NationStates Jolt Archive

This is something that has annoyed me for a great ammount of time. The idea that sub-national groups that commit the kind of atrocities such as 7/7 and the suicicde bombings in Israel are morraly the same as the forces that try to stop them, just with diffrent aims and methods. This is not the case. People who support this arguement basicly go on to say "but the Isralies kill civilians too" yes, but they do it while trying to eliminate terrorists. They dont go round trying to kill as many Palistinian civilians as they can. There's a clear moral diffrence between killing civilians as a result of trying to kill terrorists and just going to kill as many civilians as you can, which is what the terrorists do. Now I am not saying that this makes the deaths of those civilians caught up in the Israllie's hunting of the terrorists OK, of course its bad that such things happen, but its wrong to blame the Isralies. Who you should blame are the terrorists since there the ones who blur the line between civilian and soldier and cause all these problems. If you cant see the moral diffrence between trying to kill civilians and acidentally killing them, then your being far to black and white. Thinking "their dead, the result is the same" is far too simplistic.

I feel sorry for Israel. I think they have every right to defnd themselves, and if is a fact that there will always be some sort of civillian casualties during a war of any kind. As long as they cleary concentrate on their enemies and try to minimize civillian casualties, I am fine. I wouldn't like it if they purposely concentrated on civillians, though.

7/7? What the hell is wrong with you people? Can't anyone call the shit what it is or are we supposed to remember obscure dates? What thell is waco's date? The OK city bombing? We better mark is on the terrorism calender!

Ihatevacations']7/7?

The London bombings

The London bombings

What the hell is wrong with you people? Can't anyone call the shit what it is or are we supposed to remember obscure dates? What thell is waco's date? The OK city bombing? We better mark is on the terrorism calender!.

This is something that has annoyed me for a great ammount of time. The idea that sub-national groups that commit the kind of atrocities such as 7/7 and the suicicde bombings in Israel are morraly the same as the forces that try to stop them, just with diffrent aims and methods. This is not the case. People who support this arguement basicly go on to say "but the Isralies kill civilians too" yes, but they do it while trying to eliminate terrorists. They dont go round trying to kill as many Palistinian civilians as they can. There's a clear moral diffrence between killing civilians as a result of trying to kill terrorists and just going to kill as many civilians as you can, which is what the terrorists do. Now I am not saying that this makes the deaths of those civilians caught up in the Israllie's hunting of the terrorists OK, of course its bad that such things happen, but its wrong to blame the Isralies. Who you should blame are the terrorists since there the ones who blur the line between civilian and soldier and cause all these problems. If you cant see the moral diffrence between trying to kill civilians and acidentally killing them, then your being far to black and white. Thinking "their dead, the result is the same" is far too simplistic.
My opinion of the two groups is as follows:
Israeli government - Their army originally evolved out of the Zionist, terrorist group, Haganah. Haganah was a terrorist group, did commit bombings and kill civilians. So, the individuals in the Israeli army are not without dirty hands. Haganah, also, at one point, had friendly relations with the Nazis because they weren't aware of the Holocaust and they feared the Britain more than Germany (I can quote the exact page of "The Idiot's Guide to the Middle East," if you'd like).

Israeli intelligence, in the 50's, also bombed Egypt in an attempt to exacerbate the Suez Canal crisis by pretending to be Egyptian forces. Furthermore, Israeli intelligence was also caught torturing suspects a while ago, but at the same time, I believe most first-world countries such as America, Britain, and France do this, but that we simply aren't aware of it. When it was discovered, the Israeli government denounced the torture and dealt with it appropriately--but the fact that it went on at all was startling.

And lastly, statistically, there are more Palestinians killed in that region that Israelis. So, the security of Palestinians should certainly be far more important. I mean, of course, we need to protect Israeli's nukes, but it's wrong for there to be such an overwhelming disproportionate amount of fatalities (3 Palestinians dead for every Israeli). When it comes to Israelis killing innocents, I don't believe it's at the will of the government, but nor do I believe it's isolated cases, either. I believe that in many cases, it's simply accidents. But in many other cases, it is the prejudices of individual Israelis. Finally, I believe that if we had never supported Israel, that Zionist terrorist groups would still be a major problem today. But currently, the Israeli government is a democracy and a fairly civilized one at that, as they don't even have a death penalty. Yes, they partially evolved from terrorist groups, but that's not the attitude they share, overall, today. So, pretty much, the Israeli government is civilized. But there are radicals, both within it and throughout the country. For example, after Arafat died, one Israeli newsmedia said Arafat was a homosexual, because he had a "disease which had symptoms similar to AIDS." The idea that AIDS is a gay disease is so ignorant that the Jewish groups' radicalism goes without saying.

Palestinian Labor Organization - Just as the Israelis, the PLO largely evolved out of terrorism (although, arguably, far moreso). Members of the PLO used to shout the phrase, "Drive them [the Israelis] into the sea!" as their slogan. That's no longer the case. Now, the PLO merely states that they want the Zionist presence out of Israel. And justifiably so. It isn't all Israelis which want to control Palestine or oppose peace, but radical Zionist groups and radical Islamic groups. Neither the Israeli government nor the PLO are extremists.

And the Palestinians have been wrongfully discriminated against. The argument, "The Israelis lived there thousands of years ago, so it's their land," is ridiculous, because the same argument could be made for Native Americans in the U.S., aboriginals in Australia, as well as dividing European countries according to how they were ruled by tribes, when they were called Germania. All of that is ridiculous.

Furthermore, the PLO has denounced terrorism since the 1970's. There have been allegations and scandals involving their support of terrorism, but that has become less and less of an issue other than with anti-Arab radicals and conspiracy-theorists. Up until Arafat's death, most terrorist groups believed Arafat was too sympathetic to the Jews and Arafat is too smart to believe that terrorism would solve anything.

The reason why peace has not been achieved is not because the PLO or Israelis don't want peace--both do, which is why they both denounce terrorism--but rather, they both disagree over how peace should happen. And even after they agree, there are radical Zionists and radical Muslims that will never agree.

And lastly, Palestine's official TV station has repeatedly encouraged suicide-bombings and shown anti-Jewish programming. Arafat should've denounced it, but how could he? He's already being called soft. Denouncing it would make it look even more like he was siding with the Jews. So, Arafat didn't encourage it (as the government didn't dictate their TV stations' programming, just like the BBC). And also, after Arafat's death, the new leader of the PLO has recently denounced the anti-Jewish programming on Palestinian TV, which is a step in the right direction.

All-in-all, I would say that the PLO and Israeli government are about equal. But not equally immoral, but rather equally striving towards peace, and with equally shadowy pasts. Only pro-Zionist radicals claim the PLO is an evil, terrorist organization against peace, or that Israel shouldn't compromise. And only Islamic extremists claim that the Israeli government is in a constant conspiracy to exterminate Muslims, and that Palestine shouldn't compromise.

And as I've said many times before--Palestine and Israel is just like India and Pakistan. Borders are being created because of religious prejudice. Eventually, we need to find a way to tear down these walls of hatred, to create a unified Palestine where Israelis and Palestinians can live together harmoniously. But that's a long, long, loooong ways away, and neither side wants to cooperate, so we just need to try to get the borders drawn to where both sides will agree.

Ah, I misunderstood the original question.

No, anyone who says the Israeli goverment is a terrorist organization, yeah.. They're Islamic extremists. But the PLO and the Israeli government are about the same for the reasons explained above.

Never said that the two are equivalent in any way. I have however said that killing civilians to prevent terrorisim is no excuse. It is not nesisarly anti-semitic to say that Israel is imperfect. Contrary to what some have said to me critisizing a government that happens to be composed of Jewish people is NOT the same as criticizing all Jewish people.

Never said that the two are equivalent in any way. I have however said that killing civilians to prevent terrorisim is no excuse. It is not nesisarly anti-semitic to say that Israel is imperfect. Contrary to what some have said to me critisizing a government that happens to be composed of Jewish people is NOT the same as criticizing all Jewish people.

You're quite right. It's not at all 'anti-semitic' to point out the inequities in the state of Israel, just as it wasn't 'anti-caucasian' for publicly finding fault with, and decrying Apartheid in South Africa.

*Edit: and it's spelled, 'necessarily', Eris. Sorry to nit-pick, that's just the Virgo in me coming out.

Never said that the two are equivalent in any way. I have however said that killing civilians to prevent terrorisim is no excuse.

I didnt say it was an "excuse" but its clearly very diffrent from intentionally killing civilians, which is what terrorists do.

One of the biggest problems in the region is the refusal to accept the existance of Israel by many members of the Arab world.

You're quite right. It's not at all 'anti-semitic' to point out the inequities in the state of Israel, just as it wasn't 'anti-caucasian' for publicly finding fault with, and decrying Apartheid in South Africa.


And yet 9 times out of 10 if someone says ANYTHING even remotely critical of Israel people will jump out of the wood work screaming anti-semite.

I didnt say it was an "excuse" but its clearly very diffrent from intentionally killing civilians, which is what terrorists do.

One of the biggest problems in the region is the refusal to accept the existance of Israel by many members of the Arab world.

*Dons Tactical Dreadnought armour*

Personally I wouldn't accept a government that drives bulldozers though the homes of innocent people, discriminates at every level against the same people and pursues an expansionist agenda either.

The Israelis most certainly do kill civilians intentionally, either by bulldozing them or by shooting them when they try to stop the bulldozers.

This is something that has annoyed me for a great ammount of time. The idea that sub-national groups that commit the kind of atrocities such as 7/7 and the suicicde bombings in Israel are morraly the same as the forces that try to stop them, just with diffrent aims and methods. This is not the case. People who support this arguement basicly go on to say "but the Isralies kill civilians too" yes, but they do it while trying to eliminate terrorists. The Jewish Terrorists (AKA Israel Army) kill Civilians trying to stop the Intifada...

The Palestinean Terrorists (AKA Muslim Freedom Fighters) Kill Civilians Trying to stop the occupation of Palestine...

Stop the Occupation, go home, and the War will end.

They are both terrorist...they both use terror to get what they want.

*Dons Tactical Dreadnought armour*

Personally I wouldn't accept a government that drives bulldozers though the homes of innocent people, discriminates at every level against the same people and pursues an expansionist agenda either.

The Israelis most certainly do kill civilians intentionally, either by bulldozing them or by shooting them when they try to stop the bulldozers.


<waits for you to be incorectly label "anti-semite">

Oh and stop saying 7/7.

Call it what it was, don't turn it into a stupid, snappy catchphrase to be trotted out like 9/11 is.

<waits for you to be incorectly label "anti-semite">

That's why I donned the armour. I know this place. :p

The Jewish Terrorists (AKA Israel Army) kill Civilians trying to stop the Intifada...

The Palestinean Terrorists (AKA Muslim Freedom Fighters) Kill Civilians Trying to stop the occupation of Palestine...

Stop the Occupation, go home, and the War will end.

They are both terrorist...they both use terror to get what they want.

See, this is exactly the kind of ignorence that is the problem with peoples perception of Israel. Israel is not perfect, but it certianly is morraly superior to the PLO, since the PLO just go around killing any civilians they can, where as the Isralies are trying to target intentionally terrorists. Notice that Israel does have the rights to the land, as the Palistianians have not yet complied with UN resolution 242.

See, this is exactly the kind of ignorence that is the problem with peoples perception of Israel. Israel is not perfect, but it certianly is morraly superior to the PLO, since the PLO just go around killing any civilians they can, where as the Isralies are trying to target intentionally terrorists. Notice that Israel does have the rights to the land, as the Palistianians have not yet complied with UN resolution 242.

Now this is the kind of ignorance that colours peoples perceptions of the PLO. The PLO is not perfect but is morally superior to the IDF since the IDF kills civilians for kicks while the PLO doesn't kill anyone. Note that Israel were given the rights to half the land they now have and have launched an illegal invasion of Palestinian land.

Firstly, President Shrub, I'd like to thank you for such an intelligble response (even though I disagree with some of what you said!). It's good to see that someone out there knows how to spell.

I'd like to clear up a few problems, though, with your facts. The Haganah, the forerunner of the modern IDF, was the moderate "terrorist group" among the Zionists. The Irgun and the Stern Gang, which were more extreme, were more renowned for violence, but even they never attacked civilians. The Zionist groups pre-independence targetted their attacks solely at British troops, outposts, and convoys. They were, by and large, a military, attacking military units. I'm not saying there aren't radicals or crazies, just that the facts are slightly different. Your reasoning, by the way, was flawless.

The second big mistake you take is neglecting the current proceedings of the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization, not Labor), or at least proceeding up till recently. The PLO pays several thousand dollars to the families of every suicide bomber. That constitutes a monetary endorsement of terrorism. The PLO continues to profess an intent of driving the "dirty Zionist entity" into the sea - that is, destroying the entire Jewish presence in the region. They *still* say this.

There is a noticable drive towards peace. The majority, the vast majority, on both sides does not want the kind of crap that goes on today to be the norm for the next 20, 30 years and so forth. But what we have is a case of the loud and bullying few taking the mic away from the sensible many. The moderates do not speak out, and people are hurt.

Now this is the kind of ignorance that colours peoples perceptions of the PLO. The PLO is not perfect but is morally superior to the IDF since the IDF kills civilians for kicks while the PLO doesn't kill anyone. Note that Israel were given the rights to half the land they now have and have launched an illegal invasion of Palestinian land.

You, however, don't know what the hell you're talking about. Read a newspaper, or for that matter, my previous reply. Then consider that the Israelis took that land in 1948 because the Arab nations told them that if they left to the safety of the West Bank and Gaza they'd get their land back when the Israelis were obliterated. To the victor goes the spoils; the Israelis advanced on empty homes in '48.

See, this is exactly the kind of ignorence that is the problem with peoples perception of Israel. Israel is not perfect, but it certianly is morraly superior to the PLO, since the PLO just go around killing any civilians they can, where as the Isralies are trying to target intentionally terrorists.

And their familys.

You, however, don't know what the hell you're talking about. Read a newspaper, or for that matter, my previous reply. Then consider that the Israelis took that land in 1948 because the Arab nations told them that if they left to the safety of the West Bank and Gaza they'd get their land back when the Israelis were obliterated. To the victor goes the spoils; the Israelis advanced on empty homes in '48.

The British were in the process of preparing an Israeli state in 48. Ben Gurion charged in and invaded the lot. Britain and the rest then cozied up with Israel and left the Palestinians to stew. Israel has now attacked more Palestinian land and, due to their nukes now go unchallenged by the Arab nations.

See, this is exactly the kind of ignorence that is the problem with peoples perception of Israel. Israel is not perfect, but it certianly is morraly superior to the PLO, since the PLO just go around killing any civilians they can, where as the Isralies are trying to target intentionally terrorists. Notice that Israel does have the rights to the land, as the Palistianians have not yet complied with UN resolution 242.If in order to be "Morraly" superior...I have to be on the IDF side (Jew Terrorists)...

Then I want nothing to do with your "morrality"...You can keep it all.

Now this is the kind of ignorance that colours peoples perceptions of the PLO. The PLO is not perfect but is morally superior to the IDF since the IDF kills civilians for kicks while the PLO doesn't kill anyone. Note that Israel were given the rights to half the land they now have and have launched an illegal invasion of Palestinian land.

Dont be imature

The "invasion" of Palistianinan land is not Illegal (see UN security council resolution 242)

Hammass and the PLO (and other Palistian terrorists) do kill people, and the IDF does not kill civilians for kicks.

The Arab world, in many cases, simpley refuse to believe that Israel has a right to exist and believe it to be some sort of entitiy forced upon them by the West (particually Britain), which is not the case. Israel is the culmination of a wave of European Anti-Semitism and Jewish labour in Palistine. Most of what we now call Israel was owned by Arab absentee landlords living in Syria and Egypt. The Jewish settlers bought the land, which was often non arrable. The Isralies also did not "displace" the existing Arab communities. The number who moved as a result of the creation of Israel was far less than the number moved as a result of the creation of the Aswan dam.

The British were in the process of preparing an Israeli state in 48. Ben Gurion charged in and invaded the lot. Britain and the rest then cozied up with Israel and left the Palestinians to stew. Israel has now attacked more Palestinian land and, due to their nukes now go unchallenged by the Arab nations.

Incomplete. The British mandate for Palestine provided for two territories, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs (the Jewish one was actually bisected midway, with a full 50 miles separating it from the holiest city in Judaism, Jerusalem). The Jews accepted this, grateful that they even got a nation. The Arab leaders, on behalf of the Palestinians (who got no voice in the decision), rejected it; they would not allow their pure little corner of the world to be infected by a Jewish presence. Ben Gurion did not "charge in and invade;" he was attacked by half a dozen Arab nations and defended himself rightfully. The Israelis lost 1% of their population in the War of Independence, which for a new nation is a huge percentage.

Again, I'll say: the Arabs were the ones who refused to absorb the Palestinians so that they would instead stew and come to a nice litlle boil of terrorism surrounding the Jews.

Please read something, anything, about what you think you know about before posting about half-cocked like a rooster without his head.

If in order to be "Morraly" superior...I have to be on the IDF side (Jew Terrorists)...

Then I want nothing to do with your "morrality"...You can keep it all.

This however comes perilously close to the point where an acusation of anti-semitisim might be accurate . . .

If in order to be "Morraly" superior...I have to be on the IDF side (Jew Terrorists)...

Then I want nothing to do with your "morrality"...You can keep it all.

You do know what you're saying, yes?

Firstly, saying "Jew Terrorists" is highly offensive and shows off your own ignorance.

Secondly, people who pay people for commiting terrorism (see above) are terrorists; people who make a point of avoiding intentionally targeting civilians are not.

You do know what you're saying, yes?

Firstly, saying "Jew Terrorists" is highly offensive and shows off your own ignorance.

Secondly, people who pay people for commiting terrorism (see above) are terrorists; people who make a point of avoiding intentionally targeting civilians are not.

They avoid intentionally targeting civilians by launching missiles into crowded streets to kill one man (snipers would work better . . .) and bulldozing houses?

If in order to be "Morraly" superior...I have to be on the IDF side (Jew Terrorists)...

Then I want nothing to do with your "morrality"...You can keep it all.

Its not about the side your on, its about what each side is doing

Theres an obvious moral differnce between intending to kill civilians and killing civillians as a result of attempting to kill terrorists.

The names in this situation could be applied to any people, be it Israel or Palistine or any other situation. The point being that if you intentionally kill people not involved with the conflict your obviously morally worse than if you kill people not involved with the conflict as a result of trying to kill those who are.


And their familys..

To be fair, if they are living with their families or using them as human shields then its hardly the fault of the IDF if they die.

Israel is the culmination of a wave of European...Israel is the culmination of human stupidity...the ones that think that God wants us to kill each other just to artficially keep afloat a Jewish State...in the middle of Dozens of Muslims states

"God's Chosen People"...really?

They avoid intentionally targeting civilians by launching missiles into crowded streets to kill one man (snipers would work better . . .) and bulldozing houses?

Crowds of people who are shouting "Mohammads religion was born of the sword" and storming the IDF postions. That crowd is often most likely trying to defend the one man you refer to.

They avoid intentionally targeting civilians by launching missiles into crowded streets to kill one man (snipers would work better . . .) and bulldozing houses?

They stopped bulldozing houses 6 months ago.

I agree that the giant missile strikes are obscenely unnecessary. No one's perfect. Then again, the target is the terrorist leader; with the Palestinian terrorists, the target is random Israeli civilians.

Israel is the culmination of human stupidity...the ones that think that God wants us to kill each other just to artficially keep afloat a Jewish State...in the middle of Dozens of Muslims states

"God's Chosen People"...really?

Please do me a favor and stop flaming. My I.G.N.O.R.E. cannons are at the ready.

Firstly, saying "Jew Terrorists" is highly offensive .sue me.

Crowds of people who are shouting "Mohammads religion was born of the sword" and storming the IDF postions. That crowd is often most likely trying to defend the one man you refer to.

The crowds I was refering to were in cars trying to get to and from work . . .

Please do me a favor and stop flaming. My I.G.N.O.R.E. cannons are at the ready.Im going to miss you. :D

Secondly, people who pay people for commiting terrorism (see above) are terrorists; people who make a point of avoiding intentionally targeting civilians are not.
My taxes are used to pay people for commiting terrorism in the Middle East...(Billion$$)

I want a Referendum on the subject.
I want it on 2008.

You do know what you're saying, yes?of course I do.

Jews and Arabs both use terror in the ME...and it has been going on since 1948...

It has been long enough...

This however comes perilously close to the point where an acusation of anti-semitisim might be accurate . . .

The IDF are Jews. It's something of their defining point. They also act in a manner that some consider terroristic.

Do you object to terms like Islamofascist and Muslim Terrorist?

Firstly, President Shrub, I'd like to thank you for such an intelligble response (even though I disagree with some of what you said!). It's good to see that someone out there knows how to spell.

I'd like to clear up a few problems, though, with your facts. The Haganah, the forerunner of the modern IDF, was the moderate "terrorist group" among the Zionists. The Irgun and the Stern Gang, which were more extreme, were more renowned for violence, but even they never attacked civilians. The Zionist groups pre-independence targetted their attacks solely at British troops, outposts, and convoys. They were, by and large, a military, attacking military units. I'm not saying there aren't radicals or crazies, just that the facts are slightly different. Your reasoning, by the way, was flawless.

The second big mistake you take is neglecting the current proceedings of the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization, not Labor), or at least proceeding up till recently. The PLO pays several thousand dollars to the families of every suicide bomber. That constitutes a monetary endorsement of terrorism. The PLO continues to profess an intent of driving the "dirty Zionist entity" into the sea - that is, destroying the entire Jewish presence in the region. They *still* say this.

There is a noticable drive towards peace. The majority, the vast majority, on both sides does not want the kind of crap that goes on today to be the norm for the next 20, 30 years and so forth. But what we have is a case of the loud and bullying few taking the mic away from the sensible many. The moderates do not speak out, and people are hurt.
Your point is well-taken and I agree, you're right, the Israelis do somewhat have the moral high-ground. But I think we need denounce the PLO's acts and not the group. That's how they'll achieve peace. And lastly, I don't believe the Israeli occupation was ever justified to begin with. They hadn't owned the land for thousands of years... Just because a bunch of anti-Arab, Zionists emigrated there is no reason to give them their own country. I'm also skeptical of their claims that the Palestinians would outnumber them if they unified, because the Israeli population has exploded within the last century because of immigration, making them go from being a small minority to about on-par with the Palestinians.

Whether or not the Palestinians would outnumber them in a unified Palestine also depends on whether or not Islam has the same beliefs about procreation that Judaism does. In Judaism, you can never have "too many children." If that isn't also true of Islam, then their claims about being outnumbered by Palestinians is false, and a unified Palestine, run by Palestinians and Israelis in harmony should be formed... Eventually. Years and years in the future.

My taxes are used to pay people for commiting terrorism in the Middle East...(Billion$$)
No, the American aid to Israel is so they don't have to come to terms with a more permanent solution for survival. We pay to ease the internal pressures of their society, which in turn buys us leverage to prevent them from going (what we might consider) too far. Image how easy the choice would be if they were shunned by the world and weren't dependant on US aid. There isn't a downside the Israelies face from the arabs, nothing would change. US aid to Israel is the insurance we pay on Palestinian lives.

US aid to Israel is the insurance we pay on Palestinian lives.US Billions (aid) to Israel is used to kill Palestinians.

as a consequence Palestinians and Arabs hate the US...some say they Danced when we were hit by AQ.

they were not willing to suicide in order to kill a few of US...not before we started to pay for Jewish Bombs and bullets.

US welfare to Israel is used to kill Palestinians.

Palestinians and Arabs hate the US...some say they Danced when we were hit by AQ.

they did not hate US before the creation of Israel.
That old saw has seen better days. The simple fact is the Israelies could exterminate all the Palestinians in short order, and any attempt to stop them even by first world powers would be a risky proposition. The aid they get is how we buy stability and keep them from even considering their own little version of The Indian Wars.

The Arabs hate the US because we're free and rich, they're oppressed and poor (entirely by their own people, we just back the governments they are able to form) and their book says it should be the otherway around. Of course the reality is their culture evolved in the desert which, pre-industrially, fostered certain anachronisms that are unwieldy in the modern world. What made Arabs and Islamists hate us was global communications when they found out how completely shitty their lives were as a result of their ass backwards ways of doing things.

Moral Equivalence, hey?

Why is it simplistic to say that a dead person is a dead person, regardless of intent?
The vast, vast majority of dead Palestinians had nothing to do with Terrorism.
The intent is revenge and deterrent, not destroying the Terrorists. Saying anything contrary to that would be naive. No one has ever stopped terrorism with guns.

As always I would like to add that in none of the wars was it entirely one side's fault. It always takes two to make war.

BTW: The PLO is a political party now. You mean the Al-Aqsa Martyrs.
And Hamas is a lot like Haganah used to be actually. It's a community organisation, buidling schools, mosques etc and funding other "community projects" like blowing up people.

dp

The Arabs hate the US because we're free and rich, they're oppressed and poor ...
:rolleyes:

The Arabs hate the US because we're free and rich, they're oppressed and poor ...

And why do they remain poor? If you can answer that correctly congratulations, you just hit on the idea that can end war and poverty.

The Arabs hate the US because we're free and rich.
hahaha...

Mr President is that You?...its past you bedtime isnt it Mr President?
...
here Mr President...have a nice yellow banana :)

And why do they remain poor? If you can answer that correctly congratulations, you just hit on the idea that can end war and poverty.
Primarily their desert culture. If they abandond that for more modern ways, they'd find more time and that freedom isn't so scary for other people to have. War can't be stopped, as long as there is competition for resources where people can't agree, there will be war. Poverty is a little different. While it can't be eliminated, the bar can be raised substantially for most people.

Primarily their desert culture.
You act like they are savages or something.
For a thousand years or so they were the prime culture of learning and invention (apart from China).
You need to look for the reasons in the downfall of the Osman Empire and what happened after that.

You act like they are savages or something.
For a thousand years or so they were the prime culture of learning and invention (apart from China).
You need to look for the reasons in the downfall of the Osman Empire and what happened after that.

The Ottoman empire was colapsing internally for a while. Bad economy coupled with numerous ethnicities wanting their own nations brought that sucker to its knees. I think when he says desert he means more to the effect of a non-industrialized nation. It has some factories and what not but nothing to the effect of england, america, and other first world countries.

-snip-
But that has more to do with Economics and Colonialism, as well as ethnic tensions than with Culture.
He makes a clear argument that "our culture" is superiour to "their culture". I disagree.

The terrorists who attack military targets are on the same moral standing as the military personal who attack military targets.

Anyone who intentionally targets civilians is on a different moral standing, alongside other murderers.

Unfortunately some wars can't be won without striking at civilians, we just like to call it 'strategic bombing' instead of 'wholesale murder'.

The terrorists who attack military targets are on the same moral standing as the military personal who attack military targets.

Anyone who intentionally targets civilians is on a different moral standing, alongside other murderers.

Unfortunately some wars can't be won without striking at civilians, we just like to call it 'strategic bombing' instead of 'wholesale murder'.
"Strategic bombing" is usually aimed at "strategic" targets -ones with military value- not at civilians as primary targets. It is ridiculous to equate collateral damage with the terrorists' strategy of targeting civilians as a primary method of warfare.

Then again, it is the ridiculous that tends to be popular in this post-modern mess.

The vast, vast majority of dead Palestinians had nothing to do with Terrorism.

On the contrary. The vast majority of Palestinians killed were combatants, and a whopping ten percent (one out of each ten!) of Palestinian non-combatants were killed by the Palestinians themselves. You have, I believe, referenced the www.ict.org.il link yourself in your other posts in other threads. Do go back to it and check out the statistics before making idiotic charges like that.

When Israel pulls out of the illegally occupied territories I might have some sympathy for the country, but until they do then I see them as no better than Iraq when it invaded Kuwait.

The creation of the nation of Israel was the biggest mistake of the 20th century.

The IDF are Jews. It's something of their defining point. They also act in a manner that some consider terroristic.

Actualy I was thinking his use of "Jew Terrorist" (rather than Jewish) was sounding perilously close to the way people talk about the "Jew" media and those "Jew" bankers. Illogical reasoning on my part but when phrased "Jew" rather than "Jewish" I most often hear it out of the mouths or key boards of card carrying anti-semites.

Do you object to terms like Islamofascist and Muslim Terrorist?

Actualy yes. I realy don't see a need to diferentiate between types of terrorist.

*Dons Tactical Dreadnought armour*

Personally I wouldn't accept a government that drives bulldozers though the homes of innocent people, discriminates at every level against the same people and pursues an expansionist agenda either.

The Israelis most certainly do kill civilians intentionally, either by bulldozing them or by shooting them when they try to stop the bulldozers.
Got to love people who accept the bold-faced lies and misdirection put out by news organizations about stuff concerning Israel. Corrie was not intentionally run over, she was trying to crawl up the blade of the dozer while it was moving. It's not like the driver could have seen her, especially the way those things are armored.

For another grand example of misdirection and deceit, look at this:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050724/481/jrl11107241455

This picture released by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement on Sunday, July 24, 2005, shows Islamic Jihad activist Yahea Abu Taha, 22, right, and Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades activist Tareq Yassin, 23, getting ready prior to attacking an Israeli target at the Kissufim crossing, between Israel and the Gush Katif block of settlements in the southern Gaza Strip early Sunday. According to Islamic Jihad these two Palestinian gunmen opened fire on an Israeli vehicle traveling on the main road connecting the Gaza Strip settlements to Israel early Sunday, killing two Israelis and wounding four others, rescue workers said. (AP Photo)

Now, one would think from that discription that the target may have been military in nature. one would be wrong, however.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1122085380263

Dov, 58, and Rahel, 53, had spent Shabbat with her sister in Ganei Tal, and were returning to Jerusalem.

Thousands attended their funeral at Jerusalem's Har Menuhot cemetery on Sunday night. The couple are survived by their three children, Yehonathan, 15, Tamar, 17 and Hila, 24.

And of course, the AP would never dirty their newsprint with the word terrorist.

it all stems back a long way which i can tbe bothered typing, at the moment, I support the Arabs on this cause,
i know innocent civilians get caught up in thier actions,
but its the stubborn governments not recognising the existance of Palestine, which they sat thier asses on. people go on about not recognising israel but the Palestinians are less recognised. i feel sorry for the innocents in the attacks, but less for the army and people organising the reprisals against the PLO.

later in my life i hope to travel to palestine to help some people, and save live. probably in my student gap years

Got to love people who accept the bold-faced lies and misdirection put out by news organizations about stuff concerning Israel. Corrie was not intentionally run over, she was trying to crawl up the blade of the dozer while it was moving. It's not like the driver could have seen her, especially the way those things are armored.
I've once posted photos of an armored Israeli D9. They mount these solid metal bars on the driver's window that really obstruct visibility (protection from stone throwers), and the blade itself is so high you simply cannot see someone who is standing right in front of it.


For another grand example of misdirection and deceit, look at this:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050724/481/jrl11107241455



Now, one would think from that discription that the target may have been military in nature. one would be wrong, however.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1122085380263



And of course, the AP would never dirty their newsprint with the word terrorist.

AP does that stuff all the time. Calling cities inside the 1949 Israeli borders "settlements", giving misleading headlines... Others do it too, all the time. Here, (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4565053.stm) for example, is a BBC story headlined "Militant shot dead in Gaza attack", implying that the "militant" was the one who was attacked. (The original headline of this story was even more slanted- "Palestinian killed in Gaza attack"). Most people would mainly remember the headline, and I have actually had someone on another board linking to this article as an example of Israel violating the "truce". The actual story, of course, is that the "militant" was the one attacking an Israeli settlement and was killed when the IDF returned fire.

My opinion of the two groups is as follows:
Israeli government - Their army originally evolved out of the Zionist, terrorist group, Haganah. Haganah was a terrorist group, did commit bombings and kill civilians. So, the individuals in the Israeli army are not without dirty hands. Haganah, also, at one point, had friendly relations with the Nazis because they weren't aware of the Holocaust and they feared the Britain more than Germany (I can quote the exact page of "The Idiot's Guide to the Middle East," if you'd like).

Israeli intelligence, in the 50's, also bombed Egypt in an attempt to exacerbate the Suez Canal crisis by pretending to be Egyptian forces. Furthermore, Israeli intelligence was also caught torturing suspects a while ago, but at the same time, I believe most first-world countries such as America, Britain, and France do this, but that we simply aren't aware of it. When it was discovered, the Israeli government denounced the torture and dealt with it appropriately--but the fact that it went on at all was startling.

And lastly, statistically, there are more Palestinians killed in that region that Israelis. So, the security of Palestinians should certainly be far more important. I mean, of course, we need to protect Israeli's nukes, but it's wrong for there to be such an overwhelming disproportionate amount of fatalities (3 Palestinians dead for every Israeli). When it comes to Israelis killing innocents, I don't believe it's at the will of the government, but nor do I believe it's isolated cases, either. I believe that in many cases, it's simply accidents. But in many other cases, it is the prejudices of individual Israelis. Finally, I believe that if we had never supported Israel, that Zionist terrorist groups would still be a major problem today. But currently, the Israeli government is a democracy and a fairly civilized one at that, as they don't even have a death penalty. Yes, they partially evolved from terrorist groups, but that's not the attitude they share, overall, today. So, pretty much, the Israeli government is civilized. But there are radicals, both within it and throughout the country. For example, after Arafat died, one Israeli newsmedia said Arafat was a homosexual, because he had a "disease which had symptoms similar to AIDS." The idea that AIDS is a gay disease is so ignorant that the Jewish groups' radicalism goes without saying.
The shear idea of picking apart this post is mind boggling. Despite the fact that Haganah played a large role in early Israel, there were also many zionist fronts that were peaceful, just Haganah was more known. Some of the peaceful ones are still around and very secretive.
Another note about the difference between death rates. In Israel we have many Palestinians in Israel and some particular terrorist seem to like areas where there are more of their own kind than Israelis. I seem to remember some statistics stating this, my ability to quote exactly is not great.
Ignorant Israelis is nothing to comment about, we are a democracy we dont force people to have common ideas, not do we monitour our news posts. If you look in any country it is just the same, in the US I know I have had many racist comments, such dirty towel-head, despite I am Jewish and work for the Israeli government and therefore never have worn a turban. So for comments about ignorance, I think you should hold yuor tongue against Israel.

The Isralie army and the Palistianian terrorists are NOT morally equivelent

I completely agree.

The Israeli armed forces, the IDF, are answerable to a democratic government of a supposedly civilised nation, Israel. Therefore, in my opinion, they have the moral duty to act within the law and to uphold United Nations human rights standards and resolutions. Unfortunately, as sad and disgusting as it is, one expects terrorists to act outside the law. Undoubtabely those terrorists that attack Israelis (even those that are on illegally occupied territory) and Israel are acting in an absolutely unacceptable way. However, the Israeli democratic government has the moral duty to fight crime responsibly. Unannouced assinations and attacks spurred purely by revenge (such as demolitions of Palestian housing etc) are disgusting acts for a nation state to commit and lower the nation state to the same level as terrorists.

I completely agree.
However, the Israeli democratic government has the moral duty to fight crime responsibly.
Crime???

And here we were thinking it was a WAR we've been fighting all this time :rolleyes:

See, this is exactly the kind of ignorence that is the problem with peoples perception of Israel. Israel is not perfect, but it certianly is morraly superior to the PLO, since the PLO just go around killing any civilians they can, where as the Isralies are trying to target intentionally terrorists. Notice that Israel does have the rights to the land, as the Palistianians have not yet complied with UN resolution 242.

Now this is the kind of ignorance that colours peoples perceptions of the PLO. The PLO is not perfect but is morally superior to the IDF since the IDF kills civilians for kicks while the PLO doesn't kill anyone. Note that Israel were given the rights to half the land they now have and have launched an illegal invasion of Palestinian land.

Interesting fact of this thread:
Mikheilistan post an inflammatory comment.
Wurzelmania post a satire of said inflammatory comment.

And it's Wurzermania who gets attacked.
I would like all the kettle to say to the pot that they are black too. It's only fair, I think.

I completely agree.

The Israeli armed forces, the IDF, are answerable to a democratic government of a supposedly civilised nation, Israel. Therefore, in my opinion, they have the moral duty to act within the law and to uphold United Nations human rights standards and resolutions. Unfortunately, as sad and disgusting as it is, one expects terrorists to act outside the law. Undoubtabely those terrorists that attack Israelis (even those that are on illegally occupied territory) and Israel are acting in an absolutely unacceptable way. However, the Israeli democratic government has the moral duty to fight crime responsibly. Unannouced assinations <snip>

I've got no problem with assassinations, they're a good tactic to get rid of one enemys without harming civilians. What I have a problem with are these gods damned MOB HITS people are calling assassinations these days. What ever happened to making it look like a heart attack, or a mugging, or sucide?

Crime???

And here we were thinking it was a WAR we've been fighting all this time :rolleyes:
President Abbas is not waging war against you. Palestine is not at war with Israel. Terrorists attacks are disgusting and appalling for whatever cause. However, calling it a war is outrageous. It's like saying because the suspects in the London bombings are from Pakistan, Pakistan is at war with the United Kingdom. Crazy in my opinion.

I've got no problem with assassinations, they're a good tactic to get rid of one enemys without harming civilians. What I have a problem with are these gods damned MOB HITS people are calling assassinations these days. What ever happened to making it look like a heart attack, or a mugging, or sucide?

Assassinations are state-endorsements of murder. They way they are deployed in a summary fashion by Israel is even worse than the way some nations deploy the death penalty - at least most victims of this form of state-endorsed murder get a trial.

To foresake the legal process is sinking to the level of the terrorist. It's the same tactic - a terrorists argues his cause through ignoring the law and established international conventions to try and achieve his goal. If the state then uses the same tactics it is no better than the terrorist.

I completely agree.

The Israeli armed forces, the IDF, are answerable to a democratic government of a supposedly civilised nation, Israel. Therefore, in my opinion, they have the moral duty to act within the law and to uphold United Nations human rights standards and resolutions. Unfortunately, as sad and disgusting as it is, one expects terrorists to act outside the law. Undoubtabely those terrorists that attack Israelis (even those that are on illegally occupied territory) and Israel are acting in an absolutely unacceptable way. However, the Israeli democratic government has the moral duty to fight crime responsibly. Unannouced assinations and attacks spurred purely by revenge (such as demolitions of Palestian housing etc) are disgusting acts for a nation state to commit and lower the nation state to the same level as terrorists.
In my opinion you're being way too hard on the Israelis. Targeted killing of terrorist leaders reduces the need for full scale invasions of palestinian towns and the resulting civilian casualties. Demolishing the homes of suicide bombers provides an economic disincentive for palestinian parents to raise their kids to be human bombs.

Israel has shown incredible restraint in fighting Palestinian terrorism. Personally If I were in their position I would be tempted to destroy an entire Palestinian neighborhood without warning for each terrorist attack against Israel.

President Abbas is not waging war against you. Palestine is not at war with Israel. Terrorists attacks are disgusting and appalling for whatever cause. However, calling it a war is outrageous. It's like saying because the suspects in the London bombings are from Pakistan, Pakistan is at war with the United Kingdom. Crazy in my opinion.
That's because you're still not getting it. President Abbas may not be waging a war on us, but a war is being waged on us from his territory and he isn't doing a damned thing. In fact, his very own Fatah movement is involved in attacks on Israel. It's a convenient position, yes, but dishonest to boot. Calling terrorism anything BUT acts of war is outrageous. Equating it with robberies and mugging is idiocy of the worst kind.

Assassinations are state-endorsements of murder.

War isn't?

They way they are deployed in a summary fashion by Israel is even worse than the way some nations deploy the death penalty - at least most victims of this form of state-endorsed murder get a trial.

Israel doesn't employ assassination, they employ mob hits.

President Abbas is not waging war against you. Palestine is not at war with Israel. Terrorists attacks are disgusting and appalling for whatever cause. However, calling it a war is outrageous. It's like saying because the suspects in the London bombings are from Pakistan, Pakistan is at war with the United Kingdom. Crazy in my opinion.
It is a war. Hamas and PIJ have armies that use military weapons including surface to surface missiles, and mortars to kill Israeli civilians. Don't forget that Hamas has won some impressive electoral victories against the Fateh party. That makes them official representatives of the Palestinian people. Hamas has also stated that it wants to eliminate Israel.

So we have Hamas as an elected governing party of the palestinian people (Fateh maintains control only because the most recent round of elections were postponed by Abu Mazen), Hamas declaring that it wants to eliminate Israel, Hamas has an army, and it carries out attacks against Israel. How is that not a war?

In my opinion you're being way too hard on the Israelis. Targeted killing of terrorist leaders reduces the need for full scale invasions of palestinian towns and the resulting civilian casualties. Demolishing the homes of suicide bombers provides an economic disincentive for palestinian parents to raise their kids to be human bombs.

Demolshing homes makes them look like assholes and angers even more Palestinian's CREATING more suicide bombers.

In my opinion you're being way too hard on the Israelis. Targeted killing of terrorist leaders reduces the need for full scale invasions of palestinian towns and the resulting civilian casualties. Demolishing the homes of suicide bombers provides an economic disincentive for palestinian parents to raise their kids to be human bombs.

Israel has shown incredible restraint in fighting Palestinian terrorism. Personally If I were in their position I would be tempted to destroy an entire Palestinian neighborhood without warning for each terrorist attack against Israel.

I would say that Israel has more than once done exactly what you describe in your second paragraph: i.e. revenge attacks.

Israel often destroys more than just the suspected suicide bomber's house, it destroys the entire neighbourhood the house resides in.

Worse, they destroy houses that are on territory that belongs to Palestine (i.e. the West Bank and Gaza strip)

Demolshing homes makes them look like assholes and angers even more Palestinian's CREATING more suicide bombers.
Palestinian families are paid by charities when their sons and daughters commit suicide bombings. By demolishing the homes of those families it takes away some motivation a poor palestinian teen might have to blow himself up so that the rest of his family will be better off. It's a legitimate tactic.

I would say that Israel has more than once done exactly what you describe in your second paragraph: i.e. revenge attacks.

Israel often destroys more than just the suspected suicide bomber's house, it destroys the entire neighbourhood the house resides in.

Worse, they destroy houses that are on territory that belongs to Palestine (i.e. the West Bank and Gaza strip)
Maybe so, but considering the level of provocation they've had to deal with from terrorists I'd be tempted to destroy the neighborhood while the people are sleeping in their homes. That's why I think they've shown restraint.

Palestinian families are paid by charities when their sons and daughters commit suicide bombings. By demolishing the homes of those families it takes away some motivation a poor palestinian teen might have to blow himself up so that the rest of his family will be better off. It's a legitimate tactic.

So if hypotheticly you were to kill my wife because someone offered you money would it be valid for me to destroy the house your family lives in?

So if hypotheticly you were to kill my wife because someone offered you money would it be valid for me to destroy the house your family lives in?
If you had reason to beleive that others would accept money to attempt similar acts against your family, yep. It sure would be legitimate.

If you had reason to beleive that others would accept money to attempt similar acts against your family, yep. It sure would be legitimate.

Nope, it sure wouldn't. See your family didn't kill my wife, you did. (in the example at any rate)

Nope, it sure wouldn't. See your family didn't kill my wife, you did. (in the example at any rate)
So why should my family profit from me killing your wife? If there's money to be made by killing your family members, wouldn't that be an incentive for poor people who see you as subhuman anyway to go ahead and try to kill off your family? Doesn't it make sense to take away that financial motivation?

So why should my family profit from me killing your wife? If there's money to be made by killing your family members, wouldn't that be an incentive for poor people who see you as subhuman anyway to go ahead and try to kill off your family? Doesn't it make sense to take away that financial motivation?

What doesn't make sense is punishing those who aren't involved, especialy any children living in the house. Don't you think it would make you look more subhuman (to everyone this time not just racist bastards) to put a three year old out on the street because her brother/father/uncle/second-cousin-twice-removed-on-her-mothers-side did something that the child had no control over?

What doesn't make sense is punishing those who aren't involved, especialy any children living in the house. Don't you think it would make you look more subhuman (to everyone this time not just racist bastards) to put a three year old out on the street because her brother/father/uncle/second-cousin-twice-removed-on-her-mothers-side did something that the child had no control over?
They can use the charity money they get for the suicide bombing to build a new house. This way they end up a bit more poor for the suicide bombing rather than richer.

Israel doesn't employ assassination.
Israel assassinates.(Israel=Assassins)...and sometimes the Pals do too.

Israel assassinates.
The reason I am absolutely not worried about the future of Israel's cause is because the other side is represented by thoughtful, intelligent individuals such as OceamDrive, capable of such elaborate, logical posts :D

Israel assassinates.(Israel=Assassins)...and sometimes the Pals do too.
Your right for once. Assasinations are targeted killings of one's enemies. The palestinians slaughter women and children randomly.