NationStates Jolt Archive

I wondered something earlier today.

Why are the empires, such as The Roman Empire, so widely respected throughout the world?

If you were alive during the time of Ceasar's empire in Europe, you would not have been so pleased with the Roman Empire. For they would be the ones knocking down buildings, ransacking nations, raping women, and destroying cultures as they plow them down in their expansion. You most certainly would not respect them.

Then I soon realized the cultural aspects of the Roman Empire. Their scholars and philosophers and "scientists" made great cultural and scientific achievements. Achievements that are still widely used and well known throughout the world.

So then I wondered. In one thousand years, provided we are still alive...how will our modern day countries be respected/scoffed at by our descendants? Apparently we look two thousand years into the past and see PAST The Roman Empire's imperialist reign and warmongering and we see PAST the eventual collapse. We only see their cultural advancements to society and to the world.

So if this trend continues...how will nations of today be seen?

My OPINIONS, not the truth:

British Empire - Possibly will be seen as one of the most successful empires in history. For they lasted as long as they did in history (I have no clue how long into the future Britain will last, obviously not forever) and in that long and rather bloody period of time they managed many many many achievements in science and the likes. They also indeed speed up the development of the world's nations.

Soviet Union - Probably will be seen as a could've, would've, should've scenario. How if certain factors did not come into play, perhaps the Soviet Union would've lasted a bit or significantly longer.

Take the damn thread and do with it what you will. ;) I'm off to dinner and real life!

The united states will be seen as a conservative nation with a very free and powerful economy and great influence across the world. It would probably be considered a great empire to some extent.

China will probably be considered a very orderly and strict nation with a large population. It will be seen as having a highly controlled economy but as also adaptable(it has sacrificed ideology for progress). It will be noted for its great economic growth and its high exports(ultimately its use of its large labor force)

The soviet union will probably be seen as a nation of evil and corruption. The ultimate result of a bad(or good if you are a futuristic marxist) idea. The rapid industrialization of it will be admired but the harsh dictators will probably be demonized. The russia of today will be seen as the result of its evil dictators and their mismanagement of the nation.

The french will of course be seen as cheese eating surrender monkeys(just kidding :D )

Couldn't resist, so now it's a joke at the expense of the French:
Q: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
A: No one knows, they've never tried.

Then I soon realized the cultural aspects of the Roman Empire. Their scholars and philosophers and "scientists" made great cultural and scientific achievements.

Actually, to be honest, the Romans were pretty crap when it came to philosophers: Lucretius, Marcus Aurelius and Cicero are all minor thinkers compared to the Greeks that came before them and neo-Platonist early Christians that came after them.

Depends on how far in the future you go, but I would think the US will be primarily remembered for the Nukes and for going to the Moon.

China is nowhere near its' peak yet. We'll see when they get there.

Europe now? I often wondered whether we are to the Americans what the Greeks were to the Romans...
I hope not, but only time will tell.

Q: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
A: No one knows, they've never tried.
Except in 1871 for example....

I think the UN will be remembered as a great idealist dream that never came to be. China will be remembered as the greatest world superpower, depiste its strict laws etc. The USA might be remembered, but the Chinese will probably remove most of the stuff about it in the textbooks when they rule the planet. (And they are taking over. Heck, a family just moved into our block. it's a conspiracy!!! ;))

I think the UN will be remembered as a great idealist dream that never came to be. China will be remembered as the greatest world superpower, depiste its strict laws etc. The USA might be remembered, but the Chinese will probably remove most of the stuff about it in the textbooks when they rule the planet. (And they are taking over. Heck, a family just moved into our block. it's a conspiracy!!! ;))
The Vietnamese have already begun phase one of their plans for revenge on the U.S.

"Phase One! We take ova the nail salons! We work from toe up!"

Except in 1871 for example....

Don’t forget the Taxi Cab Defense. Just as inspirational as the Alamo IMHO. I get all tingly when I read about it or see the footage from the press. A relatively weaker republic taking on an imperialist monarchy, almost always a good thing.

Empires and why are they respected?

Logistics in Rome's case. My namesake constantly prattles on about just how effecient the Roman logistics machine was in all his books. They united men from all over the world, by enslavement or by enticement, and they just made it work, no matter what they were doing.

Simply put, Rome was big, cruel, and long lasting. But mostly, they had their sh*t together, and they kept their sh*t together.

China's empire(s) are known for Beaucracy. The workings of government, organizing, recording, filing, examining. Not as effecient as Rome's at logistics, but somewhat less deadly to their political elites. When an empire fell, the beauracracy frequently stayed intact.

To put it bluntly, China was big, centralized, and yes...cruel. But also they were capable of reforming a government no matter what happened.

Britain's empire was built on trade; no matter what happened in the world, no matter who was killing who, SOMEONE wanted to buy what you had. And yes, if you didn't sell...they'd kill you and do it for you.

So basically, Britain was a small trading nation that spread over 1/4 of the globe to compensate. And yes...they were rather effecient and cruel.

Empires are efficient and cruel. Those are the two main principles of Empire, near as my short survey into the subject can gather. What makes us respect these various empires to various degrees is HOW WELL they balanced their efficiency and cruelty with the human factor. How long they lasted, how long they reign in relative peace over their domains.

It has to be done......

All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

:D

israel will seen by the jews as their ancient homeland, and probably will be memorial day for the end of the third countrey (and maybe even the forth). they will talk about the radicals fault in destroying (again) the jewish country.
the history will just repeat herself.

Don’t forget the Taxi Cab Defense. Just as inspirational as the Alamo IMHO. I get all tingly when I read about it or see the footage from the press. A relatively weaker republic taking on an imperialist monarchy, almost always a good thing.
The cabs had their timers ticking the whole time though...

Can I bring in what I believe will turn out to be a taboo subject here.

Historys view of Hitlers Nazi Germany

Discuss........................

It has to be done......
:D
Brought piggies! :D

America- Very influential conservative politically, civilly, and economically free.

England- -No opinion-

Russia- Needed countrywide development...

China- Harsh dictatorship; expanding, and growing nation.

Couldn't resist, so now it's a joke at the expense of the French:
Q: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
A: No one knows, they've never tried.
hahaha!

Can I bring in what I believe will turn out to be a taboo subject here.

Historys view of Hitlers Nazi Germany

Discuss........................
Depends on whom you ask. Normal people loathe the Nazis, but some unteachables adore them. I doubt that there will be much change in that anytime soon unless some country takes holocaust denial into its curriculum.

I believe that most peoples hatred of Nazi politics is entirely based on them being TOLD it is evil. How far right do you have to go to stop being conservative and start being faschist? Its a very thin line. I myself am extremely left leaning but I suspect many right wing people dont actually think the Nazis are as bad as they let on. (I probably shouldnt say that :rolleyes: )

I believe that most peoples hatred of Nazi politics is entirely based on them being TOLD it is evil. How far right do you have to go to stop being conservative and start being faschist? Its a very thin line. I myself am extremely left leaning but I suspect many right wing people dont actually think the Nazis are as bad as they let on. (I probably shouldnt say that :rolleyes: )Meh, all I know about holocaust denial and view of Nazis in the States is gleaned from a Seventh Heaven episode and the Factbook entries of Fascist regions. It would be interesting to hear a Nazi's opinion on this (though such people tend to disappear all of a sudden :p)

This is off topic, and my opinion of the Nazi's was that they were a poor nation that needed a scapegoat to restart their economy, and eventually they slipped out of that state, and into a completely racial conflict as they slowly lost their war. As for the Right-Wingers being close to Nazisism I think that statement is totally false, though that's hard to call an impartial judgment, as I am a right-winger, though am not a fully devoted pscho.

Id probably get blokked from the forum if i ended up in a "conversation" with a nazi! :mp5:

Same here lol :sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

That green dude disturbs me, is that meant to be some kind of chemical weapon............................ :(

The last time I had a conversation with a Nazi he got deleted.

The last time I had a conversation with a Nazi he got deleted.

LOL. Marvellous *shakes your hand and gives you a present*

Couldn't resist, so now it's a joke at the expense of the French:
Q: How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris?
A: No one knows, they've never tried.
Q - How many Frenchmen does it take to change a lightbulb?
A - Just the one to hold the bulb and wait for Europe to revolve around him.

I believe that most peoples hatred of Nazi politics is entirely based on them being TOLD it is evil. How far right do you have to go to stop being conservative and start being faschist? Its a very thin line. I myself am extremely left leaning but I suspect many right wing people dont actually think the Nazis are as bad as they let on. (I probably shouldnt say that :rolleyes: )so people don't hate him because he was dictator that killed his opposition? or try to conquer the world and lead to the most horrible war at the world (100 million dies- more than all the other deaths in the rest of the century as some reserches said)? or murdered milions of sicks, retarded and psychos? or made the holocust and murdered gypseys, blacks and 6 miliion jews? or enslaved the eastern europe? or rule in reign of terror?

come on, there is enough reasons to hate hitler and I even don't said all of them. every one should hate hitler not because he telled to, but because he know the facts.

The last time I had a conversation with a Nazi he got deleted.

Sorry, but this is the image that came into my head when I read that post:

http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/f/fe/225px-ErnstStavroBlofeld.jpg

:D

so people don't hate him because he was dictator that killed his opposition? or try to conquer the world and lead to the most horrible war at the world (100 million dies- more than all the other deaths in the rest of the century as some reserches said)? or murdered milions of sicks, retarded and psychos? or made the holocust and murdered gypseys, blacks and 6 miliion jews? or enslaved the eastern europe? or rule in reign of terror?

come on, there is enough reasons to hate hitler and I even don't said all of them. every one should hate hitler not because he telled to, but because he know the facts.The sad thing is, the only way to know the facts is if someone tells you about it. If the first and only thing you hear about Nazis is that they've been slandered by modern historians, you might end up believing it. Pisses me off to no end! :mad:

Sorry, but this is the image that came into my head when I read that post:

http://www.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/f/fe/225px-ErnstStavroBlofeld.jpg

:DNo problem. Blofeld is waaaaaaaay cool :D
(especially when Donald Pleasance played him)

The sad thing is, the only way to know the facts is if someone tells you about it. If the first and only thing you hear about Nazis is that they've been slandered by modern historians, you might end up believing it. Pisses me off to no end! :mad:
right, this is hard to believe how much brainwashing is easy.

come on, there is enough reasons to hate hitler and I even don't said all of them. every one should hate hitler not because he telled to, but because he know the facts.

SHOULD, SHOULD, SHOULD. Should is the key word. Everyone should have voted for someone other than a warmongering idiot called Dubya but they didnt. Life sucks and it is my opinion that there are more people who hate Hitler because society tells them to than most peolpe realise. Dont get me wrong. I loathe Hitler and everyone Nazi or in all honesty, I am inclined to dislike most right swinging people.

right, this is hard to believe how much brainwashing is easy.Makes me glad that holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.

How far right do you have to go to stop being conservative and start being fascist? Its a very thin line.
On the face of things conservatism has little to do with fascism, although if one does subscribe to a right-wing ideology, in essence the seeds are already there.

The dichotomy between left and right can be summed up in a simple formula. (As imparted by my A-Level History tutor, all those years ago..)

* Do you honestly believe that people in general are essentially good, honest, can take care of themselves and can be trusted to make the right decisions? - Then you're more likely to subscribe to a leftist ideology (like me).

* Do you honestly believe that people in general are essentially weak, unintelligent, corrupt (save for a select few) and cannot be trusted without a strong leader to define their lives for them? - Then you're more likely to subscribe to a rightist ideology.

Obviously, this is not watertight, but you get the general impression. The parallels between right leaders and fascism are many. Take Thatcher's anti-union policies, emphasis on the individual as opposed to the group; just about every US president's insistence on draconian anti-drug laws, effectively a heavy-handed form of social control via diktat. (Diktat - that which is dictated by an individual or collective.) Basically a manifest lack of trust in people and subjects, thus overt or covert manipulation of said people. That's what it boils down to basically.

On the face of things conservatism has little to do with fascism, although if one does subscribe to a right-wing ideology, in essence the seeds are already there.

The dichotomy between left and right can be summed up in a simple formula. (As imparted by my A-Level History tutor, all those years ago..)

* Do you honestly believe that people in general are essentially good, honest, can take care of themselves and can be trusted to make the right decisions? - Then you're more likely to subscribe to a leftist ideology (like me).

* Do you honestly believe that people in general are essentially weak, unintelligent, corrupt (save for a select few) and cannot be trusted without a strong leader to define their lives for them? - Then you're more likely to subscribe to a rightist ideology.

Obviously, this is not watertight, but you get the general impression. The parallels between right leaders and fascism are many. Take Thatcher's anti-union policies, emphasis on the individual as opposed to the group; just about every US president's insistence on draconian anti-drug laws, effectively a heavy-handed form of social control via diktat. (Diktat - that which is dictated by an individual or collective.) Basically a manifest lack of trust in people and subjects, thus overt or covert manipulation of said people. That's what it boils down to basically.

Yea, I'll go with that but Im starting to believe the rightist slightly more, I dont believe people need a strong leader but I dont particularly trust human nature.

Makes me glad that holocaust denial is illegal in Germany.
you know what funny? before some months the israeli police found in haifa neo-nazi that immigrate from russia because he had jewish grandfather, and there nothing that israel can do, because there isn't law against neo-nazism in Israel.

you know what funny? before some months the israeli police found in haifa neo-nazi that immigrate from russia because he had jewish grandfather, and there nothing that israel can do, because there isn't law against neo-nazism in Israel.

What a joke.

What a joke.
sometimes the israeli goverment just act after something is happened.they probably never thought there may be neo-nazis in israel.

I guess. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr Nazis.......................... :headbang:

you know what funny? before some months the israeli police found in haifa neo-nazi that immigrate from russia because he had jewish grandfather, and there nothing that israel can do, because there isn't law against neo-nazism in Israel.I find it quite interesting how someone like that can become a neo-nazi. I haven't heard of any dark-skinned white supremacists... I don't really mind there not being any laws against being a neo-nazi per se, but once they cross a legal line, lock 'em up. I'd be interested how his neighbors treated him though...

You know, it's ironic. Stalin had more people murdered in the Gulag workcamps than Hitler ever managed to gas in his KZ camps...and yet, everyone considers Hitler to be the incarnation of the devil, because he picked on the jews before everyone else, rather than just indiscriminately kill everyone he found annoying, while no one holds Stalin in lower regards than "just another soviet dictator" despite him being a more inhuman dictator than Hitler ever was.

History is written by the victors, and the Soviet Union was the main reason why Germany lost the war. Don't kid yourself, claiming it was the Americans alone that won the war. By the time Hitler's forces got dug in around Moscow, the red army had the man- and firepower to win the war on their own. As such, they were painted in a very pretty picture afterwards, and their own "indescretions" were happily overlooked in payment for their liberation of western countries.

The nazis were not shining examples of humanity, and the holocaust is not something that should ever be lauded, but don't go pinning them as worse than the soviets of the same era, just because they claimed religious reasons for mass murder, while the soviets didn't bother making up reasons at all.

Is it me or does history focus too much on Hitlers Persecution of the Jews. What about: Gays, Mentally ill people, Communists, Socialists, Lesbians among many others.

You know, it's ironic. Stalin had more people murdered in the Gulag workcamps than Hitler ever managed to gas in his KZ camps...and yet, everyone considers Hitler to be the incarnation of the devil, because he picked on the jews before everyone else, rather than just indiscriminately kill everyone he found annoying, while no one holds Stalin in lower regards than "just another soviet dictator" despite him being a more inhuman dictator than Hitler ever was.
Well, Stalin also had more time than Hitler. If Hitler had had the time and empire Stalin had, he would have been worse. It's also unlikely that the Nazis would have brought forth "friendlier" leaders than Hitler as the soviets brought forth "friendlier" leaders than Stalin.

Is it me or does history focus too much on Hitlers Persecution of the Jews. What about: Gays, Mentally ill people, Communists, Socialists, Lesbians among many others.
Christians, people who don't work enough, pacifists, Nostradamus-historians, dissidents, and foremost (next to the Jews) Gypsies.
Prisoner Markings (http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/GESUND/ARCHIV/GIF2/KL_GR.JPG)

I find it quite interesting how someone like that can become a neo-nazi. I haven't heard of any dark-skinned white supremacists... the immigration laws of israel give immidiate full citizenship to every partner of jew, his children and their partners, and his grandchildren and their partners. many of those aren't jews at all, but they immigrate to israel because it give them better lifes than what they have in eastern europe. and from million who immigrate this way (and are mostly isn't jewish), it is reasonable that some dozens are anti-semitic.

I don't really mind there not being any laws against being a neo-nazi per se, but once they cross a legal line, lock 'em up. I'd be interested how his neighbors treated him though...I think in the end he get punished about illegal spray paintings (of nazis symbols).

the immigration laws of israel give immidiate full citizenship to every partner of jew, his children and their partners, and his grandchildren and their partners. many of those aren't jews at all, but they immigrate to israel because it give them better lifes than what they have in eastern europe. and from million who immigrate this way (and are mostly isn't jewish), it is reasonable that some dozens are anti-semitic.
I knew about the citizenship deal, but I hadn't thought about it that way.

I think in the end he get punished about illegal spray paintings (of nazis symbols).That's good. That's something that's illegal over here too.

On the face of things conservatism has little to do with fascism, although if one does subscribe to a right-wing ideology, in essence the seeds are already there.
I see it more as a circle, at the extreme ends left goes over into right and vice versa. A good example are the National Sozialists, who not only had the socialist as a part in their name, but also as part of their programme. Still, the 3rd Reich is seen as practically exclusively right wing.
Either way, I don't think it will be seen in history books as a good or bad empire, basically because it was too short lived to be an empire.

With this definition in mind, even the US barely qualifies. I would really like to see how historians will see it, perhaps a cultural empire?
China and the Soviet Union both qualify, as they have the time span (ok the SU only briefly), the military, cultural and political expansion and dominion over other countries and cultures and sheer size.

I see it more as a circle, at the extreme ends left goes over into right and vice versa. A good example are the National Sozialists, who not only had the socialist as a part in their name, but also as part of their programme. Still, the 3rd Reich is seen as practically exclusively right wing.
Either way, I don't think it will be seen in history books as a good or bad empire, basically because it was too short lived to be an empire.

With this definition in mind, even the US barely qualifies. I would really like to see how historians will see it, perhaps a cultural empire?
China and the Soviet Union both qualify, as they have the time span (ok the SU only briefly), the military, cultural and political expansion and dominion over other countries and cultures and sheer size.
I think with the speeding of communication, the time frame history reports on has shrunk. The difference between the middle ages and today is that we have much more information on how things were. And both are different from the classical age.

That's good. That's something that's illegal over here too.still, it is ironic that in germany he may get bigger punishment than in israel.

I believe that most peoples hatred of Nazi politics is entirely based on them being TOLD it is evil. How far right do you have to go to stop being conservative and start being faschist? Its a very thin line. I myself am extremely left leaning but I suspect many right wing people dont actually think the Nazis are as bad as they let on. (I probably shouldnt say that :rolleyes: )
Says someone who calls himself "Anonymous"...

In any case, based on my own research seperate from my education, I've concluded that Nazi politics are indeed evil. What with the lies, betrayal, propaganda, war crimes, there is nowhere for them to hide from their evilness.

EEEEEVIIILLLLLLL!

Says someone who calls himself "Anonymous"...

The name of my nation is Anonymous Self, and is named after my favourite band. Must be a conspiracy................. Moron

The name of my nation is Anonymous Self, and is named after my favourite band. Must be a conspiracy................. Moron
You do realize that many trolls like to give themselves anonymous names, and have a tendancy to have few posts seeing as how they continuously get deleted. It's a profile. You fit in that profile. Don't blame me. I'm not random in my decisions.

You do realize that many trolls like to give themselves anonymous names, and have a tendancy to have few posts seeing as how they continuously get deleted. It's a profile. You fit in that profile. Don't blame me. I'm not random in my decisions.
well, in that forum, I think almost everyone is anonymus. that the greatness and the weakness of the internet.

Bad aspects of Rome: Pagan torture/slaughter of Christians, anything that happened in the Coliseum, forced conversion to Christianity under Constantine that defeated the entire purpose of Christ's message of willing conversion, governors that could not maintain their will in the face of mounting local opposition (i.e. Pilate), rampant hedonism, and paedophilia.


Good aspects of Rome: Roads, aqueducts, education, order brought to savage/barbarian lands, expediting the spread of the Gospel, and some other things I forgot.

Bad aspects of Rome: Pagan torture/slaughter of Christians, anything that happened in the Coliseum, forced conversion to Christianity under Constantine that defeated the entire purpose of Christ's message of willing conversion, governors that could not maintain their will in the face of mounting local opposition (i.e. Pilate), rampant hedonism, and paedophilia.


Good aspects of Rome: Roads, aqueducts, education, order brought to savage/barbarian lands, expediting the spread of the Gospel, and some other things I forgot.
...Foundations of modern day democracy?

...Foundations of modern day democracy?
wrong. the roman democracy has nothing to do with the modern day democracy eccept the name.
first, it was national meetings of the romans, not public choosens that lead the country and work only as politicians.
second, it was available only to rich free men. poors, slaves and women had no rights.
also, their leader was the ceaser that wasn't chosen in democratic way, there were no freedom of religion (everybody had to prey for their gods), their senate rule only in domestic issues, and their provinces people had no rights at all.
their democracy was un-democratic, and far away from the modern democracy that established at the 18 centaury by the enlightment movement.