NationStates Jolt Archive

The article that triggered that question in my mind can be found here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4719995.stm)


Man vandalises Hiroshima memorial

The protester chiselled out the Japanese character for "mistake"
A protester in Japan has been arrested after vandalising a memorial which commemorates the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima 60 years ago.

The man, who gave himself up to police, chiselled out a reference to Japan's "mistake" of waging war from the stone.

Takeo Shimazu, 27, told police he was a nationalist and asked why Japan should make an apology on its own monument. ...

So, being nationalistic and patriotic means, at least to this person, to refuse to have one's country's historical mistakes displayed in public and commemorated. Why?

Don't we have to take the good with the bad? If a person is proud of their country and, more importantly, to be part of this country, then that means this person only sees the positive aspects. After all, who would be proud of mistakes?
In consequence, this person must have a rather distorted view of the world in history and today...

Lest we forget it is not only Nationalism in Japan that causes a distorted picture of the world...

Lest we forget it is not only Nationalism in Japan that causes a distorted picture of the world...


In fact, according the morality test Nationalism is beside Fundementalism and beside Fascism.

I would say, the country with the most Nationalism is the United States. It's also has the highest degree of religious fundementalism too.. More than Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I don't know what it looks like on the inside, but on the outside it looks like a "Giant Christian Killing Machine willing to do with the will of God, and some maniac changes what God wants every other day."

No wonder why he has "Messianic Visions"

The article that triggered that question in my mind can be found here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4719995.stm)



So, being nationalistic and patriotic means, at least to this person, to refuse to have one's country's historical mistakes displayed in public and commemorated. Why?

Don't we have to take the good with the bad? If a person is proud of their country and, more importantly, to be part of this country, then that means this person only sees the positive aspects. After all, who would be proud of mistakes?
In consequence, this person must have a rather distorted view of the world in history and today...

I disagree. I regard patriotism as someone being proud of all the good things their country does, yet recognising the negative aspects and working to change them, and avoid similar mistakes in the future. There is no 'we're the best!' rubbish; it is more of a realistic view. Patriotism can thus be constructive and morale boosting. There's nothing at all wrong with a healthy amount of patriotism.

I regard nationalism as someone having a blind belief in the superiority of their country. Historically, the world's reigning superpower is typically home to a larger quantity of nationalists than other countries. These people view everything their country has ever done as great, and regards their country as the 'best'. They either refuse to accept that anything about their country is bad, and their country could go on a genocidal rampage in the name of Gargoloth the Martian Destroyer and they would still find no fault. Arrogance, narrow-mindedness and often even racism are their traditional features.

In fact, according the morality test Nationalism is beside Fundementalism and beside m.

I would say, the country with the most Nationalism is the United States. It's also has the highest degree of religious fundementalism too.. More than Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I don't know what it looks like on the inside, but on the outside it looks like a "Giant Christian Machine willing to do with the will of God, and some maniac changes what God wants every other day."

No wonder why he has "Messianic Visions"

Ok I guess I'm forced to respond to this. First of all, the United States no longer has the most Nationalism, not after Vietnam and the Left's war upon the American military. You said you don't know what its like on the inside, so I'll tell you: Nationalism is now frowned upon as if being proud of your country is the equivilent of jingoism every time and always, and again, I'm sorry if you don't like to hear this but its true, you can thank the Left for that pervading idea in American society today. Liberals go insane when you question their patriotism, yet they oppose national defense, the military, etc., but I digress.

To the author of this thread: That Japenese man has a distorted view of Nationalism and Patriotism. True Nationalism means that you support you country, but also that you accept its successes as well as its faults, and that you try and fix its flaws out of love for your nation. Now I know some Liberal is going to pounce and say thats what they are doing, but I will end that thought right now. There is a glaring difference between trying to change society and trying to undermine it. There is a difference between trying to change the military and trying to destroy it. There is a difference between trying to be fair to EVERYONE and subverting national defense because of political correctness.

You can agree with me, or you can disagree with me, but thats my two cents at least.

I disagree. I regard patriotism as someone being proud of all the good things their country does, yet recognising the negative aspects and working to change them, and avoid similar mistakes in the future. There is no 'we're the best!' rubbish; it is more of a realistic view. Patriotism can thus be constructive and morale boosting. There's nothing at all wrong with a healthy amount of patriotism.

I regard nationalism as someone having a blind belief in the superiority of their country. Historically, the world's reigning superpower is typically home to a larger quantity of nationalists than other countries. These people view everything their country has ever done as great, and regards their country as the 'best'. They either refuse to accept that anything about their country is bad, and their country could go on a genocidal rampage in the name of Gargoloth the Martian Destroyer and they would still find no fault. Arrogance, narrow-mindedness and often even are their traditional features.

I agreed with everything you wrote until that last paragraph. You are confusing Nationalism and Jingoism, and thats a fine line to tread.

Ok I guess I'm forced to respond to this. First of all, the United States no longer has the most Nationalism, not after Vietnam and the Left's war upon the American military. You said you don't know what its like on the inside, so I'll tell you: Nationalism is now frowned upon as if being proud of your country is the equivilent of jingoism every time and always, and again, I'm sorry if you don't like to hear this but its true, you can thank the Left for that pervading idea in American society today. Liberals go insane when you question their patriotism, yet they oppose national defense, the military, etc., but I digress.


Well, patriotism, nationalism and jingoism are more or less all frowned upon in Europe.
To be honest, the concepts keep puzzling me.

Well, patriotism, nationalism and jingoism are more or less all frowned upon in Europe.
To be honest, the concepts keep puzzling me.
i'm not surprised that you're confused, people are constantly renaming and redefiningthe various kinds of national pride.

Well, patriotism, nationalism and jingoism are more or less all frowned upon in Europe.
To be honest, the concepts keep puzzling me.
"Patriotism is the love to your own country, nationalism is the hatred of all others." Johannes Rau, former Federal President of Germany.

He brought it to the point. I had exactly the same definition before he said it, and I'm not sure whether to love him for making it that public or to hate him for having the same idea...
I don't think Patriotism or Nationalism make much sense when applied to history or international politics, but when it comes to international sporting events, denial that Brazil is going to cream Barbados isn't exactly all that out of place, is it? ;)

"Patriotism is the love to your own country, nationalism is the hatred of all others." Johannes Rau, former Federal President of Germany.

He brought it to the point. I had exactly the same definition before he said it, and I'm not sure whether to love him for making it that public or to hate him for having the same idea...
I don't think Patriotism or Nationalism make much sense when applied to history or international politics, but when it comes to international sporting events, denial that Brazil is going to cream Barbados isn't exactly all that out of place, is it? ;)


*lol
Isn't it cute how "patriotism" in Germany always refers to football/soccer, and very little else? ;)

*lol
Isn't it cute how "patriotism" in Germany always refers to football/soccer, and very little else? ;)We've got to be proud of SOMEthing! :D

We've got to be proud of SOMEthing! :D
it could be worse, you could be "patriotic" about a drink.

*looks inoccent*

it could be worse, you could be "patriotic" about a drink.

*looks inoccent*
Well, you can't be patriotic about something that only exists in Germany. By law, there's too many additives in a lot of foreign brewed drinks for them to be called beer in Germany.

Well, you can't be patriotic about something that only exists in Germany. By law, there's too many additives in a lot of foreign brewed drinks for them to be called beer in Germany.
the isle of mann has similar laws for it's beers.

i was making fun of the whole irish=guinness thing, but, point taken, the amount of chemicals in what we end up drinking makes our hangovers way worse. at least that's my excuse.

the isle of mann has similar laws for it's beers.

i was making fun of the whole irish=guinness thing, but, point taken, the amount of chemicals in what we end up drinking makes our hangovers way worse. at least that's my excuse.I personally don't like the taste of beer... :eek: Makes me rather un-German...

Well whilst we're on the subject of Germany, I'm German, and Im patriotic. I love the Fatherland. Im not ashamed of my country's history, i just believe we need to learn from it. I recognise the mistakes. I dont deny they happened. I know they did, and i try my best to make sure it cant happen again. After all it wasnt us personally who let our nationalism/patriotism get out of control, it was our fore fathers. And we've learnt from the mistake (At least i hope we have!)

Well whilst we're on the subject of Germany, I'm German, and Im patriotic. I love the Fatherland. Im not ashamed of my country's history, i just believe we need to learn from it. After all it wasnt us personally who let our nationalism/patriotism get out of control, it was our fore fathers. And we've learnt from the mistake (At least i hope we have!)Meh, there's always a couple unteachables out there...
On a side note, having two nationalities, I don't prefer one to the other, but I do prefer Germany to the US...

Meh, there's always a couple unteachables out there...
On a side note, having two nationalities, I don't prefer one to the other, but I do prefer Germany to the US...

Well, I'm German and emmigrated to Ireland...
No, I'm not patriotic. I don't see why I should love the place I happened to be born in more than the place I choose to live in, and as that is most likely going to change again in a few years it would make patriotism just too confusing. ;)

Meh, there's always a couple unteachables out there...
On a side note, having two nationalities, I don't prefer one to the other, but I do prefer Germany to the US...
Dem Deutschen Volke lol

Well, I'm German and emmigrated to Ireland...
No, I'm not patriotic. I don't see why I should love the place I happened to be born in more than the place I choose to live in, and as that is most likely going to change again in a few years it would make patriotism just too confusing. ;)Heh, I know the feeling. I've developed a similar sense of Continentism, if that's what feeling European would be called.

On a side note, are you feeling better today?

Well, I'm German and emmigrated to Ireland...
No, I'm not patriotic. I don't see why I should love the place I happened to be born in more than the place I choose to live in, and as that is most likely going to change again in a few years it would make patriotism just too confusing. ;)
I did the same but moved to Northern Ireland after the fall of the wall. But i still feel a certain pride and love for Germany

Heh, I know the feeling. I've developed a similar sense of Continentism, if that's what feeling European would be called.

On a side note, are you feeling better today?

A good deal, the jokes and pics helped a lot :D
But it's not bedtime yet, and that's when it normally hits me.

A good deal, the jokes and pics helped a lot :D
But it's not bedtime yet, and that's when it normally hits me.Good to hear! I think there were still a couple of additions to the list when you left, so just look at those if you're down tonight (or start a different thread).

I would say, the country with the most Nationalism is the United States. It's also has the highest degree of religious fundementalism too.. More than Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Now that is bullshit in it's purest form. Nobody here is executed for being gay, stop talking out of your ass.

And also, unlike in Japan, the bad spots in history are not glossed over. Asian cultures have a thing for looking the other way about bad things, they don't like to talk about it. WW II is basically glossed over and ignored. It's not like here we're told that the Spanish-American war was good.

the United States. It's also has the highest degree of religious fundementalism too.. More than Iran and Saudi Arabia.
*bullshit meter goes off*

Well, patriotism, nationalism and jingoism are more or less all frowned upon in Europe.
To be honest, the concepts keep puzzling me.
I also live in Ireland and patriotism is not frowned upon! It's not the same as nationalism, jingoism or imperialism. I am involved in politics because I am patriotic and I want to do what is best for my country. I don't want Ireland to become just another random country full of McDonalds, Wal-Mart and whatever American bullshit tries to get in. [/rant]

Ok I guess I'm forced to respond to this. First of all, the United States no longer has the most Nationalism, not after Vietnam and the Left's war upon the American military.
Are you trying to link up the American left with the North Vietnamese by proclaiming that the left "waged war" on America's military?

Liberals go insane when you question their patriotism, yet they oppose national defense, the military, etc., but I digress.

Firstly, liberals don't oppose national defense - for example, the very liberal member of this board, Keruvalia, is a veteran, as is Tekania.

Secondly, being militaristic is not the only way to be patriotic. Being a teacher or a doctor is just as patriotic as being a soldier. I could say that conservatives are unpatriotic because they oppose education, healthcare and don't care about their fellow countrymen.

...you try and fix its flaws out of love for your nation. Now I know some Liberal is going to pounce and say thats what they are doing, but I will end that thought right now. There is a glaring difference between trying to change society and trying to undermine it.
Mindless partisanship. There is nothing to suggest that liberals want to undermine society. Why do you capitalise the L... you're not Canadian are you?

*lol
Isn't it cute how "patriotism" in Germany always refers to football/soccer, and very little else? ;)
Yeah, what's that about? Why can't modern Germans accept that what the Nazis did is in no way their fault, and to be patriotic is not being a Nazi.

it could be worse, you could be "patriotic" about a drink.
lol, I usually drink Guinness because it's cheaper and nicer than other mainstream beers. But I have been in the totally ridiculous situation of being castigated for drinking a non-Irish beer ... really pathetic!

Well whilst we're on the subject of Germany, I'm German, and Im patriotic. I love the Fatherland. Im not ashamed of my country's history, i just believe we need to learn from it.
Patriotism is good, but I am concerned when you refer to it as "the Fatherland." :eek:

Are you trying to link up the American left with the North Vietnamese by proclaiming that the left "waged war" on America's military?

You missunderstand my point. What I meant was that during the Vietnam war Liberals attacked the American military through their speech and protests. They refused to accept the point that whether you agree with the said war or not, you still need to support the troops because they are risking their lives. Jane Fonda and the rest of the Hollywood "elites" refused to believe that, and amazingly it was a Democrat president who lost the war for us. You might remember him although they don't teach this in history, his name was L.B.J.? He sent tens of thousands of troops into Vietnam when we didn't need to. We could have invaded North Vietnam years before but Democrats wouldn't let us. Its the same thing that happened in Korea when a Democrat President fired General McArthur (I think that was his name)because he was fighting the war to win. There was public outcry at his firing and 2 million people lined up to greet him when he visited New York, twice as many as who came out to see the President returning from Europe after WW1.


Firstly, liberals don't oppose national defense - for example, the very liberal member of this board, Keruvalia, is a veteran, as is Tekania.

Oh yes they do. They opposed the Star Wars shield. Amazingly the only time Liberals are concerned with fiscal responcibility is when it comes to national defense. They are perfectly content to waste money on useless social programs but when the time came to make an anti-nuke missle shield they cried foul. And you know why? Because if it was made the their beloved Soviet Union was going to die off. They only true power the Soviets had was their threat of nuclear annihlation. Remove this threat and they were nothing more then another dictatorship with no real power.


Secondly, being militaristic is not the only way to be patriotic. Being a teacher or a doctor is just as patriotic as being a soldier. I could say that conservatives are unpatriotic because they oppose education, healthcare and don't care about their fellow countrymen.?

I agree with you that it is not the only way to be patriotic, however the military still deserves respect, something which the Left refused to give. As for the second part of your statement, that "mindless partisanship" on your part. I'm a Conservative, and you know what my major in college is? Secondary Education with a focus in History and Political Science. So much for the "Conservatives don't care about education" line. Healthcare? I am opposed to universal healthcare because it would destroy our economy by insane amounts of taxation and poor hospitals. Look at Canada for reason enough why Socialized Medicine will never work. We don't care about our fellow countrymen? How so? Because we refuse to give people governement handouts, but instead want people to raise themselves up as they have done for thousands of years before the Socialist revolution of the 1960's? And we support the military and entrapeneurs, something which many Socialists do not, especially the latter, for it goes against their worldview of the perfect society. How can they support people going into buissness for themselves when they want the governement to own everything?



Mindless partisanship. There is nothing to suggest that liberals want to undermine society. Why do you capitalise the L... you're not Canadian are you?

No, I am not Canadian, I am American, however I capitalize the L and the C because by doing so I am referring to the entire spectrum of the Left wing, not just the ideology of Liberalism, but the people who hold it also, the same being true for Conservatives and Right wingers.

And you know why? Because if it was made the their beloved Soviet Union was going to die off.
I would quote and refute your entire post, but I think I can show everyone just how partisan and closed to other ideas you are by quoting this one line. There's no getting through to you.

As for the second part of your statement, that "mindless partisanship" on your part. I'm a Conservative, and you know what my major in college is? Secondary Education with a focus in History and Political Science. So much for the "Conservatives don't care about education" line.
O and I can't let this go either. Why is it more acceptable for you to generalise that all liberals think like Jane Fonda (provably untrue), than it is for me to say that all conservatives oppose education?

I would quote and refute your entire post, but I think I can show everyone just how partisan and closed to other ideas you are by quoting this one line. There's no getting through to you.


O and I can't let this go either. Why is it more acceptable for you to generalise that all liberals think like Jane Fonda (provably untrue), than it is for me to say that all conservatives oppose education?

So instead of trying to have a rational debate, your just going to walk away and say "theres no getting through to you"? I have a pretty open mind, and for all my bashing of Liberals, I have become more liberal economicly then I used to be. But fine, walk away from a debate you coward.

it could be worse, you could be "patriotic" about a drink.

*looks inoccent*
That better not be aimed at Canada, buddy.... :D

Well, I don't have patriotism or nationalism, so I guess I wouldn't know.

So instead of trying to have a rational debate, your just going to walk away and say "theres no getting through to you"? I have a pretty open mind, and for all my bashing of Liberals, I have become more liberal economicly then I used to be. But fine, walk away from a debate you coward.
Well, yeah. The debate is pretty much over when someone claims that liberals favour Stalinism. But if you want me to argue through your post, see below.

You missunderstand my point. What I meant was that during the Vietnam war Liberals attacked the American military through their speech and protests. They refused to accept the point that whether you agree with the said war or not, you still need to support the troops because they are risking their lives. Jane Fonda and the rest of the Hollywood "elites" refused to believe that, and amazingly it was a Democrat president who lost the war for us.
Most liberals are not like Jane Fonda. Most liberals think that attacking the troops just because they disagree with the war is wrong.

You might remember him although they don't teach this in history, his name was L.B.J.? He sent tens of thousands of troops into Vietnam when we didn't need to. We could have invaded North Vietnam years before but Democrats wouldn't let us. Its the same thing that happened in Korea when a Democrat President fired General McArthur (I think that was his name)because he was fighting the war to win. There was public outcry at his firing and 2 million people lined up to greet him when he visited New York, twice as many as who came out to see the President returning from Europe after WW1.
Is it beyond your comprehension that I don't give a shit who is a Republican or a Democrat? I'm not even American, and you seem to expect me to try to defend the Democrats.

LBJ sucked, but to get back to Korea: MacArthur had to be fired. He was proposing an all out nuclear war against China. That would just start a new war, not win the current one. No understanding of MAD. You're not meant to actually use nuclear weapons.

Oh yes they do. They opposed the Star Wars shield.
Just because liberals don't favour throwing billions at every overblown military project proposed by some crackpot, doesn't mean that they want to get invaded.

I agree with you that it is not the only way to be patriotic, however the military still deserves respect, something which the Left refused to give. As for the second part of your statement, that "mindless partisanship" on your part. I'm a Conservative, and you know what my major in college is? Secondary Education with a focus in History and Political Science. So much for the "Conservatives don't care about education" line.
Alright, so you are a conservative who favours taxpayer-funded education? That's good. Now you understand that there are many variants of conservatism, just as there are socialism. Not all socialists want to nationalise everything and ban enterprise.

Healthcare? I am opposed to universal healthcare because it would destroy our economy by insane amounts of taxation and poor hospitals. Look at Canada for reason enough why Socialized Medicine will never work.
Look at Canada for reason enough why government-funded (stop using that crappy buzzword "socialized") Medicine works. It's availible to all citizens, unlike in the US, and the govenment still spends less of the taxpayers' money on it.

We don't care about our fellow countrymen? How so? Because we refuse to give people governement handouts, but instead want people to raise themselves up as they have done for thousands of years before the Socialist revolution of the 1960's?
Before welfare, life was hell for too many people. Your idealised "opportunity society" never existed in reality. Before the age of welfare, if you weren't lucky, you just starved. I don't think that's an acceptable situation. To allow you own countrymen to starve is unpatriotic in my opinion.

And we support the military and entrapeneurs, something which many Socialists do not, especially the latter, for it goes against their worldview of the perfect society. How can they support people going into business for themselves when they want the governement to own everything?
This part of your post makes the mistake of implying that to be against capitalism is unpatriotic. Working for oneself alone, and no others is selfish. I think selfishness is the root of evil.

Also, not all socialists want to nationalise everything. I am a democratic socialist (click here for my positions on the issues (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=430307)) - a classification that also broadly fits most liberals. That means I favour a mix of the best aspects of both socialism and capitalism.

Yeah, what's that about? Why can't modern Germans accept that what the Nazis did is in no way their fault, and to be patriotic is not being a Nazi.

On the other hand, why should they?
I apologize for assuming that all of Europe felt that way. Although I think if anybody was to display patriotism in an American way, he would earn strange looks all around.

Growing up in Germany, you get to know a certain pride in principles, but no patriotism as such. And I can't say that I ever missed it...

You missunderstand my point. What I meant was that during the Vietnam war Liberals attacked the American military through their speech and protests. They refused to accept the point that whether you agree with the said war or not, you still need to support the troops because they are risking their lives.


wtf.... WHY??? :confused:
They get paid for risking their lives for a braindead cause that I don't agree with, and somehow I'm morally obliged to SUPPORT that???

Yeah, what's that about? Why can't modern Germans accept that what the Nazis did is in no way their fault, and to be patriotic is not being a Nazi.Hard to understand for non-Germans, but the ones that tend to make use of that right are usually the ones that march on the streets waving red white black flags, have shaved heads, combat boots and shout S**g H**l

Yeah, what's that about? Why can't modern Germans accept that what the Nazis did is in no way their fault, and to be patriotic is not being a Nazi.


lol, I usually drink Guinness because it's cheaper and nicer than other mainstream beers. But I have been in the totally ridiculous situation of being castigated for drinking a non-Irish beer ... really pathetic!


Patriotism is good, but I am concerned when you refer to it as "the Fatherland." :eek:
Lol, Das Vaterland! Nah its just like Russians referring to their country as Mother Russia or the Motherland. Just a phrase, holds no Nazi or Soviet meaning! And you should really try Welsh beers, they are cheep and almost to die for!! And believe me in Germany we are aware of our past and we know the difference between Patriotism and Nazism. Its key in the education of our children as im sure Laerod knows (if he's been through school in Germany and/or is a parent)!

Lol, Der Vaterland! Nah its just like Russians referring to their country as Mother Russia or the Motherland. Just a phrase, holds no Nazi or Soviet meaning! And you should really try Welsh beers, they are cheep and almost to die for!! And believe me in Germany we are aware of our past and we know the difference between Patriotism and Nazism. Its key in the education of our children as im sure Laerod knows (if he's been through school in Germany and/or is a parent)!

"Der Vaterland"?
I find it hard to believe that you are German, honey ;)

Hard to understand for non-Germans, but the ones that tend to make use of that right are usually the ones that march on the streets waving red white black flags, have shaved heads, combat boots and shout S**g H**l
It's time to take patriotism back from the Nazis. It's not as if Irish people allow the IRA to monopolise use of the tricolour flag.
http://www.ricksteves.com/images/ireland/irish_flag.jpg

The article that triggered that question in my mind can be found here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4719995.stm)



So, being nationalistic and patriotic means, at least to this person, to refuse to have one's country's historical mistakes displayed in public and commemorated. Why?

Don't we have to take the good with the bad? If a person is proud of their country and, more importantly, to be part of this country, then that means this person only sees the positive aspects. After all, who would be proud of mistakes?
In consequence, this person must have a rather distorted view of the world in history and today...

To quote someone dead ten years, and wiser than i:
"Hey Buddy, why you burning that flag? My daddy died for that flag!"
"Thats funny, i got mine for $5 at K-Mart"
"Hey Buddy, my daddy died for that flag in Korea"
"Well, isn't that ironic, because this flag was MADE IN KOREA"
"Hey Buddy, don't you love your country?"
"Why should i love my country? It's just where my parents fucked"

It's time to take patriotism back from the Nazis. It's not as if Irish people allow the IRA to monopolise use of the tricolour flag.
http://www.ricksteves.com/images/ireland/irish_flag.jpg

Once again, why should they? Germany manages brilliantly without patriotism...

"Der Vaterland"?
I find it hard to believe that you are German, honey ;)
What does that mean?

What does that mean?

It's "das Vaterland"...

Yeah....i know.....half German, ill give you that

Lol, Das Vaterland! Nah its just like Russians referring to their country as Mother Russia or the Motherland. Just a phrase, holds no Nazi or Soviet meaning! And you should really try Welsh beers, they are cheep and almost to die for!! And believe me in Germany we are aware of our past and we know the difference between Patriotism and Nazism. Its key in the education of our children as im sure Laerod knows (if he's been through school in Germany and/or is a parent)!"Der Vaterland"? Last time I checked, Land was still of neutral gender...
As for the school thing, yeah, my first visit to a concentration camp was in 4th grade... although my school was only half German :D

Yeah....i know.....half German, ill give you that
I'm only half German and I got it right. Sheesh.

"Der Vaterland"? Last time I checked, Land was still of neutral gender...
As for the school thing, yeah, my first visit to a concentration camp was in 4th grade... although my school was only half German :D

4th grade? Wow, that's a bit early, isn't it? How many 10-year-old kids have a concept of the Nazi-era and the related events?
We went in 6th grade... and in 7th grade... and in 8th grade... and I gave it a slip in 10th.

It's also has the highest degree of religious fundementalism too.. More than Iran and Saudi Arabia.

You sad, sad, misguided fool.

4th grade? Wow, that's a bit early, isn't it? How many 10-year-old kids have a concept of the Nazi-era and the related events?
We went in 6th grade... and in 7th grade... and in 8th grade... and I gave it a slip in 10th.The only other times I've been were in 8th grade and 13th though 13th was Terezin on our Prague trip with the PW-Leistungskurs. And I read Maus I and II during class in 5th grade, but that's not something you find in Germany.

Once again, why should they? Germany manages brilliantly without patriotism...
Does Germany really lack patriotism? Cabra, you seem to consistently ignore or fail to understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

The only other times I've been were in 8th grade and 13th though 13th was Terezin on our Prague trip with the PW-Leistungskurs. And I read Maus I and II during class in 5th grade, but that's not something you find in Germany.

What, Maus? I bought my editions while studying in Leipzig...

Does Germany really lack patriotism? Cabra, you seem to consistently ignore or fail to understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism.

I assume that's because everytime I ask, I get different answers. So, what exactly is partiotism to you?

Does Germany really lack patriotism? Cabra, you seem to consistently ignore or fail to understand the difference between patriotism and nationalism.Trust me. There's a serious lack of both in Germany.

In fact, according the morality test Nationalism is beside Fundementalism and beside Fascism.

I would say, the country with the most Nationalism is the United States. It's also has the highest degree of religious fundementalism too.. More than Iran and Saudi Arabia.

I don't know what it looks like on the inside, but on the outside it looks like a "Giant Christian Killing Machine willing to do with the will of God, and some maniac changes what God wants every other day."

No wonder why he has "Messianic Visions"

Agreed

I assume that's because everytime I ask, I get different answers. So, what exactly is partiotism to you?
Patriotism is the love of one's country and the care of its people. Nationalism is pride in one's country and belief in its superiority.

Gods bless Hicks....


Right. To the current argument within the topic.

I'm an American. I was born in the States, and I've lived the majority of my life within the States. I call myself a patriot.

I belive in the ideals as written down by the Founding Fathers, with minor variations. I believe that all humans are created equal, that we are all entitled to the same pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, so long as we do not actively infringe upon the pursuits of another.

I believe that humans should be able to recognize that it can be okay to disagree over a matter, and that hatred and/or fighting over such petty issues as personal belief or opinion comes across as immature, whiny, and pathetic. I believe that personal belief is just that, PERSONAL. I believe that not everyone will agree with, or even understand, my various beliefs, nor do I expect them to. I do, however, expect them to acknowledge that they are MY beliefs, my ideals, and just as valid to hold as their own, so long as neither of ours cause harm to another.

I also believe, as an American patriot, that dropping the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima was a barbaric act of overkill, especially considering the factors of the time (Japan already considering surrender, IIRC, for instance). I believe that America had no reason what-so-ever to be involved in Viet Nam. I believe that America had no reason to go into Iraq after 2001. I believe that the American government has been threatened for years by corrupt and greedy people with the only power that matters in a capitalistic society. I believe that the current administration should be thoroghly checked into. I believe that anyone, ANYONE, that holds up their political bias as an excuse to ignore some issues, or look down on other issues, should spend a serious amount of time exploring their own beliefs.

I believe, as a patriot, that my country has the potential to be the greatest, friendliest nation on the planet. I believe that my country could have strong impact on bringing about the mythical "peace on Earth." I believe that my country has made many, many mistakes in the past, and will make many more in the future. I believe that my country should examine the difference between "bribery" and modern "lobbying". I believe that my country has been, and always will be, threatened by my government.

I believe, as a self-described patriot, that under the current administration, I would have more freedom to pursue life, liberty, and happiness within the boundaries of other countries. Canada, for example.

I believe, as a patriot, that partisan politics have decimated the ideals and spirits of the land. I believe that so many people are worried about being wrong that they refuse to consider what impact their opinions may have across the board.


Of course, I'm also one that believes, as a patriotic American, that I can support the troops in a war, while refusing to be coerced into believing that the war itself is just and righteous. I also believe that burning the symbol of my country in protest to what I perceive as a corrupt government is itself a just and pariotic act.

Also, I believe that, in America, Justice is only blind because she is dead. We do not have a justice system. We have a legal system. And even the devils enjoy legality, the deconstruction of an argument based on technicalities and loopholes ;)

I believe, as well, that it is the "artists" of a free society, the social critics, that can be amongst the most valued members of the society, bringing to the foreground what they see as problems and negative issues that others may not have yet recognized as such.

The article that triggered that question in my mind can be found here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4719995.stm)



So, being nationalistic and patriotic means, at least to this person, to refuse to have one's country's historical mistakes displayed in public and commemorated. Why?

Don't we have to take the good with the bad? If a person is proud of their country and, more importantly, to be part of this country, then that means this person only sees the positive aspects. After all, who would be proud of mistakes?
In consequence, this person must have a rather distorted view of the world in history and today...

Real American patriotism is this: The dedication and commitment to honor the United States Constitutional Republic and its guarantee of respecting its citizen's civil liberties from all threats both foreign and domestic.

Anything else is just false patriotism that really falls under nationalism. Oh and waving old glory doesn't automatically make you patriotic. Your loyalties must be to the republic. You don't have to bend over and take whatever its government officals give you.

I personally don't like the taste of beer... :eek: Makes me rather un-German...

Maybe, but my favorite wines come from Germany, if it makes you feel any better. Well, they come from Germany even if it doesn't make you feel any better, but I hope the sentiment provides a more pleasant perspective.

Patriotism is the love of one's country and the care of its people. Nationalism is pride in one's country and belief in its superiority.

Hmm... it's difficult to speak of majorities here, as I don't have numbers on that. I don't even know if numbers exist on Germany in that respect. But I can tell you the attitude of my close friends and relatvies in Germany:
About half of them feel about Germany the same way I do: indifferent.
It's a country, not a bad place to live, nice landscapes, the climate can be awful, the economy is going downhill, the political system is ok, but the political parties leave somewhat to be desired. Could be worse, could be better.
As I said, I'm not the only one who left Germany, simply because I personally find life elsewhere to be better. Many of my friends would do the same or did the same, and none of them would care to return to Germany.
The other half couldn't really care less abou Germany on the whole, but they love their own culture (Franken, in my case). The rest of the country could be annexed by Luxemburg tomorrow, they wouldn't give a damn, as long as nobody touches their own region.
You'll find that attitude almost everywhere in Germany : F*** the rest, as long as (insert name of region or county here) stays as it is.

Maybe that's why Germany on the whole is rather EU-friendly : One half see their chances of going elsewhere made so much easier, and for the other half there's not that much difference between the German Federal Government and the EU....

...
The other half couldn't really care less abou Germany on the whole, but they love their own culture (Franken, in my case). The rest of the country could be annexed by Luxemburg tomorrow, they wouldn't give a damn, as long as nobody touches their own region.
You'll find that attitude almost everywhere in Germany : F*** the rest, as long as (insert name of region or county here) stays as it is.
...
Actually, I've noticed that that's mainly the case between Bavarians and non-Bavarians... for us North Germans, Luxemburg can annex Bavaria for all we care (or it could become the seperate state the Bayernpartei wants it to be) :D

Actually, I've noticed that that's mainly the case between Bavarians and non-Bavarians... for us North Germans, Luxemburg can annex Bavaria for all we care (or it could become the seperate state the Bayernpartei wants it to be) :D

Don't tell me you care for people from Swabia? Or Hessen? Let alone those from Saxonia? ;)

Don't tell me you care for people from Swabia? Or Hessen? Let alone those from Saxonia? ;)More than for the darn Bavarians :D

Actually, I've noticed that that's mainly the case between Bavarians and non-Bavarians... for us North Germans, Luxemburg can annex Bavaria for all we care (or it could become the seperate state the Bayernpartei wants it to be) :D
Hold it right there! Luxemburg annex Bavaria? Bavaria could swallow Luxemburg in one gulp ;)

Actually as a born and bred Bavarian this is how I would classify myself:
Eruopean first, Bavarian second, German third (and a looooooong way after Bavarian).

I have very few emotional ties with Germany, apart from a general feeing of annoyance. I love Bavaria, the mountains (although I live in one of the flattest areas), the lakes, the Beergardens, the generally relaxed attitude to life ...
Politically, I think that Bavaria is an extremely insular, conservative and morally corrupt state led my a power crazed bureaucrat.

I don't have any patriotic feelings towards Germany, because by some fluke I ended up being born here. Looking at my ancestry it might have been in any north European country really.

If home is where the heart is then my home is where I live with my family, where my parents live and, geographically, North Derbyshire (the Dark Peak) where I feel utterly at home and at peace!

Hold it right there! Luxemburg annex Bavaria? Bavaria could swallow Luxemburg in one gulp ;)

Actually as a born and bred Bavarian this is how I would classify myself:
Eruopean first, Bavarian second, German third (and a looooooong way after Bavarian).

I have very few emotional ties with Germany, apart from a general feeing of annoyance. I love Bavaria, the mountains (although I live in one of the flattest areas), the lakes, the Beergardens, the generally relaxed attitude to life ...
Politically, I think that Bavaria is an extremely insular, conservative and morally corrupt state led my a power crazed bureaucrat.

I don't have any patriotic feelings towards Germany, because by some fluke I ended up being born here. Looking at my ancestry it might have been in any north European country really.

If home is where the heart is then my home is where I live with my family, where my parents live and, geographically, North Derbyshire (the Dark Peak) where I feel utterly at home and at peace!The Luxembourg thing was Cabra's idea to begin with (Sie ist fränkisch, daher kommt das warscheinlich :p). My list goes like this: Human first, then European with North American at a close second, then Germany with American at a close second, and then State and City (happens to be the same! :D Berlin! Berlin! Wir fahren nach Berlin!)... I've never lived in the States, so I have no place to call home there. Bavaria is nice (I've lived in Munich for a year) but some mentalities there really bug me, as does one certain Ministerpräsident that reminds me of the Emperor in Star Wars... :D

The Luxembourg thing was Cabra's idea to begin with (Sie ist fränkisch, daher kommt das warscheinlich :p). My list goes like this: Human first, then European with North American at a close second, then Germany with American at a close second, and then State and City (happens to be the same! :D Berlin! Berlin! Wir fahren nach Berlin!)... I've never lived in the States, so I have no place to call home there. Bavaria is nice (I've lived in Munich for a year) but some mentalities there really bug me, as does one certain Ministerpräsident that reminds me of the Emperor in Star Wars... :D
Ja ja die Franken, wären gerne außerhalb von Bayern, aber keiner will sie haben ;)
About the Ministerpräsident, see my last post. I don't know if him losing the last chancellor election was worse, because he stayed head of Bavaria or having him as German chancellor, had he won (at least he'd been further away from me).

Edit: And don't get me started on German politics and politicians. Then again, don't get me started on politicians full stop!

Still, all in all I find it a lot easier to like and relate to Bavaria (as a whole including politics :( ) than to Germany. In fact there are very few places outside Bavaria I would like to live in Germany. The other places are either also south (e.g. Freiburg) of Hamburg, which is where my mother is from, so I spent a lot of time there.

Ja ja die Franken, wären gerne außerhalb von Bayern, aber keiner will sie haben ;) Nee, die können ooch 'n bischen lustich sein (wenn se jut jenuch abjefüllt sind :D)

About the Ministerpräsident, see my last post. I don't know if him losing the last chancellor election was worse, because he stayed head of Bavaria or having him as German chancellor, had he won (at least he'd been further away from me).
Considering I was living in Berlin at the time, it would have sucked pretty bad. I really loved laughing at him after the lead melted away and his "Es steht fest: Wir haben die Wahl gewonnen"-statement became hilariously anachronistic :D

Still, all in all I find it a lot easier to like and relate to Bavaria (as a whole including politics :( ) than to Germany. In fact there are very few places outside Bavaria I would like to live in Germany. The other places are either also south (e.g. Freiburg) of Hamburg, which is where my mother is from, so I spent a lot of time there.Meh, my German ancestors are from what is now the westernmost part of Russia... :( They settled in Warnemünde (near Rostock) during the war and fled through Berlin to settle in Bremerhaven before the Wall went up.

Meh, my German ancestors are from what is now the westernmost part of Russia... :( They settled in Warnemünde (near Rostock) during the war and fled through Berlin to settle in Bremerhaven before the Wall went up.
Mother's side: My grandfather was from Niedersachsen (Lower Saxonia for our non German friends), grandmother from Bohemia
Father's side: GF from Bohemia (funnily enough the same town), GM from Bavaria
Further up the line: Austrian, Prussian, English, French, Duch and a few Belgium ancestors.
English wife with an Irish father, her mother has German ancestors - I'm happy to say that I keep up the family tradition of unifing Europe the nice way :)

Mother's side: My grandfather was from Niedersachsen (Lower Saxonia for our non German friends), grandmother from Bohemia
Father's side: GF from Bohemia (funnily enough the same town), GM from Bavaria
Further up the line: Austrian, Prussian, English, French, Duch and a few Belgium ancestors.
English wife with an Irish father, her mother has German ancestors - I'm happy to say that I keep up the family tradition of unifing Europe the nice way :)
Queen Victoria tried something like that and it ended in a disaster! :p

So, does anybody feel a bit patriotic in regard to Europe, or is the feeling reserved for your village/town/region/nation?

So, does anybody feel a bit patriotic in regard to Europe, or is the feeling reserved for your village/town/region/nation?
I wouldn't call it patriotic, but I'm glad I am European. I like it here, I like the diversity and yet common cultural heritage, I don't think I could live outside of Europe for any langth of time (say mor than 2-4 years)