NationStates Jolt Archive

Does the good brought by Religion outweigh the bad?

I say no. Simple as that.

What about you?

How can it outweigh the deaths of millions of people over the course of thousands of years?

I agree.

No.

Stuff like charity, aid, etc has been taken up by secular organisations. Not killing, stealing, etc should just be common sense by now.

Historically (and currently) religion has been responsible for more death and human suffering than any enrichment to anyone's lives (which is true, I grant you that, but I'd prefer to have my life enriched by something... oh, I dunno.. real..).

I say no. I have trouble seeing what good it actually does. I see the harm it does whenever I watch the news.

*waiting for all the deacons to show up*

Religion BAD
Spirituality GOOD

Religion = Bad
religion = Good.

To me one of the biggest evils that the leaders still do today is indoctrinating children to their faith.

They are not allowed to think for themselves and are scared into beliving what they are told.

Religion BAD
Spirituality GOOD

Dude.

Religion BAD
Spirituality GOOD

Organized worship BAD

Deeply personal relationship with your own particular concept of Godhead GOOD

It depends on the religion. Some religions have done more good than evil (like Buddhism); others, like Christianity, have caused the reverse.

Yes, I'm sure all the widows, orphans, and poor really think Christianity is evil :rolleyes:


Think before you speak.

Yes, I'm sure all the widows, orphans, and poor really think Christianity is evil :rolleyes:


Think before you speak.
Well, perhaps the widows and orphans of holy wars do. Perhaps the poor who got duped into giving what little they had to Oral Roberts do.

Yes, I'm sure all the widows, orphans, and poor really think Christianity is evil :rolleyes:


Think before you speak.


Yes, and I'm sure the millions that were slaughtered in God's name are so happy about him too.

"Think before you speak"

If it wasn't for religion, nobody in history would ever have died...

Well, perhaps the widows and orphans of holy wars do. Perhaps the poor who got duped into giving what little they had to Oral Roberts do.




There is no such thing as a "Holy War". You cannot attribute the actions of individuals to a religion, lest you remove the concept of personal responsibility...and I'd love to see your citations for these supposed "statistics" showing that Christians have killed more peoplke than they have helped. This thread is just flamebait, that's all there is to it.

To me one of the biggest evils that the leaders still do today is indoctrinating children to their faith.

They are not allowed to think for themselves and are scared into beliving what they are told.

Yeah I know. I mean democracy and capitalism both suck. Yet they keep on indoctrinating us into believing as such. :D

I do not think that religion is bad. People like to kill other people regardless of religion, the purges of stalin were not done out of religion.

Besides, I might say that we have been indoctrinated to believe that life is good and important. Is nihilism a less acceptable belief than secular humanism? Or how about christianity vs nihilism, or even christianity vs secular humanism? In those circumstances we are going to pick the ideology that we agree with more and then argue its merits saying that it is better.

Yes, and I'm sure the millions that were slaughtered in God's name are so happy about him too.

"Think before you speak"



Hah, atheist regimes have killed far more individuals than any religion could ever consider doing. I suppose we could ask the question "Does the good brought by atheism outweigh the bad?". Generalizations like these have no place on these forums.

Yes, I'm sure all the widows, orphans, and poor really think Christianity is evil :rolleyes:Good: Christianity has helped the poor, united the world's peoples, and created one of the most interesting debaters on NS General ;)

Evil: Persecution both of and by Christians during the Roman Empire, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Huguenot Massacre of 1573, Salem Witch Trials of 1692, Hitler, and so on and so forth

Helping a few hundred thousand poor vs. killing a few million people unjustly? I think not. :)

And the holy wars just created more widows, orphans, etc. to be cared for, as someone has already pointed out.

Good: Christianity has helped the poor, united the world's peoples, and created one of the most interesting debaters on NS General ;)

Evil: Persecution both of and by Christians during the Roman Empire, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Huguenot Massacre of 1573, Salem Witch Trials of 1692, Hitler, and so on and so forth

Helping a few hundred thousand poor vs. killing a few million people unjustly? I think not. :)

And the holy wars just created more widows, orphans, etc. to be cared for, as someone has already pointed out.



Millions...nay, billions more have benefited from Christianity than have died from those who have mispracticed it.

There is no such thing as a "Holy War". You cannot attribute the actions of individuals to a religion, lest you remove the concept of personal responsibility...and I'd love to see your citations for these supposed "statistics" showing that Christians have killed more peoplke than they have helped. This thread is just flamebait, that's all there is to it.
Statistics?


The absence of religion doesn't mean charity and good deeds disappear. It does, however, mean that there is one less thing dividing people and giving them an excuse to fight. That's why I think religion is more trouble than it's worth.

No doubt atheist regimes have killed many people but both not nearly as many as the total of those with religous beliefs (think EVERY nation in oh, lets say the world til past the american revolution), plus they dont kill in the name of god which i think is a much worse crime.

Statistics?


The absence of religion doesn't mean charity and good deeds disappear. It does, however, mean that there is one less thing dividing people and giving them an excuse to fight. That's why I think religion is more trouble than it's worth.



Nor does the absence of religion guarantee war will disappear. People will just find another excuse...and, yes, charity will take a major hit from the absence of religion.

Hah, atheist regimes have killed far more individuals than any religion could ever consider doing. I suppose we could ask the question "Does the good brought by atheism outweigh the bad?". Generalizations like these have no place on these forums.
You mean like Stalin and Mao's regimes? They didn't kill to further atheism. They killed to further their versions of communism. There has never, to my knowledge, been a nation of Atheists who set out to kill theists.

There have, on the other hand, been plenty of theists who beleived that god told them to kill people. Like that scumbag Eric Rudolph who bombed gay bars and abortion clinics, or the Al Quaeda vermin.

No doubt atheist regimes have killed many people but both not nearly as many as the total of those with religous beliefs (think EVERY nation in oh, lets say the world til past the american revolution), plus they dont kill in the name of god which i think is a much worse crime.



Even if you could somehow chalk Hitler's genocide up to religion (very unlikely), the deaths from Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, etc. would far far FAR outweigh those from religion.

You mean like Stalin and Mao's regimes? They didn't kill to further atheism. They killed to further their versions of communism. There has never, to my knowledge, been a nation of Atheists who set out to kill theists.

There have, on the other hand, been plenty of theists who beleived that god told them to kill people. Like that scumbag Eric Rudolph who bombed gay bars and abortion clinics, or the Al Quaeda vermin.




Stalin and Mao made atheism mandatory, and it guided many of their policies, therefore you have to add them to the tally.

Nor does the absence of religion guarantee war will disappear. People will just find another excuse...and, yes, charity will take a major hit from the absence of religion.

No it doesnt but i belive that it would remove a good amount of conflict from the world and overall the profit would outweigh the cost.

Nor does the absence of religion guarantee war will disappear. People will just find another excuse...and, yes, charity will take a major hit from the absence of religion.
1 You're right. Absence of religion doesn't mean absence of war, but it cuts down on people's motivations to fight wars.

2 I don't agree that absence of religion means less charity. Look at Western Europe. They're very secular. Agnostics and Atheists are probably in the majority in many of those nations. Nobody starves to death there. The poor are well taken care of.

Stalin and Mao made atheism mandatory, and it guided many of their policies, therefore you have to add them to the tally.
Communism, not atheism guided their policies. Although communism incorporates atheism, atheism isn't communism.

What atheist regimes are we talking about for comparison? I'm drawing a blank after the first two that pop in my head, Soviet Union and Genghis Khan Mongolian Empire.

Of the two, I'd say Mongolian's had the better civil rights (first capital city in the history of the world to have a Mosque, a Synagogue and a Church).

Millions...nay, billions more have benefited from Christianity than have died from those who have mispracticed it.
Perhaps more...

1 You're right. Absence of religion doesn't mean absence of war, but it cuts down on people's motivations to fight wars.

2 I don't agree that absence of religion means less charity. Look at Western Europe. They're very secular. Agnostics and Atheists are probably in the majority in many of those nations. Nobody starves to death there. The poor are well taken care of.




That is through social welfare programs, not charity. Also, they live under the US's military umbrella and can therefore spend much more on social programs than on their militaries.

Even if you could somehow chalk Hitler's genocide up to religion (very unlikely), the deaths from Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, etc. would far far FAR outweigh those from religion.

Now, im not going to argue on the fact that they killed many people, but they ar ea handful of regimes which did this, but if you look back every single nation from the 1600's back was theistic, how can you claim that every nation in the world for that long killed less people than a handful of atheist regimes that you listed.

Also, (correct me if im wrong, i very well might be) There has been no nation or large group of people who have killed singly in the name of atheism.

Communism, not atheism guided their policies. Although communism incorporates atheism, atheism isn't communism.



Yet atheism was essential to their establishment, as religion would have fostered dissention. Atheism and communism are nearly inseperable.

Atheism and communism are nearly inseperable.

Umm, methinks that therer are plenty of atheists who are not communists, in fact, i'd say the majority of them without quesiton are not communists. Thank you for giving a brillant statement, backed up by intelligent facts.

That is through social welfare programs, not charity. Also, they live under the US's military umbrella and can therefore spend much more on social programs than on their militaries.
Social welfare programs are charity that the whole nation has voted on.

Now, im not going to argue on the fact that they killed many people, but they ar ea handful of regimes which did this, but if you look back every single nation from the 1600's back was theistic, how can you claim that every nation in the world for that long killed less people than a handful of atheist regimes that you listed.

Also, (correct me if im wrong, i very well might be) There has been no nation or large group of people who have killed singly in the name of atheism.


No, not every nation from the beginning of time to 1600 was theistic, therefore that point is invalid.

Yet atheism was essential to their establishment, as religion would have fostered dissention. Atheism and communism are nearly inseperable.
Communism and making sure the peasants get paid enough to eat are also inseperable. By your reasoning couldn't you say that those killed by Stalin and Mao were killed in the name of feeding the poor?

Social welfare programs are charity that the whole nation has voted on.



Charity is not mandatory, whereas taxes to support social welfare is.

No, not every nation from the beginning of time to 1600 was theistic, therefore that point is invalid.
Please name one that wasn't theistic.

Charity is not mandatory, whereas taxes to support social welfare is.
Not if the majority of the people vote to abolish social welfare. In a democracy almost everything the government does is by the consent of the governed. Meanwhile in a nation full of good christians like the USA we can't even guarantee health coverage.

WEll im sorry, i meant to put the same phrase i used further down up there also, but you must agree that the VAST majority of them were, and almost every european one, also i challenge you neo rogolia to name more than two in the entire history before the sixteen hundreds

Communism and making sure the peasants get paid enough to eat are also inseperable. By your reasoning couldn't you say that those killed by Stalin and Mao were killed in the name of feeding the poor?



That was communism mispracticed, as the things stated in this thread are Christianity/Islam mispracticed. Which is why this thread is flamebait to the truly devout and why I'm about to lose my cool.

Atheism and Communism aren't interchangeable. Monasteries are an enduring and venerated expression of a communist ideal, one that is deeply rooted in Theism.

WEll im sorry, i meant to put the same phrase i used further down up there also, but you must agree that the VAST majority of them were, and almost every european one, also i challenge you neo rogolia to name more than two in the entire history before the sixteen hundreds



Ok, which do you want two of: those who had an official state religion or those who were secular but had some citizens practicing religion?

Millions...nay, billions more have benefited from Christianity than have died from those who have mispracticed it.Prove it. The following statistics are given:

Over 500,000 Muslims and Jews were slaughtered unnecessarily in the Crusades.

A similar number was killed, tortured, or deported during the Inquisition.

Up to 12 million people were killed by far-right-wing Christian Nazis under Hitler.

In many other bloody conflicts between Christians and Muslims, Christians and Jews, and Christians fighting among themselves, at least 6-10 million people were killed. ((All these statistics come from history textbooks btw.))

In addition, many people have been killed because they believed in Christianity.

And just look at George W. Bush conquering Iraq in the name of God.


The slaughter goes on. And you can't say everyone who believes in Christianity benefits from it, as they don't—many are tricked by evangelists or fundamentalists into believing in the Militant $NATIONALITY Death Cult, going so far from the teachings of Jesus that it's almost scary. [/rant]

Atheism and Communism aren't interchangeable. Monasteries are an enduring and venerated expression of a communist ideal, one that is deeply rooted in Theism.



The communism we're referring to is interchangeable with atheism :)

Well, atheism is not any doctrine at all. That is why no one dies in the name of atheism. Atheism is really nothing except the rejection of god, religions and philosophies are doctrines by which people live. One could even argue that it was not religion that killed people it was the doctrines or the leaders but not religion itself.

People don't give money to charity because they're religious, they do it because they're good people. If religions weren't around, the "christian childrens charity fund"would just be called the "childrens charity fund". Also, the size of the U.S's military umbrella has nothing to do with religions. Infact, if it weren't for religions, the U.S. would have fewer extremist groups to defend against.

That was communism mispracticed, as the things stated in this thread are Christianity/Islam mispracticed. Which is why this thread is flamebait to the truly devout and why I'm about to lose my cool.


Religon mispracticed is still religon and a result of religon so stop calling the valid question ased flamebait.

Religion=Good
Fanacticism=V. Bad

The communism we're referring to is interchangeable with atheism :)
No it's not. Communism is the car. Athism is a part of the car. Can you drive to work on a transmission alone? Clearly they're not interchangable.

Prove it. The following statistics are given:

Over 500,000 Muslims and Jews were slaughtered unnecessarily in the Crusades.

A similar number was killed, tortured, or deported during the Inquisition.

Up to 12 million people were killed by far-right-wing Christian Nazis under Hitler.

In many other bloody conflicts between Christians and Muslims, Christians and Jews, and Christians fighting among themselves, at least 6-10 million people were killed. ((All these statistics come from history textbooks btw.))

In addition, many people have been killed because they believed in Christianity.

And just look at George W. Bush conquering Iraq in the name of God.


The slaughter goes on. And you can't say everyone who believes in Christianity benefits from it, as they don't—many are tricked by evangelists or fundamentalists into believing in the Militant $NATIONALITY Death Cult, going so far from the teachings of Jesus that it's almost scary. [/rant]




1. Mispracticed Christianity =/= true Christianity

2. See above

3. See above but apply it to Judaism and Islam as well

4. This cannot be attributed to Christianity as the hatred for the Jews was mainly secular. After all, I remember a quote from Hitler which said something along the lines of "Christianity is a weak religion". He obviously didn't agree with its pacifist message.


I never said everyone benefits from Christianity, but the charity, hope, peace, goodwill, and love among true Christians far surpasses the suffering brought by false Christians.

Well, atheism is not any doctrine at all. That is why no one dies in the name of atheism. Atheism is really nothing except the rejection of god, religions and philosophies are doctrines by which people live. One could even argue that it was not religion that killed people it was the doctrines or the leaders but not religion itself.Atheism is not a religion. Its followers have nothing to believe in, hence nothing to kill for. But atheism definitely is not communism. You can have religious communism and atheist capitalism. In fact, it would seem that communism, which divides the community money equally among everyone including the widows, orphans, poor, etc. would be a good deal more Christian than anything else. ;)

The communism we're referring to is interchangeable with atheism :)

Communism is not interchangeable with atheism, I think you need to look up communiism in its basics, in its basics its a purely economic system.

No it's not. Communism is the car. Athism is a part of the car. Can you drive to work on a transmission alone? Clearly they're not interchangable.



Soviet Russia and China abolished religion for one reason: Dependence on God instead of upon the State would lead to insurrections. Which is why the pseudo-communist form of dictatorship necessitates atheism. If the people still had spiritual attachment, they could resist the opression.

Communism is not interchangeable with atheism, I think you need to look up communiism in its basics, in its basics its a purely economic system.



Note where I said "the communism we're referring to" as opposed to communism in theory.

1. Mispracticed Christianity =/= true Christianity

2. See above

3. See above but apply it to Judaism and Islam as well

4. This cannot be attributed to Christianity as the hatred for the Jews was mainly secular. After all, I remember a quote from Hitler which said something along the lines of "Christianity is a weak religion". He obviously didn't agree with its pacifist message.


I never said everyone benefits from Christianity, but the charity, hope, peace, goodwill, and love among true Christians far surpasses the suffering brought by false Christians.And how many of those are there, pray tell? After all, there are Protestants, Catholics, Evangelists, Eastern Orthodox...define "True Christian."

Atheism is not a religion. Its followers have nothing to believe in, hence nothing to kill for. But atheism definitely is not communism. You can have religious communism and atheist capitalism. In fact, it would seem that communism, which divides the community money equally among everyone including the widows, orphans, poor, etc. would be a good deal more Christian than anything else. ;)




True, which is why Christian Communism (such as the early church) is desireable, whereas atheist Communism (far more suspect to corruption, as there is no spiritual deterrence) is not.

Soviet Russia and China abolished religion for one reason: Dependence on God instead of upon the State would lead to insurrections. Which is why the pseudo-communist form of dictatorship necessitates atheism. If the people still had spiritual attachment, they could resist the opression.

EXACTLY, the pseudo-communist societies, yes they all had atheism as an integral part, but you cant argue that the principle of communism does, because, well it doest. It was an action stemmin from autocracy, not communism.

Soviet Russia and China abolished religion for one reason: Dependence on God instead of upon the State would lead to insurrections.Please explain this. Why?

Over 500,000 Muslims and Jews were slaughtered unnecessarily in the Crusades.

A varying degree of wars was fought over hundreds of years. To claim all of the slaughter on the Christian is the currently politically acceptable version, but not the historical one.

A similar number was killed, tortured, or deported during the Inquisition.

Was not. Not even close. The inquisition was internal purging, wasn't nice whatsoever, but nothing like you are trying to make it out to be.

Up to 12 million people were killed by far-right-wing Christian Nazis under Hitler.

Far Right Wing Christian? Hitler was a anti-Christian socialist. What ARE you talking about?

And how many of those are there, pray tell? After all, there are Protestants, Catholics, Evangelists, Eastern Orthodox...define "True Christian."



Those who follow the teachings of Christ and the apostles, instead of the creeds of men.


Matthew 7:13-14 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


Matthew 7:15-20 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.


2 Peter 2:1 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.



1 John 4:1 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

True, which is why Christian Communism (such as the early church) is desireable, whereas atheist Communism (far more suspect to corruption, as there is no spiritual deterrence) is not.

OK now, so atheists are more easily corrputible than religous types huh?

Please explain this. Why?



Because those regimes wanted your full allegiance to the State, not to God or any other.

Atheism is not a religion. Its followers have nothing to believe in, hence nothing to kill for. But atheism definitely is not communism. You can have religious communism and atheist capitalism. In fact, it would seem that communism, which divides the community money equally among everyone including the widows, orphans, poor, etc. would be a good deal more Christian than anything else. ;)

Atheists have nothing at all. They can claim anything because they lack doctrine. They obviously have things to kill for otherwise atheist societies would not have killed anyone. Atheists do believe in things otherwise they would be nihilists who believe in nothing.

Communism is in some ways a good christian goal but the Communists in the USSR and the like wanted to purge religion and that heresy for their atheist utopia.

Besides, the attacks on religion are rather stupid anyway. There is no atheist doctrine so attacking religion then claiming the communists were not doing something out of atheism is like saying something is more dangerous than nothing. Something is more dangerous than nothing because something has substance while nothing is nothing.

What benefit is there to religion?

OK now, so atheists are more easily corrputible than religous types huh?




I suppose so, one lacks an essential deterrent to corruption. Not that I am saying that all atheists are incapable of being moral, but, logically, they are more susceptible to it.

What benefit is there to religion?



Oh, perhaps salvation, hope, joy, peace, patience, fortitude, etc.

OK now, so atheists are more easily corrputible than religous types huh?Apparently, since the religious believe in righteousness &c. while atheists have no morality whatsoever, atheists can be corrupted to evil ideologies like nihilism while the religious types keep on believing in God and goodness. Yeah, right. :rolleyes:

Oh, perhaps salvation, hope, joy, peace, patience, fortitude, etc.

Except for the former, all of the others can be self taught. Religion simply says "You must do such and such, or name of bad consequence here will happen."

Oh, perhaps salvation, hope, joy, peace, patience, fortitude, etc.

None of which is the exclusive pervue of organised worship.

Except for the former, all of the others can be self taught. Religion simply says "You must do such and such, or name of bad consequence here will happen."



But they would have no divine basis, and would, therefore, be willing self-delusion.

Oh, perhaps salvation, hope, joy, peace, patience, fortitude, etc.

And these can't be had if you are an atheist?

I suppose so, one lacks an essential deterrent to corruption. Not that I am saying that all atheists are incapable of being moral, but, logically, they are more susceptible to it.

Alright I'l admit that the chances of an Atheist being corrupted are good, any more so than a theist i dont know.
But what of theists? are they incorruptible because of there faith?
Would they say betray those who support them if they believe it to be there gods will?
Would they kill in there gods name even if the killing could be atrocious to there said deity?

Because those regimes wanted your full allegiance to the State, not to God or any other.Ok...so you can't believe in God and the State at the same time? :confused:

And btw, blind loyalty to the state is not communism. It's called fascism, and we all agree it's evil and completely against all moral standards (I hope). Communism, on the other hand, can be quite good if it's practiced properly in a small enough community.

But they would have no divine basis, and would, therefore, be willing self-delusion.

So...My chosen morals are a form of self delusion because I don't follow a mainstream religion? I think not. They're an informed choice, based upon how I've decided I'm willing to treat others, and be treated, and affect the world around me.

None of which is the exclusive pervue of organised worship.



Actually, the New Testament teaches organized worship.

What benefit is there to religion?

What benefits are there to atheism?

The question is stupid and rhetorical. I could go on about how religion gives purpose, morality, after-life, community, hope, and all of that stuff. Then you could deny every bit saying atheism is all special and important. Religion obviously has good points otherwise there would not be so many religious people or people who seek religion.

It is common for people to join cults, they have not been indoctrinated as a child into thinking in that way yet they seek the benefits of religion so much that they are willing to be indoctrinated into a fake one just to have purpose(scientology is probably worse than most other current religions yet it is the newest and its followers usually join of their own accord and pay ridiculously high prices to help some dead guys get rich quick scheme)

So...My chosen morals are a form of self delusion because I don't follow a mainstream religion? I think not. They're an informed choice, based upon how I've decided I'm willing to treat others, and be treated, and affect the world around me.



But yours bring benefit to yourself in return. Christianity espouses selfless sacrifice.

I suppose so, one lacks an essential deterrent to corruption. Not that I am saying that all atheists are incapable of being moral, but, logically, they are more susceptible to it.
I disagree. I see plenty of religious people who are quite corrupt. God doesn't seem to deter them.

No.

All you have to do is look at events like 9-11 and the Crusades to see that.

Hah, atheist regimes have killed far more individuals than any religion could ever consider doing. I suppose we could ask the question "Does the good brought by atheism outweigh the bad?". Generalizations like these have no place on these forums.


What? I have no idea what you are talking about, the biggest genocides to hit history were for everything but atheism. Holy Wars, Noah's Flood, G.W. Bush ( :p ) Isreal's problems... that is a lot of atheism there... yeah :rolleyes: plus who knows how many other attacks in the bible that killed over hundreds of people.

Ok...so you can't believe in God and the State at the same time? :confused:

And btw, blind loyalty to the state is not communism. It's called fascism, and we all agree it's evil and completely against all moral standards (I hope). Communism, on the other hand, can be quite good if it's practiced properly in a small enough community.



According to Russia and China, you couldn't be loyal to God and the State, it was one or the other :)

What? I have no idea what you are talking about, the biggest genocides to hit history were for everything but atheism. Holy Wars, Noah's Flood, G.W. Bush ( :p ) Isreal's problems... that is a lot of atheism there... yeah :rolleyes: plus who knows how many other attacks in the bible that killed over hundreds of people.



Noah's Flood doesn't count, the world had become so corrupt that there was no alternative...and, as I have stated earlier, Holy War is an oxymoron.

But yours bring benefit to yourself in return. Christianity espouses selfless sacrifice.

I'm perfectly capable of selfless sacrifice, and my friends know this. However, with random strangers, I am far less likely to help them, I'll admit. One thing I hate about organized religions is that a lot of people blindly follow them, instead of making informed choices as to whether their beliefs are truly conducive to their own well being and happiness.

I disagree. I see plenty of religious people who are quite corrupt. God doesn't seem to deter them.



We all make mistakes and we must repent for them. However, if they persist in their corruption, then you cannot call them truly religious. They are hypocrites, like the scribes and Pharisees.

Oh, perhaps salvation, hope, joy, peace, patience, fortitude, etc.
Salvation? I don't feel I need any.

The rest I get from other sources.

I'm perfectly capable of selfless sacrifice, and my friends know this. However, with random strangers, I am far less likely to help them, I'll admit. One thing I hate about organized religions is that a lot of people blindly follow them, instead of making informed choices as to whether their beliefs are truly conducive to their own well being and happiness.



We do not live for ourselves but for others and Christ. We place the happiness and well-being of others above our own, for we shall be amply rewarded in the afterlife :)

Noah's Flood doesn't count, the world had become so corrupt that there was no alternative...and, as I have stated earlier, Holy War is an oxymoron.

Somehow i doubt there was no alternative than killing EVERYONE hes supposed to be omnipotent isnt he?
holy war isnt an oxymoron at least according to the bible, what about all the times the hebrews faught the philistines? coulnt that be a holy war?

Salvation? I don't feel I need any.

The rest I get from other sources.




But, like all things temporal, those sources will come to an end. Set your mind on the eternal, not the perishable.

So...My chosen morals are a form of self delusion because I don't follow a mainstream religion? I think not. They're an informed choice, based upon how I've decided I'm willing to treat others, and be treated, and affect the world around me.

All human beliefs and morality could be attributed to self delusion in some way or another. God could be a form of human arrogance, some people would claim that humanity would say that it was shat out of an almighty moose in order to claim its own importance. Morality itself could be seen as some self delusion, what makes a person different than a rock or a cow? We are very similar in some ways because people, rocks and cows all react to our environments though in the case of the rock it is simple physics and in the case of the person and the cow it is based on advanced biochemical psychology. But all 3 are made of matter just having differing structures.

See nihilism and try to understand that reality itself is a joke.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

We all make mistakes and we must repent for them. However, if they persist in their corruption, then you cannot call them truly religious. They are hypocrites, like the scribes and Pharisees.

We don't have to repent for anything, unless, 1)We believe in an afterlife, 2) We believe that it is mandatory to repent to end up in a particular portion of it, and 3)We want to end up in said portion of it.

The Bible says that no one is beyond redemption so long as they ask for it in earnest, which means that one can continue to repeat their "immoral" acts, so long as they are sincere in their regret for committing them.

If it wasn't for religion, nobody in history would ever have died...

You're thinking of borders. Worst thing we ever invented, borders realy helped us to start thinking of "us" and "them".

We do not live for ourselves but for others and Christ. We place the happiness and well-being of others above our own, for we shall be amply rewarded in the afterlife :)

And it's that reward dangling in front of you that keeps you sacrificing..And there's your ulterior motive. Truly selfless sacrifice wouldn't have such a reward. People would do things because they want to, and that they don't mind suffering for others, not because they suffer, knowing that they'll be repaid when they die.

Somehow i doubt there was no alternative than killing EVERYONE hes supposed to be omnipotent isnt he?
holy war isnt an oxymoron at least according to the bible, what about all the times the hebrews faught the philistines? coulnt that be a holy war?



Actually, God does have limitations. He cannot do evil. I saw an article on it somewhere, I'm looking for it now...

But they would have no divine basis, and would, therefore, be willing self-delusion.You don't need a divine basis for morals. I have them and don't believe in any deities (except myself of course:)).

No if it wasnt for mortality noone would ever have died

Actually, God does have limitations. He cannot do evil. I saw an article on it somewhere, I'm looking for it now...

Will not, you mean. Cannot would mean there was one thing not in his ability, and therefore, render him not omnipotent.

We don't have to repent for anything, unless, 1)We believe in an afterlife, 2) We believe that it is mandatory to repent to end up in a particular portion of it, and 3)We want to end up in said portion of it.

The Bible says that no one is beyond redemption so long as they ask for it in earnest, which means that one can continue to repeat their "immoral" acts, so long as they are sincere in their regret for committing them.



Forgiveness is not granted to those who willingly sin knowing then can repent of it in the future. It doesn't work that way.

The Bible says that no one is beyond redemption so long as they ask for it in earnest, which means that one can continue to repeat their "immoral" acts, so long as they are sincere in their regret for committing them.

All right that seems to be bullshit. If you are sincere then you will not commit the crime again. If you are not entirely sincere then you will continue committing the crime. Sincerity requires a devotion to not commit the same crime again.

Noah's Flood doesn't count, the world had become so corrupt that there was no alternative...and, as I have stated earlier, Holy War is an oxymoron.



Wait wait wait... it doesn't count? Why not? If he is so powerful, he could have just altered their minds or warned them, not kill everything except one little boat. Seriously, it is sad enough the the plants managed to survive under all that water...

Holy War is not an oxymoron, Peaceful War is...

Learn the real defiintion

Forgiveness is not granted to those who willingly sin knowing then can repent of it in the future. It doesn't work that way.

What if it's out of compulsion, then?

Actually, God does have limitations. He cannot do evil. I saw an article on it somewhere, I'm looking for it now...

He cant do evil? what do you call the tower of babble? when i read that all i understood it as was divine spite.

Will not, you mean. Cannot would mean there was one thing not in his ability, and therefore, render him not omnipotent.



God is never said to be omnipotent, the word used in the original Hebrew translates to "almight" and not "omnipotent".

Holy War is an oxymoron.Then why have there been so many of them?

He cant do evil? what do you call the tower of babble? when i read that all i understood it as was divine spite.



Evil? He was punishing man for his arrogance by changing the language spoken by different individuals.

And these can't be had if you are an atheist?

well, if you're not a Christian then there is nothing to be saved FROM . . .

He cant do evil? what do you call the tower of babble? when i read that all i understood it as was divine spite.Here I beg to disagree, he was simply teaching those little humans a lesson. However, God has done a lot of other strange things...like authorizing people to kill in his name after he gave them the commandments.... old testament. He authorized his own "Holy Wars". :eek:

God is never said to be omnipotent, the word used in the original Hebrew translates to "almight" and not "omnipotent".
This is the american heritage dictionary of the english language's definition of almighty;

Almighty
1. All powerful, omnipotent

Here I beg to disagree, he was simply teaching those little humans a lesson. However, God has done a lot of other strange things...like authorizing people to kill in his name after he gave them the commandments.... old testament. He authorized his own "Holy Wars". :eek:

He authorized the stoning of children who argue with their parents...
He authorized the rape of virgins...
He authorized the selling of daughters as sex slaves...
He authorized slavery in general...

Must I go on? seriously...

Wait wait wait... it doesn't count? Why not? If he is so powerful, he could have just altered their minds or warned them, not kill everything except one little boat. Seriously, it is sad enough the the plants managed to survive under all that water...

Holy War is not an oxymoron, Peaceful War is...

Learn the real defiintion



1. As the creator of life, He reserves the right to take it.

2. He sent repeated warnings that were ignored.

3. Altering their minds would defeat the entire purpose of His creation.

Evil? He was punishing man for his arrogance by changing the language spoken by different individuals.

They described them as arrogant, all they did was build a tall building, and all of a sudden jehova feels threatend so, he destroys there society because noone can understand anyone.

My two pennies here:

I think that having personal faith is a good thing, but religion is a bad one.

It's a good thing to have faith, to have a system of belief that can guide you in your daily life, a rule set.
It starts turning evil when that suddenly becomes organised religion, when people try to dictate others what rules to live by.
Overall, I think religions have caused this species more harm than good at any one time ever since the concept was discovered.

3. Altering their minds would defeat the entire purpose of His creation.

and killing them all wouldn't?

Evil? He was punishing man for his arrogance by changing the language spoken by different individuals.If God is good, then why are there natural disasters, genocide, war, pollution, and mean-spirited people? I'll refute a few answers in advance.

God works in mysterious ways. That's dodging the question, aka BS. Not acceptable.

To punish us for our arrogance. If He's so mighty, couldn't he have made us a humble people by nature, instead of an arrogant one? And besides, He's also punishing the poor defenceless animals, bugs, plants, microorganisms, and fungi. How arrogant were they, may I ask?

Those are all good too in their way. Who does genocide benefit? Some people get killed, others are saddled with guilt for the rest of their lives. And natural disasters? Besides altering the landscape, as change is good, I can't see what else they're good for.

Myrth. This is just silly. ;)

What if it's out of compulsion, then?

Then you have not been trying hard enough. A sin is a sin, to be so weak is probably a sin in itself.

He authorized the stoning of children who argue with their parents...
He authorized the rape of virgins...
He authorized the selling of daughters as sex slaves...
He authorized slavery in general...

Must I go on? seriously...



1. Try reading the actual passage before trying to belittle the act of irreversible rebellion.

2. No, not everything recorded in the Bible is approved.

3. See above.

4. Being a slave under the Hebrew system would actually be pretty nice...especially with their rigid code of treatment.

If God is good, then why are there natural disasters, genocide, war, pollution, and mean-spirited people? I'll refute a few answers in advance.

God works in mysterious ways. That's dodging the question, aka BS. Not acceptable.

To punish us for our arrogance. If He's so mighty, couldn't he have made us a humble people by nature, instead of an arrogant one? And besides, He's also punishing the poor defenceless animals, bugs, plants, microorganisms, and fungi. How arrogant were they, may I ask?

Those are all good too in their way. Who does genocide benefit? Some people get killed, others are saddled with guilt for the rest of their lives. And natural disasters? Besides altering the landscape, as change is good, I can't see what else they're good for.

Myrth. This is just silly. ;)

Well Czardas, it appears we make a good team :p nice to see the sword of whatever the hell it was called pointed at some one else this time.

If God is good, then why are there natural disasters, genocide, war, pollution, and mean-spirited people? I'll refute a few answers in advance.

God works in mysterious ways. That's dodging the question, aka BS. Not acceptable.

To punish us for our arrogance. If He's so mighty, couldn't he have made us a humble people by nature, instead of an arrogant one? And besides, He's also punishing the poor defenceless animals, bugs, plants, microorganisms, and fungi. How arrogant were they, may I ask?

Those are all good too in their way. Who does genocide benefit? Some people get killed, others are saddled with guilt for the rest of their lives. And natural disasters? Besides altering the landscape, as change is good, I can't see what else they're good for.

Myrth. This is just silly. ;)



Myrth :D

But seriously, we brought evil into the world when we first sinned. God did not create evil and suffering, our actions did.

He authorized the stoning of children who argue with their parents...
He authorized the rape of virgins...
He authorized the selling of daughters as sex slaves...
He authorized slavery in general...

Must I go on? seriously...Thanks, I haven't finished the Bible yet. ;)

4. Being a slave under the Hebrew system would actually be pretty nice...especially with their rigid code of treatment.

I just don't believe it... you have stooped to endorse SLAVERY??? :eek:

4. Being a slave under the Hebrew system would actually be pretty nice...especially with their rigid code of treatment.

YAY! I wanna be a slave too mommy!!

Nope just cant picture it.

Myrth :D

But seriously, we brought evil into the world when we first sinned. God did not create evil and suffering, our actions did.

Hang on... god created the world (the entire world, everything and all) and god created us. Plus, god is supposed to be inherently good.
But we created evil out of thin air?
Sorry, I don't buy it.

Myrth :D

But seriously, we brought evil into the world when we first sinned. God did not create evil and suffering, our actions did.
So because we sinned there's forest fires? I don't get the connection...

and killing them all wouldn't?



No...they would not change, God punishes sin and reward obedience. In this case, he chose to expedite the process and start over instead of allowing them to propagate, which would cause more souls to be lost.

1. Try reading the actual passage before trying to belittle the act of irreversible rebellion.

2. No, not everything recorded in the Bible is approved.

3. See above.

4. Being a slave under the Hebrew system would actually be pretty nice...especially with their rigid code of treatment.

1. That is what is approved... Jesus even is insulted once because (forgot the names) didn't kill their children

2. Can't pick and choose

3. Quote you :p

4. They would have been better just getting a job

So because we sinned there's forest fires? I don't get the connection...



There was no pain or suffering in the world prior to the Fall. Natural disasters, disease, wars, et al were all nonexistent.

Myrth :D

But seriously, we brought evil into the world when we first sinned. God did not create evil and suffering, our actions did.

Doesnt it say that god made EVERYthing?
And didnt god mention his creation of the devil when speaking to moses?

I would like to make a point I didn't see posted. You cannot compare the amount of people killed by a theist society with the amount of people killed by an atheist society because historically there have been more theist than atheist.

Up to 12 million people were killed by far-right-wing Christian Nazis under Hitler
Nazis killed many Christian in the death camps as well...
And didnt god mention his creation of the devil when speaking to moses?
Ah, but he created the devil before the devil was evil.

But seriously, we brought evil into the world when we first sinned. God did not create evil and suffering, our actions did.But if He was omnipotent, couldn't he have anticipated our actions, and hence not planted the tree in Eden/made it inaccessible or inedible to man? Or couldn't he have worked our minds in such a way that we wouldn't bring evil into the world?

nice to see the sword of whatever the hell it was called pointed at some one else this time.For the record, it's properly called "The Long-bladed Sharp-pointed Keen-edged Harrowed Sword of DOOM", abbreviated to "Jimbo". :D

There was no pain or suffering in the world prior to the Fall. Natural disasters, disease, wars, et al were all nonexistent.And how did sinning bring forth these things? I don't think that human error causes plate tectonics, so why do we have earthquakes?

If it wasn't for religion, nobody in history would ever have died...

of course not... no war was ever waged for nationalism, race, land, wealth, or pure greed for power :rolleyes:

Religion is also responsible for some of mans greatest acheivements in art, culture, engineering, and humanity toward others. Those who can't see the good in religion choose not to see it.

1. That is what is approved... Jesus even is insulted once because (forgot the names) didn't kill their children

2. Can't pick and choose

3. Quote you :p

4. They would have been better just getting a job



1. Citation please

2. It's a valid point, no sin is condoned in the Bible

3. Not justified either

4. I'd take slavery under a very kind and generous master over work under a cruel, wordly man :p

There was no pain or suffering in the world prior to the Fall. Natural disasters, disease, wars, et al were all nonexistent.So...we caused natural disasters? Or did God cause them to get rid of us? After all, we definitely don't have that power nowadays. :p


Oh wait, God can't do any evil...so how could he have caused the tsunami. I'd forgotten. In that case, who did?!

And how did sinning bring forth these things? I don't think that human error causes plate tectonics, so why do we have earthquakes?



Read the Genesis account of what happened after the Fall, man made life much harder on himself by sinning.

I would like to make a point I didn't see posted. You cannot compare the amount of people killed by a theist society with the amount of people killed by an atheist society because historically there have been more theist than atheist.


Nazis killed many Christian in the death camps as well...
Meh, Voxio's right. A lot of top notch Nazis had the fantasy of reviving Germanic tribal religions. Christians can only really be blamed as a whole for not doing enough to prevent it (while some of the noblest people at the time were Christians). The only ones I know of that helped willingly were the Deutsche Christen which believed in Hitler being the Messiah.

But if He was omnipotent, couldn't he have anticipated our actions, and hence not planted the tree in Eden/made it inaccessible or inedible to man? Or couldn't he have worked our minds in such a way that we wouldn't bring evil into the world?

For the record, it's properly called "The Long-bladed Sharp-pointed Keen-edged Harrowed Sword of DOOM", abbreviated to "Jimbo". :D

Free choice and all. Wanted to see if we'd resist tempation on our own, from what I've been told.

I'm calling the damned sword "Fred". It's shorter, and more befitting a sword.

Meh, Voxio's right. A lot of top notch Nazis had the fantasy of reviving Germanic tribal religions. Christians can only really be blamed as a whole for not doing enough to prevent it (while some of the noblest people at the time were Christians). The only ones I know of that helped willingly were the Deutsche Christen which believed in Hitler being the Messiah.



But, in order for Hilter to be the Messiah, these people would have to previously been Jews...and we all know what he did with the Jews :p

1. Citation please

2. It's a valid point, no sin is condoned in the Bible

3. Not justified either

4. I'd take slavery under a very kind and generous master over work under a cruel, wordly man :p

1. Mmkay, I will go look for it later, I will just Telegram you it or something.

4. Ahh yes, but if you have a cruel slave owner, you can't quit, with a job you can.

of course not... no war was ever waged for nationalism, race, land, wealth, or pure greed for power :rolleyes:

Religion is also responsible for some of mans greatest acheivements in art, culture, engineering, and humanity toward others. Those who can't see the good in religion choose not to see it.I recognize the good caused by religion. I love the St. Matthew Passion (J.S. Bach), for example. But I think the evil caused by religion is overall worse than the good (millions of murders? genocide? war? jihad? 9/11?).

2. It's a valid point, no sin is condoned in the Bible



SLAVERY MURDER RAPE PUBLIC STONINGS! oh i forgot since its condoned by god its not a sin, hey i heard my aunt worked on saturday! better get the execution pit ready.

But if He was omnipotent, couldn't he have anticipated our actions, and hence not planted the tree in Eden/made it inaccessible or inedible to man? Or couldn't he have worked our minds in such a way that we wouldn't bring evil into the world?

Of course.. but then man really woudln't have the ability to "choose" would he. That ultimaly is said to be our greatest gift is it not ? To commit evil is easy, but to do good is said to be the hardest thing.

I just don't believe it... you have stooped to endorse SLAVERY??? :eek:



No, we aren't Israel under the guide of God Himself. Slavery under any other conditions would be wrong.

SLAVERY MURDER RAPE PUBLIC STONINGS! oh i forgot since its condoned by god its not a sin, hey i heard my aunt worked on saturday! better get the execution pit ready.


Sunday :rolleyes:

SLAVERY MURDER RAPE PUBLIC STONINGS! oh i forgot since its condoned by god its not a sin, hey i heard my aunt worked on saturday! better get the execution pit ready.

point out where these are condoned, rather then merely pointed out as a reality of life at the time. Read his words carefuly before you spew ignorance.

Read the Genesis account of what happened after the Fall, man made life much harder on himself by sinning.Meh, I don't take the OT literal. 'Specialy not since I prefer to interpret "Though shalt not covet thy neighbor's ox" as to cover other items of property.

Hang on... god created the world (the entire world, everything and all) and god created us. Plus, god is supposed to be inherently good.
But we created evil out of thin air?
Sorry, I don't buy it.



Evil is the one creation that can be attributed to something other than God. Think of it as our legacy (not a very good one either) :p

Sunday :rolleyes:

No the sabbath is saturday.

I recognize the good caused by religion. I love the St. Matthew Passion (J.S. Bach), for example. But I think the evil caused by religion is overall worse than the good (millions of murders? genocide? war? jihad? 9/11?).

So you think these events wouldn't have occured absent of religion ? please, it is naive to think man at his worst could not come up with an equally ignorant excuse for murder then "in the name of god". Absent of god, it would be "for my country", "for my race", or plainly said "for me"!

No the sabbath is saturday.

not for christians

Those who can't see the good in religion choose not to see it.


I see the good. But I also see the bad.

Evil is the one creation that can be attributed to something other than God. Think of it as our legacy (not a very good one either) :p

No act of creation is attributable to anyone other than God. That's just wishful thinking talking.

1. Mmkay, I will go look for it later, I will just Telegram you it or something.

4. Ahh yes, but if you have a cruel slave owner, you can't quit, with a job you can.



1. Good luck lol

4. Such slave owners would most likely be punished by society and definitely punished by God. Also, we are to be longsuffering, hence where in the New Testament slaves are told to obey their masters while on earth.

Free choice and all. Wanted to see if we'd resist tempation on our own, from what I've been told. But if he already knew what would happen, why did he do it? It's like asking a question you already know the answer to.

I'm calling the damned sword "Fred". It's shorter, and more befitting a sword.No. I insist that you call it by its full name! Or I shall smite you down with the Awful Long-bladed Sharp-pointed Keen-edged Harrowed Sword of DOOM! It's 88 meters long, with a point 0.6 nanometers across. Its blade is 4 nanometers at the narrowest edge. It is 11 meters in width and can kill up to 400 people with each stroke. Please treat it with adequate respect. ;)

No act of creation is attributable to anyone other than God. That's just wishful thinking talking.



God created free will. We used our free will to create evil, as did Satan. It cannot be attributed to God.

not for christians

No but for jews in the old testement, the book that starts with a z or something (excuse my citing ignorance i havnt read the bible in a long time) they advocate killing someone for working on the sabbath, which in the old testament was saturday.

But if he already knew what would happen, why did he do it? It's like asking a question you already know the answer to.

No. I insist that you call it by its full name! Or I shall smite you down with the Awful Long-bladed Sharp-pointed Keen-edged Harrowed Sword of DOOM! It's 88 meters long, with a point 0.6 nanometers across. Its blade is 4 nanometers at the narrowest edge. It is 11 meters in width and can kill up to 400 people with each stroke. Please treat it with adequate respect. ;)



Why are we assuming God chooses to know things beforehand anyway? Lol :D

1. Good luck lol

4. Such slave owners would most likely be punished by society and definitely punished by God. Also, we are to be longsuffering, hence where in the New Testament slaves are told to obey their masters while on earth.

1. Thanks? :p

4. (which I shall now label 2) That is the thing, slave owners should have been punished, good or bad, but it went untouched to many a year later.

But if he already knew what would happen, why did he do it? It's like asking a question you already know the answer to.

No. I insist that you call it by its full name! Or I shall smite you down with the Awful Long-bladed Sharp-pointed Keen-edged Harrowed Sword of DOOM! It's 88 meters long, with a point 0.6 nanometers across. Its blade is 4 nanometers at the narrowest edge. It is 11 meters in width and can kill up to 400 people with each stroke. Please treat it with adequate respect. ;)

Boredom, I suppose. What the hell else are you gonna do to spice up life when you've supposedly ( so some say) only created one sentient species and nothing else in the Universe?

Pfft. That's nothing. Scientists have managed to turn the massive size of my ego into a quantum singularity that acts as portable body shield, impenetrable against all harmful things. All 'cause I think I'm pretty. So, Fred it is.

God created free will. We used our free will to create evil, as did Satan. It cannot be attributed to God.

God created Satan. Satan can be attributed to God. Satan did not create anything. God did. God created evil.

No but for jews in the old testement, the book that starts with a z or something (excuse my citing ignorance i havnt read the bible in a long time) they advocate killing someone for working on the sabbath, which in the old testament was saturday.



The Sabbath was a Holy Day and working on it instead of observing it was putting your wishes before God. Christ abolished it with the New Law.

Why are we assuming God chooses to know things beforehand anyway? Lol :D

because if he knew things after, he would be learning, meaning he isn't omnipotent, thus making the current definition wrong

Why are we assuming God chooses to know things beforehand anyway? Lol :DBecause he's omnipotent, which means he knows everything—past, present, and future. ((A Dumbledore or Obi-Wan figure for those HP or SW geeks among you. :D)) Almighty = omnipotent. No question. :)

God created Satan. Satan can be attributed to God. Satan did not create anything. God did. God created evil.



Free will may have led to Satan's creation of evil, but God was not responsible for it. God gave free will and Satan chose to exercise his free will and create evil, therefore Satan is entirely responsible.

Because he's omnipotent, which means he knows everything—past, present, and future. ((A Dumbledore or Obi-Wan figure for those HP or SW geeks among you. :D)) Almighty = omnipotent. No question. :)

beat you! haha

Because he's omnipotent, which means he knows everything—past, present, and future. ((A Dumbledore or Obi-Wan figure for those HP or SW geeks among you. :D)) Almighty = omnipotent. No question. :)



Omnipotence =/= omniscience, and He does not necessarily have to choose to have prior knowledge of an event. After all, it's all up to Him :D

Because he's omnipotent, which means he knows everything—past, present, and future. ((A Dumbledore or Obi-Wan figure for those HP or SW geeks among you. :D)) Almighty = omnipotent. No question. :)

A better word is omnicient for these thingums, it means all knowing, well i shall return but a sinfully delicious sandwich is calling my name.

Because he's omnipotent, which means he knows everything—past, present, and future. ((A Dumbledore or Obi-Wan figure for those HP or SW geeks among you. :D)) Almighty = omnipotent. No question. :)

No, that's omnscient. Omnipotent means you can do anything, omniscient means you know everything. Bad Czardas.

Omnipetent, omnipresent, creator of SpaceTime, creator of the Multiverse, and yet not responsible for evil?

Bull-dada. You don't cherry-pick achievement on a cosmic scale.

Pfft. That's nothing. Scientists have managed to turn the massive size of my ego into a quantum singularity that acts as portable body shield, impenetrable against all harmful things. All 'cause I think I'm pretty. So, Fred it is.You blasphemer! I hereby turn you into a badger!









A badger, dammit!! Why isn't it working?!

1. Thanks? :p

4. (which I shall now label 2) That is the thing, slave owners should have been punished, good or bad, but it went untouched to many a year later.



Slavery in of itself is not evil, it is the abuse of one's slaves that becomes evil.


Edit: And before everyone pounces me as evil, remember that slavery is wrong when not authorized and regulated by God. Which is why slavery should be and is outlawed today.

If God is good, then why are there natural disasters, genocide, war, pollution, and mean-spirited people? I'll refute a few answers in advance.

God works in mysterious ways. That's dodging the question, aka BS. Not acceptable.

To punish us for our arrogance. If He's so mighty, couldn't he have made us a humble people by nature, instead of an arrogant one? And besides, He's also punishing the poor defenceless animals, bugs, plants, microorganisms, and fungi. How arrogant were they, may I ask?

Those are all good too in their way. Who does genocide benefit? Some people get killed, others are saddled with guilt for the rest of their lives. And natural disasters? Besides altering the landscape, as change is good, I can't see what else they're good for.

Myrth. This is just silly. ;)

might be able to go on a long time about this, but i will give a short answer.
God's intent was never to make the universe perfect, that's what Revelations are for. He never ever described it as perfect, only "good" or "very good". God is perfect and is love. Christianity says the world was not meant to be morally or physically perfect, but instead to provide a place where His creatures can choose to love him... or reject him. to live with Him forever in a new, perfect universe, or reject Him and live apart from Him for eternity. It would not be possible to make this choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good choices.
And the killings all have something in common - power.
One man looking for more power. That's a huge problem. People trying to become more than God and look at the consequences - people die.
And nazis already had a reason to hate the Jews. At the end of WW1, jews had some of the highest authority in the German government and when they initiated surrender, that really pissed the Germans off. Especially the ones on the front lines. Hitler just took it quite a few steps further.
anyway, the actions of man would never turn me away from my religion.

No, that's omnscient. Omnipotent means you can do anything, omniscient means you know everything. Bad Czardas.But if he can do anything, that means he can know whatever he wants—or, anything. That means omnipotent = omniscient. Take that, Drache! :D

Well, I am out guys, good luck with this, if it is still running when I return, I will comment again, but I have places to go, food to eat...

Good luck, have fun!

If it wasn't for religion, nobody in history would ever have died...

Ha.
Ha ha.
Ha ha ha.

Sure, just keep on telling yourself that.

Anyway, religion led to the Renaissance (yes it did, by a not so complicated process, but as most of the time, I am lazy), which led to the other period (AOD), which led to the SR, and finally the Enlightenment, and IR. (I may have the SR and Enlightenment in the wrong order). Besides, Catholicism (which I am writing about, I could careless about the other achievements (except the Muslim's medicines etc)) preserved the Latin language (they taught it), made hospitals, laws (not all religious), and other things. I am just too lazy to remember.

Religion=
..
<
U
Jibean Smilie
Lack of Religion=
..
<
O
Jibean Gaspy( : eek : )

Slavery in of itself is not evil, it is the abuse of one's slaves that becomes evil.


Edit: And before everyone pounces me as evil, remember that slavery is wrong when not authorized and regulated by God. Which is why slavery should be and is outlawed today.

How might I ask does God regulate slavery???

Omnipetent, omnipresent, creator of SpaceTime, creator of the Multiverse, and yet not responsible for evil?

Bull-dada. You don't cherry-pick achievement on a cosmic scale.



The acts of the creation cannot be attributed to the Creator, if the creation has its own mind and own will.

But if he can do anything, that means he can know whatever he wants—or, anything. That means omnipotent = omniscient. Take that, Drache! :D

God is both innately (I just know alot, and can do almost everything (except create, I can only destroy (do not take out of the context I can do almost everything(Actually I should state, I can do everything except for driving well, draw well, create (unless it was created by a German)))).

Ha.
Ha ha.
Ha ha ha.

Sure, just keep on telling yourself that.

Anyway, religion led to the Renaissance (yes it did, by a not so complicated process, but as most of the time, I am lazy), which led to the other period (AOD), which led to the SR, and finally the Enlightenment, and IR. (I may have the SR and Enlightenment in the wrong order). Besides, Catholicism (which I am writing about, I could careless about the other achievements (except the Muslim's medicines etc)) preserved the Latin language (they taught it), made hospitals, laws (not all religious), and other things. I am just too lazy to remember.

Religion=
..
<
U
Jibean Smilie
Lack of Religion=
..
<
O
Jibean Gaspy( : eek : )



He wasn't really saying that, he was being satirical of those who do ;)

Free will may have led to Satan's creation of evil, but God was not responsible for it. God gave free will and Satan chose to exercise his free will and create evil, therefore Satan is entirely responsible.

There's a chilling thought. Why would God have given free will to Satan if God wasn't willing to play by his own rules and let Satan exercise that free will?

The only 'evil' Satan was responsible for was making use of what was given to him by God. And for that, he got slapped down hard.

No way. God went over the top in handing down his punishment, thus creating evil - the evil of the oppressor over the oppressed.

God deliberately precipitated a movement against himself, which through heavy-handedness in punishment begat the evil of the tyrant over his subjects.

Slavery in of itself is not evil, it is the abuse of one's slaves that becomes evil.


Edit: And before everyone pounces me as evil, remember that slavery is wrong when not authorized and regulated by God. Which is why slavery should be and is outlawed today.Re edit: But then how can slavery be good? God never in person authorized and regulated it. In fact, nothing has ever been proven to be authorized by God. Therefore, is nothing good? Is everything therefore evil, including perhaps God himself?!

You blasphemer! I hereby turn you into a badger!
*snip*
A badger, dammit!! Why isn't it working?!

Ego Shield.

But if he can do anything, that means he can know whatever he wants—or, anything. That means omnipotent = omniscient. Take that, Drache! :D

No, no. He could be able to do anything, without knowing what the hell he's doing, or how. Like..say..a certain politician we know about. *grins* Bam.

How might I ask does God regulate slavery???


Ephesians 6:5-9 5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Ha.
Ha ha.
Ha ha ha.

Sure, just keep on telling yourself that.

Anyway, religion led to the Renaissance (yes it did, by a not so complicated process, but as most of the time, I am lazy), which led to the other period (AOD), which led to the SR, and finally the Enlightenment, and IR. (I may have the SR and Enlightenment in the wrong order). Besides, Catholicism (which I am writing about, I could careless about the other achievements (except the Muslim's medicines etc)) preserved the Latin language (they taught it), made hospitals, laws (not all religious), and other things. I am just too lazy to remember.

Religion=
..
<
U
Jibean Smilie
Lack of Religion=
..
<
O
Jibean Gaspy( : eek : )

Ha.
Ha ha.
Ha ha ha.

Neo Rogolia showed me I am an idiot. Must hide.

There's a chilling thought. Why would God have given free will to Satan if God wasn't willing to play by his own rules and let Satan exercise that free will?

The only 'evil' Satan was responsible for was making use of what was given to him by God. And for that, he got slapped down hard.

No way. God went over the top in handing down his punishment, thus creating evil - the evil of the oppressor over the oppressed.

God deliberately precipitated a movement against himself, which through heavy-handedness in punishment begat the evil of the tyrant over his subjects.



He enabled free will so that those who truly loved him could be with him. Much better than being automatons, I might add. Also, Satan knew the will of God and he knew the consequences of transgression. It is called personal responsibility.

Ha.
Ha ha.
Ha ha ha.

Neo Rogolia showed me I am an idiot. Must hide.



S'ok, I've not recognized sarcasm many times myself :D

But, like all things temporal, those sources will come to an end. Set your mind on the eternal, not the perishable.
Nothing is eternal.

Ego Shield.Ha. You think I believe that? Remember that God gave you your ego shield, and only He can take it away. And since I'm God... *bam*. Badgerized! :D

No, no. He could be able to do anything, without knowing what the hell he's doing, or how. Like..say..a certain politician we know about. *grins* Bam.Oh, so that explains why he got born again...

Nothing is eternal.



God's mercy, justice, and love are eternal.

S'ok, I've not recognized sarcasm many times myself :D*points at siggy* You ought to learn. :p

Ha. You think I believe that? Remember that God gave you your ego shield, and only He can take it away. And since I'm God... *bam*. Badgerized! :D
Oh, so that explains why he got born again...



Could you turn me into a porcupine while you're at it? I've always wondered what it's like to be one :D

He enabled free will so that those who truly loved him could be with him. Much better than being robots, I might add. Also, Satan knew the will of God and he knew the consequences of transgression. It is called personal responsibility.

That's one interpretation. I say the whole thing was orchestrated to demonize free will by shifting blame for 'evil' away from its' creator - God.

That's one interpretation. I say the whole thing was orchestrated to demonize free will by shifting blame for 'evil' away from its' creator - God.



But God is incapable of evil, therefore that would not be possible.

Ha. You think I believe that? Remember that God gave you your ego shield, and only He can take it away. And since I'm God... *bam*. Badgerized! :D
Oh, so that explains why he got born again...

You're atheist, so you don't believe in yourself. Therefore, you don't exist, my ego shield still works, and I'm hallucinating.

Indeed. *smokes tobacco pipe*

God's mercy, justice, and love are eternal.Take out the first word and you'll have it right.

But God is incapable of evil, therefore that would not be possible.

Erm..No. God's capable of evil, just chooses not to. As I said, if God was incapable of something, he's not omnipotent, and thus, not almighty.

Evil? He was punishing man for his arrogance by changing the language spoken by different individuals.
Who is he, a being who demands constant worship and praise, to punish anyone for arrogance?

If I beleived in a god it certainly wouldn't be one as flawed as that.

Who is he, a being who demands constant worship and praise, to punish anyone for arrogance?

If I beleived in a god it certainly wouldn't be one as flawed as that.

Don't forget sentencing people to eternal damnation for temporal trangressions.

Could you turn me into a porcupine while you're at it? I've always wondered what it's like to be one :DLMAO, no I need you in human form...you'll be able to express your amusing opinions on me much more easily that way. :)

You're atheist, so you don't believe in yourself. Therefore, you don't exist, my ego shield still works, and I'm hallucinating.
I think I mentioned last night that I'm converting from atheism to egoism. I now believe in one omnipotent, all-merciful, all-powerful, all-knowing, almighty God: myself. :D

Re edit: But then how can slavery be good? God never in person authorized and regulated it. In fact, nothing has ever been proven to be authorized by God. Therefore, is nothing good? Is everything therefore evil, including perhaps God himself?!

Slavery is simply neutral, people serve other people.

If everything is evil then I think that it really does not matter one way or the other. If everything is evil then we are all going to hell. Mathematically, ∞ +/- x = ∞ and -∞ +/- x = -∞. Therefore life does not matter so long as we serve the lord. Finally, if God does not exist then death equalizes all men making the type of life that one lived pointless as x in all cases = 0. This leads to pascal's wager which is not flawed only misunderstood by most people in common debate because they do not understand what pascals entire message was (Pascal acknowledged that there would be some difficulty for an atheist, intellectual persuaded by this argument, in putting it into effect. Belief may not come. But in such a case, he said, one could begin by acting as if it had come — hear a mass, take holy water. Belief might then follow.)

Er, yes.
Organized religion does have a positive impact on the world particularly in the last century. Look at Pope John Paul's crusade against the communists and the creation of many christian run charities.
Forget the crusades etc, they were ages ago.
Right now, religion does good and the world would be a darker place without it.

But God is incapable of evil, therefore that would not be possible.

What about Job? That was pretty damned evil.

LMAO, no I need you in human form...you'll be able to express your amusing opinions on me much more easily that way. :)

No, no. Porcupine, I agree.

I think I mentioned last night that I'm converting from atheism to egoism. I now believe in one omnipotent, all-merciful, all-powerful, all-knowing, almighty God: myself. :D

Cite your source! *grins*

Who is he, a being who demands constant worship and praise, to punish anyone for arrogance? Obviously God is exempt from his own laws. After all, laws were made to be broken, weren't they? :)

Sunday :rolleyes:
No, Saturday. I honestly don't know where you damn christians get that sunday crap from.

I think I mentioned last night that I'm converting from atheism to egoism. I now believe in one omnipotent, all-merciful, all-powerful, all-knowing, almighty God: myself. :D

Well, your egoism could fall under the belief of solipsism. Solipsism is an interesting belief and one that can never be disproven in some ways.

No, no. Porcupine, I agree.Hey, who's the God here, eh? :p Maybe I'll let her be a porcupine in the next life. Who knows. :D



Cite your source! *grins*http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9283808&postcount=12

Well, your egoism could fall under the belief of solipsism. Solipsism is an interesting belief and one that can never be disproven in some ways.Yeah, I'll have to agree with you there. :p

point out where these are condoned, rather then merely pointed out as a reality of life at the time. Read his words carefuly before you spew ignorance.
Leviticus, maybe Deuteronomy.

Don't forget sentencing people to eternal damnation for temporal trangressions.



Any transgression, be it temporal or ethereal, against an eternal being is eternally evil. Which is why a perfectly holy Being cannot remain in the presence of sin and must, therefore, seperate the imperfect from Himself. No man, save through Christ's sacrifice, could possibly expect to be in the presence of God, no matter how "moral" they may have led their lives. This passage clearly sums up my message:


Romans 3:21-31 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

He enabled free will so that those who truly loved him could be with him. Much better than being automatons, I might add. Also, Satan knew the will of God and he knew the consequences of transgression. It is called personal responsibility.

Personally, i'd rather have a bunch of automatons who worship me devoutly then a bunch of creatures able to make there own choice who chose to kill in my name.

not to mention all the ones that don't even believe i exist

Slavery is simply neutral, people serve other people.

If everything is evil then I think that it really does not matter one way or the other. If everything is evil then we are all going to hell. Mathematically, ∞ +/- x = ∞ and -∞ +/- x = -∞. Therefore life does not matter so long as we serve the lord. Finally, if God does not exist then death equalizes all men making the type of life that one lived pointless as x in all cases = 0. This leads to pascal's wager which is not flawed only misunderstood by most people in common debate because they do not understand what pascals entire message was (Pascal acknowledged that there would be some difficulty for an atheist, intellectual persuaded by this argument, in putting it into effect. Belief may not come. But in such a case, he said, one could begin by acting as if it had come — hear a mass, take holy water. Belief might then follow.)

Pascals' Wager is flawed. Fatally. Clicky. (http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html)

No, Saturday. I honestly don't know where you damn christians get that sunday crap from.



We celebrate Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week, which is Sunday.

Hey, who's the God here, eh? :p Maybe I'll let her be a porcupine in the next life. Who knows. :D


http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9283808&postcount=12

Damn it. I was counting on you to be lazy.

And I've been saying I'm God for the past few years. Even got me a few followers.

Personally, i'd rather have a bunch of automatons who worship me devoutly then a bunch of creatures able to make there own choice who chose to kill in my name.



Worship would not be devout, as devotion requires sincerity and earnestness which free will is imperative to.

And I've been saying I'm God for the past few years. Even got me a few followers.

Hey, you said I was god!

Who is he, a being who demands constant worship and praise, to punish anyone for arrogance?

If I beleived in a god it certainly wouldn't be one as flawed as that.



Because a perfect Being deserves worship and praise while a feeble, finite, imperfect being does not.

What about Job? That was pretty damned evil.



1. God gives and God takes, nobody truly owns anything as all things are granted to us by God

2. Even so, God didn't do it, Satan did :p

We celebrate Christ's resurrection on the first day of the week, which is Sunday.I thought we celebrated his resurrection on Easter.

And the first day of the week is Monday to us working peoples. ;)

And I've been saying I'm God for the past few years. Even got me a few followers.Ha, I have >9 billion followers. How many do you have? 3? ;)

Hey, you said I was god!

a god. I'm God. Y'know, the guy in charge of all the gods. *grins*

Leviticus, maybe Deuteronomy.

Yes leviticus, thats the one i meant when i said z... i dont know where i got the z from...

Because a perfect Being deserves worship and praise while a feeble, finite, imperfect being does not.

Perfect? I think not!

Where, outside the Bible, can you prove the perfectness of God?

Because a perfect Being deserves worship and praise while a feeble, finite, imperfect being does not.Exactly. That's why I'm so confused why so few people worship and praise me. :)


Seriously? No-one "deserves" worship and praise. In fact, no-one deserves anything. There is no such thing as perfection. Even God is not perfect. All Gods have their flaws: this one's is inconsistency.

1. God gives and God takes, nobody truly owns anything as all things are granted to us by God



Even pain and suffering?

a god. I'm God. Y'know, the guy in charge of all the gods. *grins*

Oh, I see. Hello.

If I'm a mere under-god, can I be the God of Procrastination?

So you think these events wouldn't have occured absent of religion ? please, it is naive to think man at his worst could not come up with an equally ignorant excuse for murder then "in the name of god". Absent of god, it would be "for my country", "for my race", or plainly said "for me"!
The point is that religion contributes little or nothing positive but it's just another excuse for divisions and warfare.

Why are we assuming God chooses to know things beforehand anyway? Lol :D
Because he's supposed to be omniscient.

Perfect? I think not!

Where, outside the Bible, can you prove the perfectness of God?


1. Perfectness isn't a word :p

2. I don't suppose I can, the Bible is the inspired word of God and the only source of our faith :)

a god. I'm God. Y'know, the guy in charge of all the gods. *grins*Riiiiight....


I hate to tell you this, it's all an illusion. There really are no "gods" you command. They are all, instead, projections of human insecurities and idealism. I, the political and economic leader of the Multiverse, am the only acknowledgable God. And even I'm not perfect. I made a mistake a few million years ago. So get out of your self-constructed reality and face the music.

Exactly. That's why I'm so confused why so few people worship and praise me. :)
pfft...

Seriously? No-one "deserves" worship and praise. In fact, no-one deserves anything. There is no such thing as perfection. Even God is not perfect. All Gods have their flaws: this one's is inconsistency.

You just summed up my beliefs. The gods I do believe in are flawed, imperfect. And they dun demand worship. It's more of a respectful, understood thing.

Because he's supposed to be omniscient.



But that doesn't necessarily mean he chooses to view that knowledge. Perhaps he chooses to not see into the future?

If it wasn't for religion, nobody in history would ever have died...
Ahaha! Think of WWI! Didn't have much to do with religion, did it? You know, assassinations and secret agreements and all the other good stuff, but not really much religion.

1. Perfectness isn't a word :p

2. I don't suppose I can, the Bible is the inspired word of God and the only source of our faith :)So if the Bible didn't exist, you would have no proof of God's existence? Surely you can do better than that. ;)

Riiiiight....


I hate to tell you this, it's all an illusion. There really are no "gods" you command. They are all, instead, projections of human insecurities and idealism. I, the political and economic leader of the Multiverse, am the only acknowledgable God. And even I'm not perfect. I made a mistake a few million years ago. So get out of your self-constructed reality and face the music.

Oh well. Reality's subjective, anyways, and with the massive distortion of the multiverse my ego causes, I think I cause a good bit of sway. ;)

The point is that religion contributes little or nothing positive but it's just another excuse for divisions and warfare.



And if you pull your head out of the sand you will see that your claim is false :)

Slavery in of itself is not evil, it is the abuse of one's slaves that becomes evil.


Edit: And before everyone pounces me as evil, remember that slavery is wrong when not authorized and regulated by God. Which is why slavery should be and is outlawed today.
Slavery is always wrong. It's a crime agains human dignity and liberty and it doesn't matte how many imaginary voices in your head tell you it's right.

So if the Bible didn't exist, you would have no proof of God's existence? Surely you can do better than that. ;)



Had Christ never come to earth, had God not appeared or spoke to anyone, had this all never occured...all proof for God's existence would be merely philosophical :)

Ephesians 6:5-9 5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
Here's a good example of why religion disgusts me.

Had Christ never come to earth, had God not appeared or spoke to anyone, had this all never occured...all proof for God's existence would be merely philosophical :)

All proof of gods existence IS purely philosophical

The point is that religion contributes little or nothing positive but it's just another excuse for divisions and warfare.

Meh, the same could be said about many philosophies. Nihilism is not a very pleasant belief either, ultimately everyone believes in something otherwise they are a nihilist who believes in nothing. Now if the beliefs that everyone chooses to have are all complementary then there is no problem. But if people choose of their own accord differing beliefs then problems start occuring. Religion is a differing belief from secular humanism or whatever the heck the atheists here believe. That is part of the division.

We have seen before that it is not only religions that kill people, the communists in charge of the atheist dictatorships have killed many millions of people.

Unless you wish to end all divisions by making everyone believe as you do the point is stupid. There would be no divisions if everyone believed as the Christians did or the Muslims did or the Jews did and so on and so forth.

God's mercy, justice, and love are eternal.
Mercy? Like when he exterminated almost everyone on earth? Like when Sodom and Gomorrah went up in flames and lot's wife was turned to salt JUST FOR LOOKING? I'll pass on that mercy.

Anyway, those things can only be eternal if god exists. Since I've seen no evidence that god does exist, I'm wasting my time debating the motivations of an imaginary man.

Slavery is always wrong. It's a crime agains human dignity and liberty and it doesn't matte how many imaginary voices in your head tell you it's right.



And that is where you are incorrect, the concept of liberty and freedom to make decisions outside of the moral spectrum is a human contrivance. The Bible never espouses the American ideals of freedom, it focuses on devotion, piety, and the surrender of our own will to God's. We have no dignity, we are wretched creatures full of sin and evil and thus deserve nothing better than to be treated with disgust. Fortunately, God has provided an escape from our fate through Christ's sacrifice and cruel slaveowners would forfeit that salvation through disobedience of God's will.

pfft...I’m joking, you lowly uneducated fool. ;) (j/k)

Slavery is always wrong. It's a crime agains human dignity and liberty and it doesn't matte how many imaginary voices in your head tell you it's right.

Human dignity and liberty are just made up concepts. To claim that they are supremely special requires some faith on your part. Some people would claim that our obsession with our liberties and individualism is a flaw that causes many problems within our society.

The only belief that does not take much assumption is nihilism which is not a pleasant ideology.

Slavery is simply neutral, people serve other people.


Snipped

No, Slavery is forced servitude. It's not neutral it's a crime against humanity.

Mercy? Like when he exterminated almost everyone on earth? Like when Sodom and Gomorrah went up in flames and lot's wife was turned to salt JUST FOR LOOKING? I'll pass on that mercy.

Anyway, those things can only be eternal if god exists. Since I've seen no evidence that god does exist, I'm wasting my time debating the motivations of an imaginary man.



Remember, we sinners deserve no mercy. The very fact that God allowed them the chance to turn from their ways before he destroyed them was intrisically merciful. Get past your own blind view of our righteousness and realize that we have none. We all are deserving of hellfire for our transgressions.

And that is where you are incorrect, the concept of liberty and freedom to make decisions outside of the moral spectrum is a human contrivance. The Bible never espouses the American ideals of freedom, it focuses on devotion, piety, and the surrender of our own will to God's. We have no dignity, we are wretched creatures full of sin and evil and thus deserve nothing better than to be treated with disgust. Fortunately, God has provided an escape from our fate through Christ's sacrifice and cruel slaveowners would forfeit that salvation through disobedience of God's will.

I'll Just let everyone lese get you for this one.

Because a perfect Being deserves worship and praise while a feeble, finite, imperfect being does not.
A perfect being doesn't automatically deserve praise and worship. It's done nothing to earn it's level of perfection. It's had no obstacles to overcome.

A man who has worked to become better is greater than some perfect being. Even if that man remains flawed. There is a dignity in overcomming one's condition and improving one's self.

Had Christ never come to earth, had God not appeared or spoke to anyone, had this all never occured...all proof for God's existence would be merely philosophical :)So explain how you can prove the existence of God without using the Bible at all. ;)