looking for a fight and dares them to kick you out.

It's like the Army, don't ask don't tell...

"If it requires a uniform, it's a worthless endeavour." -George Carlin.

*nod*
LG! Stop that! Say something funny. :p

So what Carlin is saying is that I wasted some 34 years of my life, and was almost killed any number of times in a "worthless endeavor?" :rolleyes:

Exactly. Unless you were able to follow the familiar "Don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding your atheism, homosexuality, etc.

Of course, now that they're suckling the government teat, I'd encourage you to find a good civil liberties attorney that would force them to make a decision whether they're a privately or publicly funded organization.
Eichen! Not you too! Sigh. :(

LG! Stop that! Say something funny. :p

So what Carlin is saying is that I wasted some 34 years of my life, and was almost killed any number of times in a "worthless endeavor?" :rolleyes:

I primarily said it because it was funny(at least I thought it was). I don't agree with Carlin on everything. Though, in my opinion, he has incredible insight for a comic.

I suspect he is looking at a somewhat wider view if it. That the Army is a worthless endeavor and not that your individual time in it, your dedication to it and the country(which I respect having been in the military as well) and the way it has shaped your life are worthless endeavors.

If he is, however saying that anyone's life experiences are worthless endeavors, then I would have to wholeheartedly disagree with him. For better or worse, the only thing that makes life interesting is learning what NOT to do. :)

I don't have time to read through the thread, so it might have been said already. but the Hitler Youth orignally was the German Boy Scouts. So now the US government is taking interest in The US Boy Scouts... I smell Military brainwash program.

Ok, Fass. I respect you, man, even though you can be one of the more irritating people I've ever met! Heh! Tell me ... what sort of "straw man" did I set up?

This is just another attempt to vilify and degrade any organization, or even individual, which has an aspect of nobility or honesty or any other virtue.

You're, not so subtly, alluding to their motives being to destroy that which is "good" (of nobility, of honesty, of other virtues), despite what seems to be quite a directed attack at the government for writing a law which takes from people the right to oversee where tax money is spent, and the handing out of public funds to an organisation that is apparently so religious that it excludes non-religious members (or those members whom the religion - presumably Christianity, from the looks of things - admonishes).

I fail to see where in that there is an attack on the scouts for being "noble, honest or virtuous". They're targeting something completely different (I'd say quite the opposite of the things you mentioned). The straw man was particularly weak because it is very difficult to believe someone would attack the boyscouts because they are "noble, honest, virtuous".

Eichen! Not you too! Sigh. :(
How ya been Eutrusca?

As I said before, I fully supported the Scouts to enforce whatever rules they wanted to make as a private organization. They are protected under the constitution to do so, peacefully.

But the second the Scouts got greedy (or desperate) and took a tax-paid handout, they became a very public organization, and lost their rights as a private one. It's the same difference between attending a private and public school. The school that pays for itself can require prayer and ban homosexual student groups if they chose. A public school cannot.

Just because they're the fucking Scouts doesn't mean they get special treatment.

You know what I think concerning any group receiving "special treatment".

If you don't want to allow blacks into the country club, don't ask for a fucking grant. :rolleyes:

If you don't want to allow blacks into the country club, don't ask for a fucking grant. :rolleyes:
The entire issue whittled down into one politically incorrect, offensive sentence.

Good Job. :D

the seperation of church and state olny means that the government can not for a churnch like england did

the seperation of church and state olny means that the government can not for a churnch like england did

Not to mock, but that's quite the incomprehensible post. And it's your first. Bad impression, really.

Boy scouts, could help with basic survival skills, and help basic basic training.

Not religious, but discrimatory.

Not to mock, but that's quite the incomprehensible post. And it's your first. Bad impression, really.

I think he means that the government can not care for an established religion, or make a national religion (like the Church of England)

I spent some time as the most lax boy scout in history. Basically I reached the level of life scout, declared myself satisfied and enjoyed hiking, hanging out and learning amusing new things. Didn't even bother going on to Eagle, I knew that I wasn't that committed.

On the issue of the boy scouts and stuff about the establishment clause and so on and so forth. Hey, I've got other things to think about. But, didn't Mr. Smith have something to do with a boy scout like organization?

Since when did you have to say prayers to Jesus or swear oaths to God? That's no kind of Scouting I've ever heard of.
The two Scout troops I was in when I was younger made you swear alliegence "to God and to the Queen", and had a prayer and saluted the Union Flag at the start of every meeting. The first one I was in was also affiliated with the RAF, and we got RAF people coming and checking on us every now and then.

That's pretty standard for Scouting in the UK.

I don't have time to read through the thread, so it might have been said already. but the Hitler Youth orignally was the German Boy Scouts. So now the US government is taking interest in The US Boy Scouts... I smell Military brainwash program.
No wonder you're "Lone!" :headbang:

Have you ever been in the military, or known well someone who was? Do you know anything at all about the US military?

Okay, first off, I am an Eagle Scout so all the attacks on such a great organization, i.e. the Boy Scouts really ercks me off. Mandated religon my foot! I have friends who are staunch athiests and they're active Boy Scouts and not once has religon been forced on them in the BSA. Secondly, I've been in the Boy Scouts since the Tiger Cubs and about the only things I've heard about religon in all my years participating is the 12th point of the Scout Law: A scout is reverant, and prayer by the chaplin before dinner... I have a jewish friend in the scouts and he doesn't care if the chaplin leads a prayer to Jesus... Heck, not even the atheists care!

Obivoiusly there are people who dont care. And obviouly there are people who do (and obviouly those people couldnt join, as stated in their admissions policy). Redgardless of whether or not they care if somebody leads a prayer, the point is that since you cant technically be athiest and be a scout (in the US) the organization is Religious. May not be any particilar religion, but that doesnt matter!

You got one messed-up Scouting organization down there.

Oaths? God?

Hunh?

Why don't you join the 20th century (we'll waive the 21st for the first six months)?

I was actively involved in Scouting in Canada, I'd have dropped it on a moment's notice if anything involving God or the military were involved. What the Hell have you people done to Scouting, anyway?
Actually we haven't done a whole lot to scouting, it's been quite similar to this in the US for nearly as long as it's been around in the US. It's an organization that has an amusing attitude, part serious part fun all at the same time.

Prayers typically are quite vague, often referring to "the great spirit" or "father in heaven" never actually having come across a direct mention of jesus.

As per another reference to chaplains, there was typically a chaplain at a camp and he'd lead a small service, often involving things ranging from Native American stories, to aesops fables to passages from the bible or koran.

This is just another attempt to vilify and degrade any organization, or even individual, which has an aspect of nobility or honesty or any other virtue.

You're, not so subtly, alluding to their motives being to destroy that which is "good" (of nobility, of honesty, of other virtues), despite what seems to be quite a directed attack at the government for writing a law which takes from people the right to oversee where tax money is spent, and the handing out of public funds to an organisation that is apparently so religious that it excludes non-religious members (or those members whom the religion - presumably Christianity, from the looks of things - admonishes).

I fail to see where in that there is an attack on the scouts for being "noble, honest or virtuous". They're targeting something completely different (I'd say quite the opposite of the things you mentioned). The straw man was particularly weak because it is very difficult to believe someone would attack the boyscouts because they are "noble, honest, virtuous".
Oh. You've never overstated your case to make a point? Right.

It's not that many are attacking the Boy Scouts because they support positive values for young men and women. It's that some do, and those who also attack the Boy Scouts are aiding and abetting that.

As to "taking from the people the right to oversee where tax money is spent," the only ones raising hell about it are a small minority who see the Boy Scouts as evil because the Scouts don't support their social agenda. Now before you start tuning up on me, just think about it ... if "the people" didn't want this to happen, why would their representatives go to such great lengths to circumvent the lower court findings? Knowing politicians, they're going to go with whatever they think will earn them brownie points ( pun intended ) with their folks back home. Yes?

Yes, I understand that homosexuals are not any more likely to be sexual predators than any one else. However, the public perception is not that way. So what choice do they have?

Ummm... They have the choice to NOT be complete morons like the rest of the country, and set an EXAMPLE like the Boy Scouts are SUPPOSED to do in the first place... Yeah, im pretty sure they have that choice. But they obvoiusly choose not to use it. I rest my case.(if i ever had one...)

... the point is that since you cant technically be athiest and be a scout (in the US) the organization is Religious. May not be any particilar religion, but that doesnt matter!
And this is where we part company. The Constitution was written by diests. The freedom of religion section of the Bill of Rights prohibits the establishment of a particular religion. It says nothing whatsoever about things like prayer in public schools, spiritual references in public buildings, "In God We Trust" on our coins, "under God" in the Pledge of Alliegance, or government support for the goals of religiously affiliated organizations provided there is no "establishment of A religion."

So what Carlin is saying is that I wasted some 34 years of my life, and was almost killed any number of times in a "worthless endeavor?" :rolleyes:

Thats what it sounds like to me.

It's not that many are attacking the Boy Scouts because they support positive values for young men and women. It's that some do, and those who also attack the Boy Scouts are aiding and abetting that.

There again is the straw man, in this sort of assertion that they are attacking them because they have "positive" values. Why would anyone attack anyone over "positive" values? No, they obviously attack the scouts because they think that the values espoused by them are neither "positive," nor of such nature that they should (and/or could) be advanced with public funds.

Then again, I see the brunt on the attack being directed at parliament for trying to subvert a legally sound judgement through dubious means.

As to "taking from the people the right to oversee where tax money is spent," the only ones raising hell about it are a small minority who see the Boy Scouts as evil because the Scouts don't support their social agenda.

I beg to differ there. Many seem to be objecting to it because it is an attempt at subverting a legal ruling, and blocking the right of people to question the subversion.

Now before you start tuning up on me, just think about it ... if "the people" didn't want this to happen, why would their representatives go to such great lengths to circumvent the lower court findings? Knowing politicians, they're going to go with whatever they think will earn them brownie points ( pun intended ) with their folks back home. Yes?

What is it that so many Americans love to say like they're the first ones to get it? Oh, yeah, "the US is not a[n Athenian] democracy". In constitutional republics (and monarchies and so on), what is popular is not necessarily what is right or legal or ethical or whatever. What the people want is inconsequential in constitutional or legal matters. Popularity is not saying much, so the subversion of a ruling because the subversion is popular is yet another thing to fear in a society that has a constitutional rule of law.

And this is where we part company. The Constitution was written by diests. The freedom of religion section of the Bill of Rights prohibits the establishment of a particular religion. It says nothing whatsoever about things like prayer in public schools, spiritual references in public buildings, "In God We Trust" on our coins, "under God" in the Pledge of Alliegance, or government support for the goals of religiously affiliated organizations provided there is no "establishment of A religion."

FYI, Both "Under God", and "In God We Trust" were added to the currency and pledge WAY AFTER the founding of this country. In fact the earlyest "In God We Trust" was added in 1866. Here is a detailed explination from the US DEPARMENT OF THE TREASURY website.http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html
Im sure you can easily find a similar webpage for the pledge of allegiance.


The point is that the founders of this nation did not endorse any religion, god, or absence of god. The system was merely corrupted in this manner by those in power who wanted to demonstrate that God was on our side (the U.S.) and not theirs. It was not based on the founding principles of the US in any way. So the fact that the BSA does not allow people of athiesm to join is NOT supported by Either the Bill of Right NOR by the Constitution.

P.s. If you havent been paying attention, that means they dont get government money...

And this is where we part company. The Constitution was written by diests. The freedom of religion section of the Bill of Rights prohibits the establishment of a particular religion. It says nothing whatsoever about things like prayer in public schools, spiritual references in public buildings, "In God We Trust" on our coins, "under God" in the Pledge of Alliegance, or government support for the goals of religiously affiliated organizations provided there is no "establishment of A religion."
The courts have upheld that supporting a group of religions is the same as providing support to one religion...


Within reason. It doesn't seem like the district court's ruling is going to be overturned, and there are enough threads on this topic anyway. The point is more that congress is attempting to remove the AMERICAN TAXPAYERS ABILITY TO SUE TO PREVENT CONGRESS FROM MISAPPROPRIATING FUNDS (in this case, anyway). Congress is attempting to moot the case by removing the ability of the plaintiff (and soon to be respondent) to sue. The plaintiff is the American Taxpayer...


Let's put it this way. What if the government allowed and gave funds to, say, Satan child killers incorporated. You'd want to stop them from doing that, right? First amendment violation, right? If congress declares them "vital to national security" as well, you can't touch their funds. The courts can't order the pentagon's spending to be changed (bit of complexity there, read the original article).

And this is where we part company. The Constitution was written by diests. The freedom of religion section of the Bill of Rights prohibits the establishment of a particular religion. It says nothing whatsoever about things like prayer in public schools, spiritual references in public buildings, "In God We Trust" on our coins, "under God" in the Pledge of Alliegance, or government support for the goals of religiously affiliated organizations provided there is no "establishment of A religion."


Dont worry-there is a load of self loathing douchebags that dont have any faith in anything, including themselves, working to get "In God We Trust" off of our currency.

Well I wouldnt put it as vital to national security. I was in the Cub scouts and then the Boy scouts. What they taught us was some basic skills in life. Mainly respect for one another and teamwork. I think the orginization is important and should be recommended for any young child/adult. Girl scouts the same way. When I grew up it was actually cool to be in the scouts. Why? Because it seemed everyone was in it at one point or another. I think organizations like these and sports in schools teach very important lessons in life that people need to suceed as adults.

Well I wouldnt put it as vital to national security. I was in the Cub scouts and then the Boy scouts. What they taught us was some basic skills in life. Mainly respect for one another and teamwork. I think the orginization is important and should be recommended for any young child/adult. Girl scouts the same way. When I grew up it was actually cool to be in the scouts. Why? Because it seemed everyone was in it at one point or another. I think organizations like these and sports in schools teach very important lessons in life that people need to suceed as adults.


Well said. On the whole, they give kids a sense of belonging and achievement and help build a foundation in developing an attitude of doing whats right.

"And so, on this day, July the 28th, I hereby declare the Hitler You-, uh, I mean, the Boy Scouts, are essential to our national security.

I feel like I'm in the Hitler Youth now, yeesh. Zee American Reich ist DEPENDING ON ME, HEIL DUBYA!

Yeah, it be a real shame the congress have to pass some convoluted law in an attempt to override a tiny minority seeking to follow the letter of the Constitution without even understanding the spirit thereof. The Boy Scouts of America is not, I say again ... not a religious organization unless you choose to so define it as part of an animus against it. :rolleyes:

Who says they're a religion? The gripe is that they're an organization that benifits from public funds, yet practices discrimination. The Klan doesn't get public money, neither should the scouts.

As a former Boy Scout and and now being a Scouter, I'd like to point out that the Boy Scouts are actually one of the lines of defenses (like the seventh I think) of the USA. Followed by the Girls Scouts and the Cubs.
Anyway, my two cents:
The BSA is pretty good when it comes to tolerating other religions, but when it comes to tolerating homosexuality or atheism, it's as fundamentalist as you can get. This is mainly because most of the funding comes from the Mormon and Catholic church, so they have a big influence on the agenda. I find it appalling that it does so, and whenever the topic comes up in my scout troops, I voice my disagreement. I've heard of people that got denied Eagle because they said they were atheist. Innofficial policy seems to be that you need to be "agnostic" at least.
It may say that a scout is reverent in the scout law, but honestly, I don't feel that obliges scouts to "believe" in God, it obliges them to respect religion and religious principles, and to play along when the camp or troop says grace, but it should in no way force them to believe anything.

http://q.queso.com/archives/001717


:rolleyes: Come on guys, you senators can make up a better bullshit rider to override the courts...

Yea right! Civil Air Patrol is more vital to National Security than these people. And that my friend, is a fact.

Yea right! Civil Air Patrol is more vital to National Security than these people. And that my friend, is a fact.I totally agree. By the time whoever it was that invaded America chews through the DoD, Nat'l Guard, Police... you think I'll stick around to let them arm the boy scouts? Who's gonna stop me from deserting? The cubs? :p

I totally agree. By the time whoever it was that invaded America chews through the DoD, Nat'l Guard, Police... you think I'll stick around to let them arm the boy scouts? Who's gonna stop me from deserting? The cubs? :p

Come Join CAP! We'll let ya shoot guns at encampments and let ya ride in choppers at the same joint. Not to mention really teach you how to survive in the woods. Its nothing like what the BSA can teach ya :D

Come Join CAP! We'll let ya shoot guns at encampments and let ya ride in choppers at the same joint. Not to mention really teach you how to survive in the woods. Its nothing like what the BSA can teach ya :DI already know how to survive in the woods: You sit down, munch on the candy bar you took along in case you got lost, blow on the whistle you brought along in case you got lost, and wait for help...
Anyway, I'll have to wait til they start a CAP over here... They might just do something after the suicide crashed his plane near the Reichstag building.

blah! CAP is full of a bunch of wussies! join the national Guard Explorers!

Do you maintain that an organization that bans atheists, agnostics, and homosexuals is "decent and uplifting", with good "nobility or honesty"?

I was in the BSA and was at best an agnostic and at worst an athiest and everyone knew it. Quite a few others were also agnostic. Most troops do not care about religious background... it is only those that hate the BSA that come up with this bull* about BSA and religion.

And I don't think that you would want any gay leaders or even other members in the troop if you were a parent. The BSA does go to areas for camping and events that are remote and the parent would have no way of looking after the kid. You people that hate the BSA because of these "reasons" need to pull your head from your ass and grow up.

blah! CAP is full of a bunch of wussies! join the national Guard Explorers!

WUSSIES? If I knew where you lived, I'd call you out on that. That is an insult to the greatest organization on this planet. I demand an apology you coward.

Who says they're a religion? The gripe is that they're an organization that benifits from public funds, yet practices discrimination. The Klan doesn't get public money, neither should the scouts.

The whole definition of Private Orginization is that the orginization is privately funded. The BSA is funded by donations from members or other WILLING people. Maybe we should research before we open our mouth and make asses out of ourselves?

I was in the BSA and was at best an agnostic and at worst an athiest and everyone knew it. Quite a few others were also agnostic. Most troops do not care about religious background... it is only those that hate the BSA that come up with this bull* about BSA and religion.

And I don't think that you would want any gay leaders or even other members in the troop if you were a parent. The BSA does go to areas for camping and events that are remote and the parent would have no way of looking after the kid. You people that hate the BSA because of these "reasons" need to pull your head from your ass and grow up.
Oh, come on. Most troops themselves don't care, but what about the professional scouters in the councils? Most of the criticism I've heard comes from people who know the heirarchy. As for not being able to watch out for their kids being a good reason to keep gays out, why do women get to be adult leaders then?
I don't hate the BSA, its fun to be in it, but some of its policies are seriously demented.

Oh, come on. Most troops themselves don't care, but what about the professional scouters in the councils? Most of the criticism I've heard comes from people who know the heirarchy. As for not being able to watch out for their kids being a good reason to keep gays out, why do women get to be adult leaders then?
I don't hate the BSA, its fun to be in it, but some of its policies are seriously demented.

Most positions available to women in the BSA in regards to non-professional scouting (not a career) are commitee members. And anyway, the common view is that women are less likely to molest a child then a man. And seriously, how many women actually went on camping trips? In all my troops I had maybe two of three times where a woman showed up.

Most positions available to women in the BSA in regards to non-professional scouting (not a career) are commitee members. And anyway, the common view is that women are less likely to molest a child then a man. And seriously, how many women actually went on camping trips? In all my troops I had maybe two of three times where a woman showed up.I know a couple in my council. I wouldn't say that they would do something like that, but you can pretty much say the same for gays. Gays are interested in men usually and not young boys. That would be a pedophile (and those shouldn't be let anywhere near kids)...

I know a couple in my council. I wouldn't say that they would do something like that, but you can pretty much say the same for gays. Gays are interested in men usually and not young boys. That would be a pedophile (and those shouldn't be let anywhere near kids)...

I agree that most gays wouldn't do anything... but most parents are just not willing to take the chance. But mostlly it is all about perception.

I agree that most gays wouldn't do anything... but most parents are just not willing to take the chance. But mostlly it is all about perception.Have you heard of the one scout troop who's scout master jumped the closet and got kicked out by his council? The troop got dissolved because the parents took their children out. :p

Hey, mine was as by-the-books as they come, and the only thing religious involved was the neighbourhood church gymnasium we used to meet in. We had Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and of course, me the Unitarian. No-one swore an oath to anyone except maybe Lord Baden-Powell, I've never heard of "chaplains" involved at any point, and we most definitely were never even remotely associated with the army or with national defense.

This whole case amounts to still further evidence of America's descent into despotism.

The truth sucks.

The truth sucks.
Only because it's obscured by horse-shit and flag-waving these days. Otherwise, the truth rocks.

Actually, the boy scouts were originally founded as a way to prepare boys for future military service. They still are supposed to learn how to handle firearms, wilderness survival, etc.
Futhermore, the ACLU and their pet judge are full of shit. How, exactly, does someone find out your agnostic/atheist/homosexual? Well, either you are publicly banging (do people still use the term "banging", did people ever use it?) your boyfriend, you wander around telling people who don't want to know about how you hate god (or screwed your boyfriend), or they hire private detectives.
Guess what, boys and girls, the scouts don't hire detectives (They don't care that much). Further, you can always lie when questioned, and if that hurts you poor feewings, then I personally hope that you die a horrible, burning death of burning.
Now, if they had a policy that was forbidding non-Christians, you'd have a point. If they were hiring people to poke around and look for proof of what (or who) you do, you'd have a point. If they were banning "darkies" or "kikes" or "David Letterman" you'd have a point.
However, they aren't, so get the fuck over yourselves and find something else to whine about. I understand that there are wage slaves being abused in China, check that one out.

http://q.queso.com/archives/001717


:rolleyes: Come on guys, you senators can make up a better bullshit rider to override the courts...

Actually, it's in compliance with the courts.

By shifting budgeting authority over the Jamboree, to that of the Defense Secretary; it no longer can meet the neccessiatate requirements of the Lemon test. Being a case-basis decision, by an officer; as opposed to a congressional action.

There is no "over-riding" going on here.

First of all everybody get a grip. The Boy Scouts is a good organization that teaches real values such as leadership, independence and charity. The camp I go to yearly has a real sense of community and family.

As a member of the BSA I can say that we ARE NOT affiliated with any specific religion. I've known Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and many others. As far as the issue on homosexuality goes; it is only a matter of time before that issue is settled once and for all in favor of the gay population, whether it be from external or internal pressure (MANY members believe that gays should be allowed in, and the counsils LISTEN).

I hate it when people degrade this organization and villify those who are members. And I LOATHE it when the government labels us. We're not a "Christian" organization, and we are not your damn draftees!
Oh yeah

"The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." Boy Scouts of America, Bylaws.


Also on their membership form
:rolleyes:

Oh yeah

"The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God." Boy Scouts of America, Bylaws.


Also on their membership form
:rolleyes:
It depends on the troop, but sometimes the councils get involved...

My guess is about this is that the Boy Scouts are the ones who first made the argument that they are a religious organization. Religious minorities are a protected class under the Civil Rights Act, and the only exception is for religious organizations. So they really shot themselves in the foot on this one.

Really, they should just can the religious stuff and move into the modern world. It would be good for them and good for the kids.

I was in the BSA and was at best an agnostic and at worst an athiest and everyone knew it. Quite a few others were also agnostic. Most troops do not care about religious background... it is only those that hate the BSA that come up with this bull* about BSA and religion.



If they really don't care, why don't they take the religious test for employment out of their bylaws? They can still keep homos out if they want because homosexuals are not a protected class and aren't likely to be anytime soon. Then they wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. I would think that if the religious business weren't important, they would have changed their bylaws and avoided this lawsuit in the first place.

Really, they should just can the religious stuff and move into the modern world. It would be good for them and good for the kids.
They should can the religious stuff 'cause there's nothing about religion involved in International Scouting. Like I said before, my friends in Scouts came from at least five different faith groups; I would probably have qualified as an Agnostic according to what I've heard of BSA on this thread.

So although I could be a Boy Scout in my native country, I would be precluded from participating in the activities of BSA - or, now that I'm an adult, I would be precluded from participating as a group leader or otherwise assisting in facilitating group activities.

What is it about, scouting, or is it instead about tribalism?

They should can the religious stuff 'cause there's nothing about religion involved in International Scouting. Like I said before, my friends in Scouts came from at least five different faith groups; I would probably have qualified as an Agnostic according to what I've heard of BSA on this thread.

So although I could be a Boy Scout in my native country, I would be precluded from participating in the activities of BSA - or, now that I'm an adult, I would be precluded from participating as a group leader or otherwise assisting in facilitating group activities.

What is it about, scouting, or is it instead about tribalism?
Again this is in their bylaws and on their adult application form

"The Boy Scouts of America maintain that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing his obligation to God."


No they are not religious group at all … even if you could argue it is non denominational

In a strange way, this appears to lay the groundwork for the "Bush Youth" movement.

They should can the religious stuff 'cause there's nothing about religion involved in International Scouting. Like I said before, my friends in Scouts came from at least five different faith groups; I would probably have qualified as an Agnostic according to what I've heard of BSA on this thread.

So although I could be a Boy Scout in my native country, I would be precluded from participating in the activities of BSA - or, now that I'm an adult, I would be precluded from participating as a group leader or otherwise assisting in facilitating group activities.

What is it about, scouting, or is it instead about tribalism?
Yeah, I hate it when scouting becomes politics. Scouting should be about camping, tying knots, doing good deeds, and having fun in the out of doors and not about making sure everyone has a faith and isn't homosexual. The objective of scouting seems to have gotten pretty skewed over time.
The extreme safety issues are understandable, but partisan politics shouldn't be part of scouting.

Yeah, I hate it when scouting becomes politics. Scouting should be about camping, tying knots, doing good deeds, and having fun in the out of doors and not about making sure everyone has a faith and isn't homosexual. The objective of scouting seems to have gotten pretty skewed over time.
The extreme safety issues are understandable, but partisan politics shouldn't be part of scouting.
Absolutely I went to eagle myself and enjoyed myself the whole time …
What boy scouting should be about is having a safe constructive and educational activity group

Absolutely I went to eagle myself and enjoyed myself the whole time …
What boy scouting should be about is having a safe constructive and educational activity group
I never made it to eagle, but I don't regret it. I had fun while I was at it and that's all that really mattered to me.

The two Scout troops I was in when I was younger made you swear alliegence "to God and to the Queen", and had a prayer and saluted the Union Flag at the start of every meeting. The first one I was in was also affiliated with the RAF, and we got RAF people coming and checking on us every now and then.

That's pretty standard for Scouting in the UK.

ive been invovled in the scouts ever since i was born, as my mum and dad are both leaders. i have always found that having to do all the formal stuff about 'god', queen and country always turned people off these things, they are seen as an embuggerance which has to be got over with quickly.

i think ive come across one group like yours that was affiliated with the forces, and i have to say we laughed at them for being squares. sorry.

plus, is it really still the 'boy' scouts in the US? seriously, scouts is about a hundred times more fun with girls. my unit has roughly 50-50 mix, its great.

but, it has to be said, that, if (IF!) the UK was to be invaded and occupied, youd find that scouts would have the skills to become guerillas. i know my unit would. the only problem would be that our few air rifles arent particularily deadly. but still to say they are a line of defence (defence against what?) is laughable.

If there had been girls in my scout troop, I might have stayed past the age of 14.

If there had been girls in my scout troop, I might have stayed past the age of 14.

you knows it.

If there had been girls in my scout troop, I might have stayed past the age of 14.14 is when Venture Scouting begins and Venturers are coed...

The whole definition of Private Orginization is that the orginization is privately funded. The BSA is funded by donations from members or other WILLING people. Maybe we should research before we open our mouth and make asses out of ourselves?

So you're saying they don't benifit from public funds? They don't hod meetings in school buildings or other such things?

Just pointing out what definitions mean, means little in the real world. Conservative means you support smaller government, yet conservative politicians are supporting big gov't these days. Maybe we should not be asses before accusing others of being asses?

So you're saying they don't benifit from public funds? They don't hod meetings in school buildings or other such things?

Just because the hold meetings in school buildings doesn't mean they receive public money. :rolleyes:

So you're saying they don't benifit from public funds? They don't hod meetings in school buildings or other such things?
GASP!
People using school property for things other than school!?
I know that my troop rented the gym, and occasionaly switched to the little lunchrooms in the 'pods' but we paid a modest rent (not what you would call full price, but enough to pay for the cleanup and have a bit leftover), and our principal was what I think of as an 'uber-liberal'.
He stoood outside the school one day wearing a 'Support legal euthenasia' billboard, and invited peopel from PETA to come to the school to talk about 'animal cruelty'.
Of course, this was back in the nineties when you could get away with that sort of thing.
The fact that this was an elementary school didnt seem to bother him much, I imagine he thought that the brainwashing was GOOD for us.

So you're saying they don't benifit from public funds? They don't hod meetings in school buildings or other such things?

Just pointing out what definitions mean, means little in the real world. Conservative means you support smaller government, yet conservative politicians are supporting big gov't these days. Maybe we should not be asses before accusing others of being asses?

Any private organization can benefit from use of public lands or buildings; religious or not.

If a local government allows the Red Cross, United Way, and all such other organizations to use public lands; then, by federal law; they are also required to allow Churches, congregations, religious institutions and the like to use those lands as well.

It's all or nothing.

Just because the hold meetings in school buildings doesn't mean they receive public money. :rolleyes:
Well in a way they do … they usually benefit from things such as maintenance, cleaning, electrical, gas (for heat).

I'm an Eagle Scout. I'm an atheist, and a flaming liberal.

Scouting is SUPPOSED to be a religious organization... but that is downplayed most of the time by Scoutleaders and Scouts who just want to have a good time. If the government wants to deny it funds, well, they certainly have reason too.

Chaplains? Prayers?

What the Hell?

oh no! what terrible atrocities! They allow kids to voluntarily pray to God! EGADS! Where's the ACLU, someone needs to squash this awful Christianity that some of the scouts exhibit!