NationStates Jolt Archive

Remember those photos from Abu Ghraib, the ones that the right-wing said were examples of just a few rogue soldiers and that Rush "Spank my ass and call me a bitch" Limbaugh said showed actions that were the equivalent of college hazing rituals? Well, they were supposed to be released to the press today, but they weren't. (http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=imOUU2rj8m&Content=608) I wonder why?

In June, the government requested and received an extension from the judge stating that they needed time in order to redact the faces of the men, women and children believed to be shown in the photographs and videos. They were given until today to produce the images, but at the eleventh hour filed a motion to oppose the release of the photos and videos, based on an entirely new argument: they are now requesting a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals. Today’s move is the latest in a series of attempts by the government to keep the images from being made public and to cover up the torture of detainees in U.S. custody around the world.

Forgive me if I doubt the government's argument in this case. I mean, if the government really thinks that individuals in these photos need physical protection, then why didn't they make that argument in the first place? Why wait?

Personally, I think that the only people they're trying to protect are themselves. I think they know that if they release photos and video of women and children being raped by US soldiers, the outcry will be so loud that they'll be chased from office with torches and pitchforks, and they'll deserve it.

And by the way, as if that weren't enough, there's this little story from Reuters (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050721/pl_nm/arms_congress_dc) to nibble on.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House on Thursday threatened to veto a massive Senate bill for $442 billion in next year's defense programs if it moves to regulate the Pentagon's treatment of detainees or sets up a commission to investigate operations at Guantanamo Bay prison and elsewhere.

The Bush administration, under fire for the indefinite detention of enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba and questions over whether its policies led to horrendous abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, put lawmakers on notice it did not want them legislating on the matter.

So in other words, if Congress decides to have a look-see into the actions at Guantanamo and, heaven forbid, actually set up some rules for the treatment of prisoners there, Bush will veto it. By the way, the two Senators currently working on Gitmo legislation are John McCain and Lindsey Graham, about as conservative as they come, so this isn't a partisan issue.

I think you pretty much pwned any argument, but lets see what Corneliu and the usual gang has to say about this...

I think you pretty much pwned any argument, but lets see what Corneliu and the usual gang has to say about this...

Oh, let's. That'll be good for some giggles.

The only way the Pentagon can be held truly accountable for its actions is when the US citizens themselves take it over.

grrrrrr

fuck these goddamn torture happy fascists, and their transparent fucking cover-ups

Well, for that to happen, it'll have to stay on the front page, because some of those guys will just ignore it and hope it goes away.

chased from office with torches and pitchforks

an idea whose time is long overdue

Well, for that to happen, it'll have to stay on the front page, because some of those guys will just ignore it and hope it goes away.

What, some of those guys here on NS?

What, some of those guys here on NS?
Yeah. When they know they don't really have a leg to stand on, they tend to stay out of the thread until some right-wing talking head comes out and gives them the company line. That's what Eutrusca did on the Rove issue--waited for Tierney to write his NY Times apologia, and then posted it here with a sense of triumph, only to have it smacked back into his face.

But there are some out there who are dumb enough to walk into it blind, and we might get a couple of them. Honestly, I hope not--I hope we get outraged conservatives as well as liberals. But as my daddy used to say, you can spit in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first.

Yeah. When they know they don't really have a leg to stand on, they tend to stay out of the thread until some right-wing talking head comes out and gives them the company line. That's what Eutrusca did on the Rove issue--waited for Tierney to write his NY Times apologia, and then posted it here with a sense of triumph, only to have it smacked back into his face.

But there are some out there who are dumb enough to walk into it blind, and we might get a couple of them. Honestly, I hope not--I hope we get outraged conservatives as well as liberals. But as my daddy used to say, you can spit in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first.
well lets bump it and see if we get anything...

While we're at this, anyone wanna help beat Whitepower in the man shot on tube thread?

While we're at this, anyone wanna help beat Whitepower in the man shot on tube thread?hmm, i haven't looked at that one....
and it appears that Corneliu is offline :( Must have saw this thread! :D
And I think the title has taken on a new meaning!

While we're at this, anyone wanna help beat Whitepower in the man shot on tube thread?
Blocked him. No reason to argue with his type.


This really is indefensable.

What are they afraid of? They're afraid of Al Jazeera and other anti-American organizations parading these photos across the globe and inciting more violence against us.

We know about the abuses at Abu Ghraib. The military has investigated into it, and brought charges on those believed to be responsible. Will these photos bring any new information to the table? Or do people just want to drudge up more hatred against the US?

Hypothetical question. If these photos just show the same faces doing the same depraved activities, do they really need to broadcasted around the world?

As to Gitmo, get over it. Investigations have found no instances of torture. There were a few instances of stupidity and humiliation, but no torture.

What are they afraid of? They're afraid of Al Jazeera and other anti-American organizations parading these photos across the globe and inciting more violence against us.

We know about the abuses at Abu Ghraib. The military has investigated into it, and brought charges on those believed to be responsible. Will these photos bring any new information to the table? Or do people just want to drudge up more hatred against the US?

Hypothetical question. If these photos just show the same faces doing the same depraved activities, do they really need to broadcasted around the world?

As to Gitmo, get over it. Investigations have found no instances of torture. There were a few instances of stupidity and humiliation, but no torture.
yay!!! *claps* :D

Aww--he's here and my girlfriend is calling me away from the computer. I trust someone on the thread will handle this.

Aww--he's here and my girlfriend is calling me away from the computer. I trust someone on the thread will handle this.

Have a nice evening ;)

Telondar, if the Bush administration is so confident Gitmo is above board why does he threaten attempts to regulate it?

Hypothetical question. If these photos just show the same faces doing the same depraved activities, do they really need to broadcasted around the world?

As to Gitmo, get over it. Investigations have found no instances of torture. There were a few instances of stupidity and humiliation, but no torture.

actually, some of what we will see will be what caused lindsey graham to say:

"The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges."

rape. beatings. people being attacked by dogs. people threatened with electrocution. murder.

to any and all people who would even attempt to defend or downplay this, shut the fuck up you fucking torture apologists.

Yeah. When they know they don't really have a leg to stand on, they tend to stay out of the thread until some right-wing talking head comes out and gives them the company line. That's what Eutrusca did on the Rove issue--waited for Tierney to write his NY Times apologia, and then posted it here with a sense of triumph, only to have it smacked back into his face.

But there are some out there who are dumb enough to walk into it blind, and we might get a couple of them. Honestly, I hope not--I hope we get outraged conservatives as well as liberals. But as my daddy used to say, you can spit in one hand and hope in the other and see which one fills up first.

As individuals you can count on them keeping mum for the most part - but one post from Corneliu, Eutrusca or Liverbreath and they'll all come pouring out of their clown car. What you really need is some left-winger that none of them likely particularly overmuch, and hope they can browbeat the opposition for obviously back-sliding on the issue-at-hand.

Someone like...

*Edit: damn it, that's what I get for forgetting to hit 'save' before tucking my significant other in for the night. I missed it. Didn't I?

Damn damn damn...

I'm not going to defend the white house over the Pictures because what happened was wrong and bad. And reform should happen. But since you all seem very up on human rights, you know that the release of the pictures would violate the Geneva conventions. Since your not suppose to put out humiliating pictures of POW's whatever we are calling them.

PS sorry about the spelling.

Hey guys, you asked a question I'm giving you the answer.
Any Abu Ghraib photos will be spread around the world, correct? It'll be picked up by the Arab news networks inciting more violence against Americans. True or False?

If these photos hold new evidence than they should be shared. If they show Rumsfeld, for example, standing over the abuse thereby proving his involvement, than they should be shared.

But if they only show more instances of Javal Davis' and Roman Krol's depravity, people who we already know are guilty, what's the point?

I'm not being partisan; I'm not being an apologist. But if these new photos hold no new information and are being spread soley to embarrass the US, what's the point in releasing them?

As Corneliu regularly says the US has not signed the Geneva Convention.

As Corneliu regularly says the US has not signed the Geneva Convention.

Maybe you could RP Cornfed for us here. You know, Bus- erm, uh "Devil's Advocate"...

Bumpy Bump Bump McBump-face.

the US has not signed the Geneva Convention.
seriously?

Personally, I just don’t want to see the pictures…
I’m already grossed out by the ones I saw.

seriously?
PResumably their lust for torture and the continued subsidising of tyrants and racist regimes makes the GC a bad idea for the US.

Still, the US is always quick to invoke the damn thing when others violate it... Unless it's nations like Israel of course :rolleyes:

EDIT: Regardless of what the pictures show, we need to see them. The US is downplaying this and they're claiming the moral high ground. We need to know. And the US needs to show us the pictures to put an end to supicion.

well lets bump it and see if we get anything...



Before I go to work for the unholy 12 hour shift, I will make one observation: You liberals crave conservative opinions like a vampire craves blood :p

How many bumps? And they cant seem to get the sad shriek-fest off the ground. Even after naming specific NSers-and calling them names...they must be so frustrated.

How many bumps? And they cant seem to get the sad shriek-fest off the ground. Even after naming specific NSers-and calling them names...they must be so frustrated.
Maybe its because the people who will be defending the position are most likely Americans, and most of us were in various states of sleep, for the last seven hours that this thread has been open? Besides, Talondar posted a compelling reason for not showing the pictures. Try refuting it without calling him names. Please. I crave perspective.

Besides, Talondar posted a compelling reason for not showing the pictures. Try refuting it without calling him names. Please. I crave perspective.

well, to take the statist approach, the judge who ordered them released as part of a freedom of information act lawsuit said they had to. or have we now gotten to the point where the executive branch is allowed to disobey the courts whenever they feel the need to cover up their crimes?

Hey guys, you asked a question I'm giving you the answer.
Any Abu Ghraib photos will be spread around the world, correct? It'll be picked up by the Arab news networks inciting more violence against Americans. True or False?

If these photos hold new evidence than they should be shared. If they show Rumsfeld, for example, standing over the abuse thereby proving his involvement, than they should be shared.

But if they only show more instances of Javal Davis' and Roman Krol's depravity, people who we already know are guilty, what's the point?

I'm not being partisan; I'm not being an apologist. But if these new photos hold no new information and are being spread soley to embarrass the US, what's the point in releasing them?
Part of the reason I want them available--although personally I don't know if I want to view them--is because I want to put the lie to the statements by so many that what happened was equivalent to fraternity pranks. No--this was murder and rape and not just of men, but of innocent women and children (not that any of it could be justified). We need to face up to this as a nation, and we need to make sure that everyone knows that this was more than just the random acts of a few bad eggs--that this has its roots in the lack of respect for human dignity that people like Major General Miller has shown since all this started. If we hide from it, we can't get past it.

To be honest, though, even more than the pictures, I'm really pissed at Bush's announcement that he'll veto any bill that regulates or investigates what's happened (happening) at Gitmo.

well, to take the statist approach, the judge who ordered them released as part of a freedom of information act lawsuit said they had to. or have we now gotten to the point where the executive branch is allowed to disobey the courts whenever they feel the need to cover up their crimes?
I should hope not. Honestly I’m not too familiar with the case, but I’m going to have to agree with Nazz on the fact that I personally wouldn’t want to view them, but they should be out there, especially if a judge ordered it. However, I am going to wait for those photos to be released before I start arbitrarily calling our soldiers baby killers.

Lol. Lots of hatred in this thread.

I don't see a necessity of showing the pictures to the public. Would create more hatred towards the US, and wouldn't be helping. Plus it's just being stupid.

You know it happened, now what is the US going to do about it thats most important. They should take more swift and firm action though.

Lol. Lots of hatred in this thread.

I don't see a necessity of showing the pictures to the public. Would create more hatred towards the US, and wouldn't be helping. Plus it's just being stupid.

You know it happened, now what is the US going to do about it thats most important. They should take more swift and firm action though.

If they pass the law they have to follow it. That was pretty much the point of the Freedom of Information Act in the first place.

It probably won't do the US any good no, but since when was penitence good for anything but one's soul?

Lol. Lots of hatred in this thread.

I don't see a necessity of showing the pictures to the public. Would create more hatred towards the US, and wouldn't be helping. Plus it's just being stupid.

You know it happened, now what is the US going to do about it thats most important. They should take more swift and firm action though.
You ever heard anyone say: "If you can do the crime, you can do the time"?
Or heard the term 'facing the music'?

Covering up everything and leaving room for speculation may not give rise to as much outrage, it it's the way to give potential terrorists more reasons. Untill the pics are available, noone will know anything for certain. It's not like the US is trustworthy in most of the world's eyes.

And really. If you can maim people, you can stand being maimed in return. Or you wouldn't have done it. It's a no brainer. You've fired missiles at soverign nations, toppled governments and armed enemy nations in order to harm people who've done less than you have. I understand perfectly why retaliation scares you shitless, but I have 0 sympathy for you. If you tortured a friend of mine, I'd be very tempted to blow your collective asses sky high as well.

And really. If you can maim people, you can stand being maimed in return. Or you wouldn't have done it. It's a no brainer. You've fired missiles at soverign nations, toppled governments and armed enemy nations in order to harm people who've done less than you have. I understand perfectly why retaliation scares you shitless, but I have 0 sympathy for you. If you tortured a friend of mine, I'd be very tempted to blow your collective asses sky high as well.

Yes, that makes sense. Being able to do something means you are capable of enduring it.

I like the way this thread shows just how desperate this rabble of NSers are for some sort of conflict to validate themselves.

The only way the Pentagon can be held truly accountable for its actions is when the US citizens themselves take it over.
All power should be in the hands of the People!! Come, Comrades, we shall overthrow these capitalist pig-dogs sitting on their fat, lazy rears and covering up their sickening persecution of the masses!! To the Pentagon we march!!!
Сегодня мы нападаем Пентагон!!!

All power should be in the hands of the People!! Come, Comrades, we shall overthrow these capitalist pig-dogs sitting on their fat, lazy rears and covering up their sickening persecution of the masses!! To the Pentagon we march!!!
Сегодня мы нападаем Пентагон!!!

Sounds good to me. Don't know about the last sentence, though, as I don't speak/read Russian.

Throw me a bone, here.

If you tortured a friend of mine, I'd be very tempted to blow your collective asses sky high as well.
No personal offense, but that was a really stupid thing to say. That’s like saying all Muslims should be killed because of the terrorists.

actually, some of what we will see will be what caused lindsey graham to say:

"The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges."

rape. beatings. people being attacked by dogs. people threatened with electrocution. murder.

to any and all people who would even attempt to defend or downplay this, shut the fuck up you fucking torture apologists.

So... do you have stats on how many detainees died in custody at Abu Ghraib? Is the number larger than you can count on one hand?

Lindsay Graham claims murders-was he good enough to provide backing material for this statement?

Considering the conditions of some of our jails domestically (Including the infamous DC area), Abu Ghraib is pretty light stuff even with the worst allegations.

About these allegations of rape and murder - is there any fact behind these allegations? Don't get me wrong - I'm VERY unsupportive of Guantanamo, given that they held British citizens. :mad:

I'd like to see them released because it's the Bush administrations pet war and they are so proud of it so anything that will make them and their war look bad is okay by me. Terrorism doesn't exist because of these photos. Terrorism doesn't exist because we have freedoms. Terrorism exists because of foreign policy.

Part of the reason I want them available--although personally I don't know if I want to view them--is because I want to put the lie to the statements by so many that what happened was equivalent to fraternity pranks. No--this was murder and rape and not just of men, but of innocent women and children (not that any of it could be justified). We need to face up to this as a nation, and we need to make sure that everyone knows that this was more than just the random acts of a few bad eggs--that this has its roots in the lack of respect for human dignity that people like Major General Miller has shown since all this started. If we hide from it, we can't get past it.

To be honest, though, even more than the pictures, I'm really pissed at Bush's announcement that he'll veto any bill that regulates or investigates what's happened (happening) at Gitmo.
If there's new information I'm all for these pictures being released. Is there any indication that there is any new info? Do these photos prove people higher up in the chain of command condoned these action?

Nazz, Dobbs, if these pictures provide no new information do you still want them to be flashed around the world? If they just show the same depraved acts that have already been shed to light is there any real point other than embarrassing the USA? I'd like an answer to these two questions.

Now as to Gitmo, there are investigations, Nazz. Did you miss the FBI inquiries into Guantanamo? The final report was brought before the Armed Services Committee just over a week ago. You can get that report here: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/detainee_investigations.html
Click on the 07/14/2005 link to get the pdf file.
The
AR 15-6 found that the interrogation of this same high value detainee
resulted in degrading and abusive treatment but did not rise to the level of
being inhumane treatment.
and
The AR 15-6 found no evidence of
torture or inhumane treatment at JTF-GTMO.

Now as to Gitmo, there are investigations, Nazz. Did you miss the FBI inquiries into Guantanamo? The final report was brought before the Armed Services Committee just over a week ago. You can get that report here: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/detainee_investigations.html
Click on the 07/14/2005 link to get the pdf file.


Maybe you should read what you link. The FBI made no enquiries, the FBI made allegations. The DoD made enquiries.

Maybe you should read what you link. The FBI made no enquiries, the FBI made allegations. The DoD made enquiries.
Whoops, sorry. Typed the wrong word. Thanks for the catch.
The point still stands that allegations of tortue and inhumane treatment are nothing but allegations.

Nazz, Dobbs, if these pictures provide no new information do you still want them to be flashed around the world? If they just show the same depraved acts that have already been shed to light is there any real point other than embarrassing the USA? I'd like an answer to these two questions.


1) I don't know if they provide new information or not. I know they exist, and as photographic records, they technically do consist of "new" information, in a very literal sense. Let the people decide whether they should be flashed around the world. Let the people decide whether the information contained in those photos should be suppressed or not. After all, it's their war, too - isn't it?

2)If they do "just show the same depraved acts", the act of suppressing the photos should not have been ordered. It helps craft the illusion that there is something being hidden from the public's eye, something those in power are afraid to have associated with their watch. I might have been positively disinterested in the release of the photos, just blithely assuming just as you've conjectured - nothing 'new' here, just more of the same we've seen to date - but the act of suppression reeks. What it reeks of is another topic for another thread, really, but at the very least, it demonstrates that the current admin is deep in the throes of a siege mentality, unable to maintain as many fronts of disinformation as it must in order to stave off popular discontent at home and abroad. Embarassment be damned - there is a time and place to question Authority, and if this isn't it, then I don't know what is.

I think Dobbs just said this but anyhoo: Regardless of whether we want to see pictures of torture, that isn't a valid reason to allow them to bee suppressed, buried and otherwise forgotten about. I have no particular urge to see pictures of men women and children being abused by US forces, but I damn well want the option.

Originally posted by Talondar


Whoops, sorry. Typed the wrong word. Thanks for the catch.
The point still stands that allegations of tortue and inhumane treatment are nothing but allegations.

I think it makes a difference. I wouldn't think that the FBI were ones to make allegations lightly.

The DoD report actually states that all but 2 of the allegations were true, they just disagreed with the FBI as to whether they were an abuse.

One of the allegations that they could find no proof of was that the military improperly interfered with FBI operations. I would have thought that it was up to the FBI to decide on that.

Have you really read the report? It's full of admissions of use of unauthorised techniques and it really doesn't show what you seem to think it shows.

The commander JTF-GTMO should be held accountable for failure to supervise the interrogation of the suspect of the first Special Interrogation Plan and should be admonished for tht failure