NationStates Jolt Archive

Sinuhue had said, in another thread, that atheists can be spiritual so I looked up spiritual atheists out of curiosity and lo and behold: http://www.spiritualatheists.com/

I kind of find this hard to grasp - anyone else believe as these spiritual atheists do?

I hold no religion to be true. My spiritual beliefs pretty much amount to "There is an infinite consciousnesss beyond ours that permeates the entire universe" , simply because I belive that I had contact with it on more than one occasion <- It could probably be said in a better way but I can't seem to come up with it right now.

Anyway, thisisn't a thread about debating the existence of God... I think... I just want to know if there are any other spiritual atheists and what you believe because I love to see new points of view.

well i took a good look at the webpage and it seems to be one guy and his newagegurucult wannabe-ishness.

it calls itself a center but has no actual physical building that it is willing to admit to.

if i were a person who didnt believe in the classical GOD thing, i dont think i would ever sign up with this guy or call myself a spiritual atheist. in my opinion you are an atheist or not and calling god "the universe" doesnt make you an atheist.

well i took a good look at the webpage and it seems to be one guy and his newagegurucult wannabe-ishness.

it calls itself a center but has no actual physical building that it is willing to admit to.

if i were a person who didnt believe in the classical GOD thing, i dont think i would ever sign up with this guy or call myself a spiritual atheist. in my opinion you are an atheist or not and calling god "the universe" doesnt make you an atheist.

Yeah I wasn't quite understanding what they were saying. I'd like more input from people like Sinuhue that say atheists can be spiritually minded.

Although I am not so sure that a place has to have a building to be a center for something in all cases. A webpage can be a meeting place and be called a center as far as I am concerned.

It looked to me like the site contradicted itself almost immediately. When people say spiritual atheists, they smetimes mean humanists (http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentChapterView.asp?chapter=309) It depends exactly what you mean by spiritual, I suppose.

well i took a good look at the webpage and it seems to be one guy and his newagegurucult wannabe-ishness.

it calls itself a center but has no actual physical building that it is willing to admit to.

if i were a person who didnt believe in the classical GOD thing, i dont think i would ever sign up with this guy or call myself a spiritual atheist. in my opinion you are an atheist or not and calling god "the universe" doesnt make you an atheist.

I have recently been tossing around the notion that the Universe and God are one and the same, or at least part of the same. The idea certainly isn't atheistic by any stretch of the imagination.

Atheism basically just means you don't believe in gods, but the term doesn't inherently imply much else, so it isn't a contradiction at all.

My spiritual beliefs pretty much amount to "There is an infinite consciousnesss beyond ours that permeates the entire universe" , simply because I belive that I had contact with it on more than one occasion <- It could probably be said in a better way but I can't seem to come up with it right now.

I think that the question to ask here is "what were you smoking at the time?"

These so-called spiritual atheists aren't atheists, just theists taking God in a different direction. They recognise God as a physical representation of the universe, as well as psychological and spiritual.

I think that the question to ask here is "what were you smoking at the time?"

These so-called spiritual atheists aren't atheists, just theists taking God in a different direction. They recognise God as a physical representation of the universe, as well as psychological and spiritual.

The answer is: I have had spiritual experiences sober as well as under the influence of magical herbs/mushrooms.

I'm gunna reserve judgement on spiritual atheists until I hear from someone representing that point of view. That site really didnt clear anythign up for me, although i havent researched other spiritual atheist views online in depth.

Looked into it a bit more (what do you think?):


What do Atheists and Humanists Believe?

Humanists and Atheists do not believe in a Superior Supreme Deity that exists for the purpose of controling Man and Nature and the Cosmos. However, in contrast to the myth, Humanists and Atheists do not believe in nothing. For the most part, Humanists believe that the will of life and love and change comes from within people and within the community of people coming together for a common cause. Atheists believe that while there is no God, there is mystery and wonder to the universe and that is worthy of awe and honor. There are Humanists and Atheists who consider themselves religious and individuals who consider themselves spiritual. Both groups believe that the goal for their faith is to work toward developing a world that is better for everyone.

If there is no Deity/God figure, what figures do they see as sacred?

Often, Humanists and Atheists will revere the words of scholars and philosophers who have worked toward creating better understanding between people and civilizations. There is no worship or specific reverance for individuals in this belief system. For example, Albert Einstein is not prayed to nor are there any rituals per se performed for him or any other revered scholar/philosopher. Anyone who has made a significant contribution to the human condition is honored by the Atheists and Humanists, including religious figures such as Mother Theresa.



What Holy Days do Atheists and Humanists celebrate?

Most Atheists and Humanists do not celebrate Holy Days, per se. Most will contribute to secular holidays such as American Thanksgiving and familly celebrations which may include religious holidays like Easter, Christmas, Hannukah, etc. Some Atheists and Humanists honor days such as Martin Luther King Jr. Birthday, UN Sunday, Memorial Day and other holidays that were created from the work of people doing work for the world.

Are All Humanists and Atheists believe the same thing?

No, there are variations amongst these people just as any other faith path. There are Secular Humanists, Religious Atheists, Progressive Humanists, Existentialists, and many others.


Pantheism --> The belief that the natural universe in its entirety is identical to god, or can be regarded as divine, sublime, etc...

Question:
Can atheists be spiritual?



Response:
The problem with answering such a question is that the term "spiritual" is so vague and ill-defined most of the time. Usually when people use it they mean something similar to, but nevertheless very distinct from, religion. This is probably an improper usage, however, because there are very good reasons to think that spirituality is more a type of religion than anything else.

So what does this mean when it comes to whether atheists can be spiritual or not? If the general usage is mistaken and spirituality really is best described as a highly personalized and privatized religious belief system, then the answer to the question is clearly "yes." Atheism is not only compatible with the adoption of a public, organized religious belief system, it is also compatible with the adoption of a very personal and private religious faith.

On the other hand, if spirituality is treated as "something else," something fundamentally different from religion, then the question becomes harder to answer. Spirituality seems to be one of those words which has as many definitions as it does people trying to define it. Often it is used in conjunction with theism because people's spirituality is "God-centered." In such cases, it is unlikely that you could find an atheist who is "spiritual" because there is a real contradiction between living a "God-centered" life while not believing in the existence of any gods.

This is not, however, the only way the concept of "spirituality" can be used. For some people, it involves a variety of very personal things like self-realization, philosophical searching, etc. For many others, it is something like a very deep and strong emotional reaction to "wonders" of life - for example, gazing out at the universe on a clear night, seeing a newborn child, etc.

All of these and similar senses of "spirituality" are entirely compatible with atheism. There is nothing about atheism which prevents a person from have such experiences or quests. Indeed, for many atheists their atheism is a direct result of such philosophical searching and religious questioning - thus, one might argue that their atheism is an integral component of their "spirituality" and their ongoing search for meaning in life.

In the end, all of this vagueness prevents the concept of spirituality from carrying a great deal of cognitive content. It does, however, carry emotional content - much of what people describe as "spirituality" seems to have much more to do with emotional than intellectual reactions to events and experiences. So, when a person is using the term, they are more likely trying to convey something about their emotions and their emotional reactions to things than a coherent set of beliefs and ideas.

If an atheist is wondering if it would be appropriate to use the term "spiritual" when describing themselves and their attitudes, the question that must be asked is: does it have any emotional resonance with you? Does it "feel" like it conveys some aspect of your emotional life? If so, then it may be a term you can use and it will mean just what you "feel" it conveys. On the other hand, if it just feels empty and unnecessary, then you won't be using it because it just doesn't mean anything for you.

Haha! "Because life is not a test OR a contest." That made me laugh. They left out the word "pissin'."

"...recognize and understand God as the physical, psychological, and spiritual PERSONIFICATION of the eternal and infinite universe itself." Sounds like me, yeah.

Of course, now we're going to get called, "New Age." (will peruse the thread to see if it's occured yet, or will occur.)

EDIT: Oop! there it is. Second post, no less.

Well, before we begin debating, might it be nice to know what it is that you mean by 'spiritual'?

I kind of find this hard to grasp - anyone else believe as these spiritual atheists do?

I hold no religion to be true. My spiritual beliefs pretty much amount to "There is an infinite consciousnesss beyond ours that permeates the entire universe" , simply because I belive that I had contact with it on more than one occasion <- It could probably be said in a better way but I can't seem to come up with it right now.
Think of it this way: if you believe that somehow this "consciousness" contacted you, also, then you are a spiritual atheist --you have personified the thing.

Actually, it could be argued that it just being a "consciousness" is personification, as humans are the epitomy of consciousness, and then this consciousness-god is projection of that onto the universe, as a symbol of something transcending you.

I'm an atheist, through and through. However, I find many things "spiritual" I suppose "spiritual" can be subjective. I don't look at spiritual as a "other world" thing, or a divine intervention, or a god thing or anything like that. Spirituality can really just be a Zen thing. For example I find a lot of music very spiritual. That's just one example, I have many. But you get the gist.

For me spiritual has meaning in that "uh huh" moment. You can't explain it, but you have that brief second in your mind when something that wasn't clear to you becomes so clear it becomes a moment one could even call perhaps an epiphany, it only last for a second, then it's gone, but some how you know you're forever wiser for it. That is what I call an "Uh huh" moment and it's very spiritual. However I believe in the power of the mind, not the power of some spooky incompetent father figure who has issues with ego. ;)

if i were a person who didnt believe in the classical GOD thing, i dont think i would ever sign up with this guy or call myself a spiritual atheist. in my opinion you are an atheist or not and calling god "the universe" doesnt make you an atheist.
You know what the really great thing about this is? You don't have to sign up. You don't have to subscribe. You don't have to give them money or possessions. You don't have to leave home. You don't have to do anything, but inform yourself. That's all they ask.

Go figure.

Well, before we begin debating, might it be nice to know what it is that you mean by 'spiritual'?


I'm not here to debate, I'm here to understand. And spiritual can mean whatever you think it means.

These so-called spiritual atheists aren't atheists, just theists taking God in a different direction. They recognise God as a physical representation of the universe, as well as psychological and spiritual.
There is a major difference, though. They recognize god as a symbol, as "not real".

Think of it this way: if you believe that somehow this "consciousness" contacted you, also, then you are a spiritual atheist --you have personified the thing.

Actually, it could be argued that it just being a "consciousness" is personification, as humans are the epitomy of consciousness, and then this consciousness-god is projection of that onto the universe, as a symbol of something transcending you.

I think I see what you are saying but I don't think I am an Atheist because I believe this outside consciousness exists without my personification, projection or even acknowledgement of it. Besides I'm not personifying it, I am not saying this consciousness has emotions or a sex or judgements or anything. I'm not making any absolute judgements about it except that it's there. Also the atheist that might beleive in the Universe as God wouldnt believe in it's ability to communicate with us right? ANd if this consciousness exists then I don't think humans could be considered the epitomy of consciousness.

Well, before we begin debating, might it be nice to know what it is that you mean by 'spiritual'?
To me, spiritual means finding the meaning in nature. In philosophy, all things have a nature--characteristics and traits that define them. Being spiritual is finding meaning in the nature of things, and that includes (quoting from the website) "a highly personalized and privatized religious belief system", "self-realization, philosophical searching, etc." and "questing", which are part of the mythology, and "a very deep and strong emotional reaction" to things. All of these help things *mean something* to us (gives them significance).

Spiritual atheism is just another way of saying atheist.

Atheists still believe in something intangible (for the most part) even if they don't believe in god (or any other higher being as such).

Atheism just means that there is no god to the believer as such. This doesn't deny the existance of a spiritual world.

I'm an atheist, through and through. However, I find many things "spiritual" I suppose "spiritual" can be subjective. I don't look at spiritual as a "other world" thing, or a divine intervention, or a god thing or anything like that. Spirituality can really just be a Zen thing. For example I find a lot of music very spiritual. That's just one example, I have many. But you get the gist.

Do you believe in ghosts? What kind of explanation do you have for phenomenon like that? What about psychic phenomenon such as telekenesis, OOBE's, energy healing, past life experiences, visions of future events exactly as they will happen?

For me spiritual has meaning in that "uh huh" moment. You can't explain it, but you have that brief second in your mind when something that wasn't clear to you becomes so clear it becomes a moment one could even call perhaps an epiphany, it only last for a second, then it's gone, but some how you know you're forever wiser for it. That is what I call an "Uh huh" moment and it's very spiritual. However I believe in the power of the mind, not the power of some spooky incompetent father figure who has issues with ego. ;)

Yeah I love those Ah-hah moments! I don't see 'God' as a spooky incompetent father figure who has issues with ego either. It's doesn't necessarily have to be one or the other.

I'm so flattered I sparked your interest...but after looking at this page, I have to label 'spiritual atheism' in this sense as....agnosticism. Sorry. Atheist don't believe in God. Period. Not the modern or traditional view of a God.

I am spiritual in the sense that I believe there are forces beyond my ken, be they scientifically proven to exist or not, that I can not fully understand. I do not attribute these forces to a deity, but I am no less in awe at the wonder unfolding before me, the delightful complexity that exists in the simplest of organisms, to the most developed. The human 'spirit' amazes me...not as a religious object, but as an amazing force...I can be awed by the power of a storm, and not attribute it to the act of a God. I can be spiritual not in the sense of believing in a 'holy spirit' but rather in the natural miracles around me.

Spiritual atheism is just another way of saying atheist.

Atheists still believe in something intangible (for the most part) even if they don't believe in god (or any other higher being as such).

Atheism just means that there is no god to the believer as such. This doesn't deny the existance of a spiritual world.


What would an atheist consider to be a spiritual world? Sorry, my brain is very stubborn and is having a hard time coming to terms with this.

Now that I've gotten THAT out of my system...

...alright. I think all humans are capable of spirituality, whether they believe in a god or not. To me, there are four components to human existence.

1) physical
2) emotional
3) mental (cognitive)
4) spiritual

Spiritual is often used to mean "religious" but it need not be so. I believe that there are powerful forces of creation and destruction, but I do NOT believe that there is a sentient, omniscient 'Creator'.

I'm so flattered I sparked your interest...but after looking at this page, I have to label 'spiritual atheism' in this sense as....agnosticism. Sorry. Atheist don't believe in God. Period. Not the modern or traditional view of a God.

I am spiritual in the sense that I believe there are forces beyond my ken, be they scientifically proven to exist or not, that I can not fully understand. I do not attribute these forces to a deity, but I am no less in awe at the wonder unfolding before me, the delightful complexity that exists in the simplest of organisms, to the most developed. The human 'spirit' amazes me...not as a religious object, but as an amazing force...I can be awed by the power of a storm, and not attribute it to the act of a God. I can be spiritual not in the sense of believing in a 'holy spirit' but rather in the natural miracles around me.


Well of course you did! You're always challenging my brain.

Boss needs me bbl

1) physical
2) emotional
3) mental (cognitive)
4) spiritual

Spiritual is often used to mean "religious" but it need not be so. I believe that there are powerful forces of creation and destruction, but I do NOT believe that there is a sentient, omniscient 'Creator'.

No, spiritual simply means not tangible or material, and/or having the nature of a spirit. The word's origins have nothing to do with religion; spiritus was Latin for "breath", or the idea of a force that gives living beings their life or "essence". The idea existed long before religion, so it's hard to say spiritual=religion.

Sumamba Buwhan - No, I don't believe in ghosts, or anything like it.

Psychic phenomenon such as telekinesis etc can all be the power of the mind. If we look at the science of the brain, we find out fast that we only use about 10-12% of it to begin with. So for some, I believe they can tap into that other 88-90% of their brain. Of course not all, but even if you could push the average human who uses 10% to 15%, imagine the possibilities of the mind. I believe the mind has the ability to heal itself too. It's not prayer, it's the power of positive thinking.

On a different subject that Zep and I were talking about the other night, but the point can apply here to, is the thought of "Be the ball" if you can make yourself believe a rock can be the catalyst to you losing weight, stop smoking, whatever, you name it... then it can. It doesn't matter what it is, if you truly believe you can do it, you can. There is nothing in that, that is conflicted with being an atheist. So of course atheists can be spiritual. Of course it depends on what context people choose to put it in.

I think I see what you are saying but I don't think I am an Atheist because I believe this outside consciousness exists without my personification, projection or even acknowledgement of it. Besides I'm not personifying it, I am not saying this consciousness has emotions or a sex or judgements or anything. I'm not making any absolute judgements about it except that it's there.
Well, that's why I ask for clarification. If the consciousness "contacted you," then you are personifying it by giving it human-like abilities. Even by it being a "consciousness", you've given it a human-like characteristic. Personification is just symbols we give it, a way that we can talk about it or visualise something about it. That's not a bad thing.

Also the atheist that might beleive in the Universe as God wouldnt believe in it's ability to communicate with us right? ANd if this consciousness exists then I don't think humans could be considered the epitomy of consciousness.
Not "Universe as God", but rather "god as personification of the universe." The distinction is important --god is a symbol of the universe, not the universe itself. This personification, this symbol, allows man to have something to relate spiritually to --to build a spiritual relationship with and in contrast to it. Whether there is really something there or not doesn't matter, because what is important is what we do with the relationship we build around it.

It can only communicate to us in and through our imagination, and we can use that as a starting point for understanding it. For understanding ourselves.

What would an atheist consider to be a spiritual world? Sorry, my brain is very stubborn and is having a hard time coming to terms with this.
Buddhists, for example, while not believing in god, though revering the Buddha with great admiration and respect, believe in nirvana, the abolute nothingless of spirituality and reincarnation as a means of getting there.

It is possible to believe in the nymphs and spiritual inhabitants of nature, as the aboriginals do, without believing in a god.

As one (though actually a Secularist), we consider one to be that we discover ourselves; one that we learn through life is there. We don't need to be preached to; it's part of self-discovery (without the new age horse dung).

A spiritual atheist is an agnostic.

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A spiritual atheist is an agnostic.

[/thread]
No.

Atheism asserts that there is no god. However, it doesn't rule out other types of spiritual belief. Spiritual belief doesn't have a pre-requisite of any kind of concerete belief or waffling scepticism in god; it is something personal.

What would an atheist consider to be a spiritual world? Sorry, my brain is very stubborn and is having a hard time coming to terms with this.
Alright. I'll bite:).

As a native, many of our traditions and customs are based on spirituality. My people also believe in a 'Creator', a deity that made us, but I don't buy that. I believe in a 'Creation'...and act, a force set loose, a series of unfortunate events:), but not a being who made it happen.

And yet, the customs and traditions I follow are still spiritual. They are full of meaning beyond the acts themselves. They are a symbolic connection with 'something else'. I believe that that 'something else' are things we do not truly understand. Be they contact with 'ghosts' or 'spirits' (phenomena not fully explained by science yet), or experience with things we KNOW to be explained by science, yet no less amazing (ie, come on, you may know why it's raining frogs, but would you be any less gobsmacked?)

Spirituality is stepping out of time for a moment, forgetting the immediate, and thinking about the 'divine'. The long run. The past, the future...stretching out in its immensity. What are you doing RIGHT NOW to make an impact? What are your actions going to mean in the grand, unplanned, chaotic scheme of things? What is it you truly wish out of this existence you have somehow been tossed into?

I have to say, the most spiritual experiences I have ever had have been with my people, with the elders and the singers and the dancers....and then, oddly enough, getting deep into physics. Wow. That's some deep shit.

I worship the divine every day. Every time I look at my kids and go, "Wow. I know how that happened, but seriously...how did that happen? They're amazing!" Every time I smell cut grass and go, "mmmm. that is the perfect scent." Every time I eat prime rib and go, "Is there anything more perfect than this taste?" I can understand all sorts of scientific explanations...but they only explain the how, not the why. For me, the why is not something I want to simplify with descriptions of Gods. I want to keep it in its inexplicable, sometimes glimpsed, often lost, amazing randomness.

This doesn't deny the existance of a spiritual world.
Spiritual atheism, as far as I have seen, has nothing to do with ghosts.

No, spiritual simply means not tangible or material, and/or having the nature of a spirit. The word's origins have nothing to do with religion; spiritus was Latin for "breath", or the idea of a force that gives living beings their life or "essence". The idea existed long before religion, so it's hard to say spiritual=religion.
I'm talking about my view, not a definition.

Do you believe in ghosts? What kind of explanation do you have for phenomenon like that? What about psychic phenomenon such as telekenesis, OOBE's, energy healing, past life experiences, visions of future events exactly as they will happen?
I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to clarify that I believe there are no such things as ghosts, psychic phenomenon, telekinesis, out of body experiences, energy healing, past life, etc. They are all explanable as imaginings. Even stage performers (reputable ones) insist they are "illusions."

No.

Atheism asserts that there is no god. However, it doesn't rule out other types of spiritual belief. Spiritual belief doesn't have a pre-requisite of any kind of concerete belief or waffling scepticism in god; it is something personal.
I'm going to have to argue with that. An atheist does not believe in a higher, omniscienct power. Agnostics don't believe in organised religion, or one particular 'god'...but they DO believe that there is a 'higher power'.


From Merrian Webster online:

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Main Entry: athe·ist
Pronunciation: 'A-thE-ist
Function: noun
: one who believes that there is no deity

Spiritual atheism, as far as I have seen, has nothing to do with ghosts.
The spiritual world isn't just "ghosts"; it's the spirits of the living and dead. They go there either during sleep or after death... anything is possible, amd those so-called out-of-body experiences? Is that not an experience in the spirtual world?

The answer is: I have had spiritual experiences sober as well as under the influence of magical herbs/mushrooms.
I was waiting when you say that! :)
What Holy Mushrooms and/or Magical Herbs use Neo-Shamans in your country?

I'm going to have to argue with that. An atheist does not believe in a higher, omniscienct power. Agnostics don't believe in organised religion, or one particular 'god'...but they DO believe that there is a 'higher power'.
Uh... I did say that, didn't I?

Atheism asserts that there is no god. However, it doesn't rule out other types of spiritual belief. Spiritual belief doesn't have a pre-requisite of any kind of concerete belief or waffling scepticism in god; it is something personal.

Well, we've basically just said the same thing.

I just worded my definition of atheism differently than yours.

You gave an elaborate definition of agnosticism; I gave the base of it as being scepticism (being unsure about the god above), which is, as the person is unsure of the existance thereof.

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to clarify that I believe there are no such things as ghosts, psychic phenomenon, telekinesis, out of body experiences, energy healing, past life, etc. They are all explanable as imaginings. Even stage performers (reputable ones) insist they are "illusions."
I do believe in these things, and not just as imaginings, but rather as phenomena we don't quite comprehend. There are most certainly human systems we have yet to discover and map out...just as the lymphatic system was once a puzzling mystery. There are energy systems within us that we may be able to better understand in a century or so...things that could explain many 'out of body experiences' for example. I for one, don't need to completely know everything about these things. I'm not necessarily going to take the meaning from them that other assign to them either. Yet clearly, there are experiences we humans are capable of having, that we are unable to scientifically explain. For me, there is little need to prove or disprove these experiences unless someone is trying to use them to further their own aims (ie, mental illness as possession rather than a treatable disease).

*snip* I have to say, the most spiritual experiences I have ever had have been with my people, with the elders and the singers and the dancers....and then, oddly enough, getting deep into physics. Wow. That's some deep shit.

I worship the divine every day. Every time I look at my kids and go, "Wow. I know how that happened, but seriously...how did that happen? They're amazing!" Every time I smell cut grass and go, "mmmm. that is the perfect scent." Every time I eat prime rib and go, "Is there anything more perfect than this taste?" I can understand all sorts of scientific explanations...but they only explain the how, not the why. For me, the why is not something I want to simplify with descriptions of Gods. I want to keep it in its inexplicable, sometimes glimpsed, often lost, amazing randomness.
A wonderful description of the spiritual. Thanks.

*snip* For me, there is little need to prove or disprove these experiences unless someone is trying to use them to further their own aims (ie, mental illness as possession rather than a treatable disease).
Oh, I agree entirely that there is no need to prove or disprove them, just as proving or disproving god is unnecessary. What people make of them is what is important.

A spiritual atheist is an agnostic.

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I agree.

From the site:

Atheism: Disbelief in the existence of a personal God as literal creator and ruler of the universe; and, according to the vast majority of feedback we have received from traditional Atheists, rejection of every possible understanding and presentation of God.

Spiritual Atheism: Disbelief in the existence of a personal God as literal creator and ruler of the universe; but, recognition of God as the physical, psychological, and spiritual personification of the eternal and infinite universe itself. Spiritual Atheism is the synthesis of Theism and Atheism and the bridge between Religion and Science!

To me, this 'spiritual atheism' is simply agnosticism. A personification of a higher power. It's agnosticism that isn't waffling...isn't one day yes, one day no, but rather...yeah, sort of. Which is how I find most atheists...not doubting that there is a God, just doubting there is ONE god.

The spiritual world isn't just "ghosts"; it's the spirits of the living and dead. They go there either during sleep or after death... anything is possible, amd those so-called out-of-body experiences? Is that not an experience in the spirtual world?
It isn't ghosts at all. What is 'spiritual' in us cannot leave us. Ever. It resides in, and is, our imagination, that powerful, much-maligned faculty of the mind. And when we die, it dies.

Imagination is a good thing, a wonderful thing, a marvelous thing --a powerful tool that has shaped our consciousness. When we look at children and new life, and marvel at the nature of life and love, that feeling comes from the 'heart'. That 'heart' is imagined, it is an abstract concept. When we look at the sky and the sea and the moon, and are amazed, that amazement comes from the 'heart' of the imagination.

Anything is possible in the imagination.

Spiritual Atheism: Disbelief in the existence of a personal God as literal creator and ruler of the universe; but, recognition of God as the physical, psychological, and spiritual personification of the eternal and infinite universe itself. Spiritual Atheism is the synthesis of Theism and Atheism and the bridge between Religion and Science!

To me, this 'spiritual atheism' is simply agnosticism. A personification of a higher power. It's agnosticism that isn't waffling...isn't one day yes, one day no, but rather...yeah, sort of. Which is how I find most atheists...not doubting that there is a God, just doubting there is ONE god.
I think you bolded the wrong bit. I fixed it. :)

Yes, they are not ambivalent, but the agnostic is uncertain about god. These are calling themselves atheists, which says that they decidedly do not believe in god. I haven't looked at the site indepth, but I suspect that they are creating a symbol of your "higher power" or whatever to relate to, and *recognizing* (they use that word a lot) that it is not god but a symbol. This allows for spiritual concepts without a "real" god. The Jew or Christian would recognize this as idolism.

It isn't ghosts at all. What is 'spiritual' in us cannot leave us. Ever. It resides in, and is, our imagination, that powerful, much-maligned faculty of the mind. And when we die, it dies.

What makes you so sure? I experienced things that denied ANY explanation. Did you?
Anything is possible in the imagination.
You think so, because you separate "reality" and "dream". I experienced things that simply deny what you say.
But ofcourse - your reality isn't less real than mine... I just prefere other design, other paradigm.

What makes you so sure? I experienced things that denied ANY explanation. Did you?

You think so, because you separate "reality" and "dream". I experienced things that simply deny what you say.
But ofcourse - your reality isn't less real than mine... I just prefere other design, other paradigm.
Stage magicians do things that defy explanation. Sufi magis do things that defy explanation. My mother does things that defy explanation. I'm thrilled if you have experienced things that defy explanation, but that doesn't change what I believe.

Stage magicians do things that defy explanation. Sufi magis do things that defy explanation. My mother does things that defy explanation. I'm thrilled if you have experienced things that defy explanation, but that doesn't change what I believe.
I thought that you are better than such low level of cynism. Is there any reason to continue this dispute? I just hate to "talk" with people that think that their own view of their reality is the only one possible. But I'll try even if I know it's worthless effort.
I talk about total collapse of THE REALITY. I talk about seeing future for your OWN eyes. Seeing REAL thing during OOBE. Having lucid dreams. Interacting with spirits that can be very friendly or very dangerous. I talk about completly other world view that is no better or no worse than SCIENTOLOGY. It's BEYOND your Mother's kitchen - and things that make so-called "magicians" or your Mother CAN BE EXPLAINED. Things I've experienced are denied to exist. THAT's what I'm talking about. But I know what do you feel and I know that you will smile with irony - I was exactly this same. You'll call it hallucinations, you'll call it illusions, imagination, insanity or childish world-view. But I tell you - this is more real than every-day life...

Exactly Arakaria! I'm glad someone here knows what I'm on about. It's not about changing your mind (at least for me), it's about gaining understanding. It's about powerful experiences, that actually changed my mind from agnostic to um... whatever I am. I don't subscribe to any religions. I don't really hold any absolutes about the nature of 'God' or even reality.

I'm a programmer so I am not a stranger to logic. Saying that what I have experienced is definitely imagination and nothing more feels like an insult to my intelligence, as if I decided to just be intellectually lazy and go with the easiest explanation. I've weighed the options (the ones I could think of) for my experiences. No, as Arakaria has, I too have seen the future EXACTLY as it would happen... sure the imagination is powerful, but to this degree? Maybe, I doubt it though. I've seen the luminous energy fields (auras?) of people. I've had psychic exchanges with friends and strangers that we verified verbally afterwards.

Sorry to start a discussion and run but I'm busy at work now plus I have a killer headache so I will go over this thread later and respond.

:)

I thought that you are better than such low level of cynism. Is there any reason to continue this dispute? I just hate to "talk" with people that think that their own view of their reality is the only one possible. But I'll try even if I know it's worthless effort.
I talk about total collapse of THE REALITY. I talk about seeing future for your OWN eyes. Seeing REAL thing during OOBE. Having lucid dreams. Interacting with spirits that can be very friendly or very dangerous. I talk about completly other world view that is no better or no worse than SCIENTOLOGY. It's BEYOND your Mother's kitchen - and things that make so-called "magicians" or your Mother CAN BE EXPLAINED. Things I've experienced are denied to exist. THAT's what I'm talking about. But I know what do you feel and I know that you will smile with irony - I was exactly this same. You'll call it hallucinations, you'll call it illusions, imagination, insanity or childish world-view. But I tell you - this is more real than every-day life...
My view is the only possible one. :) Now that we've gotten past that...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in any of those things, except lucid dreaming. There is nothing unusual at all about that. I am not deriding you. I'm sorry if other people have, and you put me in the same boots as they, but I'm not. I am not calling you a liar or anything. I am just saying that there are explanations, even if you don't know what they are.

Exactly Arakaria! I'm glad someone here knows what I'm on about. It's not about changing your mind (at least for me), it's about gaining understanding. It's about powerful experiences, that actually changed my mind from agnostic to um... whatever I am. I don't subscribe to any religions. I don't really hold any absolutes about the nature of 'God' or even reality.

I'm a programmer so I am not a stranger to logic. Saying that what I have experienced is definitely imagination and nothing more feels like an insult to my intelligence, as if I decided to just be intellectually lazy and go with the easiest explanation. I've weighed the options (the ones I could think of) for my experiences. No, as Arakaria has, I too have seen the future EXACTLY as it would happen... sure the imagination is powerful, but to this degree? Maybe, I doubt it though. I've seen the luminous energy fields (auras?) of people. I've had psychic exchanges with friends and strangers that we verified verbally afterwards.

Sorry to start a discussion and run but I'm busy at work now plus I have a killer headache so I will go over this thread later and respond.

:)
It sounds from your description earlier that your experience of god was very similiar to mine, though I would describe it as 'feeling' a message, rather than 'consciousness'. I too went from being an atheist to a believer in something greater, though it took much more than that simple experience. I call myself a theist, though most would call me atheist. These who call themselves spiritual atheist are not too distant from my own beliefs.

When I was young, I had a waking experience of what I described as "a memory of what was going to happen." It came to me as knowledge, exactly like a memory does, except just before the event, and it played out just the way I "remembered." But that is not "seeing the future." These things are explainable, and explained*, and not entirely uncommon.

These things are wonderful and wonderous, but that we don't have an explanation does not mean that one doesn't exist. And they have nothing to do with spirituality, in my opinion, in and of themselves; spirituality is how they mean something to the person experiencing them. Whether they are real or imagined doesn't matter, just what we do about them. Imagination is much-maligned, as I said earlier, and your own statements support that. I have a much... kinder understanding of what is going on when I believe in god.

To each their own.


*There was a very good explanation given on an episode of Stargate SG-1 by the scientist, Samatha Carter, but I forget it now. Perhaps it came about (story-wise) because of Amanda Tapping's participation in Proof Positive, as host of the show.

My view is the only possible one. :) Now that we've gotten past that...
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5