NationStates Jolt Archive

Egypt has been attacked today whats going on First the States then Spain now London and Egypt whos next?

80 people died 230 injured

Berlin or Paris probably

Berlin or Paris probably
Berlin..and Paris..they didnt help the US in the war i think the next attack will be in Warsaw poland

Who's next is a decent question, but I think it's time to ask ..

When are we all going to do something about it ?

Bluestrips2']Who's next is a decent question, but I think it's time to ask ..

When are we all going to do something about it ?

When we know what we have to do

what do you mean "do something about it"

Send a bomb that kills only talibans terrorists

I have a cunning plan let's build a smart bomb that flies around the world and asks everybody "Are you a terrorist?", if the answer is yes it goes BOOM if the answer is no it goes boom anyway, no more humanity no more squables, no more wars! It can't fail.:D

Egypt has been attacked today whats going on First the States then Spain now London and Egypt whos next?

80 people died 230 injured

You forgot Djerba and Bali... and most likely another few that I can't remember

what's the bet that the international media only makes half of the deal with what's happened in egypt compared to london?

Berlin..and Paris..they didnt help the US in the war i think the next attack will be in Warsaw poland

Have you ever BEEN to Warsaw?
The reason why there has been no attack there is simple: there aren't any mosques nor young Islamic males.

I just wish the Thought Police would WAKE UP, stop searching great grandmothers and toddlers and PROFILE the guys doing the bombings! If there EVER was a case FOR racial profiling, stopping innocent people from being blown up is it.

Berlin..and Paris..they didnt help the US in the war i think the next attack will be in Warsaw poland

Or maybe Rome... who else was in this "coalition of the willing"-thing? I thought it was something around 20 nations? Who were they? Liechtenstein? Honduras? Laos? Peru?

I just wish the Thought Police would WAKE UP, stop searching great grandmothers and toddlers and PROFILE the guys doing the bombings! If there EVER was a case FOR racial profiling, stopping innocent people from being blown up is it.

*lol When did Radical Islam become a race?

My guess is Melbourne or Sydney in Australia. We're pretty close allies with the US unfortunately.

what do you mean "do something about it"


Police the nation where these offenders come from ?

Bluestrips2']Who's next is a decent question, but I think it's time to ask ..

When are we all going to do something about it ?
I think "we" are doing something. I think the Brits are doing something. The Israelis are certainly doing something. The Spanish tried to do something, but lost their will.

Best thing to do is to keep fighting the terrorists where they live, not where we live. So far, so good.

Egypt has been attacked today whats going on First the States then Spain now London and Egypt whos next?

80 people died 230 injured

1. My heart goes out to the victims in Eqypt.

2. It takes a very narrow view of things to think this all started on 9/11. Many nations had been victims of terrorism for many decades before the attack on the US on 9/11. (In fact, many nations had been victims of Al Queda before 9/11.)

I think "we" are doing something. I think the Brits are doing something. The Israelis are certainly doing something. The Spanish tried to do something, but lost their will.

Best thing to do is to keep fighting the terrorists where they live, not where we live. So far, so good.

Your very narrow view of what counts as fighting terrorism is laughable. The war in Iraq is at most arguably one way to fight terrorism. If it is even one way, it is not the only way.

Nations like France have been fighting terrorism longer and with great impact.

This fight didn't start on 9/11 and it isn't simply a matter of doing whatever Dubya says.

Berlin or Paris probably
More likely it's going to be Italy. Italy's had troops in Iraq, unlike Germany and France, and Italy's become the gateway for illegal Arab and North African immigration into Europe. As a result they've got a sizable muslim population and some of those muslims crossed into Europe illegaly, perhaps because they're known terrorists and would otherwise be refused entry.

1. My heart goes out to the victims in Eqypt.

2. It takes a very narrow view of things to think this all started on 9/11. Many nations had been victims of terrorism for many decades before the attack on the US on 9/11. (In fact, many nations had been victims of Al Queda before 9/11.)
Even the USA was a victim of Al Quaeda terrorism before 9/11. Remember the first world trade center bombing? How about the attack on the USS Cole?

1. My heart goes out to the victims in Eqypt.



I second that.

Even the USA was a victim of Al Quaeda terrorism before 9/11. Remember the first world trade center bombing? How about the attack on the USS Cole?

Are you disputing my point or just quibbling with details?

This didn't start with "first the States."

Are you disputing my point or just quibbling with details?

This didn't start with "first the States."
Just adding some details.


BTW, are you always offended by my posts or is it just my imagination? That's the impression I'm getting.

I don't want to argue but im sure it was china that was attacked and iraq/iran etc..

You know the chemical attacks in the subway and stuff.

Bluestrips2']I don't want to argue but im sure it was china that was attacked and iraq/iran etc..

You know the chemical attacks in the subway and stuff.
I hadn't heard of any subway attacks with chemical weapons in China. Maybe you're thinking of Japan? Aum Shinrikio used sarin in the Tokyo subway once.

Have you ever BEEN to Warsaw?
The reason why there has been no attack there is simple: there aren't any mosques nor young Islamic males.

I just wish the Thought Police would WAKE UP, stop searching great grandmothers and toddlers and PROFILE the guys doing the bombings! If there EVER was a case FOR racial profiling, stopping innocent people from being blown up is it.

Yes I have 6 times there is a Polish Bank of The Country that was almost attacked by a French plane. I was born in Poland and there are scares that there are bombs under ground and in subways

Nations like France have been fighting terrorism longer and with great impact.


That caught my eye. What are you referring to? Surely not their anti-religious tolerance stuff in their public schools and things like that. How else are the French fighting terrorism at home (or elsewhere) more effectively than others?

i dont think the french are fighting terrorism at all personally. i think hey are sitting back and saying "lets get the rest of the world to do it" :sniper:

That caught my eye. What are you referring to? Surely not their anti-religious tolerance stuff in their public schools and things like that. How else are the French fighting terrorism at home (or elsewhere) more effectively than others?
I think that The Cat-Tribe referred in his post to the fact that the French had already experienced a series of terrorist bombings by the Algerian extremists in 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Islamist_terror_bombings_in_France) and brought it to a stop.

I hadn't heard of any subway attacks with chemical weapons in China. Maybe you're thinking of Japan? Aum Shinrikio used sarin in the Tokyo subway once.

Yeah I think so - I just remember something about it on the news ages ago.

Your very narrow view of what counts as fighting terrorism is laughable. The war in Iraq is at most arguably one way to fight terrorism. If it is even one way, it is not the only way.

Nations like France have been fighting terrorism longer and with great impact.

This fight didn't start on 9/11 and it isn't simply a matter of doing whatever Dubya says.
You're right. We should serve them all and hope they show up for the trial. That won't work so well with the suicidal types, but prosecuting the others might discourage them.

Either that, or we should just send more money to those poor Islamic nations so that they won't envy us anymore.

GWB had it right when he said those who weren't with us in the war on terror are part of the problem.

That caught my eye. What are you referring to? Surely not their anti-religious tolerance stuff in their public schools and things like that. How else are the French fighting terrorism at home (or elsewhere) more effectively than others?

i dont think the french are fighting terrorism at all personally. i think hey are sitting back and saying "lets get the rest of the world to do it" :sniper:

You should both learn to expand your world view a little.

Read and learn (for example):
Fighting Terrorism: Lessons from France (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,176139,00.html)
Help From France Key In Covert Operations (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/02/AR2005070201361_pf.html)
The French Experience of Counter-terrorism (http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/fellows/shapiro20030301.htm)
French sly partners in terrorism war (http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:2yhAME-8M3wJ:www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3250805+france+terrorism&hl=en)
French Push Limits in Fight On Terrorism (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17082-2004Nov1.html)

I hadn't heard of any subway attacks with chemical weapons in China. Maybe you're thinking of Japan? Aum Shinrikio used sarin in the Tokyo subway once.

China, nonetheless, has been a victim of many terrorist attacks -- including attacks by Al-Queda

http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=51#terrorism

You're right. We should serve them all and hope they show up for the trial. That won't work so well with the suicidal types, but prosecuting the others might discourage them.

Either that, or we should just send more money to those poor Islamic nations so that they won't envy us anymore.

GWB had it right when he said those who weren't with us in the war on terror are part of the problem.

Strawmen sure are fun. Burn, burn, you bastards!

Best thing to do is to keep fighting the terrorists where they live, not where we live. So far, so good.

Um... they do live where we live. Europe, America... there's no need to import Muslim fanatics, really. And no real need to go abroad in order to find and fight them, either.

I just wish the Thought Police would WAKE UP, stop searching great grandmothers and toddlers and PROFILE the guys doing the bombings! If there EVER was a case FOR racial profiling, stopping innocent people from being blown up is it.

Don't blame the police; blame the liberal left and ACLU. Common sense says if purple smirfs are the cause of the problem, you don't have to go after pink zellos. However, the left is so afraid someone is going to get their feelings hurt the police can't profile. I hate to tell the left this, but people are dying. True, profiling won't catch them all but it could help catch more of the terrorists.

Don't blame the police; blame the liberal left and ACLU. Common sense says if purple smirfs are the cause of the problem, you don't have to go after pink zellos. However, the left is so afraid someone is going to get their feelings hurt the police can't profile. I hate to tell the left this, but people are dying. True, profiling won't catch them all but it could help catch more of the terrorists.

The terrorists are mostly purple smurfs?

That should make counter-terrorism easier.

When you return to reality, we'll talk. But don't be surprised if words like "equal protection" and "Fourth Amendment" come up.

The terrorists are mostly purple smurfs?

That should make counter-terrorism easier.

When you return to reality, we'll talk. But don't be surprised if words like "equal protection" and "Fourth Amendment" come up.

Purple smirfs was just metaphor. I think we both know that a majority of terrorists are radical Muslims predominantly of Arab or East Asian decent.

Purple smirfs was just metaphor. I think we both know that a majority of terrorists are radical Muslims predominantly of Arab or East Asian decent.

And you don't think the terrorist organisations would be on to this before long?
They would simply start recruiting people that don't match that profile.

I've seen a documentary a few years back about Palestine terrorists and sucide bombers. It was said there that fifteen to ten years back, Hamas had to put an effort into finding young Palestinian adults who showed potential and enough zeal to carry out a mission like that, they had to indoctrinate them further and more or less brainwash them until they could carry out the attack. They used to be predomnantly males.
Today, they are overrun by children, teenagers and young adults who want to become terrorists or carry out a suicide attack, with an increasing number of females. They don't need to be brainwashed any more, they don't need further indoctrination, you just need to put them somewhere and light the fuse.

I somehow don't think Al-Quaeda will have any problems to find recruits that wouldn't fit any profile....

Just read that Polish people died in Egypt tourists what did they do to get that

And you don't think the terrorist organisations would be on to this before long?
They would simply start recruiting people that don't match that profile.

Yes, they probably would attempt to change the profile but that takes time and during that time our chances of stopping terrorists is increased because we don't spend valuable time strip searching "Granny." Lives can be saved.

When they change their profile, then we can change whom we profile. When they change their tactics, we change ours it happens all the time.

Egypt has been attacked today whats going on First the States then Spain now London and Egypt whos next?

80 people died 230 injured

I like what the President of Egypt said when asked if this was about Islam. He said it had nothing to do with Islam. That these terrorists aren't Islamic.

It holds strongly with my belief that these terrorists are part of a cult. There have been christian cults. Hindu cults. This is an Islamic cult. They should be treated like any other cult; As a bunch of wackos.

Bluestrips2']Police the nation where these offenders come from ?

The London bombers were all British. How exactly are you going to "Police" Britain.

Yes, they probably would attempt to change the profile but that takes time and during that time our chances of stopping terrorists is increased because we don't spend valuable time strip searching "Granny." Lives can be saved.

When they change their profile, then we can change whom we profile. When they change their tactics, we change ours it happens all the time.

That will take them no time at all, see my previous post. They have people of all ages, all social, ethnic and cultural background and of both sexes at their disposal.

The London bombers were all British. How exactly are you going to "Police" Britain.

Come on man.. read the paper past the front page..

They were still Islamic and they still looked of Arab, just cause they were born in London doesnt make that difficult to point someone out

Im wondering.. So what do all you people that just want spit out curses at the US and GWB propose to do?

Come on man.. read the paper past the front page..

They were still Islamic and they still looked of Arab, just cause they were born in London doesnt make that difficult to point someone out

Im wondering.. So what do all you people that just want spit out curses at the US and GWB propose to do?
I thought one was Jamaican and the others were Pakistani.

Come on man.. read the paper past the front page..

They were still Islamic and they still looked of Arab, just cause they were born in London doesnt make that difficult to point someone out

Im wondering.. So what do all you people that just want spit out curses at the US and GWB propose to do?

True, but does that make all British people who look Arabian terrorists? Should we start monitoring all of them, simply for how they look?

I thought one was Jamaican and the others were Pakistani.

Now don't go and point out the facts to anyone. Racial profiling won't work as it is impossible to profile a religion based on how someone looks. There are arabs who have blonde hair and blue eyes, How do you tell the difference between a southern Italian versus a north african versus a latin american? The average law enforcement officer has no clue. In fact immigration/customs officers- who see a variety every single day can't do it. Case in point: I have been spoken to in Arabic, Spanish,Greek,Italian and Portuguese because it was assumed that I was from one of those places. I'm not from any of those and my familial background isn't either.

Now don't go and point out the facts to anyone. Racial profiling won't work as it is impossible to profile a religion based on how someone looks. There are arabs who have blonde hair and blue eyes, How do you tell the difference between a southern Italian versus a north african versus a latin american? The average law enforcement officer has no clue. In fact immigration/customs officers- who see a variety every single day can't do it. Case in point: I have been spoken to in Arabic, Spanish,Greek,Italian and Portuguese because it was assumed that I was from one of those places. I'm not from any of those and my familial background isn't either.
So what are you? Israeli?

People need to get it out of their heads that they are just targeting coalition members, its any country that tries to support democracy, case in point would be Lebenon, you dont think its coincidence that they throw off the reigns of syrian oppression and want to join the westernized world again like they once were and have a democracy that now they are being randomly bombed again.

That is proof enough.

So what are you? Israeli?


Nope wrong part of the world- my nationality is irrelvant other than to point out no assumptions of nationality or ethinicity can be made solely on what a person looks like. Thus racial profliling won't work :cool:

Send a bomb that kills only talibans terrorists
The Taliban had terrorists? I didn't know that.

I like what the President of Egypt said when asked if this was about Islam. He said it had nothing to do with Islam. That these terrorists aren't Islamic.

It holds strongly with my belief that these terrorists are part of a cult. There have been christian cults. Hindu cults. This is an Islamic cult. They should be treated like any other cult; As a bunch of wackos.

To a certain extent, I am inclined to agree with you. However, I am not seeing the outrage from the Islamic community that I would expect from people whos religion was being used to kill inocent people. Let alone any action. If the Muslim community was so outraged, why have they done nothing to police their own people. You could argue that it wouldn't work. However, if they would at least try, I would feel a lot better about it. But instead of hearing "OMG, these wackos are hijacking our religion, let's stop them," all I hear is on empty suit/skirt/burka/turban saying how the Muslim community "condemns" these attacks. I don't buy it at all. How many more people need to die before we tell the Muslim community that enough is enough and start interning them, or at least start setting up Mosque Watcher programs. If they don't like it, they can start dealing with the terrorists that hide behind their "religion of peace." (BTW, of you look at history, you would see that Islam is anything but a religion of peace)

To a certain extent, I am inclined to agree with you. However, I am not seeing the outrage from the Islamic community that I would expect from people whos religion was being used to kill inocent people. Let alone any action. If the Muslim community was so outraged, why have they done nothing to police their own people. You could argue that it wouldn't work. However, if they would at least try, I would feel a lot better about it. But instead of hearing "OMG, these wackos are hijacking our religion, let's stop them," all I hear is on empty suit/skirt/burka/turban saying how the Muslim community "condemns" these attacks. I don't buy it at all. How many more people need to die before we tell the Muslim community that enough is enough and start interning them, or at least start setting up Mosque Watcher programs. If they don't like it, they can start dealing with the terrorists that hide behind their "religion of peace." (BTW, of you look at history, you would see that Islam is anything but a religion of peace)

Well, Islam is a relatively young religion. I think that only some of them are beginning to realize the idea of islamic cult wackos.

Hell, cults pop up everywhere. It's hard to even pay them much attention until they have a stand-off with the FBI, or mass-suicide to reach 'the mothership'.

These terrorist cults are so close in comparison to islamic fundamentalists, it's hard for even the muslim world to tell the difference.

It's as if the Amish had decided to start bombing subways and embassies.

To a certain extent, I am inclined to agree with you. However, I am not seeing the outrage from the Islamic community that I would expect from people whos religion was being used to kill inocent people. Let alone any action. If the Muslim community was so outraged, why have they done nothing to police their own people. You could argue that it wouldn't work. However, if they would at least try, I would feel a lot better about it. But instead of hearing "OMG, these wackos are hijacking our religion, let's stop them," all I hear is on empty suit/skirt/burka/turban saying how the Muslim community "condemns" these attacks. I don't buy it at all. How many more people need to die before we tell the Muslim community that enough is enough and start interning them, or at least start setting up Mosque Watcher programs. If they don't like it, they can start dealing with the terrorists that hide behind their "religion of peace." (BTW, of you look at history, you would see that Islam is anything but a religion of peace)

IMHO folks this is part of the backlash. People are starting to feel the frustration.

To a certain extent, I am inclined to agree with you. However, I am not seeing the outrage from the Islamic community that I would expect from people whos religion was being used to kill inocent people. Let alone any action. If the Muslim community was so outraged, why have they done nothing to police their own people. You could argue that it wouldn't work. However, if they would at least try, I would feel a lot better about it. But instead of hearing "OMG, these wackos are hijacking our religion, let's stop them," all I hear is on empty suit/skirt/burka/turban saying how the Muslim community "condemns" these attacks. I don't buy it at all. How many more people need to die before we tell the Muslim community that enough is enough and start interning them, or at least start setting up Mosque Watcher programs. If they don't like it, they can start dealing with the terrorists that hide behind their "religion of peace." (BTW, of you look at history, you would see that Islam is anything but a religion of peace)

The Muslim community doesn't see these people as "their own" any more than the Vatican would feel responsible for the Daviddians.
How should a Muslim community in, say, Berlin, go about intering their members because they seem to be getting extreme? They would be breaking German law if they did.

Terrorism is not about faith, it's about power. And in a secular society, power has to be controled by governmental institutions, not by religious congregations.

Well, Islam is a relatively young religion. I think that only some of them are beginning to realize the idea of islamic cult wackos.

Hell, cults pop up everywhere. It's hard to even pay them much attention until they have a stand-off with the FBI, or mass-suicide to reach 'the mothership'.

These terrorist cults are so close in comparison to islamic fundamentalists, it's hard for even the muslim world to tell the difference.

It's as if the Amish had decided to start bombing subways and embassies.

Young, yes. But still a good 14 centuries old.
Islamic sects are nothing new, for all I know the Islamic faith split for the first time soon after the prophet died. And there have been a number of VERY extreme sects in the Islamic world. Ever heard of Hassan Ibn Sabbah, the old man of the mountain? (http://www.philosophynow.org/archive/articles/00lewis.htm)

I have a cunning plan let's build a smart bomb that flies around the world and asks everybody "Are you a terrorist?", if the answer is yes it goes BOOM if the answer is no it goes boom anyway, no more humanity no more squables, no more wars! It can't fail.:D

YES! finally a person in his right mind! without humanity, the world would be a better place!

This seems to be an upscale part of Egypt, I don't think it would have been attacked if there weren't westerners there. Though that's unfortunate that so many innocent Egyptians got killed. Though really, why do these guys attack innocents anyway? Why don't they just attack government targets? Attacking civilians is evil, attacking the government is just resistance (or so according to the rules of acceptable terrorism)

Well, compare Christianity at 14 centuries (around the 1450's) old with the Islam of today to get an idea of how much more that religion has to mature. It took about 18 or 19 centuries for Christianity to rid itself of the majority of extremist elements, and it will likely take as much for Islam.

I'm impressed to see so many intolerant racists talking about racial profiling and islam being a major factor to the bombings. People are being killed by BOTH taliban and alliance bullets/rockets/bombs, d*mn you. One side is sort of moslem, just as much as the other is sort of right-wing christian. It's a bit naive to blaim religion in either case.
If your nation goes to war, you or someone else elected the wrong leaders (in the case your vote counts, which ironically isn't the case with neither US or Talibans and that's really sad).

Well, compare Christianity at 14 centuries (around the 1450's) old with the Islam of today to get an idea of how much more that religion has to mature. It took about 18 or 19 centuries for Christianity to rid itself of the majority of extremist elements, and it will likely take as much for Islam.

I've always advocated the idea that every culture, every religion and every society need to develop independently and choose its way itself, without dominance of another. The western Enlightenment did a lot for our own society, but it would be fundamentally wrong to present the Islamic world with ideas derived from our own culture and to accept them as truths. One radical attempt on this ended with the a violent revolution and a radical government today in Persia/Iran.

But when those cultures clash, people will die, on both sides. In fairness, I cannot provide the answer to this conflict.
It might be advisable for the West to act less intrusive, less jugemental and less commercially aggressive in the Arab world, but that's just a suggestion. I hope there's people out there with a clearer view of the situation and better and more informed ways of resolving it.

Well, compare Christianity at 14 centuries (around the 1450's) old with the Islam of today to get an idea of how much more that religion has to mature. It took about 18 or 19 centuries for Christianity to rid itself of the majority of extremist elements, and it will likely take as much for Islam.
Fortunately, the Crusaders didn't have nuclear weapons, poison gas, and bio-toxins to unleash on the world. The consequences are much more serious these days.

Lets just send all our planes, USA and England to Iraq, Iran and Pakistan and Afganny and bomb the mountains there until they are rubble, that will take care of the terrorist scum!

Telegram me if u agree!

Why do so many westerners hold the false opinions that (a) all terrorists are moslems, (b) all terrorists attack westerners, or even (c) most moslem terrorists attack mostly westerners. All three are untrue.

For example, take a look at how many times the following countries have been targets of terrorists:
Angola (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=6#terrorism)
Cambodia (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=43#terrorism)
China (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=51#terrorism)
India (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=113#terrorism)
Iran (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=116#terrorism)
Japan (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=123#terrorism)
Jordan (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=127#terrorism)
Kyrgyzstan (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=136#terrorism)
Nigeria (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=179#terrorism)
Pakistan (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=186#terrorism)
Phillipines (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=194#terrorism)
Saudi Arabia (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Countries&file=index&view=212#terrorism)

I dont give a damn whos dead or whos been attacked.

Still Need to bomb the mountains of iraq and such places, thats where bin laden is hiding.... pussyfooting around without a care in the world.... bin laden lives in luxery! not a care in the world!!!, If i were prime minister of england i would have caught him by now. Promise!

Also.

I dont care whos dead, whos going to die.

That cant be helped. Just bomb the mountains and what at how mant cockroaches (terrorists) come crawling out of the rubble!

*lol When did Radical Islam become a race?

When EVERY bomber of the West in the past 30 years has come from the Middle East. We need to be searching young Middle Easterners, not octogenarian Irish grandmothers...

When EVERY bomber of the West in the past 30 years has come from the Middle East. We need to be searching young Middle Easterners, not octogenarian Irish grandmothers...
Are you sure?
Maybe that grandmother is of the IRA, or of ETA, or of Baader-Meinhof...

I'm impressed to see so many intolerant racists talking about racial profiling and islam being a major factor to the bombings. People are being killed by BOTH taliban and alliance bullets/rockets/bombs, d*mn you.
One side is sort of moslem, just as much as the other is sort of right-wing christian. It's a bit naive to blaim religion in either case.
If your nation goes to war, you or someone else elected the wrong leaders (in the case your vote counts, which ironically isn't the case with neither US or Talibans and that's really sad).

Wow. You're new, so I'm not going to throw a ton of old posts at you, however:

1) Please tell me the nationalities of BOTH UK attacks this month, 9/11, Spain, etc... ALL of these have been by young Middle Eastern males. In this case, religion IS to blame, just like is was for the Crusades. And if you can't see that, go wash the Political Correctness film from your eyes.

2) If you look at the USS Cole, the US Embassy Bombings, the various plane hijackings (ie: Lockerbie), the Berlin Disco, the 1993 WTC attack, this has all been going on WAY before Iraq or Afghanistan.

Have you ever BEEN to Warsaw?
The reason why there has been no attack there is simple: there aren't any mosques nor young Islamic males.

I just wish the Thought Police would WAKE UP, stop searching great grandmothers and toddlers and PROFILE the guys doing the bombings! If there EVER was a case FOR racial profiling, stopping innocent people from being blown up is it.
I agree!

I think "we" are doing something. I think the Brits are doing something. The Israelis are certainly doing something. The Spanish tried to do something, but lost their will.

Best thing to do is to keep fighting the terrorists where they live, not where we live. So far, so good.
We're not really doing anything against terrorism. The Iraq war has not solved the problem because the majority of terrorists in Iraq are from other countries, so it's untrue to say that Iraq is where they live.

You're right. We should serve them all and hope they show up for the trial. That won't work so well with the suicidal types, but prosecuting the others might discourage them.

Either that, or we should just send more money to those poor Islamic nations so that they won't envy us anymore.

GWB had it right when he said those who weren't with us in the war on terror are part of the problem.
It's partisan hacks like you that are destroying the west. To pursue your hidden agenda you attack straw men and distract everyone from finding the real solution to the problem. Shame, shame on you.

In this case, religion IS to blame, just like is was for the Crusades.
Although to be fair, in my opinion Religion alone is never enough. There needs to be an overwhelming political and economic case as well.
Just like it was for the Crusades.

Are you sure?
Maybe that grandmother is of the IRA, or of ETA, or of Baader-Meinhof...

The IRA has given up violence, and has not bombed anyone since 1998. Yes, there are splinter groups, but they're not strong and do not have any real support.

As far as I know, the ETA has never bombed anyone outside of Spain, and has been pretty quiet since the war on terror began. Spain has done a great job dealing with them since 1998, when their assets began to be frozen and security was stepped up.

Baader-Meinhof? They haven't even claimed responsibility for anything since 1993, and have not been proved to be linked to anything since 1986... you might as well have brought up Sherman's Raiders from 1864 to cite why we need to search for middle-aged white railroad saboteurs. ;)

-snip-
You said 30 years....

Don't blame the police; blame the liberal left and ACLU. Common sense says if purple smirfs are the cause of the problem, you don't have to go after pink zellos. However, the left is so afraid someone is going to get their feelings hurt the police can't profile. I hate to tell the left this, but people are dying. True, profiling won't catch them all but it could help catch more of the terrorists.
I agree with the necessity of racial profiling, but you mistake the motives of the "left" (because we can all be tarred with the same brush, right?) It's not about avoiding hurting people's feelings. It's about living up to our principles.

I somehow don't think Al-Quaeda will have any problems to find recruits that wouldn't fit any profile....
Yet almost all of the suspects/perpetrators from all Al-Qaeda attacks so far have fitted the Middle Eastern racial demographic.

Next place to be attacked might be australia. I'm living here in japan. And i got the newspaper in english. And it had 5 dot points written from this guy who wrote a book. And he said 5 things about terrorism. He said not to travel to australia this summer. There will be a terrorist attack. Now australia thrives of tourism. And alot of it comes from japan. So that sorta hurt hearing that.

You said 30 years....

Alright, point taken. I meant it to mean of those still bombing people, but point taken.

I wonder why US isnt talking much about the Egypt Terror attack that killed around 83 people and when in Londons attack the media talked about it for days

I wonder why US isnt talking much about the Egypt Terror attack that killed around 83 people and when in Londons attack the media talked about it for days

I've seen a lot about it on C-Span and MSNBC... :confused:

When EVERY bomber of the West in the past 30 years has come from the Middle East. We need to be searching young Middle Easterners, not octogenarian Irish grandmothers...

LOL.

Ridiculous.

I can give scores of examples, but two will suffice.

Who attacked Oklahoma City?

Who bombed Centennial Park during the 1996 Olympics?

LOL.

Ridiculous.

I can give scores of examples, but two will suffice.

Who attacked Oklahoma City?

Who bombed Centennial Park during the 1996 Olympics?
Maybe not thirty years, but since September 11, 2001 they have been.

Maybe not thirty years, but since September 11, 2001 they have been.
Yeah? And just how do you know that? You some kind of terrorist sympathizer? Some kind of bomb-lover? The Department of Homeland Security would like a (prolonged), erm..."chat" with you, then.

Yeah? And just how do you know that? You some kind of terrorist sympathizer? Some kind of bomb-lover? The Department of Homeland Security would like a (prolonged), erm..."chat" with you, then.
My mistake, of course past performance doesn't predict the future. The AARP may well have a violent wing of retired Weathermen or SDS radicals that just haven't gotten into gear over Social Security reform.

Maybe not thirty years, but since September 11, 2001 they have been.
Richard Reid wasn't a young Middle Easterner. The so-called Beltway snipers weren't, too.

Wow. You're new, so I'm not going to throw a ton of old posts at you, however:

1) Please tell me the nationalities of BOTH UK attacks this month, 9/11, Spain, etc... ALL of these have been by young Middle Eastern males. all been going on WAY before Iraq or Afghanistan.

1st Uk Bombing three of the Men were English (nationality) of Pakistani origin (not Middle eastern) the 4th appears to be Jamaican (South of Florida and Cuba) therefore NOT Middle Eastern.

We don't know the nationalities of those involved in the 2nd attack as yet. If you however have insight then please contact the London Metropolitan Police

LOL.

Ridiculous.

I can give scores of examples, but two will suffice.

Who attacked Oklahoma City?

Who bombed Centennial Park during the 1996 Olympics?

Re: Oklahoma City: Point taken, as well with the Unibomber. I should have said "by foreign nationals". Mea culpa.

Re: Centennial Park: Eric Rudolph is basically another Unibomber.

Maybe not thirty years, but since September 11, 2001 they have been.

Meh. Perhaps if you count attacks within/around Isreal and "attacks" by insurgents in Iraq, then most attacks are by those of Middle Eastern descent. Definitely not all. (Of course, counting attacks within Iraq and Isreal rather stacks the deck.)

Here are listed terrorist attacks (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Attacks&file=index&limitVar=0) from just the last couple of months. Please identify those you know were committed by Islamic terrorists of Middle Eastern descent:

July 23, 2005: Sharm el-Sheik, Egypt
Car bomb

July 22, 2005: Sharm el-Sheik, Egypt
Car bomb by an unknown group

July 21, 2005: London, United Kingdom
Failed attack by an unknown group

July 20, 2005: Srinagar, Kashmir, India
Car bomb by Hizb ul Mujahedin

July 19, 2005: Znamenskoye, Chechnya, Russia
Ambush by Chechen Rebels

July 19, 2005: Mexico City, Mexico
Kidnapping

July 16, 2005: Izmir, Turkey
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

July 16, 2005: Musayyib, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

July 15, 2005: Los Angeles, California, United States
Failed attack by an unknown group

July 15, 2005: Jadriyah District, Baghdad, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

July 15, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Al Qaeda in the Land of the Two Rivers

July 14, 2005: Yala province, Thailand
Assault General by an unknown group

July 14, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Suicide bomber by Al Qaeda in the Land of the Two Rivers

July 13, 2005: Brescia, Italy
Failed attack by an unknown group

July 12, 2005: Amorebieta, Spain
Incendiary bomb small by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

July 12, 2005: Netanya, Israel
Suicide bomber

July 12, 2005: Mtulumamba, South Kivu, Congo
Assault General by Forces Democratiques de Liberation du Rwanda (FDLR)

July 12, 2005: Shavei Shomron, West Bank, Israel
Car bomb by Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)

July 12, 2005: Netanya, Israel
Suicide bomber by Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)

July 12, 2005: Warsaw, Poland
Hoax by an unknown group

July 12, 2005: Tunceli province, Turkey
Kidnapping by Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)

July 12, 2005: Naqash neighborhood, Beirut, Lebanon
Car bomb

July 10, 2005: Cesme, Turkey
Incendiary bomb small by Kurdistan Freedom Falcons

July 10, 2005: Iraq
Car bomb

July 7, 2005: London, United Kingdom
Suicide bomber by an unknown group

July 5, 2005: Ayodyha, India
Failed attack by an unknown group

July 5, 2005: Srebrenica, Bosnia-Herzegovina
Failed attack by an unknown group

July 5, 2005: Burgaloi, Chechnya, Russia
Ambush by Chechen Rebels

July 3, 2005: Genc, Bingol province, Turkey
Baited trap by Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)

July 3, 2005: Beirut, Lebanon
Car bomb by an unknown group

July 2, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Suicide bomber by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

July 2, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Unknown by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

July 1, 2005: Ankara, Turkey
Failed attack by Revolutionary People’s Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C)

July 1, 2005: Makhachkala, Russia
Incendiary bomb small by Jamaat Shariat

June 29, 2005: Srinagar, Kashmir, India
Grenade by an unknown group

June 29, 2005: Mount Dov region, Israel
Mortar by Hizballah (Party of God)

June 27, 2005: littoral Somalia
Hijacking by an unknown group

June 26, 2005: Mosul, Iraq
Suicide bomber by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 26, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Mortar by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 26, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Assassination by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 26, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Improvised Explosive Device (IED) by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 26, 2005: Puerto Asis, Colombia
Assault General by Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)

June 25, 2005: Madrid, Spain
Car bomb by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

June 25, 2005: Dagestan, Russia
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

June 24, 2005: Beit Hagai, Hebron, Israel
Handgun by Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade

June 23, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Incendiary bomb small by Ansar al Sunna

June 23, 2005: Melbourne, Australia
Failed attack by an unknown group

June 23, 2005: Fallujah, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Al Qaeda in the Land of the Two Rivers

June 23, 2005: Lamno, Aceh, Indonesia
Sniper Rifle by an unknown group

June 22, 2005: Bijbehara, Kashmir, India
Assault Rifle (AK-47) by an unknown group

June 22, 2005: Narathiwat, Thailand
Beheading by an unknown group

June 22, 2005: Kirkuk, Iraq
Failed attack by an unknown group

June 22, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Handgun by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 22, 2005: Paudiamrai, Nepal
Kidnapping by Maoists

June 21, 2005: Wata Musaitbi neighborhood, Beirut, Lebanon
Assassination

June 21, 2005: Gebze, Kocaeli, Turkey
Incendiary bomb small by Kurdistan Freedom Falcons

June 20, 2005: Diktel, Nepal
Aerial bomb by Maoists

June 20, 2005: Arbil, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 20, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Baited trap by Al Qaeda in the Land of the Two Rivers

June 20, 2005: Baka a-Sharkiya, West Bank, Israel
Sniper Rifle by Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)

June 20, 2005: Erez Crossing, Gaza, Israel
Failed attack by Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade

June 19, 2005: Philidelphi route, Gaza Strip, Israel
Rocket propelled grenade by Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ)

June 19, 2005: Poonch, Kashmir, India
Assault General by an unknown group

June 19, 2005: Laghman Province, Afghanistan
Failed attack by an unknown group

June 18, 2005: Wagna bei Leibnitz, Austria
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

June 17, 2005: Lagos, Nigeria
Threat by an unknown group

June 17, 2005: Habaniyah, Iraq
Car bomb by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 16, 2005: Siem Reap, Cambodia
Hostage taking by an unknown group

June 16, 2005: Ramadi, Iraq
Incendiary bomb small by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 15, 2005: Baquba, Iraq
Suicide bomber by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 15, 2005: Warri, Nigeria
Hostage taking by Iduwini National Movement for Peace and Development

June 13, 2005: Pulwama, Kashmir, India
Car bomb by an unknown group

June 13, 2005: Narathiwat, Thailand
Command Initiated Devices by an unknown group

June 13, 2005: Katmandu, Nepal
Assault General by Maoists

June 13, 2005: Kandahar, Afghanistan
Suicide bomber by Taliban

June 13, 2005: Baghdad, Samarra, and Tikrit, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 12, 2005: South-western Iranian city of Ahwaz
Unknown by an unknown group

June 12, 2005: Uzunovo, Russia
Time Initiated Devices by Chechen Rebels

June 12, 2005: Tehran, Iran
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

June 12, 2005: Ahvaz, Iran
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

June 12, 2005: "Jamestown" oil platform, off the coast of Warri, Nigeria
Hostage taking by an unknown group

June 11, 2005: Narke, Nepal
Incendiary bomb small by Maoists

June 11, 2005: Bombay, India
Assault General by an unknown group

June 10, 2005: Kurchaloi, Russia
Grenade by Chechen Rebels

June 10, 2005: Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan
Assassination by an unknown group

June 10, 2005: Zaragoza, Spain
Grenade by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

June 10, 2005: Paktika Province, Afghanistan
Ambush by an unknown group

June 10, 2005: Haqlaniya, Iraq
Incendiary bomb small by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 9, 2005: Canberra, Australia
Hoax by an unknown group

June 9, 2005: M’sila region, Algeria
Incendiary bomb small by Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

June 8, 2005: Shkin (near Paktika province), Afghanistan
Mortar by Taliban

June 8, 2005: Pamulang, South Jakarta, Indonesia
Incendiary bomb small

June 8, 2005: Baquba, Iraq
Car bomb by an unknown group

June 8, 2005: Guayaquil, Ecuador
Incendiary bomb small by Group of People’s Combatant (GCP)

June 8, 2005: Algiers and Larba, Algeria
Handgun by Armed Islamic Group (GIA)

June 8, 2005: Addis Ababa, Ethiopia
Civil disorder

June 7, 2005: Coleraine, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
Failed attack

June 7, 2005: Madi village, Chitwan, Nepal.
Mines, Anti-vehicle by Maoists

June 6, 2005: Badarmude, Nepal
Mines, Anti-vehicle by Maoists

June 5, 2005: Limgheiti, Mauritania
Assault General by Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

June 4, 2005: Cicekli, Turkey
Assault General by Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)

June 3, 2005: Athens, Greece
Failed attack by an unknown group

June 3, 2005: Orgun-E, Afghanistan
Improvised Explosive Device (IED) by Taliban

June 2, 2005: Baquba, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 2, 2005: Kirkuk, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 2, 2005: Toz Khurmatu, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 2, 2005: Balad, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 2, 2005: Ashrafiyeh neighborhood of Beirut, Lebanon
Car bomb

June 2, 2005: Dushanbe, Tajikistan
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

June 1, 2005: Iraq
Chemical (Sarin, etc.) by an unknown group

June 1, 2005: Baghdad, Iraq
Suicide vehicle by Insurgents, terrorists, militants in Iraq

June 1, 2005: Uzbekistan
Civil disorder

June 1, 2005: Canberra, Australia
Biological (Anthrax, etc.)

June 1, 2005: Batman province, Turkey
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

June 1, 2005: Kandahar, Afghanistan
Suicide bomber by Al Qaida

May 30, 2005: Karachi, Pakistan
Civil disorder by Tehreek e Jaferia Pakistan (TJP)

May 29, 2005: Springfield, Virginia, United States
Edge weapon by Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13)

May 28, 2005: Christian Town, Tentena, Indonesia
Incendiary bomb small by Jemaah Islamiya (JI)

May 27, 2005: Islamabad, Pakistan
Suicide bomber

May 25, 2005: San Blas district, Madrid, Spain
Car bomb by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

My earlier links should have put and end to the idea that this is a war on terror between the Western nations and the Middle East. If not, the above should be the last nail.

...

June 12, 2005: Uzunovo, Russia
Time Initiated Devices by Chechen Rebels

...
I'd like to clarify this--it was an attempt to derail a train. At first it was thought to be an act by the Chechen rebels, but two Russian white supremacists were arrested on suspicion of blowing the rails not long ago.

Re: Oklahoma City: Point taken, as well with the Unibomber. I should have said "by foreign nationals". Mea culpa.

Re: Centennial Park: Eric Rudolph is basically another Unibomber.

In addition to my list above:

May 23, 2005: Pagadian City, Zamboanga del Sur, Philippines
Hostage taking by New People’s Army (NPA)

May 20, 2005: Pokhara, Nepal
Package bomb by Maoists

May 19, 2005: Calabarzon, Philippines
Failed attack by New People’s Army (NPA)

May 15, 2005: Spain-the towns of Beasain, Bergara, Elgoibar, and Soraluze in the Basque region
Incendiary bomb small by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

May 15, 2005: Cumbitara, Colombia
Animal attack by Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)

May 13, 2005: Andijan, Uzbekistan
Civil disorder by an unknown group

May 11, 2005: Athens, Greece
Civil disorder by an unknown group

May 11, 2005: Tunceli, Turkey
Assault General by Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)

May 6, 2005: Grozny, Chechnya, Russia
Failed attack by Chechen Rebels

May 5, 2005: New York City, New York, United States
Grenade by an unknown group

May 5, 2005: Koch Goma, Uganda
Assault General by Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA)

April 29, 2005: Nalchik, Kabardino-Balkariya region, Russia
Assault General by Yarmuk

April 22, 2005: Saint Benoit, France
Handgun by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

April 18, 2005: Dyshne-Vedeno, Chechnya, Russia
Assault General by Chechen Rebels

April 17, 2005: Somani, Nepal
Assault General by Maoists

April 15, 2005: Pervari, Turkey
Assault General by Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)

April 15, 2005: Cucuta, Norte de Santander state, Colombia
Kidnapping by Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)

April 14, 2005: Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
Failed attack by an unknown group

April 13, 2005: Belfast, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

April 13, 2005: Relizane, Algeria
Ambush by Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)

April 6, 2005: Tame, Arauca state, Colombia
Ambush by Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)

March 19, 2005: Naseerabad, Pakistan
Suicide bomber by Baluchistan Liberation Army (BLA)

March 14, 2005: Taguig, Manila, Philippines
Hostage taking by Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)

March 14, 2005: Malacca Strait, between Malaysia and Indonesia
Hijacking by Free Aceh Movement

March 11, 2005: Guwahati, Assam, India
Grenade by United Liberation Front of Assam

March 1, 2005: Vempenta, southern state of Andhra Pradesh, Kurnool District, India
Assault General by People's War Group (PWG)

I can go on and on and on.

Can we stop with the hasty generalizations of who are the perpetrators and who are the victims of terrorism. It is a worldwide problem.

Have you ever BEEN to Warsaw?
The reason why there has been no attack there is simple: there aren't any mosques nor young Islamic males.

I just wish the Thought Police would WAKE UP, stop searching great grandmothers and toddlers and PROFILE the guys doing the bombings! If there EVER was a case FOR racial profiling, stopping innocent people from being blown up is it.

that's not good enough for the Left... these terrorists deserve trials.

and to get out on bond leading up to the trial.

THERE ARE three types of people in the world:

Dicks, pussies, and assholes...

Don't blame the police; blame the liberal left and ACLU. Common sense says if purple smirfs are the cause of the problem, you don't have to go after pink zellos. However, the left is so afraid someone is going to get their feelings hurt the police can't profile. I hate to tell the left this, but people are dying. True, profiling won't catch them all but it could help catch more of the terrorists.There is no such thing as liberal left in Egypt. Racial profiling would be of no use in a country like Egypt.
As for the united states... blaming the liberal left for not implementing racial profiling is retarded. The liberal left is not in majority in the house of representatives, or the senate, nor is there a liberal left in the whitehouse.
If Bush hasn't done it yet don't blame the liberal left.

Alright, point taken. I meant it to mean of those still bombing people, but point taken.The ETA is still at it today.

In addition to my list above:

<Snip!>
* Here is BOTH of your lists, stripped of unknown groups & attacks not on the West.
** I've deleted the Unknowns, as they don't prove anything one way or another.

July 19, 2005: Znamenskoye, Chechnya, Russia
Ambush by Chechen Rebels

July 12, 2005: Amorebieta, Spain
Incendiary bomb small by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

July 5, 2005: Burgaloi, Chechnya, Russia
Ambush by Chechen Rebels

July 1, 2005: Makhachkala, Russia
Incendiary bomb small by Jamaat Shariat

June 25, 2005: Madrid, Spain
Car bomb by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

June 25, 2005: Dagestan, Russia
Incendiary bomb small by an unknown group

June 12, 2005: Uzunovo, Russia
Time Initiated Devices by Chechen Rebels

June 10, 2005: Kurchaloi, Russia
Grenade by Chechen Rebels

June 10, 2005: Zaragoza, Spain
Grenade by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

May 25, 2005: San Blas district, Madrid, Spain
Car bomb by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

May 15, 2005: Spain-the towns of Beasain, Bergara, Elgoibar, and Soraluze in the Basque region
Incendiary bomb small by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

May 6, 2005: Grozny, Chechnya, Russia
Failed attack by Chechen Rebels

April 29, 2005: Nalchik, Kabardino-Balkariya region, Russia
Assault General by Yarmuk

April 22, 2005: Saint Benoit, France
Handgun by Basque Fatherland and Liberty (ETA)

April 18, 2005: Dyshne-Vedeno, Chechnya, Russia
Assault General by Chechen Rebels

...ALL of thesea attacks are by two groups that are fighting "Civil Wars" for their own nationhood. They're not blowing away people in foreign nations. Even these are NOT examples of international terrorism. (The ETA's "nation" would be made up of both Spanish & French lands. The Kurds, (again, out of scope), would make up a country from Iraq, Turkey and Syria, perhaps also Iran.

VS: attacks on the US by Islamic extremists:
• 1983 April 18 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63
• 1983 September 23 Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, killing all 117 people on board
• 1983 October 23 Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut kills 241 U.S. Marines. 58 French troops from the multinational force are also killed in a separate attack.
• 1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacking
• 1985 October 7 - October 10 Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.
• 1985 EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.
• 1986 TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; 4 Americans, including an infant, are killed.
• 1986 April 6 the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill dictator Qaddafi.
• 1986 Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan.
• 1988 Pan Am Flight 103 bombing (Lockerbie). The worst act of terrorism against the United States prior to September 11, 2001.
• 1989 Avianca Flight 203 bombed over Colombia
• 1993 February 26 World Trade Center bombing kills 6 and injures over 1000 people
• 1993 Failed New York City landmark bomb plot
• 1993 Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters. Two died.
• 1994 December 11 A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines Flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman. Authorities found out that Ramzi Yousef planted the bomb to test it for his planned terrorist attack.
• 1995 Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop computer in a Manila, Philippines apartment by authorities after an apartment fire occurred in the apartment.
• 1995 Bombing of military compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
• 1996 June 25 Khobar Towers bombing
• 1997 A terrorist opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".
• 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.
• 1999 Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States-Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
• 1999 Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US and Israeli tourists in Jordan and pick up 28 suspects as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
• 2000 The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks
• 2000 October 12 USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors
• 2001 September 11, 2001 attacks kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.
• 2001 Paris embassy attack plot foiled
• 2001 Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb
• 2002 Singapore embassies attack plot foiled
• 2002 June 14 attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi
• 2002 Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl
• 2002 October 12 Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202
• 2003 Riyadh Compound Bombings - bombings of United States expat housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160. Al-Qaeda blamed
• 2003 Casablanca Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were "Western and Jewish". Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group
• 2003 Canal Hotel Bombing in Baghdad, Iraq kills 22 people including the top UN representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello
• 2003-2004 In response to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi insurgency in that country stage dozens of suicide bombings, kidnappings and several beheadings targeting Iraqi, Coalition and humanitarian targets. Attacks on some coalition forces may not be terrorist attacks under Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions which gives lawful combatant status to non-uniformed guerrillas resisting foreign occupation if they display arms openly. As neither the US or Iraq have signed this protocol it is not applicable to attacks on US forces.
• 2003 October 15 - A bomb is detonated by Palestinians against a US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip killing three Americans
• 2004 May 29 Al-Khobar massacres--Islamic terrorists kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
• 2004 December 6 Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.

...PLUS the attacks by Islamic extremists in Italy, Spain, the UK, France, etc. And, actually, most Chechens are Sunni Muslim!

March 1, 2005: Vempenta, southern state of Andhra Pradesh, Kurnool District, India
Assault General by People's War Group (PWG)
Not that it matters since it's out of scope, but I call shenanigans on this one. They officially ceased to exist in September 2004 when they merged http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India_%28Maoist%29 .

I can go on and on and on.

Can we stop with the hasty generalizations of who are the perpetrators and who are the victims of terrorism. It is a worldwide problem.

Please don't. You're spouting answers to a question of your own making.
If you want to reply to debate, please re-read and reconsider the posts:

When EVERY bomber of the West in the past 30 years has come from the Middle East. We need to be searching young Middle Easterners, not octogenarian Irish grandmothers...
and
Re: Oklahoma City: Point taken, as well with the Unibomber. I should have said "by foreign nationals". Mea culpa.

I assumed a legal scholar such as yourself would understand that I'm not talking about bloody NEPAL when I said "the west". My point was concerning international terrorist attacks on the West. It's a worldwide problem with RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS.

I stand by my assessment that since we know what the enemy looks like, we should actually... LOOK for him! :D

The ETA is still at it today.

Yes, in Spain & France. They're not international terrorists. Although they do use some terrorist tactics, they are fighting for their own nation and confine their acts to the (two) countries they consider their oppressors. Same as with the Unibomber: it's home-grown terrorism.

Yes, in Spain & France. They're not international terrorists. Although they do use some terrorist tactics, they are fighting for their own nation and confine their acts to the (two) countries they consider their oppressors. Same as with the Unibomber: it's home-grown terrorism.It's terrorism period.

<Snip!>
* Here is BOTH of your lists, stripped of unknown groups & attacks not on the West.
** I've deleted the Unknowns, as they don't prove anything one way or another.

...ALL of thesea attacks are by two groups that are fighting "Civil Wars" for their own nationhood. They're not blowing away people in foreign nations. Even these are NOT examples of international terrorism. (The ETA's "nation" would be made up of both Spanish & French lands. The Kurds, (again, out of scope), would make up a country from Iraq, Turkey and Syria, perhaps also Iran.

Please don't. You're spouting answers to a question of your own making.
If you want to reply to debate, please re-read and reconsider the posts:

and

I assumed a legal scholar such as yourself would understand that I'm not talking about bloody NEPAL when I said "the west". My point was concerning international terrorist attacks on the West. It's a worldwide problem with RADICAL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS.

So, although Egypt was part of the "west" earlier in this thread, we wish to continue to move the goalposts around.

Now the only thing that counts is "international" terrorists acting outside of their own country or country that they wish to have and that are attacking Americans or Europeans? (Apparently attacks in a foreign country don't count if you consider them still part of a civil war.)

Have I got that right?

Now that I have the new rules -- I'll look some more. Note: my list was for just the last few months. You had to stretch back over 20 years.

I stand by my assessment that since we know what the enemy looks like, we should actually... LOOK for him! :D

Except you don't know what an islamic terrorist necessarily looks like. Particularly as they know better than to look like a stereotypical middleastern moslem. And they can be women, too.

:rolleyes: :headbang:

Not that it matters since it's out of scope, but I call shenanigans on this one. They officially ceased to exist in September 2004 when they merged http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India_%28Maoist%29 .

Feel free to make special rules about what counts as terrorism and what does not. Just be clear you aren't even pretending to fight a war on terrorism -- just a war on some terrorists that bug us.

And I'll take The Terrorism Research Center over Wikipedia on this one.
http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Attacks&file=index&limitVar=280
http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=TGroups&file=index&alpha=P

Yes, in Spain & France. They're not international terrorists. Although they do use some terrorist tactics, they are fighting for their own nation and confine their acts to the (two) countries they consider their oppressors. Same as with the Unibomber: it's home-grown terrorism.

Care to explain why "international" terrorism is big, bad, and scary, but we can brush-off "home-grown" terrorism?

Isn't terrorism simply terrorism?

Yes, they probably would attempt to change the profile but that takes time and during that time our chances of stopping terrorists is increased because we don't spend valuable time strip searching "Granny." Lives can be saved.

When they change their profile, then we can change whom we profile. When they change their tactics, we change ours it happens all the time.

Hmmm... I wonder if we did a profile of the most prolific terrorists in the US what they would look like. Well, obviously, the most profile one lately would be 9/11, but certainly Oklahoma city ranks up there. Then we have the incidents of children terrorizing entire schools. Abortion clinic bombings. Did I miss anything? Who do you think the most common perpetrators are in these incidents? You're right it's not generally "Granny" but it sure ain't Muslims either.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm
One source reported in late 1996, that there has been "over $13 million in damage caused by violent anti-abortion groups since 1982 in over 150 arson attacks, bombings, and shootings." (Also 554 Anthrax hoaxes.)

The guys that are most dangerous on our own turf (the US) look much like me. Maybe they should be searching me more.

Cat, TG.

*snip*

Looking at your list, I discover:
1. Almost nothing on US soil
2. Many that did not target the US. Does it count as against the US merely because 1 or more American's die?
3. Many that I cannot fathom why it counts as "international" rather than "home-grown" terrorism
4. You appear to equate any attack related to the Middle East with one by "Islamic extremists"
5. You've lumped together dozens of different terrorist groups under the the all-encompasing "Islamic extremist" label. Many are secular/political, many are enemies, and many are from different parts of the world. (So much for profiling.
6. Many of these aren't even on the State Department's list of terrorist incidents.

• 1983 April 18 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63
• 1983 October 23 Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut kills 241 U.S. Marines. 58 French troops from the multinational force are also killed in a separate attack.

In Lebanon. Why not civil war instead of "international"?

Who responsible?

• 1983 September 23 Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, killing all 117 people on board

A Middle Eastern airline blown up by a middle eastern group trying to pressure Saudi Arabia. Unrelated to the West. Also not motivated by Islam.

• 1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacking

Not even remotely an attack on the US.

Not clear that it involved Islamic extremists.

• 1985 October 7 - October 10 Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.

Home-grown. And the fact that one American was killed (and not because he was American) does not make it an attack on the US.

Not carried out by Islamic extremists.

• 1985 EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.

Not an attack on the US.

Not carried out by Islamic extremists

• 1986 TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; 4 Americans, including an infant, are killed.

Not carried out by Islamic extremists

• 1986 April 6 the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill dictator Qaddafi.

Only vaguely related to the US.

Not carried out by Islamic extremists

• 1986 Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan.

Not carried out by Islamic extremists

• 1988 Pan Am Flight 103 bombing (Lockerbie). The worst act of terrorism against the United States prior to September 11, 2001.

Involved Libya and Abu Nidal. Not carried out by Islamic extremists

• 1989 Avianca Flight 203 bombed over Colombia

Columbian airline blown up by the Medellin Drug Cartel. Nothing to do with the US or Moslems.

• 1993 February 26 World Trade Center bombing kills 6 and injures over 1000 people

Yep. Bad.

• 1993 Failed New York City landmark bomb plot

Failed plots count?

• 1993 Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency
headquarters. Two died.

1 idiot shoots a few people. How is this international terrorism?

• 1994 December 11 A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines Flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman. Authorities found out that Ramzi Yousef planted the bomb to test it for his planned terrorist attack.

Al-Queada attack on the Phillipines. Not the US.

• 1995 Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop computer in a Manila, Philippines apartment by authorities after an apartment fire occurred in the apartment.

This isn't even an attack. It is merely plans for one found in the Phillipines.

• 1995 Bombing of military compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

Perpetrators unknown, right? Could be "home-grown"

• 1996 June 25 Khobar Towers bombing

Perpetrators unknown, right? Could be "home-grown"

• 1997 A terrorist opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".

Fine. Although relatively minor and not necessarily an Islamic extremist.

• 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.

Yep. Although by whom and why open to question.

• 1999 Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States-Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots

Foiled. But, yep.

• 1999 Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US and Israeli tourists in Jordan and pick up 28 suspects as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots

• 2000 The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks

You count this foiled plot twice. Home-grown?

• 2000 October 12 USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors

Yep.

• 2001 September 11, 2001 attacks kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.

Yep.

• 2001 Paris embassy attack plot foiled

Foiled, but yep. By who and why?

• 2001 Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb

British citizen born in London. So much for profiling. More of an idiot than anything else.

• 2002 Singapore embassies attack plot foiled

??

• 2002 June 14 attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi

??

• 2002 Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl

Captured and killed in Pakistan by Pakistanis against the war in Afghanistan. How is this international?

• 2002 October 12 Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202

This counts as an attack on the US. By whom?

• 2003 Riyadh Compound Bombings - bombings of United States expat housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160. Al-Qaeda blamed

??

• 2003 Casablanca Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were "Western and Jewish". Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group

Against US? By your own description home-grown!

• 2003 Canal Hotel Bombing in Baghdad, Iraq kills 22 people including the top UN representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello

Home-grown!

How against US?

• 2003-2004 In response to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi insurgency in that country stage dozens of suicide bombings, kidnappings and several beheadings targeting Iraqi, Coalition and humanitarian targets. Attacks on some coalition forces may not be terrorist attacks under Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions which gives lawful combatant status to non-uniformed guerrillas resisting foreign occupation if they display arms openly. As neither the US or Iraq have signed this protocol it is not applicable to attacks on US forces.

These obviously count as Civil War. Who says the US and Iraq have not signed the Geneva Conventions? Where did you copy this from?

• 2003 October 15 - A bomb is detonated by Palestinians against a US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip killing three Americans

"Home-grown"

• 2004 May 29 Al-Khobar massacres--Islamic terrorists kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.

Home-grown?
How anti-US?

• 2004 December 6 Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.

??

It's terrorism period.

Yep. Never said it wasn't. But you replied to me. And that wasn't what I was speaking to. :D

Care to explain why "international" terrorism is big, bad, and scary, but we can brush-off "home-grown" terrorism?

Isn't terrorism simply terrorism?

All terrorism is bad. No question about it.

However, the US, Spain, UK, Italy, France et al have been clamping down on domestic terrorism for YEARS. Though negotiation, seizing assets, arrests, etc... the IRA has renounced violence, the ETA has been mostly hamstrung, and there haven't been many "home grown" US terrorist activities other than the unfortunate Anthrax incident.
Yes, you can point to the Fundamentalist Christians shooting an abortion doctor, or ELF torching SUVs, but these are not quite the same level of evil as Sept 11, March 11 or July 7.

International terrorism isn't "big bad and scary", nor should we brush off the home grown flavor. However, the International kind is worse in two respects:
1) It's pointedly being done to change our way of life and in the hope to disrupt the world's forward progress in human rights, technology, finance, etc.

2) It's being funded by a specific religious flavor -- in this case, extremist Islam. I'd be just as fine fighting extremist Catholicism, Judiasm, Hussitism, Shintoism or whatever... but none of them are blowing up innocent people.

So, although Egypt was part of the "west" earlier in this thread, we wish to continue to move the goalposts around.

:confused: Where? (Really... I don't know what you're referring to.)

Now the only thing that counts is "international" terrorists acting outside of their own country or country that they wish to have and that are attacking Americans or Europeans? (Apparently attacks in a foreign country don't count if you consider them still part of a civil war.)

Have I got that right?

Pretty much. My contention was the West. Most everyone I can think of thinks of the West to be (the old, pre 1990) NATO countries.

If the ETA started striking other countries (say, Italy or Belgium), then I'd call it international terrorism. At this point, it's national terrorism.

Now that I have the new rules -- I'll look some more. Note: my list was for just the last few months. You had to stretch back over 20 years.

Fair enough. I've been posting that list on the forums for months. (I like to re-use my research... I only have so much time I can do this.)

Except you don't know what an islamic terrorist necessarily looks like. Particularly as they know better than to look like a stereotypical middleastern moslem. And they can be women, too.

:rolleyes: :headbang:

Yep. If any had bombed anything so far. But to date, (as far as I know!) it's been purely young, Middle Eastern men (unless you can offer me some enlightenment??). And, yes I know this:
* Not female.
* Not over 40.
* Not white, latino, asian or native american.
-- That's a lot of saved search time.

Feel free to make special rules about what counts as terrorism and what does not. Just be clear you aren't even pretending to fight a war on terrorism -- just a war on some terrorists that bug us.

And I'll take The Terrorism Research Center over Wikipedia on this one.
http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Attacks&file=index&limitVar=280
http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=TGroups&file=index&alpha=P

Are you inferring that India is suddenly a part of the US or France? :D
Really: You're replying to my posts. If you want to move it into a wider debate, I readily concede your points. However, as a rebuttal to my posts, it's not applicable.

BTW: Yep. But you have to start somewhere. I like the idea of starting with the people that killed three thousand of my countrymen, including several that I knew through work.

Apologies if some of these has been posted and discussed before.

Whenever an Islamist terrorist attack takes place, we (meaning I and some of my friends) start a countdown and take bets on how long before the inevitable Paki connection to the attack comes out.

well here it is,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4713723.stm
There have also been reports that Egyptian police have linked six missing Pakistanis with the attacks - though the authorities would not confirm this.

Arabic television stations said police distributed photographs of two of six Pakistanis who had disappeared from a hotel in Cairo earlier this month.

It appears however, that Pakistanis were being sought even before the bomb attacks, and the Egyptian interior ministry has not confirmed that there is a connection between them and the Sharm al-Sheikh bombings.

Security sources said police had surrounded two Bedouin villages near Sharm al-Sheikh - Ruweisat and Khurum - where they believed two of the Pakistani men may be hiding.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf denied there was an al-Qaeda network in his country capable of orchestrating attacks in Egypt, London or elsewhere.

"I am saying very clearly that al-Qaeda does not exist in Pakistan anymore," Mr Musharraf said on Monday.

Musharraf has said AQ does not exist. I don't understand why the Americans and British are whining about a non-existent AQ. :p

Ah, but BBC is paki leaning and would not be forthright as other media outlets.


http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/25/uegypt3.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/07/25/ixportaltop.html
Arab satellite channels said police were searching for up to nine Pakistanis who had been staying in hotels in Sharm el-Sheikh but disappeared after the bombings, leaving their passports at reception.

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=246335&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/
Egyptian police exchanged fire with gunmen on Monday as they hunted for six Pakistanis suspected of involvement in deadly bombings in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8671549/
Police hunt 5 Pakistanis over Egypt attack
Officials think men may have had direct role in resort blasts that killed 88

SHARM EL-SHEIK, Egypt - Police said Monday they were searching for five Pakistani men in their widening investigation into Egypt's deadliest terror attack, which killed scores of people, including an American, at this Red Sea resort.

Police at checkpoints around this resort also were circulating photographs of five Pakistanis who apparently were among a group of nine Pakistanis who arrived in Sharm el-Sheik from Cairo on July 5, according to two investigators who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the probe's sensitivity.

If any involvement of Pakistanis is confirmed, it would suggest that those behind Saturday's bombings belong to a much wider terror network than previously believed.

Tubelights !

See the timings of the attacks.

Ayodhya - failed attempt to destroy the temple and trigger mass communal riots between hindus and muslims

two days later

London bombings

Trinidad bombing - given a miss in the media !

London again

Egypt bombing

ALL have Paki connection, meaning either the bombers were ethnic paki immigrants or paki citizens or trained in pakistan.

If all this is not a planned and coordinated attack, I dunno what is.

...
However, the International kind is worse in two respects:
1) It's pointedly being done to change our way of life and in the hope to disrupt the world's forward progress in human rights, technology, finance, etc.

2) It's being funded by a specific religious flavor -- in this case, extremist Islam. I'd be just as fine fighting extremist Catholicism, Judiasm, Hussitism, Shintoism or whatever... but none of them are blowing up innocent people.
An act of international terrorism may as well be directed at a non-Western target. Terrorism may be fuelled by a specific interpretation of some religion, but this condition is not some sine qua non making terrorism 'international'.

....


Pretty much. My contention was the West. Most everyone I can think of thinks of the West to be (the old, pre 1990) NATO countries.

If the ETA started striking other countries (say, Italy or Belgium), then I'd call it international terrorism. At this point, it's national terrorism.

...
If so, then our Chechen terrorists are 'international' ones who managed even to attack the West... remember the hijacking of a Turkish ferry in 1996?

An act of international terrorism may as well be directed at a non-Western target. Terrorism may be fuelled by a specific interpretation of some religion, but this condition is not some sine qua non making terrorism 'international'.

No arguement! But the point of whole thing is about if we should use racial profiling when searching bags or people going onto mass transit in the West.

If so, then our Chechen terrorists are 'international' ones who managed even to attack the West... remember the hijacking of a Turkish ferry in 1996?

Actually, no I don't, but I'll take your word for it.

Looking at your list, I discover:
1. Almost nothing on US soil

I think you'll find that consulates, embassies and military bases are considered to be the territory of the country they are registered to. It's called "extraterritorial status". It also applies to nationally owned ships (such as the USS Cole.)
http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/E/extrater.html

It also applies to aircraft, though I haven't found an American link.
http://www.legislation.gov.hk/blis_ind.nsf/0/48e5d1a0285d01cec82564830033c630?OpenDocument


2. Many that did not target the US. Does it count as against the US merely because 1 or more American's die?

If it's at US consulates, embassies and military bases, or ships, it's targeting the US.

Yes. Do you not consider a hostage taken to still be a citizen? How about a fighter pilot shot down behind enemy lines?
If the citizen has not broken any local laws, he or she IS an American. And, therefore, a targeted American if hurt/captured/killed.

3. Many that I cannot fathom why it counts as "international" rather than "home-grown" terrorism

I'll go through those...

4. You appear to equate any attack related to the Middle East with one by "Islamic extremists"

Are you inferring that any of these attacks were viable under International Law as combat? If not, then they're terrorism.

Likewise, since ALL of them have ties to a radical islamic group, they are extremists!

5. You've lumped together dozens of different terrorist groups under the the all-encompasing "Islamic extremist" label. Many are secular/political, many are enemies, and many are from different parts of the world. (So much for profiling.

Dude. The fact that they are enemies or not doesn't change what they look like. As for different parts of the world: WHERE?? ALL of these attacks were by Middle Easterners! Surely that's no coincidence?!?

6. Many of these aren't even on the State Department's list of terrorist incidents.

And I'm bound to that why?

On with the show...
(I'll "zap" the okay'd ones.)


Quote:
• 1983 April 18 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63
• 1983 October 23 Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut kills 241 U.S. Marines. 58 French troops from the multinational force are also killed in a separate attack.
In Lebanon. Why not civil war instead of "international"?
Who responsible?

Points 1 & 2. Not only was it US territory, it was US servicemen that were killed.
Responsible/why not Civil war: Hezbollah, backed by IRAN.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/


Quote:
• 1983 September 23 Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, killing all 117 people on board
A Middle Eastern airline blown up by a middle eastern group trying to pressure Saudi Arabia. Unrelated to the West. Also not motivated by Islam.

The middle eastern group you refer to was led by Abu Bidal. Abu Nidal WAS an Islamic extremist. Perhaps the prototype. His organization was dedicated to terrorism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_-_the_Revolutionary_Council

I'm sure I recall that Americans were onboard the plane, but I can't find a link.


Quote:
• 1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacking
Not even remotely an attack on the US.
Not clear that it involved Islamic extremists.

American plane. Deliberately picked out, beat and killed a US Navy serviceman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stethem

Not clear?!? It was Hezbollah!! How Islamic and extremist can you get?!? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah


Quote:
• 1985 October 7 - October 10 Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.
Home-grown. And the fact that one American was killed (and not because he was American) does not make it an attack on the US.
Not carried out by Islamic extremists.

No, they killed him for being a Jewish American. :rolleyes: The man was in a wheelchair!!


Quote:
• 1985 EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.
Not an attack on the US.
Not carried out by Islamic extremists

Two Americans were shot in the head, meant to die. (not clear if they did)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_648

Incorrect. Abu Nidal WAS an Islamic extremist. Perhaps the prototype. His organization was dedicated to terrorism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_-_the_Revolutionary_Council



Quote:
• 1986 TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; 4 Americans, including an infant, are killed.
Not carried out by Islamic extremists

The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine *was and is* an Islamic extremist organization, especially after joining the PLO. Both the US and EU recognize it and it's offshoots as terrorist organizations.


Quote:
• 1986 April 6 the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill dictator Qaddafi.
Only vaguely related to the US.
Not carried out by Islamic extremists

It certainly was NOT an attack on West Germany. Don't you recall the TV footage of this??

No, but certainly carried out by Islamics. Scores for pro-profiling.


Quote:
• 1986 Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan
Not carried out by Islamic extremists

Incorrect. Abu Nidal WAS an Islamic extremist. Perhaps the prototype. His organization was dedicated to terrorism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_-_the_Revolutionary_Council


Quote:
• 1988 Pan Am Flight 103 bombing (Lockerbie). The worst act of terrorism against the United States prior to September 11, 2001.
Involved Libya and Abu Nidal. Not carried out by Islamic extremists

Incorrect. Abu Nidal WAS an Islamic extremist. Perhaps the prototype. His organization was dedicated to terrorism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_-_the_Revolutionary_Council


Quote:
• 1989 Avianca Flight 203 bombed over Colombia
Columbian airline blown up by the Medellin Drug Cartel. Nothing to do with the US or Moslems.

Point. I should have edited out this one.


Quote:
• 1993 Failed New York City landmark bomb plot
Failed plots count?

Mea culpa again. I should have edited this one out.


Quote:
• 1993 Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency
headquarters. Two died.
1 idiot shoots a few people. How is this international terrorism?

Given he fled and was captured in Pakistan, had entered the US illegally and never denied he did it... yep.
Also counts for a reason to profile during the hostilities.


Quote:
• 1994 December 11 A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines Flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman. Authorities found out that Ramzi Yousef planted the bomb to test it for his planned terrorist attack.
Al-Queada attack on the Phillipines. Not the US.

Ramzi Yousef was using it as a test run for an assault on 11 US airlines in 1995. Fortunately, he was arrested.


Quote:
• 1995 Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop computer in a Manila, Philippines apartment by authorities after an apartment fire occurred in the apartment.
This isn't even an attack. It is merely plans for one found in the Phillipines.

True, not an attack, but a plan for an attack on the US. Shouldn't be on this list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bojinka


Quote:
• 1995 Bombing of military compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
Perpetrators unknown, right? Could be "home-grown"

5 Americans killed. The Islamic Movement for Change took responsibilty.
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9511/saudi_blast/11am/


Quote:
• 1996 June 25 Khobar Towers bombing
Perpetrators unknown, right? Could be "home-grown"

This eight story building mostly housed United States Air Force personnel from the 4404th Fighter Wing. In all, 19 U.S. servicemen and one Saudi were killed and 372 wounded.

How can you argue an attack on US servicemen isn't an attack on a US target??


Quote:
• 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.
Yep. Although by whom and why open to question.

(I would have erased this one, but it WAS acknowledged as an Al-qaeda attack!)


Quote:
• 1999 Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US and Israeli tourists in Jordan and pick up 28 suspects as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
• 2000 The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks
You count this foiled plot twice. Home-grown?

:confused: Where? Those are two seperate events...


Quote:
• 2001 Paris embassy attack plot foiled
Foiled, but yep. By who and why?

Best bet is Al-Qaeda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_embassy_attack_plot


Quote:
• 2001 Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb
British citizen born in London. So much for profiling. More of an idiot than anything else.

A Muslim, British citizen of Middle Eastern decent. Could have been profiled and not risked innocent lives.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/31/reid.transcript/


Quote:
• 2002 Singapore embassies attack plot foiled
??
The US embassy in Singapore is US territory.


Quote:
• 2002 June 14 attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi
??

The US Consulate is US territory.


Quote:
• 2002 Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl
Captured and killed in Pakistan by Pakistanis against the war in Afghanistan. How is this international?

The man was an American. Had he been a member of the Pakistani media, then it'd be national.


Quote:
• 2002 October 12 Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202
This counts as an attack on the US. By whom?

Jemaah Islamiyah a militant Islamic separatist movement is the best bet. It is also suspected of carrying out the Zamboanga bombings, the Metro Manila bombings, and the 2004 Jakarta embassy bombing.


Quote:
• 2003 Casablanca Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were "Western and Jewish". Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group
Against US? By your own description home-grown!

It is believed Ansar al-Islam leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi ordered the bombings in retribution for the invasion of Iraq.


Quote:
• 2003 Canal Hotel Bombing in Baghdad, Iraq kills 22 people including the top UN representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello
Home-grown!
How against US?

Attack on the UN, included 3 Americans. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi took responsibility. His top bombmaker, Abu Omar al-Kurdi, confirmed this when arrested early this year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_Hotel_Bombing


Quote:
• 2003-2004 In response to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi insurgency in that country stage dozens of suicide bombings, kidnappings and several beheadings targeting Iraqi, Coalition and humanitarian targets.
Attacks on some coalition forces may not be terrorist attacks under Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions which gives lawful combatant status to non-uniformed guerrillas resisting foreign occupation if they display arms openly. As neither the US or Iraq have signed this protocol it is not applicable to attacks on US forces.

These obviously count as Civil War. Who says the US and Iraq have not signed the Geneva Conventions? Where did you copy this from?

It's NOT Civil war if those doing the hostage taking and suicide bombings are foreign nationals.

Indeed, the US & Iraq did NOT sign Protocol One. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_I


Quote:
• 2003 October 15 - A bomb is detonated by Palestinians against a US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip killing three Americans
"Home-grown"

International terrorism. Home grown would be bombing the Israelis, not the US.


Quote:
• 2004 May 29 Al-Khobar massacres--Islamic terrorists kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
Home-grown?
How anti-US?

Abdel Aziz al-Muqrin, an Al-Quada leader in Saudi Arabia took responsibility.
One American killed (along with other nationalities).


Quote:
• 2004 December 6 Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.
??

The US Consulate is US territory.

*snip*

By some of these tenuous connections 9/11 was an atttack on Germany.

By some of these tenuous connections 9/11 was an atttack on Germany.

Yep. Which is why NATO scrambled jets to patrol the US coast. It's why we're happy to have our German allies with us in Afghanistan.

Yep. Which is why NATO scrambled jets to patrol the US coast. It's why we're happy to have our German allies with us in Afghanistan.

Ok, then it was also an attack on over twenty-five countries including some muslim countries. Face it, you're really stretching to make every terrorist activity that happened to include an American to be an attack on the US. It's simply not that.

But, hey, if that's how it works then they've declared war on Muslims since there were Muslim victims as well.

No arguement! But the point of whole thing is about if we should use racial profiling when searching bags or people going onto mass transit in the West.
...
Racial (more to the point, ethnic) profiling has been implemented in Russia, especially in Moscow. On the whole it doesn't work, except as an useful tool for policemen who like to extort money from the 'black-arsed' immigrants.

Ok, then it was also an attack on over twenty-five countries including some muslim countries. Face it, you're really stretching to make every terrorist activity that happened to include an American to be an attack on the US. It's simply not that.

But, hey, if that's how it works then they've declared war on Muslims since there were Muslim victims as well.

What Muslim countries? Name one. And Turkey is a secular Republic..

It's worse. It's an attack on Occidental culture, financial systems and progress. I can't say I'm in favor of anybody that would ban women's rights, make me grow a beard and face Mecca to pray, and take kites away from children. I also have no desire to turn the technological clock back to about 1300 AD.

The Islamic Extremists have been at war with the US for 30 years, mostly due to our support of Israel.

Have you ever BEEN to Warsaw?
The reason why there has been no attack there is simple: there aren't any mosques nor young Islamic males.

I just wish the Thought Police would WAKE UP, stop searching great grandmothers and toddlers and PROFILE the guys doing the bombings! If there EVER was a case FOR racial profiling, stopping innocent people from being blown up is it.


....Wow. thats sad there isn't any Islams in Poland they are regular people and the reason is the Poland might get attacked is because they are helping the Americans in the war

Oh yeah and in London 50 people died and the Americans on tv are talking about it forever and in Egypt 83 people died and there is almost no word about it... thats funny.

....Wow. thats sad there isn't any Islams in Poland they are regular people and the reason is the Poland might get attacked is because they are helping the Americans in the war

Why is it sad? Are there any Moravians where you live? How about Coptic Catholics? Hmong? :rolleyes:

Reason is one thing. Opportunity is another. Poland simply does NOT have radical clerics in mosques the way the US, UK, & France have... thus there is less of a chance of there being any radical Islamist terrorist cells in Warsaw.

Then why was Egypt attacked only because of the tourists?

And I wonder why Bush didn't warn the states about the terrorist attacks on America on 9 11?

What Muslim countries? Name one. And Turkey is a secular Republic..

It's worse. It's an attack on Occidental culture, financial systems and progress. I can't say I'm in favor of anybody that would ban women's rights, make me grow a beard and face Mecca to pray, and take kites away from children. I also have no desire to turn the technological clock back to about 1300 AD.

The Islamic Extremists have been at war with the US for 30 years, mostly due to our support of Israel.

Hmmmm... Pakistan - 7 people died, all muslim. There were muslims from other countries including the US. Good to see you educated yourself on this stuff before you started spouting off /sarcasm

Hmmmm... Pakistan - 7 people died, all muslim. There were muslims from other countries including the US. Good to see you educated yourself on this stuff before you started spouting off /sarcasm

Last time I checked, Pakistan is NOT in NATO, nor is bound by any defense treaty with the US wherein it is obliged to consider an attack on the US as an attack on itself.

As for the "good..." : please try to keep up and stay in context. :p
(See? Jibes like that don't do any good...)

[QUOTE=Markreich]

A Muslim, British citizen of Middle Eastern decent. Could have been profiled and not risked innocent lives.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/31/reid.transcript/


Richard Reid is of jamaican/english descent not middle eastern. What you seemingly fail to realise is that being from the Middle East means one can look white, black or olive skinned- so there is no way to accurately profile someone based on their apparent race. Oh and don't forget the chechens- mostly caucasian!

Last time I checked, Pakistan is NOT in NATO, nor is bound by any defense treaty with the US wherein it is obliged to consider an attack on the US as an attack on itself.

As for the "good..." : please try to keep up and stay in context. :p
(See? Jibes like that don't do any good...)

Some of the attacks you mentioned were not on NATO countries, there just happened to be a couple of US citizens involved and you said they count as an attack on the US. By that FAULTY logic, then the attack on the WTC was an attack on Pakistan. I was keeping up. It seems you're having trouble following your own logic, no?

Please give it a rest you two.

Egypt was attacked most likely because of the American push to democratic reforms in Egypt following the Condi Rice speech recently there.

Recall that Ayman Al Zawahiri was the chief of the Muslim Brotherhood group which came close to gaining power before it was taken over by Mubarak.

http://www.rediff.com/news/aug/04rajee1.htm

Suicide Bomber Identified in Egypt Attack

The bomber who was identified carried out the devastating truck bomb attack on the Ghazala Gardens Hotel. DNA tests identified him as Youssef Badran, an Egyptian Sinai resident with ties to Islamic militants, the officials said on condition of anonymity because the release of the details had not been authorized.

A body believed to be that of a foreign bomber was found in the pickup truck at the Ghazala, while the remains of another suspected bomber were discovered at the Old Market. DNA tests are being run on the bodies, a security official said on condition of anonymity because the release of such details had not been authorized.

Me VERY VERY interested in knowing which country that foreign bomber came from. If anybody comes across any news regarding that please post here.

Three groups claimed responsibility for the attacks. One of the groups warned in an Internet statement Monday of a ``total war'' unless ``Jews and Christians leave our country within 60 days.'' The statement was signed by the Holy Warriors of Egypt.


The usual. Nothing new.

A conflicting claim was issued Saturday by an al-Qaida-linked group, the Abdullah Azzam Brigades, which also claimed responsibility for the October bombings. None of the statements' authenticity could be confirmed.

A third claim was posted Tuesday on the Internet in the name of a previously unknown militant group purporting links to al-Qaida. The statement said the group, called Egyptian Tawhid and Jihad, attacked the ``Crusaders'' in Sharm on orders from al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden and his Egyptian-born deputy Ayman al-Zawahri ``in support of our brothers in Iraq and Afghanistan.''

Nothing new here too.

Off topic:

Recent evidences indicate that the Oklahoma bombings by Timothy McVeigh has an islamist connection too.

FWIW http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP310A.html

Returning to the matter of Khalid's new public role as 9/11 mastermind, his connection with Ramzi Yousef would also serve another purpose - linking Iraq to al-Qaida by way of Timothy McVeigh and the 1995 bombing of the FBI building in Oklahoma. The McVeigh-Iraqi thread, in fact, pre-dates the events of September 11 by a few years. In 1998, Timothy McVeigh's lawyer, Stephen Jones, had broached the existence of a videotaped interview with the co-founder of the Abu Sayyaf terrorist group, a purported al-Qaida front based out of the Philippines. The Abu Sayyaf leader, Edwin Angeles, had turned police informant in February 1995 (a couple months before the Oklahoma bombing), becoming, in the words of Richard Parry of The Independent, "a deep penetration agent of the Marines and the Philippine National Police." According to Jones, Angeles had informed the Philippine police that he had attended a series of meetings in the early '90's with Ramzi Yousef and an American who Jones was able to identify as Terry Nichols, the convicted accomplice of Timothy McVeigh. Nichols, married at the time to a Philippine woman, had made a series of trips to the Philippines - without his wife - visiting the very areas where Abu Sayyaf predominated. As Jones argued, it was Nichols who was the operative brains behind the Oklahoma bombing, and his client - a Gulf War veteran and former Burns security guard - was taking the fall as a patsy under the influence of Terry Nichols.

IIRC, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed also confirmed that he and Ramzi Yusef taught Nichols how to make the bomb.

Richard Clarke also says in "Against All Enemies," that "We do know that Nichols' bombs did not work before his Philippine stay, and were deadly when he returned."

Yep, you can chalk that one up for Islamists.

The Islamic Extremists have been at war with the US for 30 years, mostly due to our support of Israel.The Palestinians despite their tactics and violence, terrorism and dishonesty... they do have reason to be pissed.

Some of the attacks you mentioned were not on NATO countries, there just happened to be a couple of US citizens involved and you said they count as an attack on the US. By that FAULTY logic, then the attack on the WTC was an attack on Pakistan. I was keeping up. It seems you're having trouble following your own logic, no?

Awfully belligerent in tone, aren't you?

Look below to #107 and 110. You state that 9/11 was an attack on Germany. I agree, since Germany and the US are bound to defend each other as both are NATO members and an attack on one is an attack on all.

Then, in post #116, YOU make the jump between the dead at the WTC, ignoring the NATO point and INFERRING the discussion between myself and Cat Tribe.

And, if you'll note, I responded to Cat's points regarding my examples.

If you want to debate, fine. But keep it civil, and quote what you're referring to.

______________________________________________________________
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9318502&postcount=107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jocabia
By some of these tenuous connections 9/11 was an atttack on Germany.
Posted by Markreich
Yep. Which is why NATO scrambled jets to patrol the US coast. It's why we're happy to have our German allies with us in Afghanistan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jocabia
Ok, then it was also an attack on over twenty-five countries including some muslim countries. Face it, you're really stretching to make every terrorist activity that happened to include an American to be an attack on the US. It's simply not that.

But, hey, if that's how it works then they've declared war on Muslims since there were Muslim victims as well.


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9320296&postcount=110
Posted by Markreich
What Muslim countries? Name one. And Turkey is a secular Republic..

It's worse. It's an attack on Occidental culture, financial systems and progress. I can't say I'm in favor of anybody that would ban women's rights, make me grow a beard and face Mecca to pray, and take kites away from children. I also have no desire to turn the technological clock back to about 1300 AD.

The Islamic Extremists have been at war with the US for 30 years, mostly due to our support of Israel.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9321589&postcount=116
Originally Posted by Jocabia
Hmmmm... Pakistan - 7 people died, all muslim. There were muslims from other countries including the US. Good to see you educated yourself on this stuff before you started spouting off /sarcasm

The Palestinians despite their tactics and violence, terrorism and dishonesty... they do have reason to be pissed.

Ayep. So do most nationalities on the face of the Earth. :(

Awfully belligerent in tone, aren't you?

I just call them like I see them.

This started with a post that was immediately referring to a LONG post by you with tons of examples of faulty reasoning. Rather than quote the whole thing I snipped and wrote that I thought the connection was faulty. My connection never included anything about NATO (and I searched the entire thread and don't see where NATO was ever mentioned until you suddenly brought it up regarding Germany so I don't see how you could have thought I was referring to that treaty). I can't help it if you assumed it was. If you were unsure rather than make assumptions you can just ask. It's quite effective.

Cat said this among other things was not an attack on the US.

1985 EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.
Not an attack on the US.
Not carried out by Islamic extremists

The rather tenuous connection you used to call it an attack on the US was -
Two Americans were shot in the head, meant to die. (not clear if they did)

This and other similar examples that suggested that any attack involving Americans is an attack on the US inspired me to reply that by that kind of reasoning WTC was an attack on Germany.

You said it was and mentioned NATO, so I brought other non-NATO countries that could be included, like Pakistan, since they had seven die in the WTC. What's difficult to understand about that? Or if this was all about NATO then perhaps I missed how an Egyptian plane that was hijacked and taken to Malta has anything to do with NATO?

The fact is to say any attack that just happens to involve Americans who are in the wrong place at the wrong time, while tragic, cannot be considered an attack on the US. Clear enough for you?

I just call them like I see them.

Fine. Just keep in mind that being beligerent doesn't help anyone to take you seriously.

This started with a post that was immediately referring to a LONG post by you with tons of examples of faulty reasoning. Rather than quote the whole thing I snipped and wrote that I thought the connection was faulty.

With absolutely no explaination as to why you thought so, or which part(s).

My connection never included anything about NATO (and I searched the entire thread and don't see where NATO was ever mentioned until you suddenly brought it up regarding Germany so I don't see how you could have thought I was referring to that treaty). I can't help it if you assumed it was. If you were unsure rather than make assumptions you can just ask. It's quite effective.

Cat said this among other things was not an attack on the US.

...and I countered, explaining why it was.

The rather tenuous connection you used to call it an attack on the US was -

This and other similar examples that suggested that any attack involving Americans is an attack on the US inspired me to reply that by that kind of reasoning WTC was an attack on Germany.

"EgyptAir Flight 648 was a Boeing 737 aircraft on a flight from Athens to Cairo, carrying 96 people. On November 23, 1985, three men of the Abu Nidal terrorist group hijacked the aircraft over the Mediterranean. An Egyptian sky marshal shot one of the hijackers, setting off a gunfight that depressurized the aircraft and forced it to land in Luqa, Malta.

On the ground in Malta, the hijackers demanded fuel. When they did not get it, they shot two American and three Israeli passengers in the back of the head, three of whom miraculously survived."

...so: You're saying that the terrorists single out the 2 Americans and 3 Israelis on the plane for shooting, and they're NOT targeting America and Israel? :rolleyes: What on Earth do you THINK?!? Why didn't they shoot the OTHER nationalities?
No, the initial hijack was not against the US. But it BECAME ONE ONCE THEY SHOT AN AMERICAN.

You said it was and mentioned NATO, so I brought other non-NATO countries that could be included, like Pakistan, since they had seven die in the WTC.

The WTC *was* an attack on Germany.
They are in NATO, and an attack on one NATO member is an attack on another. PAKISTAN is not in NATO. They have no treaty obligation regarding mutual defense.
Were Pakistanis killed at the WTC? Yes. Are they also our ally? Yes. But they do NOT count the WTC as something which they MUST act upon vis-a-vis the common defense treaty.

What's difficult to understand about that? Or if this was all about NATO then perhaps I missed how an Egyptian plane that was hijacked and taken to Malta has anything to do with NATO?

The Egyptian Plane became an attack on the US once Americans were shot.

NATO still has to DECLARE the common defense treaty clause to be "in play". Since it's inception, 9-11 was the first (and only) time it's been used. Similarly, IRA bombings on the UK or ETA bombings on Spain or France aren't attacks on the US, since the NATO clause wasn't activated.

See the difference?
9-11: Attack on all NATO nations.
Flight 648: Hijack an attack on Egypt, expanded into an attack on the US & Israel.

The fact is to say any attack that just happens to involve Americans who are in the wrong place at the wrong time, while tragic, cannot be considered an attack on the US. Clear enough for you?

And I'm in disagreement with you about that. And I would *hope* that you would agree that an attack on a US embassy, consulate, military base or ship is an attack on the US.

[QUOTE=Markreich]

A Muslim, British citizen of Middle Eastern decent. Could have been profiled and not risked innocent lives.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/01/31/reid.transcript/

Richard Reid is of jamaican/english descent not middle eastern. What you seemingly fail to realise is that being from the Middle East means one can look white, black or olive skinned- so there is no way to accurately profile someone based on their apparent race. Oh and don't forget the chechens- mostly caucasian!

There is no way to accurately profile someone based on their apparent race?
Are you kidding me?

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/LAW/01/31/reid.transcript/story.reid.sentence.sketch.jpg

Call me crazy, but I'd search this guy and skip the grandmothers and the Swedish family of 5.
Political correctness and security don't mix. If Slovak tourists suddenly started a crime wave in Brazil and started stealing Speedos off the beaches, I'd HOPE that the Brazillian police would look for us and not search the population randomly.

Consider:
* You can't search everyone. It's too time consuming, etc.
* You have a group (radical Islamists) that are hijacking and bombing planes and mass transit WAY beyond any other group.
* Instead of wasting time and recourses on politically correct "random" searches, let's FOCUS whom we're searching!

Ever do a crossword puzzle? When putting down the words, most people tend to put in the ones you KNOW first, then work on the ones they're not sure of. Same logic.

No, profiling isn't 100%. But it DOES raise the odds.

Israel profiles. And it works!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/15/60II/main324476.shtml

I need to watch the news more....I had no idea Egypt was attacked....

Fine. Just keep in mind that being beligerent doesn't help anyone to take you seriously.

It amuses me. Since you're never going to give me money to appear here, amusement is about all I care about.

With absolutely no explaination as to why you thought so, or which part(s).

True enough. You were welcome to ask rather than assume.

...and I countered, explaining why it was.

Explaining? No, you just mentioned NATO. Since many of the NATO countries lost people and still are not our allies, you certainly could have been clearer.

"EgyptAir Flight 648 was a Boeing 737 aircraft on a flight from Athens to Cairo, carrying 96 people. On November 23, 1985, three men of the Abu Nidal terrorist group hijacked the aircraft over the Mediterranean. An Egyptian sky marshal shot one of the hijackers, setting off a gunfight that depressurized the aircraft and forced it to land in Luqa, Malta.

On the ground in Malta, the hijackers demanded fuel. When they did not get it, they shot two American and three Israeli passengers in the back of the head, three of whom miraculously survived."

...so: You're saying that the terrorists single out the 2 Americans and 3 Israelis on the plane for shooting, and they're NOT targeting America and Israel? :rolleyes: What on Earth do you THINK?!? Why didn't they shoot the OTHER nationalities?
No, the initial hijack was not against the US. But it BECAME ONE ONCE THEY SHOT AN AMERICAN.

And yet again, I don't hold that every time someone is killed because they're American that it's an attack on the US. In Florida when they were attacking German tourists was that an attack on Germany. You're intentionally trying to stretch the number of 'attacks on the US' so you can make the argument that most of them are by muslim extremist. Bending facts "doesn't help anyone to take you seriously." The majority of atttacks on Americans are by Americans. If you really want profiling to protect Americans then we would do better to search White men as they are the majority of American Terrorists (attacks on abortion clinics, attacks on government buildings during Viet Nam, Oklahoma City, attacks on Schools, attacks on Post Offices, presidential assassinations, etc.). Why aren't they stopping every white male? Dear God, the white males have been at war with the US for 229 years!!! When will finally take action?

The WTC *was* an attack on Germany.
They are in NATO, and an attack on one NATO member is an attack on another. PAKISTAN is not in NATO. They have no treaty obligation regarding mutual defense.
Were Pakistanis killed at the WTC? Yes. Are they also our ally? Yes. But they do NOT count the WTC as something which they MUST act upon vis-a-vis the common defense treaty.

But there were Pakistanis killed and the attack was on a building that was chosen for being international. Those damn terrorists targeting Muslims.

[QUOTE=Markreich]The Egyptian Plane became an attack on the US once Americans were shot.

Ridiculous.

NATO still has to DECLARE the common defense treaty clause to be "in play". Since it's inception, 9-11 was the first (and only) time it's been used. Similarly, IRA bombings on the UK or ETA bombings on Spain or France aren't attacks on the US, since the NATO clause wasn't activated.

See the difference?
9-11: Attack on all NATO nations.
Flight 648: Hijack an attack on Egypt, expanded into an attack on the US & Israel.

When did I suggest those attacks amounted to attacks on the US? Are you just arguing anything and everything now? I know how NATO works. That's why I changed to mentioning Muslim countries and all the other countries that lost people in WTC.

And I'm in disagreement with you about that. And I would *hope* that you would agree that an attack on a US embassy, consulate, military base or ship is an attack on the US.

Of course, I was in the military. I know what is considered US Territory.

[QUOTE=Arawaks]

There is no way to accurately profile someone based on their apparent race?
Are you kidding me?

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/LAW/01/31/reid.transcript/story.reid.sentence.sketch.jpg

Call me crazy, but I'd search this guy and skip the grandmothers and the Swedish family of 5.
Political correctness and security don't mix. If Slovak tourists suddenly started a crime wave in Brazil and started stealing Speedos off the beaches, I'd HOPE that the Brazillian police would look for us and not search the population randomly.

Consider:
* You can't search everyone. It's too time consuming, etc.
* You have a group (radical Islamists) that are hijacking and bombing planes and mass transit WAY beyond any other group.
* Instead of wasting time and recourses on politically correct "random" searches, let's FOCUS whom we're searching!

Ever do a crossword puzzle? When putting down the words, most people tend to put in the ones you KNOW first, then work on the ones they're not sure of. Same logic.

No, profiling isn't 100%. But it DOES raise the odds.

Israel profiles. And it works!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/15/60II/main324476.shtml

Ok you're crazy! :)

Richrd reid doesn'r loot like an arab to me but he does to you- see the difference right there??
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/12/AA63/Richard_Reid.jpg he looks as if he is a guy of mixed heritage . There are too many mixed people for you to be able to acurrately profile the radical islamists in a large public place. :headbang:

[QUOTE=Markreich]

Ok you're crazy! :)

Richrd reid doesn'r loot like an arab to me but he does to you- see the difference right there??
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/12/AA63/Richard_Reid.jpg he looks as if he is a guy of mixed heritage . There are too many mixed people for you to be able to acurrately profile the radical islamists in a large public place. :headbang:

:sigh:
Yes, that's fine. I'm certainly not arguing that every non-white person is a terrorist, that's crazy. But: why then did you search the 87 year old Irish grandmother instead? ;)

All I'm saying is that searching young men (esp. the tanner kind with no luggage) is a good idea. So... unless you can point to Irish grandmothers, Japanese toddlers or hispanics that are terrorists... let's FOCUS these "random" searches.

If profiling raises the random search success rate by *one* it's worth doing. And, judging by the Israelis success rate, it is.

Lisbon.

Egypt is a very touristic country