NationStates Jolt Archive

This is for US citizens only.

Classic.

Why are you asking?

Talk about irrelevance. What does a passport have to do with supporting the president? I don't get it. Total classic.

It doesn't seem immediately like there is a connection, but I am curious to see if people who have travelled overseas, not including Canada and Mexico, have different political views than people who never leave the US. Because a relatively low percentage of Americans have passports, about 23 percent, and I was thinking that perhaps that fact has something to do with Bush's support.

It doesn't seem immediately like there is a connection, but I am curious to see if people who have travelled overseas, not including Canada and Mexico, have different political views than people who never leave the US. Because a relatively low percentage of Americans have passports, about 23 percent, and I was thinking that perhaps that fact has something to do with Bush's support.

Oh so this thread was created to criticize americans who don't have passports? Maybe if you would take into account it is so expensive to travel overseas. Sure I have a passport. I do travel.. but it is expensive. It isn't cheap. Not all of us can afford it.

Then I can see the connection some leftists will try to make here: people who support Bush are ignorant and don't travel. No evidence for that.

are you trying to find a correlation between not owning a passport and being a Bush supporter. Evidence that US citizens are "locally minded".

The vast majority of US citizens do no have a passport and most of those who do have never left the US. Only about 50% of those who expressed a preference chose Bush so you'll not get anyhting intersting I expect.

I'll Lurk with bated breath.

It doesn't seem immediately like there is a connection, but I am curious to see if people who have travelled overseas, not including Canada and Mexico, have different political views than people who never leave the US. Because a relatively low percentage of Americans have passports, about 23 percent, and I was thinking that perhaps that fact has something to do with Bush's support.
Fair enough I s'pose, but I don't travel overseas, I live overseas.

As for travel being expensive... yeah, it's partly true but in fact it's no more expensive than staying in one place. I don't mean to say people who don't travel are ignorant, what I want to see is more if people who do travel have conservative political beliefs, and how their travelling affected their views.

It also is interesting to me to get a general idea of how much travelling the people on this forum do.

I think it's all geographic really. A great number of europeans have passports but they also have borders less than 300 miles away from them in almost any direction. The only borders we have are Canada and Mexico and until very recently, all we needed to visit either place was our drivers license or State ID. In general, we don't need passports unless we are travelling several thousand miles away.

Try comparing our 23% of passport holders with the percentage of Europeans who travel more than 2,000miles from their home and you'll find a more even comparison.

As for travel being expensive... yeah, it's partly true but in fact it's no more expensive than staying in one place. I don't mean to say people who don't travel are ignorant, what I want to see is more if people who do travel have conservative political beliefs, and how their travelling affected their views.

It also is interesting to me to get a general idea of how much travelling the people on this forum do.
I think a great deal of the problem with US travellers is that you live across a large part of a continent.
If I want some sun I leave the UK and hop over to spain or turkey or greece.
It's cheaper than a UK holiday a lot of the time.
You don't have to do that, you can find any conditions you want in the US and you don't have to worry about currency or language.
This is sure to make you seem small worldy but is understandable.
I think those of you who have travelled to europe (not in a tourist pack)realise that it's fun and easy and come again.
Those who haven't been, don't see the point and won't spend the extra cash. Why would they?

So how much of an effect do you think USAs geographic isolation has on the politics? So Europe tends to be more leftist than USA, and is this because of all the diversity? I know it's arrogant to say it but it makes Europe's politics look more sound to me, though not perfect of course.

As for travel being expensive... yeah, it's partly true but in fact it's no more expensive than staying in one place. I don't mean to say people who don't travel are ignorant, what I want to see is more if people who do travel have conservative political beliefs, and how their travelling affected their views.

It also is interesting to me to get a general idea of how much travelling the people on this forum do.

No I'm sorry it is not. In fact it costs a lot of money to travel and I know that. The plane ticket isn't the only expense. Hotels... etc... it isn't cheap. I don't think travel will effect my political views.

So how much of an effect do you think USAs geographic isolation has on the politics? So Europe tends to be more leftist than USA, and is this because of all the diversity? I know it's arrogant to say it but it makes Europe's politics look more sound to me, though not perfect of course.

Europe's politics are idiotic typically (when it comes to France or Germany). I'm from Europe myself and I think it is ridiculous that you make such assertions. Sound? I think not.

Europe's politics are idiotic typically (when it comes to France or Germany). I'm from Europe myself and I think it is ridiculous that you make such assertions. Sound? I think not.

I'm talking more along the lines of social welfare and health care... of course it's incredibly subjective and a big generalisation, but take for example Hollands policy on drugs, Norways policy for health care, France and Germany's foreign policy, and the whole concept of the European Union and it's adherence to things like the Kyoto Protocol... none of that seems idiotic to me.

Oooh, I travel all the time and I intensely dislike Bush. Usually I have just a pretty mild dislike for American policy and whomever is in charge (though I gotta admit, with the latter part of the Clinton years it became tempered with moderate disdain), but Bush is no friend of mine, in both the literal and figurative sense.

Of course this may also be assisted by the facts that most of the upper age groups of my family are filled with Europeans, and the first few years of my schooling I had two consecutive European teachers and a European agent until I dropped modeling. I'm pretty sure I've got a more spicy, world-oriented upbringing than the average American child, as well as being a traveler.

No I'm sorry it is not. In fact it costs a lot of money to travel and I know that. The plane ticket isn't the only expense. Hotels... etc... it isn't cheap. I don't think travel will effect my political views.

Well, I've been travelling for the past three months in Europe and Africa and so far I've spent 2,000 dollars including plane ticket and everything. It costs as much as you want it to, you can travel for any cost, it's just a matter of desire in my opinion.

I'm talking more along the lines of social welfare and health care... of course it's incredibly subjective and a big generalisation, but take for example Hollands policy on drugs, Norways policy for health care, France and Germany's foreign policy, and the whole concept of the European Union and it's adherence to things like the Kyoto Protocol... none of that seems idiotic to me.

Now that's all dependent on your views. As far as you are concerned, I disagree with welfare states and socialized healthcare, and the kyoto protocol at that fact. France and Germany's foreign policy are very idiotic (especially concerned with Iraq).

Now that's all dependent on your views. As far as you are concerned, I disagree with welfare states and socialized healthcare, and the kyoto protocol at that fact. France and Germany's foreign policy are very idiotic (especially concerned with Iraq).Yeah, especially since the Germans stayed out of it because it might end up in a destabelizing near civil war. Good that that didn't happen :rolleyes:

I'm talking more along the lines of social welfare and health care... of course it's incredibly subjective and a big generalisation, but take for example Hollands policy on drugs, Norways policy for health care, France and Germany's foreign policy, and the whole concept of the European Union and it's adherence to things like the Kyoto Protocol... none of that seems idiotic to me.
I feel it's to do with scale.
Most european countries have unique problems which can be solved locally.
It's a lot harder to carry out social reforms on a grand scale (as we're finding in the EU).
I'm sure the US has local laws which seem outlandish to other parts of the US.
(you were at the forefront of gay marriage for instance)
We also have local laws on a similar scale they're just national instead of state laws.
Looked at on the small scale the US is not such an ignorant bogey man. It's only on the larger scale that you come across as ignorant bullies (sorry but you do).
"I never met an American I disliked but I don't have to like your foreign policy"

So your views are more in line with the current US administrations politics? Yeah, ultimately it is a matter of opinion, but I didn't start the post to argue the topic of 'politics' but how travel affects personal politcis, and now I guess also to see how geography affects them.

I feel it's to do with scale.
Most european countries have unique problems which can be solved locally.
It's a lot harder to carry out social reforms on a grand scale (as we're finding in the EU).
I'm sure the US has local laws which seem outlandish to other parts of the US.
(you were at the forefront of gay marriage for instance)
We also have local laws on a similar scale they're just national instead of state laws.
Looked at on the small scale the US is not such an ignorant bogey man. It's only on the larger scale that you come across as ignorant bullies (sorry but you do).
"I never met an American I disliked but I don't have to like your foreign policy"

But this is what I want to examine here. the fact that we are able to behave as ignorant bullies is made possible by the politics of the individuals, since we are still for the time being a democracy. Either that or the apathy of the individuals.

But this is what I want to examine here. the fact that we are able to behave as ignorant bullies is made possible by the politics of the individuals, since we are still for the time being a democracy. Either that or the apathy of the individuals.
I think by now it's more a democracy in name....sure, we still get to vote on some things that seem important at the time, whether or not we already know the outcome (not referring to the last Presidential election), but when you get right down to it, the people no longer have control. They haven't had any sense of control for quite some time.

But that's just my opinion.

I'm talking more along the lines of social welfare and health care... of course it's incredibly subjective and a big generalisation, but take for example Hollands policy on drugs, Norways policy for health care, France and Germany's foreign policy, and the whole concept of the European Union and it's adherence to things like the Kyoto Protocol... none of that seems idiotic to me.


Norway's health care? I havent heard reports of people flocking there for care. Maybe the system is good, but they arent considered on the cutting edge in treatment. I see conjoined twins being seperated in 20 hour surgeries they dont have to pay for in the US. I see foreign leaders coming here for cancer treatment.

France & Germany's foreign policy? Do nothing-watch everyone else and then complain about it? Are they helping someone somewhere?

I've had a passport-well worn- for over 20 years now. And I voted for and support President Bush. And I'm not a Christian fundamentalist. And I'm not a "NASCAR" dad.

Norway's health care? I havent heard reports of people flocking there for care. Maybe the system is good, but they arent considered on the cutting edge in treatment. I see conjoined twins being seperated in 20 hour surgeries they dont have to pay for in the US. I see foreign leaders coming here for cancer treatment.

France & Germany's foreign policy? Do nothing-watch everyone else and then complain about it? Are they helping someone somewhere?

I've had a passport-well worn- for over 20 years now. And I voted for and support President Bush. And I'm not a Christian fundamentalist. And I'm not a "NASCAR" dad.
Ahhhh. Don't start the "we're better than you" debate here. It's one no-one ever wins. We do things differently. You don't live here so why would you care. You do things differently and I don't care until they affect me.

If the question, Badakhshan, is does travel make you more socialist or careing or give you a more enlightened foreign policy I'm affraid you're barking up the wrong tree.

All nations are to some degree selfish and the US is very large so comes over as very selfish. When you introduce trade tarrifs to protect jobs you protect a lot of jobs and create a sizeable barrier to trade if Belgium does the same no one notices.

The EU has exactly the same problems as the US except we have a divided foreign policy and each country gets to stand on it's own feet according to it's social policies (well mostly). Our trade tariffs are as stinky as yours for the people who they affect.

I think that even if Americans travelled more they would only gain as much as they want to gain much like those UK citizens who can't find a good cup of tea in Spain. Some people only look at how much worse a place is than their home is.

I hope you're just going through a phase of overseas intervention and that when the costs are tallied you'll see the loses out weigh the gains and then we'll have a period on introspection

Matter of fact, socialized healthcare is rather lackluster...

Matter of fact, socialized healthcare is rather lackluster...
That's a boring and off topic troll.

It must be wrong cos that's not how we do it.
Well it never let me down so it must be the best hting in the world. :rolleyes:

I said no to both.. Besides, I have better than a US passport. I have a Canadian passport. Wouldn't trade it for another passport for nothing! ;)

Simonist']I think by now it's more a democracy in name....sure, we still get to vote on some things that seem important at the time, whether or not we already know the outcome (not referring to the last Presidential election), but when you get right down to it, the people no longer have control. They haven't had any sense of control for quite some time.
We were never a “democracy in name.” When will people realize that we are, and have been since our founding, a representative federal republic? Maybe when our politicians top saying democracy because it sounds cool.

I support Bush inasmuch as he's the President. I'm on my third passport.

I think a great deal of the problem with US travellers is that you live across a large part of a continent.
If I want some sun I leave the UK and hop over to spain or turkey or greece.
It's cheaper than a UK holiday a lot of the time.
You don't have to do that, you can find any conditions you want in the US and you don't have to worry about currency or language.
This is sure to make you seem small worldy but is understandable.
I think those of you who have travelled to europe (not in a tourist pack)realise that it's fun and easy and come again.
Those who haven't been, don't see the point and won't spend the extra cash. Why would they?

I am always surprised by the failure of non-US citizens to appreciate that the geography of the US doesn't only affect climate. There are HUGE cultural differences between various regions of the US. I have travelled over a good portion of the earth and almost never experience the great degree of culture shock I get travelling between the Northeast and South in the US.

And the language is different!

It doesn't seem immediately like there is a connection, but I am curious to see if people who have travelled overseas, not including Canada and Mexico, have different political views than people who never leave the US. Because a relatively low percentage of Americans have passports, about 23 percent, and I was thinking that perhaps that fact has something to do with Bush's support.

Then you should have asked if they are Democrats, Republicans, or other. There are some Democrats who support Bush and some Republicans who don't support him. :eek: If you are interested in their political views don't ask about their support of the President.

I am always surprised by the failure of non-US citizens to appreciate that the geography of the US doesn't only affect climate. There are HUGE cultural differences between various regions of the US. I have travelled over a good portion of the earth and almost never experience the great degree of culture shock I get travelling between the Northeast and South in the US.

And the language is different!
Yeah, I think we understand that any country spreading across that much area must differ hughly across it's breadth (there's no suggestion that Moscow is similar to Siberia either is there?)

The culture shock comes, surely, from not being prepared for those differences. So travel within the US is going to feel more safe to those US travellers who don't expect the US to be THAT different.

You are patently better travelled than most so does travel make you more understanding of the world versus the US debate?

Yeah, I think we understand that any country spreading across that much area must differ hughly across it's breadth (there's no suggestion that Moscow is similar to Siberia either is there?)

The culture shock comes, surely, from not being prepared for those differences. So travel within the US is going to feel more safe to those US travellers who don't expect the US to be THAT different.

You are patently better travelled than most so does travel make you more understanding of the world versus the US debate?

I have travelled a lot more than most people I know. I have not made it to any Asian countries yet, however and make no claims to be an expert. My hubby is european and I have friends from all over Europe, the US, South Africa, various Asian countries, and the middle east. I am simply offering observations based on my personal experience.

On one of my last trips to Ireland, I started talking to a Londoner in a pub in Dublin. This well-educated and reasonably well-travelled guy thought he could take a ten day vacation and visit in the following order: Boston, New Orleans, Las Vegas, then ski Vale, San Francisco, and finally, take a leisurely drive down the California coast to Los Angeles.

My point is that - in my experience - people that have not been to the United States are not in a position to understand the very real diversity that exists from region to region because such large scale regional diversity doesn't exist in many other countries.

And no - travel doesn't make me better understand the World vs. US debate.

It has, however, made me understand that there is no way for the US to please the rest of the world. Whatever action - or inaction - the US carries out is going to displease a great number of governments and individuals. At the same time, the same action - or inaction - is going to greatly please a great number of governments and individuals. So, the primary - not only - responsibility of the US government has got to be to advance, guard and protect the interests of its own people.

And the citizens of the rest of the world should understand that - as that is exactly what their own governments do. Or should do.

It doesn't seem immediately like there is a connection, but I am curious to see if people who have travelled overseas, not including Canada and Mexico, have different political views than people who never leave the US. Because a relatively low percentage of Americans have passports, about 23 percent, and I was thinking that perhaps that fact has something to do with Bush's support.


Well I do support the president. Been to 52 countries outside the US. Lived in the UK and Morocco and am centrist. So there you have it....

37% of Bush haters have passports, while 63% of Bush haters don't have passports.

90% of Bush supporters have passports, while 10% of Bush supporters do not have passports.

Looks like Bush supporters have more exposure to foreign culture... ;)

Mine expired. I don't need to go outside of the country anyway. Too much school.