NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, I know most people hate getting hit up on the street by beggars. There's the whole "they're lazy ass bums drinking and smoking crack living on welfare (eherm, which they actually don't collect)" But most bums I know (I have a few friends who are) only use part of their money to buy booze, and usually crack is too expensive to get without sexual favors and stealing. Not that they can get another job on their own, not having an address makes them unable to acquire employment, something which people don't know.

But anyways, it seems as though bums provide people an essential service in return for money. It's different for some people and different for others. For some people, giving money to bums strokes their ego and makes them feel good about themselves for a short period of time, an essential service if you need a good lift in your day. For others, bums are people to feel sorry for so that their life doesn't seem so horribly wretched, what with their boring job and meaningless existence (come on, it's not like many of us are really necessary, think, if you weren't born, would the world be so much different?) For others, like myself, they give the wonderful service of getting to be pissed off by capitalism, cops (who like searching bums in my town, as well as confiscating their blankets, knives and things) and libertarians, or generally those assholes who yell at them to get a job, even though that would be impossible without an address.

So with all these essential services provided to the community, Begging should be thought of as a wholly legitimate job, because they are paid to make people feel some shred of emotion that wouldn't normally occupy their day.

O.k.

What, no opinion on it? You must not get asked very often.

What, no opinion on it? You must not get asked very often.
Nope. I live in the suburbs.

And I don't go to downtown Los Angeles enough to experience beggers.

if it's a job, shouldn't they be getting taxed?

I don't think it is an essential service - I can look at a whole host of different people and feel good about myself after a quick evaluation (especially just from looking at the posts of a few far-right wingers here on the forums).

Although I don't look down on the homeless (even those addicted to drugs) because there are countless reasons why they are where they are.

if it's a job, shouldn't they be getting taxed?


Technically they're paid under the table, self-employed, whatever, in any event, the only service the government benefits them with is clean streets. And the rude cops balances that one out.

I should also point out that not having an address won't preclude anyone from getting work. There are temporary employment agencies where someone can do construction work, for example, and get paid cash at the end of the day. Also, if anyone is really hard up for an address, they can go to their local post office and get a P.O. box for next to nothing.

Legitimate bums are one thing; scammers are another entirely. Far too many of the most pitiful bums you see on the streets actually have decent residences and make good tax-free incomes from their "job."

I don't think it is an essential service - I can look at a whole host of different people and feel good about myself after a quick evaluation (especially just from looking at the posts of a few far-right wingers here on the forums).

Although I don't look down on the homeless (even those addicted to drugs) because there are countless reasons why they are where they are.


And none of them are exclusively their own fault. At least from what I've seen. I don't look down on them either, I think they're totally badass, it takes a whole different skill set to survive on $10 a day.

if it's a job, shouldn't they be getting taxed?
Where they gonna send the bill? I'm pretty sure the USPS doesn't deliver mail to "under the Exit 119A overpass."

Where they gonna send the bill? I'm pretty sure the USPS doesn't deliver mail to "under the Exit 119A overpass."

lol

I don't really know 'cause I've never tried. :-D

Besides, my point was that they're not really providing a service, not that they should be taxed.

Legitimate bums are one thing; scammers are another entirely. Far too many of the most pitiful bums you see on the streets actually have decent residences and make good tax-free incomes from their "job."


If you deal with them enough, then you'll be able to point out the differences. In any event, the scammers still sell you good feelings about yourself.

The most I've heard of a homeless person make in a day is about $100. Most aren't as active as those are (with kids as props and things like that). My friends did a test one day, and they managed to go away with $40 for 8 hours worth of work. And that's in Portland, the city with the most well-paid homeless population.

And none of them are exclusively their own fault. At least from what I've seen. I don't look down on them either, I think they're totally badass, it takes a whole different skill set to survive on $10 a day.

lol @ totally badass! :D

Actually, I had heard a story about this guy that left his whole life behind, job, family, bank account to live on the streets. He had a winning lottery ticket or something and when they finally located him and tried to give him the money he refused. I have a poor memory and can't remember teh details or if I read this as news or heard it second hand so I cant say if it's true.

Legitimate bums are one thing; scammers are another entirely. Far too many of the most pitiful bums you see on the streets actually have decent residences and make good tax-free incomes from their "job."
Like the woman who sits in Belfast city centre of a late afternoon in a perfect business suit...

lol

I don't really know 'cause I've never tried. :-D

Besides, my point was that they're not really providing a service, not that they should be taxed.


They are though, for 50 cents you can feel better about yourself for a few hours. That sounds like an essential service to me.

If you deal with them enough, then you'll be able to point out the differences. In any event, the scammers still sell you good feelings about yourself.

The most I've heard of a homeless person make in a day is about $100. Most aren't as active as those are (with kids as props and things like that). My friends did a test one day, and they managed to go away with $40 for 8 hours worth of work. And that's in Portland, the city with the most well-paid homeless population.

that's an interesting experiment. do you know what day of the week and what hours he worked? can you speak to where he located himself, or how he presented himself? i'm very curious to know.

They are though, for 50 cents you can feel better about yourself for a few hours. That sounds like an essential service to me.

I dispute that feeling better about yourself for a few hours is essential to anything.

I should also point out that not having an address won't preclude anyone from getting work. There are temporary employment agencies where someone can do construction work, for example, and get paid cash at the end of the day. Also, if anyone is really hard up for an address, they can go to their local post office and get a P.O. box for next to nothing.


Without an active phone line and transportation though, jobs are severely limited. Not to mention the lack of showers is limiting. In any event, it's a royal pain for a homeless person to get a job, it is *possible*, technically, but it is very difficult.

I dispute that feeling better about yourself for a few hours is essential to anything.


It's like any other service. People sell ice cream so that your taste buds feel good for a few minutes and so you get less hungry. A better opinion of yourself may prevent you from, oh, I don't know, committing suicide or something. In any event, there is an exchange of one form of goods (money) for another (good vibes). If people are willing to pay for good vibes, then these bums are definitely performing a service (whether it's essential or not depends on who is asking, the Department of Human Services isn't performing an essential service to you unless you're going to get food stamps, but they are still considered an essential service).

It's like any other service. People sell ice cream so that your taste buds feel good for a few minutes and so you get less hungry. A better opinion of yourself may prevent you from, oh, I don't know, committing suicide or something. In any event, there is an exchange of one form of goods (money) for another (good vibes). If people are willing to pay for good vibes, then these bums are definitely performing a service (whether it's essential or not depends on who is asking, the Department of Human Services isn't performing an essential service to you unless you're going to get food stamps, but they are still considered an essential service).

I respectfully disagree.

It's like any other service. People sell ice cream so that your taste buds feel good for a few minutes and so you get less hungry. A better opinion of yourself may prevent you from, oh, I don't know, committing suicide or something. In any event, there is an exchange of one form of goods (money) for another (good vibes). If people are willing to pay for good vibes, then these bums are definitely performing a service (whether it's essential or not depends on who is asking, the Department of Human Services isn't performing an essential service to you unless you're going to get food stamps, but they are still considered an essential service).


They can do stuff like Bum Fights (http://www.bumfights.com/) too

that's an interesting experiment. do you know what day of the week and what hours he worked? can you speak to where he located himself, or how he presented himself? i'm very curious to know.


He did it on a Monday, between 10 AM and 4 PM in front of a McDonald's that has a significant amount of foot traffic. He dressed dirty, put a cup on the ground, and made a sign out of cardboard that said "Hungry and Poor". The results are interesting. More young men gave than any other group. More older women complained and bitched than any other group. One woman got out of her SUV with a Bush/Cheney 2004 sticker on the back and berated him for about 15 minutes, which proceeded to start a heated argument between a young liberal and her, after which he gave my friend $5.00. Sounds to me like an interesting job!

He did it on a Monday, between 10 AM and 4 PM in front of a McDonald's that has a significant amount of foot traffic. He dressed dirty, put a cup on the ground, and made a sign out of cardboard that said "Hungry and Poor". The results are interesting. More young men gave than any other group. More older women complained and bitched than any other group. One woman got out of her SUV with a Bush/Cheney 2004 sticker on the back and berated him for about 15 minutes, which proceeded to start a heated argument between a young liberal and her, after which he gave my friend $5.00. Sounds to me like an interesting job!


Awesome.

I respectfully disagree.


Eh, I won't change your mind. That's your opinion.

If the shills foolish enough to waste their money on bums want to do so more power to them. It's not my money so why should I care? But as far as it being a useful service I'd like to disagree. The lady who calls me and asks ifI want to buy aluminum siding, new windows, insurance, ad nauseum is not in my opinion providing a useful service. She's a nusiance. Same goes for the guy harrasing me when I walk through town to buy some smokes or catch a show.
As to them being helpless to alter their position nonsense. I lost my shirt on a move west a few years back. I came back to the midwest and arrived in a Greyhound station with $27 US and a large duffle bag. Day labor does'nt care if you have an adress so I alternated three weekdays at the labor pool and two filing apps and doing interveiws. Within a couple of months I was working full-time eventually salaried and had a little apartment all my own. I live downtown and so I see the bums constantly. They are in general working within 3 blocks of a liquor store.
Once in 1994 I was on my way to the second week at a new job. I got hit upbut the guy was clean and did'nt look hung over so I gave him some cash. ThenI gave him a bus schedule my name and my former employer's phone #. He never used anything but the cash. I saw him again two weeks ago on the same damn street.

Awesome.


I thought it was. And this is just an average day for these guys (from what I've seen of course) I'd like to try out that experiment. Use different variables, like asking people directly instead of saying "spare some change?" from the ground. Or what kinds of signs work better than others. I thought a "See what a great thing Capitalism is" might work well in my town.

If the shills foolish enough to waste their money on bums want to do so more power to them. It's not my money so why should I care? But as far as it being a useful service I'd like to disagree. The lady who calls me and asks ifI want to buy aluminum siding, new windows, insurance, ad nauseum is not in my opinion providing a useful service. She's a nusiance. Same goes for the guy harrasing me when I walk through town to buy some smokes or catch a show.
As to them being helpless to alter their position nonsense. I lost my shirt on a move west a few years back. I came back to the midwest and arrived in a Greyhound station with $27 US and a large duffle bag. Day labor does'nt care if you have an adress so I alternated three weekdays at the labor pool and two filing apps and doing interveiws. Within a couple of months I was working full-time eventually salaried and had a little apartment all my own. I live downtown and so I see the bums constantly. They are in general working within 3 blocks of a liquor store.
Once in 1994 I was on my way to the second week at a new job. I got hit upbut the guy was clean and did'nt look hung over so I gave him some cash. ThenI gave him a bus schedule my name and my former employer's phone #. He never used anything but the cash. I saw him again two weeks ago on the same damn street.


Yeah, that happens too. I got hit up by a lady who claimed she was trying to get enough money to spend the night at a ladies hostel, she said she had just gotten a job as well. I gave her $20. I met her a few days ago and she gave me the exact same spiel. She's a smart one, but I still felt angry about that.

I've also given out applications to an old job of mine which is similar to begging (canvassing, except I ask for money for charitable causes and fighting Bush) but they never came in for an interview.

The personal experience that changed my perspective took place in San Francisco. At the time, I was working next door to city hall, which is near a bunch of other state and federal buildings and about a block from a practically demilitarized zone. I decided to go in early one morning so I arrived at my building at around 7 am, but when I got there, I realized that I had forgotten my security card, so I couldn't get into the building until it opened to the public at 7:30 am. I lived almost an hour from work, so there was no way I was going back home. So I went across the street to a little kiosk that sold breakfast goodies like coffee and muffins and bought a delicious and freshly baked croissant.

So I was outside my building and had just barely started to eat my croissant, when this wirey guy in his early to mid 30s approached me and said, "please sir, I haven't eaten anything in a day and a half; could you spare $5 so I can go to Carl's Jr. (a fast food restaurant) and get something to eat?" The guy looked like a train wreck; his clothes were dirty, he was unshaven, etc. all the typical homeless stuff. I had seen the guy around panhandling, but that was my first actual interaction with him. I looked at him, then I looked at my croissant. I definitely didn't want him to be starved, so i extended my croissant to him and said, "all yours, m'man." He looked at me silently, then he looked at the croissant for a good 3 seconds, and said, "please sir, I haven't eaten anything for a day and a half; could you spare $5 so I can go to Carl's Jr. and get something to eat?"

Why don't I believe that money would have been used for food?

I thought it was. And this is just an average day for these guys (from what I've seen of course) I'd like to try out that experiment. Use different variables, like asking people directly instead of saying "spare some change?" from the ground. Or what kinds of signs work better than others. I thought a "See what a great thing Capitalism is" might work well in my town.

you'd get the communist vote, but you'd just piss everyone else off.

Legitimate bums are one thing; scammers are another entirely. Far too many of the most pitiful bums you see on the streets actually have decent residences and make good tax-free incomes from their "job."

I want some concrete proof of this urban myth.