NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you really need to fear it? Why run from cops if you have nothing to hide? The only people who ever got shot or beat by police are the ones who ran, or the ones who were extremely disrespectful. Ever heard of the "yes sir, no sir," policy? Respect the law, and they will respect you! I feel deep remorse for the man in Britain who was killed, but the question remains. Why did he run?

While I agree with this in principle, I can totally see how it could (and would) be abused.

Furthermore, I just assume they shoot the guy in the legs, so he doesn't die... he only trips and falls to the ground with a satisfying "plunk," whereupon he can be apprehended and questioned (and bitchslapped for being a moron and running from someone with a gun who says stop or I'll shoot.)

Do you really need to fear it? Why run from cops if you have nothing to hide? The only people who ever got shot or beat by police are the ones who ran, or the ones who were extremely disrespectful. Ever heard of the "yes sir, no sir," policy? Respect the law, and they will respect you! I feel deep remorse for the man in Britain who was killed, but the question remains. Why did he run?


Because you risk hitting somebody who has nothing to do with the incident. So, yeah, open fire, and hope you hit the right target or it doesn't blow through him to strike a bystander, all because someone ran.

Shoot to kill, like internment without trial, didn't work particularly well in Northern Ireland. Why should it work now?

Why doesn't the government learn from past mistakes?

As a former NI Special Branch Officer said, in reference to shoot to kill, "If you alienate people you can hand the terrorists a long-term support base from which to operate."


And why did they need to shoot a man (who they had pinned to the ground) 8 times?

I feel deep remorse for the man in Britain who was killed

Heh. If you're making this thread, I sincerely doubt it.

but the question remains. Why did he run?
Probably not for an offence worthy of the death sentence - especially in a country where there is no death sentence.

The only people who ever got shot or beat by police are the ones who ran, or the ones who were extremely disrespectful.

Bitter experience from Northern Ireland shows this to be a false statement.

They shoot to kill because a terrorist could at any moment detonate a bomb and kill a lot of people, but he obviously can't if he's dead.

They shoot to kill because a terrorist could at any moment detonate a bomb and kill a lot of people, but he obviously can't if he's dead.

...unless he is equipped with a dead man's handle.

Sometimes people run from the law because they're mentally handicapped by something and they don't know why they're being chased by a bunch of loud sirens and flashing lights. They just didn't take their medicine that morning, which is unfortunately, hard to control.

Trying to shoot someone in the arms or legs is all well and good, but those who express such ideas are very unfamiliar with handguns. The movie stunts of holding your gun sideways and getting headshots at 50m with snap shooting is a load of bull. Due to thier short barrel and small sight radius, handguns are very ineffective for engaging targets out past 15m. When in a stressful situation, this is reduced even further. When engaging a target with a handgun, your job is to immediately incapacitate the perp. Unfortunately, this involves hitting them 'center-mass,' i.e. the torso, and generally severely wounds the perpetrator. Bullets work by causing bleeding and hydro-static shock; the body responds to the immense trauma and loss of blood, incapacitating them through severe wounds. If you try and hit a smaller target, such as the legs, you greatly increase your chance of missing the target and hitting an innocent beyond them, which is a big no-no.

I do not think someone should be shot at for running, but this was definetely a stressful situation and those officers had mere seconds to analyze the situation and to act, while we (who were not there) have an eternity to debate over it. Perhaps they thought he was going to detonate another bomb, I don't know. The fact remains that an innocent man died because a bad situation got out of hand. I really do not know that I would have reacted differently, given the circumstances. Really hard to say.

Probably not for an offence worthy of the death sentence - especially in a country where there is no death sentence.

Oh please, stupidity is always worthy of death. :D
(Try and discern if I'm kidding or not, 'cause I certainly can't tell.)

Trying to shoot someone in the arms or legs is all well and good, but those who express such ideas are very unfamiliar with handguns.

I'm aware of the difficulties, but given the choice between killing and missing... well, they could've at least shot him in the butt instead.

...It's a tough situation. The bottom line is, LISTEN TO THE MAN WITH THE GUN!

When engaging a target with a handgun, your job is to immediately incapacitate the perp.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but until conviction in trial by a jury of their peers the correct term is 'suspect' not 'perp'/'perpetrator', no?

I do not think someone should be shot at for running, but this was definetely a stressful situation and those officers had mere seconds to analyze the situation and to act, while we (who were not there) have an eternity to debate over it.

Having said that, do I pity the poor fuck that made the wrong call and pulled the trigger? Yup.

...unless he is equipped with a dead man's handle.
Which any intelligent terrorist would be. They aren't complex to make.

However, if he does, the entire situation's a bit irrelevent, because that bomb is going to go, like it or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but until conviction in trial by a jury of their peers the correct term is 'suspect' not 'perp'/'perpetrator', no?



Having said that, do I pity the poor fuck that made the wrong call and pulled the trigger? Yup.

Sure. Please substitute 'suspect' for 'perp.' My bad, thanks for fixing that semantic misnomer.

Which any intelligent terrorist would be. They aren't complex to make.

You would think so, wouldn't you? However, it actually seems to have been a surprisingly fairly rarely used device compared to standard methods of controlling a detonation. Mind you, the failure of the blasts on the 14th appear to suggest that Mainland UK homegrown bombers are so far less technically competent than those found elsewhere.

You would think so, wouldn't you? However, it actually seems to have been a surprisingly fairly rarely used device compared to standard methods of controlling a detonation. Mind you, the failure of the blasts on the 14th appear to suggest that Mainland UK homegrown bombers are so far less technically competent than those found elsewhere.
Unless it was a bluff, and they did it just to scare everyone. Possible.

I'm aware of the difficulties, but given the choice between killing and missing... well, they could've at least shot him in the butt instead.

...It's a tough situation. The bottom line is, LISTEN TO THE MAN WITH THE GUN!

Pelvis is a great place to shoot someone to immobilize them, but again, you shoot at what you can hit. Go shoot a handgun sometime, you will see what I mean. I have been shooting them for years and I still suprise myself sometimes by what I don't hit.

Pelvis is a great place to shoot someone to immobilize them, but again, you shoot at what you can hit. Go shoot a handgun sometime, you will see what I mean. I have been shooting them for years and I still suprise myself sometimes by what I don't hit.
...he was pinned to the ground. They shot him 7 times in the head and once in the shoulder.

Unless it was a bluff, and they did it just to scare everyone. Possible.

An eyewitness report of one failed detonation that I read would suggest that this theory would only work if they had planned out that they also mime* shock and surprise at the fact that their bombs failed to explode properly. Count that as me in the 'fairly dubious' column here.



*Hmmm. Al-Qaeda backed fundamentalist mime training camps?

Pelvis is a great place to shoot someone to immobilize them, but again, you shoot at what you can hit. Go shoot a handgun sometime, you will see what I mean. I have been shooting them for years and I still suprise myself sometimes by what I don't hit.

Alright! Alright!
I'm just playing liberal's advocate.

I personally think people who get shot by the police for running from them should get a joint Darwin award. It's one less mouth to feed, and it's not like the guy was going to do anything important in his life (given his inability to make proper life/death decisions.)

It's one less mouth to feed, and it's not like the guy was going to do anything important in his life (given his inability to make proper life/death decisions.)


Alright, pal, stand up and tell that to his mother.

Alright, pal, stand up and tell that to his mother.

I will. *rises*

"Hey you stupid bitch, didn't you ever teach your son to listen to the police, or better yet, listen to people pointing guns at you? Yah, it's your fault! Now keep crying and learn from your mistakes the next time you try and raise a kid!"

If deaf people can manage not to get shot when they are stopped by the police, so should anyone else. And if the guy was retarded, he wasn't fit for survival in the first place, now was he? That said, he was neither, so he only has himself to blame.

Ok, I thought this was pretty obvious:

Given that there have been 3 successful bombings and 3 failed attempts at bombing subway trains in London in the last few weeks, the last thing you should do is run away from cops and try and board a subway.

Either he wasn't too bright, or wasn't keeping up with his current affairs, but either way the police did their duty to protect the public. And those officers risked their own lives by following what they thought was a suicide bomber into an enclosed space.

Yes he was shot in the head - anti terrorist police in the UK have been trained to shot for the head by suicide bomb experts from Israel where they found this has the highest chance of preventing an explosion from occuring.

Yes he was shot in the head - anti terrorist police in the UK have been trained to shot for the head by suicide bomb experts from Israel where they found this has the highest chance of preventing an explosion from occuring.

Alright then. Good point. Forget my last part about trying not to shoot to kill.

The point is, 1 idiot's life vs. 1+ civilian lives isn't debatable.

Source? (If that's the truth, then I retract my crude statements.)

"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him."
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stm)

And it was later found to be 8 shots;

Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, at Stockwell Tube station, south London, on Friday.
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm)

It's been all over the news.

It's been all over the news.

Yes, I just wasn't aware that he was pinned down first, then shot... (I stopped listening when I heard he ran from police.) On that note, is there a definitive yes or no about whether they presented themselves as policemen?

While I agree with this in principle, I can totally see how it could (and would) be abused.

Furthermore, I just assume they shoot the guy in the legs, so he doesn't die... he only trips and falls to the ground with a satisfying "plunk," whereupon he can be apprehended and questioned (and bitchslapped for being a moron and running from someone with a gun who says stop or I'll shoot.)


AAAAAA...

Shooting in legs bad... bad, bad. Too many action movies for you!

Gee! I'll shoot at the most difficult place to hit on a running person, which happens to also be the sight of the largest artery in the body, so that they will go down, have plenty of time to activate the bomb if they are a suicide bomber, and whether they are or aren't, will die screaming in mortal agony as their lifeblood draines out of them for about 30 seconds.

Real humane.


It's understandable that the guy ran--at first. A bunch of strange men with guns show up and start yelling, and the fight-or-flight reflex is pretty likely to kick in. On the other hand, once he had run for a few seconds and his head started to clear, he should have figured out that "Police!" sounds an aweful lot like "Policia!"...

This one is guilty of being terminally stupid, I'm afraid.



EDIT: Also note that he wasn't shot for running. People that are shot for running do not live long enough to go from the street, into the station, vault over the ticket barrier, run to a train, get on, trip, go down, have the cops go in after him shouting for the people in the train to get out, have one jump on him, think "holy damn, I just tackled a bomb!" and start unloading.

They tend to get shot while they're... well... running.

Yes, I just wasn't aware that he was pinned down first, then shot... (I stopped listening when I heard he ran from police.) On that note, is there a definitive yes or no about whether they presented themselves as policemen?
It's believed he ran because he hadn't renewed his visa and was worried about getting caught....not realising they were anti-terrorism police.

Shooting in legs bad... bad, bad. Too many action movies for you!

Hey, enough with that accusation. Just because legs are thin and move, doesn't mean there isn't a consitent area that can be hit. Besides, I changed my position on [possible alternative courses of action] numerous times, though my underlying belief that the guy was a moron (which coincides with yours) has been the same.

Don't you need citizenship to operate a business in Britain..? I thought he was an electrician...

It's believed he ran because he hadn't renewed his visa and was worried about getting caught....not realising they were anti-terrorism police.

When was the last time immigration brandished weapons shouting violently?

Hey, enough with that accusation. Just because legs are thin and move, doesn't mean there isn't a consitent area that can be hit. Besides, I changed my position on [possible alternative courses of action] numerous times, though my underlying belief that the guy was a moron (which coincides with yours) has been the same.


Sorry about the chiding tone.. still, shooting someone in the legs is 3 times as hard, doesn't prevent a bomb from being triggered if there's a bomb to trigger, and will still kill the person just as dead, unless *immediate* medical help is given.

When was the last time immigration brandished weapons shouting violently?
God knows. But then, if you're worried about losing your livelihood and being deported (and they were saying he was sending money back to Brazil to pay for his Dads cancer treatment)...someone comes at you shouting "police", you're gonna run.

Sounds alot like a tragic misunderstanding by Mr. Menezes.

It's believed he ran because he hadn't renewed his visa and was worried about getting caught....not realising they were anti-terrorism police

So then he was attempting to escape police because of his ILLEGAL residency. He was committing a criminal act of escape and got caught in a mixup. Sad, but not the cop's fault. Should've gotten his damn paperwork straight.

So then he was attempting to escape police because of his ILLEGAL residency. He was committing a criminal act of escape and got caught in a mixup. Sad, but not the cop's fault. Should've gotten his damn paperwork straight.
Looks like it, although he had been living in the UK perfectly legally for several years and seems he just 'forgot' to renew his visa.

So then he was attempting to escape police because of his ILLEGAL residency. He was committing a criminal act of escape and got caught in a mixup. Sad, but not the cop's fault. Should've gotten his damn paperwork straight.

Yes, that's an offense worthy of being executed for. :rolleyes:

Yes, that's an offense worthy of being executed for.

Hey, if this guy had given up without pulling all the damn acrobatics to flee the cops he may have been shipped back to Brazil but he might still be alive.

Moral of the story: When you do something illegal, it can get ya in trouble.

Yes, that's an offense worthy of being executed for. :rolleyes:

No, making the cops think you have a bomb, ignoring as the cops escalate the force, running into a metro station a few days after a terrorist attack on the metro, and running into a train full of passengers--behaving exactly as a suicide bomber would behave if cornered--is highly likely to get you killed in a mistaken act of self-defence and defence of the citizens.

Sorry about the chiding tone.. still, shooting someone in the legs is 3 times as hard, doesn't prevent a bomb from being triggered if there's a bomb to trigger, and will still kill the person just as dead, unless *immediate* medical help is given.

No, I know. It's just that I had already gotten chewed up several times before... and had already conceded that I didn't know what I was talking about. That's why I changed my idea to the butt, then changed it once again to agreeing that the headshot was the best possible choice.

Yes, that's an offense worthy of being executed for. :rolleyes:

For someone with Machiavelli in their sig, you sure are idealistic. (It's alright, I have that duality problem as well.) But the bottom line is, when you have to choose between your life and your livelihood, there's not much debate.

No, making the cops think you have a bomb, ignoring as the cops escalate the force, running into a metro station a few days after a terrorist attack on the metro, and running into a train full of passengers--behaving exactly as a suicide bomber would behave if cornered--is highly likely to get you killed in a mistaken act of self-defence and defence of the citizens.

Let's see... the cop in question waited til the suspect was on board a the train full of passengers before hauling him down and shooting him point-blank eight times?! Never mind that he could have blown himself to bits at any other point if he was a a terrorist. Oh yeah, this cop is frickin' hero, deserves a medal and all that. :rolleyes:

Let's see... the cop in question waited til the suspect was on board a the train full of passengers before hauling him down and shooting him point-blank eight times?! Never mind that he could have blown himself to bits at any other point if he was a a terrorist. Oh yeah, this cop is frickin' hero, deserves a medal and all that. :rolleyes:

That, I speculate, is a side-effect of the fight-or-flight reflex. It is what I refer to as the "holy fuck, I just tackled a bomb!" reflex. No hero, no villain, no medals. Just one innocent--now tragically dead--Brazilian who made a lot of really bad decisions and some poor fuzz who's going to burn for them because he was keyed up and thought the guy was a terrorist.

Let's see... the cop in question waited til the suspect was on board a the train full of passengers before hauling him down and shooting him point-blank eight times?! Never mind that he could have blown himself to bits at any other point if he was a a terrorist. Oh yeah, this cop is frickin' hero, deserves a medal and all that. :rolleyes:

That, I speculate, is a side-effect of the fight-or-flight reflex. It is what I refer to as the "holy damn, I just tackled a bomb!" reflex. No hero, no villain, no medals. Just one innocent--now tragically dead--Brazilian who made a lot of really bad decisions and some poor fuzz who's going to burn for them because he was keyed up and thought the guy was a terrorist.

...he was pinned to the ground. They shot him 7 times in the head and once in the shoulder.

Well, that changes things significantly. Thanks for pointing that out, I have not followed it closely enough.

Well, that changes things significantly. Thanks for pointing that out, I have not followed it closely enough.

(See, I wasn't the only one to miss that point.) :p

I will. *rises*

"Hey you stupid bitch, didn't you ever teach your son to listen to the police, or better yet, listen to people pointing guns at you? Yah, it's your fault! Now keep crying and learn from your mistakes the next time you try and raise a kid!"

If deaf people can manage not to get shot when they are stopped by the police, so should anyone else. And if the guy was retarded, he wasn't fit for survival in the first place, now was he? That said, he was neither, so he only has himself to blame.

Come to Brazil and do that, then, why don't you? When the people lynch you in here for your stupid, insensitive remarks to a woman that lost her son to policial incompetence, I'll be glad to send your mother a letter calling her a stupid bitch for not teaching you to have respect for the dead, among other things. For that matter, I REALLY doubt your statement would be the same if YOUR countryman had died. Mine would.

I must agree... there is a certain amount of tragedy in any innocent person's death. To a degree, it is good to laugh at it; as Robert Heinlein puts it in Stranger in a Strange Land, we make light of the terrible to make it less frightening and sad; we laugh at Tom and Jerry beating on one another and chuckle at Darwin Awards. But when it comes beyond a certain point--for instance, thinking about the personality of the deceased or talking to a next of kin, it is important to think of the person that died as a person, not a cartoon.

Vão-se foder meus cabrões filhos da puta estoiro-vos os miolos se não fizerem o que eu digo.

Did you understand? Probably a brazilian person also doesnt understand the same in english by default.

Probably a brazilian person thinks that 18ºC is too cold to walk on t-shirt. Probably he thinks that if people are shouting at him something he doesnt make out it could as well be arab and a terroriist.

What I dont understand is policemen who cannot difference an arab from someone who doesnt have an hooligan face with red hair and football violence in their pockets. He didnt look any arab. He was shot before he tried to escape and he was brutally murdered by the most terrorist people of them all: BRITS...
Theyb invented the stuff that made me afraid to walk away from home and watch them lose with my country: PORTUGAL. I loved their whining hooligan faces.

Blair is worse than Bin Laden. 2TERRORISTS

I will. *rises*

"Hey you stupid bitch, didn't you ever teach your son to listen to the police, or better yet, listen to people pointing guns at you? Yah, it's your fault! Now keep crying and learn from your mistakes the next time you try and raise a kid!"

Three words for you: "You callous ....*"


* substitute whatever technically non-flaming noun here as you consider appropriate. It is unlikely to fully express my disdain for people that consider running away from police (not a criminal offense unless they are attempting to arrest you at the time) an offence punishable by death.

So then he was attempting to escape police because of his ILLEGAL residency. He was committing a criminal act of escape and got caught in a mixup. Sad, but not the cop's fault. Should've gotten his damn paperwork straight.

The man ran... why? we don't know. It may have been because of another criminal act - illegal residency, past shop-lifting perhaps? - or maybe he's had bad experiences with police before... maybe some other reason... Its ridiculous to suggest that running from the police (because you may or may not have committed a criminal act) justifies you being gunned down.

Vão-se foder meus cabrões filhos da puta estoiro-vos os miolos se não fizerem o que eu digo.

Did you understand? Probably a brazilian person also doesnt understand the same in english by default.

The man has been widely reported as having "excellent" English, and so this point doesn't actually hold.

BTW I would prefer that every british heretic would burn at the stake than any other good cathollic son died because of the stupid war between the mohameds blasphems and the henrys heretics

BTW I would prefer that every british heretic would burn at the stake than any other good cathollic son died because of the stupid war between the mohameds blasphems and the henrys heretics

Take your trolling elsewhere: we ain't going to bite here, pal. The deaths of 50+ people in London are not an object for your casual amusement.

In a stressful situation my english is just as good as your portuguese.

Its a diplomatic scandal and I would back Brazil if they nuked London. WW 1 started for less than that.

Actually if I'm not mistaken the officers that were chasing him were plain-clothed. I don't know about you, but if some crazed men were running after me I'd run too.

In a stressful situation my english is just as good as your portuguese.

Its a diplomatic scandal and I would back Brazil if they nuked London. WW 1 started for less than that.

Not only we would NOT kill more innocent people for him, not only it'd be a REAL stupid thing to do, not only Brazil has a self-defence clause, not only Brazil has no nukes, we also are not crazy.

Personally the controversy over the shoot to kill policy confuses me. Here in the US, police officers are trained to shoot to kill. I'm not familiar with Britain's police forces, but are they trained to shoot to injure?

In America, if a suspect runs they're tackled and usually get beat up because they continue to resist. If a suspect has any sort of weapon and poses a threat to anyone, civilian or officer, they can get shot. Of course they have investigations in the even of a killed suspect.

I probably sound very ignorant of other cultures, but... I'd really like to learn about other nations.


EDIT: I know most police in the US carry .40 caliber sidearms (Glock is the most popular among officers I've spoken with). I've heard British officers (and quite a bit of Europe) carry 9mm. Is this true?

Take your trolling elsewhere: we ain't going to bite here, pal. The deaths of 50+ people in London are not an object for your casual amusement.

So one brazilian is worth 50 londoners. I didnt know of the exchange rate.

Anyway i respect the people who died regardless of nationality. But all of the brits are to blame for their war whereas the brazilian guy isnt. He never voted Blair. The point is just that britain enforces after years of respectful democratic police the principles of good old GESTAPO. Better dead than dangerous. Bin Laden 1 Democracy 0. Good luck

Actually if I'm not mistaken the officers that were chasing him were plain-clothed. I don't know about you, but if some crazed men were running after me I'd run too.

You're right.... It was revealed Monday that the 27-year-old Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes had been shot in the head eight times by plain-clothes policemen last Friday in Stockwell Tube Station.

I wonder how this effects the opinions of people posting on this thread...

So one brazilian is worth 50 londoners. I didnt know of the exchange rate.

Nope: he was included in that figure. My point was that the bombings in the London are not an appropriate pretext for arguing whether Joe Public requires a Priest or Religious apparatus to mediate between him and God or not, in other words, takes your Roman Cathoplic/Protestant trolling elsewhere.

Anyway i respect the people who died regardless of nationality. But all of the brits are to blame for their war whereas the brazilian guy isnt. He never voted Blair.

Checklist:

Am I am 'Brit': Yup.
Did I vote Blair: Nope.
Did the Labour party stand in my constituency: Nope.
Would I have voted for them if they did: Nope.
DId I protest the invasion of Iraq: Yup.
Did I watch my friends get baton charged by the cops for doing so: Yup.
Dif I protest the War on Iraq in 1991? Yup.

How the fuck am I responsible for these stupid fucking war when I protested it to the best of my abilities?

You're right.... It was revealed Monday that the 27-year-old Brazilian Jean Charles de Menezes had been shot in the head eight times by plain-clothes policemen last Friday in Stockwell Tube Station.

I wonder how this effects the opinions of people posting on this thread...

I don't think it'll change. The pro-innocent-death people here will keep on acting like they were uniformed policemen and Jean was running and screaming "Allahu Akbar".

Vão-se foder meus cabrões filhos da puta estoiro-vos os miolos se não fizerem o que eu digo.

Because "HALT! Police!", "ARRET! Police!", "DETER! Policia!" "HALT! Politzie!"
are so different from one another that they are impossible to understand...