NationStates Jolt Archive

This is my list of 41 presidents from greatest to least. This excludes President Bush and counts President Cleveland once. This list is based solely on the president while he was in office. No work before or after counts:
1. Abraham Lincoln-Held strongly in for the North in the Civil War for a victory; sort of reunited the country before JWB
2. George Washington-Pulled the country out of debt; Kept a strong military for rebellion; boosted a fledgling country
3. Franklin Roosevelt-Pulled the country out of the depression; Went to war with Japan
4. Teddy Roosevelt-Built the military into a superpower
5. Woodrow Wilson-Guided the US through WWI; Introduced the League of Nations (a pre-United Nations)
6. Thomas Jefferson-Purchased Louisiana Territory; abolished slave trade
7. Harry S Truman-Ended WWII
8. John Adams-Handled the XYZ Affair
9. Ronald Reagan-Cut taxes; lowered inflation
10. John Fitzgerald Kennedy-Positioned for civil rights movement
11. James Knox Polk
12. Grover Cleveland
13. Andrew Jackson
14. James Madison
15. Martin van Buren
16. Rutherford Birchard Hayes
17. William Howard Taft
18. James Monroe
19. John Quincy Adams
20. William McKinley
21. Benjamin Harrison
22. George Herbert Walker Bush
23. Dwight David Eisenhower
24. Chester Alan Arthur
25. William Jefferson Clinton
26. John Tyler
27. Zachary Taylor
28. Millard Fillmore
29. Franklin Pierce
30. James Earl Carter
31. William Henry Harrison
32. James Abram Garfield
33. Andrew Johnson
34. Calvin Coolidge
35. Lyndon Baines Johnson-Escalated the Vietnam War
36. Ulysses S. Grant-Whiskey Ring fraud; Native American bribery
37. Richard Milhous Nixon-Watergate scandal
38. Gerald Ford (Leslie King)-Pardoned Nixon; Mayaguez incident
39. James Buchanan-No stance on slavery in the territories
40. Herbert Hoover-Hmmm? Oh, yeah the Depression...
41. Warren G. Harding-Is the KKK bad?

Thoughts?

...*starts a slow clap*

Would you mind editing it and putting a couple words explaining why said president is first, second, etc... and what made them great?

I'd say Eisenhower is better than Papa Bush.

I'd move Ike and Nixon up a little further.

Ike gave us the highway system we all know and love.

Nixom, while I'm not saying to forgive his role in Watergate, you can't overlook his opening relations with China, pulling out of Viet Nam, and making sure the PRC and USSR didn't unite against us.

Would you mind editing it and putting a couple words explaining why said president is first, second, etc... and what made them great?
Fine...it'll take another half-hour though.

I'd say Eisenhower is better than Papa Bush.Ike wasn't in favor of democratic elections though...

Fine...it'll take another half-hour though.I have time... :D

This is my list of 41 presidents from greatest to least. This excludes President Bush and counts President Cleveland once. This list is based solely on the president while he was in office. No work before or after counts:
1. Abraham Lincoln
2. George Washington
3. Franklin Roosevelt
4. Teddy Roosevelt
5. Woodrow Wilson
6. Thomas Jefferson
7. Harry S Truman
8. John Adams
9. Ronald Reagen
10. John Fitzgerald Kennedy
11. James Knox Polk
12. Grover Cleveland
13. Andrew Jackson
14. James Madison
15. Martin van Buren
16. Rutherford Birchard Hayes
17. William Howard Taft
18. James Monroe
19. John Quincy Adams
20. William McKinley
21. Benjamin Harrison
22. George Herbert Walker Bush
23. Dwight David Eisenhower
24. Chester Alan Arthur
25. William Jefferson Clinton
26. John Tyler
27. Zachary Taylor
28. Millard Fillmore
29. Franklin Pierce
30. James Earl Carter
31. William Henry Harrison
32. James Abram Garfield
33. Andrew Johnson
34. Calvin Coolidge
35. Lyndon Baines Johnson
36. Ulysses S. Grant
37. Richard Milhous Nixon
38. Gerald Ford (Leslie King)
39. James Buchanan
40. Herbert Hoover
41. Warren G. Harding

Thoughts?

I'd move Millard Fillmore to the top of the list. :D

Calvin Coolidge is by far the best.

Why's Jimmy Carter so far down?

1. George Washington (Probably one of the most apolitical presidents we've had)
2. Thomas Jefferson (Defended many of the rights we enjoy at present, and in some ways authored them)
3. James Monroe (same as above)
4. James Madison (Can be considered the Father of our Federal Form)
5. John Adams (same as above)

These are the "Greats"....

The Rest will be grouped into category.

The Absolute Worst Presidents:
1. Abraham Lincoln (Did more damage to the federal form, and honesty of the Government than any other president in history)
2. Eisenhower (We can thank him, for the most part, for the Red Scare).
3. Herbert Hoover (Black Tuesday Anyone?)
4. Ulysses S. Grant (Drunk Slavedriver)
5. Richard M. Nixon (Need I say?)

Decent Presidents:
1. Franklin D. Roosevelt.
2. Harry S. Truman.
3. Ronald Reagan
4. John Kennedy
5. Lyndon Johnson
6. George H.W. Bush
7. James E. Carter
8. William J. Clinton
9. Woodrow Wilson
10. Teddy Roosevelt

The rest are take or leave... I have no opinion of them.

I have time... :D
I've got it started, the top and the bottom.

The only of your opinions so far that I would disagree with would be Wilson being so far up. His incompetence in dealing with international heads of state is partly to blame for the screwed up treaty of Versailles. The French played him like a fiddle and the only thing he got passed of his 14 points was the league, which was weak, but taught some important lessons for the UN.

I didn't realize that Jefferson abolished the slave trade. It was written into the Constitution (Article I, Section 9) that the importation of slaves would cease as of the year 1808, which I believe was during Jefferson's presidency. Is this what you're referring to? If so, I dispute your claim. Also, Jefferson was himself a slave owner and fathered illegitimate children by at least one of his slaves (and I'm so sure that she completely consented). I wouldn't question that he was a brilliant person, but he strikes me as being a total jerk.

Also, I really think that the Louisiana purchase was a no-brainer for any president. I recall that Napoleon approached Jefferson on the deal, not vice-versa. That would just place Jefferson in the right place at the right time, not really make him a great president.

But I'm also not a historian; I'm an attorney.

There are a number I disagree with. Polk should be far lower, since he did nothing but escalate tension in the US over slavery. Reagan is popular for being liked, but I don't think he accomplished enough for a top 10 spot. Top half maybe, but not top 10.
Nixon gets a bad rap. Its true he made many criminal actions and generally was an arse, but at foreign policy he was rather astute. For that I wouldn't put him quite as far down.
Andrew Jackson was a monster. He was resisted anti-slavery legislation, started the Bank war which would cause a depression and collapse of the Second Bank of America, and forced the Cherokee nation to move west of the Mississippi despite notice from the Supreme Court that this was illegal.

There are some others I'd disagree with, but those are the glaring ones to me.

Pretty good list, dont disagree with much, cept maybe andrew jackson, he was responsible for the march of tears and such

Snip
a monster. He was resisted anti-slavery legislation, started the Bank war which would cause a depression and collapse of the Second Bank of America, and forced the Cherokee nation to move west of the Mississippi despite notice from the Supreme Court that this was illegal.

There are some others I'd disagree with, but those are the glaring ones to me.

Yah thats what i was ayin, too lazy right then to read it(:

I didn't realize that Jefferson abolished the slave trade. It was written into the Constitution (Article I, Section 9) that the importation of slaves would cease as of the year 1808, which I believe was during Jefferson's presidency. Is this what you're referring to? If so, I dispute your claim. Also, Jefferson was himself a slave owner and fathered illegitimate children by at least one of his slaves (and I'm so sure that she completely consented). I wouldn't question that he was a brilliant person, but he strikes me as being a total jerk.

Also, I really think that the Louisiana purchase was a no-brainer for any president. I recall that Napoleon approached Jefferson on the deal, not vice-versa. That would just place Jefferson in the right place at the right time, not really make him a great president.

But I'm also not a historian; I'm an attorney.

Yes and it would be a no brainer to any president to resist the succesion of the south, but its still certainly on lincolns resume, and keep in mind that thomas jefferson did set his slaves free.

Yes and it would be a no brainer to any president to resist the succesion of the south, but its still certainly on lincolns resume, and keep in mind that thomas jefferson did set his slaves free.

A no brainer to start a war with Americans killing Americans? Why didn't Buchanan stop it from happening?

Yes and it would be a no brainer to any president to resist the succesion of the south, but its still certainly on lincolns resume, and keep in mind that thomas jefferson did set his slaves free.

is it really that easy a decision to enter into an internal war that ultimately cost the lives of more american soldiers and damage to property than every other war in the nation's history combined, when you don't even really know for sure that you're going to win? maybe it is.

i didnt' realize that jefferson freed his slaves. too bad everyone didn't at that time.

Im just happy to see Truman getting more credit than usual, and Eisenhower less. Sadly, too often I see the opposite.

<snip>41. Warren G. Harding-Is the KKK bad?

Thoughts?
lol, perfect! It's proven there is no doubt as to who is the worst President!

Finally, I've made a thread where not everyone hates me!

A no brainer to start a war with Americans killing Americans? Why didn't Buchanan stop it from happening?
Lincoln didn't start the Civil War. The South did. They attacked a federal fort, on federal land.


To the OP:

Jackson should not be 13. He destroyed the Federal Bank, appointed Taney to the Supreme Court, and was ultimately responsible for the Trial of Tears, when he refused to enforce the Supreme Court's ruling on the matter, thus violating the Constitution itself. The only good thing going for him was his opposition to nullification. Otherwise, he sucked. He makes Carter look like an excellent President. (Carter was too nice to be an effective President, which is why he is so low on the list.)

is it really that easy a decision to enter into an internal war that ultimately cost the lives of more american soldiers and damage to property than every other war in the nation's history combined, when you don't even really know for sure that you're going to win? maybe it is.

i didnt' realize that jefferson freed his slaves. too bad everyone didn't at that time.

When did Jefferson free his slaves? I knew he struggled with the double standard of being against it, yet having them anyway to make a buck. If he did it on his deathbed, thats totally lame. "Since I am dying, and I won't make anymore money off of your labor, I am going to set you free....."
Yeah, I just checked some books and the web, and the phrase "He never freed his own slaves" keeps popping up, so if you can point me somewhere, that would be awesome! :)

lol, perfect! It's proven there is no doubt as to who is the worst President!Harding indeed. However I fear that Dubya might somehow make himself eligible by starting WWIII. It's too early to say.

I dont usually chime in on political conversations but this one is rather good. Educated answers rather than opinions. It actually makes me happy.

Anyways...

When I think of presidents I like to look at doctrines they instituted.. So, obviously the founding fathers are on the top of the list, (federal republic).

Then I go down the list

Monroe - Europe stays out of the W Hemisphere. Sooo many implications.

Roosevelt - Diplomacy with a big stick, it seems to me the US gov. wasnt keen on this idea before him. Forced other nations to respect the US.

Lincoln - Unification. He saw unification was the only way for the US to be a great nation. The federal idea did get suffer but it wasnt like slavery was a problem that had a compromise. Also, i have takem some military history classes and from I have gathered there were many more problems other than slavery that never were addressed. For example, the southern states didnt want a Navy because they didnt have large fishing industries (shortsided, because they needed it to protect trade) but caused a lot of mistrust of the federal government all the way back around 1800.

Reagen - Don't know what to call it but he understood that Soviet containment wasn't good enough.

The next doctrine that I see is under Bush (he hasnt been great on social issues which drops him a bit, but may be remembered the doctrine). Democracy to combat fanaticism. A change from isolating and ignoring fascist governtment to engaging and changing. I think it will be seen as a great doctrine if future presidents continue it.




Then I would put the great leaders (WW2).
JFK for not screwing up containment (hard job)



I am not sure where to put Nixon, this is the first time i have read anything decent about him. I was born in 82, everything I knew of him was his bad deed.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Harding indeed. However I fear that Dubya might somehow make himself eligible by starting WWIII. It's too early to say.
Must...keep...from...telling him off! I'll quit while I'm ahead...

2. George Washington-Pulled the country out of debt; Kept a strong military for rebellion; boosted a fledgling country

Really not that great a President. He was good for what we needed, a strong figurehead to unify the country under one government, but if he was the fouth or fifth President, he would've been pretty wrong.

3. Franklin Roosevelt-Pulled the country out of the depression; Went to war with Japan

More like forced into war with Japan. He was a pretty dirty campaigner, and probably deserves a lion's share of the credit for the developement of our own negative ad campaigns. He was also incredibly secretive, and often circumvented the normal channels to get what he wanted. He also had a great degree of diregard for opinion other than his own, and even tried to get around the Supreme Courts check on the Executive Branch with the Court Packing Plan. Also, once at war, he pretty much sold out Eastern Europe to the Soviets. He knew he was in bad health, but ran for a Fourth Term anyway, in the middle of a war no less, and picked a relatively inexperienced running mate. He was also way to egotistical.

4. Teddy Roosevelt-Built the military into a superpower

Actually, we were pretty pitiful in terms of military power, with the exception of our Navy, and that wasn't Teddy Roosevelt alone, though he certainly had some influence on it.

5. Woodrow Wilson-Guided the US through WWI; Introduced the League of Nations (a pre-United Nations)

Also didn't believe segregation was a bad idea, of course, it was a different time. But I would rate him pretty high too.

7. Harry S Truman-Ended WWII

Also began our policy of containing Communism, and can be greatly credited with helping Europe stabilize after the massive destruction of WWII.

9. Ronald Reagan-Cut taxes; lowered inflation

Reaganomics weren't so brilliant though. But at least you didn't say he ended the Cold War.

10. John Fitzgerald Kennedy-Positioned for civil rights movement

He is hurt by pulling out of Bay of Pigs, either go forward or abort.

13. Andrew Jackson

I'm sure the Spanish would disagree

23. Dwight David Eisenhower

35. Lyndon Baines Johnson-Escalated the Vietnam War

You put Kennedy up there for his stance on Civil Rights, and Johnson was even more so in support. And Kennedy had Bay of Pigs and continuing support to Vietnam on his shoulders.

36. Ulysses S. Grant-Whiskey Ring fraud; Native American bribery

Also sort of a lameduck

40. Herbert Hoover-Hmmm? Oh, yeah the Depression...

But he really can't be blamed for it more than any of his laissez faire predecessors Harding and Coolidge. His big mistake was in not doing anything until it was too late, although there is a new revisionist economist theory that his approach would have ended it sooner than FDR's.

But he really can't be blamed for it more than any of his laissez faire predecessors Harding and Coolidge. His big mistake was in not doing anything until it was too late, although there is a new revisionist economist theory that his approach would have ended it sooner than FDR's.

I think the idea of the new theory is that the laizze faire group was too hands off and FDRs ideas were too hands on. I like FDR just because he tried to do something. His programs in the long run would have hurt the nation but they acted as an injection.

The best way of ending the depression was most likely somewhere in the middle. Degrading FDR saying that he prolonged it will fall on deaf ears for the most part.

Thoughts?

I'd suggest that you have both JFK and Reagan rated far too highly, that you have Ike rated far too low, and that Nixon should be at the very bottom of the list, considering his contempt for the rule of law.

Yeah, that's much worse than joining the Ku Klux Klan...unless you're a racist. (Raises eyebrows)

Hey, I'm not endorsing racism. I just feel that, in this case, one's actions in office matter far more than such prior entanglements.

And, if you believe that Nixon was lily-white when it came to race relations, I'd suggest that you review his formerly secret tapes.

And, besides, god forbid that anyone might disagree with you, even in the slightest. (Raises eyebrows)

Why's Jimmy Carter so far down?

Because Carter was a fool who didn't have a clue as to military policy or to foreign affairs. Come to think of it, neither did Clinton but Clinton at least had the balls to keep the military afloat (naval pun) whereas Carter ran it into the ground.

Harding indeed. However I fear that Dubya might somehow make himself eligible by starting WWIII. It's too early to say.

Actually, it was the terrorists that started World War III!

To me and this is my list and not an attempted HiJack, the list is good though my top 4 would've been:

1. Lincoln-He kept the union together. Yes he circumvented the US Constitution but a state of emergency was declared so therefor, it was technically legal. We can debate the merits of this in a different thread though.

2. George Washington-He was the 1st president and set many precedents that still continue today.

3. Reagan-Great public speaker and literally bankrupted the USSR with a massive military buildup. Not to mention his one liners were great. And heck, great tax cuts :D

4. FDR-Led the nation through World War II. Got to admire his spunk in that though he did sell out eastern europe and that pisses me off but hey, I have to admire his courage.

The only of your opinions so far that I would disagree with would be Wilson being so far up. His incompetence in dealing with international heads of state is partly to blame for the screwed up treaty of Versailles. The French played him like a fiddle and the only thing he got passed of his 14 points was the league, which was weak, but taught some important lessons for the UN.
So the French, who were hungry for land and looking for revenge, create a miserable treaty, and it's Wilson's fault because he didn't stop them?

That makes no sense, especially because Wilson opposed the treaty (peace without victory) but the French and English out-voted him 2-1.

Lincoln didn't start the Civil War. The South did. They attacked a federal fort, on federal land.





Poor choice of words. He engaged in the Civil War. It started before he took office.

Poor choice of words. He engaged in the Civil War. It started before he took office.

No it didn't. It started after he took office. The secession started before he took office. As for engaging, you would too if enemy troops fired at your soldiers.

Hey, I'm not endorsing racism. I just feel that, in this case, one's actions in office matter far more than such prior entanglements.

And, if you believe that Nixon was lily-white when it came to race relations, I'd suggest that you review his formerly secret tapes.

No different from FDR or Wilson. And Nixon was able to swallow his pride and pull out of Vietnam. He also opened trade relations with China and drove a wedge further between them and the Soviets.

I'm not saying ignore Watergate, just don't flush everything.

No it didn't. It started after he took office. The secession started before he took office. As for engaging, you would too if enemy troops fired at your soldiers.

Ya, but the seccession pretty much kicked it off. When Virginia left, it was the point of no return. The first shot was just a formality.

Ya, but the seccession pretty much kicked it off. When Virginia left, it was the point of no return. The first shot was just a formality.

Not necessarily. If the South hadn't fired on Fort Sumter who knows what would've happened. Something probably could've been done on the diplomatic level but once the South fired on Fort Sumter, its war and the president is obligated to fight it otherwise, he'll be labeled a coward like Jefferson and Carter.

Because Carter was a fool who didn't have a clue as to military policy or to foreign affairs. Come to think of it, neither did Clinton but Clinton at least had the balls to keep the military afloat (naval pun) whereas Carter ran it into the ground.
How did Carter manage to do that?

Andrew Jackson is 13?

Thats insane.

"The only good indian, is a dead one, and I'm dedicated to the idea of a lot of dead indians."
-Andrew Jackson.

How did Carter manage to do that?

By cutting defense? Please....

By cutting defense? Please....
Well... I'm not well informed on your defence cuts... what did he cut? The USSR was quite scared with Pershing 2 missiles, GLCMs and the like--and it was Carter who pushed through, in December 1979, the decision to deploy this nuclear-tipped stuff in Europe.

Well... I'm not well informed on your defence cuts... what did he cut? The USSR was quite scared with Pershing 2 missiles, GLCMs and the like--and it was Carter who pushed through, in December 1979, the decision to deploy this nuclear-tipped stuff in Europe.

Just ask anyone who served in our forces under Carter. I've heard the stories of no gas for our jets, ships, tanks, etc. Our forces were getting sliced and sliced and troop morale was low. When he left and Reagan instituted a military build up along with pay raises, everything got back on track. We had gas for our hardware, troop morale was very high, and our forces had better paid.

Just ask anyone who served in our forces under Carter. I've heard the stories of no gas for our jets, ships, tanks, etc. Our forces were getting sliced and sliced and troop morale was low. When he left and Reagan instituted a military build up along with pay raises, everything got back on track. We had gas for our hardware, troop morale was very high, and our forces had better paid.
Well, I've got no opportunity to talk with the Carter-era servicemen, only with their Brezhnev-era counterparts. :)

So, Carter cut military spending and reduced the size of the US Armed Forces? I thought that he had only stopped the neutron bomb programme and the production of B-1A.

4. FDR-Led the nation through World War II. Got to admire his spunk in that though he did sell out eastern europe and that pisses me off but hey, I have to admire his courage.

Ah, the wonders of hindsight.

FDR didn't have much choice in "selling out" Eastern Europe. America need Stalin's help in the war. It would have been foolish at the time to not agree to his terms.

In addition, FDR can't be held responsible for Stalin breaking his deal and not allowing Eastern Europe to hold free elections.

No different from FDR or Wilson. And Nixon was able to swallow his pride and pull out of Vietnam. He also opened trade relations with China and drove a wedge further between them and the Soviets.

I'm not saying ignore Watergate, just don't flush everything.

While Nixon did begin withdrawing from Vietnam, his secret bombings of Cambodia helped the Khmer Rouge gain influence and power. This gave rise to Pol Pot, one of the worst dictators of the 20th century.

It's good that Nixon opened up trade with China, but even that is far outweighed by the other things he did.

Ah, the wonders of hindsight.

Not hindsight dude.

FDR didn't have much choice in "selling out" Eastern Europe. America need Stalin's help in the war. It would have been foolish at the time to not agree to his terms.

No kidding. I know he had no choice but then again.... the US and Britain, combined with surrendering Germans, could've hit the USSR. I can see why we didn't and I accept that position. Nothing much could've been done but that doesn't keep speculation from happening :p

In addition, FDR can't be held responsible for Stalin breaking his deal and not allowing Eastern Europe to hold free elections.

Of course not since he was dead before World War II ended.

Well, I've got no opportunity to talk with the Carter-era servicemen, only with their Brezhnev-era counterparts. :)

I have 2 parents that served during the Carter Administration.

So, Carter cut military spending and reduced the size of the US Armed Forces? I thought that he had only stopped the neutron bomb programme and the production of B-1A.

And yet, we still have the B-1! Amazing isn't it? Amazing what a change in Command would do.

...
And yet, we still have the B-1! Amazing isn't it? Amazing what a change in Command would do.
What's so amazing with that? New president, new policies... :rolleyes:

I've found this, and here Mr Carter seems to be quite 'warmongerish'...

https://www.denix.osd.mil/denix/Public/ES-Programs/Conservation/ColdWar/coldwar.html

1978 May 30: Carter recommends to NATO to modernize and increase alliance's military forces. Signals end of detente.

1979 December 4: Military build-up: Carter calls for a major military build-up to counter Soviet military power.

1980 July: Carter signs Presidential Directive 59 calling for capacity to wage limited and protracted nuclear war.

Maybe he wasn't so anti-US military, after all?

I think that he should have gone to war with Iran when they invaded the US Embassy.

I'd move Ike and Nixon up a little further.

Ike gave us the highway system we all know and love.

Nixom, while I'm not saying to forgive his role in Watergate, you can't overlook his opening relations with China, pulling out of Viet Nam, and making sure the PRC and USSR didn't unite against us.


However, Nixon did go into Cambodia and Laos without even the Secretary of the Air Force knowing. About 1/3 of Cambodia's citizens were displaced, and Nixon is probably to blame for the Khmer Rouge taking power. The same amount of bombs (2.1 million tons) were dropped on Laos as were dropped by allied nations as a whole during WWII. And most of those bombs were dropped on Laotian villages.

Also, Woodrow Wilson was a horrible racist and fought against women's suffrage. you might want to knock him down a few spots.

I've found this, and here Mr Carter seems to be quite 'warmongerish'...

https://www.denix.osd.mil/denix/Public/ES-Programs/Conservation/ColdWar/coldwar.html






Maybe he wasn't so anti-US military, after all?

I suggest you talk to people who serve during the Carter Administration. You'll get a better feel for just what our men and women suffered under his leadership.

Not hindsight dude.



No kidding. I know he had no choice but then again.... the US and Britain, combined with surrendering Germans, could've hit the USSR. I can see why we didn't and I accept that position. Nothing much could've been done but that doesn't keep speculation from happening :p



Of course not since he was dead before World War II ended.

That's a big toss-up. Germany was in shambles, Britain was very short of man-power (the whole reason Monty was so careful- he new he really had no reserves if a major chunk of the British army was knocked out), and America never liked losing people in the first place. So, we have a country with the biggest air force in the world vs. a country with a huge infantry/artillery/armor based army. Our only real option would have been a nuclear attack on the Soviets, and being that we had very few and very expensive weapons at that time, who knows how well that could have gone? Plus, everyone kinda wanted to go home. So the Soviets got Eastern Europe as a buffer zone, we made West Germany into a buffer zone, nuclear war never happened (yet), the Soviet Union fell, and things seem to be looking up in that part of the world.

I have 2 parents that served during the Carter Administration.



And yet, we still have the B-1! Amazing isn't it? Amazing what a change in Command would do.
And yet, the B-1 is still plagued by problems! Thats why we still rely on the 50 year old B-52!
(I do admit it is a cool airplane)

I suggest you talk to people who serve during the Carter Administration. You'll get a better feel for just what our men and women suffered under his leadership.
Corneliu, I don't want to say this, but I already had a drawn-out discussion with you last month where, as it came out in the end, I was relying on international law and American law, and you were building your arguments upon the opinions your parents, several people in one class or another, and the friends that you have.

And yet, the B-1 is still plagued by problems! Thats why we still rely on the 50 year old B-52!
(I do admit it is a cool airplane)

And its the most versitile airplane in our arsonel. Even the C-130 has been around for over 50 years and that plane is still kicking too even though they have tried to replace it. Luckily the AF realized they can't.

Corneliu, I don't want to say this, but I already had a drawn-out discussion with you last month where, as it came out in the end, I was relying on international law and American law, and you were building your arguments upon the opinions your parents, several people in one class or another, and the friends that you have.

And I'm telling you that I have been around a hell of a lot more people that served under Carter.

As for last month's discussion, you and I were both using International law to make our points but that is a different discussion.

And I'm telling you that I have been around a hell of a lot more people that served under Carter.
Glad for you. The USSR didn't regard Carter as weak in defence issues, though.

As for last month's discussion, you and I were both using International law to make our points but that is a different discussion.
Actually, you failed to support your position with a single international legal instrument then. But let's not discuss it here, I don't want to take part in thread hijacking. :)