NationStates Jolt Archive

"Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9:00 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war, and that she would struggle along with us." - Bui Tin, Colonel, People's Army of Vietnam (PAVN) in Wall Street Journal article, Thursday August 3, 1995 (A8).

Reference: Following Ho Chi Minh: The Memoirs of a North Vietnamese Colonel by Tin Bui (1999 PB) Read also, General Bui Tin of the North Vietnamese Army tells all.

You adjust tactics depending on the situation. If they can nuke you back, then you wouldn't be in the situation in the first place lol. I was referring to getting them BEFORE they had nukes. If they already have them, we wouldn't be talking about this lol.

Precisely the kind of hypocritical attitude I was talking about. You propose bombing people on the grounds that they COULD become potential threats and ensuring that they will never have the strength/capability to become a force capable of projecting threat.

You know what? Hitler proposed the same thing too. He claimed that the Jews were an inferior race and that they would contaminate the Aryan race with their continued existence within the society of the Reich. As such, he wanted them exterminated.

Should I be able to bomb my neighbors and kill them all because I don't like them and they could pose a threat to me one day? No. I can't. That's against the law and is morally wrong. I'm pretty sure you feel the same way.

And yet, you propose bombing people you don't even know or care about because they might do the same to you. Emphasis on might here. You don't see them as people. You only see them as faceless entities that must be destroyed, innocent or not.

You're a hypocrite. And you know it.

Precisely the kind of hypocritical attitude I was talking about. You propose bombing people on the grounds that they COULD become potential threats and ensuring that they will never have the strength/capability to become a force capable of projecting threat.

You know what? Hitler proposed the same thing too. He claimed that the Jews were an inferior race and that they would contaminate the Aryan race with their continued existence within the society of the Reich. As such, he wanted them exterminated.

Should I be able to bomb my neighbors and kill them all because I don't like them and they could pose a threat to me one day? No. I can't. That's against the law and is morally wrong. I'm pretty sure you feel the same way.

And yet, you propose bombing people you don't even know or care about because they might do the same to you. Emphasis on might here. You don't see them as people. You only see them as faceless entities that must be destroyed, innocent or not.

You call yourself a member of a peaceful and loving religion?

You're a hypocrite. And you know it.

how did you bring his religion into this?

how did you bring his religion into this?

My bad. It doesn't change the fact that Neo Rogolia is only interested in bullying the kids in the schoolyard while steering away from the bigger ones.

My bad. It doesn't change the fact that Neo Rogolia is only interested in bullying the kids in the schoolyard while steering away from the bigger ones.

you are one to talk, you and many other people are bullying HIM and only him, this wouldn't have happened if there was nobody backing you

Yeah, Eutrusca, just read those articles about some of the things Jane did in North Vietnam, and it's pretty disgusting to say the least. I knew she did and said some dumbass things, but that's about as bad as it gets short of providing information or literally conspiring against us. Technically, though, I guess it isn't and shouldn't be considered treason, because it's hard to prove that anybody was physically injured because some brain dead bimbo was prancing around basically saying "F the country for which people have died in order to allow me to say F my country". If it could be proved that some disillusioned NVA soldier actually regained his spirits specifically because of, and only because of her actions, a case for treason certainly could be made, though, because that is crossing over from the world of rhetoric to the actual physical world, with specific results of an action that harmed the people of our country. She sure did do her best to push the envelope as far as possible with her bs.

One of the most painful elements of democracy is that we have to tolerate such idiocy. As it stands, though, I figure you can sort of grit your teeth and harp on it, or just figure that some dumb bitch suffering from the typical Hollywood "ivory tower" syndrome, so disconnected from reality that she would do and say such things against the very thing which has provided her with such a life of comfort and leisure, ultimately, is just another dullard spouting worthless nonsense. To me, it's sort of like a hobo on the street raving about the Apocalypse, calling me a sinner, whatever. What is being said by the person is so devoid of thought as to not even really deserve address. I know it's difficult, because the media makes sure it's shown as much as possible and thrown in our faces, and some people are foolish enough to believe her lies and delusions, but perhaps the best way for sane people like us to deal with it is to not even dignify it with our attention, much like the raving hobo.

I guarantee you, more of her intention was to literally piss off soldiers with her actions than save lives by ending what she viewed as an unjust war; after all, she's shown no particular love for US soldiers specifically. Paying attention and becoming angry seems to be in a fashion playing the game she wants people to play, so perhaps it's better to just realize it's some silly tw@t (pardon my french) basically spouting gibberish that doesn't even deserve the minute dignity of a moment's attention. She's out to manipulate people's emotions, so perhaps the best way to deal with it is to ignore her like a fly. Certainly, you have the right, justification, and extremely good reason to be pissed off, I would never presume to say otherwise, it's just that maybe ignoring it all together is the best way; is she really even worth feeling the smallest emotion or spending a second's attention on, after all?




To the people who are saying "To be against the war doesn't mean we are against soldiers", believe me, we realize that. I think most of the commentary is directed toward Potaria and the few others who, earlier in the thread, severely insulted the general character, morality, and intelligence of our servicemen and servicewomen. When we defend them and assert their honor, it is against those people in particular, and those like them, not every single person who disagrees with the war, or war in general.

Indeed, if one does disagree, it is one's actual patriotic duty as part of a democracy to voice that opinion. The only point of contention is that it can be done in a classy, mature, respectful manner, and one which does not target people on the ground. If ever people are to be targeted, let it be those who are responsible for the war, as it is their political failings that always lead to war (and it's actually not ALWAYS on us, either). If there is a case of rape or war crimes among a specific platoon, or what have you, by all means deride and insult those involved (after convicted), as they are most certainly a stain to the uniform, but pre-judging an entire group of overwhelmingly brave and heroic people is merely a reflection of low class, poor judgment, and predetermined obstinacy from the accuser. That is our only point, I believe. Saying "all soldiers are out to go to foreign lands and kill innocent people and stuff" is along the same lines as "all niggers are stupid" and "all spicks are dirty." It's hurtful, it's untruthful, it's disrespectful, and it's entirely unnecessary and offensive, not to mention plain fucking stupid (pardon my french again, but I feel strongly about such things).

you are one to talk, you and many other people are bullying HIM and only him, this wouldn't have happened if there was nobody backing you

I thought Neo Rogolia was a her?

Besides, alone or backed up, it doesn't change the fact that I hold views and opinions that disagree with her. You say it wouldn't have happened if there was nobody backing me. I would not neccessarily say that is so. I left this thread some time ago, showing up again only today once it was over 25 pages from where it left off.

And its not like I haven't disagreed with others such as Eut, Kibolonia and Corneliu to name a few. And some of those times were pretty much arguments kept between the both of us alone (although one might debate the definition of that given that it was posted on a public board).

On the subject of the whole "against troops/administration/etc" thing, it bears keeping in mind that the army is the tool of the government. Unless someone staged a coup somewhere, the army does what the goverment says in general (exceptions in cases where individuals or groups do stuff their not ordered to do so i.e. rape, pillaging, unlawful killing, etc)

i didnt know she was a her, sorry

Man, always bust my ass to write the best post I can, and always gets ignored :/. Thanks though, Mirchaz.


It didn't go unnoticed here. Your effort showed through.

Yeah, Eutrusca, just read those articles about some of the things Jane did in North Vietnam, and it's pretty disgusting to say the least. I knew she did and said some dumbass things, but that's about as bad as it gets short of providing information or literally conspiring against us. Technically, though, I guess it isn't and shouldn't be considered treason, because it's hard to prove that anybody was physically injured because some brain dead bimbo was prancing around basically saying "F the country for which people have died in order to allow me to say F my country".
Here's another take on the subject of why Hanoi Jane was never prosecuted:

"The US Government, worrying that an indictment and trial of Fonda could backfire given the strong anti-war protest and movement that had emerged at home, capitulated and backed away from any prosecution. Even the anti-Communists in charge of the House Internal Security Committee were so scared of taking on Fonda that they refused to subpoena her to testify despite demands from many in Congress that they do so. The Committee did raise issues pertaining to her trip, but the Justice Department refused to pursue the matter, issuing instead what the authors call a "glaringly deficient Memorandum of Law," that served as a legal excuse to avoid doing anything. The Department’s representative for Internal Security, they show, offered what they call "an embarrassingly lame" attempt to stress concern for protection of Fonda’s civil liberties! The result was that Justice came forth with the recommendation "that Fonda not be prosecuted for treason," and the chief law enforcement officer of the US- the Attorney General- agreed. This was, they argue, a clear "political decision." The very fame that made her propaganda effective now worked to protect her at home, where she had become a major celebrity and star. If prosecuted, Fonda, with the aid of a mass movement and a sharp left-wing lawyer, would, the Department feared, "make a monkey out of us." - from a review of the book Aid and Comfort:’ Jane Fonda in North Vietnam (Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland and Company, 2002. 206 pp. $39.95), by writer/lawyers Henry Mark Holzer and Erika Holzer.

My mother served 20 years in the Navy and she opposes the war as well. So, there you go. There's another.

As for my father.. well... He served 20 years in the Navy too (and five years of the British army). And he supports the war, like you. But his exact statements have been, "Everbody knew the intelligence was bullshit. But the fact is, Hussein needed to be taken care of. The civilians? Fuck 'em. I don't give a shit about any of them."

His exact words.

So, the warmongering stereotype sometimes fits, but not always.
That explains quite a lot.

Obvously, you know your father better than I ever will, but I have learned from experience with many who say that sort of thing that they seldom truly believe it. Just an observiation.

I don't know Forrest, was it the truth? Do we know that for fact? I don't think we ever did.

A lie told often enough becomes the truth.. (forget who said it, but he was right on the money)


hate to tell you,but hitler said it...actually,the bigger the lie,the more people will buy it.

Was it this guy?

"....In my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda."
- George W Bush

my dad use to tell me when i was little,throw enough mud against a wall and some will stick...great quote then,great quote now....applies to liberals and conservatives equally.

My bad. It doesn't change the fact that Neo Rogolia is only interested in bullying the kids in the schoolyard while steering away from the bigger ones.
Strange. I always choose the biggest, meanest ones. I figure that, if I can beat them, I can safely ignore the others! :D

my dad use to tell me when i was little,throw enough mud against a wall and some will stick...great quote then,great quote now....applies to liberals and conservatives equally.
LOL! True, true. :D

my dad use to tell me when i was little,throw enough mud against a wall and some will stick...great quote then,great quote now....applies to liberals and conservatives equally.
while we're on the subject of good quotes, here's my favorite (well, second, someone beat me to Bush/catapult propaganda quote!): "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Hermann Goering, awaiting the Nuremberg Trials.

while we're on the subject of good quotes, here's my favorite (well, second, someone beat me to Bush/catapult propaganda quote!): "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Hermann Goering, awaiting the Nuremberg Trials.

how true,be it iraq,which i have mixed feelings about,or the "patriot act"which i have zero mixed feelings for...bad law and along the same lines as that quote...please,dont call me unpatriotic..take away my freedom and rights..just as long as i am not called unpatriotic and i can feel protectected by the "benevolent "government.

while we're on the subject of good quotes, here's my favorite (well, second, someone beat me to Bush/catapult propaganda quote!): "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Hermann Goering, awaiting the Nuremberg Trials.

how true,be it iraq,which i have mixed feelings about,or the "patriot act"which i have zero mixed feelings for...bad law and along the same lines as that quote...please,dont call me unpatriotic..take away my freedom and rights..just as long as i am not called unpatriotic and i can feel protectected by the "benevolent "government.

while we're on the subject of good quotes, here's my favorite (well, second, someone beat me to Bush/catapult propaganda quote!): "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Hermann Goering, awaiting the Nuremberg Trials.

how true,be it iraq,which i have mixed feelings about,or the "patriot act"which i have zero mixed feelings for...bad law and along the same lines as that quote...please,dont call me unpatriotic..take away my freedom and rights..just as long as i am not called unpatriotic and i can feel protectected by the "benevolent "government.

how true,be it iraq,which i have mixed feelings about,or the "patriot act"which i have zero mixed feelings for...bad law and along the same lines as that quote...please,dont call me unpatriotic..take away my freedom and rights..just as long as i am not called unpatriotic and i can feel protectected by the "benevolent "government.
WOW!! TRIPLE POST!!! good job! :D If only I was that talented...

while we're on the subject of good quotes, here's my favorite (well, second, someone beat me to Bush/catapult propaganda quote!): "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Hermann Goering, awaiting the Nuremberg Trials.

Quick question, where did this quote come from - "Goering awaiting Nuremberg Trials" doesn't cut it for me. I don't claim he didn't say this, he may have, but I'd like to see the actual source of the quote - to whom did he make this statement? Transcripts available? etc.

Quick question, where did this quote come from - "Goering awaiting Nuremberg Trials" doesn't cut it for me. I don't claim he didn't say this, he may have, but I'd like to see the actual source of the quote - to whom did he make this statement? Transcripts available? etc.
various sources...just google "goering quote"

if you like snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm

this further clears it up:

http://www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=235519

various sources...just google "goering quote"

if you like snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.htm

this further clears it up:

http://www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=235519

Thank you - After checking the links, I'm still not convinced Goering actually made the statement, but your credibility has been significantly enhanced in my mind and the probability (as opposed to the possibility) that the quote is accurate has also been increased significantly.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the thrust of the quotation, I just find it a bit "too" convenient. I will accept, however, that it could be accurate and I fully agree it's relevance and applicability is undeniable and "on target."

Strange. I always choose the biggest, meanest ones. I figure that, if I can beat them, I can safely ignore the others! :D

What happens when you can't beat them? I'm guessing your medical bills must be enormous.

Either that or you had a gang bribed somewhere to bail you out in case it got too hot. =p

That's about enough of that.

Kradlumania has earned a week long time out. There are proper and improper ways to act on this forum. You are strongly advised to learn the difference.

- The Most Glorious Hack
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