NationStates Jolt Archive

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html

[there was a long insult written here...I removed it. This short article will say plenty]

-"Two boys, one aged 18 and one underage minor, were lashed 228 times before being hung by Iranian authorities"

-"over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979"

-""Homosexuality is illegal, those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch"

Screw diplomatic immunity.

If it were me, I'd choose "The highest perch".

Then I'd fly the bird, and yell "F.......................CKKKKK Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!"

All the way down.

Swine.

Hmmmm. Since one of the boys was a minor, I guess that the other fellow committed statutory rape according to American laws. I wonder if there are similar Iranian laws against rape.

It's too bad there are laws forbidding homosexual behavior, worse that the punishments are so...final. Not much of a chance to live according to the Qur'an and become worthy of Paradise if you're killed so quickly.

What a nice, progressive society. I dont think the average person can comprehend the savagery of 228 lashes. And teenagers?

disgusting and very sad.

The article doesnt mention what the families of these two boys will endure either. Its likely they will suffer some unspeakable treatments as well.

Hmmmm. Since one of the boys was a minor, I guess that the other fellow committed statutory rape according to American laws. I wonder if there are similar Iranian laws against rape.

They were both minors when arrested (I read it in a Swedish paper). So, no statutory rape. Just gay sex outside of marriage.

It's too bad there are laws forbidding homosexual behavior, worse that the punishments are so...final. Not much of a chance to live according to the Qur'an and become worthy of Paradise if you're killed so quickly.

Or, even in their fucked up views, they have realised that it's as possible to stop being gay as it is to stop being straight, so they harbour no illusions of a "cure" like Christians erroneously do. :\

Or, even in their fucked up views, they have realised that it's as possible to stop being gay as it is to stop being straight, so they harbour no illusions of a "cure" like Christians erroneously do. :\Ok. I know “cured” gay people, now strait, from my church.

Anyway, on topic: What else can you expect from a society that also kills women for being adulteress?

They were both minors when arrested (I read it in a Swedish paper). So, no statutory rape. Just gay sex outside of marriage.

So the definition of minor is different in Iranian law? Interesting.

And even if the gay sex were between married folks, I doubt the punishment would be any less excruciating.

Or, even in their fucked up views, they have realised that it's as possible to stop being gay as it is to stop being straight, so they harbour no illusions of a "cure" like Christians erroneously do. :\

Don't paint all Christians with the same brush, please. I know you weren't intending to offend by the comment, but I still don't appreciate it. :(

Ok. I know “cured” gay people, now strait, from my church.

I know a few "cured" ones too. They still didn't mind blowing me.

Anyway, on topic: What else can you expect from a society that also kills women for being adulteress?

Careful. People who come from countries that kill people, period, shouldn't throw bricks so easily.

So the definition of minor is different in Iranian law? Interesting.

No, the boy was not 18 when arrested. He turned 18 in detention. But the age of majority is 15 for boys, and 9 (!!!) for girls in Iran... Edit: Oh, it was 9 before 2002. Now it's 13 for girls.

Don't paint all Christians with the same brush, please. I know you weren't intending to offend by the comment, but I still don't appreciate it. :(

Offence was not meant. Of course I didn't mean all Christians, but just people like those who "know" "cured" gays. :rolleyes:

I apologise for the crude formulation.

No, the boy was not 18 when arrested. He turned 18 in detention.

Ah. That makes sense.

Offence was not meant. Of course I didn't mean all Christians, but just people Undelia. I apologise for the crude formulation.

I appreciate the apology, and would like to express my condolences for my fellow Christians who think it's possible to cure someone of an orientation. It is possible that someone is deluded into believing they are of a certain orientation (the human mind is amazingly able to fool itself), but curing a person of their delusion is not the same as curing an orientation by any means.

Or, even in their fucked up views, they have realised that it's as possible to stop being gay as it is to stop being straight, so they harbour no illusions of a "cure" like Christians erroneously do. :\


Funny how you can use this story to attack Christianity. This is one of your weaker attempts though.
Did you read the story?
If the "frottage" fails to stop, punishment is more severe.

This article clearly illustrates that they feel being gay can be cured.

I know a few "cured" ones too. They still didn't mind blowing me.
That made you seem so intelligent.
Careful. People who come from countries that kill people, period, shouldn't throw bricks so easily.
Yes, because murder is the same as consensual sex.
I appreciate the apology, and would like to express my condolences for my fellow Christians who think it's possible to cure someone of an orientation. It is possible that someone is deluded into believing they are of a certain orientation (the human mind is amazingly able to fool itself), but curing a person of their delusion is not the same as curing an orientation by any means.
Got to love true Scotsman arguments.

If I remember correctly they hanged a 10 year old girl with mental problems a while ago because her parents forced her into prostitution, her parents got off scot-free.

How can we continue to claim that all cultures are equal? All races are undoubtably equal but a society that behaves like this is foul.

Got to love true Scotsman arguments.

Please explain. Are suggesting that my statements were fallacious?

Funny how you can use this story to attack Christianity. This is one of your weaker attempts though.

I didn't attack Christianity. I attacked Christians who think homosexuality can be cured. Please, assemble your straw men elsewhere.

Did you read the story?
If the "frottage" fails to stop, punishment is more severe. This article clearly illustrates that they feel being gay can be cured.

And once you're "fully" gay, anal sex or other culturally unacceptable shows of affection, it's off with half your body immediately. Look into gradation of crime. Iran has them too, however extreme they may be. This article just shows that if the offence isn't "severe" enough, they may be "lenient" if you promise never to do it again. So they don't believe in cure - they believe in being afraid of being "hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch."

That made you seem so intelligent.

Yeah, what can't blow jobs do? *wipes tear from eye*

Yes, because murder is the same as consensual sex.

No, state sanctioned murder of its own citizenry remains the same, no matter the excuse.

Please explain. Are suggesting that my statements were fallacious?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman_fallacy

Refer to the article and substitute a few things.

Argument: No gay man can become strait.
Reply: But the youth minister at my church was once gay.
Argument: Ah yes, no true gay man can become strait.

No, state sanctioned murder of its own citizenry remains the same, no matter the excuse.
That may be true of you little country, but the US is a lot more tuff. If we gave criminals an inch, they would take the whole ruler. Remember, many of ours don’t mind being in prison.

Un-fucking-believable. That's all I have to say on the original post.

That may be true of you little country, but the US is a lot more tuff. If we gave criminals an inch, they would take the whole ruler. Remember, many of ours don’t mind being in prison.

Whatever makes you think you have moral high ground on Iran and easies your denial lulling you to sleep.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman_fallacy

Refer to the article and substitute a few things.

Argument: No gay man can become strait.
Reply: But the youth minister at my church was once gay.
Argument: Ah yes, no true gay man can become strait.

Ah. Let's go ahead and play the substitution game, shall we?

Argument: No valuable item can be without value.
Reply: But the valuable item on my bookshelf is without value.

Any 'gay' man who can be 'cured' was probably bisexual. If curing was possible why would so many people choose to die? Being gay is no more wonderous than straight sex, I wouldn't die for sex.

It's not a choice to be gay, if it were no one would choose it.

Whatever makes you think you have moral high ground on Iran and easies your denial lulling you to sleep.
I don’t claim moral superiority to anyone. I was just making a statement that it should be expected from a society that punishes breaches of conduct so harshly.
Ah. Let's go ahead and play the substitution game, shall we?

Argument: No valuable item can be without value.
Reply: But the valuable item on my bookshelf is without value.
I don’t think you got the point. The no true Scotsman fallacy applies to human behavior.

Any 'gay' man who can be 'cured' was probably bisexual. If curing was possible why would so many people choose to die? Being gay is no more wonderous than straight sex, I wouldn't die for sex.

It's not a choice to be gay, if it were no one would choose it.
Well, in that case, if they knew they were going to die, and they couldn’t help being gay, as you claim, why not simply abstain from sex to avoid death? Anyway, I’m not saying all people get to choose their sexuality. Abusive or distant parents can often lead one to homosexual behavior, but there are cures for it. However, why they simply couldn’t keep it in their pants (not saying they should have to, but they should have recognized the reality of the society they live in) is beyond me.

This should come as no surprise to anyone. Barbarism of this nature is common where there are oppresive and patriarchal religious laws in effect. It's justified because "it's what God said." Early Jewish law required that "when a man lays with a man they shall both be stoned to death."

In the Western world, we live in a safe and relatively enlightened time. This incident serves to illustrate that quite well.

Well, in that case, if they knew they were going to die, and they couldn’t help being gay, as you claim, why not simply abstain from sex to avoid death? Anyway, I’m not saying all people get to choose their sexuality. Abusive or distant parents can often lead one to homosexual behavior, but there are cures for it. However, why they simply couldn’t keep it in their pants (not saying they should have to, but they should have recognized the reality of the society they live in) is beyond me.

Haha, that is so delusional, it's funny. For the truth, this is a nice place to start. (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html)

This should come as no surprise to anyone. Barbarism of this nature is common where there are oppresive and patriarchal religious laws in effect. It's justified because "it's what God said." Early Jewish law required that "when a man lays with a man they shall both be stoned to death."

In the Western world, we live in a safe and relatively enlightened time. This incident serves to illustrate that quite well.

I've already stated in a previous thread that Iran was on my list of PNSUFTs (Places that Need to Seriously Un-Fuck Themselves).

It's incidents like this that make me question the whole of humanity. Many people in the world live in poverty and fear, and under repressive regimes like these. We may complain that the US is becoming a theocratic fascist state, but really...the crap right now is nothing like it is in other places in the world.

We really are...rather lucky...

Or, even in their fucked up views, they have realised that it's as possible to stop being gay as it is to stop being straight, so they harbour no illusions of a "cure" like Christians erroneously do. :\

Let's clarify that anti-homosexual beliefs are not limited to Christians, it's just that Christians back up their condemnation of gays with quotes from scripture. Homophobes come with all forms of ideology. The opinion is based on a fear of something that is "different" that isn't understood. As a Christian, I believe it is homosexual acts that are condemned, not the tendancy. But, I also believe that this is a matter between the person and God, and not within my responsibilities to judge the person "right" or "wrong". I also believe that homosexuality is an aberration from the norm, as is the tendancy to rape, molest children, or to prefer animals. I am not equating homosexuality to these acts, but merely stating that I think it is a difference in "wiring" that leads one to prefer other than straight, adult male/female, species specific sex. Some people are born with same sex preferences, just as some are born left handed, color blind, dyslexic, etc. Unless a drug or a surgical procedure can be developed that corrects these differences, there is no way that you can "cure" a gay. In the case of gays, as opposed to people who tend towards violent sex such as rape and child molestation, their sexual preference does not impact their worth to society or their value as a friend. To dismiss a person's worth based on their sexual preference is as ignorant as dismissing them for the color of their skin. You are the loser.

Haha, that is so delusional, it's funny. For the truth, this is a nice place to start. (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html)
I’m sure I could dig up a sight that supports my views, but I won’t. I recognize that you will care about it as much as I care about your sight.
Anyway, it still doesn’t answer my question about why those kids had to have sex, even though they knew they would be killed.

Let's clarify that anti-homosexual beliefs are not limited to Christians, it's just that Christians back up their condemnation of gays with quotes from scripture. Homophobes come with all forms of ideology. The opinion is based on a fear of something that is "different" that isn't understood. As a Christian, I believe it is homosexual acts that are condemned, not the tendancy. But, I also believe that this is a matter between the person and God, and not within my responsibilities to judge the person "right" or "wrong". I also believe that homosexuality is an aberration from the norm, as is the tendancy to rape, molest children, or to prefer animals. I am not equating homosexuality to these acts, but merely stating that I think it is a difference in "wiring" that leads one to prefer other than straight, adult male/female, species specific sex. Some people are born with same sex preferences, just as some are born left handed, color blind, dyslexic, etc. Unless a drug or a surgical procedure can be developed that corrects these differences, there is no way that you can "cure" a gay. In the case of gays, as opposed to people who tend towards violent sex such as rape and child molestation, their sexual preference does not impact their worth to society or their value as a friend. To dismiss a person's worth based on their sexual preference is as ignorant as dismissing them for the color of their skin. You are the loser.

That was sussinct, clear and non-inflamatory...Thank you.

This should come as no surprise to anyone. Barbarism of this nature is common where there are oppresive and patriarchal religious laws in effect. It's justified because "it's what God said." Early Jewish law required that "when a man lays with a man they shall both be stoned to death."

In the Western world, we live in a safe and relatively enlightened time. This incident serves to illustrate that quite well.

I don't mean to give umbrage, or to invalidate your argument, which is a good one, but some Jewish scholars are now claiming that that translation of the original text is wrong, and that the passage only refers to animals etc., not men (I presume it is the much-quoted passage from Leviticus.)

I do really think that it's a pity that discussions on homosexuality always turn into back-stabbing and insult contest, where one side wants to deride Christianity and the other wands to defend it. Let's just focus on the issue, ne?

That aside, my reply to the original post is as follows:

Open for more trade with Iran. Bring in globalization. Swarm them with western culture. Eventually some of our values will rub off, as people realise that, wonder of wonders, it makes the world a better place to live!

(Yes, I know that sounded like the very ignorant views of an arrogant European, but I honestly think that the only way to improve the situation in Iran and Saudi Arabia (which is marginally better, but only marginally,) one must let a gradual intermixture of cultural values take place. In the end, all development leads to progress. There may be suffering on the way, but there are no short-cuts.)

I've already stated in a previous thread that Iran was on my list of PNSUFTs (Places that Need to Seriously Un-Fuck Themselves).

It's incidents like this that make me question the whole of humanity. Many people in the world live in poverty and fear, and under repressive regimes like these. We may complain that the US is becoming a theocratic fascist state, but really...the crap right now is nothing like it is in other places in the world.

We really are...rather lucky...
I pray most fervently that God will smite the fundamentalists with their own version of evil! ( Can you see the irony in that statement? ) :D

I pray most fervently that God will smite the fundamentalists with their own version of evil! ( Can you see the irony in that statement? ) :D

(A smile slowly grows across Bolol's face...)

Oh yes...that would be rich!

Iran, cool concept, a nation of 70 million run by psychoes....
Yeah, it ought to be on the list of places that need to be un-fucked

I’m sure I could dig up a sight that supports my views, but I won’t. I recognize that you will care about it as much as I care about your sight.

Yeah, what does the American Psychological Association know anyway? It's not like they're qualified or anything. :rolleyes:

Speaking of fallacies, Slothful Induction. (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html)

Anyway, it still doesn’t answer my question about why those kids had to have sex, even though they knew they would be killed.

Because the death penalty is not a deterrent - not in the US, and not in Iran. This should hardly come as a surprise.

Open for more trade with Iran. Bring in globalization. Swarm them with western culture. Eventually some of our values will rub off, as people realise that, wonder of wonders, it makes the world a better place to live!
So true, so very true.

I’m sure I could dig up a sight that supports my views, but I won’t. I recognize that you will care about it as much as I care about your sight.
Anyway, it still doesn’t answer my question about why those kids had to have sex, even though they knew they would be killed.

Maybe it's putting too simple a face on it, but it's probably because they're kids. The "it can't happen to me" mentality that we all harbor until something does happen to us. As we get older we learn that we are vulnerable to all manner of consequences because we have already suffered through a few. A young person doesn't have that life experience and has more than just a little defiance of the elders built in. Just as you see a child violating any of the rules imposed on them by their parents and society.

I don't mean to give umbrage, or to invalidate your argument, which is a good one, but some Jewish scholars are now claiming that that translation of the original text is wrong, and that the passage only refers to animals etc., not men (I presume it is the much-quoted passage from Leviticus.)

I do really think that it's a pity that discussions on homosexuality always turn into back-stabbing and insult contest, where one side wants to deride Christianity and the other wands to defend it. Let's just focus on the issue, ne?

That aside, my reply to the original post is as follows:

Open for more trade with Iran. Bring in globalization. Swarm them with western culture. Eventually some of our values will rub off, as people realise that, wonder of wonders, it makes the world a better place to live!

(Yes, I know that sounded like the very ignorant views of an arrogant European, but I honestly think that the only way to improve the situation in Iran and Saudi Arabia (which is marginally better, but only marginally,) one must let a gradual intermixture of cultural values take place. In the end, all development leads to progress. There may be suffering on the way, but there are no short-cuts.)
I have actually heard sermons on "God and democracy" which make the claim that God is not in favor of democracy because the more democratic a government, the more "sin" there is in the form of homosexuality, pornography, sex outside of marriage, etc. This may in fact be true, but it's also true that the more democratic a nation is, generally speaking, the less likely it is to have cruel, repressive laws about these very things. This is one of the primary reasons that states which follow "religious laws" fear both democracy and capitalism.

I don’t think you got the point. The no true Scotsman fallacy applies to human behavior.


And your from where ?

Yeah, what does the American Psychological Association know anyway? It's not like they're qualified or anything. :rolleyes:

Speaking of fallacies, Slothful Induction. (http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html)
I pity your close mindedness. I at least accept people for who they are. I may think it is wrong, but I don’t go around telling them if they are truly something or not.
Because the death penalty is not a deterrent - not in the US, and not in Iran. This should hardly come as a surprise.
To claim that the death penalty doesn’t deter crime is idiotic. Are you telling me, that no one in the US has ever not committed a murder simply because they feared being killed for it?

I didn't attack Christianity. I attacked Christians who think homosexuality can be cured. Please, assemble your straw men elsewhere.



Of course you did. You said "like Christians erroneously do". You didnt say "some Christians" or even "like the Christians who think homosexuality can be cured".
I'm hardly impressed with your high-handed attempt at glossing over your ignorant and absurd generalization.

Straw men, huh? Spare me.

Of course you did. You said "like Christians erroneously do". You didnt say "some Christians" or even "like the Christians who think homosexuality can be cured".
I'm hardly impressed with your high-handed attempt at glossing over your ignorant and absurd generalization.

Straw men, huh? Spare me.

You should learn to read an entire thread before spouting off. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9304117&postcount=10) See how much time literacy would have saved you?

Apparantly there is now scientific proof about the GAY gene - I know a set of twins who have it, I know one of them better than the other and all he does is be friends with girls and totally ignores the boys as friends, he never tries it on with them and lets them walk all over him bumping his rent and moving out before they pay etc ..

Id rather it was curable as I can't understand how any man can find another man attractive we are hairy beasts lol - I don't mind poofs as long as they keep their hands away from me !!

I have actually heard sermons on "God and democracy" which make the claim that God is not in favor of democracy because the more democratic a government, the more "sin" there is in the form of homosexuality, pornography, sex outside of marriage, etc. This may in fact be true, but it's also true that the more democratic a nation is, generally speaking, the less likely it is to have cruel, repressive laws about these very things. This is one of the primary reasons that states which follow "religious laws" fear both democracy and capitalism.

While I am unable to speak for God (I personally don't think ANYONE can), something tells be he would prefer that his children live full, happy lives, free of tyranny than under the heel of those who WOULD speak for him.

Whatever makes you think you have moral high ground on Iran and easies your denial lulling you to sleep. However fecked-up the US justice system is… and it IS fecked up… it does not compare to executing rape victims and flaying gays to death. I mean, really, 228 lashes? That's… unbelievable.

Oh yes, and if the death penalty's a deterrent, how come the murder rate in good old Europe's a lot lower?

I pity your close mindedness. I at least accept people for who they are. I may think it is wrong, but I don’t go around telling them if they are truly something or not.

Speaking of fallacies, ad hominem. (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php)

To claim that the death penalty doesn’t deter crime is idiotic. Are you telling me, that no one in the US has ever not committed a murder simply because they feared being killed for it?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168

"As executions rose, states without the death penalty fared much better than states with the death penalty in reducing their murder rates. The gap between the murder rate in death penalty states and the non-death penalty states grew larger (as shown in Chart II). In 1990, the murder rates in these two groups were 4% apart. By 2000, the murder rate in the death penalty states was 35% higher than the rate in states without the death penalty. In 2001, the gap between non-death penalty states and states with the death penalty again grew, reaching 37%. For 2002, the number stands at 36%."

The death penalty is infamous for not being a very effective crime deterrent. This really has been known for a long time.

You should learn to read an entire thread before spouting off. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9304117&postcount=10) See how much time literacy would have saved you?


So you back-pedal when you're called on it. Of course you didnt mean all Christians, it just came out that way.
Literacy? Thats the best you can do to mask your bitter diatribe?

I dount anyone is impressed.

Fass...I just need to get this off my chest...but I get really tired of how everytime homosexuality and religion are mentioned on the same PAGE you go off on a damn tirade about how everyone is trying to screw you over, attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you. And that IS what you are doing.

And I AGREE with your sentiments. I'd be telling this to ANYONE.

So you back-pedal when you're called on it. Of course you didnt mean all Christians, it just came out that way.
Literacy? Thats the best you can do to mask your bitter diatribe?

I dount anyone is impressed.

I doubt very many people are impressed on you pointing out what had already been pointed out in a lot more dignified way, and which had also been explained and apologised for. Notice that your first post on this subject (post 10) came after I had explained myself (post 8). Care to waste more time on flogging what had already been a dead horse when you arrived? Any more feeble attempts at attacking my person for something I've already elucidated? Or shall I continue in doubting your literacy as you seem unable to read what has already been written?

Speaking of fallacies, ad hominem. (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php)
It wasn’t ad hominem. You stated that you wouldn’t accept a person’s former homosexuality if they became strait. You would say they were always strait. You won’t let them define themselves.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=168

"As executions rose, states without the death penalty fared much better than states with the death penalty in reducing their murder rates. The gap between the murder rate in death penalty states and the non-death penalty states grew larger (as shown in Chart II). In 1990, the murder rates in these two groups were 4% apart. By 2000, the murder rate in the death penalty states was 35% higher than the rate in states without the death penalty. In 2001, the gap between non-death penalty states and states with the death penalty again grew, reaching 37%. For 2002, the number stands at 36%."

The death penalty is infamous for not being a very effective crime deterrent. This really has been known for a long time.
I am very wary of the information you provided. Simply because it says that crime rose at a greater rate in areas with the death penalty. I see no possible reason for this.
However, I may have been over zealous in defending the death penalty. I just get irritated when foreigners pretend to understand my country better than I do. I am far more in favor of hard labor as a punishment than the death penalty.

(A smile slowly grows across Bolol's face...)

Oh yes...that would be rich!
Hehehe! Glad you saw the humor in that. :D

Fass...I just need to get this off my chest...but I get really tired of how everytime homosexuality and religion are mentioned on the same PAGE you go off on a damn tirade about how everyone is trying to screw you over,

I assure you, when tries to screw me over, I don't go on tirades. I beg for more. So, I will dismiss this criticism of yours as unfounded, if you don't mind.

attacking anyone who doesn't agree with you. And that IS what you are doing.

Refuting someone's claims is not attacking them. I may not be polite about it, but politeness kind of goes out the window when ones existence is explained as being a result of child molestation.

I doubt very many people are impressed on you pointing out what had already been pointed out in a lot more dignified way, and which had also been explained and apologised for. Notice that your first post on this subject (post 10) came after I had explained myself (post 8). Care to waste more time on flogging what had already been a dead horse when you arrived? Any more feeble attempts at attacking my person for something I've already elucidated? Or shall I continue in doubting your literacy as you seem unable to read what has already been written?

Its more likely they've grown tiresome with your bitter ranting.

As for you doubting my literacy? I'm sure even you're aware of how much value your opinions hold to me.

While I am unable to speak for God (I personally don't think ANYONE can), something tells be he would prefer that his children live full, happy lives, free of tyranny than under the heel of those who WOULD speak for him.
Amen, brother! Preach it! :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman_fallacy

Refer to the article and substitute a few things.

Argument: No gay man can become strait.
Reply: But the youth minister at my church was once gay.
Argument: Ah yes, no true gay man can become strait.

argument: it's very easy to pretend to be straight because your religion and family pressure you into it. It's called being in the closet.

reply: Jesus jesus bla bla bla I'm not listening

argument:I give up

I assure you, when tries to screw me over, I don't go on tirades. I beg for more. So, I will dismiss this criticism of yours as unfounded, if you don't mind.

I should've known you'd turn that into an innuendo...

Refuting someone's claims is not attacking them. I may not be polite about it, but politeness kind of goes out the window when ones existence is explained as being a result of child molestation.

You may not listen to this, but to drop politeness and desency when your opponent does so is allowing yourself to stoop to their level.

It wasn’t ad hominem. You stated that you wouldn’t accept a person’s former homosexuality if they became strait. You would say they were always strait. You won’t let them define themselves.

They can define themselves all they want. The fact, and the APA and most medical and psychological expert organisations support me on this one, shows that sexual orientation is not changeable. So, in the same way Ellen Degeneres wasn't heterosexual even though she acted like it, these "gay gone straight" people weren't gay just because they acted like it.

I am very wary of the information you provided. Simply because it says that crime rose at a greater rate in areas without the death penalty. I see no possible reason for this.

It's raw data. Look at it yourself. It's there.

However, I may have been over zealous in defending the death penalty. I just get irritated when foreigners pretend to understand my country better than I do. I am far more in favor of hard labor as a punishment than the death penalty.

And here I was, thinking I'd made a comment about the death penalty and not the US. Me not being American in no way precludes me of having knowledge about the death penalty in the US.

Its more likely they've grown tiresome with your bitter ranting.

Ah, Carny, that you see what I write as "bitter ranting" only strengthens my fervour. That you still bother to read it is exquisite.

As for you doubting my literacy? I'm sure even you're aware of how much value your opinions hold to me.

Likewise, rest assured.

Everyone? Everyone?

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

Your all such idiots, its overwhelming. You've gone so far off the current topic... Why does every mention of homosexuality imediatly cause someone to slam religon? That slam always leads to a retaliation and a verbal brawl ensues. Everyone involved looks like dumbass twelve year olds and nobody's views change. So drop it. Now.

Everyone? Everyone?

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

Your all such idiots, its overwhelming. You've gone so far off the current topic... Why does every mention of homosexuality imediatly cause someone to slam religon?
Well, because this thread is about religious persecution of homosexuals. It's hardly off topic.

I should've known you'd turn that into an innuendo...

That's the only thing that could have been done with such, excuse the term, baseless poppycock.

You may not listen to this, but to drop politeness and desency when your opponent does so is allowing yourself to stoop to their level.

Politeness != decency. I tend to remain decent.

argument: it's very easy to pretend to be straight because your religion and family pressure you into it. It's called being in the closet.

reply: Jesus jesus bla bla bla I'm not listening

argument:I give up
How articulate. :rolleyes:

Tis a pity. Your argument would have has merit if it wasn’t so insulting.
Here let me correct it:

Argument: It's very easy to pretend to be straight because your religion and family pressure you into it. It's called being in the closet.

Reply: Ah, true. But Jesus requires that we sacrifice for him, even if that means giving up part of who we are.

Argument: I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree. Both our points require a different perspective that the other doesn’t relate to, but none the less, we are able to understand if we just try.

Ah, Carny, that you see what I write as "bitter ranting" only strengthens my fervour. That you still bother to read it is exquisite.



Likewise, rest assured.


Ok. I'm bored. I'm sure we agree that Iran's punishment of homosexuals is wrong. Wrong in both that its treated as a crime and the punishment is excessively cruel.

Everyone? Everyone?

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

Your all such idiots, its overwhelming. You've gone so far off the current topic... Why does every mention of homosexuality imediatly cause someone to slam religon? That slam always leads to a retaliation and a verbal brawl ensues. Everyone involved looks like dumbass twelve year olds and nobody's views change. So drop it. Now.

What do you suggest we do? Go home and play Mechwarrior? That's what I'd be doing!

...Why am I not doing that?

(Goes home, plays Mechwarrior)

Dude, relax. You may not have been here long enough, but this is NORMAL. Just try not to let it get to ya'.

They can define themselves all they want. The fact, and the APA and most medical and psychological expert organisations support me on this one, shows that sexual orientation is not changeable. So, in the same way Ellen Degeneres wasn't heterosexual even though she acted like it, these "gay gone straight" people weren't gay just because they acted like it.
See, there you go again, defining others.
It's raw data. Look at it yourself. It's there.
I will make a point to, but I find raw data suspicious when there is no reason behind it. I shall have to research this further.
And here I was, thinking I'd made a comment about the death penalty and not the US. Me not being American in no way precludes me of having knowledge about the death penalty in the US.
O_o Are you kidding? You specifically attacked my country, and said I shouldn’t have an opinion on it because my homeland also practices the death penalty.

Well, because this thread is about religious persecution of homosexuals. It's hardly off topic.
You still sound like dumbass twelve year olds. All of you are acomplishing nothing here.

(Sorry to any twelve year olds who may have bee offended)

Ok. I'm bored. I'm sure we agree that Iran's punishment of homosexuals is wrong. Wrong in both that its treated as a crime and the punishment is excessively cruel.

Agreed. I have already apologised for my unfortunate wording in the beginning of this thread, but I will do so anew, just to assure you of my not meaning to say what that "sounded" as.

See, there you go again, defining others.

No, it's called defining homosexuality. They can label themselves what ever they like - doesn't change that sexual orientation cannot be changed.

I will make a point to, but I find raw data suspicious when there is no reason behind it. I shall have to research this further.

It's very interesting.

O_o Are you kidding? You specifically attacked my country, and said I shouldn’t have an opinion on it because my homeland also practices the death penalty.

No, I attacked the foundation of your indignation of this execution. It comes across as very hollow to be indignant of the death penalty just because it's people you sympathise with that are the ones being killed, that's all. I see so many Americans outraged by this execution just because it's in Iran, and it's Muslims and it's for something you do not deem worthy of the punishment. I am equally outraged at America's executions as I am of Iran's. I said it in another thread - I refuse to admonish just this death penalty because it is fellow gay people that are being killed; I admonish them all, everywhere.

Agreed. I have already apologised for my unfortunate wording in the beginning of this thread, but I will do so anew, just to assure you of my not meaning to say what that "sounded" as.

Yes- you've made that clear-thanks. I'm not sure why that offended me so much. Maybe because I usually have a totally different point of view than you do. Next time I'll likely not take it personally.
I'm really not the type to hold any sort of grudge either.

I'm outta here. Be well.

Everyone? Everyone?

SHUT THE HELL UP!!!

Your all such idiots, its overwhelming. You've gone so far off the current topic... Why does every mention of homosexuality imediatly cause someone to slam religon? That slam always leads to a retaliation and a verbal brawl ensues. Everyone involved looks like dumbass twelve year olds and nobody's views change. So drop it. Now.
I can't speak for everyone else, obviously, but I happen to believe that man has a spiritual side we deny at our peril. What I've been "ranting" about is religious fundamentalists, of whatever stripe. It's illogical in the extreme to allege that every word in millenia old writings is "the literal Word of God." Let's face it, God didn't sit down, take pen in hand and write the Bible, anymore than Allah sat down and wrote the Q'uran. They were both written by men, for their own purposes whatever those may have been.

No, I attacked the foundation of your indignation of this execution. It comes across as very hollow to be indignant of the death penalty just because it's people you sympathise with that are the ones being killed, that's all. I see so many Americans outraged by this execution just because it's in Iran, and it's Muslims and it's for something you do not deem worthy of the punishment. I am equally outraged at America's executions as I am of Iran's. I said it in another thread - I refuse to admonish just this death penalty because it is fellow gay people that are being killed; I admonish them all, everywhere.
So you sympathies with a child molester who has killed an innocent little girl. I find your view point fascinating. What has led you to such empathy?
Personally, I would find it equally deplorable if it were Christians killing homosexuals in the US.

You still sound like dumbass twelve year olds. All of you are acomplishing nothing here.

(Sorry to any twelve year olds who may have bee offended)

Do you suggest we not discuss it at all? You need to understand that with every debate there will be those who are just going to be inflamatory. Take heart in the fact that the majority isn't like that.

So you sympathies with a child molester who has killed an innocent little girl. I find you view point fascinating. What has led you to such empathy?

It's not so much sympathy as it is strenght in principle (ugh, that sounds so pretentious, but I find no other way of putting it). My emotion of outrage at the crime, while no less yours, fails to overcome my understanding of what the death penalty is, its finality, and the imperfection of our judicial system.

I could go on into how I live in a society where the death penalty hasn't been around for a long time as an explanation, and so on, but it comes back to how I was raised, I suppose. My parents instilled in me a strong sense of right and wrong, and that killing was very, very wrong, no matter who does it.

It's not so much sympathy as it is strenght in principle (ugh, that sounds so pretentious, but I find no other way of putting it). My emotion of outrage at the crime, while no less yours, fails to overcome my understanding of what the death penalty is, its finality, and the imperfection of our judicial system.

I could go on into how I live in a society where the death penalty hasn't been around for a long time as an explanation, and so on, but it comes back to how I was raised, I suppose. My parents instilled in me a strong sense of right and wrong, and that killing was very, very wrong, no matter who does it.
How do you feel about forced labor for criminals?

Iran is such a civilized country it really is, a true paradise with gardens and beautiful buildings.

:rolleyes:

How do you feel about forced labor for criminals?

It depends on the labour. Making licence plates? Sure. Picking up garbage in a chain gang? Sure. Toiling under inhuman conditions that cause pain? *thumbs down*

I don't mean to give umbrage, or to invalidate your argument, which is a good one, but some Jewish scholars are now claiming that that translation of the original text is wrong, and that the passage only refers to animals etc., not men (I presume it is the much-quoted passage from Leviticus.)

I do really think that it's a pity that discussions on homosexuality always turn into back-stabbing and insult contest, where one side wants to deride Christianity and the other wands to defend it. Let's just focus on the issue, ne?

That aside, my reply to the original post is as follows:

Open for more trade with Iran. Bring in globalization. Swarm them with western culture. Eventually some of our values will rub off, as people realise that, wonder of wonders, it makes the world a better place to live!

(Yes, I know that sounded like the very ignorant views of an arrogant European, but I honestly think that the only way to improve the situation in Iran and Saudi Arabia (which is marginally better, but only marginally,) one must let a gradual intermixture of cultural values take place. In the end, all development leads to progress. There may be suffering on the way, but there are no short-cuts.)

we did that they rejected western values and had a revolution that resulted in the hanging of the gay dudes. where have you been for the last 50 years ?

we did that they rejected western values and had a revolution that resulted in the hanging of the gay dudes. where have you been for the last 50 years ?
Then they need another revolution ... and another ... and another ... until they get it right! :p

Then they need another revolution ... and another ... and another ... until they get it right! :p

I'm gathering a few of my buddies from the redundant "Militant Wing" of Amnesty International. We're heading over to the Iran to kick the Ayatolah's ass, wanna come along?

Anyway, it still doesn’t answer my question about why those kids had to have sex, even though they knew they would be killed.
Have you ever done anything illegal ever? Ever know something was illegal but do it anyway?

Yes you have, so don't tell me you haven't.

If I remember correctly they hanged a 10 year old girl with mental problems a while ago because her parents forced her into prostitution, her parents got off scot-free.

How can we continue to claim that all cultures are equal? All races are undoubtably equal but a society that behaves like this is foul.
I made similar points last week and got called a racist. Just a friendly warning.

Have you ever done anything illegal ever? Ever know something was illegal but do it anyway?

Yes you have, so don't tell me you haven't.
I haven’t ever done anything that would get me the death penalty.

Whatever makes you think you have moral high ground on Iran and easies your denial lulling you to sleep.
Yeah, our country has the death penalty, but we don't use it to punish homosexuality. When a criminal in the US faces the death penalty it's because he's been convicted of murder or worse.

I'm not excusing our use of the death penalty here, just saying that our use of the death penalty is nowhere near as brutal as Iran's.

Have you ever done anything illegal ever? Ever know something was illegal but do it anyway?

Yes you have, so don't tell me you haven't.

Yes, I have...as a matter of fact...I'M DOING IT RIGHT NOW!

MUAHAHAHAH!!

...No really...

I haven’t ever done anything that would get me the death penalty.
But I'm sure you've done stuff which would get you killed in Iran, or at least tortured and imprisoned for life.

But I'm sure you've done stuff which would get you killed in Iran, or at least tortured and imprisoned for life.
Would going to a Christian Church get me killed there? Because I have done that.

I'm gathering a few of my buddies from the redundant "Militant Wing" of Amnesty International. We're heading over to the Iran to kick the Ayatolah's ass, wanna come along?
LOL! Absotively, posilutely! In all modesty, I'm pretty effective in a free-for-all! :D

Anyway, it still doesn’t answer my question about why those kids had to have sex, even though they knew they would be killed

In the case of the two teens hanged in Mashhad, "They admitted having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defense that most young boys had sex with each other and tdhat they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death," according to the ISNA report as translated by OutRage.
Maybe reading the full article can clear up some things for you?

Maybe reading the full article can clear up some things for you?
Forgive me if I don’t believe them. I know it shouldn’t be a crime, but criminals claim ignorance often.

Forgive me if I don’t believe them. I know it shouldn’t be a crime, but criminals claim ignorance often.
So you're saying that you shouldn't do things that you think are right, eventhough you'll get the death penalty for them? That seems smart in a self-preserving sort of way, but it's not realistic in this case I think.

I'm gonna presume you're straight here, just to not insult you.

Imagine you lived in a country that was ruled by the holy scripture of the Gay Fundamentalistic Liza Minellians, 95% of the country was gay and heterosexual acts were forbidden and punished with the deah penalty. Would that make you stop having sex?

You know, I think what it's like to be gay is pretty inconceivable for most straight people. From my experience (gay man (c) since 1984), being gay is the same as being straight. You can't help it, you can't imagine anybody likes the opposite sex and it's just as normal to you as shopping or brushing your teeth is. Also, the claims that it's curable are very insulting to me. As are any attempts of explaining gay behaviour by pointing at someones raising or background. Although some people may have claimed that they are now cured and straight, it does not mean I can be too. Sexual preference is something very personal and not to be interfered with by anyone else besides the individual. This should not be a point in this discussion.

But try to imagine you would live in a country where you would be put to death for having sex. Would that stop you, even if it were heterosexual sex?

So you're saying that you shouldn't do things that you think are right, eventhough you'll get the death penalty for them? That seems smart in a self-preserving sort of way, but it's not realistic in this case I think.
I didn’t say they shouldn’t have. I’m just saying I doubt very much that they didn’t know the consequences. If they had had gay sex out of protest, good for them, but instead of saying that, they said they didn’t know it was a crime.
I'm gonna presume you're straight here, just to not insult you.
You'de be right.
Imagine you lived in a country that was ruled by the holy scripture of the Gay Fundamentalistic Liza Minellians, 95% of the country was gay and heterosexual acts were forbidden and punished with the deah penalty. Would that make you stop having sex?
I doubt I would be alive long enough to have sex in a society like that. If I lived in a truly oppressive society, I would have long ago joined an armed resistance.

How can anyone in their right mind say that there is no difference between executing people for brutal murders and torturing and executing people for having sex with the wrong person? No matter what your feelings are on the death penalty as applied in the US, there is certainly a huge difference between the two and it's incredibly disingenuous to imply otherwise.

Would going to a Christian Church get me killed there? Because I have done that.
Most likely, yes.

I keep seeing these stories, generally posted by conservatives who are all for bombing Tehran into a parking lot, but they always just seem to me that it's just some American Neocon who's jealous that Iran does something they wish America would do.

228 lashes with a cat o' nine tails means that there is no skin anywhere on your back an your already dead. Your dead by 2-4 dozen lashes with a cat depending on how long you're willing to live. If it was with a whip then it's probably pretty much the same results except they might not be dead yet. 228 lashes is insane. The British navy only went up to about 48 with a cat and most people were dead by then, or would be dead soon. (learned from reading Mutiny On The Bounty for summer reading, the lashings of the people are described.)

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html

[there was a long insult written here...I removed it. This short article will say plenty]

-"Two boys, one aged 18 and one underage minor, were lashed 228 times before being hung by Iranian authorities"

-"over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979"

-""Homosexuality is illegal, those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch"

Screw diplomatic immunity.

:mad: :headbang: hateful murder carried out in teh name of God and religion!!!! argh!!!!! :headbang: :mad:

Bluestrips2']Apparantly there is now scientific proof about the GAY gene - I know a set of twins who have it, I know one of them better than the other and all he does is be friends with girls and totally ignores the boys as friends, he never tries it on with them and lets them walk all over him bumping his rent and moving out before they pay etc ..

Id rather it was curable as I can't understand how any man can find another man attractive we are hairy beasts lol - I don't mind poofs as long as they keep their hands away from me !!

1) You make me sick.

2) Get the F*** over yourself. Why in hell do straight males think every gay guy is going to friggin crack onto them. Does every single girl in the world crack on to you? Of course the don't. Idiot.

How can anyone in their right mind say that there is no difference between executing people for brutal murders and torturing and executing people for having sex with the wrong person? No matter what your feelings are on the death penalty as applied in the US, there is certainly a huge difference between the two and it's incredibly disingenuous to imply otherwise.

There is a difference, but it is a cultural difference. In Western cultures murder is among the worst evils one can commit. In the culture of Iran homosexuality is among the worst evils one can commit. The difference is strictly cultural, everything else is the same. The worst evils in that culture are punishable by death, same as in the US.

There is a difference, but it is a cultural difference. In Western cultures murder is among the worst evils one can commit. In the culture of Iran homosexuality is among the worst evils one can commit. The difference is strictly cultural, everything else is the same. The worst evils in that culture are punishable by death, same as in the US.

So if in my culture people breathing loudly should be punishable by death because of some fictional book that roped in half the world....you would be like "Well that's his choice, breathing loud in Brendan country is the worst evil one can commit so we're gonna let him kill thousands of people.

So you sympathies with a child molester who has killed an innocent little girl. I find your view point fascinating. What has led you to such empathy?
Personally, I would find it equally deplorable if it were Christians killing homosexuals in the US.

When you hear of a child being molested and/or killed by a pedophile, animal instinct to protect our young takes over. Speaking for myself, I feel such horror, revulsion, and hatred that I wish I could put my hands on the person who did this and kill them myself. This is not a logical reaction, but instinctual. Using logic, however, and, hopefully, living in a higher social order than dumb beasts, I know...KNOW...that it is morally and socially wrong to kill another person...no matter their crimes. How can we justify our bloodlust as superior to their's? It is not within our scope of knowledge, understanding, or insight to determine that another's life is worthless and forfeit.


I keep seeing these stories, generally posted by conservatives who are all for bombing Tehran into a parking lot, but they always just seem to me that it's just some American Neocon who's jealous that Iran does something they wish America would do.

I have often seen similar posts by you, Keruvalia. This highlights a misconception and lack of understanding of the faith and beliefs of American conservatives. In the US the conservatives are protesting marriage for gays. This in no way equates to the death penalty for gays. The truth is that gays are neighbors, co-workers, and family members. The disagreement is over the sanctioning of a lifestyle that is alien and misunderstood by most straights. Also, as I have stated before, not all homophobes are conservative, but come with all forms of ideologies.

Or, even in their fucked up views, they have realised that it's as possible to stop being gay as it is to stop being straight, so they harbour no illusions of a "cure" like Christians erroneously do. :\
It's events like this that prompt people like me to proclaim that exportation of tolerant values should be enforced on the Middle east.

In the US the conservatives are protesting marriage for gays. This in no way equates to the death penalty for gays. The truth is that gays are neighbors, co-workers, and family members. The disagreement is over the sanctioning of a lifestyle that is alien and misunderstood by most straights.
What the fuck is this "gay lifestyle"? Conservatives know nothing of gays. They are just like straights, in every way except who they are attracted to. The "lifestyle" is a media myth.

So if in my culture people breathing loudly should be punishable by death because of some fictional book that roped in half the world....you would be like "Well that's his choice, breathing loud in Brendan country is the worst evil one can commit so we're gonna let him kill thousands of people.

No, the point was that the death penalty should not be allowed for any reason, no matter how evil that crime is considered in your culture. There isnt a difference between Iran executing people for the crimes they consider most evil and the US doing the same. Except that in the US it isnt public so you dont get to see dramatic images like those you see on that web site.

What the fuck is this "gay lifestyle"? Conservatives know nothing of gays. They are just like straights, in every way except who they are attracted to. The "lifestyle" is a media myth.

Yeah, that always cracks me up, too - "the gay lifestyle"! *queue ominous music* I'd really like to know what it is, because my lifestyle doesn't seem to differ all that much from my straight friends'.

Sure, I keep trying to assume complete control of the U.S. Federal, State and Local Governments as well as all other national governments, recruit all straight youngsters to our debauched ways, destroy all healthy heterosexual marriages, replace all school counsellors in grades K-12 with agents of Colombian and Jamaican (Latvian and Albanian in Europe) drug cartels, establish a planetary chain of homo breeding gulags where over-medicated imprisoned straight women are turned into artificially impregnated baby factories to produce prepubescent love slaves for our devotedly pederastic gay leadership (you know, like Rupert Everett and Rosie&Ellen), bulldoze all houses of worship, and secure total control of the Internet and all mass media for the exclusive use of child pornographers, and all of it squeezed into a mammoth, wrinkle-inducing multi-tasking session during my lunch break, but other than that, our lives are pretty similar...

What the fuck is this "gay lifestyle"? Conservatives know nothing of gays. They are just like straights, in every way except who they are attracted to. The "lifestyle" is a media myth.

Of all the personal opinion I have expressed this commonly used phrase is the only thing that you and Fass latched onto? I'm sorry. I didn't know that it conveyed anything negative. Would it have been more acceptable if I had used one of the terms "sexual tendencies" "sexual proclivities" "sexual preferences" etc?

At the risk of stomping on some toes and inserting my foot into my mouth up to the knee, I have noticed that my gay friends overwhelmingly exhibit some like characteristics. They all seem to be extemely intelligent, imaginative, and creative. Most of them are in professional positions of leadership and successfully direct their subordinates with compassion and fairness. Although they interact with their straight peers, they all have a second circle of friends made up entirely of gays. Perhaps, rather than "gay lifestyle", it would be more appropriate to say "gay attributes".

Which brings me to another train of thought. Is it possible that the same genetic difference that leads to homosexuality could also contribute to a personality reflecting above average intelligence and leadership capabilites? Much like the connection between bipolarism and genius?

Edit: In reviewing the traits of our friends, gay and straight, I notice that most of them (with the exception of the guys from my husband's shop who regularly come to our home to watch football and clean out the fridge) are intelligent and are socially and politically involved.

At the risk of stomping on some toes and inserting my foot into my mouth up to the knee, I have noticed that my gay friends overwhelmingly exhibit some like characteristics. They all seem to be extemely intelligent, imaginative, and creative. Most of them are in professional positions of leadership and successfully direct their subordinates with compassion and fairness. Although they interact with their straight peers, they all have a second circle of friends made up entirely of gays. Perhaps, rather than "gay lifestyle", it would be more appropriate to say "gay attributes".

Which brings me to another train of thought. Is it possible that the same genetic difference that leads to homosexuality could also contribute to a personality reflecting above average intelligence and leadership capabilites? Much like the connection between bipolarism and genius?

Edit: In reviewing the traits of our friends, gay and straight, I notice that most of them (with the exception of the guys from my husband's shop who regularly come to our home to watch football and clean out the fridge) are intelligent and are socially and politically involved.


I have noticed that they are all usually very hygenic.

Neat..and clean.

Im just sayin'.....

At the risk of stomping on some toes and inserting my foot into my mouth up to the knee, I have noticed that my gay friends overwhelmingly exhibit some like characteristics. They all seem to be extemely intelligent, imaginative, and creative. Most of them are in professional positions of leadership and successfully direct their subordinates with compassion and fairness. Although they interact with their straight peers, they all have a second circle of friends made up entirely of gays. Perhaps, rather than "gay lifestyle", it would be more appropriate to say "gay attributes".

Which brings me to another train of thought. Is it possible that the same genetic difference that leads to homosexuality could also contribute to a personality reflecting above average intelligence and leadership capabilites? Much like the connection between bipolarism and genius?

All of that comes back to the fact that gay people are just simply better than you. :p

I kid, because I love. :)

The "gay lifestyle" moniker is despised because it is used by right wingers (the hateful ones, not the ones actually capable of thought) to denote a common negative characteristic of gay people, which is basically what my rant earlier was about: the "gay lifestyle" is synonymous with their prejudiced views of us, which are basically paranoid delusions of how gay people are out to get them, their children, and their little dogs, too (often called "the gay agenda," which is what the "lifestyle" revolves around). That's why the term "gay lifestyle" is despised.

It's also despised, because such a thing doesn't exist. Sure, many gay people fall into the stereotype you mentioned, but many, many more don't. I don't.

I support the iranians for making gays illegal, I don't care what anyone says, I have to go through living hearing you call them the same as us when they are not and even having them in my country, making out on national television and getting married. Well guess what? You don't have the right to be divorced! Second of all, the lashings, yes! good idea! the death sentence? No. Just stick them in jail for life. (Solitary Confinement) This is my opinion because ever since I have joined this site I have been subject to all of yours.

I support the iranians for making gays illegal, I don't care what anyone says, I have to go through living hearing you call them the same as us when they are not and even having them in my country, making out on national television and getting married. Well guess what? You don't have the right to be divorced! Second of all, the lashings, yes! good idea! the death sentence? No. Just stick them in jail for life. (Solitary Confinement) This is my opinion because ever since I have joined this site I have been subject to all of yours.

You, sad, sad person you. Do you need a hug? I have plenty to go around, even for people like you.

I'm fine, it's the rest of the world that has the mindset of the supporter of pro-homosexuality that I worry about.

I'm fine, it's the rest of the world that has the mindset of the supporter of pro-homosexuality that I worry about.

Not to worry, really. It won't affect you at all. Promise.

When you are molested as a child by a homosexual, constantly set up on blind dates with them, walk down the street to have 3 of them start grabbing your ass and calling you cute and asking you out and then trying to kiss you and told in school by one that is a guest speaker that he wants to deprogram you from the brainwashing your parents are doing and also wants you to try to be gay when you want nothing to do with THEM. You kinda don't want to be around them. My religion is against them and so am I. I don't want a hug I want people like them and their supporters to stop trying to convince me that gays are alright and respect my wishes.

I support the iranians for making gays illegal, I don't care what anyone says, I have to go through living hearing you call them the same as us when they are not and even having them in my country, making out on national television and getting married. Well guess what? You don't have the right to be divorced! Second of all, the lashings, yes! good idea! the death sentence? No. Just stick them in jail for life. (Solitary Confinement) This is my opinion because ever since I have joined this site I have been subject to all of yours.
So people's choices on what do do with their own life(they aren't even doing anything to anybody else!) should earn them a punishment as severe as having the rest of their life taken away from them?

yeah, basically Freedom is a lie, slavery is universal

When you are molested as a child by a homosexual, constantly set up on blind dates with them, walk down the street to have 3 of them start grabbing your ass and calling you cute and asking you out and then trying to kiss you and told in school by one that is a guest speaker that he wants to deprogram you from the brainwashing your parents are doing and also wants you to try to be gay when you want nothing to do with THEM. You kinda don't want to be around them. My religion is against them and so am I. I don't want a hug I want people like them and their supporters to stop trying to convince me that gays are alright and respect my wishes.

Again, you just prove you're a sad, sad person who needs a hug.

http://www.3bellsembroidery.com/images/new/Bear%20Hug.jpg

Sad nothing. I need no hugs, I would rather have a change in my government

Sad nothing. I need no hugs, I would rather have a change in my government

Nope, it's definitely a hug you need. Hugs chase and scare away all that hate you seem to have. Try it! It'll work.

Do not try to force me into something I have no interest in, I will keep the hatred I have thank you.

Do not try to force me into something I have no interest in, I will keep the hatred I have thank you.

Suggesting something out of thought for your betterment, as hate really is a destructive and pointless thing to carry around, is not attempting to force you to do anything. You just need a hug. It's up to you if you accept one or not.

Anyway, I'll be here to give you one, if you change your mind. Your hatred of me is exactly what my hug will always destroy, as hatred is an emotion powerlessness.

You will be waiting until the death of mankind, because even then I would not accept one.

Do not try to force me into something I have no interest in, I will keep the hatred I have thank you.

I began today with a searing pain in my arm, apparantly I had slept with my arm in a uncomfy angle, and I felt a tad sorry for myself. But after reading your tragic posts in this thread I just feel sorry for you. And I won't even charge you for it.

You will be waiting until the death of mankind, because even then I would not accept one.

You loss. You may not want my hug, but now you have my pity.

All of that comes back to the fact that gay people are just simply better than you. :p

I kid, because I love. :)

The "gay lifestyle" moniker is despised because it is used by right wingers (the hateful ones, not the ones actually capable of thought) to denote a common negative characteristic of gay people, which is basically what my rant earlier was about: the "gay lifestyle" is synonymous with their prejudiced views of us, which are basically paranoid delusions of how gay people are out to get them, their children, and their little dogs, too (often called "the gay agenda," which is what the "lifestyle" revolves around). That's why the term "gay lifestyle" is despised.

It's also despised, because such a thing doesn't exist. Sure, many gay people fall into the stereotype you mentioned, but many, many more don't. I don't.

Better than me? I'm a full fledged member of the lithium club. We're the brains of most every outfit. :cool:

I didn't intend to sterotype gays, but made reference to my gay friends and associates. Not one of them is not an achiever or leader. I did edit to include that most of my straight friends fall into the same pattern, so maybe it's just the "type" person that I tend to gravitate towards. I will in future not use the term "gay lifestyle" as I honestly didn't know that it was offensive to some.

Do not try to force me into something I have no interest in, I will keep the hatred I have thank you.

Why would you want to hang onto hatred? It is more destructive to you than to anyone else. Does a person's activities in his/her own home, that has no affect on anyone outside that home, make them less of an asset or less of a person? The experiences you described are not those of gays, but pedophiles...that's an entirely different breed of animal. It is one thing to not agree with another person's sexual preferences, but to condemn them and hate them because of those preferences, is to deny yourself the opportunity to meet and befriend some really nice people. You claim to be religious...yet you deny freely loving others and choose to pass judgement yourself. I suggest that you sit down with whichever holy book you believe in, and reassociate yourself with God's will.

Fass: We old ladies need all the hugs we can get so you may hug away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman_fallacy

Refer to the article and substitute a few things.

Argument: No gay man can become strait.
Reply: But the youth minister at my church was once gay.
Argument: Ah yes, no true gay man can become strait.

I think you misunderstand the difference. First, it's well-known that gay men often remain in the closet for most of their lives or go back in the closet. Your youth minister is either still gay or he was never gay. Unless, you physically altered his brain. Second, it's also well-known that just like people can be inspired to pretend to be straight (in the closet), people can (for whatever) be inspired to pretend to be gay. If, in fact, your youth minister is now straight, he was putting up a front.

Both are easy to prove. Get him a brain scan.

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/07/iran_executes_2.html

[there was a long insult written here...I removed it. This short article will say plenty]

-"Two boys, one aged 18 and one underage minor, were lashed 228 times before being hung by Iranian authorities"

-"over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979"

-""Homosexuality is illegal, those charged with love-making are given a choice of four deathstyles: being hanged, stoned, halved by a sword, or dropped from the highest perch"

Screw diplomatic immunity.

This is just disgusting... I can believe what they do...

Jocabia:

I think you misunderstand the difference. First, it's well-known that gay men often remain in the closet for most of their lives or go back in the closet. Your youth minister is either still gay or he was never gay. Unless, you physically altered his brain. Second, it's also well-known that just like people can be inspired to pretend to be straight (in the closet), people can (for whatever) be inspired to pretend to be gay. If, in fact, your youth minister is now straight, he was putting up a front.

Argument of false premises. Many gay men do not stay in the closet these days because conditions are better to come out (at least in Europe, and in some areas of the US excluding the midwest). You cannot change sexual orientation and there have been extensive studies done to show that the ex-gay therapy has only resulted in failure and even suicide. So your argument is based on that on several false premises:

1) A gay person stays in the closet because he/she fears that acceptance won't happen

2) The threat of violence and discrimination from emotionally disturbed religious fanatics

3) Surrounding environment may prompt people to keep it private.

This does not make the person heterosexual at any point. I was in the closet until I was 16, but that does not mean I was heterosexual at any time.

Dirgecallers:

That's a very sad argument and you deserve to be hugged big time. You have very severe issues. Lets say you met me and became my friend, and then found out I was gay (I don't ever mention to it when I meet someone).. would you beat me up? I'm thinking you would.. how very sad... I myself would never do anything to you that would be against your wishes. I'm a pretty passive person (despite my previous arguments with people here).

I wonder if you have any friends at all.

What the hell ever happen to expressing yourself.

Our world is so messed up. Always ahve been and no doubt always will be.

Jocabia:



Argument of false premises. Many gay men do not stay in the closet these days because conditions are better to come out (at least in Europe, and in some areas of the US excluding the midwest). You cannot change sexual orientation and there have been extensive studies done to show that the ex-gay therapy has only resulted in failure and even suicide. So your argument is based on that on several false premises:

1) A gay person stays in the closet because he/she fears that acceptance won't happen

2) The threat of violence and discrimination from emotionally disturbed religious fanatics

3) Surrounding environment may prompt people to keep it private.

This does not make the person heterosexual at any point. I was in the closet until I was 16, but that does not mean I was heterosexual at any time.

Reading comprehension is your friend. You claimed my argument was based on false premises and then agreed with me.

I was making the argument there is no such thing as 'curing' homosexuals. You have an orientation and it never changes. The anecdotal belief that people change orientations is pretty much only held by Christians. There is no scientific evidence that someone can just decide to stop being gay any more than they can decide to stop being black.

Reading comprehension is your friend. You claimed my argument was based on false premises and then agreed with me.

I was making the argument there is no such thing as 'curing' homosexuals. You have an orientation and it never changes. The anecdotal belief that people change orientations is pretty much only held by Christians. There is no scientific evidence that someone can just decide to stop being gay any more than they can decide to stop being black.

No I did not agree with you. I disagreed with the premises you gave. Just because someone is in the closet doesn't mean they are heterosexual. To boil it down, that is all I said.

No I did not agree with you. I disagreed with the premises you gave. Just because someone is in the closet doesn't mean they are heterosexual. To boil it down, that is all I said.

Yes, and I said that they were gay while in the closet and only appeared to be heterosexual. Is that not the same thing? That's what 'in the closet' means. They didn't suddenly turn gay, they were 'in the closet'. Again, you really should try to read what you're replying to.

people can be inspired to pretend to be straight (in the closet)

What is unclear about that?

Yes, and I said that they were gay while in the closet and only appeared to be heterosexual. Is that not the same thing? That's what 'in the closet' means. They didn't suddenly turn gay, they were 'in the closet'. Again, you really should try to read what you're replying to.


Your post was ambigious. Let me say, how can someone appear gay or heterosexual? I don't think you can use them to refer to how someone acts.

I dont care what anyone says, killing people due to their sexual preference is wrong. Homosexuality also, Is NOT a disease, so you can't be "cured" by a church. How one guy can love another like that is beyond me, but its still wrong to kill because of love of another human being.

-"over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979"


Anyone who executes lesbians (except those ones that dress up like men, but meh) has something mentally wrong with them in the first place. And of course all that shit about execution over a PETTY issue. I mean seriously dude they're just gay, you stupid ayatollahs.

I dont care what anyone says, killing people due to their sexual preference is wrong. Homosexuality also, Is NOT a disease, so you can't be "cured" by a church. How one guy can love another like that is beyond me, but its still wrong to kill because of love of another human being.

Of course you can be cured. You'll just have slight psychological problems due to repression. But it's all good in the name of morality! :mp5:

Well, in that case, if they knew they were going to die, and they couldn’t help being gay, as you claim, why not simply abstain from sex to avoid death? Anyway, I’m not saying all people get to choose their sexuality. Abusive or distant parents can often lead one to homosexual behavior, but there are cures for it. However, why they simply couldn’t keep it in their pants (not saying they should have to, but they should have recognized the reality of the society they live in) is beyond me.In the article it was clearly stated that the boys claimed that gay sex was common practise among young men, and that they didn't know it was a crime. Most likely, these boys weren't gay. They were experimenting sexually with their peers.
And they were killed for it.

Sad nothing. I need no hugs, I would rather have a change in my government

Better option taken from certain members of the right. Don't like the goverment then get the Hell out! Move to Iran!

Of all the personal opinion I have expressed this commonly used phrase is the only thing that you and Fass latched onto? I'm sorry. I didn't know that it conveyed anything negative. Would it have been more acceptable if I had used one of the terms "sexual tendencies" "sexual proclivities" "sexual preferences" etc?
Sorry, I'm just sick of hearing it because it's a bullshit euphemism, and segregationist. Yes, that would have been better to say what you really mean.

Which brings me to another train of thought. Is it possible that the same genetic difference that leads to homosexuality could also contribute to a personality reflecting above average intelligence and leadership capabilites? Much like the connection between bipolarism and genius?

I doubt it. I have known plenty of gays who are idiots. I however, am intelligent and straight.

I support the iranians for making gays illegal, I don't care what anyone says, I have to go through living hearing you call them the same as us when they are not and even having them in my country, making out on national television and getting married. Well guess what? You don't have the right to be divorced! Second of all, the lashings, yes! good idea! the death sentence? No. Just stick them in jail for life. (Solitary Confinement) This is my opinion because ever since I have joined this site I have been subject to all of yours.
If I had my way people like you would not be allowed to legislate your views anywhere in the world; America, Europe or Iran.

When you are molested as a child by a homosexual
You lose credibility here. Homosexuals =/= paedophiles.

Once again, it seems the people usually saying liberals should move to Iraq would be better suited living there themselves. :p

I will in future not use the term "gay lifestyle" as I honestly didn't know that it was offensive to some.
I don't really find it offensive so much as ridiculous. What does it actually mean?

I don't really find it offensive so much as ridiculous. What does it actually mean?
It means "Gays and lesbians made a united choice to live a specific way. Therefore, we shall call this the 'gay lifestyle'."

Your post was ambigious. Let me say, how can someone appear gay or heterosexual? I don't think you can use them to refer to how someone acts.

Well, if I was gay (a man only physically atracted to men) and I was married with children, I would appear to be heterosexual, but I would in fact be gay. I wasn't at all unclear. You have heard the term 'in the closet' before. Are you just having a problem admitting that you misunderstood my post?