NationStates Jolt Archive

It's called Fathers for Life. ( http://www.fathersforlife.org/index.html)

The site begins with: "Warning! This site contains news and commentaries pertaining to fatherhood, fatherlessness, family issues, gender politics and the deconstruction of our society.

The news items and other information found on this website reflect a conservative perspective. If you don't like families, fathers or conservatives, don't read this website, as what you read here will most likely prove to be harmful to your ideology.

Fathers for Life is best looked at as an encyclopedia of the family and the agenda of its enemies." (feminists and gays are among these enemies dealt with in the site)

Here is a little snippet from their stance on 'teh Gays':

How to prevent homosexuality in boys (http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/preventi.html)

2) Second, it is absolutely essential that all adults and older children unequivocally affirm the boy's masculine identity, and show disapproval toward stereotypically girly activities and cross dressing. A simple "Boys don't do that" on the first occasion is sufficient.


8) Children should be protected from sexual molestation by adults or other children, with a yearly admonition from their parents that if anyone tries to touch their private parts or asks them to touch his parts they are to tell immediately and that people who do such things are usually liars.

The symptoms of an at-risk boy are:
1) Fear of rough and tumble play
2) Lack of same-sex playmates
3) Dislike of team sports
4) Doll play
5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.



Take a look at the site...and please discuss what you see. Do you support or not support anything you see?

Rather than just ripping the site apart, or supporting it wholeheartedly, I'd like people to bring up specific things they see there so we can discuss it as rationally as possible.

I found this rather amusing:
Sorry, but that article is no longer available. It had to be taken down because the author, a Jewish lawyer from NY, became afraid that Canada's human rights tribunals would cause him grief on account of the article.
What kind of respectable person would need to be afraid of a Canadian human rights tribunal?

As to the pretending to be a girl or wanting to be a girl bit, what's that got to do with being gay? That's more likely an indicator of other things, if it can be considered an indicator at all.

I don't approve of this site very much at all.

How to prevent homosexuality in boys (http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/preventi.html)

Homosexual attractions are symptoms of a preventable developmental disorder. Once the symptoms are observed prompt intervention and treatment can prevent a homosexuality outcome, but it is preferable to prevent the conditions which cause the disorder in the first place.

It's hard not to turn this into an argument about homosexuality being a disorder or not, but I'll try to abstain from that. What I find most disturbing about this article is the idea that prevention can 'stop homosexuality from developing' in boys. So...if it DOES 'develop', the parents are at fault for not teaching the proper gender roles. There are some good points in this article, like teaching children not to be quiet about inappropriate touching, about having good role models...but these things are important for all kids, and a lack of them does not a homosexual make. The message in this article seems to be that homosexuality is caused by things like abuse, poor gender modeling, etc etc. I think this sort of thing is akin to fearmongering...and setting the stage for finger pointing and blame when parents 'fail' their children by allowing them to 'become' gay.

I found this rather amusing:

What kind of respectable person would need to be afraid of a Canadian human rights tribunal?

As to the pretending to be a girl or wanting to be a girl bit, what's that got to do with being gay? That's more likely an indicator of other things, if it can be considered an indicator at all.

I don't approve of this site very much at all.
I agree. My brother is transgendered. He didn't always want to dress up as a girl or take the 'female' roles though. And my parents never encouraged him to 'dress up'...and yet, here he is, 24 years old and out and out transgendered. Did my parents 'fail' him? Why didn't he just turn gay then?

Kids should play however they want to, as long as it isn't harmful to others. But I suppose people who really are against homosexuality could consider atypical gender roleplay to be harmful. Still...if my daughters want to play with trucks instead of dolls...why should I care? And if they prefer dolls to trucks, so? Let THEM choose. The only time I'm going to say, "this is for girls and that is for boys" is when I explain about the different genitalia, and methods of urinating. Seriously. What is the point otherwise?

Like you said Bias in being pro Conservative.

And the whole how your son will be gay?

Please, while I will admit that the things that they state are evident in Homosexuals at times, it won't make a person gay, it might make them a wuss though.

1) Fear of rough and tumble play
2) Lack of same-sex playmates
3) Dislike of team sports
4) Doll play
5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.

Hah, I like the part about "rough and tumble" play and "team sports". Nothing like forcing other sweaty, muscular men to the ground in skin-tight uniforms followed by a steamy group shower to reinforce one's sexuality.

Try again, new Hitler Youth.

These are all methods I had pretty much already decided I would use in parenting, in the unlikely event that I am ever a father.

Gah! Has anyone looked at their "Humour" page? I fail to see anything funny about what they have there. Shouldn't humor include some jokes instead of hateful citations?

Well, you can more or less immediately guess a site called "Fathers for Life" is going to consist of whining men who can't deal with the weakening of male domination. They can't deal with the fact that women are no longer their property and so they whine about it.

my favourite article

http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/anti-religion_therapy.htm

Title

" GAY AFFIRMING THERAPISTS CONDEMN
CHANGING CLIENT'S SEXUAL ORIENTATION,
RECOMMEND CHANGING RELIGIOUS ORIENTATION"

...and then there's that aggravatingly annoying back to top button too... :mad:

Ugh. That's horrible.

How can people be so naive?

They remind me of... Of my own father. *Shakes head* And what a sad, prejudiced womaniser he is. In fact, I bet he would be viewed as quite 'macho' on this site.

Hm.

Gah! Has anyone looked at their "Humour" page? I fail to see anything funny about what they have there. Shouldn't humor include some jokes instead of hateful citations?
Hmmm.

And right under the 'humour' section is this snippet:

Infanticide — a euphemism for child murder (http://www.fathersforlife.org/Table_contents_gj.htm#Humour)

It's a term that devalues the victim of the crime, a term that was created especially for women.

If a man murders a child it is called by what it is: murder. He'll go to prison for it for many years, after a murder trial in which he is more likely to be found guilty than a woman would if she had murdered the child under the same circumstances.

If a woman murders a child, it is called infanticide. She'll be tried in court for committing infanticide, not for committing murder. She'll very likely be found not guilty, or if found guilty, be let off on a conditional sentence, which, as in the case of Danielle Blais in Montreal, will require her to attend a number of counseling sessions to help her get over the trauma of the crime she committed. But she will most likely, just like Danielle Blais, not be required to be incarcerated to serve a single day of her sentence. Danielle Blais deliberately drowned her 6-year-old autistic son in her bathtub.

The majority of child-murder victims were killed by their biological mothers (70%). Far fewer are killed by their biological fathers (6%). Not one single woman serves time in a Canadian prison for murdering her young child.


No sources are provided to back up this last statement, by the way.

A lot of this site is like this...very strong statements about 'how things are' with no sources or proof, or worse, links to other opinion pieces with no sources or proof.

Well, you can more or less immediately guess a site called "Fathers for Life" is going to consist of whining men who can't deal with the weakening of male domination. They can't deal with the fact that women are no longer their property and so they whine about it.
This kind of comment is not going to help a rational dissection of this site...I don't want this thread to turn into a name-calling contest puleeez....

...
No sources are provided to back up this last statement, by the way.

A lot of this site is like this...very strong statements about 'how things are' with no sources or proof, or worse, links to other opinion pieces with no sources or proof.
Makes you wonder how often the authors of this site still get to see their children each week, huh? :p

Hmmm.

And right under the 'humour' section is this snippet:

Infanticide — a euphemism for child murder (http://www.fathersforlife.org/Table_contents_gj.htm#Humour)



No sources are provided to back up this last statement, by the way.

A lot of this site is like this...very strong statements about 'how things are' with no sources or proof, or worse, links to other opinion pieces with no sources or proof.
TEH GEHS! TEH GEHS ARE COMING! THEY'LL TAKE YOUR CHILD AND REARRANGE YOUR FURNATURE!!!!1!!!eleventyone!!!!!!


>.<

TEH GEHS! TEH GEHS ARE COMING! THEY'LL TAKE YOUR CHILD AND REARRANGE YOUR FURNATURE!!!!1!!!eleventyone!!!!!!


>.<
There goes the rational discussion, Sinuhue... :rolleyes:

Here is a list of their definitions of different types of feminism too...kind of interesting actually:
List of types of feminism (http://www.fathersforlife.org/feminism/feminism_terms_defined.htm#Index)

To me, radical feminism (http://www.fathersforlife.org/feminism/feminism_terms_defined.htm#Radical_Feminism) is centred on the necessity to question gender roles. This is why I identify current "gender politics" questions as radical feminist issues. Radical feminism questions why women must adopt certain roles based on their biology, just as it questions why men adopt certain other roles based on theirs. Radical feminism attempts to draw lines between biologically-determined behavior and culturally-determined behavior in order to free both men and women as much as possible from their previous narrow gender roles. [EE]

I'm sorry, but to me, the above is not radical feminism at all. It's feminism, period.

And they have this to say about ALL types of feminism:

Virtually all of the terms relate to the destruction of traditional moral standards and the traditional nuclear family, thereby aiming at turning civilization into something that is clearly not as good as what we had become accustomed to. Where will it all end? Nobody knows and it will be far different from what we can imagine.

Only one thing is certain. If pro-family advocates don't soon get together and work cooperatively to oppose the planned destruction of our families, there'll soon not be much left of civilization worth salvaging.

The other thing this article brings back up is the nature v. nurture debate. As it pertains to homosexuality, I believe it is a combination of both. Ultimately I believe an behavior is a choice, as for orientation to homosexuality there are clearly multiple factors, some biological, some environmental, but acting on that orientation is still always a choice.

The other thing this article brings back up is the nature v. nurture debate. As it pertains to homosexuality, I believe it is a combination of both. Ultimately I believe an behavior is a choice, as for orientation to homosexuality there are clearly multiple factors, some biological, some environmental, but acting on that orientation is still always a choice.So is acting on whether to use your right or left hand. What's your point?

That site's incredibly sad. I'm a male bisexual, so let's see what applies to me, ne?

1) Fear of rough and tumble play
2) Lack of same-sex playmates
3) Dislike of team sports
4) Doll play
5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.

Hmm...I've no problem with rough with others.
A lot of my friends, well, 99% of them, are female.
Team sports...Lessee...I was in soccer and baseball for years when I was younger, and loved it.
The only time I've cross dressed was just for shits 'n' giggles.
As for effeminate speech and mannerisms, I can adopt them really quickly, if I decide to, for laughs, but I'm fairly masculine. I am, however, very much in touch with my feelings and desires.
I can pull off a feminine role quite well.
I'd not mind switching genders, to see how the other half experiences life.

So, yes, some of the stereotypes apply, but I don't think they're indicative of someone who'll grow up to be homosexual. I just think these fathers are trying to force their kids to grow up into the stereotypical macho male (which is the last thing we need, imo), and make up for their own inadequacies by living through their children.

And take a look at this little picture they have:

http://www.fathersforlife.org/fv/fv2.htm#Womens_Violence

And has this to say: Violence against women in families is a relatively minor portion of all family violence. This page also asserts that women commit the most violence. However, the definitions being used are so varied. First they talk about partner violence, then all domestic violence including: violence against children, violence between siblings, violence by children against parents, or violence against the elderly. Later on, it admits to including 'girls' in with 'women' as perpetrators of violence, as though all juvenile violence is equal to adult violence. There are so many contradictions in this page...but it is cleverly set up with shocking headlines, stories, and then conclusions drawn (like editiorials) then onto the next shocking headline.

Rather than promoting gender equity, this site seems to be targeting a wide range of people. Pretty much anyone who isn't a straight, married male with offspring actually.

TEH GEHS! TEH GEHS ARE COMING! THEY'LL TAKE YOUR CHILD AND REARRANGE YOUR FURNATURE!!!!1!!!eleventyone!!!!!!


>.<
Watch out, or I'll rearrange your wardrobe, too!

And take a look at this little picture they have:

http://www.fathersforlife.org/fv/fv2.htm#Womens_Violence

And has this to say: This page also asserts that women commit the most violence. However, the definitions being used are so varied. First they talk about partner violence, then all domestic violence including: violence against children, violence between siblings, violence by children against parents, or violence against the elderly. Later on, it admits to including 'girls' in with 'women' as perpetrators of violence, as though all juvenile violence is equal to adult violence. There are so many contradictions in this page...but it is cleverly set up with shocking headlines, stories, and then conclusions drawn (like editiorials) then onto the next shocking headline.

Rather than promoting gender equity, this site seems to be targeting a wide range of people. Pretty much anyone who isn't a straight, married male with offspring actually.The site is biased against step fathers and boyfriends too.
Seriously Sinuhue, there haven't been that many people defending it. I think most people can agree that the site is absolute bullshit and doesn't deserve the qualified discussion you're trying to give it.

I agree with the stuff about feminism as well, up until the “call to action,” so to speak.

I agree with the stuff about feminism as well, up until the “call to action,” so to speak.
I'm not sure what you mean...

you agree with what particular thing about feminism?

The site is biased against step fathers and boyfriends too.
Seriously Sinuhue, there haven't been that many people defending it. I think most people can agree that the site is absolute bullshit and doesn't deserve the qualified discussion you're trying to give it.
Give it time. Trust me. A lot of people have some very strong and unresearched views of feminism in particular, and this site does a good job of fanning the flames. Some people are going to read it and take it at face value. I'd like to see what people agree with, and then look at the evidence presented. It's important not to just dismiss something like this. A lot of time and effort has gone into this site...these are not just a few guys (and women) working on this.

I'm not sure what you mean...

you agree with what particular thing about feminism?

I believe that women are equal, but different, and that the first duty of a women is to provide for the family within in the home, just as a father’s first duty is to provide for the family outside the home. In short, I don’t like modern feminism. However, legislating on something so trivial sicken me.

Give it time. Trust me. A lot of people have some very strong and unresearched views of feminism in particular, and this site does a good job of fanning the flames. Some people are going to read it and take it at face value. I'd like to see what people agree with, and then look at the evidence presented. It's important not to just dismiss something like this. A lot of time and effort has gone into this site...these are not just a few guys (and women) working on this.
I suggest putting up a poll on whether you approve or disapprove (or are undecided) of this site. It's a bit hard arguing about something that there's no evidence for. Once there's a couple votes in favor of the site, I might be convinced.

The symptoms of an at-risk boy are:
1) Fear of rough and tumble play
2) Lack of same-sex playmates
3) Dislike of team sports
4) Doll play
5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.
I don't particularly like that bit.

The symptoms of an at-risk boy are:
1) Fear of rough and tumble play
2) Lack of same-sex playmates
3) Dislike of team sports
4) Doll play
5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.

Hey! What do you know ... I *am* gay!

I believe that women are equal, but different, and that the first duty of a women is to provide for the family within in the home, just as a father’s first duty is to provide for the family outside the home. In short, I don’t like modern feminism.
Could you see those roles being reversed, if both people wanted them to be? As in, the man provide within the home, and the woman outside?

Could you see those roles being reversed, if both people wanted them to be? As in, the man provide within the home, and the woman outside?

I don’t care what other people do, that’s just how I would prefer to live. It stems from religious views, if you were going to ask why.

Watch out, or I'll rearrange your wardrobe, too!

In a Queer Eye style? Damm I want the Fab 5 to visit me and give me a makeover. But not the british version. I only want the american ones. Without them I wouldnt be who I am today :D

Here is a list of their definitions of different types of feminism too...kind of interesting actually:
List of types of feminism (http://www.fathersforlife.org/feminism/feminism_terms_defined.htm#Index)

I'm sorry, but to me, the above is not radical feminism at all. It's feminism, period.

I'm rather bothered by the "biology" part. I don't think any of us are at all upset about the roles imparted by the actual differences in biology (except for those who feel that they were born with the wrong physiology). However, there are many gender roles that have little, if anything, to do with biology - and it is those roles that we generally challenge. Meanwhile, even statistical differences should be challenged - by individuals that aren't within the averages. Women are statistically less physically strong - that is known. But does that mean that the women who are stronger than most men should be denied jobs that need strength? Of course not!

And they have this to say about ALL types of feminism:

Ah, back to the myth of the nuclear family. People act like the nuclear family has been "proven" to be the best when it has actually only been around for a couple of generations - and may have done more harm than good.

These are all methods I had pretty much already decided I would use in parenting, in the unlikely event that I am ever a father.

Indeed, please do not reproduce.

In a Queer Eye style? Damm I want the Fab 4 to visit me and give me a makeover. But not the british version. I only want the american ones. Without them I wouldnt be who I am today :D

YES.

Except I'm a girl.

The British ones are quite lame and un-funny. The American Fab5 is so much cooler.

In a Queer Eye style? Damm I want the Fab 4 to visit me and give me a makeover. But not the british version. I only want the american ones. Without them I wouldnt be who I am today :D

Yes, and I'll organize it based on a mind boggling system of logic and neatness!

Indeed, please do not reproduce.
Better yet, just tell any potential mate of yours about your feelings re: kitchen work.

Better yet, just tell any potential mate of yours about your feelings re: kitchen work.

You’ve never lived in a small town in Texas, have you? Ask the average 16-24 year old girl around here where she sees herself in ten years. More than likely, the answer you get will have no mention of career, but will mostly be about being married and having kids.

Leave it to the conservatives to collect a bunch of ignorant and hateful opinions, and preface them by saying anyone who disagrees with them does so because they dislike families and fathers. And America, too, I suppose.

And honestly, looking at their homosexual "warning signs," is there a straight man on earth who hasn't violated at least one of them sometime in their lives? Here's how I scored:

2) Lack of same-sex playmates - I was a small and bookish kid for the most part. Boys picked on me, girls didn't. Simple as that. Most of my close friends were girls until about the 10th grade.
4) Doll play - Every boy picks up a doll at some point.
5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes - Tried on mom's shoes as a child. Allowed female friends to dress me up as a girl on Halloween in 9th grade. At a party in 10th grade I lived up to a dare and put on a woman's bikini, and later ended up posing for a photo with two other dudes dressed the same.

Of course, it's worth mentioning that the photo would have been creepy if we were in any way effeminate. Because we were not, it was funny instead, and made the rounds at school the next week.

6) Effeminate speech or mannerism - I was often accused of effeminate speech throughout childhood, but the more fitting adjective would be "articulate." I finally had to start cursing a lot and lacing my language with slang to get people to leave me alone.
7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part. - Watched "Space Balls" about twice a day one summer with my brothers. We learned the whole movie and would act it out with them, rotating roles. Somebody had to play Princess Vespa.

That gives me a 5/8 score, so I must be pretty gay according to these idiots, right? My wife would strongly disagree. I'm betting anyone who honestly assesses themselves against this list scores at least a 3.

YES.

Except I'm a girl.

The British ones are quite lame and un-funny. The American Fab5 is so much cooler.

I live with my boyfriend, so I'm trying to think of a reason to try and get the Fab5 to come make him over (then my house gets redecorated! =)

Of course, they do have a queer eye for the straight girl now, but I haven't seen it.

Blatant falsification? Only you can decide...

http://www.fathersforlife.org/Table_contents_gj.htm#Hate_Language

The only good male is a dead male — That is what a shelter worker had to say after a 5-week-old boy was starved to death in a Toronto shelter. If he would have been allowed to live, he would only have grown up to be another gender terrorist.

A fairly shocking thing for a shelter worker to say, no?

Let's look a tiny bit deeper...

http://www.fathersforlife.org/fv/women_shelter1.htm#Hate

"A future gender terrorist" is what "Suzy McDougall" considers the poor boy to be. In other words, don't mourn the victim. The only good male is a dead male.

Ah, right then, so she didn't actually say 'the only good male is a dead male', instead that is just a paraphrase based on what she did actually say...

Let's look a tiny bit deeper...

FEMINIST RESPONSE TO THE STORY

No doubt, some men's right's nuts will ask how a poor baby boy is allowed to starve to death in the Anduhyaun Women's Shelter and nobody notices.

Let me answer this.

First, we are not dealing here with a poor boy, but with a future gender terrorist.

Ah. An unpleasent thing to say, but wait... what is that just at the top of this section...

A fictitious, but nevertheless logical
FEMINIST RESPONSE TO THE STORY


There you have it - the site writes its own 'feminist' doctrine, then paraphrases it, and then attempts to present it as an actual instance of remarks made by a feminist.

Laughable.

You’ve never lived in a small town in Texas, have you? Ask the average 16-24 year old girl around here where she sees herself in ten years. More than likely, the answer you get will have no mention of career, but will mostly be about being married and having kids.
Mmm, I wouldn't be caught dead in a small town in texas. The vast majority of women don't want that.


Besides, I have a lynching party waiting for me the second I step foot into texas.

I live with my boyfriend, so I'm trying to think of a reason to try and get the Fab5 to come make him over (then my house gets redecorated! =)

Of course, they do have a queer eye for the straight girl now, but I haven't seen it.

SERIOUSLY. I'm excited.

Of course, there's the slimmest chance that I'll be able to convince them to comeover to Hong Kong.

The greatest thing though is that clotheswise I'm doing pretty okay because I just won a 50,000 (HKD) cash coupon to a store.

Of course, the relevance this all has to the topic is close to nil... FUN.

-----

I'm glad they're called Father's for Life. Some time ago I developed the belief that everyman who has a child is a Father, it takes someone really commited and loving to be a Dad. I mean obviously.. I've lost my train of thought... Anyone care to continue it?

I'm glad they're called Father's for Life. Some time ago I developed the belief that everyman who has a child is a Father, it takes someone really commited and loving to be a Dad. I mean obviously.. I've lost my train of thought... Anyone care to continue it?

Being a father is a question of biology, but being a Dad is a question of humanity?

I'm betting anyone who honestly assesses themselves against this list scores at least a 3.

1. No fear of rough and tumble play
2. Nearly all the people I consider friends are guys.
3. I don’t dislike them. I’m just not any good, They are fun, though. Especially football.
4. Coming from a family of four brothers, never.
5. Never had an interest in wearing women's clothing.
6. I have a very deep voice, and have been told my mannerisms are “nonchalant.”
7. Never did that. I even have trouble writing women’s roles in stories.
8. Never once did that.

I pass with flying colors. :D

Being a father is a question of biology, but being a Dad is a question of humanity?

That and the awkwardness I feel when I try to call my dad "father". It just seems too formal

Mmm, I wouldn't be caught dead in a small town in texas. The vast majority of women don't want that.

I’m aware of that, and guess what? I don’t want to be with any women that doesn’t. I plan on never leaving Texas, so I should be fine.

Being a father is a question of biology, but being a Dad is a question of humanity?

*applaudes*

and now to figure out what I point I was trying to make from that.

It probably had something to do with how no 'dad' could be so, the right word eludes me, ICKY.

Um... team sports. girls play team sports! here in the U.K. there're women's football leagues, netball clubs in school that are often girl-only, the list is quite large. i dislike team sports because i dislike all sports, having severe asthma all my life has led to my stamina dropping.

rough-and-tumble play happens with everyone. um, the americans seem to like wrestling? kids play-wrestle! i thought fighting was a 'manly' thing to do!

and lack of same-sex friends? does that mean a 'dork' who hates the american-football-playing jocks and would much rather talk to girls (who are often morally and intelectually developed a few years before boys) is gay? no, it means he isn't a tough, great father's son who loves to live the american dream. yes, that happens.

just to clear up, in case i sounded a tad feminazi thre, i'm 15 and living in emgland. i am the classic physically weak geeky kid. ye, that's me.

i also go to an all-boys school. so though i only have same-sex playmates, they'd probably label me 'seeking men for what women are there for'.

these guys are odd.

ooh... i did the ranty thing again. sorry :D

Hah, I like the part about "rough and tumble" play and "team sports". Nothing like forcing other sweaty, muscular men to the ground in skin-tight uniforms followed by a steamy group shower to reinforce one's sexuality.

Try again, new Hitler Youth.
This is the sort of unhelpful post which has irritated me no end in the past. However, I now just consider the source and do my best to ignore the poster in the future. :p

rough-and-tumble play happens with everyone. um, the americans seem to like wrestling? kids play-wrestle! i thought fighting was a 'manly' thing to do!

Its saying if a kid avoids rough and touble play, he might be gay.

Hey! What do you know ... I *am* gay!

The same with me... I guess almost all of Silicon Valley is gay as well!

This is the sort of unhelpful post which has irritated me no end in the past. However, I now just consider the source and do my best to ignore the poster in the future. :p

I know, I am teh gay by their standards... ;)

The same with me... I guess almost all of Silicon Valley is gay as well!
It isn't? I thought the entire west coast was gay.

Gee eh, it is hard to believe that there are still people in civilized societies that still think like this. For me it's amazing the stupidity of so many.

My kids are very young, sex is the last thing on their mind. I don't even think my 7 years old knows what sex is..lol.

I'll tell you this much, if all parents put the time and care into loving their children as some appear to put into worrying about them being gay, we'd have a lot better parents and thus children with a better chance at life.

If my son ends up gay (and believe me, I don't even really think about it) who cares? I won't as long as he is happy, that is all that would matter to me.

Such ignorant people in this world, it's bloody amazing!

1. No fear of rough and tumble play
2. Nearly all the people I consider friends are guys.
3. I don’t dislike them. I’m just not any good, They are fun, though. Especially football.
4. Coming from a family of four brothers, never.
5. Never had an interest in wearing women's clothing.
6. I have a very deep voice, and have been told my mannerisms are “nonchalant.”
7. Never did that. I even have trouble writing women’s roles in stories.
8. Never once did that.

I pass with flying colors. :D

Well, I did preface that with the word "honestly." Personally, I'd be more worried about the guy who likes rough and tumble and doesn't socialize with girls.

Leave it to the conservatives to collect a bunch of ignorant and hateful opinions, and preface them by saying anyone who disagrees with them does so because they dislike families and fathers. And America, too, I suppose.


Sadly, I must point out this site is Canadian. Sorry folks. We can be idiots too :eek:

It isn't? I thought the entire west coast was gay.

Pretty much. :p

I'd rather live there instead of Ohio anyday, regardless.

Blatant falsification? Only you can decide...


There you have it - the site writes its own 'feminist' doctrine, then paraphrases it, and then attempts to present it as an actual instance of remarks made by a feminist.

Laughable.
Worse than laughable. Scary actually. Especially if people don't bother to dig deper as you did. Wow.

And this quote on the page you listed: The politics of contemporary feminism cannot be understood without realizing that it was founded within the Women's Ku Klux Klan.

— Dave Usher

Double wow.

Strong opinions, no facts so far...

Gee eh, it is hard to believe that there are still people in civilized societies that still think like this. For me it's amazing the stupidity of so many.

My kids are very young, sex is the last thing on their mind. I don't even think my 7 years old knows what sex is..lol.

I'll tell you this much, if all parents put the time and care into loving their children as some appear to put into worrying about them being gay, we'd have a lot better parents and thus children with a better chance at life.

If my son ends up gay (and believe me, I don't even really think about it) who cares? I won't as long as he is happy, that is all that would matter to me.

Such ignorant people in this world, it's bloody amazing!

I completely agree! THIS is the kind of attitude that should be raising the future.

I sounded so stupid just then.

I think that was what I was trying to get at, your not really a mum or a dad unless you're truly supportive of your child's happiness, otherwise you're just a parent.

I’m aware of that, and guess what? I don’t want to be with any women that doesn’t. I plan on never leaving Texas, so I should be fine.
And this is fine. As long as a woman CHOOSES to be a homemaker, or not. The essential ingredient is choice. Unfortunately, many women don't choose (and I'm not just talking North America here now folks)...they are forced into certain roles. Even here, if a woman doesn't realise that she can work outside the home if she wishes, if she is never educated or allowed to work outside of the home, being a homemaker is not a choice. It's a certainty.

I for one applaud any man or woman who stays home with their kids 24-7. I couldn't do it and keep my sanity. When I work, I come home with energy to spend on my kids, we play, we frolic, we make merry. When I stayed home and saw nothing but them and the walls of my home, I was ready to lose my mind with boredom...and so were they.

It takes a special kind of person to be 'on duty' all day...and often into the night like that. And no one should be forced to do it, or not to do it. That includes men. Men can be excellent homemakers, and should have more opportunity to be this if they choose.

Of course, who you choose to marry is going to depend on your lifestyle and your expectations. There is nothing wrong with that, and I think you've made it clear that this is your personal choice, and not something you believe everyone should do.

Well, I did preface that with the word "honestly." Personally, I'd be more worried about the guy who likes rough and tumble and doesn't socialize with girls.

I didn’t say, nor did the sight say, that one shouldn’t socialize with girls. It just said that boys should prefer boys as their primary pals. Oh, and I did answer honestly.

Some little gems from the most "popular" pages on their site:

"That anorexia nervosa is a chosen lifestyle is undeniable."

"It takes on average about forty days for anyone to die from not eating anything at all, but that never happens to anorexics. It would cut short the game they play with themselves and others. They like to stretch that game out for as long as possible, to prolong the pleasure they derive out of manufacturing concern for themselves as victims."

"If women can't or don't want to get security through marriage or even only through cohabitation, they will attempt to gain that it by fingering a man, any man, to be the father of their children. It doesn't matter whether that man is truly the father of the child or children that women wish that man to pay for — financial security is very often all they wish to get from the man they finger."

"However, today's men are not like the Nazis. They are more like the Jews in 1939, just as powerless as the Jews were then."

"Does anyone think that the process in Germany that led up to the extermination of millions of Jews was that much different from what is being inflicted on the men and boys in our present society?"

The last two are both from http://www.fathersforlife.org/now_and_then.htm, which is worth reading if just for the *boggle* factor.

Oh, and I like how women and girls with anorexia are just trying to "manufacture concern for themselves as victims," but when men claim that feminists are planning a "Patricaust," that's a REAL PROBLEM. :rolleyes:

This is the sort of unhelpful post which has irritated me no end in the past. However, I now just consider the source and do my best to ignore the poster in the future. :p
Hey kettle. Meet pot. You're black. (seriously...why post this then?)

Sadly, I must point out this site is Canadian. Sorry folks. We can be idiots too :eek:
Well, then, that clinches it. If they're Canadians, then they *definitely* hate America. ;-)

It's a bit hard to tell, actually, because conservatives are the same no matter where you go. Luckily, we can tell who they are, thanks to their flat skulls, sloped foreheads, jutting jaws, and protruding supraorbital ridges.

The symptoms of an at-risk boy are:
1) Fear of rough and tumble play
2) Lack of same-sex playmates
3) Dislike of team sports
4) Doll play
5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.

Let's see how I do...

1) No fear, but I avoid it if possible.
2) I don't really have many friends of either gender, but I live in an all (except for me) female house, so that throws it off a bit.
3) Yes, because I'm a wimp.
4) Nope.
5) Nope.
6) Used to.
7) Nope.
8) Nope.

Hmmm, 3/8! I'm almost half gay!

Being a father is a question of biology, but being a Dad is a question of humanity?


This is a good point. All it takes to be a father is a momentary lapse of reason.

To be a father though, takes a life time of dedication, love, patience and understanding.

This is a good point. All it takes to be a father is a momentary lapse of reason.

To be a father though, takes a life time of dedication, love, patience and understanding.
And it would be nice if guys didn't feel pressured into working insane hours, or in dangerous conditions, or far away from their families so they could BE the best dad they could be (sounds like I'm an army recruiter:)). I can't wait until it is normal that men spend as much time with their kids as moms are expected to (preferable together), that dads take their kids in for their shots or medical visits half the time instead of moms being expected to take the time off work every time (and then vilified for it).

My husband took my daughter in to get a vaccination the other day, and said that the nurses all looked at him like he had an extra head (but in a good way). They couldn't believe a man would come in by himself with his child...because it's not something they ever see.

Anyway...I think more dads could be better dads if it weren't for backwards-looking folks like these Fathers for Life who want the woman in the kitchen, the children seen and not heard, and the man to be manly and working.

Just a cursory look at the site, and it reminded me of the incident recently where a father killed his 3-year old son (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=101&e=3&u=/po/20050715/co_po/manaccusedofkillinghisgaybabyson) because the child wasn't manly enough. I'm not drawing a direct connection between this organization and that man; it's just reminded me of it.

:(

Just a cursory look at the site, and it reminded me of the incident recently where a father killed his 3-year old son (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=101&e=3&u=/po/20050715/co_po/manaccusedofkillinghisgaybabyson) because the child wasn't manly enough. I'm not drawing a direct connection between this organization and that man; it's just reminded me of it.

:(
Yes. Me too.

And apparently everything boils down to communism. Even daycare.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/wicked_witch_of_the_west_alive.htm#Day_care (make sure you scroll to the top of this page to see the wonderful poster:))

http://www.daycaresdontcare.org/History/History_page_2.htm

My goodness. I haven't found a single thing on this site that I don't object to vehemently. Cripes.

Ok, let's see, since I just became a father 7 weeks ago, I better take the test to see if I'm actually qualified:
1) Fear of rough and tumble play
Yes, definitely a tick there. I hated that as a kid!

2) Lack of same-sex playmates
Unitil I was ten I only had girls as friends. Then I went to a boys school. Still had mostly girls as friends.

3) Dislike of team sports
Definitely. Apart from Volleyball - because the teams are seperated by a net.

4) Doll play
Another tick there

5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
I always thought women's clothes are more interesting than men's clothes.

6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
Mannerisms definitely - I liked to nurse them up and present them to my unsuspecting public. "My, don't you talk funny!" was an often heard comment.

7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
Did that. Unavoidable when going to a single sex school.

8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.
What, including periods and giving birth? No way, I'm too much of a whimp for that.


So 7 out of 8! See,s I'm quite good dad material, after all. Unless I misunderstood something?


[/QUOTE]

Owww...and here is where they post mail to Fathers for Life:

http://www.fathersforlife.org/mail/mail_for_F4L.htm
From: Janna Goldrup jannagoldrup@yahoo.ca
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 11:22 PM
To: Fathers for Life
Subject: Fathers for Life

Dear Mr. Schneider,

I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to get linked to your Fathers For Life website as a result of a google search. Wow. You are one of the most sexist and bigoted men that I've come across in my life. But yet you are intelligent enough to put together a website to spread your woman-bashing smut....will wonders never cease? But I'm sure you've heard it all, so I won't waste anymore of your time.

Sincerely,

Ms. Janna Goldrup

ps - From the content of your website, I would have sworn you were a card-carrying Republican. But a Canadian!? How embarrassing!

Then read the page of ranting about her that follows. He complains that her letter is an ad hominem attack, but he gives back much worse...and gets downright nasty as he 'investigates' her.

And it would be nice if guys didn't feel pressured into working insane hours, or in dangerous conditions, or far away from their families so they could BE the best dad they could be (sounds like I'm an army recruiter:)). I can't wait until it is normal that men spend as much time with their kids as moms are expected to (preferable together), that dads take their kids in for their shots or medical visits half the time instead of moms being expected to take the time off work every time (and then vilified for it).

My husband took my daughter in to get a vaccination the other day, and said that the nurses all looked at him like he had an extra head (but in a good way). They couldn't believe a man would come in by himself with his child...because it's not something they ever see.

Anyway...I think more dads could be better dads if it weren't for backwards-looking folks like these Fathers for Life who want the woman in the kitchen, the children seen and not heard, and the man to be manly and working.

Sin- at my last job I worked over 70 hours a week-and my cel phone still rang overnight and on Sundays. A lot of us do what we have to do. When I worked tha many hours, my wife didnt work and had a lot of time to spend with the kids, take them to the beach,park-whatever, as well as socialize with her friends and maintain sanity.
A lot of us do what we have to. I would rather make the sacrafices than share them with my wife, or have my kids do without something.
I took my daughter for a routine blood work yesterday and I often take them all for sick visits to the doctor. I happen to be the one that gets direct answers to our questions and I also work out whatever bills there may be. My wife cannot deal on a bill-she just writes out the check for the full amount.

As far as the wife being in the kitchen- thats about 50/50 in our house. And house work? There are never dishes sitting in our sink or dirty laundry anywhere. I do a load or two of wash a day-I only ask that my wife fold it, as I am terrible at that.
I look at it this way-its my kids and my house too- I want everyone and every thing to be happy, healthy, clean and well maintained. So I do whatever I can, when it needs doing. I'm not the type that says-"Thats my wife's job" or "Its her turn".

Oh no...now I'm REALLY embarrassed....this site is not only Canadian...IT'S ALBERTAN! (my province) Arrggghhh!!!

http://www.fathersforlife.org/contact.htm

Sometimes, Just the kids and I will go out for ice cream or to the movies or something fun. It gives my wife a break.
I dont know if its me or what, but I feel like sometimes people will observe us and think its my weekend for visitation-ever get that feeling?
My wife works from home, so now, during the summer, I often take the kids out for an hour here and there-to the library, the store-whatever, to give her some quiet time to get some work done. I wonder if people think I'm divorced or what.

Oh no...now I'm REALLY embarrassed....this site is not only Canadian...IT'S ALBERTAN! (my province) Arrggghhh!!!

http://www.fathersforlife.org/contact.htm


Funny thing about shitheads, huh? They can be anywhere.

Sometimes, Just the kids and I will go out for ice cream or to the movies or something fun. It gives my wife a break.
I dont know if its me or what, but I feel like sometimes people will observe us and think its my weekend for visitation-ever get that feeling?
My wife works from home, so now, during the summer, I often take the kids out for an hour here and there-to the library, the store-whatever, to give her some quiet time to get some work done. I wonder if people think I'm divorced or what.
Hmmm...maybe some do. Poor them.

You think YOU got it bad...imagine my brother (who was 17 at the time) carrying my daughter around while I did some shopping...he got the evil eye from some elderly women...teenage father! Arghhh! :eek:

Oh no...now I'm REALLY embarrassed....this site is not only Canadian...IT'S ALBERTAN! (my province) Arrggghhh!!!

http://www.fathersforlife.org/contact.htm

Well, isn't that something. Although you have to admit Sinuhue if it was going to be Canadian, what other province than Alberta could it possibly come from? ;)

Don't get me wrong, lovely province, but it is the home of the crazy crack-pot conservatives here in Canada.

Well, isn't that something. Although you have to admit Sinuhue if it was going to be Canadian, what other province than Alberta could it possibly come from? ;)

Don't get me wrong, lovely province, but it is the home of the crazy crack-pot conservatives here in Canada.
Too true.

Oh no...now I'm REALLY embarrassed....this site is not only Canadian...IT'S ALBERTAN! (my province) Arrggghhh!!!

http://www.fathersforlife.org/contact.htm
Ah, now it makes sense - Alberta, the province that is home to Canada's small and thankfully not growing population of neo-conservative Republican wannabes.

Groups that Fathers for Life target as 'man-hating' or morally corrupt:

Hasbro. That's right. The toy maker.
Ford Motors
Royal LePage (realtors)
Girl Guides (not Boy Scouts of course)
The United Way
Sony
The Olympics 2008 (for being in Toronto)

Ah, now it makes sense - Alberta, the province that is home to Canada's small and thankfully not growing population of neo-conservative Republican wannabes.Even worse...the town this guy is from is not all that far from mine....*shudders*

Ah, now it makes sense - Alberta, the province that is home to Canada's small and thankfully not growing population of neo-conservative Republican wannabes.

You're lucky. We've got a pretty bad infestation here in the States; at least yours aren't breeding.

Even worse...the town this guy is from is not all that far from mine....*shudders*
you poor dear... here, have a fluffle... :fluffle:

You're lucky. We've got a pretty bad infestation here in the States; at least yours aren't breeding.
They're breeeding, but free thought is mandatory here... :p

They're breeeding, but free thought is mandatory here... :p

Oh...you're using pesticide on them. Good idea. ;)

You're lucky. We've got a pretty bad infestation here in the States; at least yours aren't breeding.
No, ours are inbreeding:) Hopefully they'll wipe themselves out!

Oh no...now I'm REALLY embarrassed....this site is not only Canadian...IT'S ALBERTAN! (my province) Arrggghhh!!!
"Better the devil you know..."?

http://www.fathersforlife.org/humour/MD_moral_dilemma.htm

IF your gay and you know it clap your hands.............(tumble weed).............
...(bird).......(some other stuff blowing by).

Sinuhue, out of curiousity what brought this website to your attention?

I was looking at those responses to e-mail, and I came across this:

Yes, it is possible for a woman to give birth to fraternal twins that have two different fathers

:confused: Is this true…

Sinuhue, out of curiousity what brought this website to your attention?
I found it a while ago when I was searching for feminist resources...this came up right away because of the number of times the word 'feminist' is mentioned.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/humour/MD_moral_dilemma.htm
hahahahaaaahahahaaaa....

the only funny thing on that 'humour' page!

I was looking at those responses to e-mail, and I came across this:



:confused: Is this true…
I read that too...he gives all sorts of googled information about it, but I thought it wasn't possible...?

I found it a while ago when I was searching for feminist resources...this came up right away because of the number of times the word 'feminist' is mentioned.

Makes a lot of sense... :). Someone had just informed me of the site yesterday so it was intriguing to hear it mentioned again in so short a time.

Makes a lot of sense... :). Someone had just informed me of the site yesterday so it was intriguing to hear it mentioned again in so short a time.
And what did this person have to say to you about the site? In what context did they discover it?

I brought it to people's attention a couple of months ago too...the whole Bozzy-avoiding-his-own-anti-feminist-thread fiasco brought it to mind again.

And what did this person have to say to you about the site? In what context did they discover it?

I brought it to people's attention a couple of months ago too...the whole Bozzy-avoiding-his-own-anti-feminist-thread fiasco brought it to mind again.

It was something under wiki moderation I believe.

I read that too...he gives all sorts of googled information about it, but I thought it wasn't possible...?

Of course it's true. Fraternal twins come from two separate eggs, fertilized by two different sperms (do you put an s on othe plural of sperm?). It is certainly possible to have sperm from two different men fertilize two different eggs at roughly the same time. Likely? No, but certainly possible.

It would not, of course, be possible to have identical twins with two separate fathers.

Of course it's true. Fraternal twins come from two separate eggs, fertilized by two different sperms (do you put an s on othe plural of sperm?). It is certainly possible to have sperm from two different men fertilize two different eggs at roughly the same time. Likely? No, but certainly possible.

It would not, of course, be possible to have identical twins with two separate fathers.
I'm just thinking about the time frame within which you'd have to sleep with two separate men (obstensibly withouth at least one of them knowing) for this to happen. Meh. Anyway.

Having browsed the website, I can't believe it's not a spoof. Like that protest-warrior website.

Having browsed the website, I can't believe it's not a spoof. Like that protest-warrior website.
Nope. This guy is really serious. And what is the protest-warrior site?

Nope. This guy is really serious. And what is the protest-warrior site?

http://www.protestwarrior.com/

You aren’t going to like it.

Being molested doesn't make somebody gay. That's pretty stupid, really.

I met a guy who is the biggest, most insecure homophobic manwhore and he was molested as a child. It's almost like he goes after all these women to prove that he isn't gay.

He's such a prick too. He got all pissy because his gf, who he is cheating on, was spending time with a male friend.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/

You aren’t going to like it.

There's a video on there showing the protest "warriors" getting their arses kicked by the Black Block! :D

There's a video on there showing the protest "warriors" getting their arses kicked by the Black Block! :D
Hmmm...why is this a spoof? I guess I haven't looked it over enough...it seems real enough...

Hmmm...why is this a spoof? I guess I haven't looked it over enough...it seems real enough...

It is real, it's just so fucking funny that I couldn't believe it wasn't a spoof!

There's a video on there showing the protest "warriors" getting their arses kicked by the Black Block! :D
Which?

I'm just thinking about the time frame within which you'd have to sleep with two separate men (obstensibly withouth at least one of them knowing) for this to happen. Meh. Anyway.

I may be wrong, but I believe you can become pregnant with fraternal twins over the course of a day or two. Once the embryo is implanted, your body shouldn't release any more eggs, but until then, there's a slim chance.

If you had a few hours (say, you slept with your husband and then went to meet your lover), chances would be more likely.

I doubt this happens very often, however.

Hey! What do you know ... I *am* gay!
No, you're just Jewish... :p

Seriatem

1) Fear of rough and tumble play
No matter how much I ate, I did not put on weight until I was in the Army. I jumped from 120 to 160 (+ 3" height) in 9 weeks. Skinny Geeks don't like being broken by fat bastards.

2) Lack of same-sex playmates
I had NO "playmates" from (as early as I can accurately remember) 2nd Grade to 12th Grade.

3) Dislike of team sports
I was on the Rifle (Shooting) team and the 1&3m springboard Diving Team. All individual sports with tram averages.

4) Doll play
Only to blow them up. ...

5) Cross dressing or interest in women's clothes or shoes
Does Swimming Suit/Lingerie design count?

6) Effeminate speech or mannerism
Only when playing D&D...

7) Playacting in which the boy takes a feminine part.
Only when playning D&D

8) Frequent statements that he wants to be a girl or is a girl.
Only when channeling my inner pole-dancer.... :D

was looking at those responses to e-mail, and I came across this:Yes, it is possible for a woman to give birth to fraternal twins that have two different fathers :confused: Is this true…

A couple of biological bits here:

#1 - If a woman attends an Orgy or 2 within 24 hours... ya bet your booty.

#2 - If the Males in question are intact (uncircumcised), then the odds go down because one of the biological functions of the foreskin is to act as a suction device pulling previous ejacula away from the cervex. Circumcised males do not have this advantage and their sperm may mix relatively freely during "sloppy seconds" and swim happily onward. :eek:

Religion & culture do in another sound bit of evolution...

A couple of biological bits here:

#1 - If a woman attends an Orgy or 2 within 24 hours... ya bet your booty.

#2 - If the Males in question are intact (uncircumcised), then the odds go down because one of the biological functions of the foreskin is to act as a suction device pulling previous ejacula away from the cervex. Circumcised males do not have this advantage and their sperm may mix relatively freely during "sloppy seconds" and swim happily onward. :eek:

Religion & culture do in another sound bit of evolution...

I’m just glad I’ve eaten already, because that was… unappetizing.

I’m just glad I’ve eaten already, because that was… unappetizing.
Sorry. Tried to be as clinical as I could.... ;)

But if you want unappetizing, there's always 92% of the Porn out there... :rolleyes:

There's a video on there showing the protest "warriors" getting their arses kicked by the Black Block! :D

link please. i wanna see this, but i can't find :( .

There's not much I found to agree with there.

Hmmm...maybe some do. Poor them.

You think YOU got it bad...imagine my brother (who was 17 at the time) carrying my daughter around while I did some shopping...he got the evil eye from some elderly women...teenage father! Arghhh! :eek:

You should have seen the evil eyes I got from Japanese men when I was going out with a J-girl who boxed. Not exercise boxing - the real full-contact deal that left her with a an occassional blackeye.

It is real, it's just so fucking funny that I couldn't believe it wasn't a spoof!

i'm glad i wasn't the only one. i mean, come on, look at their logo.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/protest_gallery/us/protest_warrior_logo.jpg

it's just dripping with homoerotic fascism. i remember thinking "there's no way they could be serious with a logo like that."