NationStates Jolt Archive

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

yeah, what a nice guy. Let's blame the others for what he did.

You know, in Germany, you could almost be considered as comitting a crime.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

How are other nation's at fault for not accepting German Jews? Hitler was still the one kicking them out of his country. The rest of Europe would never had to have rejected the German Jews if Hitler wasn't beginning genocide against them.

Actually, Holocaust aside, there were quite a few things he did that weren't particularly very nice. The SS wasn't specifically all anti-Jew you know. They did some rather unpleasant things to gypsies, homosexuals and other assorted undesirables if memory serves.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.




:rolleyes: And like his book didn't spell out what he wanted to do to begin with.

How are other nation's at fault for not accepting German Jews? Hitler was still the one kicking them out of his country. The rest of Europe would never had to have rejected the German Jews if Hitler wasn't beginning genocide against them.That's not really true actually. Hitler wasn't really kicking them out. Soon, jews had to get a big J stamped into their passports so they could be denied the right to leave Germany. I believe the author of this thread has seriously misunderstood Hitler.

He led the most evil and genocidal government in history.

I think every normal person understands that!

That's not really true actually. Hitler wasn't really kicking them out. Soon, jews had to get a big J stamped into their passports so they could be denied the right to leave Germany. I believe the author of this thread has seriously misunderstood Hitler.

Well he wasn't kicking them out, but he was driving them to leave.

Well he wasn't kicking them out, but he was driving them to leave.At the very beginning, yes. But then he decided it would be better to kill them. As I said before, jews had their passports stamped and had to take on the name of Israel for men and I think Sarah for women. That way they would be denied passage past German checkpoints. So the arguement that Hitler only started killing them because they couldn't go anywhere is rather silly.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well. And what part of his policy are saying is missunderstood? he was good for the german economy that is a fact but about the rest of it i think he was a genocidal maniac look what he did in czech republic after occupation or poland -rule with iron fist and he arested people:eek: :rolleyes: :sniper: ..germany+britain hmmm a new E.U. or H.U.=hittlers union ,and what would happen to french?! lol hm maybe u.s.a. wanted that scenario! but anyways i think Russians would still control Eastern Europe as they always did and always will...

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

You're a german aren't you? Right, I'll get the fire wood. Were gonna have ourselves a good old-fashioned witch burning.

Well he wasnt the biggest killer in 20th Century Europe and nor was he wholly responsible for all that happened, but that still doesnt change the fact that he was an evil racist pig that killed for a reason. I think the reason we consider him worse is A because we went to war with Germany whereas we never fought the Soviet Union and B because Stalins killings were just an atrocity to keep himself in power. Hitlers killings were genocide.

He led the most evil and genocidal government in history.

I think every normal person understands that!
I wouldn't say it was the most evil. While I do agree that the guy was a total nutcase. I have to say that ,in my opinion at least, I believe Stalin was worse. But that's a whole different topic.

You're a german aren't you? Right, I'll get the fire wood. Were gonna have ourselves a good old-fashioned witch burning.Please don't. There's no point in lowering yourself to that level. Who knows, you might end up burning me! :p

I wouldn't say it was the most evil. While I do agree that the guy was a total nutcase. I have to say that ,in my opinion at least, I believe Stalin was worse. But that's a whole different topic.I wouldn't consider Stalin as evil as Hitler. Stalin was paranoid, but Hitler was obsessed with purging unwanted peoples.

[n00b goggles]

H!+13r wuz t3h k3\/\/1357 w0rld l34d3r 5!nc3 5+a1||\|!!!!!1111 Z0MG H3 |<!113D |0+z 0f p33p13!!!!!!11!!11 :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

[/n00b goggles]

Okay, my opinion? Hitler was a misguided individual who thought his race was superior to everyone else's. I can tell you he was wrong. So can a lot of other people. But people listened to him the same way they listened to Jesus, and they did what he said. So he really did some awful things, it was probably all for his own benefit too, or prestige or something. Or maybe he really did believe Germans were superior to Jews. But anyway, I hate him. :p

That's not really true actually. Hitler wasn't really kicking them out. Soon, jews had to get a big J stamped into their passports so they could be denied the right to leave Germany. I believe the author of this thread has seriously misunderstood Hitler.

To be fair that isnt exactly true. Yes, Jews had to have J stamped to identity documents but not as a restriction of travel, except maybe during the holocaust. But in the few years before the holocaust definitely the government made a number of laws enabling the Jews to leave whereas most germans could not.

Well he wasnt the biggest killer in 20th Century Europe and nor was he wholly responsible for all that happened, but that still doesnt change the fact that he was an evil racist pig that killed for a reason. I think the reason we consider him worse is A because we went to war with Germany whereas we never fought the Soviet Union and B because Stalins killings were just an atrocity to keep himself in power. Hitlers killings were genocide."Just an atrocity". Ha. What is an atrocity, may I ask you, BS? Oh wait, bad pun nickname. ;)

[/non-flame]

I think hitler is perfectly well understood- a genius, but horribly f***ed up at the same time. Altogether, the vast majority of people would view him as landing somewhere considerably below the line of good taste, good ideas or not.

"Just an atrocity". Ha. What is an atrocity, may I ask you, BS? Oh wait, bad pun nickname. ;)

[/non-flame]

Im not disputing the fact that what Stalin did was bad, on a certain scale it is worse - However the reason for Hitlers killings make it worse in a sense, or at least that is how it seems.

I think hitler is perfectly well understood- a genius, but horribly f***ed up at the same time. Altogether, the vast majority of people would view him as landing somewhere considerably below the line of good taste, good ideas or not.A genius? Good ideas or not? Below the line of good taste? What kind of vocabulary is that?

I think hitler is perfectly well understood- a genius, but horribly f***ed up at the same time. Altogether, the vast majority of people would view him as landing somewhere considerably below the line of good taste, good ideas or not.That's some serious understatement there. I know nobody who actually thinks Hitler did something good to advance the world.

Please don't. There's no point in lowering yourself to that level. Who knows, you might end up burning me! :p

If you wish. Instead, I'll resort to childish name calling. Nazi! Nazi! Nazi!
No. That wouldn't be proper. I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

That's some serious understatement there. I know nobody who actually thinks Hitler did something good to advance the world.The highway system, but that's it.

Im not disputing the fact that what Stalin did was bad, on a certain scale it is worse - However the reason for Hitlers killings make it worse in a sense, or at least that is how it seems.So Stalin's killings, which were to advance himself politically, are better than Hitler's which just were genocide killings for no reason? Think about it. Stalin's were perfectly calculated, while Hitler seems more like a deranged madman genius than anything else. Not that I disagree with you—I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here—but just wondering.

The highway system, but that's it.Highways? Places for those dirty cars to drive on and pollute the earth with all their carbon monoxide? I think not. :D

Highways? Places for those dirty cars to drive on and pollute the earth with all their carbon monoxide? I think not. :DAs opposed to the pollution caused by wrecking cars on bad roads getting from A to B? Ah, well. :p

So Stalin's killings, which were to advance himself politically, are better than Hitler's which just were genocide killings for no reason? Think about it. Stalin's were perfectly calculated, while Hitler seems more like a deranged madman genius than anything else. Not that I disagree with you—I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here—but just wondering.

Im just trying to explain why Hitlers killings are seen as worse, I'm not necessarily advocating that they are.

Hitler not that bad misunderstood i cant belive what im hearing or reading so ur saying its alrite if i went out with a shot gun and shot every jew i saw...........NO exactly how is hitler good
Next will be al queda not bad for bombing people....
if i ever see that someone would get hurt

So Stalin's killings, which were to advance himself politically, are better than Hitler's which just were genocide killings for no reason? Think about it. Stalin's were perfectly calculated, while Hitler seems more like a deranged madman genius than anything else. Not that I disagree with you—I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here—but just wondering.

Yes, Hitler's killings are viewed as worse because of the intent behind them, and because of the elaborate system of death created for the killings. Contrary to what you said, most of Stalin's killings were far from calculated. He usually just left people to die from malnourishment or disease. Hitler engaged in a system of extermination. That is why he is generally viewed as worse than Stalin (and Mao as well).

You're a german aren't you? Right, I'll get the fire wood. Were gonna have ourselves a good old-fashioned witch burning.
Yes, thats modern times for you: Antifascists engaging in racism. ;)

British, the jews could travel in the beginning years. But they could not emigrate after 1935, meaning they werent allowed to take their household a/o valuables, could not cash in their bank accounts etc.

Gessler & Guarded, you apologists sicken me. I really wish i could force pictures of the mass graves, of torture and children dying from starvation into you heads until you puke. May the ghosts of the millions innocent dead haunt your dreams.

As opposed to the pollution caused by wrecking cars on bad roads getting from A to B? Ah, well. :pTouché! /bows

You win the Laerod Award for beating Czardas in a debate!

Just kidding.... if there was one, so many people would have won one by now that it would be redundant. ;)

February 27, 1933- The Nazis burn down the Reichstag and seize power in the consequent crisis. Persecution of German Jews begins.

July 16, 1937- Buchewald concentration camp opened.

March 13, 1938- The Nazis annex Austria and begin persecuting Austrian Jews.

March 1939- The Nazis occupy portions of Czechoslovakia.

September 1, 1939- The Nazis invade Poland.

April 9, 1940- The Nazis invade Denmark and Norway.

1940-41- 15 000 people executed at Pirna-Sonnenstein

January 22-23 1941- Nazis begin massacre of Romanian Jews.

May 2, 1941- The Nazis occupy Bulgaria.

May 7, 1941- Introduction of forced labour camps.

April 6, 1941- Nazis invade Greece and Yugoslavia.

June 1941- Executions of French Jews in North Africa begins.

June 1941- The Nazis invade the USSR. By the end of 1943, mobile killing units have killed 1.5 million Jews and captured. Soviet officers.

June-July, 1941- Up to 100 000 Jews are executed in Ponary Forest, Poland.

September 1941- The Nazis start using Zyklon B to execute prisoners in concentration camps.

September 29-30, 1941- 34 000 Jews are executed at Babyn Yar, Ukraine.

October 12-13, 1941- 11 000 Jews are executed at Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine.

October 23, 1941- 34 000 Jews are executed at Odessa, Ukraine.

October 28, 1941-34 000 Jews are executed at Kiev, Ukraine.

November 6, 1941- 15 000 Jews are executed at Kovno, Lithuania.

December, 1941- 27 000 Jews are executed at Riga, Latvia.

December 8, 1941- Chelmno extermination camp opened. By April 1943, 360 000 Jews have been executed there.

December 30, 1941- 10 000 Jews are executed at Simferopol, Crimea.

January 1942- The Nazis begin 'the Final Solution', the systematic extermination of the Jewish people. 3.5 million are killed in concentration camps by the end of the war.

January 31, 1942- 229 052 Jews are executed in the Baltic states

February-March, 1942- 14 000 Jews are executed at Charkow, Ukraine.

March 1, 1942- Sobibor concentration camp becomes extermination camp. 250 000 Jews are executed there by October 1943.

March 16-17, 1942- Belzec Extermination Camp opened. 600 000 Jews are executed there by liberation. Only 2 inmates survive.

May 8 1942- 5670 people executed at Lyda in Ukraine.

June 1, 1942- Treblinka Extermination Camp is opened near Warsaw. By August 1943, 700 000 are executed there.

June 10, 1942- Every man and some women in the Czechoslovak town of Lidice are executed.

July 1, 1942- Unknown thousands of Jews are executed at Minsk, Lida and Slonim in Byelorussia.

October, 1942- 5000 Jews are executed at Dubno, Ukraine.

October 29, 1942- 16 000 Jews are executed at Pinsk, Byelorussia.

December 1942- The Nazis close off the Euthanasia Program, which killed an estimated 150 000 disabled people in Germany and occupied countries.

December 1942- The extermination of the German gipsies begins.

February 1943- 1000 Jews executed at the Bialystok Ghetto, Poland.

April 1943- 5000 Jews are executed in the Warsaw Ghetto.

June 21-27, 1943- 20 000 Poles executed at Lemburg, Poland.

November 3, 1943- 17 000 Jews executed at Majdanek, Latvia.

November 1943- The Sobibor, Treblinka, and Belzec extermination camps are closed after the extermination of 2.2 million Polish Jews.

March 19, 1944- The Nazis invade Hungary.

March 24, 1944- 335 people are executed at the Ardeatine Caves, Italy.

May 1944- The extermination of the Hungarian Jews begins. 440 000, half the Jewish population of Hungary, are sent to Auschwitz.

April 17, 1944- 950 people massacred at Marzabotto, Italy.

June 10, 1944- 300 people massacred at Distomo, Greece.

June 14, 1944- 40 000 Polish children between the age of 10 and 14 are kidnapped for forced labour in the Reich.

August 2 1944- All 4000 Gipsies in Auschwitz are executed with gas.

August 7-30, 1944- All 60 000 Jews held in the Lodz Ghetto and a large amount of Gipsies are executed at Auschwitz.

August 12, 1944- 560 people massacred at Sant'anna Di Stazzema, Italy.

December 17, 1944- 81 American P.O.W.s executed at Malmedy.

December, 1944- The SS kills hundreds in the Stavelot region of Belgium. One massacre on the 22 of December saw 22 people executed in a small shed.

January 1945- All remaining Jews at the Chelmo camp are executed by the SS.

April 23, 1945- SS commits final massacre of Jews.

August, 2000- Neo Nazis petrol bomb a refugee hostel, injure 10 Jewish immigrants, murder an African man in east Germany and a homeless immigrant and set fire to a synagogue.

Gessler & Guarded, you apologists sicken me. I really wish i could force pictures of the mass graves, of torture and children dying from starvation into you heads until you puke. May the ghosts of the millions innocent dead haunt your dreams.May I add a picture of a lampshade made of human skin? I distinctly remember that one as the most disgusting one when I visited Sachsenhausen.

<snip>Thank you. :)

I wouldn't consider Stalin as evil as Hitler. Stalin was paranoid, but Hitler was obsessed with purging unwanted peoples.
Nah. Only killed 20million+ citizens of his own country because they were Jewish or "traitors" (read: They had opinions of their own).

That's some serious understatement there. I know nobody who actually thinks Hitler did something good to advance the world.
Hrm. Rocketry, jet planes, modern tactics in warfare... There are ALOT of advances that Nazi Germany invented or improved on vastly.

Hrm. Rocketry, jet planes, modern tactics in warfare... There are ALOT of advances that Nazi Germany invented or improved on vastly.

actually the brits also devoloped the jet planes and rocketry only allowed russia and america to make empty threats at each other
NUKES

This thread comes from gessler, who talked about how evil women were who got abortions are.

But hitler wasnt that bad.

Nah. Only killed 20million+ citizens of his own country because they were Jewish or "traitors" (read: They had opinions of their own).You missed the gypsies, homosexuals, christians, and a lot of others.


Hrm. Rocketry, jet planes, modern tactics in warfare... There are ALOT of advances that Nazi Germany invented or improved on vastly.
Aside from jet planes, how have these really done more good than harm?

This thread comes from gessler, who talked about how evil women were who got abortions are.

But hitler wasnt that bad.
It's also noteworthy that said person isn't around to defend his/her supposition.

Hitler was a genius, and that cannot be denied. No stupid short Austrian man would be able to command such a power for as long as Hitler did. Hitler was a terrible man even still, but he was also a genius.

And before the jet engine thing dissolves into an argument, the British designed it first and the Germans were the first to successfully fly a plane utilizing jet engines.

actually as far as i know jet planes when armed rockets when armed and war tactics all cause ......err....let me geuss

DEATH,DEATH and err yeah DEATH

actually as far as i know jet planes when armed rockets when armed and war tactics all cause ......err....let me geuss

DEATH,DEATH and err yeah DEATH


Guns don't kill people, people do.

Just read through this forum and i think that you're all forgetting one small detail. Stalin may have killed more people, but he did have a lot longer to do it. Hitler killed 6 million jews (out of 8 million in europe) in the space of 2 or 3 years before he commited suicide when the Russians stormed Berlin. Had he have had a more successfull war, milllions more would have been killed, not least anybody who supported communism in Russia. Stalin had a free reign to kill for over 30 years, hitler not even 10.

he he really wasnt all that bad

Aside from jet planes, how have these really done more good than harm?

Space exploration?

<snip>

Oh, a fellow Marxist-Leninist Party member! ...almost. :rolleyes:

...and thread-wise, where is Sino?

he he really wasnt all that bad

WHAT!? hitler not that bad, hitler not that bad :headbang: . so ur sayin i wont get in much trouble if i go get a shot gun and start shooting jews

:mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5:

you're joking right. Hitler was scum, Stalin was scum, Thatcher is scum. They are just different degrees of scum. And for God sake, killing however many people he did just to fault the advance of Communism! :( come on?

Space exploration?How does space exploration outweigh the death and destruction caused by ballistic missiles? (More good than harm..?)
Oh, a fellow Marxist-Leninist Party member! ...almost.

...and thread-wise, where is Sino?He asked for advice on how to get off of NationStates because of studies... or maybe he got forum-banned...

you're joking right. Hitler was scum, Stalin was scum, Thatcher is scum. They are just different degrees of scum. And for God sake, killing however many people he did just to fault the advance of Communism! :( come on?


yes, and I find it a bit absurd to compare Hitler and Stalin like, "Stalin killed 20 million people (+the same amount deported), Hitler killed only 15 million!"

It's a huge number, all the same! Also, some experts estimate that Hitler actually caused some 60 million deaths during WWII. Oh yeah, that's not so bad...

to be honest it led to the most warlike countrysin the world getting nuclear missles (im talkin about the late soviet union and the USA)
Mean why not give alqueda a ICBM

yes, and I find it a bit absurd to compare Hitler and Stalin like, "Stalin killed 20 million people (+the same amount deported), Hitler killed only 15 million!"

It's a huge number, all the same! Also, some experts estimate that Hitler actually caused some 60 million deaths during WWII. Oh yeah, that's not so bad...

And estimates for Stalin's purges vary anywhere from 8 million to 50 million. So you could reasonably argue that Hitler killed more people than Stalin.

to be honest it led to the most warlike countrysin the world getting nuclear missles (im talkin about the late soviet union and the USA)
Mean why not give alqueda a ICBM

What does al Qaeda have anything to do with Hitler, Stalin, and the USSR?

This thread comes from gessler, who talked about how evil women were who got abortions are.

But hitler wasnt that bad.

I disagreed with his treatment of the Jews, its in the original post if you care to go back and actually look.

What does al Qaeda have anything to do with Hitler, Stalin, and the USSR?
im using a modern example you dont give people who want to cause death weapons of mass destruction
does no one get me :headbang:

I disagreed with his treatment of the Jews, its in the original post if you care to go back and actually look.Hitler wasn't a bad person because he hated jews. He was a bad person that hated jews.

he he really wasnt all that bad
If you really believe that, would you like to be submitted to some of the methods of the Third reich?
Lets see, i find you disagreeing with my oppinion, but i think you deserve another chance. So its just some brownskirts beating you up and humiliating you in public, to seperate you from the support of your neighbours and colleagues. A rumour here and there, about you being a communist and having this intense friendship with the gay looking jew next street.
Too bad for you that you did not see how mercyfull i have been, because someone denounced you talking subversive things some days later. The next morning you come to work, your job is given to a proper aryan patriot. But dont worry, the SS is already here to take you away, and your family will be relocated just now. If you cooperate you might even see them again. That is, if you survive long enough, our interrogation specialists play a bit rough sometimes. And they live long enough, the conditions in the chemical factory arent too good and the food isnt plenty. But dont worry, its only a work camp and Doctor Mengele is a really swell physician...

he he really wasnt all that bad
i figureed it out your a NAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

im using a modern example you dont give people who want to cause death weapons of mass destruction
does no one get me :headbang:

Nobody gave the USSR or the USA nuclear weapons, they developed them on their own and built massive amounts of them during the Cold War era, which has no bearing on the topic at hand which is primarily about Hitler with a dash of Stalin added in.

Ok i got 1 thing to say for everyone who thinks hitler should die and is evil:good on you
and everyone who thinks he is misunderstood not that bad i just have 1 thing to say :NAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody gave the USSR or the USA nuclear weapons, they developed them on their own and built massive amounts of them during the Cold War era, which has no bearing on the topic at hand which is primarily about Hitler with a dash of Stalin added in.

Theres recent evidence that the German scientists were alot closer to cracking nuclear fission etc previously than thought, the Americans and Russians may have got there just in time unfortunately.

Ok i got 1 thing to say for everyone who thinks hitler should die and is evil:good on you
and everyone who thinks he is misunderstood not that bad i just have 1 thing to say :NAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because they dont believe he was completely evil doesnt make them a Nazi.

Ok i got 1 thing to say for everyone who thinks hitler should die and is evil:good on you
and everyone who thinks he is misunderstood not that bad i just have 1 thing to say :NAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im not a Nazi.

Im not a Nazi.
i know cause your really a NEONAZI

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a192/a192.gif

i know cause your really a NEONAZI

Im not a Neonazi either.
People who shout to get their point over, rarely have one to begin with.
Pearls before swine. :rolleyes:

Jews are just one of the many victims of Hitler's cruelty. Hitler wanted a so called perfect race: the arian. That is both utopian and ridiculous, and no leader should even dream about it. Difference is the word.

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a192/a192.gif

Springtime! For Hitler, and Germany!

Im not a Nazi.You had me fooled.

Springtime! For Hitler, and Germany!

Someone had to post that. It was inevitable, I was just the first to.

Possibly the best musical/film ever!

Winter for Poland and France

Im not a Neonazi either.
People who shout to get their point over, rarely have one to begin with.
Pearls before swine. :rolleyes:
hmmm your americas enemy
YOU FREE-FRENCH-OIL-RICH-COMMI-JAPI-NAZI-ARAB-AMERICAN-DICTATOR ok i think thats all of americas enemy .... well they have so many

Thank you for stretching the topic, I'm going to whine about it to the moderators because I'm hedonistic and don't like having to scroll over to the right to reply, and I'm running 1600x1200.

Hitler wasn't a bad person because he hated jews. He was a bad person that hated jews.

Yes. Very true. And that isn't disrespectful to Jews but think of al the cover they get. He also hated Homosexuals, Gypsies, Mentally Ill people (the list goes on and on)

I voted 'no', but don't get any impressions about me being a Nazi. Hitler is misunderstood because I personally believe he was not evil. Rather, he was totally insane. I can't see any person possibly being able to kill that many people without being totally and utterly mad.

And in response to the question about good things Hitler did, he solved the unemployment crisis in Germany, built Autobahns and brought Germany out of their economic depression.

But I do not sympathise with him, because what he did was unforgivable.

Just my view.Please don't abuse me.

-Adolf Hitler was Time magazine's person of the year in 1938
-Joseph Stalin was person of the year in 1939 and 1942

I do agree with those who also say stalin is bad
i mean first he liberates the areas from germany then he goes and takes 'em over i mean what the hell is up with that

-Adolf Hitler was Time magazine's person of the year in 1938
-Joseph Stalin was person of the year in 1939 and 1942
Should be pointed out here that the TIME 'person of the year' is the most influential person during that year, not necessarily the 'best'. Unless advertisers get in the way, as happened in 2001 when they were going to name Osama bin Laden, as he was definitely the most influential person of 2001.

What I find particularly ironic is that the arians came from the middle east and conquered India. Not exactly the sources of blondness or blue-eyed-ness.

And in response to the question about good things Hitler did, he solved the unemployment crisis in Germany, built Autobahns and brought Germany out of their economic depression.


1) He solved the unemployment problem by a) killing millions of people and B) putting people to work building autobahns.
2) He built autobahns so he could use the blitzkrieg technique when invading other countires so he could then kill millions more people.
3) He brought Germany out of economic depression via methods 1 & 2.

1) He solved the unemployment problem by a) killing millions of people and B) putting people to work building autobahns.

And armaments.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.
You may have a point its not like he signed a Final Solution.

Lets all blame The Chicken Farmer-Himmler

hitler wasnt THAT bad, but he WAS a prick of magnificence.
as i said, he wasnt as bad as the propagandic educational system would like us to believe, but he was still one heck of an arse.

:rolleyes: And like his book didn't spell out what he wanted to do to begin with.
Well actualy Mein Kampf is full of Flip-Flops just like the dealings of World and National Leaders in how they viewed him.
Remember Time magazine 1938.
Berlin Olympics
British Royalty
Short Arsed French Guy Petain
Everyone Loves Hitler.

I did say he was that bad because he was what he was if people chose to answer the Poll incorrectly thats their choice.
Everything Hitler did he did everything he didnt he didnt.

He led the most evil and genocidal government in history.

I think every normal person understands that!

Nah mate, STALIN led the most evil and genocidal goverment in history, but hitler comes in at a close second :P

Hitler was bad, but he wouldn't have been given the time of day if Germany was as driven such appalling circumstances by the Allies of the First War. He promised the people what they desperately needed at that time: economic security.

Would George Bush be given the licence by his people to wage this pre-emptive war against terror (at all costs) if the Americans did not genuinely feel threatened by the sign of their times? Nutcases abound, but its a desperate society that places them in charge.

Nah mate, STALIN led the most evil and genocidal goverment in history, but hitler comes in at a close second :P
Nah il give Second place to Mao.
Hitler gets 3rd

[QUOTE=Tannenmille]Hitler was a genius, and that cannot be denied. No stupid short Austrian man would be able to command such a power for as long as Hitler did. Hitler was a terrible man even still, but he was also a genius.

Hitler was definitely NOT a genius. He was that stupid enough to invade Russia repeating Napoleon's mistake and declaring war on America when it had no obligation to do so. The Nazis could have very well conquered Europe if it had not waged war on these foreign superpowers.

His only stroke of genius seems to be in the way he rised to power how carefully planned out his second attempt at taking over the Weimar Republic of Germany which he succeeded. They say he was a great orator.

He also won the hearts of some bitter Germans over the Versaiiles Treaty which blamed Germany completely for World War I which several powers were involved set off by a chain of events.

I will not deny that Germany had some of the most advanced technology back then in World War II, for example the world's first assault rifle, the
MG-42 which possibly still has the fastest rate of fire on earth at 1200 Rounds per minute, 1800 Rounds per minute in some versions of this machine gun.

At this rate of fire you can't even disinguish the sound of the bullets going off! It sounds like cloth being ripped.

Also the first kind of rocketry.

Surely it was a hell of a hard war for the Allies to win facing off against that kind of weaponry.

This was certainly NOT the work of Hitler but the work of German engineers and scientists back then.

Hitler was also a maniac, resources that could of gone to his war efforts were instead diverted to kill non-Germans.

An utter waste of valuable ammo, poison gas, oil, time, was well as humans.
The Germans could of used them against the Allies if they forcibly drafted those they conquered.

Nah il give Second place to Mao.
Hitler gets 3rd
i was considering mao, whaddya say we split the 2nd place between hitler and mao, and then gives the third to franco, or maybe the pope during the crusades? (i know the vatican isnt a government, but at the time it was acctually MORE powerful than any government, so i think it counts)

Socialy, Stalin was insane. However he was an economical genious. Hitler was the devil on earth. The guy that started this, can't remeber his name, have you actually read anything by Marx? Do you know who Marx is? Before you go about saying communism is evil, you should first understand it.

[QUOTE=Tannenmille]Hitler was a genius, and that cannot be denied. No stupid short Austrian man would be able to command such a power for as long as Hitler did. Hitler was a terrible man even still, but he was also a genius.

Hitler was definitely NOT a genius. He was that stupid enough to invade Russia repeating Napoleon's mistake and declaring war on America when it had no obligation to do so. The Nazis could have very well conquered Europe if it had not waged war on these foreign superpowers.

His only stroke of genius seems to be in the way he rised to power how carefully planned out his second attempt at taking over the Weimar Republic of Germany which he succeeded. They say he was a great orator.

He also won the hearts of some bitter Germans over the Versaiiles Treaty which blamed Germany completely for World War I which several powers were involved set off by a chain of events.

I will not deny that Germany had some of the most advanced technology back then in World War II, for example the world's first assault rifle, the
MG-42 which possibly still has the fastest rate of fire on earth at 1200 Rounds per minute, 1800 Rounds per minute in some versions of this machine gun.

At this rate of fire you can't even disinguish the sound of the bullets going off! It sounds like cloth being ripped.

Also the first kind of rocketry.

Surely it was a hell of a hard war for the Allies to win facing off against that kind of weaponry.

This was certainly NOT the work of Hitler but the work of German engineers and scientists back then.

Hitler was also a maniac, resources that could of gone to his war efforts were instead diverted to kill non-Germans.

An utter waste of valuable ammo, poison gas, oil, time, was well as humans.
The Germans could of used them against the Allies if they forcibly drafted those they conquered.

oy lad, Hitler WAS acctually a genius of magnitude, but he was ALSO a maniac, and thats what people remember him by, the psychotic disillousioned lunatic, instead of the extremely intelligent leader, who lead germany out of poverty and unemployment. (im NOT pro-hitler, i think he's a total arse, but you have to look at BOTH sides of the case to be able to create an opinion about it)

about the german economy, one might want to know about Dr. Horace Greely Hjalmar Schacht who was german financial expert and Minister of Economics from 1935 until 1937. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjalmar_Schacht)

Most importantly: As Minister of Economics under hitler, He supported public works programs similar to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's New Deal most notably the construction of the Autobahn to attempt to alleviate unemployment - policies which had been instituted in Germany under legislation drawn-up by Kurt von Schleicher's government in late 1932, and had in turn influenced Roosevelt's policies.

Socialy, Stalin was insane. However he was an economical genious. Hitler was the devil on earth. The guy that started this, can't remeber his name, have you actually read anything by Marx? Do you know who Marx is? Before you go about saying communism is evil, you should first understand it.
Hitler Went Mad
Stalin Started off Mad!

If anyone should be blamed for WWII it should be the US Congress for rejecting the LN.

And Wilson for looking at the Books and realising WWI had cost the World a Frotune and trying to fid someone to blame.

Socialy, Stalin was insane. However he was an economical genious. Hitler was the devil on earth. The guy that started this, can't remeber his name, have you actually read anything by Marx? Do you know who Marx is? Before you go about saying communism is evil, you should first understand it.
YES!!! EXACTLY!!! dude, you've earned my unrestricted LOVE!!!!
im sooo tired of being harassed everytime i say that im a communist! "mini-stalin" "how do you think its going over there in ruski-land" etc etc.!!!!
im going to erect a 40m tall statue of you on times square within the year!
:D:D:D:D:D:D

i was considering mao, whaddya say we split the 2nd place between hitler and mao, and then gives the third to franco, or maybe the pope during the crusades? (i know the vatican isnt a government, but at the time it was acctually MORE powerful than any government, so i think it counts)
I wont Blame any of the Popes.

But ill Hate The Dodge of Venice and Really it was the 'Prince's' of Europe that commited the crimes for Money not for Gods Glory.

Hitler can be 2nd even i guess.

I'd say Hitler was as bad as he's made out to be...even worse really since as a Fascist I believe that his racism and discrimination ruined it for the rest of us.

I'd say Hitler was as bad as he's made out to be...even worse really since as a Fascist I believe that his racism and discrimination ruined it for the rest of us.
Nazi :mp5:

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

You really are a fucked up loser aren't you ? Got your jackboots out ready for the weekend ?

I wont Blame any of the Popes.

But ill Hate The Dodge of Venice and Really it was the 'Prince's' of Europe that commited the crimes for Money not for Gods Glory.
That makes no sense. The Borgias were nobles of Venice as well as popes, and among the worst ever, poisoning political enemies, bribing themselves into offices, engaging in large-scale nepotism, warmongery, violent anti-semitism, corruption of the church, falsification and unbelievable decadence. I, and just about any historian specialising in popes, put a lot of blame on those. The RCC itself has stricken two Borgia popes from the books, the line of traditional names has been disturbed twice and one other pope had the doubtfull honour to be forced to abdicate.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.
Adolph Hitler was exactly as the history books depict him ( Um ... you can read, yes? ): a demented, paranoid, psychotic bully whose only claim to fame is that he was a poor to mediocre artist who couldn't get into a decent art school and turned to wallpapering to make a poverty level income, who had to struggle to rise to the exhaulted rank of Corporal in the German military, and who wrote an almost unreadable book, the title of which sounds like he was having problems with constipation.

I understand why Hitler blamed the Jews for everything: you need an internal enemy as well as an external (in this case communism) in order to make the people paranoid enough to be on your side. Why he decided to kill them is beyond me: like one of the Nazi big-shots (Gobbels?) said, it did nothing but tait German history for all times. Even disregardning moral issues, it must have cost a lot, not to mention that killing able bodied men when you suffer from a lack of soldiers is kind of retarded. In fact, most moves made by him near the end of the war were quite stupid.
Besides, if you read Mein Kampf Hitler basically spells out that he doesn't believe in any of the bullshit he was spilling out, and just made it up to gain power. If I were him, I would've struck a nice little deal with the Jews: ask them for financial aid, and to play the bad guy for a while, like go out and admit that all I say is true, and then give 'em Isreal for the trouble.

I'd say Hitler was as bad as he's made out to be...even worse really since as a Fascist I believe that his racism and discrimination ruined it for the rest of us.

I agree. While not exactly a fascist, I do adhere to some fascistic ideas(elitism, anti-democracy, etc.) and Hitler, and above all Mussolinis (sp?) betrayal to his initial ideas (i.e. stop Hitler) , have really messed it up for us. I mean, WTF did he do that for?? His friggin girlfriend was a Jew and she basically started the Fascist Party!

Nazi :mp5:

Communist!

See, I can make claims without a basis in reality too.

original from Latiatis:
" I am a FASCIST.
FASCIST are NOT NAZIs.
Please understand this and not call me a Nazi."

did you know that Antimarxism, Antiliberalism, Nationalism, violence and Propaganda are characteristics for fascism??? (referring to the historian Ernst Nolte)

and the only difference between fascism and nationalsocialism that it includes racism and anti-Semitism???

To begin with i would also like to blame America for WW2 (League of Nations) and say Stalin was worse. However they both have good and bad points. I.E Stalin- 5 Year plans- Brought industry to the 20th century/great human cost,

Then we must compare the death toll, which would be worse for a country assumeing roughly the same number of people were killed, The Purges or the Holocaust. i want to hear your reasoning.

We're all to blame! Oh, the humanity!

I'd say Hitler was as bad as he's made out to be...even worse really since as a Fascist I believe that his racism and discrimination ruined it for the rest of us.

So you are a faschist and you dont discriminate.................hmmmm. You sir are an idiot. And yes, shout 'commie' at me. Left and Proud.

"kill six million jews, kill another six million other people I don't like, start the largest war in human history as the aggressor, violate countless wartime treaties on the treatment of civilians and prisoners, kill millions of of the other sides citizens and soldiers and get millions of your own citizens and soldiers killed. All the while losing it all."

Sure, I don't understand that in the slightest, chiefly because it's FUCKING INSANE.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

Shite, shite, shite, sh-shite, shite shite

The only "misunderstanding" about Hitler is the relentless labelling of him as a "madman".
You don't get to be absolute ruler of one of the most powerful industrialized societies in the world by being crazy or stupid.
He wasn't a "madman", he was a plain, old-fashioned, cruel, vindictive, bullying sonofabitch who also happened to be irredeemably evil and diabolically cunning. Fortunately, he was one of those people who are so convinced of their own intellectual superiority that he was utterly incapable of adapting his behavior once his hand had been shown.
As bad as Stalin? Easily, no contest, those two pricks were brothers at heart.
But it is dangerous to think of Hitler as a "madman", since it trivializes his behavior and places it in the category of 20th-21st Century "relativism"... look at this thread, already we have people who think Hitler is getting "a raw deal" from historians. Who's next on the re-consideration list? Jeffrey Dahmer? Papa Doc Duvalier? Pol Pot?!?
To paraphrase a succinct line from an otherwise forgettable film*:
"I wanted to cut you some slack because I figured you were trying to work through your own troubles. But I was wrong about you. You're not crazy. You're mean."
Goesingthall
*"Good Morning, Viet Nam"

I think hitler is perfectly well understood- a genius, but horribly f***ed up at the same time. Altogether, the vast majority of people would view him as landing somewhere considerably below the line of good taste, good ideas or not.

He was no genius, just an incredibly charismatic neurotic f***-up.

Arguing that Hitler was misunderstood because he wasn't as bad as Stalin is just pathetic.

I can't believe that this thread is still up. He was ambitious, but evil. That's all there is to it. Now let's get off the topic and move on.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.
Woah. This represents a serious misunderstanding of history and a clear transferance of blame in an attempt to make an argument.

1) No other nation is responsible for Germany's treatment of Jews. Even though everyone else refused to take Germany's Jews, it does not give Germany the right to commit genocide. Period. Hitler led those actions and is squarely to blame.

2) Yea, Stalin was a real piece of garbage, too. It does not absolve Hitler or make him a hero in any way. Even though Hitler was against Communism, it doesn't make his brand of insanity okay! That's like saying that a child molester isn't all that bad as long as he's against murder.

Hitler was crazy and evil, but who would have bothered with him if not for the Treaty of Versailles that basically drove Germany to desperate poverty. Anti-semitism is not a German invention. In the same tone, why would an individual like Osama Bin Laden attract so many followers if not for American imperialism. Or a simpleton like G. Bush get re-elected, if the American public do not have something to fear. The world's full of crazies. Its those with the good PR team that get elected.

I do agree with those who also say stalin is bad
i mean first he liberates the areas from germany then he goes and takes 'em over i mean what the hell is up with that
Well. Gotta look at it from Russia's historical point of view. They'd been invaded by European powers a few times over the past century and a half (Napoleanic Wars, WWI and WWII) and now there was a clear distrust between the Soviets and the Western powers (European and USA).

So, the notion of having a buffer zone between himself and the perceived enemy kinda makes sense...if there's going to be another war, make the battlefield be someone else's territory and not your own. That doesn't make it right, but I can see the motiviation.

I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.


Bullshit. Just because they don't leave doesn't mean you kill them all. And he was even killing the ones out of Germany! This was an evil, evil man. He deserved worse then he got.

First off, Hitler is NOT misunderstood: anyone who kills millions in genocide using things like the gas chamber and the guillotine is an evil man. The gas chamber was the most widely used, but he did use the guillotine quite a bit, killing around 10-thousand people with it (France only killed around 2,800 with it in their revolution). Just because a race of people does not leave their country does not mean you need to kill every last one of them. Second off, Hitler would never have allied with the Allies and went to war with Russia- he hated both France and Britain. Now, I am not going to say that Stalin was a saint, but he was a better person to ally with than Hitler (he did not have millions killed by genocide after all). Now, to go compleatly away from his political career, Hitler's niece commited suicide, mainly because he was overly obsessed with her, to the point of shooting any of her boyfriends. Hitler was crazy, though I can understand why, after all, he was a victom of mustard gas in WW1.

Even disregardning moral issues, it must have cost a lot, not to mention that killing able bodied men when you suffer from a lack of soldiers is kind of retarded.
Not exactly true. After time, the Nazis refined thier killing machine to the point that they actaully made money off of genocide. Between forced labor, confiscated possessions and some rather other grotesque stuff, the Nazis actually calcualted that they turned a small profit on carrying out the exterminations.

Get the book 2194 Days of War. In it, there is a photocopy of a document where they actually show the calculation. Quite chilling when you realize what the numbers actually represent.

In fact, most moves made by him near the end of the war were quite stupid.
Agreed. But also bear in mind that there were a couple of things driving him toward a further degree of insanity....
1) Being surrounded by people who treat you as a God will make you demented.
2) He was on a variety of chemical substances.

Dear God. I thought this thread was a joke when I first read the title. How exactly you can say a person who committed racial genocide on an unprecedented scale, as well as starting a war that killed 45 million people, is 'misunderstood'? How can you blame other countries for not taking the exiled Jewish population? 'Oh, he didn't want to kill them to start off with'. Oh, well that's ok then. As long as genocide was only his second option. :mad:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/bornoffire/hitlermelon8.gif

Hitler also liked watermelon.

Of Hitler and Stalin Hitler was the lesser of two evils.

Still, evil is evil.

I'd say Hitler was as bad as he's made out to be...even worse really since as a Fascist I believe that his racism and discrimination ruined it for the rest of us.

Dude wht is up with sig? Facisits are just as bad as Nazis. I refuse to belive inany political ideology that is based on ignorance/racism/hatred.

Okay, this is my first (and probably last) post in General. I see a lot of questionable stuff here, so I dont know if my post will be taken seriously, but I just wanted to say some stuff, please be kind enough not to flame me for honest observations.

Was Hitler a mass murderer? Very likely. He killed a few million, either by concentration camps, or by marching them to their deaths on either front.

Was Hitler German? No, I am tired of this misconception. I dont know if anyone mentioned it here, but he was an Austrian.

Was Hitler psychotic? Perhaps. For all historophiles out there, you would know that Hitler had wanted to be an artist after he returned from action in WWI. He applied to an art college in Wien (Vienna) where they said his art wasn't good enough, and kicked him out. He spent living several years as a bum in said city, kept alive by Jewish soup kitchens, all the while wishing he could die. This is where is hatred of Jews came from, well, that and he used them as a scapegoat to gain power. After then Anschluß the first thing he did was order the college leveled and salted, so you can tell he wasn't happy about it.

Now, was Hitler all that bad? No, I don't think he was. He has... what, 6.3 million deaths that can be attributed to him? Stalin of the USSR has over 12 million at a rough estimate from his purges. Why a rough estimate? Because the USSR didn't keep records of who they killed. He did do wonders for the ecconomy as well. How many nations came out of the Depression either in his initial military build-up, or as a reaction to it? Now, I have other stuff to say, but I am favoring not saying it to avoid a lynch mob... but rest assured, I am in no way a Nazi, I just think Hitler gets a worse rap than he gets.

-Ardent American who is GERMAN (IE, Great-Grandparents were in Kaiser's Germany, fled after WWI)

EDIT: Oh and Peopleita, Facists dont base their party off hatred or racism. It is just extreme nationalism.

EDIT-AGAIN: Thanks to the poster below me... I was too lazy to run a speel-chaker! And to the one two below me, websites vary greatly in their number, I went with what my Western Civ book said, though that was like 20-years old before the wall came down. Anyway, 2-other things I am adding... He added some positive things to the world, 1) The Autobahn was the basis for the Eisenhower Interstate System, and 2) Volkswagon... though I could do without out Farfigneuton (sp?) {The Joy of Driving}

anshclutz (sp?) The correct spelling would be "Anschluss" although you can still spell it "Anschluß" in Bavaria and NRW... :p

Isn't it closer to 12 million?

Man, I hope this is just a troll. The idea that Hitler isn't so bad because Stalin killed more people is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. By that standard, nobody was bad except for Mao, who killed more people than Stalin and Hitler combined. John Wayne Gacy: not such a bad guy.

You have succeeded in shocking us. Good work. Go do your Algebra homework now.

The only "misunderstanding" about Hitler is the relentless labelling of him as a "madman".
You don't get to be absolute ruler of one of the most powerful industrialized societies in the world by being crazy or stupid.
He wasn't a "madman", he was a plain, old-fashioned, cruel, vindictive, bullying sonofabitch who also happened to be irredeemably evil and diabolically cunning. Fortunately, he was one of those people who are so convinced of their own intellectual superiority that he was utterly incapable of adapting his behavior once his hand had been shown.


I would say that Hitler in 1936 was not a madman, just an opportunistic bully like you said. I would also say that Hitler of 1942 was pretty insane. The pressure of fighting a losing war with the rest of Europe was wearing him down and there are tons of stories of his increasingly erratic and paranoid behavior.

I do have an argument with the "hitler was an evil genius" claim. Nothing he did strikes me as evidence of genius, just a combination of crude ambition, single-mindedness and being in the right place at the right time. The Nazi party were, to a man, a bunch of sleazy politicians, nutcases, megalomaniacs, and crude thugs looking for a quick and easy way into power and willing to jettison every bit of ethics to do so.

Was Hitler a loud-mouth malcontent? Sure.

Did he kill 6 million odd Jews and displace millions more? History says so.

He was in power for less than 10 years, and unlike Joseph Stalin, he was elected democratically, by the German folk.

To be elected, he'd have needed something to his platform, and that was charisma, and something to give the Germans - hope.

While Jews were his internal scapegoat, he also used commies as the external, because the original Bolshivieks, had within their ranks, some Jews. So, again, something for Hitler to hate the Jews about.

For the centuries before hand, dealing in money and loaning, wasn't the preferred profession of Catholics, and so, by default, because it was considered degrading, the job was given to Jews, (hence the conception at the time that Jews controlled the money and the economy).

Was he a genius? Maybe, maybe not.

He had some very good ideas. At first it seemed he had learned from the mistakes of WWI.

He also brought the population (as mentioned before) out of a depression, and this also furthered the development of such things as the Volks Wagon - the people's car. He wanted to give the German people an advantage.

However, in the process, he destroyed everything that made Germany distinct. Before he came along, Germany was a library of knowledge. But, Hitler circumvented it by burning that knowledge.

After all, knowledge is power, and if people are ignorant, they will believe you. why else were some professors taken off the job? They were empowering the German people and knowledge was something that worked against Hitler's agenda.

He knew one thing - how to get the people on his side.

Being a genius or having something of an IQ, doesn't stop a person from being insane in the membrane. It just helpes; it bcomes systematic insanity.

I wouldn't say he's bad, so much as he is a pathetic excuse for a human being. He is the absolute embodiment of our deepest hatred and desires to eliminate all that stands in our way. Many of us wish we could eliminate groups of people for different reasons, but we don't say so, whereas he did so.

He lacked a human soul. Without the soul, he is just a vessel, which is neither good or evil; it is just raw primitive urges, driven by mental issues.

His existance helped one thing - it helped invent some of our modern technologies or at least the prelude to such.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.



And people wonder why I mock moral relativism :rolleyes:

Dude wht is up with sig? Facisits are just as bad as Nazis. I refuse to belive inany political ideology that is based on ignorance/racism/hatred.


Hey now! Fascism is just extreme authoritarianism, mainly based on nationalism and what not! It is not what you said!

*reads through thread*

I... Agh... Grrruuuuugh...

*pukes*

If anyone should be blamed for WWII it should be the US Congress for rejecting the LN.

And Wilson for looking at the Books and realising WWI had cost the World a Frotune and trying to fid someone to blame.

*sigh* So much modern education lost on today's youth. (Assuming you are one, mind you.)

The League of Nations died when Congress refused to join, because mainly of recurrent isolationism. Debate over wether or not they would have actually been effective is beyond the scope of our short debate.

Wilson had nothing, in the end, to do with WWII. The French dictated the terms of the treaty of Versailles, and they were out for blood. Their terms of repartations and repayments were outrageous for a good economy, much less the global depression that hit in the 20's, which eventually caught up to America in the early 30's. With Germany's economy in the tank, and the vicious French still insisting on being paid (when GB and the US had forgiven most of their parts of the debt), it's no wonder a skilled politican like Hitler found fertile ground to grow.

If, and that's a big if, you want to "blame" someone, ask the French why they pushed Germany as hard as they did? When WWI ended, the conditions were set for WWII, it just took a bit for the fire to explode.

You really are a fucked up loser aren't you ? Got your jackboots out ready for the weekend ?
WARNED. Stop flaming.

So you are a faschist and you dont discriminate.................hmmmm. You sir are an idiot. And yes, shout 'commie' at me. Left and Proud.

Warned. Stop flaming.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

Yeah cause forcing the Jews out of their homes is such a nice kind & loving thing to do to the Jews.

They won't leave well hell. I guess were going to have to arrest them & put them in labor camps. Perform heinous scientific experiments 0on them & their children. Put them to work as slaves to build our war machines & if they are not good for that lets gas them & boil them down to make buttons & soap.

Yeah, what a swell guy that Adolf Hitler was. Stalin was a real swell guy too.
Why don't we go & have a parade for the both of them in honor of their charitable acts to Jews, Catholics, & other non-prodistant who just wanted to live peacefully in the community they build with hard work & persistance.

Comparing those two is like comparing Asmodeus to Mefistopheles. Hmmmmmm.....which hell prince is the nicer guy.

Was Hitler a loud-mouth malcontent? Sure.

Did he kill 6 million odd Jews and displace millions more? History says so.

He was in power for less than 10 years, and unlike Joseph Stalin, he was elected democratically, by the German folk.

To be elected, he'd have needed something to his platform, and that was charisma, and something to give the Germans - hope.

While Jews were his internal scapegoat, he also used commies as the external, because the original Bolshivieks, had within their ranks, some Jews. So, again, something for Hitler to hate the Jews about.

For the centuries before hand, dealing in money and loaning, wasn't the preferred profession of Catholics, and so, by default, because it was considered degrading, the job was given to Jews, (hence the conception at the time that Jews controlled the money and the economy).

Was he a genius? Maybe, maybe not.

He had some very good ideas. At first it seemed he had learned from the mistakes of WWI.

He also brought the population (as mentioned before) out of a depression, and this also furthered the development of such things as the Volks Wagon - the people's car. He wanted to give the German people an advantage.

However, in the process, he destroyed everything that made Germany distinct. Before he came along, Germany was a library of knowledge. But, Hitler circumvented it by burning that knowledge.

After all, knowledge is power, and if people are ignorant, they will believe you. why else were some professors taken off the job? They were empowering the German people and knowledge was something that worked against Hitler's agenda.

He knew one thing - how to get the people on his side.

Being a genius or having something of an IQ, doesn't stop a person from being insane in the membrane. It just helpes; it bcomes systematic insanity.

I wouldn't say he's bad, so much as he is a pathetic excuse for a human being. He is the absolute embodiment of our deepest hatred and desires to eliminate all that stands in our way. Many of us wish we could eliminate groups of people for different reasons, but we don't say so, whereas he did so.

He lacked a human soul. Without the soul, he is just a vessel, which is neither good or evil; it is just raw primitive urges, driven by mental issues.

His existance helped one thing - it helped invent some of our modern technologies or at least the prelude to such.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

I would agree with a lot of this (although most of the technological and military accomplishments of the Third Reich had little to do with Hitler and everything to do with the Germans he had control over.) I don't think he was so incredibly charismatic as he is made out to be as much as he just had the gall to feed the people easy answers in a troubled time. People love anyone who does that. (cf. Axis of Evil, god wants us to win, etc.)

Also, I think you are splitting hairs at best, and at worst completely contradicting yourself, by saying "he's not bad, he's just an embodiment of our worst urges and had no soul".

February 27, 1933- The Nazis burn down the Reichstag and seize power in the consequent crisis. Persecution of German Jews begins.
<snip>



Umm... van der Lubbe, the guy who burnt it down, was a commie. No proof the Nazis had nothing to do with it, but then again, no proof the Nazis did. It's one of those things that historians argue about.

The only way that Hitler has been misunderstood is that some people credit him with too much intelligence. Hitler was an idiot. He overrode his generals time after time with disastrous results because he was convinced that he knew how to run the war better than they did. He wasted a tremendous amount of time, manpower and resources on putting Jews in concentration camps. He attacked the Soviet Union before he had wrapped up the Western front, dooming his nation to defeat. On the whole, as evil dictators go, he was an idiot.

:p

Also, I think you are splitting hairs at best, and at worst completely contradicting yourself, by saying "he's not bad, he's just an embodiment of our worst urges and had no soul".
Bad is better reserved to describe the behavioural actions of an insolent child, who throws a tantrum in public when he/she doesn't get his/her way.

Bad describes the taste of something you don't like.

To call Hitler bad is an understatement and a gross misuse of our very wide-sweeping vocabulary.

Umm... van der Lubbe, the guy who burnt it down, was a commie. No proof the Nazis had nothing to do with it, but then again, no proof the Nazis did. It's one of those things that historians argue about.The Nazis needed someone to blame and they blamed the commies. It could well be that they found a scapegoat for it. Find a good source and prove it was him, but otherwise its just Nazi propaganda.

The Nazis needed someone to blame and they blamed the commies. It could well be that they found a scapegoat for it. Find a good source and prove it was him, but otherwise its just Nazi propaganda.
They did love their scapegoats.

Such as...

To justify invading Poland, the stole a bunch of Polish military uniforms and attacked their own emote outpost near the Polish border... :rolleyes:

They did love their scapegoats.

Such as...

To justify invading Poland, the stole a bunch of Polish military uniforms and attacked their own emote outpost near the Polish border... :rolleyes:The Gestapo guy that lead it never got caught either :mad:

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

Yeah your absolutely right! he gave them the chance to leave and they did not.
I mean if i get a notice that the gov. is asking me to leave my country that i've lived in my entire life, and my family has been here for countless generations just because my beleifs are different, then i've got to go!
I should not be suprised if my shop gets closed down, i'm ridiculed in public and generally treated to scum, until i'm put to some good use like forced labour. And if i don't like it, well i'm sure they'd think of something fair and just to do to me.
AND if i do leave and stupid enough to go to the country next door, which gets invaded a few years later and my shop gets closed down, i'm ridiculed in public and generally treated to scum, until i'm put to some good use like forced labour... well my fault again.

Let's see:
He was going to try to take over the world.
He attack his own ally
He used vicious propoganda to get anything done
He sent people to death camps/labor camps for small offences, like speeding or blinking too much.
He was openly racist
He was a supporter of genocide

He sure is misunderstood. Some idiots think he wasn't evil and/or insane. They have such a misunderstanding.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.
Killing them off because he could not manage to deport people that had every right to be there does not make him any better then if he just killed them off

Either way he was responsible for their deaths

The only "misunderstanding" about Hitler is the relentless labelling of him as a "madman".
You don't get to be absolute ruler of one of the most powerful industrialized societies in the world by being crazy or stupid.

Actually, several reputable psychiatrists have posthumously diagnosed him (based on everything we know of his life) as a paranoid schizophrenic. I don't think this in any way lessens the evil of his actions, but to say he was entirely mentally stable is inaccurate.

As for the rest of this thread, some of you people's arguments baffle me. The idea that the evil of murder can be measured in sheer volume is just ridiculous to me. Murder is evil. You're not a better person because you only killed 15 million people instead of 20 million, and arguing whether Hitler or Stalin is somehow worse is a pointless exercise. They're both awful. End of story.

I am more astounded by those of you who have actually defended Hitler as "not that bad," though. As someone who would almost certainly have been sterilized or killed had I lived in the Third Reich, I'm a wee bit offended by that idea. The Nazi regime is not being given a bum rap. Genocide, forced eugenics, and extreme persecution are extraordinarily bad things. This really shouldn't require debate.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

Yeah, he was an effing hero in the all-encompassing fight against communism... That would probably be why he so bravely split up Poland with Russia. Made the world safe for capitalism he did!

my father comes from a jewish background..although I am not jewish by any stretch. Hitler should get absolutely NO Sympathy for anything. As far as im concerned.. he can rot in hell and be tortured for all eternity.The fucken bastard.

Umm... van der Lubbe, the guy who burnt it down, was a commie. No proof the Nazis had nothing to do with it, but then again, no proof the Nazis did. It's one of those things that historians argue about.

van der Lubbe was just a retarded person and probably just a scapegoat. The evidence against him was no more convincing than the evidence against the nazis. All of the evidence against van der Lubbe was discovered by nazi investigators, there was no independent investigation.

I disagreed with his treatment of the Jews, its in the original post if you care to go back and actually look.
His treatment of the jews, u make it sound like he wasnt very nice to them. bad Treatment of the jews doesnt cover what he did 2 them. How can u just ignore that and say he was a good guy? Firstly what good did he do for germany and the world, he may have built up germany again, but then he plunged the country back into war, and wrecked the ecomony again as well has splitting it into 4 blocks and as far as i know causing another world war is hardly a grat thing 2 do

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

Bull-fucking-shit.

1. He was not given a raw deal; both he, and Stalin are both portayed for the historical monsters they are.

2. Hitler was not brave... French Communism (The Libertaire) died long before Marx and his Comminist Manifesto emerged. Communism was of no threat in France: nor was it "looming".

3. If you admit he was wrong about the Jews; then you have a problem.

4. It does not matter if he "tried to get them out": He "Got them out" into nations which he later conqured to build more concentration camps; and confine more jews. There was no escape from this monster. AS he would have kept consuming everything with his form of structure which was BARELY different than Stalinist Russia.... Fascism is not very far removed from Stalinism; both seek control of the Government; one places governmental control over the corporations; and removed individual liberties; the other imparts corporate control over the government; and removed individual liberties. He didn't do anything "drastic" but replace Communism with Corporate Nationalism; both in Totalitarian Frameworks.

5. You can't blame someone for not taking refugees; which you agree he was wrong about in the first place.

6. Russia, at the time, was not trying to take over, and slaughter, significant portions of the populated world at the time.

7. Since US involvement was due to attack upon our soil by Axis powers (Japan); the US never would have became involved... At the time, there was no great "Us vs. them" concept of Communism... That didn't surface till AFTER the war.... In fact, notables like Patton and MacArthur; who wanted to yank down the Communist force; were considered almost insane at the time. Nazi actions took place in the 1930's; The Red-Scare did not surface untill (and because of occurances at the beginning of) the 1950's.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

What is wrong with you? THis animal is responsible for the extermination MURDERING of over SIX MILLION people of jewish descent. He almost totally destroyed the jewish population of poland. How can you defend him? I hope his rotten nasty ass is rotting in hell forever! Screw communism-its still around. YOu are comparing apples with oranges. It wasnt our business to smash Russia. I disagree with the murdering he did and that should have been made to answer for HIS crimes against humanity. But Hitler was an absolute MONSTER!!! Throwing living or GASSED human beings into incinerators is horrible. They yanked the gold out of their teeth, stole their property, shaved their heads and used their hair for selfish purposes, stole clothes etc. He degraded these people and did HORRIBLE experimentations on them. Auuggh!! NOBODY should defend this animal! :sniper: :mad:

van der Lubbe was just a retarded person and probably just a scapegoat. The evidence against him was no more convincing than the evidence against the nazis. All of the evidence against van der Lubbe was discovered by nazi investigators, there was no independent investigation.

True, but still, most of the evidence is pointing towards van der Lubbe. Communists weren't above buring things down, or even trying to take over Berlin. Just because the Nazis capitalised on it doesn't mean they planned for it- Frick and his deputies wrote the "Decree of the Reich President for the protection of people and state" which enabled Gleichschaltung that very night

Some evidence for and against Nazis involvement in the fire:


At Nuremberg, General Franz Halder claimed Göring had confessed to setting the fire: "At a luncheon on the birthday of Hitler in 1942, the conversation turned to the topic of the Reichstag building [fire] and its artistic value. I heard with my own ears when Göring interrupted the conversation and shouted: 'The only one who really knows about the Reichstag is I, because I set it on fire!' With that he slapped his thigh with the flat of his hand." [Possibly false due to hearsay]

Göring denied he had any involvement in the fire. "I had nothing to do with it. I deny this absolutely. I can tell you in all honesty, the Reichstag fire proved very inconvenient to us. After the fire I had to use the Krolloper House as the new Reichstag, and the opera seemed to me much more important than the Reichstag. I must repeat, no pretext was needed for taking measures against the Communists. I already had a number of perfectly good reasons in the forms of murders, etc." [Possibley false due to lies - those nazis were sneaky bastards]

did you know that Antimarxism, Antiliberalism, Nationalism, violence and Propaganda are characteristics for fascism??? (referring to the historian Ernst Nolte)

and the only difference between fascism and nationalsocialism that it includes racism and anti-Semitism???

I am aware of what Fascism is about. I'm not just going to claim I'm something without knowing what’s involved...Though calling them anti-Liberal is a bit off since there are both Liberal and Conservative ideas in Fascism.

Also, the modern, American, Fascist party is a lot less geared towards violence than the early Fascists.
And lastly, most political organizations use propaganda.

Dude wht is up with sig? Facisits are just as bad as Nazis. I refuse to belive inany political ideology that is based on ignorance/racism/hatred.
There is no policy of racism in non-Nazi Fascism,
Since a major idea of Fascism is anti-Marxism I can’t say we don’t hate.
I’m not even going to argue with you about ignorance since I already know I’ll never be able to change your mind about that.

gessler you're a cock if you're being serious. Yes stalin did terrible things too but nothing compared to hitler. You can't pass the blame to the rest of europe for what he and many other nazi's did. They are much worse than Russia. The only reason europe beat germany was thanks to Russia.

COMMUNISM IS THE ONLY WAY!

gessler you're a cock if you're being serious. Yes stalin did terrible things too but nothing compared to hitler. You can't pass the blame to the rest of europe for what he and many other nazi's did. They are much worse than Russia. The only reason europe beat germany was thanks to Russia.

COMMUNISM IS THE ONLY WAY!

Stalin was not a Nazi

You really are a fucked up loser aren't you ? Got your jackboots out ready for the weekend ?

Dear me, what an angry little ant you are.
Tell me where you live so I can come and paint a nice big swastika on your forehead. ;)

gessler you're a cock if you're being serious. Yes stalin did terrible things too but nothing compared to hitler. You can't pass the blame to the rest of europe for what he and many other nazi's did. They are much worse than Russia. The only reason europe beat germany was thanks to Russia.

COMMUNISM IS THE ONLY WAY!

Communism has caused ten times more death, misery and suffering than Nazism ever did.
Ignorant Cock. :rolleyes:

What is wrong with you? THis animal is responsible for the extermination MURDERING of over SIX MILLION people of jewish descent. He almost totally destroyed the jewish population of poland. How can you defend him? I hope his rotten nasty ass is rotting in hell forever! Screw communism-its still around. YOu are comparing apples with oranges. It wasnt our business to smash Russia. I disagree with the murdering he did and that should have been made to answer for HIS crimes against humanity. But Hitler was an absolute MONSTER!!! Throwing living or GASSED human beings into incinerators is horrible. They yanked the gold out of their teeth, stole their property, shaved their heads and used their hair for selfish purposes, stole clothes etc. He degraded these people and did HORRIBLE experimentations on them. Auuggh!! NOBODY should defend this animal! :sniper: :mad:

Can you actually read? I said I disagreed with his treatment of the Jews.

Yeah he was misunderstood. We didn't understand just how evil he was. He wasn't just a racist homicidal maniac - he was a genetic warrior who tried to exterminate that part of the human gene pool that he didn't like. Herrenvolk = the saved, untermench = the subhumans. This kind of crap still goes on today in Rwanda, Iraq and Bosnia. The children on sites like this who idolize Hitler should be glad they live in a Democracy where their stupid beliefs like theirs are tolerated. The only good war in history was the one where Soviet Communism and US Capitalism united to destroy the sick Nazi regime.

I've done my share of research on Hitler.

Sure once you lose his racism (Jew-hating), bigotry (white-supremicist), ignorance (Thinking of the Soviets as militarily weak), and his corrupt personality (grabbing power wherever he can), he's a, for lack of a better word, significant guy. And that's still an overstatement considering he used that significance of him to lie and sway the masses.

Can you actually read? I said I disagreed with his treatment of the Jews.

and what about all the other victims???
e.g. disabled person, and some Slavic folks etc???

[QUOTE=Tekania]Bull-fucking-shit.

Not really, history is always written by the victors remember.

Hitler was not brave...

He served in the trenches in WW1, and his courage was never under question.


If you admit he was wrong about the Jews; then you have a problem.

Huh? Are you saying he was right about slaughtering them?


It does not matter if he "tried to get them out": He "Got them out" into nations which he later conqured to build more concentration camps; and confine more jews.

The point is they were given the option in the early thirtys to leave, the smart ones saw things were going to get worse and left.
Also plans were made to conqure Madagasscar(sp) and resettle the Jews there, an admirable plan compared to what happened instead.

Fascism is not very far removed from Stalinism; both seek control of the Government; one places governmental control over the corporations; and removed individual liberties; the other imparts corporate control over the government; and removed individual liberties. He didn't do anything "drastic" but replace Communism with Corporate Nationalism; both in Totalitarian Frameworks.

Hitlers Germany rewarded industry etc let people get rich through bussiness, he still was a capitalist, which is nothing like communism which enslaves the whole country under the same wage no matter what they do for work, offerring no hope to get rich, it all goes to the state, and of course the fortunates running the state, pity they dont practice what they preach.

Russia, at the time, was not trying to take over, and slaughter, significant portions of the populated world at the time.

Only because they werent ready, Germany gave Stalin the excuse to mobilise Russia into a war machine, the allies werent too surprised when the Russian armys didnt retreat from the countrys they had 'liberated' from Germany.

and what about all the other victims???
e.g. disabled person, and some Slavic folks etc???

That was bad too, and totally unneccessary, although I couldnt care less about the homos.

Yeah he was misunderstood. We didn't understand just how evil he was. He wasn't just a racist homicidal maniac - he was a genetic warrior who tried to exterminate that part of the human gene pool that he didn't like. Herrenvolk = the saved, untermench = the subhumans. This kind of crap still goes on today in Rwanda, Iraq and Bosnia. The children on sites like this who idolize Hitler should be glad they live in a Democracy where their stupid beliefs like theirs are tolerated. The only good war in history was the one where Soviet Communism and US Capitalism united to destroy the sick Nazi regime.

Can war be good???

there were other ways to eliminate Hitler like Staufenbergs try to assassinate him and an following try of a coup but knowone from abroad tried or helped the interior resistance...

Can war be good???

there were other ways to eliminate Hitler like Staufenbergs try to assassinate him and an following try of a coup but knowone from abroad tried or helped the interior resistance...

They did actually.
Hitler was extremely well protected too, he wasnt just out strolling around some park.
He was always watched and people were watching those who watched him and so on.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v303/bornoffire/hitlermelon8.gif

Hitler also liked watermelon.

Actually he liked apples, and would always have one served to all his dinner guests.
The pics funny.

I dunno, something about picking the jews as a race.. sending them to fates worse then death in many areas around europe.. if its starvation, terrible medical experiements (injecting paint into eyes, removing testicles without any tranqs, etc..) slavery of the worse kind, burning alive, buring people alive, drowning them, gassing them, and this is all after imprisoning them in some of the worse places earth has ever seen in conditions the most wild animals wouldnt survive.. making them survive on no food at all, persecuting the jews all over the world (even in africa) killing those defenceless people who has no country, and no means to defend themselves (or even hide) as no country was willing to do anything to help the jews, not even the USA or the UK that refused to bomb the death camps (yes, its been proven they didnt).
Are you really thinking that Hitler was misunderstood? I'd send you myself if i could to a single day in Aushwitz, to see if you'd still think the same afterwards.

They did actually.
Hitler was extremely well protected too, he wasnt just out strolling around some park.
He was always watched and people were watching those who watched him and so on.

right but why was the german resistance never supported???
e.g. Claus Philip Maria Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg and his group were all in the system they were 19 generals, 26 colonels, 2 ambassadors, 7 Diplomats, 1 Minister, 3 State Secretary and the Cheef of the Reichskriminalpolizei and they even searched contact to the allies...

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

I really don't know how to reply to this thread you just seem so misguided.
I have come up with a number of scenarios for why you posted this thread:
a) you're ignorant of what went on
b) you're aware but want to provoke people
c) you're heartless and really believe Hitler got a raw deal.

I'm going to approach this as though a) is where you're coming from.

Firstly, I think it is immature for anyone to consider one individual's actions okay because there is someone who appears worse. I think that Hitler and Stalin both did some really evil shit. To talk about someone being the 'real villain' is to consider the world in a very hollywood black and white kind of way.

Secondly, since when does the end justify the means? How can you justify murdering 6million people to improve the economy?

Thirdly, in what way was he brave?

Fourthly, what are the dangers of communism? I think that it is a flawed system (just like captialism), but I would like to hear your arguments for how Hitler's despicable acts can be justified on thse grounds. Why was there a need to 'smash Russia'?

Finally, without debating the merits of whether he did try and get Jews out of Germany (I don't think he did but nevermind), why does this make him okay? Because you think he gave them some kind of fighting chance? By telling them to 'run' before he tries to exterminate them.
Also, I find it disappointing that 'the Jews' and European people are considered separate. The Jews in Germany were German nationals. The Jews in Poland were Polish nationals and so on. The fact is he killed innocent people.... and I don't think you can justify this on any grounds...its just wrong and Hitler was just wrong....

How has he been given a raw deal??

Maybe I've misunderstood you. Maybe you were trying to say (in a very inarticulate way) that there are lots of other 'evil' people in the world and they should be given some of Hitler's notoriety. I agree with that. We should be aware of all people who commit genocide, murder innocent people, whether it be in the Balkans, Rwanda, Russia, Germany or any other country.

Are you really thinking that Hitler was misunderstood? I'd send you myself if i could to a single day in Aushwitz, to see if you'd still think the same afterwards.

Get off the Jews thing will you, like Ive said to four other posters, I dont like one bit what happenned to the Jews.
Hitler should never have attacked France or any nations on his west side, and should have left the Poles alone, except for taking a corridor of land off them to move his forces through to attack Russia. With all Germanys armed might concentrated on Communist Russia, he would have easily conqured them. America and Britain seeing a potential enemy taken out and no European nations or their interests under threat, would have concentrated soley on Japan.
The might of the British Empire and America, soley focused on Japan, would have wiped them out as a threat easily within a year
Hitler could have turned Germany into a world power by taking Russia as his lebenstraum only during the fortys.
If he done this and sat on it for a decade or two his position of power would have been safer, as one huge enemy is nullified, then safer conquests can be made.
But he tried to win everywhere at once, and so failed.
Conquest is like Chess, use well thought out strategy, to take the other pieces out slowly, you dont try to take all the pieces at once.

[QUOTE=Olearia]I really don't know how to reply to this thread you just seem so misguided.
I have come up with a number of scenarios for why you posted this thread:
a) you're ignorant of what went on
b) you're aware but want to provoke people
c) you're heartless and really believe Hitler got a raw deal.[QUOTE]

I forgot one:
d) maybe you're a Holocaust denier, in which case you're both a) and c).

I hope everyone's replies on this thread, especially the ones about how many people and the way in which they were killed has enlightened you a little.
Otherwise, maybe you should read some books/watch some documentaries about the Holocaust...

I sincerely hope you will change your mind, it would be terrible for you to spread this misguided shit to ignorant people in your community. :(

Olearia, I am quite aware of the holocaust, I thought if you used your intelligence you may have picked that up from my original post saying I didnt like what happenned to the Jews, think please.
You are now the fifth poster to make this misunderstanding. :rolleyes:

Get off the Jews thing will you, like Ive said to four other posters, I dont like one bit what happenned to the Jews.
Hitler should never have attacked France or any nations on his west side, and should have left the Poles alone, except for taking a corridor of land off them to move his forces through to attack Russia. With all Germanys armed might concentrated on Communist Russia, he would have easily conqured them. America seeing a potential enemy taken out and no European nations under threat would have concentrated soley on Japan.
Hitler could have turned Germany into a world power by taking Russia as his lebenstraum only during the fortys.
If he done this and sat on it for a decade or two his position of power would have been safer, as one huge enemy is nullified, then safer conquests can be made.
But he tried to win everywhere at once, and so failed.
Conquest is like Chess, use well thought out strategy, to take the other pieces out slowly, you dont try to take all the pieces at once.

I tried to be reasonable in my other posts, but now you've really p***sed me off. If you understood a single thing about the holocaust you wouldn't say something as idiotic as 'Get off the Jews thing will you, like Ive said to four other posters, I dont like one bit what happenned to the Jews.' It is impossible to get off the jews thing. If Hitler was just a leader who tried to build an empire maybe people wouldn't view him so harshly. I mean he would have killed lots of soldiers and civilians in the process but he wouldn't be responsible for one of the most callous and depraved acts in history. He used industrial techniquest to murder millions of people! He killed people of all ages, he used their fillings, hair and skin to make products for sale! He experimented on people! He starved and gassed people! HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO IGNORE THIS??

I think you are a very immature individual who does views war in a strategic sense - 'Conquest is like Chess' as you said - with no regard for human suffering.... I pity you..

Olearia, I am quite aware of the holocaust, I thought if you used your intelligence you may have picked that up from my original post saying I didnt like what happenned to the Jews, think please.
You are now the fifth poster to make this misunderstanding. :rolleyes:


How on the one hand can you consider Hitler to be given a raw deal by history and at the same time be 'quite aware of the holocaust'. It is not my intelligence that is to blame - I think that you are illogical.
Many of us have 'made this misunderstanding' because we have great difficulty understanding where you come from.

Olearia, I am quite aware of the holocaust, I thought if you used your intelligence you may have picked that up from my original post saying I didnt like what happenned to the Jews, think please.
You are now the fifth poster to make this misunderstanding. :rolleyes:

You talk about not liking what happened to the Jews as though it is a small thing. I wouldn't use the word dislike. I would say I am horrified, aghast, dumbfounded by what happened to not only the jews, but homosexuals, gypsies, the disabled, communists, left-wing intellectuals etc. at the hands of Hitler.

To say that you 'dislike what happened to the Jews' makes you sound both ignorant and heartless.

Hitler got a raw deal you say?

Hm...

As you mention, Im not even going to touch the issue of the holocuast, Im gonna point on his military strategies.
Hitler made the same stupid mistake Napoleon did before him.

He underwent a long, pronounced march towards Moscow, during the winter.
Fool.
It didnt work well for the French either, but it still seemed to him, like a good idea.

He removed Rommel...bad idea.

He executed many of his own top commanders, becuase his paranoia made him think they couldnt be trusted.

He chose to attack Britian, wich would enivitably draw in the Americans, even if Pearl Harbor hadnt occured.
Attacking Britian was a poor decision becuase they may have well left him alone on the European front, if they hadnt been provoked either.

If Hitler had not been a total fool, and listened to his Generals, the nazi's would likely be in power in Europe, right now.

As for his beliefs in the aryan race, most of that is fallacy, inspired by Goebles and others who believed that the Germans were the descendants of Atlantis, and that by racially mixing with Jews, and other "Sub-Humans", caused them to lose thier superhuman powers.
Thats right, they believed that by eliminating the jewish bloood, they could create a race of people with superpowers, like their Atlantean progenitors.

Madness.

Hitler wasnt given a raw deal....he was as insane, and evil as history labels him , anyone who doesnt think so, is pretty much a douchebag.

[QUOTE=Olearia]
Firstly, I think it is immature for anyone to consider one individual's actions okay because there is someone who appears worse. I think that Hitler and Stalin both did some really evil shit. To talk about someone being the 'real villain' is to consider the world in a very hollywood black and white kind of way.

I just see Stalin as the 20 th Centurys biggest villan not Hitler, I know they were both psychcotic powertrippers.




Secondly, since when does the end justify the means? How can you justify murdering 6million people to improve the economy?

I didnt.

Thirdly, in what way was he brave?

He served in WWI, and was commended for bravery by senior officers.

Fourthly, what are the dangers of communism? I think that it is a flawed system (just like captialism), but I would like to hear your arguments for how Hitler's despicable acts can be justified on thse grounds. Why was there a need to 'smash Russia'?

I think Stalins Russia would have tried to conqure Europe, and spread communism, but Hitler beat him to it.
Ironically Hitler gave him the chance and excuse to move his forces into Europe and keep them there.


Finally, without debating the merits of whether he did try and get Jews out of Germany (I don't think he did but nevermind), why does this make him okay?

It shows he was prepared to try something alot less bloody than the final solution.

Because you think he gave them some kind of fighting chance? By telling them to 'run' before he tries to exterminate them.

Better than giving them no chance at all, if I had been a Jew in Nazi Germany, I would have been out of there by 1933, 36 at the latest.


Also, I find it disappointing that 'the Jews' and European people are considered separate. The Jews in Germany were German nationals. The Jews in Poland were Polish nationals and so on. The fact is he killed innocent people.... and I don't think you can justify this on any grounds...its just wrong and Hitler was just wrong....

It may disturb you to know, that most of the Jews killed were polish ones, who were given up readily to the Nazis by their fellow countrymen who loathed them.

How has he been given a raw deal??

To much blame has been attributed soley to him, for the ills of the 20th C.

Also If he had left the Jews alone, and only attacked Russia and end Communism there, he would probably be regarded as one of the 20th C greatest men.

You talk about not liking what happened to the Jews as though it is a small thing. I wouldn't use the word dislike. I would say I am horrified, aghast, dumbfounded by what happened to not only the jews, but homosexuals, gypsies, the disabled, communists, left-wing intellectuals etc. at the hands of Hitler.
To say that you 'dislike what happened to the Jews' makes you sound both ignorant and heartless.

Sorry if Im not into melodramatics like you, saying dislike is more than enough for me to convey how I feel about the slaughter of innocent good people.

How on the one hand can you consider Hitler to be given a raw deal by history and at the same time be 'quite aware of the holocaust'. It is not my intelligence that is to blame - I think that you are illogical.
Many of us have 'made this misunderstanding' because we have great difficulty understanding where you come from.

I see Hitler mostly as a tragedy, he could have mobilised the German nation to defeat Communism in Russia, and saved the western world alot of future headaches.
Instead he attacked the wrong people, other democracys.

right but why was the german resistance never supported???
e.g. Claus Philip Maria Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg and his group were all in the system they were 19 generals, 26 colonels, 2 ambassadors, 7 Diplomats, 1 Minister, 3 State Secretary and the Cheef of the Reichskriminalpolizei and they even searched contact to the allies...

German resistance? I think you underestimate what two million plus dedicated goons whos highest priority is to supress any rebellion can do.
The French resistance, brave and helpful as they were, lived in absolute terror most of the time from being found out by the brutal Gestapo, it was that strong and organised, a German resistance would have been unimaginable.

[QUOTE]

I just see Stalin as the 20 th Centurys biggest villan not Hitler, I know they were both psychcotic powertrippers.

Why does there need to be a biggest villain? That's just a stupid way of thinking. In your mind is the 100th biggest villain okay because he's so far down the list?

He served in WWI, and was commended for bravery by senior officers.
So what? He killed innocent people. I don't care if he had a great war record, if he looked after his parents, if he was kind to animals. The fact is he was a despicable human being.


It shows he was prepared to try something alot less bloody than the final solution.

Oh, so he gave it a try did he? Why did he have to 'try' something in the first place? I still think you're argument is ridiculous. So he have them a chance, that makes it okay does it?

Better than giving them no chance at all, if I had been a Jew in Nazi Germany, I would have been out of there by 1933, 36 at the latest.

But you weren't there then were you? It wasn't you're country you were being asked to leave was it? You weren't being asked to uproot were you? And besides, I think a lot of jewish people and others didn't see the holocaust coming. Granted there was anti-semitism and there were rumours, but what would it take to make you believe?


It may disturb you to know, that most of the Jews killed were polish ones, who were given up readily to the Nazis by their fellow countrymen who loathed them.

I understand this. You missed my point. I felt that when you referred to 'Jews' it was a way of dehumanising people. Ordinary people who lived in countries that betrayed them. Its like if the US Government decided that the baptists just had to go....they belong to that country, it is their home. Just like it was for Polish Jews in Poland and German Jews in Germany.


To much blame has been attributed soley to him, for the ills of the 20th C.

What blame? He is considered an evil man who was responsible for the murder of millions of people, I think that's fair. What other ills are you referring to exactly?

Also If he had left the Jews alone, and only attacked Russia and end Communism there, he would probably be regarded as one of the 20th C greatest men.

That might be the case, but he didn't. He also may have been a nobody living in a house in Berlin or Koln or wherever living a quiet life. But he's not. He's being judged for what he did. That's fair.

OK the Holocaust was bad, very bad, but it still doesnt mean that Stalin was any worse a dictator! he murdered over 20Million of his own population regardless of race, infact I believe that he was anti-semetic too, just not to the same extent as Hitler.

In any case, the Goulags were just as bad as the Nazi death camps, being outside in, therebouts, -25deg.C with nothing but a shirt and trousers is pretty terrible. as for the arguement that if the Allies had alligned with Nazi Germany in the late 30s early 40s, it wouldnt have made a difference. to the outcome of the 2nd world war. Poland and France were destined to be annexed by the Nazis, if the war did wage east by all nations, the russions would have kept falling back untill they reached their eastern coasts, extending supply line and then counter attacked every winter with their air-cooled tanks which required little or no maintance. Combined with the massive population and lack of language barrier between russians (as opposed to english/german/french(?) ) there would have been very little cohesion.

Retrospective history is great fun, but there are certain facts which cannot be submerged or denied.

although the atrocities of both dictators were great, no one seems to care about the 1 million in 6 months in rwanda, or the other butchering in Africa in the 60-80s. Indeed if apartate had remained, in Rhodes (Zimbabwae) for example then we would not be lumbered with Rob Mugabe for example.

I know what i'm saying may well upset many people, but remember now that the people that advocated the rise of mugabe are not saying he is a bad thing! apartate means "Seperate developement" which i believe is the key to the africa problem...but thats another story.

In conculsion i've gone off topic, but the point remains that yes as Hitler was the loser in the war, he is given a bad write up, but then again he does deserve it, but still he inspired a nation from ashes into a giant. Stalin was a tyrant, which in no way is deniable. indeed even his body was removed from the morsaleum (spelling?) by his sucessor, who then undertook "de-stalinisation". So over all none of these people are good men as they waged war, but in doing so they delivered us to our current states of mind than therefore should be appreciated for teaching us that their actions should never be repeated.

I hope this makes sense to some of you, and i know its a bit long, but 3 sentances cant convey the horrors or lessons of the second world war and world order.

[QUOTE=Gessler]
Sorry, I logged in as another nation.

I see Hitler mostly as a tragedy, he could have mobilised the German nation to defeat Communism in Russia, and saved the western world alot of future headaches.
Instead he attacked the wrong people, other democracys.


There was no way Hitlers infantry was going to take Moscow.

I see Hitler mostly as a tragedy, he could have mobilised the German nation to defeat Communism in Russia, and saved the western world alot of future headaches.
Instead he attacked the wrong people, other democracys.

What future headaches are you referring to?
You should be explicit if you want to have a real discussion

Sorry if Im not into melodramatics like you, saying dislike is more than enough for me to convey how I feel about the slaughter of innocent good people.

Melodramatic
Exaggeratedly emotional or sentimental; histrionic.

I may be being dramatic and I may feel it is an emotional issue. But I don't think I'm being overly sentimental or too emotional about the murder of millions of people.

O.K, I dont care how you slice it, Hitler was a BAD guy. He thought Germans where the superior race and all the Jews should be exterminated because they didnt make pure germans. He was NUTS. Did anybody ever read Mein Kampf? He was crazy, kinda like Bush.....

Melodramatic
Exaggeratedly emotional or sentimental; histrionic.

I may be being dramatic and I may feel it is an emotional issue. But I don't think I'm being overly sentimental or too emotional about the murder of millions of people.

I dislike cheese. I dislike some people.

I wouldn't use 'dislike' to refer the holocaust.
One of the cremation pits used to burn the victims of the gas chambers in Auschwitz. These "burning pits" were used mainly in the summer of 1944, when the extermination was going at such a rate that the furnaces couldn't handle the number of corpses.

The troops shot anyone still moving after the explosion. Then they
spread lime over the remains, and a new layer of straw was spread on
top of the lime. Three or four layers of bodies, ten in each layer,
were placed in such a grave. During the executions the other victims
had to watch and await their turn. Women were kicked in the stomach
and breasts, children smashed against rocks.

They came for the communists, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a communist;
They came for the socialists, and I did not speak up because I was not a socialist;
They came for the union leaders, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a union leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me."

Martin Niemoller, 1892-1984

By discussing Hitler in this way I think you belittle the lives of everyone who died and everyone who suffered.

Melodramatic
Exaggeratedly emotional or sentimental; histrionic.

I may be being dramatic and I may feel it is an emotional issue. But I don't think I'm being overly sentimental or too emotional about the murder of millions of people.

Its not a big deal to me, if they had been Australians, then I would say I was angry as well, seeing as they werent, then dislike is enough.

I dislike cheese. I dislike some people.
I wouldn't use 'dislike' to refer the holocaust.
One of the cremation pits used to burn the victims of the gas chambers in Auschwitz. These "burning pits" were used mainly in the summer of 1944, when the extermination was going at such a rate that the furnaces couldn't handle the number of corpses.
The troops shot anyone still moving after the explosion. Then they
spread lime over the remains, and a new layer of straw was spread on
top of the lime. Three or four layers of bodies, ten in each layer,
were placed in such a grave. During the executions the other victims
had to watch and await their turn. Women were kicked in the stomach
and breasts, children smashed against rocks.
They came for the communists, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a communist;
They came for the socialists, and I did not speak up because I was not a socialist;
They came for the union leaders, and I did not speak up because I wasn't a union leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak up for me."
Martin Niemoller, 1892-1984
By discussing Hitler in this way I think you belittle the lives of everyone who died and everyone who suffered.

This kind of thing has been going on since probably forever, do you think the Nazis envented ethnic cleansing? They merely took it to a new level of efficiency because of the available technology.
Soldiers have been bashing out babys brains against rocks and trees etc since ancient times.

German resistance? I think you underestimate what two million plus dedicated goons whos highest priority is to supress any rebellion can do.
The French resistance, brave and helpful as they were, lived in absolute terror most of the time from being found out by the brutal Gestapo, it was that strong and organised, a German resistance would have been unimaginable.

but it exicted e.g
20. Juli 1944 Führerhauptquartier "Wolfsschanze" near Rastenburg (Ostpreußen)
Staufenberg doposed 1kg explosives of the typ Plastit W at a briefing with Hitler Göring and Himmler. unfortunately they were just lightly injured. this was not the first try to kill hitler many others faild befor.
in the end all persons involved in the assasination wer executed...

know german resitance had ever a chance as they were never supported...

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

Maybe he did kill less people than Stalin, Mao, etc....
I mean we've all heard about labour camps, gulags, etc.. how people were worked to death. A truly terrible thing.
People were sent to these camps to work one of the hardest existances possible, with little chance of survival.
But hitler is seen as worse than these 2 by many, because he did he did not want to simply use them as forced labour but wanted to EXTERMINATE them.

No matter what esle was achieved by hitlers germany, the EXTERMINATION of countless millions has caused him and his kind to be reviled...

:mad:
As far as I can see all Hitler did was introduce cheap mass transport which is the only thing stopping many nations becoming far greener, and awaken us all to the problems of genocide.

Also, I do not beleive that the germans and the british could have overcome russia together. Remember, the russians drove the fighting elite of the german army back to berlin :sniper: whereas the allies had trouble with the token defence force left by hitler in western europe.

Better than giving them no chance at all, if I had been a Jew in Nazi Germany, I would have been out of there by 1933, 36 at the latest.

I doubt it. Most other countries had very, very strict visa controls on jews coming from germany, because they did belive that hitler would try to kill the lot of them. Unless you were rich, were a competant tradesman or had family you would not have been able to stay for any length of time.
:mad: Nasty thought, eh?

know german resitance had ever a chance as they were never supported...

They were never supported because of the efficiency of Germanys secret police, imagine if you were approached by some people who claimed to be German resistance, would you trust them?

Ok, three things. Olearia makes a good point. I mean, it was snowing human ash over most of the 'Extermination Camps'. That is how many people he killed. Secondly, Hitler wasn't insane. And that is the scariest thing about him. He believed what he was doing was right. He believed that to make Germany better these people had to die. The man was evil as hell. Yes Stalin was evil as hell too, but you can't compare them. This isn't a race with a first second and third. They were both maniacs who killed people. End of story.

Better than giving them no chance at all, if I had been a Jew in Nazi Germany, I would have been out of there by 1933, 36 at the latest.

I doubt it. Most other countries had very, very strict visa controls on jews coming from germany, because they did belive that hitler would try to kill the lot of them. Unless you were rich, were a competant tradesman or had family you would not have been able to stay for any length of time.
:mad: Nasty thought, eh?

Exactly, no one cared about the Jews, they have their blood on their hands as much as Germany.

Bullshit. Hitler was the one that massacred them. Not the rest of the world.

Ok, three things. Olearia makes a good point. I mean, it was snowing human ash over most of the 'Extermination Camps'. That is how many people he killed. Secondly, Hitler wasn't insane. And that is the scariest thing about him. He believed what he was doing was right. He believed that to make Germany better these people had to die. The man was evil as hell. Yes Stalin was evil as hell too, but you can't compare them. This isn't a race with a first second and third. They were both maniacs who killed people. End of story.

He was insane, unfortunately, as an earlier poster pointed out, a clearheaded Hitler would have trusted his generals decisions more, and listened to their advice, but paranoia about loosing control overwhelmed him.

Bullshit. Hitler was the one that massacred them. Not the rest of the world.

They are guilty for not caring.

I'll give you that. But, you can't say they had as much blood on their hands as the Nazis. The Nazis are the ones that carried out the holocaust. They're the ones that killed the people. They're responsible for their deaths.

Didn't this topic come up before? The whole criticizing Americans for ending the war with Japan with the A-bomb instead of wanting us to have an untold amount of Americans and Japanese die in an invasion of Japan?

Same thing. Goddamned idiots everywhere.

[QUOTE=Darien and Wild Cat]:mad:
Also, I do not beleive that the germans and the british could have overcome russia together.

Easily, first their combined forces focussed soley on Russia instead of each other, would have driven Stalin out in weeks.
Also dont discount America seeing a potential enemy on the ropes weighing in as a British ally as well ,that would have ended Communist Russia for good.


Remember, the russians drove the fighting elite of the german army back to berlin :sniper: whereas the allies had trouble with the token defence force left by hitler in western europe.

They drove them back because the Germans were ill equiped to handle the Russian winter, remember they fought in two of them, their supply lines were shocking, their they had hardly any antifreeze for the oil for the tanks, a better equipped and supplied German army, as in winter clothing even, the poor bastards still had only their summer uniforms, you think the Generals would have learnt from the first winter.

The 'token forces' in western Europe were over two million well armed and equipped fighting men, no easy take, and they were still beaten back over the Rhine in less than a year. The Germans lost western Europe primarily because they had no aircover any more.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

There must be some law against being that ignorant. I don't think I was supposed to laugh...but I did anyway.

There must be some law against being that ignorant. I don't think I was supposed to laugh...but I did anyway.

Whatever flamer. :rolleyes:

Didn't this topic come up before? The whole criticizing Americans for ending the war with Japan with the A-bomb instead of wanting us to have an untold amount of Americans and Japanese die in an invasion of Japan?
Same thing. Goddamned idiots everywhere.

You said it.

Evil cannot be combatted with evil. Both Hitler and Stalin had to go. Thankfully they are.

I'll give you that. But, you can't say they had as much blood on their hands as the Nazis. The Nazis are the ones that carried out the holocaust. They're the ones that killed the people. They're responsible for their deaths.

But not soley.

Evil cannot be combatted with evil. Both Hitler and Stalin had to go. Thankfully they are.

Their gone because one was beaten by the worlds combined forces, the other one died of old age.

Their gone because one was beaten by the worlds combined forces, the other one died of old age.

As in the systems they created. They were barbaric and uncivilised, the world is very much better off without Hitler's Nazi Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union.

:headbang: :sniper: :confused: :mp5: your right about adolf trying to get the jews out of Germeny but the reason they didn't accept them is they had other problems so don't jude them by there front cover.

If England had united with germany then history would be totaly different and contraversial hypercrites would rule the world instead plus theres no point crying over spilt milk so :upyours:

Right, I couldnt be bothered to read every page you guys wrote, and from reading the first page I'd say 3/4 of it would be: "Hitler was bad, BAD BAD BAD. I am right, you are wrong, lets kill all Germans".

Okay so Hitler was no samaritan, but I actually admire the guy. Before all the Jew murdering, and abusing/ killing the other minorities, he was all for reforiming Germany in favour of Germans. The Germans loved him. In the early days he was quite a decent guy it seems, but he was allways mentally unstable. It just took some truly evil people who Hitler had close to him to push him over the edge and turn him evil and psychotic.

Well thats my opinion anyway, theres more, but im lazy and theres kids TV to be watched, so erm, yeah, go ahead and rip to shreds.

~Pabli

That was bad too, and totally unneccessary, although I couldnt care less about the homos.
I cant believe no one called you on this. :rolleyes:
So it is okay to do all kind of horrible things to homosexuals? It isnt a crime anymore to murder them?
You disgust me.

Worst. Thread. Ever.

[QUOTE=For Elves]:headbang: :sniper: :confused: :mp5: your right about adolf trying to get the jews out of Germeny but the reason they didn't accept them is they had other problems so don't jude them by there front cover.

Like what?

If England had united with germany then history would be totaly different and contraversial hypercrites would rule the world instead plus theres no point crying over spilt milk so :upyours:

Yeah up yours too child, controversial hypocrits would rule instead??
What on earth are you babbling on about?

Worst. Thread. Ever.

Only when non contributing flamers like you post. :rolleyes:
Go watch the grass grow or something.

I cant believe no one called you on this. :rolleyes:
So it is okay to do all kind of horrible things to homosexuals? It isnt a crime anymore to murder them?
You disgust me.

Tell someone who cares.

Who ever started this poll JOIN the Region Eye of Oden

:p :) :gundge: :confused:

Yes Hitler was racist against Jews. But it wasnt his idea to kill them, that was Himler, I cant remember though. Hitler did rescue Germanys economy, which was screwed after we (Britain, France and U.S.A) ordered them to pay huge reparations for WWI which we declared on them :rolleyes: . If it wasnt for Hitler they would still be paying it off now. But there is evil everywere, its strange how the Apartheid is erased from the memory of many people because they dont like to think their religion would allow so many believers to do that. And in Iraq Americans dropped napalm (which was made illegal by the geneva I think) on Iraqis and there defence was "we were aiming for the bridge, the iraqis just got in the way". But the news has a war of distorting the truth. I can be talking to someone and they end up saying something like "Those Muslims, they are all suicide bombers" and they look at me like I am stupid when I explain it is a very, very small minority which is disowned by most Muslims and that suicide is a "sin" in Islam because it is interfering with allahs plans. IF there wasnt the holocaust Hitler would be seen as a hero. Stalin did kill 20 million of his own people, but as he wasnt singleing out a different race, as they are his citizens, he isnt seen as a murdering racist. Stalin was the real monster. There was 1 rifle per 3 soldiers. the first man had no ammo but he had a rifle, and e was followed by 2 men with ammo and as soon as he is shot they pick up the rifle and start shooting.

Evil is everywhere, it just depends what gets the media attention.

I for one, and many others think this guy has been given araw deal by historians. Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.
u suck and get lost

die you filthy neo-nazi!!!! die in hell!! :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :gundge: :gundge: die!!!!

u suck and get lost

whatever. :rolleyes:

die you filthy neo-nazi!!!! die in hell!! :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :gundge: :gundge: die!!!!

Or the gas chamber 33rd reich?

That's some serious understatement there. I know nobody who actually thinks Hitler did something good to advance the world.

The germans in ww2 changed the world technoligy wise.

Heres a quick list :

Helicopters
Jet engines
Space travel
Smart bombs
Cruise missiles
Strategic missiles
Guided missiles
The haeber process


As for hitler being bad, he did good for germany untill 1943, but i beleive in a few hundred years, hitler wont be remembered as an evil tyrant.

Look at alexander the great, he massercared entire people, like hitler, and he's remembered almost as a god like historicle figure. The british , with there empire
Invented concentration camps, ( i am english) and we killed just in the same way as hitler, eg going out on a hunt for fun, , only your hunting native australians.

Hitler was bad, very bad, but not the worse, and the amount of attention given to him by history is disproportinate, in rwanda now, there is genocide, do people care? no, i bet most people dont even know its going on.

die you filthy neo-nazi!!!! die in hell!! :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :gundge: :gundge: die!!!!

By believing that there is good in everyone, doesnt make him a neo nazi. And if you went around killing Nazis you would become what you are trying to destroy.

[QUOTE=Rougu] The british , with there empire
Invented concentration camps, ( i am english) and we killed just in the same way as hitler, eg going out on a hunt for fun, , only your hunting native australians.

Dont forget all the other native peoples you massacred, it wasnt just in Australia :)

Hitler was bad, very bad, but not the worse, and the amount of attention given to him by history is disproportinate, in rwanda now, there is genocide, do people care? no, i bet most people dont even know its going on.

Its because their Black, if it had been a million white people massacred in Europe, it would have been an uproar at the UN.

By believing that there is good in everyone, doesnt make him a neo nazi. And if you went around killing Nazis you would become what you are trying to destroy.

Exactly, council the nazis, so they can be of use to society.

I love the maturity and sensible reasoning guys...

I love the maturity and sensible reasoning guys...

You got anything decent to add?

Tell someone who cares.
Do me a favour and die in an agonising way pretty soon.

[QUOTE]

Not really, history is always written by the victors remember.



He served in the trenches in WW1, and his courage was never under question.

I could care less where he Served in WW-I.


Huh? Are you saying he was right about slaughtering them?

No, I'm saying using that as a point; automatically defeats all your points you related from it.


The point is they were given the option in the early thirtys to leave, the smart ones saw things were going to get worse and left.
Also plans were made to conqure Madagasscar(sp) and resettle the Jews there, an admirable plan compared to what happened instead.

You're functionally retarded. "Leave your home, or we will kill you!"... So it's their own fault for not leaving? Even after you admit he was fucking wrong?


Hitlers Germany rewarded industry etc let people get rich through bussiness, he still was a capitalist, which is nothing like communism which enslaves the whole country under the same wage no matter what they do for work, offerring no hope to get rich, it all goes to the state, and of course the fortunates running the state, pity they dont practice what they preach.


No, he was a nationalist. There is a difference. Capitalism is free-market economics. Fascism (National-Socialism) combines Capitalistic overtones with Socialistic control... More or less toned-down feudalism. Where business can only exist at the behest of the state. Hitler would not have been seizing businesses, and redistributing and hording stollen assets from what he classified as "undesirables"; were he an actual capitalist.


Only because they werent ready, Germany gave Stalin the excuse to mobilise Russia into a war machine, the allies werent too surprised when the Russian armys didnt retreat from the countrys they had 'liberated' from Germany.

Nice revisionism. Pre-War no one expected that. It also affirms the point there was a lack of atmopshere, had your retarded and defunct (historically) scenario played out; for the United States to even have entered the war.

The US supplied Brittish and French forces. Under the Axis Pact; Japan attacked the United States. Japan being a German Ally; thus the entire Axis was declared war on..... If Brittain was allied with Germany (and thus Japan factors in too) [however unlikely such a perverted revision would be]; Japan would never have attacked. Thus it would have been German/Japanese/Brittish forces, vs. French and Russian forces (in your scenario); leading to the US as a neutral party supplying both sides of the war (Brittain vs. France). Given that the French, Chinese and Russians were in no place to actually mount an attack on the United States; regardless of which side the US continued to supply; the US would either have been attacked by an Axis Power (and came in on Russian or French sides); or remained neutral: (more likely the latter).

In the RW scenario; The USSR got control of the Eastern-Bloc satalites; as states already conquered by Germany. As did the US/UK allies (namely Belgium; the Neatherlands, Denmark, Luxemburg, etc.) So the primary realization here; is that long before said states were in Soviet control; they were under imperial control of the Nazi's; and their Tyrant-King (Let's face it; that is EXACTLY what he was; forget the false "titles") Adolf Hitler.

So... Who conquered the sovereign states of Poland, Romania, Denmark, The NEatherlands, Belgium, France, etc.?

Answer: Nazi Germany.... The USSR's control stemmed from alliance pacts bettween the victors; who conquered the Nazi's. They were not the agressors in the war. Pure, and fucking, simple.

Your revisionism is pathetic. Child.

The germans in ww2 changed the world technoligy wise.

Heres a quick list :

Helicopters
Jet engines
Space travel
Smart bombs
Cruise missiles
Strategic missiles
Guided missiles
The haeber process


As for hitler being bad, he did good for germany untill 1943, but i beleive in a few hundred years, hitler wont be remembered as an evil tyrant.

Look at alexander the great, he massercared entire people, like hitler, and he's remembered almost as a god like historicle figure. The british , with there empire
Invented concentration camps, ( i am english) and we killed just in the same way as hitler, eg going out on a hunt for fun, , only your hunting native australians.

Hitler was bad, very bad, but not the worse, and the amount of attention given to him by history is disproportinate, in rwanda now, there is genocide, do people care? no, i bet most people dont even know its going on.
Jet engine Whittle and before him Parsons, not a German gene in sight.

Exactly, council the nazis, so they can be of use to society.
Most of the neo-nazi's that I know are some of the hardest working people you'll ever meet. Skinheads can be a difrent story.

Stalin was the real villian of the 20th Century, not this brave man who only wanted to improve the lot of Europe by ending the forcoming dangers of communism which were starting to loom in France.
I admit he was wrong about the Jews, but before you point fingers, remember he tried to get them out of Germany first, unfortunately no one else in Europe would take them, they are as much to blame as Germany.
Britain should have united with Germany, together they would smashed Russia, as the US would have then come in with them as well.

Oh yes, poor man who only wanted the best for Europe...

Well, I am German historian, I am no liberal or left-wing, AND I say Hitler was that bad! Hitlers ideology was based on racism, nationalism and social darwinism. You're right, Stalin killed more people than Adolf - but Stalin had 20 years more time!
Other countries refused to take the German jews, correct; but this only shows that in world politics is no "Good" and "Bad". Only because Hitler and Stalin were the worst this doesn't mean Churchill, Roosevelt and Truman were Saints. Unite with Britain, smash USSR, force the US to get in - all this we don't have to discuss about, it just wasn't Hitlers program.

NOTE: This following statement is not defence of Hitler.

Given the years in which the two men were in power, while Stalin was in power longer than Hitler, the years give the guise that he committed his massacres sporadically over the years. However, one forgets to mention the genocide that occurred in the Ukraine in 1932-1933. This is known as Stalin's Forced Famine (he induced it after the Ukranians refused to send most of their harvest to Soviet Russia. For that, Stalin's army took the food by force, leaving the people to starve. Many reverted to cannabolism and other crude means in order to survive). In this, he killed almost, or rather about 7-million Ukrainians, regardless of religion, but he still killed many people of one race.

He did this after WWI, in which the Russians still controlled part of Eastern Europe before it was (sadly) liberated by the Nazis. They were liberated, and that is a very sad thing.

During the entire regime of Hitler, he killed 6 million Jews. However, this wasn't in one year like Stalin and the famine...

This is just one incident.

Don't tell me that I'm comparing apples and oranges because these are both similar in that the men chose to commit genocide against a single group of people.

This is meant to be a counterstatement to those defending Stalin and the form of Communism that evolved under his regime.

Okay... seriously, my last post on this topic (it is getting a bit warm in here)

I would like to remind everyone that Hitler himself didn't start the Holocost as we know it. Was it a horrible experience for those who saw it? Indeed... I read Maus, Night, and many other Holocost books. In fact, my great uncle George was one of the first into Aushwitz. However, IIRC, Hitler was the the person who came up with the final solution. As some have said, he just wanted them out of Germany, Himmler is the one who decided to kill them instead.

In all fairness, I have another way to look at his paranoia. If Hitler wasn't paranoid of the Jews, he never would have kicked out Einstein or many other the other influential people who became the Manhattan project... think of how many more dead would there have been if instead of the US having the Bomb, it was the Nazis.

To those who have misread my post and others... I didn't say he wasn't bad, just sometimes he is made to be a bit worse than he really was. As someone pointed out, history is written by the victors. Many countries in Europe are still rather sore with the entire Nazi debocle, as I recall, you can get arrested in Germany for their salute. Mein Kampf is illegeal for sale in a few of the low-land countries (not being derogatory... just using their technical name since they are below sealevel) and Denmark I belive. In England, France, and a few others, you may not print any part of in as a quote in a Newspaper or other medium without Government concent.

Now, as to how some of his policies... Facism works, it is a good alternitive to Capitalism, or Stalinism. Give the people an ideal to fight for, they become more motivated. I am NOT advocating Naziism here, dont get me wrong. Naziism requires a group to hate and beat upon at the same time (in this case, Jews). His annexations were somewhat justified. Most leading up to the war were at one point Germany anyway, some even as recent as World War one. This stopped though when he took the whole of Czechslovokia. The idea of a 'perfect race' is not a new one at all. Look in US history even. Every wave of new immigrants that came in were looked on with disgust and were mistreated for being 'un-American,' so dont think Americans can come out of this one clean. Did we throw them in an oven? No. Did we segregate them from society in what was only marginally better then concentration camps, sometimes. Did we have any concentration camps of our own? You betcha! Anyone remember what happened to US citizens of Japanese descent? Thats right, the government siezed your property, business, belongings etc. and threw you into a camp in New Mexico (correct me if I have the wrong state... I know it is out west). Granted conditions were better than their Nazi counterparts, but we used the same method to get them there. Perhaps too someone recalls all the American Indians we threw on 'reservations' again depriving them of their home for centuries...

In short, was Hitler bad? Without a doubt. Was he as bad as modern western thought makes him to be? No, not really, he is just another carismatic leader in a world full of them, under whose regime horrible actions have occured, as did under many other regimes before his.

not as big a post as everybody, i havent even read half the posts on this thread, but in history, EVERYBODY has persecuted the jews, if anything went wrong, the jews got the blame, they were the minority, hell, they were accused of sneaking through the night to slaughter christian babies, so hitler isnt alone in his persecution of them, jews have been killed by everybody for centuries. secondly, i believe that hitler was a great man, he did terrible things, but they were great in themselves, like the fact that he rebuilt a nation that was seriously in depression, he gave them jobs, he brought them hope, he even got them to build roads. it was only when he became power mad that he started becoming a dictator. btw, he never killed jews, and he didnt devise the ways to kill them, that was the SS, he merely wanted them dead... just like i want ppl dead, dnt make me evil... in short, he did great, yet also terrible things. dont flame me, dont quote me, i wont be reading any more posts on this thread after i press submit ;) :sniper:

Just because Hitler didnt personally light the fires in all the crematoriums doesnt relieve him of the guilt he shares for all the murders and atrocities commited. He believed in Eugenics strongly , and while someone else may have suggested this HE had it put into action. He wanted a pure Aryan race so using a theory only a madman could create ...why not kill all those who are deemed unworthy? And Gessler you have no business saying who cares about the Homosexuals he slaughtered...even if one doesnt believe they have civil rights (which I do) ,they cannot support the brutality and cruelty they suffered as well as the insane, retarded, hospitalized patients,gypsies,and anyone else they deemed unworthy. Who has the right to play God like this? And yes genocide is still occuring and I am horrified at what is happening in Africa. We tried but someone tied our(US) hands up and wouldnt let us disarm the gangs. Stalin was every bit as evil as Hitler and personally they both should share top honors. and for me personally just knowing I had people out there slaughering children and babies and being able to sleep at night ought to be enough to make me the worst shithead of the century.

Jet engine Whittle and before him Parsons, not a German gene in sight.

it was flown, tested , launched and used in combat before any country, the idea is british, the germans takethecredit, like computers and the revolver pistol,only the americans took the credit for them.

hitler was pure evil
and not because of the holocaust but because of him i have to put up with all these crappy vw's driving around
i dont care what anyone thinks the bettle is the ugliest car i has ever seen

Hitler isn't misunderstood, but Mao Tsedong dwarfs both him and Stalin in terms of carnage (100 million dead, anyone?)