NationStates Jolt Archive

I found this on a blog I go to alot, thought it was very interesting.

am not greatly taken in by America's "democracy", particularly as it is gradually vanishing under the pressure of the war. Certainly I would never fight and kill for such a phantasm. I do not greatly admire the part "my country" has played in world events. I consider that spiritually America has lost all meaning... I feel identified with my country in a deep sense, and want her to regain her meaning, her soul, if that is possible: but the unloading of a billion tons of bombs on Afghanistan won't help this forward an inch... Whereas the rest of the nation is content with calling down obloquy on Bin Laden's head, we [pacifists] regard this as superficial. Bin Laden requires, not condemnation, but understanding. This does not mean that we like, or defend him. Personally I do not care for Bin Laden. He is, however, "realler" than Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc, in that he is the vehicle of raw historical forces, whereas they are stuffed dummies, waxwork figures, living in unreality. We do not desire an al-Qaeda "victory"; we would not lift a finger to help either America or al-Qaeda to "win"; but there would be a profound justice, I feel, however terrible, in an al-Qaeda victory...

Blog is http://www.lt-smash.us/

*Note, the quote was altered by Smash I believe
*Orgininal is here http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/07/17/moral_equivalence_now_and_then.php

I sense that there will be some harsh words spoken in this thread before long.

I'm not American, so I can't make a real judgement, but I agree in many points.
I would want to know first though what an "Al-Qaeda victory" would look like.

Terrorists should be brought to justice, but their motives should be understood.

I do not feel that America loses anything. The American virtue that I feel runs deeper than democracy is our need to succeed and our ambition. Spiritually we are similar to what we once were. The cold war already purged the idea that democracy was superior to victory in the culture of America. Although many people feel that our freedoms being curtailed in order to defend ourselves from al-Qaeda is a major blow the fact is that we have walked down the path of war many times and we have learned that it is not democracy that makes our country great but instead the feelings of victory over any foe.

This is just my opinion(and crappy attempt at writing)

I found this on a blog I go to alot, thought it was very interesting.

am not greatly taken in by America's "democracy", particularly as it is gradually vanishing under the pressure of the war. Certainly I would never fight and kill for such a phantasm. I do not greatly admire the part "my country" has played in world events. I consider that spiritually America has lost all meaning... I feel identified with my country in a deep sense, and want her to regain her meaning, her soul, if that is possible: but the unloading of a billion tons of bombs on Afghanistan won't help this forward an inch... Whereas the rest of the nation is content with calling down obloquy on Bin Laden's head, we [pacifists] regard this as superficial. Bin Laden requires, not condemnation, but understanding. This does not mean that we like, or defend him. Personally I do not care for Bin Laden. He is, however, "realler" than Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc, in that he is the vehicle of raw historical forces, whereas they are stuffed dummies, waxwork figures, living in unreality. We do not desire an al-Qaeda "victory"; we would not lift a finger to help either America or al-Qaeda to "win"; but there would be a profound justice, I feel, however terrible, in an al-Qaeda victory...

Blog is http://www.lt-smash.us/

*Note, the quote was altered by Smash I believe
*Orgininal is here http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/07/17/moral_equivalence_now_and_then.php

I have to agree.

It's pretty apparent that, in the very least, America has lost much of its support worldwide, and international confidence in our decision-making processes. Perhaps we need a 21st century FDR.

Terrorists should be brought to justice, but their motives should be understood.

agreed.

Terrorists should be brought to justice, but their motives should be understood.

Exactly, I could see myself killing to protect my property, and if I lived in a society where everyone was saying that a “Great Satan” was out to take it away, and I believed I’d go strait to heaven if I became a martyr , you better believe I’d strap a bomb to myself.

However, I think it takes a certain amount of perversion to callously lop somebody’s head off or torture them to death. We have those in the US, they are called cereal killers. Here, they get put in jail; over there, they work for the government and insurgencies. People are people no matter where you go.

...they are called cereal killers...
Hehe, i never looked at the Coco Pops monkey quite the way I do now...

Exactly, I could see myself killing to protect my property, and if I lived in a society where everyone was saying that a “Great Satan” was out to take it away, and I believed I’d go strait to heaven if I became a martyr , you better believe I’d strap a bomb to myself.

However, I think it takes a certain amount of perversion to callously lop somebody’s head off or torture them to death. We have those in the US, they are called cereal killers. Here, they get put in jail; over there, they work for the government and insurgencies. People are people no matter where you go.

I assume you mean "serial" killers? Thy don't murder Trix as far as I know. :p

I agree. Just because you're told it is right and believe it doesn't mean you are excused from wrongdoing. The acts terrorists do are inexcusably wrong and should not be equivocated with anything else. They are a terrible evil that has to be stopped for the sake of human life.

I think most of you have missed the point of this thread. If you read the orginial verison of the quote you will note that it was written at the start of WW2, agruing against Britain fighting Germany. As we know now it was the right thing to fight Germany, but at the beginning of the war some had their doubts just as people have doubts about fighting the war on terrorism. In sixty years people might wonder why alot of people in the early 21st century were against the war on terrorism.

Exactly, I could see myself killing to protect my property, and if I lived in a society where everyone was saying that a “Great Satan” was out to take it away, and I believed I’d go strait to heaven if I became a martyr , you better believe I’d strap a bomb to myself.

That is one reason I don't believe in the democratic movement in Iraq. Much of the population has an uncanny devotion to their religious leaders, for no other reason than the authority religious hierarchy provides. It will take generations of economic and educational development to cure this, and until then democratic elections will be religiously motivated.

However, I think it takes a certain amount of perversion to callously lop somebody’s head off or torture them to death. We have those in the US, they are called SERIAL killers. Here, they get put in jail; over there, they work for the government and insurgencies. People are people no matter where you go.

Yes, civilian targeting terrorism is a crime no matter what form it takes, whether it be bombing or cutting heads off, and should be treated as such.

I think most of you have missed the point of this thread. If you read the orginial verison of the quote you will note that it was written at the start of WW2, agruing against Britain fighting Germany. As we know now it was the right thing to fight Germany, but at the beginning of the war some had their doubts just as people have doubts about fighting the war on terrorism. In sixty years people might wonder why alot of people in the early 21st century were against the war on terrorism.

I agree with much of both statements, however, I also see both as being seriously flawed in that they both call for no attempt to defeat Germany or Bin Laden. Violent oppression must be stopped, and free societies must be fostered.

-snip-
I doubt it.
In 1939, it was a war of nations, it was legal by international law, it was reasoned and fairly straight-forward war.
This is a political construct more than anything else. You are fighting nations because you can't fight terrorists. They don't want to be fought, so they don't.
This is very different indeed.

As we know now it was the right thing to fight Germany, but at the beginning of the war some had their doubts just as people have doubts about fighting the war on terrorism. In sixty years people might wonder why alot of people in the early 21st century were against the war on terrorism.

Maybe, if in 60 years time someone shows me evidence that taking military action against iraq and calling it a war on terror was a good thing and something we had to do, then maybe i'll change my mind. Until then i'll remain cynical.

There's an oft quoted saying that "retrospect makes genius of us all" in the WWII case, it now appears obvious. The case of terrorism and the 'righteousness' of the war in Iraq, history has yet to have passed...the alternative 60year futures could include:
1: it was absolutely the right thing to do, the modern world needed the peace and stability that this war helped bring into effect.
2: absolutely the worst thing to do and led to the end of the modern world as we know it, it destabilised the region and domino effected all surrounding regions until the world divided into two camps and one half destroyed the other half...
3: It's somewhere inbetween and in the end didn't matter either way...

At this juncture of confluences in history, i feel that the evidence is leading towards a destabilising and polarising of ideals and people's position in the world....for the majority...minority opinions hold that the entrophic effects of terrorism (ie: terrorism leads to more terrorism and repression on both sides) should be fought and more work needs to be done in terms of understanding each other and peaceful resolutions...i personally know more about Islam, the middle east and other related issues than i ever would of cared about before september 11, so in that respect, i feel i am in the second camp...i hope this is useful to people, love to hear what you all think...
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