NationStates Jolt Archive

You think that theocracies are good things?


Iran executes gay teenagers
Boys didn't know sex was "punishable by death"

Two gay teenagers were publicly executed in Iran on 19 July 2005 for the 'crime' of homosexuality.

The youths were hanged in Edalat (Justice) Square in the city of Mashhad, in north east Iran. They were sentenced to death by Court No. 19.

Iran enforces Islamic Sharia law, which dictates the death penalty for gay sex.

One youth was aged 18 and the other was a minor under the age of 18. They were only identified by their initials, M.A. and A.M.

Their length of detention suggests that they committed the so-called offences more than a year earlier, when they were possibly around the age of 16.
Ruhollah Rezazadeh, the lawyer of the youngest boy (under 18), had appealed that he was too young to be executed and that the court should take into account his tender age (believed to be 16 or 17). But the Supreme Court in Tehran ordered him to be hanged.

Under the Iranian penal code, girls as young as nine and boys as young as 15 can be hanged.

Three other young gay Iranians are being hunted by the police, but they have gone into hiding and cannot be found. If caught, they will also face execution.

"Last August, a 16 year old girl, Atefeh Rajabi, was hanged for 'acts incompatible with chasity.'

http://www.outrage.org.uk/pressrelease.asp?ID=302


This is why us 'liberals' are so defensive of the barriers that the first amendment provides.

holy crap that sucks!

I'm spiritually superior to you and very close to god so I think you should die.

And this is why Iran is on my list of "Places That Need To Seriously Un-Fuck Themselves (PNSUFT)"

This is something the religious right needs to see.

I'd seriously like to talk directly to the people that decided this. See if they are just really angry or what. I;d also like to look into their head and see what kind of perversions they themselves have. Maybe they are so angry because they wanted to do boys really badly but didn't want to go against the law, so why shoudl these young kids get to do it... lets hang them, then they'll learn when they aren't alive to learn.

This is something the religious right needs to see.
Regardless of what you think of gay sex, I think we all share common ground in that this is just simply not right.

I said it in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=431839), and I'll say it again:

(...)I (have) already condemned the death penalty everywhere and for any crime, not only in Nigeria, and not only because it is an Islamic death sentence, and not only because it is a fellow gay man that is faced with it. Such feebleness of conviction is better suited for others, imnho.

The only types of sex that should be punishable by death are bestialty, pedophilia, and incest.

I said it in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=431839), and I'll say it again:

What the hell's wrong with the death penalty? Frankly, criminals are scum, and many of them deserve to die.

What the hell's wrong with the death penalty?

If you have to ask why killing someone is wrong, then I won't be able to explain it to you.

Frankly, criminals are scum, and many of them deserve to die.

Well one can only hope you outgrow such a simplistic view.

The only types of sex that should be punishable by death are bestialty, pedophilia, and incest.

Well, with incest, how close do you mean? I have a hot cousin. Closer than that, not so much, but man this cousin of mine....
kidding, kidding.

Well, with incest, how close do you mean? I have a hot cousin. Closer than that, not so much, but man this cousin of mine....
kidding, kidding.

First cousins, bad. Second cousins, okay.

What the hell's wrong with the death penalty? Frankly, criminals are scum, and many of them deserve to die.
Start a thread about it and watch the punches fly...

==================================
About the topic:
Bloody Hell. These things are just uncalled for. Girls as young as nine?

But I guess it is up to the Iranians to decide if they agree or not...as much as it may turn my stomach.

If you have to ask why killing someone is wrong, then I won't be able to explain it to you.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I don't know why leftists are so compassionate toward criminals. Sickly humanism at its worst.

First cousins, bad. Second cousins, okay.
How about first cousins in law? How about your brother-by-marriage?

More to the point, why there?

How about first cousins in law? How about your brother-by-marriage?

More to the point, why there?

As long as they're not blood relatives, and as long they're not underage or already married.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

An antiquated and historically non-functioning way of seeing the world. It leaves you blind in the end, to paraphrase Ghandi. Please, attempt to move on from 4000 years ago.

I don't know why leftists are so compassionate toward criminals. Sickly humanism at its worst.

I am compassionate with humans. Their innate value and right to life is not lessened by your labels.

I am compassionate with humans. Their innate value and right to life is not lessened by your labels.

People who commit crimes forfeit their right to compassion.

People who commit crimes forfeit their right to compassion.
Different thread please. Take it elsewhere.

People who commit crimes forfeit their right to compassion.
I've jaywalked. Does that mean I no longer am worthy of being human?

Pull the plank out of your own eye before criticizing the speck in another's.

An antiquated and historically non-functioning way of seeing the world. It leaves you blind in the end, to paraphrase Ghandi. Please, attempt to move on from 4000 years ago.



I am compassionate with humans. Their innate value and right to life is not lessened by your labels.


Right, because forward is always good, right? and something Ghandi said makes it fact. Everything in the past was wrong compared to today? holy crap you created a new ism....eraism.

and as to your second quote...though if that label is fetus then its alright to kill it.

People who commit crimes forfeit their right to compassion.

I have plenty to go around. So, no, they do not.

I've jaywalked. Does that mean I no longer am worthy of being human?

Pull the plank out of your own eye before criticizing the speck in another's.

I'm talking about real crime, i.e. robbery, homicide, rape, etc. Criminals should be punished in a manner befitting their crime, i.e., a robber should have his property and things confiscated, murderers should be put to death, etc.

I've jaywalked. Does that mean I no longer am worthy of being human?

Pull the plank out of your own eye before criticizing the speck in another's.

How many jaywalkers get executed annually in the world we live in today? Outside of Singapore.

Maybe you should realize there is a plank in your eye as well and you shouldnt criticize the criticize of the criticize. I love circular logic, you can just keep spinning it right back into their faces.

How many jaywalkers get executed annually in the world we live in today? Outside of Singapore.

He said crime. Jaywalking is a crime. Also note how I never said anything about execution.

Right, because forward is always good, right? and something Ghandi said makes it fact. Everything in the past was wrong compared to today? holy crap you created a new ism....eraism.

No. Notice how I was talking about "vengeful killing" and not "everything"? Assemble your tiring straw men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) elsewhere, please.

and as to your second quote...though if that label is fetus then its alright to kill it.

It is not my decision to make - the woman's body, the woman's choice. This is however not an abortion thread, so do not drag that here. I will not respond to it.

People who commit crimes forfeit their right to compassion.

Dude, I'm gay and I will not stand for that. I find this sickening. Those kids were only a year or two younger then me... it makes me so angry to think about it...

I'd seriously like to talk directly to the people that decided this. See if they are just really angry or what. I;d also like to look into their head and see what kind of perversions they themselves have. Maybe they are so angry because they wanted to do boys really badly but didn't want to go against the law, so why shoudl these young kids get to do it... lets hang them, then they'll learn when they aren't alive to learn.

Sumamba, I love you enough to say that you seriously - seriously don't want to talk directly to the people that decided this. You wouldn't want to be within the same time zone, let alone the same room, as the people that had anything to do with these murders.

Let Mesatecala have a chat with them instead. ;)

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I don't know why leftists are so compassionate toward criminals. Sickly humanism at its worst.

Well, in the US it may have something to do with the fact that our criminals usually become leftists once they go to prison if they were not already. Politicians figure that every individual can influence up to 4 voters each. Say your prison population in a given area is a 1000 bed unit, that is 4,000 votes they can affect even though they can't vote themselves at the time. Just another good reason to dislike liberals as far as I am concerned. Embrace the criminal and sell out your law abiding citizens.

People who commit crimes forfeit their right to compassion.

How Draconian of you!

Keep in mind, however, that a crime is in many places an term for the violation of arbitrary codes of morals and values in a society.

Some crimes are obvious. Do not kill, because you'd hurt the community by taking away it's manpower, do not steal because you'd hurt the community's economy.

Others are religiously based. Such as this law and punishment. Laws on homosexuality don't necessarily give anything to the community, or benefit it, but are rather are reflections on the morality of a people, which is notoriously fickle.

So, when a nation can outlaw one thing based on morality, they can outlaw enough things to turn humanity into slaves.

Especially with the widely-applying word of "crime," is this idea dangerous. A crime is any action that acts opposite of a law. Jaywalking is a crime. Are you saying that a jaywalker shouldn't have compassion?

Liverbreath']Well, in the US it may have something to do with the fact that our criminals usually become leftists once they go to prison if they were not already. Politicians figure that every individual can influence up to 4 voters each. Say your prison population in a given area is a 1000 bed unit, that is 4,000 votes they can affect even though they can't vote themselves at the time. Just another good reason to dislike liberals as far as I am concerned. Embrace the criminal and sell out your law abiding citizens.

What colossal horseshit. Back up your claim or back off, Bushbreath.

Especially with the widely-applying word of "crime," is this idea dangerous. A crime is any action that acts opposite of a law. Jaywalking is a crime. Are you saying that a jaywalker shouldn't have compassion?
He claims that jaywalking isn't a "real" crime. :rolleyes:

What colossal horseshit. Back up your claim or back off, Bushbreath.

You watch it.. I support Bush, but it doesn't mean I'm going to spew the crap he (liverbreath) did.

But I guess it is up to the Iranians to decide if they agree or not...as much as it may turn my stomach.
Because, you know, the mullahcracy allows them to do things like that.

LOLOLOL, sorry about that.LOLOL, cann't keep a straight face.


The End

He claims that jaywalking isn't a "real" crime. :rolleyes:

These sorts of people tend to be weak in their principle. Hence the crock of "real" crime. I wonder what "unreal crime" would be.

LOLOLOL, sorry about that.LOLOL, cann't keep a straight face.


The End

That's just sick. Those are two human beings you are talking about.

Different thread please. Take it elsewhere.Death penalty is what makes your article controversial....

What the hell's wrong with the death penalty? Frankly, criminals are scum, and many of them deserve to die.some criminals deserve to die...

but not all...do they?

He claims that jaywalking isn't a "real" crime. :rolleyes:

He needs to define a crime, then. Is a crime only when someone is injured? Well, then robbery isn't a crime if no one is injured. If it's only if a person's property is injured? Then a small bump on a town road between cars automatically excludes the two of them from compassion.

Another thing: EVERY SINGLE chapter of the Qur'an, from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas begins with the phrase: "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Ever Merciful." And in Islam, everything can be forgiven by Allah (except for disbelief in him) and this includes murder. So, I'm wondering what version of Islam Iran is preaching.

That's just sick. Those are two human beings you are talking about.
Durrrr... gheys arnt humna bensg.tehy et babeis!!!11!!one!!1

That'd better amuse you, because I killed half of my brain cells typing it.

You watch it.. I support Bush, but it doesn't mean I'm going to spew the crap he (liverbreath) did.

I watch what?

Did I ask who you support? I know who you support.

You watch it for once. I'm tired of seeing you tell posters on NS to 'watch it'.

Hey Mesatecala, watch Bush walk all over you and your boyfriend's rights while my country's leader is risking ex-communication to enshrine the rights of gays nationwide.

Liverbreath? Feh, I could care less.

The absolute lack of compassion I see coming from the rightwing here is making me a little ill.
Believe it or not, the legal system ISN'T PERFECT.
Some people convicted of crimes never did them in the first place. If you go around stereotyping every "criminal" in that way, you're going to brand a lot of people you probably don't want to.
Also, it's been shown through studies that areas with death penalties have higher rates of violent crime than areas without. Violence breeds violence.

...watch the punches fly...
Bring it on :D :D

The only types of sex that should be punishable by death are bestialty, pedophilia, and incest.how about necrofilia?

I watch what?

Did I ask who you support? I know who you support.

You watch it for once. I'm tired of seeing you tell posters on NS to 'watch it'.

Hey Mesatecala, watch Bush walk all over you and your boyfriend's rights while my country's leader is risking ex-communication to enshrine the rights of gays nationwide.

Liverbreath? Feh, I could care less.

You need to gain some sense in your argument and learn that gay people don't need to be liberals. Bush isn't walking all over me. Don't try to turn things against me, don't you ever do that and try to use me for your political games.

He needs to define a crime, then. Is a crime only when someone is injured? Well, then robbery isn't a crime if no one is injured. If it's only if a person's property is injured? Then a small bump on a town road between cars automatically excludes the two of them from compassion.

Another thing: EVERY SINGLE chapter of the Qur'an, from Al-Fatihah to Al-Nas begins with the phrase: "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Ever Merciful." And in Islam, everything can be forgiven by Allah (except for disbelief in him) and this includes murder. So, I'm wondering what version of Islam Iran is preaching.

I don't think it's a problem with the Islam. I think the issue is a few self-righteous blowhards with too much power. I may be using the wrong analogy sooo...if I am, I'll correct it, but I think this is the equivalent of people like Fred Phelps coming into absolute power.

I watch what?

Did I ask who you support? I know who you support.

You watch it for once. I'm tired of seeing you tell posters on NS to 'watch it'.

Hey Mesatecala, watch Bush walk all over you and your boyfriend's rights while my country's leader is risking ex-communication to enshrine the rights of gays nationwide.

Liverbreath? Feh, I could care less.

Fellow Canadian? Yeah. The Vatican has already released a paper condemning Canada for allowing gay marriage. Oooohhhh no! Not the Vatican! I don't know what we'll do without them... God knows they contribute so much to the Canadian way of life.
Hahahaha.

I've jaywalked.
one time....I drived just after drinking a beer...and smoked MJ

You need to gain some sense in your argument and learn that gay people don't need to be liberals. Bush isn't walking all over me. Don't try to turn things against me, don't you ever do that and try to use me for your political games.

Don't ever tell me to 'watch it' when I'm addressing SOMEONE FRICKIN' ELSE.

Clear enough even for you?

Don't ever tell me to 'watch it' when I'm addressing SOMEONE FRICKIN' ELSE.

Clear enough even for you?

Fine. Have your wish. You ever get confrontational to me again...

anyways, I'm very disgusted and I hope Iran can somehow be held accountable for this.

Outside of Singapore. Singapore judicial system is better than US system.

got your attention? good. :D

Singapore judicial system is better that US system.

How?

Fine. Have your wish. You ever get confrontational to me again...

anyways, I'm very disgusted and I hope Iran can somehow be held accountable for this.

Different country, different morals, different laws. Horrible story but thats the law of said land

Mesatecala, you want to discuss this any further, do it by TG. There is no need for continued bickering on the open forums. Although one of these days you're going to have to complete one of your vague threats of reprisal.

Let's say no more about this, shall we?

How?
you paint the walls....they cane your teenager ass.

thats how.

Once again, homosexuality is a sin, not a crime, and should not be punished by humans.

Have a narrow view of the gay thing and coincidentally I have a gay friend and I broke it down to him like this. Even the oldest and unedited bibles speak of the sin of wasting the seed. Gay people do that on a daily basis and are doomed to Hell. My children are not allowed to be sucked up in the new age tree hugging, pro femme load of happy horse pucky you are buying into. They know thier place, thier role, have a great work ethic and are being provided the education that I wish I hard. What's sick is this lay down and die for these crooks attitude your displaying so that the bad guy can be told, "Now was that nice? Please don't comit murder again.". WTH has happened to society? Grow up! I know if anyone of you was made to watch as a loved one was slowly killed your outlook about the statements you have made would change with every dieing scream.

Have a narrow view of the gay thing and coincidentally I have a gay friend and I broke it down to him like this. Even the oldest and unedited bibles speak of the sin of wasting the seed. Gay people do that on a daily basis and are doomed to Hell. My children are not allowed to be sucked up in the new age tree hugging, pro femme load of happy horse pucky you are buying into. They know thier place, thier role, have a great work ethic and are being provided the education that I wish I hard. What's sick is this lay down and die for these crooks attitude your displaying so that the bad guy can be told, "Now was that nice? Please don't comit murder again.". WTH has happened to society? Grow up! I know if anyone of you was made to watch as a loved one was slowly killed your outlook about the statements you have made would change with every dieing scream.

*puffs*

Good stuff?

*puffs*

Have a narrow view of the gay thing and coincidentally I have a gay friend and I broke it down to him like this. Even the oldest and unedited bibles speak of the sin of wasting the seed. Gay people do that on a daily basis and are doomed to Hell. My children are not allowed to be sucked up in the new age tree hugging, pro femme load of happy horse pucky you are buying into. They know thier place, thier role, have a great work ethic and are being provided the education that I wish I hard. What's sick is this lay down and die for these crooks attitude your displaying so that the bad guy can be told, "Now was that nice? Please don't comit murder again.". WTH has happened to society? Grow up! I know if anyone of you was made to watch as a loved one was slowly killed your outlook about the statements you have made would change with every dieing scream.

Are they sucked up into the whole hateful, holier-than-thou happy horse pucky?

As you say, the "oldest" versions of the Bible.
Haven't heard any bootstomping of gay people being mentioned since Jesus preached love and compassion for all.

*puffs*

Good stuff?

*puffs*

I wish, I just get a bit p/o'ed at this limp wristed crap.

How?
hint

http://www.nevtron.si/borderline/mikefay.gif

I wish, I just get a bit p/o'ed at this limp wristed crap.

And I'm sure you p/o people with your hard-nosed, I-know-what's-right-for-everyone attitude.
Your kind of attitude is exactly what forced my mother to try to live a "normal" life, because being gay was such a huge sin back in the day. She eventually freed herself from that closed-minded world, and I'm happy she did, because she's a much happier person for it.

Have a narrow view of the gay thing and coincidentally I have a gay friend and I broke it down to him like this. Even the oldest and unedited bibles speak of the sin of wasting the seed. Gay people do that on a daily basis and are doomed to Hell. My children are not allowed to be sucked up in the new age tree hugging, pro femme load of happy horse pucky you are buying into. They know thier place, thier role, have a great work ethic and are being provided the education that I wish I hard. What's sick is this lay down and die for these crooks attitude your displaying so that the bad guy can be told, "Now was that nice? Please don't comit murder again.". WTH has happened to society? Grow up! I know if anyone of you was made to watch as a loved one was slowly killed your outlook about the statements you have made would change with every dieing scream.

If you were my friend, and you 'broke it down' to me like that, I'd kick you out of the car.

I know if anyone of you was made to watch as a loved one was slowly killed your outlook about the statements you have made would change with every dieing scream.
No. You don't. Not everyone lets emotion get in the way of reality. Areas without the death penalty have lower rates of violent crime. That is a fact.

Death is the easy way out. It's not a punishment. Oblivion or being made to rot for the rest of their lives, locked away from society. I'd choose the oblivion. Isolation is one of the worst punishments any social entity can suffer. Think about it. Which one of us wants the criminal to get off light? Not I. Not I.

On an aside, it's nice how you assume that we would all just sit and watch a loved one get killed. We'd actually do something about it.

Oh sick! Girls as young as NINE?! Guys as young as FIFTEEN?! :mad: I can't beleive these people are so insane. I wonder is you asked these sick and twisted people- at fifteen or nine years old- if they would like to die. bet not.

Have a narrow view of the gay thing and coincidentally I have a gay friend and I broke it down to him like this. Even the oldest and unedited bibles speak of the sin of wasting the seed. Gay people do that on a daily basis and are doomed to Hell. My children are not allowed to be sucked up in the new age tree hugging, pro femme load of happy horse pucky you are buying into. They know thier place, thier role, have a great work ethic and are being provided the education that I wish I hard. What's sick is this lay down and die for these crooks attitude your displaying so that the bad guy can be told, "Now was that nice? Please don't comit murder again.". WTH has happened to society? Grow up! I know if anyone of you was made to watch as a loved one was slowly killed your outlook about the statements you have made would change with every dieing scream.

No they aren't. Prove your god and your damn religion. Your religious fanaticism is wrong. Gay people are just as much of human beings as anyone else. And for those who said Iran has different laws.. no not acceptable. They VERY WELL CAN change. Anyone can change.

I'm not new age, tree hugging nor am I pro femme. They know their place? No. I'm sorry we won't be treated as second class citizens, because of despicable people as yourself.

Singapore judicial system is better than US system.
Seconded.

As you say, the "oldest" versions of the Bible.
Haven't heard any bootstomping of gay people being mentioned since Jesus preached love and compassion for all.

I have never beaten or embarassed a gay person. I let them know where they stand with me and they can respect or reject my view and though I cann't sympathize with thier personal probs in the gay sence I bear no ill will. I only have 1 freind that is gay and his boyfriend hates me but he see's my point of view and gives me that latitude of my POV as he has his POV and we get along fine. Besides. judgement is that of GOD and not me, I wish gays well thoughout thier life but only the day of reaconing will tell.

I have never beaten or embarassed a gay person. I let them know where they stand with me and they can respect or reject my view and though I cann't sympathize with thier personal probs in the gay sence I bear no ill will. I only have 1 freind that is gay and his boyfriend hates me but he see's my point of view and gives me that latitude of my POV as he has his POV and we get along fine. Besides. judgement is that of GOD and not me, I wish gays well thoughout thier life but only the day of reaconing will tell.

You have no right to treat other people as second rate citizens. Your point of view if illogical and not backed up. I wonder how the heck your gay friend can ever be your friend to begin with.. and also prove god for me in the mean time. I'm tired of hearing about this human invented rhetoric.

day of reaconing? what is that?

I have never beaten or embarassed a gay person. I let them know where they stand with me and they can respect or reject my view and though I cann't sympathize with thier personal probs in the gay sence I bear no ill will. I only have 1 freind that is gay and his boyfriend hates me but he see's my point of view and gives me that latitude of my POV as he has his POV and we get along fine. Besides. judgement is that of GOD and not me, I wish gays well thoughout thier life but only the day of reaconing will tell.

By "putting people in their place" and throwing around the idle, ominous statements about days of reckoning, you are, in a way, judging...

You have no right to treat other people as second rate citizens. Your point of view if illogical and not backed up. I wonder how the heck your gay friend can ever be your friend to begin with.. and also prove god for me in the mean time. I'm tired of hearing about this human invented rhetoric.

day of reaconing? what is that?


That day we all face sometime down the line when we stand before our maker and face our lifes wrong's. I got alot to atone for. I don't even deny it.

That day we all face sometime down the line when we stand before our maker and face our lifes wrong's. I got alot to atone for. I don't even deny it.

Well asides from the obvious typo, I didn't know what you are talking about. And you can't prove the maker, let alone such a day exists.

Well asides from the obvious typo, I didn't know what you are talking about. And you can't prove the maker, let alone such a day exists.

So your saying you can live forever? And you think I'm crazy,lol. Hell, I know I'm gonna kick the bucket sooner or later. I'm just prepared to take the responsibility when I hit the other side.

And typo chasing is soooooooo lame. Find something of a real issue to address.

So your saying you can live forever? And you think I'm crazy,lol. Hell, I know I'm gonna kick the bucket sooner or later. I'm just prepared to take the responsibility when I hit the other side.

And typo chasing is soooooooo lame. Find something of a real issue to address.

Nope. I'm existentialist atheist actually. In fact I accept death more easily then christians who fear it. I know I'm going to die and I accepted that a long time ago. But as an existentialist I think I should live my life to the fullest and not worry myself to death (no pun) about some imaginary higher being.

So your saying you can live forever? And you think I'm crazy,lol. Hell, I know I'm gonna kick the bucket sooner or later. I'm just prepared to take the responsibility when I hit the other side.

That has got to be the shittiest strawman of all time. Newflash: Not everyone believes in an afterlife.

If a God will condemn a man because he doesn't agree with him, he is no god of mine.

If a god will condemn a man because of what he likes to do privately, he is no god of mine.

If a god will condemn a man because he exercises his right, which is GODGIVEN, to disagree and to question, he is no god of mine.

If a god will condemn a man because he loves another man, simply for that reason, and even if that man has done no wrong to his fellow man, he is no god of mine.

What I have never gotten about God in the context that these anti-homosexuality religious zealots use: If god is merciful, why does he condemn those who do no other crime than to love another man? If he is all-powerful, why does he allow these men to do this, if it angers him so?

Every time I am convinced that Religion (In this case Christianity) can make people good and kind to their fellow man, I see two of these backward, Medieval religious zealots arising and taking up the cross for something with should have died out with the Age of Enlightenment.

Yet Jesus says that we should love our fellow man. The only sign that will ever be given to me that god exists, and that I will take for truth, is if the Day of Judgement comes, and these religious zealots are sent to the depths of hell for their unquestioning "loyalty" to the Lord. Think about it: God gives you the most powerful reasoning ability of all the animals, and yet you squander it reading these words on a book, questioning nothing, and merely carry out word for word what it says.

Ladies and gentlemen, THAT should be the greatest insult to God.

It could just be me, but I've always perceived "God" as a being that was above human tendencies such as the need for revenge and for people to 'get theirs'.

What I have never gotten about God in the context that these anti-homosexuality religious zealots use: If god is merciful, why does he condemn those who do no other crime than to love another man? If he is all-powerful, why does he allow these men to do this, if it angers him so?

Every time I am convinced that Religion (In this case Christianity) can make people good and kind to their fellow man, I see two of these backward, Medieval religious zealots arising and taking up the cross for something with should have died out with the Age of Enlightenment.

Yet Jesus says that we should love our fellow man. The only sign that will ever be given to me that god exists, and that I will take for truth, is if the Day of Judgement comes, and these religious zealots are sent to the depths of hell for their unquestioning "loyalty" to the Lord. Think about it: God gives you the most powerful reasoning ability of all the animals, and yet you squander it reading these words on a book, questioning nothing, and merely carry out word for word what it says.

Ladies and gentlemen, THAT should be the greatest insult to God.


Wow.. I Really REALLY like that post. Well said! :)

The death penalty may be a little off-topic for this thread, but this whole thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere, so I'll post regardless.

I just started playing NationStates, and I hope to just have some light-hearted fun, and I know it's a mistake for me to get involved in this heavy philosophical stuff you guys like to discuss, but I'm doing it anyways:

Areas without the death penalty have lower rates of violent crime. That is a fact.

Where is your proof for that statement?

It may just be that I'm a noob to philosophy and politics and all that jazz (and I certainly am one), but that "fact" of yours is not common knowledge to me. I would like you to provide some proof to back it up. You can spout all the opinions you want in a thread like this, but once you claim something is a fact, the proof better be apparent.

Please make some sort of reference to the study you are citing so that we may examine it and draw our own conclusions based on the legitimacy of the study.

I will check back to see if anything is provided, but I do not see myself posting further in this thread.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167

Cites dozens of papers that show that the death penalty does not deter violent crime.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=167

Cites dozens of papers that show that the death penalty does not deter violent crime.

That can easily be countered by pro-death penalty sites. Statistics are skewed heavily by both sides. I'm for the death penalty in cases of 1st degree murder, but that is it.

I will say this only once: INVADE, NOW!!!!

That can easily be countered by pro-death penalty sites. Statistics are skewed heavily by both sides. I'm for the death penalty in cases of 1st degree murder, but that is it.
I think Rape should be on the list.

Well I'm outie for the night. To those that are. Be as gay as you want, just hide it in Iran. Not the best idea in the world right now. I served my country so you could have that right. I also have my beliefs too. If you want respect for your views, you need to also respect the views of others even if thier view conflicts with yours. I do have respect for all the views displayed as some people with backbones spoke thier minds. For everyone else Have a Good night.

I will say this only once: INVADE, NOW!!!!

I wouldn't try that. The fundamentalist Islamic backlash would be massive, being as Iran is almost the Shi'a capitol of the world.

Well I'm outie for the night. To those that are. Be as gay as you want, just hide it in Iran. Not the best idea in the world right now. I served my country so you could have that right. I also have my beliefs too. If you want respect for your views, you need to also respect the views of others even if thier view conflicts with yours. I do have respect for all the views displayed as some people with backbones spoke thier minds. For everyone else Have a Good night.

You seem to think that gay people are second class citizens in the US. You can have your beliefs, but in no way can you act on reducing the rights of gay people.

I wouldn't try that.Dont pay attention to Eschenbach...he is an stupid Troll.

You seem to think that gay people are second class citizens in the US. You can have your beliefs, but in no way can you act on reducing the rights of gay people.

Said the Bushite! Hah.

Said the Bushite! Hah.

Gay people don't have to be liberals. I'm not even that much pro-bush... i support him most of the time, but not all the time.

If you have to ask why killing someone is wrong, then I won't be able to explain it to you.
Well one can only hope you outgrow such a simplistic view.

OK, Fass, mark this day in your diary. I agree with you totally. It is not within our scope of knowledge, understanding, or responsibility to determine the hour and manor of another's death. To take someone's life for a crime is no more noble or honorable than the person who murders another.

This is something the religious right needs to see.

I have been labeled a member of the religious right. Watch your labels and perceived stereotypes.

Said the Bushite! Hah.

I give Bush credit for trying to stomp on freedoms all around the board, instead of just with Gays. (See PATRIOT Act*, PATRIOT Act II**)

*http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

**http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/patriot2draft.html

That can easily be countered by pro-death penalty sites. Statistics are skewed heavily by both sides. I'm for the death penalty in cases of 1st degree murder, but that is it.
Want me to pull up the next dozen sites picked out by Google? It's bloody difficult to skew a freaking scientific study, especially if you give a damn citation.

Gay people don't have to be liberals. I'm not even that much pro-bush... i support him most of the time, but not all the time.

There's "not being a liberal," and then there's being a quisling. A gay person supporting Bush, despite him spitting you in the face and using you as a scare tactic to rouse his conservative base, definitely starts to fall into the latter category.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I don't know why leftists are so compassionate toward criminals. Sickly humanism at its worst.

"an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" was referring to monetary reimbursement for personal injury. It had nothing to do with executing criminals.

Want me to pull up the next dozen sites picked out by Google? It's bloody difficult to skew a freaking scientific study, especially if you give a damn citation.

Nothing's propaganda-proof. Scientific studies can be "influenced" and sources and citations can be biased. Not disagreeing with you, I'm anti-death penalty myself. I'm just saying that anything can be..well.."reappropriated for unintended use."

There's "not being a liberal," and then there's being a quisling. A gay person supporting Bush, despite him spitting you in the face and using you as a scare tactic to rouse his conservative base, definitely starts to fall into the latter category.

That post is a scare tactic itself. A little emotionally driven attack because I don't agree with your sub-standard point of views.. just worthless dribble really...

OK, Fass, mark this day in your diary. I agree with you totally.

Oh, the singularity! :eek:

;)

OK, Fass, mark this day in your diary.....hey Zooke... welcome back :)

What a gay topic.

That post is a scare tactic itself.

No, unfortunately it's the truth. While the truth may scare you, it's not a scare tactic.

A little emotionally driven attack because I don't agree with your sub-standard point of views..

Yes, because Bush has been such a supporter of gay rights. :rolleyes: Really, the only "sub-standard" thing seems to be your vision.

just worthless dribble really...

You need to get a new line, cause that "worthless dribble" schtick is getting old. I guess being conservative can rob even a gay person of wittyness and sense of esprit.

No, unfortunately it's the truth. While the truth may scare you, it's not a scare tactic.



Yes, because has been such a supporter of gay rights. :rolleyes: Really, the only "sub-standard" thing seems to be your vision.

Pshaw.

Nope this is very much a scare tactic by someone who can't accept that I have views different then you. I go with the guy I can agree with at least 3 out of 4 times.

You need to get a new line and/or schtick, cause that "worthless dribble" is getting old. I guess being conservative can rob even a gay man of wittyness and sense of esprit.

You are the one who is getting rather old.. the same old argument of BS!

You also don't know me. You don't know who I am and you can't tell anything about my wittyness and character.

hey Zooke... welcome back :)
Thank you. I've been around lurking now and then. But things have settled down around here...one of these days I'll start a thread about what has been happening...and I've healed up enough from my wreck to sit upright for more than a few minutes at a time. Good to be back!!

That post is a scare tactic itself. A little emotionally driven attack because I don't agree with your sub-standard point of views.. just worthless dribble really...

That's no more of a scare tactic and emotional post than suggesting to a brown-nose that he shouldn't hang around jerks because he keeps on getting beat up. If anything, it's a tad too late to be scared.

I'm not even homosexual and I know that Bush isn't exactly in a pact of friendship with homosexuals.

That's no more of a scare tactic and emotional post than suggesting to a brown-nose that he shouldn't hang around jerks because he keeps on getting beat up. If anything, it's a tad too late to be scared.

I'm not even homosexual and I know that Bush isn't exactly in a pact of friendship with homosexuals.

Well I'm sorry but I'm not going with the democrats when I hardly ever agree wtih them on anything. I won't do it.

Pshaw.

Nope this is very much a scare tactic by someone who can't accept that I have views different then you. I go with the guy I can agree with at least 3 out of 4 times.

I accept your views. That does not mean that I am not going to tell you that your views make you a quisling. You may agree with him "3 out of four times," but the 4th time he is shitting all over you and people who are like you. Don't expect sympathy from the people you're helping him poo on.

You are the one who is getting rather old.. the same old argument of BS!

Even here, the lack of expression is evident; the contraction of bullshit to "BS" almost coquettish in its puritanism. The conservatives have certainly done a good one on you, I see!

You also don't know me. You don't know who I am and you can't tell anything about my wittyness and character.

I don't need to know you. Your type isn't rare - you most certainly aren't the first gay person to lick the hand that beats you.

Europe is the only world region that doesn't have death penalty.

No member state of the Council of Europe (currently over 40 countries, including amny in Asia, former USSR reopublics, that were allowed to join, because USSR was a member) can have a death penalty.

Of course, there are other countries that do not have it, such as "Scandinavia of the Americas" north of the 49th parallel. -- The USA being "the Middle East of the Americas" :-)))

You also don't know me.
"Getting to knowww you, getting to know aaall about you..."
You don't know who I am and you can't tell anything about my wittyness and character.
So are you posting as a RolePlay character, then?

I accept your views. That does not mean that I am not going to tell you that your views make you a quisling. You may agree with him "3 out of four times," but the 4th time he is shitting all over you and people who are like you. Don't expect sympathy from the people you're helping him poo on.


Again I don't agree and look.. I don't quite care what you think or want to believe about the guy. What you think isn't quite important to me at all because I don't believe in the same thing as you.

Even here, the lack of expression is evident; the contraction of bullshit to "BS" almost coquettish in its puritanism. The conservatives have certainly done a good one on you, I see!

I'm tired of this. Grow up. I use contractions because I don't want to type up the whole thing. So next time pay attention. I'm not even a fucking conservative. So please spare me.

I don't need to know you. Your type isn't rare - you most certainly aren't the first gay person to lick the hand that beats you.

What a pile of shit. That's the most crappy strawman attack I've seen on here as of yet.

Go formulate an argument. It might actually help you.

You think that theocracies are good things?


http://www.outrage.org.uk/pressrelease.asp?ID=302


This is why us 'liberals' are so defensive of the barriers that the first amendment provides.

I don't care about Iran or its internal affairs. Please, direct your focus on the Patriot Act or something more revelent to our intrests.

Well I'm sorry but I'm not going with the democrats when I hardly ever agree wtih them on anything. I won't do it.
Then go for some third party. Granted, very few of them support gay rights, but what the hell. Maybe you'll find something.

Off the top of my head, the following parties support gay rights.
The Green Party - Somewhat Left-wing, liberal
The Libertarian Party - Very Right-wing, very liberal

Take your pick.

Well I'm sorry but I'm not going with the democrats when I hardly ever agree wtih them on anything. I won't do it.

Ok, so let me get this straight.

There's one group. The leader of this group (i.e., El Presidente) is notorious for being a die-hard or at least dedicated Christian. Christianity is notorious, especially the type of Christianity he espouses, for being anti-homosexual.

He speaks out against homosexual rights and doesn't budge on giving them the right to marry each other, even though it could be done secularly by a judge.

Then, there's this other group. You just don't agree with them. You stay with the group that refuses to give you rights of everyone else because you'd rather be against the group you disagree with?

I used to be very political, then I realised something. Politics is NOT based on ideas and trying to make the world better, sadly enough. Politics is joining the group that would be best for you. And anyone who would say that the group that routinely denies them rights available to all Americans is in their interest better have all of Iran hunting them.

Then go for some third party. Granted, very few of them support gay rights, but what the hell. Maybe you'll find something.

Off the top of my head, the following parties support gay rights.
The Green Party - Somewhat Left-wing, liberal
The Libertarian Party - Very Right-wing, very liberal

Take your pick.

Eww the green party.. never ever say that to me, ever. And the Libertarian party is not my kind of party... I disagree with them a bit too much.. they aren't very right wing at all.

I used to be very political, then I realised something. Politics is NOT based on ideas and trying to make the world better, sadly enough. Politics is joining the group that would be best for you. And anyone who would say that the group that routinely denies them rights available to all Americans is in their interest better have all of Iran hunting them.

Well... http://www.logcabin.org

I picked something in the middle ground...

So next time pay attention. I'm not even a fucking conservative. So please spare me.

So why vote for Bush? He's almost as conservative as they get.

Help us out here. What policies of his do you agree with, anyways?

So are you posting as a RolePlay character, then?

http://gprime.net/video.php/magicmissile

So why vote for Bush? He's almost as conservative as they get.

Help us out here. What policies of his do you agree with, anyways?

Eh well I'm not going to talk about this anymore as it is off topic. Read other threads I posted in. I'm going to go out in a bit..

Well... http://www.logcabin.org

I picked something in the middle ground...

All the more power to you, then. I just wouldn't put to much confidence in the Republican party, if I were you.

I disagree with them a bit too much.. they aren't very right wing at all.
Aren't very right-wing at all? They're only slightly to the left of Ayn freakin' Rand!

Are you confusing conservative with right-wing?

Again I don't agree and look.. I don't quite care what you think or want to believe about the guy. What you think isn't quite important to me at all because I don't believe in the same thing as you.

Yes, I can understand that you need to believe in something other than the truth to live with supporting Bush. Don't expect the world to play along with the delusion, though.

I'm tired of this. Grow up. I use contractions because I don't want to type up the whole thing. So next time pay attention. I'm not even a fucking conservative. So please spare me.

Yeah, right. Oh, how you squirm in your backtracking. Slither, almost.

What a pile of shit. That's the most crappy strawman attack I've seen on here as of yet.

Obviously you don't know what a straw man even is.

Go formulate an argument. It might actually help you.

I'm not the one who so clearly needs help.

The libertarian is incredibly conservative. They want to preserve the original liberties and text of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, if I remember correctly.

Left wing and right wing and liberal and conservative have little to do with each other it seems.

Liberal: Simply means that they want to change the status quo and not adhere as much to tradition.

Conservative: Wants to adhere to tradition and how things were done before.

I can't even DEFINE left wing and right wing. It differs from person to person.

Can we stop the insults please and get back on topic.

Sorry I'm a bit slow on the topic. Left for a while. :P

Want me to pull up the next dozen sites picked out by Google? It's bloody difficult to skew a freaking scientific study, especially if you give a damn citation.

Actually, it's really easily done. That's why some areas require that authors of studies indicate who paid them to do the study. You can bias numbers to say just about anything you want them to say. I'm in a research program. I've talked to people who do research for a living. One guy crunched some numbers, gave a report, and the agency said they didn't like it. He did it again, with the same result. And again. Finally he asked, "What do YOU want the numbers to say?" And, sadly, that's how science goes sometimes.

I know this would probably be the rough equivilant of wandering into a firefight between two large armies, but let's calm down, both Mesatecala and Fass. You two both seem to be flinging insults at each other like nothing else I've ever seen.

It doesn't matter if one of them needs psychiatric therapy, or has no wit, or whatever, but let's just get back to an intelligent discussion of the situation, whatever it seems to be at the moment, and try and steer away from personal insults.

I know this would probably be the rough equivilant of wandering into a firefight between two large armies, but let's calm down, both Mesatecala and Fass. You two both seem to be flinging insults at each other like nothing else I've ever seen.

It doesn't matter if one of them needs psychiatric therapy, or has no wit, or whatever, but let's just get back to an intelligent discussion of the situation, whatever it seems to be at the moment, and try and steer away from personal insults.

Yea.. I'm really sorry about throwing any insults...

Delusion? why don't you get over your delusions?

'Cause I have none to get over. You'd don't need to be Dionne Warwick to see what stance Bush has on gay people, and how he steps on them. You just like being stepped on, and are trying to fool yourself that it's good for you.

Wrong again. You should be the one who should get a kick in the head so you can get your thoughts back in order. You are the snake.

Threatening violence. As I said, the right-wing conservatives in the US have certainly done a good one on you.

Yep.

Yet you commit such an error at invoking it. Dissonance, yet again.

You do need help and you need it fast.

I'm not the one cosying up to massah.

I don't care about Iran or its internal affairs. Please, direct your focus on the Patriot Act or something more revelent to our intrests.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Get a load of this! They think the only ones who talk on the channel are Americans! Ohhhhh the superiority of the "greatest nation on earth." Believe it or not, there are others who talk on these channels too... if it's okay. You're not quite so big as to stomp on the whole world's right to chat.
Hahaha. Funny. :)

I'm not a conservative
Then why the hell don't you support a party that isn't conservative?

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Get a load of this! They think the only ones who talk on the channel are Americans! Ohhhhh the superiority of the "greatest nation on earth." Believe it or not, there are others who talk on these channels too... if it's okay. You're not quite so big as to stomp on the whole world's right to chat.
Hahaha. Funny. :)

There are..other nations..on Earth..besides the United States? Ah, crap!

(Sarcasm..Sarcasm! SARCASM! SARCASM! Don't rip me apart!)

Actually, it's really easily done. That's why some areas require that authors of studies indicate who paid them to do the study. You can bias numbers to say just about anything you want them to say. I'm in a research program. I've talked to people who do research for a living. One guy crunched some numbers, gave a report, and the agency said they didn't like it. He did it again, with the same result. And again. Finally he asked, "What do YOU want the numbers to say?" And, sadly, that's how science goes sometimes.
That's why the site links to independent studies.

I don't care about Iran or its internal affairs. Please, direct your focus on the Patriot Act or something more revelent to our intrests.
even if he looks confused...and his message is out of place (this forum is not exclusively American)

but...His bottom line is on target...

Americans should not interfere with Iran Internal Laws.

Oh sure... we can bitch ad-nauseum...but people suggesting that we should "Invade them and Impose US Democracy on them"...is what made US fuck-it-al-up in Iraq.

Then why the hell don't you support a party that isn't conservative?

Same reason democrats voted for Regan?

Eww the green party.. never ever say that to me, ever. And the Libertarian party is not my kind of party... I disagree with them a bit too much.. they aren't very right wing at all.
The LP isn't right wing? News to me.

That's why the site links to independent studies.

I didn't notice that... didn't actually click the link. Was just making a comment in general about their comment wondering how scientific studies could be skewed. :)

There are..other nations..on Earth..besides the United States? Ah, crap!

(Sarcasm..Sarcasm! SARCASM! SARCASM! Don't rip me apart!)

Oh, dear, you know that there is a whole planet out there. The jig is up! ;)

Same reason democrats voted for Regan?
He's a spineless fool?

He's a spineless fool?

Okay, that actually made me laugh out loud. I still refuse to use "lol," though!

He's a spineless fool?

Or a brilliant genius. Find out next time on.....

Oh, dear, you know that there is a whole planet out there. The jig is up! ;)

A whole planet out there? Why don't we declare war on it? Or at least bomb it.

I refuse to believe that there is anything other than the US, by the way. Mommy always said that there were sea monsters at the other end of the ocean!

(Again: sarcasm warning, for the slower portion of our viewers tonight.)

I don't care about Iran or its internal affairs. Please, direct your focus on the Patriot Act or something more revelent to our intrests.
even if he looks confused...and his message is geographically wrong (this forum is not exclusively American)

but...His bottom line is right-On

Americans should not interfere with Iran Internal Laws.

Oh sure... we can talk...we should protest...we do bitch...ad-nauseum...but
its dumb to suggest that we should "Invade them and Impose US Democracy on them"...that line of action is what created the Iraq mess.

Is anyone else depressed that a thread on human rights violations in Iran is producing less exciting discussion than the thread on Time Travel?

I personally think this thread has de-railed like an Amtrak train.

A whole planet out there? Why don't we declare war on it? Or at least bomb it.

I refuse to believe that there is anything other than the US, by the way. Mommy always said that there were sea monsters at the other end of the ocean!

Oh, but there is. Look! (http://www.humourme.co.nz/jokes/joke_display.asp?id=39)

/All still in good jest.

I personally think this thread has de-railed like an Amtrak train.

It happens. It'll pick up again when people in new time zones start waking up. Europe in a few hours, at least... I really need to go to bed!

Is anyone else depressed that a thread on human rights violations in Iran is producing less exciting discussion than the thread on Time Travel?

I personally think this thread has de-railed like an Amtrak train.

That is assuming that Amtrak actually gets its trains on tracks. :rolleyes:

Bumping this.

even if he looks confused...and his message is geographically wrong (this forum is not exclusively American)

but...His bottom line is right-On

Americans should not interfere with Iran Internal Laws.
Germany, circa 1939.

It doesnt worry me what they do in Iran.
Its their country, leave them and their laws alone, what may be wrong to you, could be right for them, good and evil is subjective for different cultures.

Im center right and Im outraged as any right person would be. Liberal or Conservative. Now are the human rights abuses going to be quoted this time before we launch the invasion? I hope so.

Im center right and Im outraged as any right person would be. Liberal or Conservative. Now are the human rights abuses going to be quoted this time before we launch the invasion? I hope so.

Its their laws, you have no right to interfere with them.

Its their laws, you have no right to interfere with them.

crimes against humanity. Ever hear of this concept? Any government can make laws. If another cultural finds it absolutely offensive and are joined by other cultures that find it just as offensive then they can decide to protect the citizens of that country from its own government. This is where armed intervention becomes needed if that government doesnt stop killing its citizens for being themselves. So I do and expect my government to put an end to this.

crimes against humanity. Ever hear of this concept? Any government can make laws. If another cultural finds it absolutely offensive and are joined by other cultures that find it just as offensive then they can decide to protect the citizens of that country from its own government. This is where armed intervention becomes needed if that government doesnt stop killing its citizens for being themselves. So I do and expect my government to put an end to this.

Harhar! No ones going to go to war over abunch of homos. :) ;)

Harhar! No ones going to go to war over abunch of homos. :) ;)
*frowns and puts gun down*

Harhar! No ones going to go to war over abunch of homos. :) ;)

Oh what ignorance and bigotry.

crimes against humanity. Ever hear of this concept? Any government can make laws. If another cultural finds it absolutely offensive and are joined by other cultures that find it just as offensive then they can decide to protect the citizens of that country from its own government. This is where armed intervention becomes needed if that government doesnt stop killing its citizens for being themselves. So I do and expect my government to put an end to this.Im sure most in the World find Guantanamo more than "Offensive"...

Oh what ignorance and bigotry.

Not really. :)

*frowns and puts gun down*
harhar! Thats right.

Not really. :)

Yes really. You defended a country committing horrid human rights abuses.

Yes really. You defended a country committing horrid human rights abuses.Then again...most NS posters have done just that.

..Including you Mesatecala.

Yes really. You defended a country committing horrid human rights abuses.

I defend their right to do what they like in their own country.

Then again...most NS posters have done just that.

..Including you Mesatecala.

Nope. So please correct yourself and apologize to me.

No, whitepowers, they do not have a right to execute innocent people.

Nope. So please correct yourself and apologize to me.
No, whitepowers, they do not have a right to execute innocent people.

Innocent in your eyes, guilty in theirs.
Its their country not yours.

Innocent in your eyes, guilty in theirs.
Its their country not yours.

I don't give a damn. They did nothing wrong. I'm also not an ignorant isolationist as yourself.

Yay! More personal attacks...
:rolleyes:

I don't give a damn. They did nothing wrong. I'm also not an ignorant isolationist as yourself.

Im not an Isolationist or ignorant, I believe we shouldnt interfere with their lifestyle, as its their country, not ours, what right do you have to inflict your beliefs of whats wrong and right on them?

Im not an Isolationist or ignorant, I believe we shouldnt interfere with their lifestyle, as its their country, not ours, what right do you have to inflict your beliefs of whats wrong and right on them?
A very valid point. Unless they're hacking to bits white Christians we must look the other way. :rolleyes:

A very valid point. Unless they're hacking to bits white Christians we must look the other way. :rolleyes:

True, that would be provacative.

While christians may defenately preach against sexual immorality of any kind, we certainly don't feel that death is the solution or punishment.

When religion gets too legalistic this is what happans.

God rest his soul.

True, that would be provacative.

Yeah, *that* would be. But not if they're doing what you secretly want to do as well right?

:sniper: You do realise that White Christians, the majority of my age (25) are past the conservative screwtards of the far right wing. We fully believe our faith and want to see it spread, but none of us want death or pain to be an answer to sin. It's more important to learn to love strangers and friends alike. If you're close to someone and you disagree with something they do you can voice that. Kindly and within reason. Sometimes that voice can be loud, sometimes quiet. But Love, the love we profess to care to share with the world and be led by, doesn't let sin come between humanity.

one thing you can't argue... to an extent... is that non uber zealous christians... most of us... would rather talk about things than hang a person.

Yeah, *that* would be. But not if they're doing what you secretly want to do as well right?

And whats that?

Yes really. You defended a country committing horrid human rights abuses.Then again...most NS posters have done just that.

..Including you Mesatecala.

Nope. Yes, you have...

You have defended The Bush administration several times...and Bush is committing human right abuses in Guantanamo...and then some...

So please correct yourself and apologize to me.HAHAHAHAhehe...

I will apologize to you the day you pull a Chimp out of your ass.

You have defended The Bush administration several times...and Bush is committing human right abuses in Guantanamo...and then some..

bush is committing human rights abuses? He's actually down there committing human rights abuses?

But to the point, you're wrong and the US is prosecuting those who do break the law.

You need to shut up.

I will apologize to you the day you pull a Chimp out of your ass.
I reckon he'll send you a video of him doing just that. He doesn't back off any claim whatsoever.... ;)

crimes against humanity. Ever hear of this concept? Any government can make laws. If another cultural finds it absolutely offensive and are joined by other cultures that find it just as offensive then they can decide to protect the citizens of that country from its own government. ...
The US withdrew from the ICC, so I cannot think what international legal mechanism America can use in order to make execution of homosexuals one of the crimes against humanity (it isn't, for now). BTW, I doubt that American conservators will be chuffed with such legal innovation.

Keeping my mouth shut and viewing the banter.

bush is committing human rights abuses? He's actually down there committing human rights abuses?

But to the point, you're wrong and the US is prosecuting those who do break the law.

You need to shut up.Yes the US is responsible for Human Right abuses in Guantanamo...and in other parts of the world...and Bush is one of the Persons Responsible...

and You are defending his Administration...

Yes really. You defended a country committing human rights abuses.

Yes really. Mesatecala, You defended a country committing human rights abuses.

BTW when are you going to send me the Chimp's video? :D

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I don't know why leftists are so compassionate toward criminals. Sickly humanism at its worst.

Then we would live in a world of blind and toothless people.

Regards,

JMayo

Yes the US is responsible for Human Right abuses in Guantanamo...and in other parts of the world...and Bush is one of the Persons Responsible...

Nope. You are wrong. The adminstration is not responsible for any human rights abuses. Those who do wrong-doing are being prosecuted. You can stop with your anti-american dribble.

Democrats. :rolleyes:

Then we would live in a world of blind and toothless people.

Regards,

JMayo

Two words here, "Helper monkey." It would be sooooo worth it.

Nope. You are wrong. The adminstration is not responsible for any human rights abuses.

Democrats. :rolleyes:just like Reagan was not responsible for IranGate. [sarcasm]

The adminstration is not responsible for any human rights abuses. Those who do wrong-doing are being prosecuted.
You're holding on to any straw you can get, don't you.

What about Rumsfeld declaring that harsher interrogation methods are justified and that the Geneva Convention doesn't count anymore?

You're holding on to any straw you can get, don't you.

What about Rumsfeld declaring that harsher interrogation methods are justified and that the Geneva Convention doesn't count anymore?

harsher interrogation methods are justified. And I believe that too. I don't think terrorists should get away with holding information.

You are the one full of strawmans.

What the hell's wrong with the death penalty? Frankly, criminals are scum, and many of them deserve to die.


"Criminal" is such a broad term. Why not narrow it down to "murderers"?

I mean, why would someone who stole a car or committed bank fraud need to be KILLED? Jeez...

harsher interrogation methods are justified.
But they are human rights abuses nontheless, no?

But they are human rights abuses nontheless, no?

No they aren't. I think you are having a bit of a difficulty understanding english and how words are used.

But they are human rights abuses nontheless, no?


"Harsh" interrogation methods, without violating human rights, are indeed possible and practical. Confinement and discomfort (making sure it causes no permanent damage) are not violations of human rights.

No they aren't.
You are using Ad Hominems yet again.
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
Some quotes from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

etc etc....

You are using Ad Hominems yet again.
http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm
Some quotes from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 9
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

etc etc....

I'm not using any ad hominems, period.

First off, harsher interrogation methods could simply mean grilling a person with different lines of questioning that could be more direct. Cops do it all the time. They are not violating human rights.

Second, if thousands of human beings were at risk of being attacked and the terrorist in question knew the plans, I think extra methods can be applied.

-snip-
That all depends on how you interpret them. The actual text says things about "dignity", "cruel punishment" and so on.
If what is going on in X-Ray already needs lawyers to defend it against this declaration, then that is a sign that it already has gone too far.

First off, harsher interrogation methods could simply mean grilling a person with different lines of questioning that could be more direct. Cops do it all the time. They are not violating human rights.
You know what I mean though. Stress Position, use of dogs, Sleep Depravation etc

You know what I mean though. Stress Position, use of dogs, Sleep Depravation etc

You're full of it.

Those who are doing that are being disciplined.

Those methods are not condoned by the adminstration.

You're full of it.

Those who are doing that are being disciplined.

Those methods are not condoned by the adminstration.

Can we just end this little debate? It's starting to remind me of a chihuahua trying to hump a doberman...

Can we just end this little debate? It's starting to remind me of a chihuahua trying to hump a doberman...

alright i'll stop. i'm going for lunch.

Those methods are not condoned by the adminstration.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.12.02.pdf
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.12.02appendix.pdf

I rest my case and leave for now. I've gotta get to Uni.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.12.02.pdf
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB127/02.12.02appendix.pdf

I rest my case and leave for now. I've gotta get to Uni.

still proves nothing. :rolleyes:

Many cops use those same techniques here.

still proves nothing. :rolleyes:

Many cops use those same techniques here.

Slothful induction: http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/sloth.php

Slothful induction: http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/sloth.php

Wrong.

Wrong.

Person 1: Strong argument and actual proof.
Mesatecala: "That proves nothing." (Without any leg to stand on, or anything that could be viewed as an actual argument.)
Person 2: Points out the fallacy.
Mesatecala: "Wrong." (Again, without any sort of argument.)

Really Mesatecala, you are rather poor at debating.

Person 1: Strong argument and actual proof.
Mesatecala: "That proves nothing." (Without any leg to stand on, or anything that could be viewed as an actual argument.)

So, no, not wrong. Really Mesatecala, you are rather poor at debating.

No, you really are poor at debating. His posts in fact prove my point. His argument is shot. In fact leave this thread, fass.

No, you really are poor at debating.

Again, you fail to have an actual argument or leg to stand on. You do know that saying "no, you really are poor at debating" (apart from it being a laughably puerile imitatory retort at what was a post that clearly demonstrated your poor skills at debating) does not make me so. You actually have to argue for it, and supply proof.

His posts in fact prove my point. His argument is shot.

Yet again, the failure to actually argue the things you claim. You do know that just because you say "his posts prove my point" doesn't make them do so. You actually have to prove that they do, and argue for it.

In fact leave this thread, fass.

You are new to these forums, but this really should not be the newsflash it probably is to you: You do not get to dictate who participates in this thread, or any other thread. So, no, I don't think I will leave. And you have no way of making me leave. Get used to it, and over yourself.

Again, you fail to have an actual argument or leg to stand on. You do know that saying "no, you really are poor at debating" (apart from it being a laughably puerile imitatory retort at what was a post that clearly demonstrated your poor skills at debating) does not make me so. You actually have to argue for it, and supply proof.

No, actually you fail because you didn't see what he provided. Apparently the guy is having problems understanding wording. I repeat that's not an insult or a flame. Many of those same techniques including lengthy questioning is employed by police agencies throughout the US legally. I do not have poor skills in debating, rather you do. And you are falling in a hole, like he did.

Yet again, the failure to actually argue the things you claim. You do know that just because you say "his posts prove my point" doesn't make them do so. You actually have to prove that they do, and argue for it.

I don't commit failures. Sorry. Move on to someone who is an easier target for your little flames.

You are new to these forums, but this really should not be the newsflash it probably is to you: You do not get to dictate who participates in this thread, or any other thread. So, no, I don't think I will leave. And you have no way of making me leave. Get used it, and over yourself.

I'm not new. I've been here for a while. And I was here about a year ago too. So I'm not new at all. I'm suggesting you leave this thread. If not, fine. You'll make yourself look bad. Get over yourself.

No, actually you fail because you didn't see what he provided.

How so? Were the files somehow magically only privy to your own perusal, or something? Why do you claim that I could not click on them, have acrobat reader start and read the perfectly legible PDF-files?

Apparently the guy is having problems understanding wording. I repeat that's not an insult or a flame. Many of those same techniques including lengthy questioning is employed by police agencies throughout the US legally.

Now, see, that's an attempt at an actual argument that should have followed his post, in stead of your short non-attempt at saying anything.

I do not have poor skills in debating, rather you do. And you are falling in a hole, like he did.

Here again is the claiming of something without any argument or proof. Really, you should start to debate before you accuse anyone of poor skils in debating. Preferably by attempting to prove your accusations.

I don't commit failures

Oh, please. Now that is just a pathetic refusal to see how you failed to argue for the things you claimed.

Sorry. Move on to someone who is an easier target for your little flames.

You really should not use words like "flame" if you don't know what they mean. I challenge you to find a flame directed at you by me since I rejoined this thread.

Oh, and you are an easy target for flames. You supply me with ample opportunity to easily flame you (we've seen that earlier in this thread, where you even threatened violence against me).

I'm not new. I've been here for a while. And I was here about a year ago too. So I'm not new at all.

Then where do you get the delusion from that you get to decide who participates in this thread?

I'm suggesting you leave this thread. If not, fine. You'll make yourself look bad.

Suggestions are not made in the imperative. That was a really poor attempt at squirmishly backtracking.

Get over yourself.

Unless you start showing what it is I am to get over, you really fail at debating again.

I'm suggesting you leave this thread. If not, fine. You'll make yourself look bad.

The only one looking bad in any of the multidinuous arguments I see you having on nearly every open forum is you, Mesatecala. Continue as you have, and you'll have managed to completely alienate everybody from all political stripes. Unless that is your stated intent, it hardly makes for an auspicious NS presence.

*sniped*

:rolleyes:

That's all that deserves. Moving along:

http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=48274&SelectRegion=Asia&SelectCountry=IRAN

"ANKARA, 25 Jul 2005 (IRIN) - Human rights groups the world over have strongly condemned the recent execution of two gay teenagers in northeastern Iran.

"It's entirely unacceptable that people are actually killed because of their sexuality," Kursad Kahramananoglu, head of the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA), the oldest and only membership-based lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) organisation in the world, maintained from Istanbul.

While exact details of the case remained unclear, he vowed if confirmed, ILGA would pursue the matter to the highest level, including the United Nations, noting a rise in homophobia in the world today."

:rolleyes:

That's all that deserves.

Another failure of Mesatecala to debate.

Quod erat demonstratum. :)

Another failure of Mesatecala to debate.

Quod erat demonstratum. :)

Again you are committing ad hominems. Call me by name, Giancarlo. You are suffering severe failures.

Again you are committing ad hominems.

Again, unless you know what an ad hominem is, you really should not use it as an accusation. I challenge you to point out the presumed ad hominem in that post.

Again, unless you know what an ad hominem is, you really should not use it as an accusation. I challenge you to point out the presumed ad hominem in that post.

You are attacking me as a person. But you as fass do that to everyone (that's what I notice here). Anyways, lets move back to the topic.

This is something the religious right needs to see.

It would bounce right off them. They would just argue that you can't compare them with Iran because the Iranians aren't Christians. Allegedly, that makes a difference.

You are attacking me as a person. But you as fass do that to everyone (that's what I notice here). Anyways, lets move back to the topic.
That wasn't an argumentum ad hominem. That's when you attack a person's character to undermine that argument. Learn the parlance, lest you look like a total fool.

You think that theocracies are good things?


http://www.outrage.org.uk/pressrelease.asp?ID=302


This is why us 'liberals' are so defensive of the barriers that the first amendment provides.

I sure would like to know what in the hell a 9-year-old girl could do to justify being executed.

You are attacking me as a person.

Where was your person mentioned in that post? I demand that you point it out.

Anyways, lets move back to the topic.

You are not getting away that easily. You claimed an ad hominem in that post. I continue to demand that you point it out, lest you leave us to assume that you've no idea what an ad hominem is.

That wasn't an argumentum ad hominem. That's when you attack a person's character to undermine that argument. Learn the parlance, lest you look like a total fool.

Again he was attacking me as a person, and was trying to undermine not only my argument but my purpose.

This is something the religious right needs to see.

No...they don't!!! You wanna give them nutjobs any ideas?!?!

shit, there's already plenty of religious whackjobs in this country that would love nothing more than to hang or stone to death, or otherwise kill people just for being homosexual. goddamn religious right morons, they want a fucking theocracy, they can go to Iran...NOT IN MY FUCKING COUNTRY!!

Again he was attacking me as a person, and was trying to undermine not only my argument but my purpose.
There was no personal attack in that post. Even if there was, there is no way in hell it could possibly be construed as an attempt to undermine your argument. Your paranoia and persecution complex are beginning to grow irritating.

Both sides of the argument are advised to stop, and to constructively add to this thread, NOT just their post count. *glare* Both of you should just drop it before the flaming starts.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I don't know why leftists are so compassionate toward criminals. Sickly humanism at its worst.

CRIMINALS?! We are not talking about Jeffrey Dahmer. We are talking about teenagers who had sex.
Iran is sick, its laws are sick, and anybody who thinks it's really cool to murder children for having sex is sick. And I don't care whose holy book says otherwise.

Both sides of the argument are advised to stop, and to constructively add to this thread, NOT just their post count. *glare* Both of you should just drop it before the flaming starts.

Yeah I'll agree and drop this. I will never admit I was wrong in this regard though.

Another failure of Mesatecala to debate.

Quod erat demonstratum. :)

Ah, just put him on ignore like I did. He isn't worth the time and effort.

Yeah I'll agree and drop this.

In other words, you cannot point out the ad hominem because there was none.

I will never admit I was wrong in this regard though.

You need not admit it - it is obvious to anyone who knows what an ad hominem is that there was no ad hominem in that post. Your own inability to point the ad hominem out is sufficient proof of your culpability in throwing out wrongful accusations.

Ah, just put him on ignore like I did. He isn't worth the time and effort.

Good advice, which in light of his ridiculous accusation I will take to heart.

I don't see whats the big deal. If you want to be gay, go to a place that allows gays, if you don't want to be gay go to a place that executes/imprisons gay people. You can't make everyone happy, so make a certain group happy and let everyone else leave.

As far as I can see it, its their own fault. When in Rome live like the Romans do. If you don't like the rules, leave. Or die :D

In other words, you cannot point out the ad hominem because there was none.



You need not admit it - it is obvious to anyone who knows what an ad hominem is that there was no ad hominem in that post. Your own inability to point the ad hominem out is sufficient proof of your culpability in throwing out wrongful accusations.

Please stop it. You are contributing nothing to the forum. I have already tried to keep the peace.

I don't see whats the big deal. If you want to be gay, go to a place that allows gays, if you don't want to be gay go to a place that executes/imprisons gay people. You can't make everyone happy, so make a certain group happy and let everyone else leave.

As far as I can see it, its their own fault. When in Rome live like the Romans do. If you don't like the rules, leave. Or die :D

I can't be gay when I want to? I have to put up a display? What is being gay anyways? I never really understood why people think it is a way someone acts.

I am gay. I can't just put something over it to cover it up. I don't know how to do that.

Please stop it. You are contributing nothing to the forum.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I have already tried to keep the peace.

Which, frankly, really is not yours to keep.

I don't see whats the big deal. If you want to be gay, go to a place that allows gays, if you don't want to be gay go to a place that executes/imprisons gay people. You can't make everyone happy, so make a certain group happy and let everyone else leave.

As far as I can see it, its their own fault. When in Rome live like the Romans do. If you don't like the rules, leave. Or die :D

Would you have had the balls to post that if you took out "gay" and replaced it with "black" or "Jewish"?

No...they don't!!! You wanna give them nutjobs any ideas?!?!

shit, there's already plenty of religious whackjobs in this country that would love nothing more than to hang or stone to death, or otherwise kill people just for being homosexual. goddamn religious right morons, they want a fucking theocracy, they can go to Iran...NOT IN MY FUCKING COUNTRY!!

Yo are an unintelligent person. How Dare you accuse religion of such things. You don't even know what you are saying. You are that dumb because you think that just because a group of people belonging to one religion do something, then the religion is to blame. You have an obtuse openmindedness and need to see both sides of the story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yo are an unintelligent person. How Dare you accuse religion of such things. You don't even know what you are saying. You are that dumb because you think that just because a group of people belonging to one religion do something, then the religion is to blame. You have an obtuse openmindedness and need to see both sides of the story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really now. You can judge my intelligence on the strength of one post of mine? Well, now, would it interest you to know that I only missed two questions on the Mensa entrance exam?

There are no two sides to this story. there's no reason to EXECUTE someone, just because they are homosexual. One side is normal human beings expressing their love for one another. The other side are barbarians and religious whack jobs.

Just because I obviously do not share YOUR opinion, does not make me unintelligent. But your wonderfully thought-out, intelligent, grammatically and syntactically correct response sure makes you sound intelligent. Welcome to my ignore list!

Really now. You can judge my intelligence on the strength of one post of mine? Well, now, would it interest you to know that I only missed two questions on the Mensa entrance exam?

There are no two sides to this story. there's no reason to EXECUTE someone, just because they are homosexual. One side is normal human beings expressing their love for one another. The other side are barbarians and religious whack jobs.

Just because I obviously do not share YOUR opinion, does not make me unintelligent. But your wonderfully thought-out, intelligent, grammatically and syntactically correct response sure makes you sound intelligent. Welcome to my ignore list!

I call you ignorant and unintelligent because I couldn't care much about what you got on your stupid test. Einstein was a slow student. I say you are ignorant because you say that religious people are nutjobs and you havent seen the sides that are the contrary nor taken account of the good deeds acomplished by religion. Therefore your ignorance, generalization of religion based on fiew events that may be only a small fraction of a religion and your failure to respond to my statement where I say you refuse to see the other side of the coin!!!!

Yo are an unintelligent person. How Dare you accuse religion of such things. You don't even know what you are saying. You are that dumb because you think that just because a group of people belonging to one religion do something, then the religion is to blame. You have an obtuse openmindedness and need to see both sides of the story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, religion would never do anything wrong! Let's forget all about the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition and the Taliban. Anything anybody does in the name of religion is beyond reproach! </sarcasm>
And what is "an obtuse openmindedness"?

Oh, religion would never do anything wrong! Let's forget all about the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition and the Taliban. Anything anybody does in the name of religion is beyond reproach! </sarcasm>
And what is "an obtuse openmindedness"?

Well, you take in account what evils have been done in the name of religion but you dont mention the many charities and good deeds done by religion.
And dont quote my earlier argument because I expained my full idea in the next repiy. OK
Ps. Go learn what "obtuse" means and come back to me later.

Many cops use those same techniques here.
Dogs?
Removal of Religious Items?
"Forced Grooming"?

Well, you take in account what evils have been done in the name of religion but you dont mention the many charities and good deeds done by religion.
I didn't say that religion has not done any good deeds. I'm just saying that not everything that is done in the name of religion should get a pass simply because it's done in the name of religion.

I didn't say that religion has not done any good deeds. I'm just saying that not everything that is done in the name of religion should get a pass simply because it's done in the name of religion.

I didn't say that either. I just said that "he" souldnt judge religion based on only some events.

I also think it is inappropriate to blame religion as a whole for these abuses. These abuses were committed by religious extremists.

Ps. Go learn what "obtuse" means and come back to me later.

ob·tuse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-ts, -tys, b-)
adj. ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est

Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.
Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.
Not distinctly felt: an obtuse pain.

Not sharp, pointed, or acute in form; blunt.
Having an obtuse angle: an obtuse triangle.
Botany. Having a blunt or rounded tip: an obtuse leaf.

*******

While I don't agree, it sounds to me like you were talking about an obtuse *lack of* openmindedness. I don't see how openmindedness can be obtuse.

Yes, Atheists have no right to say that religion is evil simply because some minorities have commited crimes and cloaked them with religion. And besides any major religions in the world are founded on principles of fairness, love, moral etc. It's just some ignorant people tham misinterpret their religion nd cause harm.

ob·tuse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (b-ts, -tys, b-)
adj. ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est

Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.
Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.
Not distinctly felt: an obtuse pain.

Not sharp, pointed, or acute in form; blunt.
Having an obtuse angle: an obtuse triangle.
Botany. Having a blunt or rounded tip: an obtuse leaf.

*******

While I don't agree, it sounds to me like you were talking about an obtuse *lack of* openmindedness. I don't see how openmindedness can be obtuse.

Just dont push it. You know I meant obtuse in the sense of a slow openmindedness. I know this word ok I do take english class.

Ps. I do see opendmindedness as sometimes being obtuse because people might not be smart enoug to open their minds to what everyone else has to say.

The only types of sex that should be punishable by death are bestialty, pedophilia, and incest.

(Disclaimer: I, myself, am not attracted to family-members or non-humans.)

I propose you cut your list down to pedophilia, as there doesn't seem to be anything inherently wrong with consentual, non-procreative incest or consentual bestiality.

So long as both participants are consenting adults, and willing to avoid conception at all costs, an incestful relationship (though offensive to many, but then again so is homosexuality, and plushophilia) really isn't all that different from a normal one.

Bestiality is a slightly more complex issue, though. Like many other paraphilias it is considered highly offensive to many people, though that doesn't necessaraly mean it is wrong. Engaging in it does risk getting STDs which humans aren't used to dealing with (I think that we have human/animal sex to blame for gohnorea and HIV/AIDS) but that risk is really minimal.

I propose that sex with an unrestrained, consenting, clean*, physicaly and emotionaly mature partner who is capable of physicaly engaging in the act in a private setting is not inherently wrong.

(*Clean in this case implies that they are healthy, and do not have diseases that can be transmited to their partner. While it is rare that humans can catch anything serious from a mamailian quadraped that we don't already have, primates are another matter. Think HIV/AIDS)

Viruses can mutate. HIV might have just been mutated monkey IV.

Exactly. That's why sex with apes and monkeys is wrong, when sex with a horse or dog isn't.

"Harsh" interrogation methods, without violating human rights, are indeed possible and practical. Confinement and discomfort (making sure it causes no permanent damage) are not violations of human rights.like sexual assault?

some bushites will argue that it causes no permanent Physical damage.
The bushites will tell(themselves) anything to stay under the impression that torture is acceptable.

Oh, religion would never do anything wrong! Let's forget all about the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition and the Taliban. Anything anybody does in the name of religion is beyond reproach! </sarcasm>
And what is "an obtuse openmindedness"?

And let's not forget about those wonderful Salem Witch Trials, while we're at it. And the silent consent of the slave trade, and support (early on, at least) for Hitler in Nazi Germany.

Yep. Good old religion would NEVER do anything wrong...religion is completely and totally beyond reproach, isn't it??

Jesus Christ, does this California and Nevada dude even REALIZE I'm condemning the ACTION that was done, and not a whole religion? Is he aware that when I said "No, the religious right does NOT need to see this, don't give them ideas, etc." I was condemning THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT (which is more about politics than religion, anyway) and not an entire religion??

Ah, who cares. Someone who couldn't figure that out without it being spelled out for them ain't worth my time. He's on my ignore list. I only saw his reply to me because someone else quoted it.

But, yeah...religion is ALWAYS good...always right...oh, they would NEVER do anything to harm anybody...yeah, sure, right, whatever...

I didn't say that either. I just said that "he" souldnt judge religion based on only some events.

HE is a SHE. And SHE was not judging religion, SHE was judging a political movement that happens to hide behind a cloak of religion. their agenda is FAR MORE POLITICAL than religious. They just find religion to be a useful smokescreen for what they are REALLY all about.

You show me where in the Bible JESUS would condone putting anyone, least of all homosexuals...to death. If you are a CHRISTIAN...then you are supposed to follow JESUS...right?? Well, show me where JESUS would lead His followers to do most of the things endorsed by the political movement that calls themselves The Religious Right...or The Christian Coalition, for that matter.

Yes, Atheists have no right to say that religion is evil simply because some minorities have commited crimes and cloaked them with religion. And besides any major religions in the world are founded on principles of fairness, love, moral etc. It's just some ignorant people tham misinterpret their religion nd cause harm.

And you assume I'm an Athiest, I take it? would it interest you to know I am a Unitarian Christian? And I'm pissed off at the way my good religion has been hijacked by a bunch of fucking whackjobs to serve as a smokescreen for a political agenda?

And you assume I'm an Athiest, I take it? would it interest you to know I am a Unitarian Christian? And I'm pissed off at the way my good religion has been hijacked by a bunch of fucking whackjobs to serve as a smokescreen for a political agenda?



For a supposed "Christian" you know very little about what you speak. Keep in mind, this is the person who bashes Paul all the time yet attributed one of his quotes to Christ.

For a supposed "Christian" you know very little about what you speak. Keep in mind, this is the person who bashes Paul all the time yet attributed one of his quotes to Christ.

Keep in mind that most of Paul's teaching and words clash DIRECTLY with the words and teachings of JESUS. If you weren't so in love with Paul (because he says it's okay for you to hold onto your precious bigotries and hatreds) you, too, would see that Paul is a thorn in the side of Christianity.

He completely undermined the message and the teachings of Jesus, in order to please the rich and powerful of his day.

Given a choice to follow the words and teachings of Paul...or of JESUS...I'll pick Jesus any day, because I am truly a Christian (follower of Christ.) You, on the other hand, seem to be what the vast majority of those calling themselves Christian truly are...and that is, a Paulite (follower of Paul.)

You have lost the message of peace, love, joy, forgiveness, and mercy that Jesus taught...and have cleaved onto the message of hate, punishment, and suffering...of Paul.

Then agian, it always has been easier for humans to hate than for humans to love, hasn't it?

I have never beaten or embarassed a gay person. I let them know where they stand with me and they can respect or reject my view and though I cann't sympathize with thier personal probs in the gay sence I bear no ill will. I only have 1 freind that is gay and his boyfriend hates me but he see's my point of view and gives me that latitude of my POV as he has his POV and we get along fine. Besides. judgement is that of GOD and not me, I wish gays well thoughout thier life but only the day of reaconing will tell.

Go screw yourself. And for everyone's sake shut the fuck up and go jump off a cliff for your ignorance and lack of compassion. You should go to hell for your lack of intelligence. I hope you do not have a nice day you stupid, brainwashed piece of filth in this world.

Go screw yourself. And for everyone's sake shut the fuck up and go jump off a cliff for your ignorance and lack of compassion. You should go to hell for your lack of intelligence. I hope you do not have a nice day you stupid, brainwashed piece of filth in this world.

Dude, chill. Save it for someone who deerves it.