NationStates Jolt Archive

Comment brought up in another thread spawned this
Should ANIMATED porn that depicts underage people be legal?

The original laws covering child pornography as explained to me were an attempt to protect our children by making the consumption of a product that can in no way be produced without committing molestation or statutory rape. As it is while libertarian I think it was a necessary step to protect our children

BUT with animated depiction no kids are harmed in the production of it.

Should it still be illegal if this is not directly attempting to protect the actual children used in production


(poll coming may take a min)

It's pretty sick (especially the 5 year olds to the 11 year olds)

But how are you supposed to tell how "old" the animation is? Hmm?

I decided on the simple poll … there were too many option and any way I attempted to word it would have set people off with this (at least in my opinion) charged topic

no children were harmed, its not illegal

just disgusting.

cant go to jail for it but can be shunned by society for it.

no children were harmed, its not illegal

just disgusting.

cant go to jail for it but can be shunned by society for it.
I happen to agree … I find it sick but I have trouble banning things just because I find them distasteful

I happen to agree … I find it sick but I have trouble banning things just because I find them distasteful

+1

It's pretty sick (especially the 5 year olds to the 11 year olds)

But how are you supposed to tell how "old" the animation is? Hmm?

I view anime porn as comedy: They are people out there who are animating two cartoon characters bumping uglies with one another. There is a script writer who is trying to tie in sense into the orgy of cartoon pussy and dick. And lastly, someone out there is faking orgasm on a mic, pretending to be a high school girl character with urinal cake hair.

There is several animes that featured underage sex. KITE was a story about a girl who worked for some crooked cop after her parents were killed. She was 14 at the time and the cop constantly slept with him.

Do I think they should be banned? No, no child is harmed in making of the film, thus nothing illegal really happened.

Like most anime, it's mostly just shock and style over substance.

Canada City']I view anime porn as comedy: They are people out there who are animating two cartoon characters bumping uglies with one another. There is a script writer who is trying to tie in sense into the orgy of cartoon pussy and dick. And lastly, someone out there is faking orgasm on a mic, pretending to be a high school girl character with urinal cake hair.

There is several animes that featured underage sex. KITE was a story about a girl who worked for some crooked cop after her parents were killed. She was 14 at the time and the cop constantly slept with him.

Do I think they should be banned? No, no child is harmed in making of the film, thus nothing illegal really happened.

Like most anime, it's mostly just shock and style over substance.
I was just talking about the pictures, thanks for all the mental images...........................:eek:

Ladies and gentlemen, my sarcasm is done.

I was just talking about the pictures, thanks for all the mental images...........................:eek:

No problem.

I think animated porn is just lame as it is. Let people masturbate to cartoon characters, it's not my problem they have issues.

Child pornography laws should be imposed to protect those that are unable to fully understand the gravity of their actions, they should not be there to restrain people from doing things that the majority of society finds disgusting.

Like all porn, I can't make a decision until I see it. :eek:

Like all porn, I can't make a decision until I see it. :eek:
Nice, but you might've wanted to save that for a DIFFERENT kind of porn. :D

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.

I hate hentai/anime. I find its extremely exaggerated proportions and melodramatic, unrealistic (even for fantasy, imo) situations unenticing. However, since it involves no real people, I fail to see why there should be any restriction in regards to its content.

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.
Well, a check on the serial killing.

It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.

Where the hell have you been? Serial killing and rape have been in animation for quite some damn time.

99.98% of anime porn involves rape.

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.
That as far as I know IS legal right now as long as no one is actually harmed

Nice, but you might've wanted to save that for a DIFFERENT kind of porn. :DDon't worry, I do. :p

I think it should be illegal, and my reasoning is that it is harmful to society as a whole. I would include written porn about children in the same category. Our children should be protected, not just for their benefit but for ours. With adults as the subjects, I have no problem, though.

I realise that these things fall under the blanket "artistic license", and that in advocating limiting it I am tredding on freedom of expression ideals.

That said, I would probably never support a move to make it illegal, but take a back seat. I happen to believe in those freedom of expession ideals.


If you're interested, Canada's Courts have faced, dealt with, and are still dealing with, the issue of defining "child pornography" for the purpose of law. Most everyone agrees that the current definitions are too vague and wide-sweeping, and open to be abused. However, "Subsection (5) clearly refers to an actual person who has been in some way recorded, which may change the interpretation of images which have no relation to any real person."
http://www.slais.ubc.ca/people/students/resumes/S_Wildflower/canada.htm

I can't even begin to describe how sick I think that is, but I still think it ought to be legal.
After all, if somebody was to write a story involving scenes of underage pornography, it would be legal, no restrictions would apply. So on what grounds should an animated movie be illegal? A real movie should of course remain illeal, there is no excuse whatsoever for doing that to children. But an animated story? Nobody gets hurt.

To me, it's freedom of expression and freedom of art. I do realise how ironic this sounds given the context, but then again, you have to take the bad with the good.

I happen to agree … I find it sick but I have trouble banning things just because I find them distasteful

+2

+2
Wow must be one of the rare times I actually stated myself decently eloquently lol

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.
And yet murder is one of the number one topics we have on TV today...

Wow must be one of the rare times I actually stated myself decently eloquently lol

Ya just made a whole bunch 'o sense, UT. It deserved the double-ditto.

Ya just made a whole bunch 'o sense, UT.
Thank you kind sir or ma’am :)

Thank you kind sir or ma’am :)

I be a sir--well, male, anyway. Being an American we have trouble getting knighted.

Yep. Should be legal, and it is here. Example: Shota and lolicon.

It's the same thing as showing just nude kids on something. It goes under the heading of a thought crime if illegalized, which is a scary thing to get into. Even scarier than animated underage porn.

I think it should be illegal, and my reasoning is that it is harmful to society as a whole. I would include written porn about children in the same category. Our children should be protected, not just for their benefit but for ours. With adults as the subjects, I have no problem, though.

I realise that these things fall under the blanket "artistic license", and that in advocating limiting it I am tredding on freedom of expression ideals.

That said, I would probably never support a move to make it illegal, but take a back seat. I happen to believe in those freedom of expession ideals.


If you're interested, Canada's Courts have faced, dealt with, and are still dealing with, the issue of defining "child pornography" for the purpose of law. Most everyone agrees that the current definitions are too vague and wide-sweeping, and open to be abused. However, "Subsection (5) clearly refers to an actual person who has been in some way recorded, which may change the interpretation of images which have no relation to any real person."

A very interesting arguement. Though some series, noted as Kite, portray HORROR. The movie wasn't intended as porn, the scene was supposed to disgust your very being itself. The wicked horrible carnal acts done by the officer only goes along with his justification for killing of celebrities because of their horrible role-models. Kite's edited version didn't carry the sense of true horror and the mood didn't carry over for the dramatic ending. The sex scene was MADE to show you how this hate carried over to her very being. There is a love relationship in it between another orphan (no sex shown), but it is pure and portrays a loving relationship in the hell of their current world. The ending is very sad though.

Now as for the reason Anime has so much rape is because of Japanese laws, saying how consented sexual intercourse is not to be allowed on televison, well rape and other acts like that are a way around it. Though some is just sick, the origins of it was meant as a horrorific abuse of the spiritual, physical and mental parts of a person. Which is infact the only type of horror that can actually make me sick.

For the general 'bath scenes' and breast-showing, its a Western view on a Eastern belief. In Japan, breasts are typically shown as a symbol of motherhood and nurturing, though also used in sexual acts just plain breasts with no sexual acts is meant for beauty or portraying a lifestyle. Now if we all remember Mahoromatic it was a funny tie about this very thing and she scolds her master for looking at breasts lustfully. Then goes into a short rant about how they function for humanity and how he sickens her. (Totally funny!)

Now values are very different, but even in most anime there is a SMALL amount that would fit into this, and surprisingly some of it is mainstream. Dragonball, the series has had very very funny scenes about Goku discovering the difference between men and women....causing him to scream, wake poor Bulma up and then get a beating for it.

Inuyasha also has a breast showing part in the very first episode, the breasts on the centipede/lady (Boneeater's Well) was drawn. Though this is a very short scene and doesn't convey anything sexual some people wanted to censor it, actually to tell the truth, I couldn't see any real difference. Adult Swim has it unedited, yay!

American shows like Family Guy, most notable is Quagmire then Peter, has a seemingly endless stream of sex jokes, sex noises, sex refrences and sex talk! Let's see if I can name a few recent ones. Peter doing a pillow cause Lois isn't home. Oh! From one episode! Quagmire doing Cleaveland's wife. Quagmire at the mall, Quagmire spying on Lois in the bathroom. Quagmire having beds EVERYWHERE in his house. Cleaveland being scolded by his wife, sexually. I can't even begin to list all the ones.

As for some of the real anime porn...shameful and FUNNY!

La Blue Girl (I pissed myself laughing my ass off)
Cool Devices (made me sick)
Wicked City (again laughing so hard I had tears)

As for the others I can't remember any off-hand. Though all fake and fan-made ones can just go to hell. Those things are sick. We've all seen that stuff. Like Love Hina's Shinobu and Keitaro, which never happens. No sex actually takes place in the series, but lots of comedy does, and its supposed to be funny. (Actually a girls series, btw) True anime is usually clean with some nudity or whatever as a comical or needed for the plotline.

Example: Cowboy Bebop. A ex-soldier who was sent to prison because addicted to drugs. This changed his body so that he was part girl (breasts) and still was a guy, though he became gay as a result of mixing chemicals inside of his body. He's a sad and alone Jazz player, who's time is running short, all he wants is to die back where he was happiest, at war with his comrades. Though he dies in mid-flight, and travels out into space. This story is an hour long and was really sad, it was about betrayal and lies.

Differences do exist between the social borders. Just as an Arabic view on American Pop stars would be surprising. A woman dancing around in nearly nothing, singing about sex and seduction. That is worse then a whore and not to mention since they CAN be underage (and in a see-through top) and on public television! Which is worse?

Comment brought up in another thread spawned this
Should ANIMATED porn that depicts underage people be legal?

The original laws covering child pornography as explained to me were an attempt to protect our children by making the consumption of a product that can in no way be produced without committing molestation or statutory rape. As it is while libertarian I think it was a necessary step to protect our children

BUT with animated depiction no kids are harmed in the production of it.

Should it still be illegal if this is not directly attempting to protect the actual children used in production.
Pedophiles need no encouragement as it is. Allowing even animated or drawn depictions of sex between adults and minors just adds fuel to the fire. It also degrades the tone and tenor of society as a whole. "Regular" porn is bad enough, underage porn is sickening even when it's drawn or animated.

Pedophiles need no encouragement as it is. Allowing even animated or drawn depictions of sex between adults and minors just adds fuel to the fire. It also degrades the tone and tenor of society as a whole. "Regular" porn is bad enough, underage porn is sickening even when it's drawn or animated.

Well I would say there is a fine line between porn and beauty. Porn is meant as a lustful display meant to arouse. As a beautiful display of adult minor intercourse doesn't have to be dirty or crude. Such actions can be very lightly done and infact are more common then you would think. Such writing of incest and even visual hinting is traced back through the origin of art and writing. Its a odd subject, but porn itself displaying it shouldn't be praised, artful and USEFUL in a story or needed should be allowed.

-----------------
Note in Japan there is a very low criminal rate and yet the sexual material and violence material sometimes pales in comparison to that of the US. I have many friends in Japan, one girl tells of how her brother has a game where he is a teacher and is supposed to 'do it' with all the girls in the class. Though he completely knows its fake and would never do such things cause they are wrong. If Japan has so much of this and yet has a very honorable and moral system why would the US have such a problem with it? Because the United States people are IMMATURE. We view everything with sex as bad, unless its a joke! We view violence as commonplace and acceptable to speak, write and sing about! The US has a backwards view on things compared to the world. The world notes how sex is fine and isn't the biggest joke in the world. Violence on the other hand is appaling! Japan's sterotype of America's is that we all carry guns and LOVE to use violence to get our point across. With such songs, media and backing on it, I am actually thinking they are right. If you insult someone its always, LET'S DUKE IT OUT BITCH! Not the typical, "I'm sorry I should have held my tongue." Or if you bump into someone, "HEY! WATCH WEAR YOUR GOING JACKASS!" In Japan and most of the world it is "I'm sorry, excuse me."

Face it our morals are misplaced and growing worse if we are just recoginizing this as a problem, when it has existed since the 1960's yet child-rape crimes are rarely in the news and rarely occur.

Now as for the reason Anime has so much rape is because of Japanese laws, saying how consented sexual intercourse is not to be allowed on televison, well rape and other acts like that are a way around it.

That has to be the weirdest legal loophole I have ever heard of… ever.

It goes under the heading of a thought crime if illegalized, which is a scary thing to get into.
Exactly. Yup.

As disgusting as it is, it is free speech and should be legal.

However, I would add that it should be illegal for children to be involved in taping the voiceovers as well.

That has to be the weirdest legal loophole I have ever heard of… ever.

Things to know, age of consent is 13 in Japan. This is much younger and means that younger looking 'models' can be used to. The reasons they don't restrict the porn is cause: It does not set new limits on sexual drawings, collages, cartoons or stories that involve children because of concern such restrictions would infringe on freedom of speech.

Owning it and as for the general nudity:

In Japan, there is no law which criminalizes production, distribution and possession of child
pornography. However, Article 175 of the Penal Code generally prohibits and establishes a criminal
sanction for the distribution, sale, display and possession of obscene objects for the purpose of
commercialisation, and Article 34 of the Child Welfare Law Sanctions concerns, among other
things, engaging a child in promiscuous habit or illicit intercourse. In interpretation of these
statutes, it should be noted that simple nudity without the exposure of genitals is not generally
deemed obscene nor promiscuous.

BTW this should be noted as the REAL thing, this is not animated even.

well the definition for underage can vary from country to country... the age of consent differes.

however, my anime Hentai stuff does not have pre-adolesent stuff inside... does nothing for me.

Sick, Yes.
Involves living breathing human children.
No.

Legal.

Pedophiles need no encouragement as it is. Allowing even animated or drawn depictions of sex between adults and minors just adds fuel to the fire.

Can anyone say for certain what effect watching a piece of pornography will have on a given person? It's possible that it might "add fuel to the fire" for some, but it seems equally likely that the opposite might occur - i.e. that watching an animated Japanese schoolgirl might fulfill a paedophile's desires for a while and make it that much easier for him not to pursue real schoolgirls.

As for the poll question, I agree completely with UpwardThrust. I think animated child porn is disgusting, but I also think steamed clams are disgusting, and I'm not planning to try to have them banned anytime soon. Unless someone is actually being harmed, it's none of my business.

Things to know, age of consent is 13 in Japan. This is much younger and means that younger looking 'models' can be used to. The reasons they don't restrict the porn is cause:

Japan has a lot of weird laws. It isn’t illegal to solicit murder there. Now that is odd indeed.

I happen to agree … I find it sick but I have trouble banning things just because I find them distasteful


In general I tend to agree with your latter statement here, however, I am concerned that this will further influence/encourage pedafiles to normalize their affinity for that behavior. It is a very dangerous influence.

I tend to be very anti-regulation in many ways (seat belt laws, smoking laws etc) and should probably stick to that principle on this one as well. I do believe, however, there should be a huge public outcry and denounciation that is ongoing and very very LOUD! against anyone who produces or is known to sell or participate in or utilize this product.

Japan.
The one place where they sell used girl panties in vending machines.

Can anyone say for certain what effect watching a piece of pornography will have on a given person? It's possible that it might "add fuel to the fire" for some, but it seems equally likely that the opposite might occur - i.e. that watching an animated Japanese schoolgirl might fulfill a paedophile's desires for a while and make it that much easier for him not to pursue real schoolgirls.

As for the poll question, I agree completely with UpwardThrust. I think animated child porn is disgusting, but I also think steamed clams are disgusting, and I'm not planning to try to have them banned anytime soon. Unless someone is actually being harmed, it's none of my business.

They have 'outlets' for this to, and trust me its big business for that, so their is no need to have the 'illegal' part of it. Which is actually is a good thing because no one gets harmed and a few guys and girls get paid for a good time.


Japan has a lot of weird laws. It isn’t illegal to solicit murder there. Now that is odd indeed.

Yes, Japan does. However the actual crime rate is very small, less then the US and the laws are much more easy.

In general I tend to agree with your latter statement here, however, I am concerned that this will further influence/encourage pedafiles to normalize their affinity for that behavior. It is a very dangerous influence.

I tend to be very anti-regulation in many ways (seat belt laws, smoking laws etc) and should probably stick to that principle on this one as well. I do believe, however, there should be a huge public outcry and denounciation that is ongoing and very very LOUD! against anyone who produces or is known to sell or participate in or utilize this product.

Actually yes the law for that is as follows:

Article 7 - Distribution, etc. of Child pornography
1. A person who distributes, sells, lends as a business, or displays in public, child pornography
shall be punished with imprisonment with labor for not more than three years or a fine not exceeding
three million yen.

2. A person who produces, possesses, transports, imports to or exports from Japan child
pornography for the purpose of conducting any of the acts mentioned in the preceding paragraph
shall be punished with the same penalty as is described in the said paragraph.

3. A Japanese national who imports to or exports from a foreign country child pornography for the
purpose of conducting any of the acts mentioned in paragraph 1 of this article shall be punished
with the same penalty as is described in the said paragraph.


So yes they do have laws on it which are very good.

Eastern Coast America, you can find ANYTHING in a Vending machine. I know of that one machine that sells them.....Though you can buy complete sets of clothes from vending machines, booze and other junk!

Things to know, age of consent is 13 in Japan. This is much younger and means that younger looking 'models' can be used to. The reasons they don't restrict the porn is cause:

Owning it and as for the general nudity:



BTW this should be noted as the REAL thing, this is not animated even.


Meh, not that much lower. Age of consent is 14 in Canada.

Anyway, the way I view it is if it dosen't hurt anyone, let it be. As for the whole "encouragement of pedophilia" argument, it's quite possible that easy access to such material may help satisfy a pedophiles desire to do these things to minors. People don't just see something and then do it, even possible pedophiles can use common sense.

Actually yes the law for that is as follows:



So yes they do have laws on it which are very good.

Eastern Coast America, you can find ANYTHING in a Vending machine. I know of that one machine that sells them.....Though you can buy complete sets of clothes from vending machines, booze and other junk!

I think I must not have written clearly enough. I am opposed to laws against anything that does not cause direct physical harm to another individual, speed limits, seat belts, smoking, etc. Animation does not directly harm anyone and therefore should not be regulated or criminalized, though in many cases it already is.

However, just to be clear, as I have obviously been misunderstood once, I find the material that this thread was created to address to be indirectly dangerous to society, reprehensible, immoral and worthy of the harshest possible criticism, just not criminalization or regulation.

I think I must not have written clearly enough. I am opposed to laws against anything that does not cause direct physical harm to another individual, speed limits, seat belts, smoking, etc. Animation does not directly harm anyone and therefore should not be regulated or criminalized, though in many cases it already is.

However, just to be clear, as I have obviously been misunderstood once, I find the material that this thread was created to address to be indirectly dangerous to society, reprehensible, immoral and worthy of the harshest possible criticism, just not criminalization or regulation.

Well just like all things legal they can be used wrongly. Even cars can be indirectly dangerous.

Any of you read the old 'Ranxerox' series by Liberatore?

The adventures of 12 year-old junkie and prostitute, Lubna, and the semi-lifelike (and murderously obsessed) humanoid robot she owns and uses to score her heroin for her. In the future. In Rome.

I have volumes 1 & 2, which were printed by Catalan Publications, in Europe. Lubna's age is mentioned throughout.

Fast forward to the present - I acquired volume 3, printed in North America by Heavy Metal Press. Lubna is now somehow 18, though she hasn't aged a day. Nor have her child-prostitute pals, or the snarling gang of under-twelve hooligans they associate with.

I feel sooooooo protected, now. Protected from continuity. I didn't think I needed to be protected from Liberatore's narrative.

http://www.esensja.pl/magazyn/2001/01/img/ilustr/10_11g.jpg

Well just like all things legal they can be used wrongly. Even cars can be indirectly dangerous.

Certainly. But it is the "wrong" use that has to be criminalized. If I'm not directly harming you or anyone else, who are you or anyone else to tell me what I should or should not do?

Oh no, you're endangering the wellfare of a fictitious character!

Sure, it takes a special kind of scum to watch it, but who is it hurting?

Certainly. But it is the "wrong" use that has to be criminalized. If I'm not directly harming you or anyone else, who are you or anyone else to tell me what I should or should not do?

I was simply meaning, criminal use, ya deal with that in court. Legal use is all OK by me.

If the highly conservative and authoritarian nation of Japan has no problem with it, I can't see why me, being an anarcho-communist, would call for banning highly stylized drawings of little girls being raped. It's not like anyone is really being harmed in the making of such drawings, which I thought was why real child pornography is illegal.

I suppose you could argue that it fuels pædophilic desires, so to speak, but I think if anything, it's a tolerable substitute for real child porn. I also think we would be better off finding the roots of pædophilia itself rather than simply banning stylized depictions of pædophilic activity. Should we ban classic books like Lolita, too?

Things to know, age of consent is 13 in Japan.

I'm told that's more of a lower limit than anything. They can set it higher and in most places, it is 16 or so. I've heard that in several South American countries, the age of consent is 12!

Actually, in the United Kingdom Animated porn showing children having sex, naked or raped *IS* Illegal if you read the Child Protection Act, it states that all images, and videos showing children whether they be photo's, videos, pseudo-photos(I.E Animated or Cartoon) is totally illegal and can wind you in Jail.

Thats how it should be, i dont care if its animated, its wrong, disgusting and i dont give a shit if someone thinks its ok to watch, it isn't, plain and simple

The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 actually did ban virtual child porn in the United States. This included animation, writing, and a host of other things. It was struck down in a 6-3 ruling by the US Supreme Court due to its violation of the first amendment. Last I heard, there was a replacement law being introduced to try to skirt around the Supreme Court decision.I dont know what became of that, I didnt keep up with the developments.

I believe it should be legal for the same reason you stated: since no person is harmed in its production, it's good.

Also, I think it can be a useful tool with pedophiles: give them some of that and it might keep them away from small kids. Just a thought.

I cant believe something like Child Pornography can be defended by your first amendment! Freedom has limits people

If someone over here in the UK tried to say he could watch Child Porn due to having the Freedom to chose to do it, i would hit him so hard his head would spin around

I believe it should be legal for the same reason you stated: since no person is harmed in its production, it's good.

Also, I think it can be a useful tool with pedophiles: give them some of that and it might keep them away from small kids. Just a thought.

Another useful tool with Pedophiles would be a 12 Gauge Shotgun blast to the head. I have zero and i do mean NO sympathy for Pedophiles, if i was in charge they would all be lined up and shot.

Abusing a child is the 1 crime i view worse than any other, worse than rape, worse than murder, worse than Treason

If someone over here in the UK tried to say he could watch Child Porn due to having the Freedom to chose to do it, i would hit him so hard his head would spin around

Most people arent as violent as you.

Another useful tool with Pedophiles would be a 12 Gauge Shotgun blast to the head. I have zero and i do mean NO sympathy for Pedophiles, if i was in charge they would all be lined up and shot.

Abusing a child is the 1 crime i view worse than any other, worse than rape, worse than murder, worse than Treason

What about Japan? That's where the animated kiddy porn comes from and I hear it's very popular there.

What about Japan? That's where the animated kiddy porn comes from and I hear it's very popular there.

Does it hurt to READ the past few posts instead of just replying thinking your RIGHT, I went out of my way to post reasons and law information about it. Read and learn...

I think most arguments for such type of porn comes from one of two strands of thought; 1) No one is harmed directly by it, or 2) it acts as a safety valve for people with sexual disorders.

Lets not mince words, this kind of porn is for people who are attracted or aroused by it. Personally, I worry that such material would create an atmosphere of "permissiveness" towards such thoughts and behaviors, weakening the societal stigma against it. If ANY reliable correlation can be found between increased predation rates and this material, I would immediately back moves to ban it.

However, as some argue here, its possible that it has the opposite effect, allowing people to fantasize without seeking real-life forms of such material. It is a disturbing thing to think about, but I believe the only real way for a government to go about this is to study this issue closely before jumping to conclusions.

Its a difficult thing to address because it so easily falls into the "slippery slope" argument; if this kind of literary and artistic depiction of a crime is illegalized, what about other depicitions of crimes? Gansta Rap, Violent video games, sexual content in movies, etc. Where would it stop?

The smooth functioning of society should be aided by the government; so if allowing people with sexual problems a "safe and legal way" to deal with their issues we should allow it. If studies find that society is harmed (ie statistical increases in predation rates), this stuff should probably be removed of limited.

Most people arent as violent as you.

I am not a violent person, except when it involves certain issues, Pedophilia is evil in my opinion and definition of the term.

Japan.. i dont know enough about Japan to be the judge of their culture and ways, but i do not think just because its ok over there, it should be ok over here.

I think most arguments for such type of porn comes from one of two strands of thought; 1) No one is harmed directly by it, or 2) it acts as a safety valve for people with sexual disorders.

Lets not mince words, this kind of porn is for people who are attracted or aroused by it. Personally, I worry that such material would create an atmosphere of "permissiveness" towards such thoughts and behaviors, weakening the societal stigma against it. If ANY reliable correlation can be found between increased predation rates and this material, I would immediately back moves to ban it.

However, as some argue here, its possible that it has the opposite effect, allowing people to fantasize without seeking real-life forms of such material. It is a disturbing thing to think about, but I believe the only real way for a government to go about this is to study this issue closely before jumping to conclusions.

Its a difficult thing to address because it so easily falls into the "slippery slope" argument; if this kind of literary and artistic depiction of a crime is illegalized, what about other depicitions of crimes? Gansta Rap, Violent video games, sexual content in movies, etc. Where would it stop?

The smooth functioning of society should be aided by the government; so if allowing people with sexual problems a "safe and legal way" to deal with their issues we should allow it. If studies find that society is harmed (ie statistical increases in predation rates), this stuff should probably be removed of limited.

A very interesting comment indeed.

This is what occurs in Japan. It has the opposite effect and there are legal ways to 'release' excess energy for people with such problems, so children won't be hurt. (Why go out of your way and risk your career, honor and life to get a girl who's a year younger?) There are people who are professionals and sorta 'take care' of their needs for a fee.

Now as for the rap and other things, some of which I have data relating to, and some of it is pretty shocking, this thread is not the type of discussion for such matters.

"To each his own" that is simply the best way to say how this conflict will go. Some will be against it some will be for it. Though the fact that it has existed for so long and not created major problems does point in the direction of it being 'helpful'. No one ever said anything disturbing wasn't helpful.

As for general nudity (not porn), it is protected under the 1st ammendment and free speech. If you are allowed to write about detailed incest relationships of a overly sick nature, why not have a visual (but not real) format for it.

The only question would be for this is, what is pornography and what is art?

I cant believe something like Child Pornography can be defended by your first amendment! Freedom has limits people

If someone over here in the UK tried to say he could watch Child Porn due to having the Freedom to chose to do it, i would hit him so hard his head would spin around
we're not talking about child porn. that is rightfuly lllegal in most countries

we are talking about drawings of children engaged in some kind of sex act.

A very interesting comment indeed.

This is what occurs in Japan. It has the opposite effect and there are legal ways to 'release' excess energy for people with such problems, so children won't be hurt. (Why go out of your way and risk your career, honor and life to get a girl who's a year younger?) There are people who are professionals and sorta 'take care' of their needs for a fee.


Actually, everything I've heard out of Japan is that their statistical data on sex crimes is woefully inaccurate. This is due to the nature of the society, under-reporting crimes of this nature.

Japanese voyurism is at epidemic levels, but actual reports of voyurism aren't that high. The societal stigmas in this case work in favor of the predator. Many women just bear up and deal with it on their own, or ignore the problem.

Now, this is not to suggest that Japan has a huge Child rape problem, I know of no such issue. But Japan's sexual releases have not proven 100% effective.

we're not talking about child porn. that is rightfuly lllegal in most countries

we are talking about drawings of children engaged in some kind of sex act.

Actually REAL child nudity I just stumbled across on a nudist website....let me say Animated Porn (and since most of it is anime porn we can narrow it down to that)...Let me just say finding REAL child porn is ALOT easier then it seems. This site says that is it's porn and all, but that's like saying a bunch of naked children (all girls I might add) and calling it by another name is not porn.

Nudists...that is a strange thing to find a website...alot of children....I am not going to post pictures or anything, because it sickens me. Cause these are REAL and I found them by accident!

Heck, finding animated porn is harder then finding REAL porn I swear.

Now to my real topic...

Since the age varies so much about consent and all, wouldn't it be illegal in one country and legal in another for the simple age limit? Now who is to actually say someone is that age? Age verification wouldn't be possible if it wasn't reported or any facial or other information was displayed. This could mean your really looking at it or not. (As US law is, if you possess child porn, knowingly or otherwise, it is illegal and you can go to jail). So this is another unusual part of this weird law.

It should be legal, because if you're punishing people for making up stories like this, you're punishing them not for what they are doing, but for what they are thinking.

Actually, everything I've heard out of Japan is that their statistical data on sex crimes is woefully inaccurate. This is due to the nature of the society, under-reporting crimes of this nature.

Japanese voyurism is at epidemic levels, but actual reports of voyurism aren't that high. The societal stigmas in this case work in favor of the predator. Many women just bear up and deal with it on their own, or ignore the problem.

Now, this is not to suggest that Japan has a huge Child rape problem, I know of no such issue. But Japan's sexual releases have not proven 100% effective.

I know you will not respond to this afterwards, but...

The US also has alot of this. I know of many families here who have abused their children in these ways. Time and time again. I know of dozens of people I met who say they have been raped to because of it. Though they will not go to the police and report it. One of my closest friends had it happen to her when she was drunk and on the couch. Not to mention the level of exhibitionism and other acts you see everyday driving down the road. Guys and girls BOTH doing it. Sometimes sex in the car as they go down the highway, and with a WAY to young of a girl. Though since this is what I have only seen commonly, what goes on that I DON'T know about must be at least much worse!

Using unannounced estimates are not a good way to add evidence to an arguement, as the US has a surprisingly high unreported abuse also.

I know you will not respond to this afterwards, but...

Using unannounced estimates are not a good way to add evidence to an arguement, as the US has a surprisingly high unreported abuse also.

Why wouldn't I respond? I don't understand.

Anyway, my point is not that America DOESN'T have a high under-reported rate of sex crimes, but that Japan, which you have consitently touted in your arguments as a good example has some significant dirty laundry.

See what I'm going for? The US doesn't have a good way of dealing with the problem of sexual predation, but then again, neither does Japan. Its an ongoing and exceedingly difficult problem. Suggesting that Japan has somehow found a magic bullet for dealing with it is faulty.

Another useful tool with Pedophiles would be a 12 Gauge Shotgun blast to the head. I have zero and i do mean NO sympathy for Pedophiles, if i was in charge they would all be lined up and shot.

Abusing a child is the 1 crime i view worse than any other, worse than rape, worse than murder, worse than Treason

Careful - you're mixing up paedophiles and child molestors, and they're not actually the same thing. A paedophile is sexually attracted to children. A child molestor molests them (duh). Obviously, there's a significant overlap between these two sets, but they're not equal. It seems a little unfair to want to shoot someone for something they can't control (their sexual desires) so long as they choose not to act on those desires.

So, assuming we're talking about people who know right from wrong and choose not to hurt kids, what's actually wrong with them making things easier for themselves by looking at pictures/videos of fictional children? Sure, it's pretty damn disturbing, but no children are involved, and no one's getting hurt.

Niccolo Medici, your the first person to ever reply after I try to shoot down an arguement with personal experience. o.O Grats.

Japan has the perfect example, no. What you seem to forget is that some of these 'schoolgirls' that people pay will often go to the police only when they are discovered. There is a large amount of corruption between the younger generation of Japan. Not to mention the crime organizations and lure of quick money if you need some.

Sometimes this happens in the US also. Where age protects young girls from the horrible mistakes they made. Though not as widespread as in Japan, it is definately an issue for both countries.

Japan DOES need to have more police though cause the trains are notorious for the kind of 'panty shots' and molesting that is unique to the crowded cities. Even innocent mistakes can be taken as molesting on the trains. Though I don't know exactly on how to react to it as major problem as you mentioned or a lesser one that obviously needs to be fixed.

Niccolo Medici, your the first person to ever reply after I try to shoot down an arguement with personal experience. o.O Grats.

Japan has the perfect example, no. What you seem to forget is that some of these 'schoolgirls' that people pay will often go to the police only when they are discovered. There is a large amount of corruption between the younger generation of Japan. Not to mention the crime organizations and lure of quick money if you need some.

Sometimes this happens in the US also. Where age protects young girls from the horrible mistakes they made. Though not as widespread as in Japan, it is definately an issue for both countries.

Japan DOES need to have more police though cause the trains are notorious for the kind of 'panty shots' and molesting that is unique to the crowded cities. Even innocent mistakes can be taken as molesting on the trains. Though I don't know exactly on how to react to it as major problem as you mentioned or a lesser one that obviously needs to be fixed.

Well, that's mostly because your personal experience had little to do with MY arguments ;) I had no intention of "defending" America's policies, or indeed, anyone's policies. My intention was to poke a hole in the "Japan does it, and they're okay" theory.

But yeah, its certainly worth looking into. Both the government and as society as a whole. Just how much of an impact do "safety valves" like these have? I can't say for certain, more studies need to be done in all nations.

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.
Ah, the animated violence causes mass killing sprees line of reasoning.

Well, that's mostly because your personal experience had little to do with MY arguments ;) I had no intention of "defending" America's policies, or indeed, anyone's policies. My intention was to poke a hole in the "Japan does it, and they're okay" theory.

But yeah, its certainly worth looking into. Both the government and as society as a whole. Just how much of an impact do "safety valves" like these have? I can't say for certain, more studies need to be done in all nations.

Very true. I'd like to point out very DISGUSTING and sick hentai exist. Lolita and Shounen are barely the real stuff of problems. (Shounenai I <3! Its WAY cute!) Though some things make me wanna puke, namely the girl-in-a-box thing. This should be really watched. It is purely sick murder and abuse. Necrophila taken to a new level. Though these exist more as a picture format...

Pictures themselves would ultimately be next if animation was wrong. I think this would be a little stretching it as Japan has major business with mangas. (Anime isn't cartoons btw. If you want to argue that prepare to meet an otaku with 12 years of fandom behind me!) Though banning it would be like making it a thought crime and would have a backlash against freedoms. Though I could entirely live with decent pictures and not movies, or something older, doesn't matter THAT much.

(Anime isn't cartoons btw. If you want to argue that prepare to meet an otaku with 12 years of fandom behind me!)
Yes it is.

Animated Cartoon (n.)

A motion picture or television film consisting of a photographed series of drawings, objects, or computer graphics that simulates motion by recording very slight, continuous changes in the images, frame by frame.

I voted other because I think we're running out of thread ideas.

(Anime isn't cartoons btw. If you want to argue that prepare to meet an otaku with 12 years of fandom behind me!)Saying that Anime isn't a cartoon is like saying a French movie isn't a movie because it's French.

Saying that Anime isn't a cartoon is like saying a French movie isn't a movie because it's French.

Calling Anime cartoons is like calling Beethoven's masterpieces pop music.

Very true. I'd like to point out very DISGUSTING and sick hentai exist. Lolita and Shounen are barely the real stuff of problems. (Shounenai I <3! Its WAY cute!) Though some things make me wanna puke, namely the girl-in-a-box thing. This should be really watched. It is purely sick murder and abuse. Necrophila taken to a new level. Though these exist more as a picture format...

Pictures themselves would ultimately be next if animation was wrong. I think this would be a little stretching it as Japan has major business with mangas. (Anime isn't cartoons btw. If you want to argue that prepare to meet an otaku with 12 years of fandom behind me!) Though banning it would be like making it a thought crime and would have a backlash against freedoms. Though I could entirely live with decent pictures and not movies, or something older, doesn't matter THAT much.

Yes, I could hear the otaku in your voice, which is quite a trick on a computer. Its even possible you could out-geek me (though, as I have proven on this board before, it is no easy task).

This is why I constructed my arguments the way I did. A lot of the stuff that Japan's artists have produced is fundementally indefensable. Some of the more...creative...works that come out would be better classified as manifestos for crimes against human sexuality.

But the point is not that the content is reprehensible, but that it MAY or may NOT serve a useful function for society. I suggest that a government should avoid destroying methods of expression unless they can find a tracable statistical correlation between art and action.

To do otherwise would create a difficult situation for all artists and writers, where their art would have vaguely defined rules to follow, even in the world of fiction and fantasy.

I think a possible example would be Tom Clancy novels, belive it or not. Now I haven't read many of them, but I understand one book features a jumbo jet being flown into congress as part of a terrorist plot. Now, after the September 11th attacks, that book recieved a lot of attention.

Should that book be banned because of its content? What about books that feature murders, serial or otherwise? Every Agatha Christie book would be off the shelves.

This is the slippery slope argument I hesitate to use, but feel it is needed in this case. Freedom of expression needs to be very broad or we run the risk of legislating ourselves into silence.

I only can wonder WHY such works are so widely available in Japan, but I have long wondered about Japanese sexuality in general.

Calling Anime cartoons is like calling Beethoven's masterpieces pop music.
Saying that Anime isn't cartoons is like calling Teen Titans anime.

Calling Anime cartoons is like calling Beethoven's masterpieces pop music.

No, its more like calling Beethoven's masterpieces music (which is actually an accurate statement). Cartoon is a broad category that includes any form of animated art. Anime is a subclassification of cartoon. Beethoven doesnt stop being music just because it can be further classified into classical music. Anime does not stop being a cartoon because it can be further classified into Anime.

Calling Anime cartoons is like calling Beethoven's masterpieces pop music.

You're suggesting that Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-gi-oh!, and the like are the modern day equivilent of Beethoven?

Ouch. My soul.

Seriously guys, anime is just another industry. SOME of it is amazing, some of it crosses genres and unities philosophy and artistry into a blend of creative energy that sparks the soul...but some of it is purely made to get kids to buy 7 dollar plastic toys and game cards.

And for every amazing show that defies all logic and rises to masterpiece status, there are 10, no 100 shows that are hacked off some artist's sketch dump and thrown to the public for consumption.

Those of us who watch either watch EVERYTHING that comes out of Japan because its somehow "better" just because its anime, or we understand that we must retain our skeptisicm and perhaps rethink our prioties before we go watch the 50,000th "Giant Robot runs around in Tokyo" anime.

It's sick, but nobody was harmed in the process

You're suggesting that Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-gi-oh!, and the like are the modern day equivilent of Beethoven?

Ouch. My soul.

Seriously guys, anime is just another industry. SOME of it is amazing, some of it crosses genres and unities philosophy and artistry into a blend of creative energy that sparks the soul...but some of it is purely made to get kids to buy 7 dollar plastic toys and game cards.

And for every amazing show that defies all logic and rises to masterpiece status, there are 10, no 100 shows that are hacked off some artist's sketch dump and thrown to the public for consumption.

Those of us who watch either watch EVERYTHING that comes out of Japan because its somehow "better" just because its anime, or we understand that we must retain our skeptisicm and perhaps rethink our prioties before we go watch the 50,000th "Giant Robot runs around in Tokyo" anime.

Good point. It would be more accurate to say that calling Neon Genesis Evangelion a cartoon is like calling the masterpieces of Beethoven pop music.

Simply put, no. The world's fucked-up enough as it is, we don't need to help it along!

It's pretty sick (especially the 5 year olds to the 11 year olds)

But how are you supposed to tell how "old" the animation is? Hmm?

Well it is pretty obvious, but you make a good point, in that 'artists' can claim it merely refers to people being 'young at heart but not in body' and there are lots of excuses that can be used for it.

I believe it is is sick and vulgar, however it should not be another distraction for an already over-worked police force. Hence it should stay legal.

Comment brought up in another thread spawned this
Should ANIMATED porn that depicts underage people be legal?
I think we need links to examples before we can judge. [/bad_joke]

To be serious, I can't see why it should be illegal.

I voted other because I think we're running out of thread ideas.
Saying that Anime isn't a cartoon is like saying a French movie isn't a movie because it's French.

Now you've done it. :)

Anime is a long-stemmed art form of Japan. Founded on Gigantor and Astroboy the series was a linear storyline. Episodes had a clear and flowing set up. Such examples can be found in almost all series or OVA. FLCL, a coming of age story set in Mabase, a very weird story with good morals and values. Cowboy Bebop, a philosophical show dealing with outcasts of life. Great Teacher Onizuka, applying himself as a teacher he seeks fame and glory, but often stops and risks it all to teach good values to high school students. Gunslinger Girl, the story of government corruption and the innocence of a child torn between themselves. Trigun, on the search for his brother who hates humanity and all it has.

Anime has stories within stories and is extremely complex. The character Vash the Stampede is a crazy, carefree fool at first glance. Though under his carefree image leads the life of a troubled man. Sworn never to kill he will accept his idealist views even if he has to die. The story is very complex as his brother sends trials and assassins to flush Vash out of hiding. Towards the end of the series, Vash's past catches up with him, all the pain and suffering begins to overwhelm him until he must hunt down his brother to save people's lives. A man named Legato is the biggest challenge to his idealism. Torn between killing Legato or having his two only friends murdered infront of him, Vash has to make a decision. Whatever happens will cause the loss of a life. He chooses to shoot Legato, thus becoming everything he's ever hated, and forced to except his duel purpose in life.

A very strong philosophy defines each character and its best summed up with, "Kill the Spiders to save the Butterflies...but by killing the Spiders you become a Spider yourself." This is the realistic view of Knives (Vash's Brother). Vash believes that he can save both of them, he refuses to accept his childish idealism and hope as a wasted dream. Vash has to learn that idealistic believes cannot always exist.

These deep philosophical, moral questions define anime for what it is. Under a veil of humor and carefree emotion lives a secret person. A person under the mask that people hide from the world. Anime goes to this level, a psychological level to define characters and their reasons behind things.

Cartoons are notoriously simple minded. We rarely ever hear the thoughts, concerns or beliefs of a character unless it is important for the immediate plotline. In Snow White, the witch was simply jealous and wanted to be beautiful. Anime would give a detailed background about how a person becomes bitter and cold, and gives a true-sense into the inner-workings of a person. An example would be Knives, he wanted to create a new Eden for him and his brother, he did not want to be with the weak humans who fight for food and water. The greed, corruption and sickness humanity carries. He believed humanity was a disease, having destroyed one planet they move to another to begin the destruction again, like a plague, a virus that endangers everything it touchs. Knives view IS correct surprisingly! There is a big backstory about the psychological developement of Knives his outlook on the human race. Stemming from physical differences and jealousy and fear he was warped into a cruel being from the treatment of himself and how humans treat others. Vash stayed pure, shielded more then his brother from it by Rem, he grew up with her idealism and sense of justice. "No one has the right to take another's life" which became Vash's defining theme. Even the clothes he wears are symbolic of this vow. Red, the color of roses, he follows what Rem said was the meaning of the flower and what they symbolized. Knives notes how useless they are, a waste of space.

These conflicting psychological, philosophical, symbolic views of the two are clearly what anime is all about! Who people are, not what they are, defines anime and its characters and stories. Usually with a moral and lesson to teach it is a beautiful artform.

On the cartoon side...we have Homer Simpson! A fat, lazy, bald, overweight man, who is too stupid to express real emotions it seems. Though all the characters in the Simpsons are like that! We never see how they tick, what are their dreams, what defines there lives and the values behind it. We watch them from a 3rd person view always, never interacting with them themselves.

Family guy is also like this, we never see their thoughts and decisions! Also the show ALWAYS ends the same way as it began. Nothing has changed. Which is usually boring and leads no where. Anime has a cause and effect storyline which pushes through to the end. At the end of Trigun, Vash beats his brother, though at first glance it looks like he killed him. He bandages his brother up and takes him away. Leaving behind his red overcoat. Taken up his idealism again, but holding the memories he hopes to give his brother what he has missed and change him.

(All we actually see is Vash leaves his jacket and carries Knives off on his shoulder, but if you watched the series you can tell it will end with him attempting to change his brother to love and to live peacefully)

This essessence defines anime and which clearly seperates it from simple cartoons that deal with characters on a impersonal level.

Now you've done it. :)

Anime is a long-stemmed art form of Japan. Founded on Gigantor and Astroboy the series was a linear storyline. Episodes had a clear and flowing set up. Such examples can be found in almost all series or OVA. FLCL, a coming of age story set in Mabase, a very weird story with good morals and values. Cowboy Bebop, a philosophical show dealing with outcasts of life. Great Teacher Onizuka, applying himself as a teacher he seeks fame and glory, but often stops and risks it all to teach good values to high school students. Gunslinger Girl, the story of government corruption and the innocence of a child torn between themselves. Trigun, on the search for his brother who hates humanity and all it has.

Anime has stories within stories and is extremely complex. The character Vash the Stampede is a crazy, carefree fool at first glance. Though under his carefree image leads the life of a troubled man. Sworn never to kill he will accept his idealist views even if he has to die. The story is very complex as his brother sends trials and assassins to flush Vash out of hiding. Towards the end of the series, Vash's past catches up with him, all the pain and suffering begins to overwhelm him until he must hunt down his brother to save people's lives. A man named Legato is the biggest challenge to his idealism. Torn between killing Legato or having his two only friends murdered infront of him, Vash has to make a decision. Whatever happens will cause the loss of a life. He chooses to shoot Legato, thus becoming everything he's ever hated, and forced to except his duel purpose in life.

A very strong philosophy defines each character and its best summed up with, "Kill the Spiders to save the Butterflies...but by killing the Spiders you become a Spider yourself." This is the realistic view of Knives (Vash's Brother). Vash believes that he can save both of them, he refuses to accept his childish idealism and hope as a wasted dream. Vash has to learn that idealistic believes cannot always exist.

These deep philosophical, moral questions define anime for what it is. Under a veil of humor and carefree emotion lives a secret person. A person under the mask that people hide from the world. Anime goes to this level, a psychological level to define characters and their reasons behind things.

Cartoons are notoriously simple minded. We rarely ever hear the thoughts, concerns or beliefs of a character unless it is important for the immediate plotline. In Snow White, the witch was simply jealous and wanted to be beautiful. Anime would give a detailed background about how a person becomes bitter and cold, and gives a true-sense into the inner-workings of a person. An example would be Knives, he wanted to create a new Eden for him and his brother, he did not want to be with the weak humans who fight for food and water. The greed, corruption and sickness humanity carries. He believed humanity was a disease, having destroyed one planet they move to another to begin the destruction again, like a plague, a virus that endangers everything it touchs. Knives view IS correct surprisingly! There is a big backstory about the psychological developement of Knives his outlook on the human race. Stemming from physical differences and jealousy and fear he was warped into a cruel being from the treatment of himself and how humans treat others. Vash stayed pure, shielded more then his brother from it by Rem, he grew up with her idealism and sense of justice. "No one has the right to take another's life" which became Vash's defining theme. Even the clothes he wears are symbolic of this vow. Red, the color of roses, he follows what Rem said was the meaning of the flower and what they symbolized. Knives notes how useless they are, a waste of space.

These conflicting psychological, philosophical, symbolic views of the two are clearly what anime is all about! Who people are, not what they are, defines anime and its characters and stories. Usually with a moral and lesson to teach it is a beautiful artform.

On the cartoon side...we have Homer Simpson! A fat, lazy, bald, overweight man, who is too stupid to express real emotions it seems. Though all the characters in the Simpsons are like that! We never see how they tick, what are their dreams, what defines there lives and the values behind it. We watch them from a 3rd person view always, never interacting with them themselves.

Family guy is also like this, we never see their thoughts and decisions! Also the show ALWAYS ends the same way as it began. Nothing has changed. Which is usually boring and leads no where. Anime has a cause and effect storyline which pushes through to the end. At the end of Trigun, Vash beats his brother, though at first glance it looks like he killed him. He bandages his brother up and takes him away. Leaving behind his red overcoat. Taken up his idealism again, but holding the memories he hopes to give his brother what he has missed and change him.

(All we actually see is Vash leaves his jacket and carries Knives off on his shoulder, but if you watched the series you can tell it will end with him attempting to change his brother to love and to live peacefully)

This essessence defines anime and which clearly seperates it from simple cartoons that deal with characters on a impersonal level.
So, the Japanese take cartoons more seriously than Americans.

Would you can call Love Hina an Anime? Because your definition of anime excludes Love Hina, and the like.

I think we need links to examples before we can judge. [/bad_joke]

Yes, we do, for judging reasons, yep.

Anime is a long-stemmed art form of Japan. Founded on Gigantor and Astroboy the series was a linear storyline. Episodes had a clear and flowing set up. Such examples can be found in almost all series or OVA. FLCL, a coming of age story set in Mabase, a very weird story with good morals and values. Cowboy Bebop, a philosophical show dealing with outcasts of life. Great Teacher Onizuka, applying himself as a teacher he seeks fame and glory, but often stops and risks it all to teach good values to high school students. Gunslinger Girl, the story of government corruption and the innocence of a child torn between themselves. Trigun, on the search for his brother who hates humanity and all it has.

Indeed, well said. It's no wonder we leftists seek the power to create our own manga and anime so much. And yes, Trigun is an awesome series, one of my alltime favorite shows.

You're suggesting that Pokemon, Digimon, Yu-gi-oh!, and the like are the modern day equivilent of Beethoven?

Ouch. My soul.

In the infamous words: "My heart....it aches!"

If someone refers to Neon Genesis Evangelion's Rei as a pornographic character I'd personally want to DESTROY you.

Rei is symbolic of everything society want humanity to be! Rei has no emotions, no desires, she's a pawn and replacable. Her 'soul' is weak. She is nothing more then a doll.

However Rei is ALOT more complex then this surface image. She's a cross between an angel and a human (Yui, Shinji's mother). Shinji and Rei have a very unusual relationship. Once it was Gendo (Shinji's father), that was the only one able to speak to Rei and have her smile. For insulting Gendo, Rei slapped Shinji for it. Though by the end of the series, Rei's final words are that she wants to become one with Shinji (this may be wrong cause I had a bad fansub, but the message was clear she wanted to be with Shinji). Rei was Shinji's mother! Rei died to protect Shinji, an example of a mother's love which is one of the most powerful forces in literature and anime. (Harry Potter was also protected by his parents.)

The story is so complex and amazing that it is still a masterpiece and set a new level for anime. Even after so many years it is still loved by so many fans, and Newtype held Rei and Asuka as fan favorites for YEARS.

Now btw I found this link: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=6976 in which all you lucky fans can see the English version of it. Shinji sounds less of a wimp, but its still free. NGE on AS! WHEEEEEEEE!

Let me get this off my otaku-chest. :)

Like Love Hina's Shinobu and Keitaro, which never happens. No sex actually takes place in the series, but lots of comedy does, and its supposed to be funny. (Actually a girls series, btw)
I've never heard of Love Hina's manga or anime referred to as a shoujo (girl's anime). Seriously, what girl would like living with five other women in a small apartment building with an incredibly klutzy, dim, shy man of a manager? And what girl would enjoy seeing other half-naked girls of varying ages? It's a shounen (boy's anime), through and through.

But I digress; I'm a fan of Love Hina, so I felt compelled to clear that up! :)

If a government begins to ban cartoons featuring "under-age" characters in sexual situations, then they are honestly bordering on legislating thought-crime. Besides, the creators of the animation in question can just change the age mentioned in it. For example, if a Japanese animator originally made a character 15-years-old and ran into trouble with an American publisher because of underage characters engaged in sex, they would just edit the age to 18.

But does that change the fact that the character still looks, acts, and sounds as if they are 15? No. So what's the point? The crime is still there. It's like having a girlfriend on the verge of coming on her age of consent: you wait and wait and wait for that day she turns 18 (or whatever the local age of consent is), and then and only then is she legal to have sex with someone older than her, like a magical switch has been flipped. Do you honestly think that her state of mind on sex changed because she became an adult in the state's eyes?

So, the Japanese take cartoons more seriously than Americans.

Would you can call Love Hina an Anime? Because your definition of anime excludes Love Hina, and the like.

Love Hina is certianly an anime. Though this type fits under Shoujo. The anime deals with Keitaro's confusion and loss of direction in life. He is given into the harsh reality of life which originally seems like a wonderful job! He is abused, beaten and scolded, but never quits, he has no where left to go.

Keitaro is a below-average student, but through pursueing studies and self-searching he becomes a man! He arrives at the Hinata house as a weakling, but by the end he becomes a true man, he has a respectable job, he's in college, he's married and is an archelogist. Though his life lessons were brutal it was a beautiful change!

Though it was fan-service loaded it was kinda typical to an all girls dorm. Trust me girls do like to compare who's bust is bigger...in Japan to, (A cup AHAHAHAHA!). Though Keitaro is beaten and bruised he is whipped into shape and becomes a man. If you remember he originally cared only for himself, a selfish wimp with dreams, but no where and no motivation to get there. By the end he is head over heels with Naru, he lives to think about her. Naru, annoyed by the male perverted side and his incredible weakness can't stand the thought of being with him. Naru wants a strong and noble man. Keitaro becomes this man, through growing up and learning about life. That is why it ends in marriage, though the marriage isn't obviously as easy or dreamlike as Keitaro wanted it to be!

Indeed, well said. It's no wonder we leftists seek the power to create our own manga and anime so much. And yes, Trigun is an awesome series, one of my alltime favorite shows.

In a very strange aside note, a tad personal one...

Letila you and I had sparred verbally on the nature and effectiveness of pascifism in a couple of threads many months ago (years?). About 3 days later I watched Trigun for the first time (I borrowed a friend's box set and watched it over a 2 day period).

After watching the series in its entirety, I found a new understanding and appreciation of your goals and sentiments in the subject. I came away from Trigun with a newfound respect for you and your ideals. I literally saw the world differently because of a story in a cartoon.

THAT'S what I'm talking about, some anime raises beyond the normal and plain. Not all of it does, and sometimes the brilliant message is obscured by the rampant commercialism.

It goes to this; South park is ugly as hell visually, but it raises some good points! Anime, pretty, ugly, commercial or artistic, it is capable of tremendous storytelling and moral signifigance. The quesiton is, are we capable and ready for the message each tries to send us? Can we empathise with the characters?

Some people don't like anime, because the asthetics get in the way of the message: Reign, an anime about Alexander the great was the ugliest thing I have ever seen in cartoon form. It was UGLY. Hedious! The characters didn't look human, they looked like twisted remnants of humans. I couldn't watch more than an episode or two, even thought the story of Alexander is compelling, I couldn't get past the asthetics.

Now why didn't you just come to me and ask me this in the first place?

Because no children are being exploited the United States Supreme Court decided that animated pornography depicting what appears to be children is legal. Now I say appears to be children because in many cases you just cant tell. Mostly they appear as middle to late teenage girls and most companies that produce the adult material just try to pass them off as being of legal age, even though their appearance may say otherwise.

But like I said earlier, since nobody is being exploited then their is no grounds to make it illegal. I myself contain a two or three hentai games containing girls of questionable age and only one of which actually depicts the girls age. In fact the depiction of age in most hentai is something that's rare, unless the girl is reminding you of her impending birthday.

Now however there are some cases where it is blatantly obvious that the characters are under age. What's even worse is then the animators try to give them huge knockers. What's even worse is when they give a male character huge knockers. What's even worse is when the give a female character a Johnson. What's even worse is when they make an underage female character, give her huge knockers, and a huge Johnson.

I know I pride myself on being a pervert, but there are many people out there who are much sicker than me. But so long as they leave real children out of it...

Let me get this off my otaku-chest. :)


I've never heard of Love Hina's manga or anime referred to as a shoujo (girl's anime). Seriously, what girl would like living with five other women in a small apartment building with an incredibly klutzy, dim, shy man of a manager? And what girl would enjoy seeing other half-naked girls of varying ages? It's a shounen (boy's anime), through and through.

But I digress; I'm a fan of Love Hina, so I felt compelled to clear that up! :)


About that, I hear its both, though the storyline for the developement of the girls also exists and its just plain funny to see girls kick the shit out of a weak man. Well...if you can call him a man. The girls are usually seen half naked in the hot springs, outdoors, with towels for when they get out, but still its innocent and carefree, but they have to learn with a guy around to not be so open and to grow up themselves. So ya, its a boy and girl anime. Different themes attract them. But Fushigi Yuugi is a girl's anime....even though it deals with a bunch of homosexuals and a crossdresser and is set in anicent china with boyish theme. *shudder* Cross-dresser scary.....glad he died.

As I'm fond of saying, 'As animation, Anime makes for a good series of still images'.

In other words, yes there's some lovely art there, but why does it always have to look like it's running at fifteen or even twelve frames per second?

And uh, yeah. It's not episodic. Uh-huh. Got it.

Doesn't make it good.

For that matter, the sheer bulk of all animation on offer at any given time is rife with crap, regardless of its' country of origin.

But for my money, Anime ranks high on the lame-o-meter. Primarily due to most of it appearing to forego the whole 24 or *gasp* even 29.97 FPS dealie.
That, and those horrendously huge wet eyes some of the characters have. Like a painting of a sad puppy on black velvet.

*Heaves uncontrollably*

After watching the series in its entirety, I found a new understanding and appreciation of your goals and sentiments in the subject. I came away from Trigun with a newfound respect for you and your ideals. I literally saw the world differently because of a story in a cartoon. .

Oh my god...I marathoned this in two days also. It DID change my whole life. I saw EVERYTHING with duel-meanings and a whole new philosophy. It confused the hell out of my class, teachers and parents, but at least I got a C. The class freaked out and called me an idiot when I submitted 100 note card refrences to my 10 page paper on philosophy in Trigun.

Yes, I used Eden also. I did one for Neon Genesis Evangelion....my teacher kept saying ''Uh huh"...."Uh Huh.."..."Umm....huh...ya..." over and over again like a demented monkey. It was pathetic and asked if I needed to bring in the copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, a few excerpts from the Bible and the Hebrew books. I printed out like 150-200 pages and submitted them......he never even READ it! I had 40 sources to! Oh well...labor of love you can say.

Trigun really did define a turning point in my life, along with NGE to. Even FLCL changed my whole perspective.

Letila you and I had sparred verbally on the nature and effectiveness of pascifism in a couple of threads many months ago (years?). About 3 days later I watched Trigun for the first time (I borrowed a friend's box set and watched it over a 2 day period).

After watching the series in its entirety, I found a new understanding and appreciation of your goals and sentiments in the subject. I came away from Trigun with a newfound respect for you and your ideals. I literally saw the world differently because of a story in a cartoon.

Well, I'm glad to hear that.

Some people don't like anime, because the asthetics get in the way of the message: Reign, an anime about Alexander the great was the ugliest thing I have ever seen in cartoon form. It was UGLY. Hedious! The characters didn't look human, they looked like twisted remnants of humans. I couldn't watch more than an episode or two, even thought the story of Alexander is compelling, I couldn't get past the asthetics.

I've never seen that one, but that is the main thing I've heard about it, that the artwork was grotesquely ugly.

-snip!- *Heaves uncontrollably*

See? Asthetic block.

Dobbsworld here has difficulty with the asthetics of anime, preventing enjoyment of the entire genre.

For example, I love Kurosawa movies, except for the "love scenes" in them; why? Because they are frequently nearly portrayed as rape, and are always highly violent. I'm not into that. But Japan as a whole is...BIG TIME.

Look at Love Hina, its violence is female on male, but how different is that from Ran? In Ran the princess violently disarms her husband's killer, mocking him for his lack of manliness and weakness, and then mounts him off camera? Its the same idea. Same concept. Same violence. Yet one is a classic movie that is revered, one is a classic anime.

I have an asthetic block with Japanese portrayals of sex. They are highly distrubing to me. But at the same time I own Ran and Love Hina! They challange me as a viewer. Its intellectual stimulation. Both are fun to watch to me.

As I'm fond of saying, 'As animation, Anime makes for a good series of still images'.

In other words, yes there's some lovely art there, but why does it always have to look like it's running at fifteen or even twelve frames per second?

And uh, yeah. It's not episodic. Uh-huh. Got it.

Doesn't make it good.

For that matter, the sheer bulk of all animation on offer at any given time is rife with crap, regardless of its' country of origin.

But for my money, Anime ranks high on the lame-o-meter. Primarily due to most of it appearing to forego the whole 24 or *gasp* even 29.97 FPS dealie.
That, and those horrendously huge wet eyes some of the characters have. Like a painting of a sad puppy on black velvet.

*Heaves uncontrollably*

Oh my god....NOW my soul hurts.

Anime is usually at 25 fps from what I see it as. South Park is like 12 lmao. Though I say "Bravo" for their original materials to produce it. Anime's such as Ghost in the Shell are also filled with eye-candy and beautiful art, the world is grey, you don't learn or know everything, but as it progresses things can light up like little bulbs in the dark to understand things.

Though people who make anime are very tied to the work and treat it as a true masterpiece. From the beautiful youthful and older (can't forget the journey into becoming old with Miyazaki's recent work, Howl's moving castle. ^-^) journeys into life. While some are incrediblely dark like Satoshi Kon's, Deep Blue, a actresses life changes after a rape scene in her movie and she becomes insane. (scary!)

"If you want to annoy Satoshi Kon, ask him why he makes cartoons. Suggest that instead of toiling away in his smoky studio drawing mundane Tokyo street scenes, he might be better off investing in a movie camera and just filming the city in all its quotidian banality. Kon's response will start before you finish your sentence. His eyes will narrow, his lips will curl into a sneer, and with a quiet menace he'll recite the line that has become his mantra through countless interviews and film-festival question-and-answer sessions: "I'm an animé director. I don't do anything else. People can take it or leave it."" (full article at: http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501031201-549074,00.html )

Paranoia Agent is also a very good anime done by Kon-sama. Anime is not jumpy animation or poor graphics now. Even the older Robotech series was nicely done for the times.

While the poor quality of the animation does depreciate the genre for me, there are things of Japanese origin that I absolutely adore.

You see, I am fairly obsessed with collecting Microman figures. Some of these were manufactured for North American consumption as 'Micronaut' figures, capitalizing on the mid-late 70s sci-fi craze.

But I discovered five or six years ago that Takara, the original Japanese toy company that created Microman toys (apparently as either a spinoff from, or a companion to, an Anime series of the time).

I had no real interest in any sort of backstory, I was fascinated by the fine articulation, the talented sculpting and design, and the peculiar conceit of chrome-plating the heads of the figures.

To my surprise and delight, Takara had manufactured many lines of Microman over the years, and was celebrating their history by re-releasing the more popular (and collectible) lines of figures. To my complete surprise, they began creating whole new lines just in the last year, with still more points of articulation - and yet they've still retained the chrome-plating on the heads.

Here's a very, very thorough website related to all things Microman - Microman, Henshin Cyborg, Micronauts, I Micronauti, Magnemo-8, Transformers (yes, Transformers! Where do you think they got the chrome-plate heads from?), and more:

http://www.microforever.com/

(mind the hideous front page, Paul usually puts up A-1 photos of his own Micros, but apparently someone's been trying to offload this ugly painting...)

Oh and of course I like Pocky.

Mmm, Pocky!

Mmmm Pocky! Otaku food!

I've seen people holding up signs, "Will yaoi for Pocky" and "Hugs for Pocky". I love Pocky and always feed my favorite fangirls some Pocky! Now fanboys on the other hand, they have to be good little nekoshounen or they get NOTHING! AHAHAHAH!

I wonder if there are any "Will yuri for fanboys" girls at next years convention in Boston. This year had ALOT of hentai, doujinshi and mangas. An I guess that nudity is allowed in anime even in the presense of children, the officer had no idea when the kids seen an evil psycho girl in the hot springs nearly drowning her poor slave. It was very weird. Like something from Washu in Tenchi.

Paranoia Agent is also a very good anime done by Kon-sama. Anime is not jumpy animation or poor graphics now. Even the older Robotech series was nicely done for the times.

See, this is what my friends keep on at me about - "Yeah, the older anime, well, the animation sucked, it's true but - (predictable launchpoint into lauding the stories, the characters, the art direction, dialogue, etc.) - and anyway, it looks a lot better these days... I know what you mean about the animation, but I just can't believe you'd let something like that - (predictable second launchpoint lauding all the aforementioned, and really, uncontested, qualities of Anime) - ...so let's take a look, shall we?

*slips in DVD*

And you know? The awful frickin' truth? It's beautiful. It looks great. Even the English overdubs seem not appalingly unlistenable.

But it STILL looks like FIFTEEN or FEWER frames per second. And I can't bear it. It feels like I'm going to go into an epileptic fit (and I may be any number of weird things, but I'm not an epileptic, ok?) - As/the/peo/ple/move/like/ro/bots/while/they/walk/and/talk.

Don't get me wrong, there's elements to the genre that are marvelous, laudable, and praiseworthy; But I've let myself be led to the water too many times with the promise of freshness only to find the offering stale.

Sorry to bruise anyone's soul.

See, this is what my friends keep on at me about - "Yeah, the older anime, well, the animation sucked, it's true but - (predictable launchpoint into lauding the stories, the characters, the art direction, dialogue, etc.) - and anyway, it looks a lot better these days... I know what you mean about the animation, but I just can't believe you'd let something like that - (predictable second launchpoint lauding all the aforementioned, and really, uncontested, qualities of Anime) - ...so let's take a look, shall we?

*slips in DVD*

And you know? The awful frickin' truth? It's beautiful. It looks great. Even the English overdubs seem not appalingly unlistenable.

But it STILL looks like FIFTEEN or FEWER frames per second. And I can't bear it. It feels like I'm going to go into an epileptic fit (and I may be any number of weird things, but I'm not an epileptic, ok?) - As/the/peo/ple/move/like/ro/bots/while/they/walk/and/talk.

Don't get me wrong, there's elements to the genre that are marvelous, laudable, and praiseworthy; But I've let myself be led to the water too many times with the promise of freshness only to find the offering stale.

Sorry to bruise anyone's soul.


Well I would definately recommend Paranoia Agent (once the loop begins), FLCL (every 6 weeks) and Samurai Champloo. All of these are free and on Cartoon Network. FLCL has lots of quirks that only manga and anime fans will get though. It may seem not at all funny to you or the episodic theme (which follows a childhood to teenager to adult theme). IF you watch Lupin the 3rd, very very old, ya you will get stuck with the cartoony storyline and poor graphics. Remember this though, some of the awkward movements are completely meant, most easy seen is the chibi's. The large eyes also convey emotions comically which a face cannot clearly do at the typical scale. Anime is getting better and becoming more diverse, but you need to get back into the water. Find a genre you liked or look for a new one.

Well I would definately recommend Paranoia Agent (once the loop begins)Yeah, jumping into Paranoia Agent midway would be like jumping in front of a train. Haha! I made an insider joke!
That last episode was trippy man. I'm pretty sure I understand it, though I could be wrong.

Yeah, jumping into Paranoia Agent midway would be like jumping in front of a train. Haha! I made an insider joke!
That last episode was trippy man. I'm pretty sure I understand it, though I could be wrong.

That last episode was way too weird, I decided to go to bed instead of watching it all the way through.

Why dont you start an anime thread to discuss your anime stuff? this thread is about animated porn featuring models that appear to be underage.

Why dont you start an anime thread to discuss your anime stuff? this thread is about animated porn featuring models that appear to be underage.
Thank you

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.

Which we should.

It's a cartoon. It doesn't hurt anybody. Sure, don't show the cartoon to the kiddies, but we don't show porn to kids anyway! Though most people think it's incredibly gross and screwed up, it's no reason to censor something. And if someone does get off to that, it's way better for them to work it out that way than by getting off with a real kid.

The point of having restrictions on pornography is to protect people. It's a cartoon. It doesn't hurt anyone, bottom line. Just because it's disgusting, doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. I think dead fish are disgusting, but nobody who eats fish is going to stop because of that.

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.

Yes. We should only watch good wholesome cartoons that are legally sanctioned and have positive, empowering messages. You should watch the Urotsukidoji series. I think you'd like them, what with them being legal and all, there's clearly nothing bad in them. :rolleyes:

Which we should.

It's a cartoon. It doesn't hurt anybody. Sure, don't show the cartoon to the kiddies, but we don't show porn to kids anyway! Though most people think it's incredibly gross and screwed up, it's no reason to censor something. And if someone does get off to that, it's way better for them to work it out that way than by getting off with a real kid.

The point of having restrictions on pornography is to protect people. It's a cartoon. It doesn't hurt anyone, bottom line. Just because it's disgusting, doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. I think dead fish are disgusting, but nobody who eats fish is going to stop because of that.

And even if child molesters are the only people who want to buy it, well, then that's a clue, isn't it? Would you rather they were forced to be really good at hiding it?

Child pornography laws should be imposed to protect those that are unable to fully understand the gravity of their actions, they should not be there to restrain people from doing things that the majority of society finds disgusting.
Let me play devil's advocate - what if watching animated child porn excites a latent paedophile to the point where they want to try the real thing?

Let me play devil's advocate - what if watching animated child porn excites a latent paedophile to the point where they want to try the real thing?

What if watching "Saw" excites a latent serial killer to the point where they want to try the real thing? Should we ban serial killer movies? Red Dragon, Hannibal, Saw, Seven, etc.?

What if watching "Saw" excites a latent serial killer to the point where they want to try the real thing? Should we ban serial killer movies? Red Dragon, Hannibal, Saw, Seven, etc.?
I tend to agree with you on the basic point, but I think the paedophilia falls somewhat outside of the normal "shades of grey" issues dealing with morality and censorship...

And even if child molesters are the only people who want to buy it, well, then that's a clue, isn't it? Would you rather they were forced to be really good at hiding it?
What are you getting at, exactly?

There are some piss poor arguments in this thread to say the least. First of all this notion of animated child porn needs to be accurately defined. What exactly is animated child porn? Is some anime that details the harsh, tragic, and horrible life of a child prostitute considered porn? Is a movie along these lines that shows a rape scene to emphasize character an art or a detriment to society.

I'm not sure about this latent pedophile theory either, or the "fuel to the fire"... If I were a psychologist in this field I'd like to see some studies on the subject and research what exactly are the factors that cause an adult to become like this. Society, culture, genetics etc? After finding the causes I would then ask the question of whether or not this media contributes to the problem. If there is enough evidence that proves it does, then for the greater good of soceity this freedom would have to be curtailed because it infringes upon the rights of others.

I tend to agree with you on the basic point, but I think the paedophilia falls somewhat outside of the normal "shades of grey" issues dealing with morality and censorship...

What's worse cutting someone in half with a chainsaw or a child being raped? Both seem pretty bad to me.

Sure it should be legal, why not?...if some wierdo likes looking at that kind of stuff then who is he harming? its not like its real.

I've heard or read all the convoluted arguments about "artistic license," "freedom of speech," and "demonstratable harm" as it relates to art, or pornogrophy, or pornogrophy disguised as art, or even art disguised as pornogrophy. Where children are involved, they are all specious. Period.

If you have children, chances are you're not in favor of any sort of child-related pornogrophy, no matter how thinly disguised as "art," or incorrectly justified via some convoluted definition of "freedom of speech." Children are our future. I cannot imagine portraying our future in the hands of some slavering pedophile. And this includes animated and/or drawn portrayals.

Sure it should be legal, why not?...if some wierdo likes looking at that kind of stuff then who is he harming? its not like its real.
If I find someone in possession of such filth, I will kill him as I would kill a rabid dog or a rat, with no second thought.

If I find someone in possession of such filth, I will kill him as I would kill a rabid dog or a rat, with no second thought.
mmmmm, rationalization

mmmmm, rationalization
No. Rage and hatred, pure and simple.

It's stupid of me to ask this in the middle of this long of a thread, but what are we exactly considering "under-age" to be?

I'm 18 years old. Would I be considered a paedophile for watching an animation depicting a 16-year-old girl having sex? Obviously, a 40-year-old person would be a paedophile for being aroused by a 12-year-old. But what about a 17- or 16-year-old (I'm pushing it with the latter, I know), on the verge of being "legal", in America at least? Would the same 40-year-old be accused of paedophilia?

This "under-age" term is so superfluous. It depends on the age range.

Careful - you're mixing up paedophiles and child molestors, and they're not actually the same thing. A paedophile is sexually attracted to children. A child molestor molests them (duh). Obviously, there's a significant overlap between these two sets, but they're not equal. It seems a little unfair to want to shoot someone for something they can't control (their sexual desires) so long as they choose not to act on those desires.

So, assuming we're talking about people who know right from wrong and choose not to hurt kids, what's actually wrong with them making things easier for themselves by looking at pictures/videos of fictional children? Sure, it's pretty damn disturbing, but no children are involved, and no one's getting hurt.
Exactly my reasoning: if it keeps them occupied from possibly harming actual children, it's a bennifit.

It's stupid of me to ask this in the middle of this long of a thread, but what are we exactly considering "under-age" to be?

I'm 18 years old. Would I be considered a paedophile for watching an animation depicting a 16-year-old girl having sex? Obviously, a 40-year-old person would be a paedophile for being aroused by a 12-year-old. But what about a 17- or 16-year-old (I'm pushing it with the latter, I know), on the verge of being "legal", in America at least? Would the same 40-year-old be accused of paedophilia?

This "under-age" term is so superfluous. It depends on the age range.
Agreed, and that's one of the reasons I'm opposed to the idea of an arbitrary "consent age". It makes no sense that, say, an 18-year-old can't have sex with his 17-year-old girlfriend (even if they're in the same grade) without the risk of being charged with statutory rape. I think age difference should come more into play, along with the legal age. Therefore, say, a 15 and 14* could get together, but a 40-year-old and a 14-year-old couldn't.

*I have read of cases of this happening here in Canada as the consent age is 14.

It's stupid of me to ask this in the middle of this long of a thread, but what are we exactly considering "under-age" to be?

I'm 18 years old. Would I be considered a paedophile for watching an animation depicting a 16-year-old girl having sex? Obviously, a 40-year-old person would be a paedophile for being aroused by a 12-year-old. But what about a 17- or 16-year-old (I'm pushing it with the latter, I know), on the verge of being "legal", in America at least? Would the same 40-year-old be accused of paedophilia?

This "under-age" term is so superfluous. It depends on the age range.
Yes, to a degree, it does.

If I find someone in possession of such filth, I will kill him as I would kill a rabid dog or a rat, with no second thought.

O_o

Erm... that's a bit dramatic, eh? After all, if you were to do that, you would be just as bad as Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, etc, because you would be killing people who have commited no crime beause they did somethin gyou didn't like.

O_o

Erm... that's a bit dramatic, eh? After all, if you were to do that, you would be just as bad as Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, etc, because you would be killing people who have commited no crime beause they did somethin gyou didn't like.
It's not a matter of whether I "like" it or not. It's a matter of it being morally and practically wrong.

It's not a matter of whether I "like" it or not. It's a matter of it being morally and practically wrong.
Bring it on, buddy.
I'm no pedophile, but if you search my computer you will find movies in which underage girls are, at times, disrobed.
Maharomatic, as was mentioned, has an episode where a crazy robot cuts the swimming costumes off the female characters. It doesn't display anything. It is portrayed in an amusing way. There are other shows that *do* portray things. That doesn't mean the rest of the show isn't perfectly valid, or even that the pornographic section is invalid.

I've got a book of Anais Nin's writings (a famous French erotic writer) which has quite a few stories about paedophilia. Personally, they do nothing for me, sexually. They are still very interesting stories, and I wouldn't be upset if someone else told me that the stories excited them.

I don't personally enjoy the fact that Anime often shows obviously underaged girls in a sexual way (whether it shows pornography or not), just because I'm not comfortable with that. I'll still accept the artistic merits of shows that include this, assuming there is enough other substance to make it worth my while.

Often-times cartoons where the "underage" characters are drawn with very mature features, so what the viewer is actually attracted to are very much over-age features. I freely admit to being attracted to some "underage" anime characters. They sure aren't drawn as if they were underaged. I'm very much not attracted to the ones who are drawn as if they were prepubescent.

I really don't see the moral issue with drawing underage girls sexually. I might not enjoy it, but if other people do, what's the problem?
It's accepted that we can show people punching or killing each other. We can have actual real-life actors acting out those scenes. We're not even talking about real life children (wearing swimming-costumes, and those "bits" cg'd in. So that it's legal to make). We're talking about cartoons.

Nobody gets hurt. You're grossed out because you probably come from a society that's paranoid about paedophilia. It's a big taboo. I'm completely grossed out by the idea of people eating their own bodily wastes, but I'm not going to claim that Salvadore Dali isn't a great artist. I just won't look at select pictures, and will let others who enjoy it look at them. If I acceidentally see enough disgusting pictures of his, I'll stop looking through his works.

So, can you explain exactly why drawing a picture of something illegal is morally wrong?
Is it morally wrong for me to produce a movie about some bank robbers?

It's not a matter of whether I "like" it or not. It's a matter of it being morally and practically wrong.

Eek. How "wrong" does something have to be in order to warrant death, and who is qualified to judge right and wrong? Death as the wages of watching animated kiddie porn seems pretty extreme. I mean, it's icky, sure, but it's not like watching it harms anyone.

If you were suggesting shooting child molestors...well, I still wouldn't agree with you, but I'd at least understand. But killing people who merely like to picture Sailor Moon naked? Why?

But killing people who merely like to picture Sailor Moon naked? Why?
Especially considering how Sailor Moon is drawn.

Legs that are about three times as long as normal. Short skirt. Thin waist.
It's all designed to make her appear attractive, so it's no wonder that non-paedophiles will, at times, find "underage" girls attractive.

And, sexual as it may be, the child-audience doesn't pick up on that in the same way the adult audience does. It doesn't harm them.

There is no justifiable reason for animated depictions of children engaged in sex acts (otherwise known as lolicon) to be illegal, no children were ever harmed in it's production. I would go further and argue that simple possession of child porn which depicts real children should be legal. While it may be reprehensible no children are actually harmed by mere possession of it - creation of it is obviously a different story since real children are in fact harmed. Enforcement should focus on curbing production and not possession.

It's not a matter of whether I "like" it or not. It's a matter of it being morally and practically wrong.

Yeah, but that's no reason to be a senseless murderer, Stalin.

I could not argue the merit of animated child pornography, but I also can not argue for making it illegal, as no child is actually used in its production. After all, if no child is harmed or used in a manner inconsistent with legal consent, it is merely an "artistic" expression. It is part of the reason I cannot endorse censorship of pornography and pretty much anything--art is a fickle subject, and even if it is merely to entice, it arguably has more artistic merit than a lump of coal.

Oops. I accidentally misread it as "illegal" instead of "legal" and selected no. But anyways, I think that yes, it should be legal. Child pornography laws were created to protect the children, so if there's no children involved, it shouldn't be illegal.

Let me play devil's advocate - what if watching animated child porn excites a latent paedophile to the point where they want to try the real thing?

So how is that "Ban rap music and violent video games" petition going?

Yeah, but that's no reason to be a senseless murderer, Stalin.
This senseless murder, as you put it, actually does have sense in the mind of the one doing it. But I wouldn't go so far as to make reference to Stalin and whatnot. Using Hannibal, Gacy, and Bundy would be better examples.

Hi, first contribution to this forum - didn't really expect it to be on this, but 'tis an interesting subject.

The only valid justification for a prohibition on pseudo-paedophilic porn would be the belief that watching it would be more likely to make the viewer likely to act in a manner harmful to real children. And even though this is a necessary criterion, it isn't necessarily a sufficient one; freedoms have to balanced against risks, even - especially! - when they are unpopular freedoms.

I find it hard to imagine that cartoons of Lisa Simpson (yeah, I know :confused: ) banging her brother is likely to turn the casualk viewer into a rampaging child abuser, but some of the 'puter-generated stuff could, I imagine, just about pass as real. Which could, potentially, pose a problem for law enforcement.

Overall, no ban without plausible evidence of real, substantial harm.

It depends in the context, lolicon and shota is sometimes ok plotwise but a little disgusting.
If they're drawn like adults though...It doesn't really count does it?

Hi, first contribution to this forum - didn't really expect it to be on this, but 'tis an interesting subject.

The only valid justification for a prohibition on pseudo-paedophilic porn would be the belief that watching it would be more likely to make the viewer likely to act in a manner harmful to real children. And even though this is a necessary criterion, it isn't necessarily a sufficient one; freedoms have to balanced against risks, even - especially! - when they are unpopular freedoms.

I find it hard to imagine that cartoons of Lisa Simpson (yeah, I know :confused: ) banging her brother is likely to turn the casualk viewer into a rampaging child abuser, but some of the 'puter-generated stuff could, I imagine, just about pass as real. Which could, potentially, pose a problem for law enforcement.

Overall, no ban without plausible evidence of real, substantial harm.


Interesting point of view (the quality of animation approaching reality)

How about edited photos? Meaning taking two photo’s that might have not individually been sexually suggestive but edited together or with a bit of modification made to look as such

In that case you have pictures of real people but no one was really harmed in the making of the photo’s

Interesting point of view (the quality of animation approaching reality)

How about edited photos? Meaning taking two photo’s that might have not individually been sexually suggestive but edited together or with a bit of modification made to look as such

In that case you have pictures of real people but no one was really harmed in the making of the photo’s

Would that be akin to libel? You're potentially damaging someone's reputation without their consent.

It may be legal BUT if you dont watch it, the TV corperations will realise that people will not morally allow it and it will be taken off the air

Comment brought up in another thread spawned this
Should ANIMATED porn that depicts underage people be legal?

The original laws covering child pornography as explained to me were an attempt to protect our children by making the consumption of a product that can in no way be produced without committing molestation or statutory rape. As it is while libertarian I think it was a necessary step to protect our children

BUT with animated depiction no kids are harmed in the production of it.

Should it still be illegal if this is not directly attempting to protect the actual children used in production


(poll coming may take a min)

If anyone can get off on cartoon "porn," more power to them, although I think they are pathetic in the extreme.

It doesn't hurt actual kids. It's just drawings. Since when do we punish people for drawing pictures or looking at pictures?

What is sad is that there is a market out there for any child porn real or animated. It is also sad that a law had to be made to protect kids from being used in the making of these films. The reasoning behind extending the ban to animated child porn is so as not to further fuel the desire pedophiles feel towards children and promote them acting on their predatory impulses in real life. Since the desire for children sexually usually comes from a person’s inadequacy to find a lover of their own age or at least someone that is mature enough to make up their own mind. Pedophiles are the worst in the sexual offenders as they prey on those that they can coerce and trick to believe that it is natural and ok. It is the sexual equivalent of Mike Tyson picking a fight with an 80lb. 12yo. Odds are against the kid lasting a micro second and the pedophiles know this and that is why the go after kids of whom they are positive they can take advantage.

Would that be akin to libel? You're potentially damaging someone's reputation without their consent.
Hmmm maybe but I am not sure and if they are family photos or something and parents gave the permission …

There is no justifiable reason for animated depictions of children engaged in sex acts (otherwise known as lolicon) to be illegal, no children were ever harmed in it's production. I would go further and argue that simple possession of child porn which depicts real children should be legal. While it may be reprehensible no children are actually harmed by mere possession of it - creation of it is obviously a different story since real children are in fact harmed. Enforcement should focus on curbing production and not possession.
Oh My GOD!!! With your logic you would make it impossible for the authorities to enforce any laws. You would set precedent that would spill over to all facets of law enforcement. Basically you are saying without catching someone at the time a crime is committed in the act with witnesses you could do nothing against them. That the possession of substances or goods deemed illegal is not a crime just the production of such. This is more of the put the blame on someone other than me syndrome that is causing the world to decay morally. With your point of view someone could break into your home steal everything you own and the police come across them and verify they were you goods but do nothing about it. All they could prove was the possession of illegally obtained goods not that they stole them. By making the possession of stolen goods a crime it acts as a deterrent to people stealing (even though it doesn't seem so) since it is harder for them to profit from it if people know they will be held accountable if caught with stolen goods. Just like making possession of child pornography illegal is to make it harder for the industry to make the films by keeping the number of people willing to take the risk of buying it low.

I think porn, any porn is a subject that kids do not have the emotional resources to handle.

PS I work with kids and see just how imature 13 and 14 yo's can be! :gundge:

I think porn, any porn is a subject that kids do not have the emotional resources to handle.

PS I work with kids and see just how imature 13 and 14 yo's can be! :gundge:
We were not discussing consumption rather production

The reasoning behind extending the ban to animated child porn is so as not to further fuel the desire pedophiles feel towards children and promote them acting on their predatory impulses in real life. Since the desire for children sexually usually comes from a person’s inadequacy to find a lover of their own age or at least someone that is mature enough to make up their own mind. Pedophiles are the worst in the sexual offenders as they prey on those that they can coerce and trick to believe that it is natural and ok.
You don't get it, do you? You and a whole bunch of other reactionists on this forum are having serious problems understanding that stopping the flow of these sorts of materials won't stop paedophilia, child molestation, or statutory rape. This sort of problem lies deep down mentally inside in most cases. Taking away the so-called "source" of the problem will just cause the people in question to use other outlets for their desire.

It hasn't been proven either way that having "underage" animated pornography causes an increase in paedophilia and its associated crimes. However, it is logical to look at other countries that do have these sorts of materials available and see how the people there have been affected.

Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world while having child animated pornography available to everyone. Granted there are problems with having women report sexual crimes against them because of cultural bias, but I can say safely that the level of overall crime is low. Someone mentioned earlier that, if this sort of stuff is available in a country as conservative as Japan, then it certainly wouldn't have any problem in other parts of the West.

If there wanking of a child animated porno there not on the streets molesting your daughter. Noone is harmed in the making of animated porn, thats why its so great.

We were not discussing consumption rather production
You can't discuss production without consumption!! After all, why is it being produced?

Also I know of kids in junior high and grade school who have had access to porn on the internet!

I cannot speak to other countries handling of of porn, I have made no study of them! But I have seen the kids at the schools I work in and question their ability to handle it!

And if you don't think the kids will get their hands on it well I have some land for you to buy!!

Would that be akin to libel? You're potentially damaging someone's reputation without their consent.

Very good question! If so, the Net is chock-full of potentially libellous (defamatory in my jurisdiction) mocked-up pseudo-porn pictures of Britney Spiers & Beyonce, any one of which could give rise to legal action. I suspect the reason their lawyers don't get on the case is because this would simply draw more attention to the material in question.

You can't discuss production without consumption!! After all, why is it being produced?

Also I know of kids in junior high and grade school who have had access to porn on the internet!

I cannot speak to other countries handling of of porn, I have made no study of them! But I have seen the kids at the schools I work in and question their ability to handle it!

And if you don't think the kids will get their hands on it well I have some land for you to buy!!

But is that a formula for prohibiting adults access to anything that could be potentially harmful in the hgands of children? My country, certainly, has been utterly unable to prevent, say, alcohol & tobacco falling into the hands of (sometimes very young) children. It's illegal, sure, but it happens. Does this justify an outright ban on these substances?

You can't discuss production without consumption!! After all, why is it being produced?

Also I know of kids in junior high and grade school who have had access to porn on the internet!

I cannot speak to other countries handling of of porn, I have made no study of them! But I have seen the kids at the schools I work in and question their ability to handle it!

And if you don't think the kids will get their hands on it well I have some land for you to buy!!
Fine we are talking about the hypothetical involving only an adult (18+) base audience

If you want to discuss the merits of letting younger people view porn then start a thread on it

Don't worry. It will be banned, soon, anyway, and none of us will have to worry about it.

Don't worry. It will be banned, soon, anyway, and none of us will have to worry about it.
Animated porn?

And why does that remove the worry about unsupported infringement on our rights

If I find someone in possession of such filth, I will kill him as I would kill a rabid dog or a rat, with no second thought.
Because acting on personal distaste is always the right thing to do :rolleyes:

Animated porn?

And why does that remove the worry about unsupported infringement on our rights

I was being sarcastic, actually.

I was being sarcastic, actually.
I was confused lol :)

Hmmm maybe but I am not sure and if they are family photos or something and parents gave the permission …

Oog. That's one of those sticky situations that needs to be individually evaluated, as opposed to unilaterally choosing some arbitrary line. You'd have to get the specifics from all angles--was anyone harmed? Does a parent have the right to stain their child's reputation so? Weird, icky questions. But they'd need to be asked.

Very good question! If so, the Net is chock-full of potentially libellous (defamatory in my jurisdiction) mocked-up pseudo-porn pictures of Britney Spiers & Beyonce, any one of which could give rise to legal action. I suspect the reason their lawyers don't get on the case is because this would simply draw more attention to the material in question.

Actually, lawyers DO go after some of those sites. :) I believe Alyssa Milano went through something like that.

I think it's the facial likeness that gets 'em into hot water.

Oog. That's one of those sticky situations that needs to be individually evaluated, as opposed to unilaterally choosing some arbitrary line. You'd have to get the specifics from all angles--was anyone harmed? Does a parent have the right to stain their child's reputation so? Weird, icky questions. But they'd need to be asked.
Yeah was thinking along the same lines

Actually, lawyers DO go after some of those sites. :) I believe Alyssa Milano went through something like that.

I think it's the facial likeness that gets 'em into hot water.
Hmmm never heard of that

Hmmm never heard of that

http://www.courttv.com/archive/legaldocs/newsmakers/alyssa1.html

http://www.courttv.com/archive/legaldocs/newsmakers/alyssa1.html


More:

http://www.fake-detective.com/faqs/legal-1.htm

Yes! Because Its So Hawt!

*fap*fap*fap*

EDIT

Awww...Jolt stole my caps. It's cruise control for cool, ya know.

Acctually, it is very wrong,in my opionion and shouldn't be legal. Even if a child isn't harmed, animated children porn is just going to feed a fire. It's like saying that we should allow an animated cartoon of a rape/serial killing.


Like that bit in kill bill? I dont think anyone here would advocate putting something like that on Cartoon Network =0

Has anyone ever noticed the way the Good guys in manga / anima have big round, western eyes, whilst the baddies usually have the more Asian type almond shaped eyes (which in my humble opioion are far nicer), Is this a sign the the animators, at least hate themselves? or am I talking crap.

Of course it should be illegal.

It may be animated, but it still plants the seed in the already warped minds. Envision a twisted little man actually getting off to that crap, then opting to visit local school parks...

http://www.courttv.com/archive/legaldocs/newsmakers/alyssa1.html
HEHEHE some of the defendants were from minnesota :)

Has anyone ever noticed the way the Good guys in manga / anima have big round, western eyes, whilst the baddies usually have the more Asian type almond shaped eyes (which in my humble opioion are far nicer), Is this a sign the the animators, at least hate themselves? or am I talking crap.

I am told it is because large eyes imply more emotional sensitivity. They are more expressive than smaller ones. A cruel antagonist is obviously not particularly sensitive, so they have smaller eyes.

Of course it should be illegal.

It may be animated, but it still plants the seed in the already warped minds. Envision a twisted little man actually getting off to that crap, then opting to visit local school parks...
Ok prove harm … prove it causes anything other then arousal
It may be sick but you have to have PROOF to restrict rights

HEHEHE some of the defendants were from minnesota :)

I thought you might get a kick out of that. :D

There are lots of studies about the effects of pornography. Does viewing child pornography create a greater desire in perpetrators to abuse children? Yes, the majority of studies indicate that. There have been studies that demonstrate arousal of perpetrators from viewing child pornography, particularly pedophile. We can’t say absolutely if pornography makes them act on their arousal, but it seems to be part of the constellation about what causes them to abuse.

Just because it is animation does not make it any less child pornography.

Regards,


JMayo

Another useful tool with Pedophiles would be a 12 Gauge Shotgun blast to the head. I have zero and i do mean NO sympathy for Pedophiles, if i was in charge they would all be lined up and shot.

Abusing a child is the 1 crime i view worse than any other, worse than rape, worse than murder, worse than Treason

Our friend ADOLF HITLER felt the exact same way about Jews. Yiu are as bad as him, IMHO. I had written a longer and more detailed post, but it screwed up when I pressed the Preview button so it went away.

A few words that describe you:

Hate monger
Barbaric
Unconstitutional
Cruel
Self-absorbed
Extremist

I could go itno immature, but APPROPIATE terms for you.

I personally think that it should be legal, as long as the FAKE children appear to be over 14 years of age and both were fully consenting.

There are lots of studies about the effects of pornography. Does viewing child pornography create a greater desire in perpetrators to abuse children? Yes, the majority of studies indicate that. There have been studies that demonstrate arousal of perpetrators from viewing child pornography, particularly pedophile. We can’t say absolutely if pornography makes them act on their arousal, but it seems to be part of the constellation about what causes them to abuse.

Just because it is animation does not make it any less child pornography.

Regards,


JMayo

Umm...yeah. There are studies that show that people are aroused by porn. Uhuh.... You actually felt you needed to post to tell us about this startling revelation? How about pointing out some studies which show that animated images of pornography featuring minors increases the risk of abuse? Oh, I see! there arent any!

Our friend ADOLF HITLER felt the exact same way about Jews. Yiu are as bad as him, IMHO. I had written a longer and more detailed post, but it screwed up when I pressed the Preview button so it went away.

A few words that describe you:

Hate monger
Barbaric
Unconstitutional
Cruel
Self-absorbed
Extremist

I could go itno immature, but APPROPIATE terms for you.

I personally think that it should be legal, as long as the FAKE children appear to be over 14 years of age and both were fully consenting.

Child pornography is still child pornography even if it is animation.

I have never met a 14 year old who was as mature as they think they are or want to be.


JMayo

If animated kiddy porn increases the risk of pedophiles abusing kids we should still not ban drawings. We should more agressively target the pedophiles.

Some studies have shown a correlation between violent movies and murder.
Some studies have shown a correlation between porn and rape.

In both instances we haven't banned porn and slasher movies. Why should animated child porn be different? The product itself is not dangerous. Some of the people who purchase it might be. Punish the criminal, don't create a whole new class of criminals by passing useless laws.

Umm...yeah. There are studies that show that people are aroused by porn. Uhuh.... You actually felt you needed to post to tell us about this startling revelation? How about pointing out some studies which show that animated images of pornography featuring minors increases the risk of abuse? Oh, I see! there arent any!


Are you so sure there are not studies showing there is no difference between animation and the real thing.
When was the last time you read American Journal of Psychiatry?

Regards,

JMayo

Just because it is animation does not make it any less child pornography.


Yes, it most certainly does. Child pornography requires the participation of children. Animated kiddie porn requires the participation of...fictional characters. Until a fictional character's rights are equal in importance to those of a human child, to say that animated porn is the same as "real" porn is just silly.

Are you so sure there are not studies showing there is no difference between animation and the real thing.
When was the last time you read American Journal of Psychiatry?

Regards,

JMayo

I stay up to date by reading Psychological Abstracts, not the AJP. This is much more useful to those wishing to stay up to date since they cover articles from many more sources than just the one journal.

My point wasnt that there is a difference between animated and real porn anyway. My point was that no relationship between pornography, or even child pornography consumption and child abuse has ever been established. Evidence would seem to indicate the opposite. Despite the explosion of child pornography in the 90s due to the rise of the internet, the rate of child sexual abuse has continued to very slowly decrease. Therefore, common sense tells us there is most likely no causal relationship. If there isnt a relationship between real child porn and child abuse, then the chances are much smaller that you will find one between fake child porn and child abuse.

I have never met a 14 year old who was as mature as they think they are or want to be.
Well, that's a great argument against real child pornography.
But it's rather difficult to test whether or not a fictional character is ready for sex and really wants to be involved in pornography. Perhaps partly because said character is fictional?

Child pornography is still child pornography even if it is animation.

I have never met a 14 year old who was as mature as they think they are or want to be.


JMayo
And what does the maturity of a 14 year old real person have to do with a drawn fictional charicter?

No porn should be legal.

No porn should be legal.
Thats your opinion ... thankfully we (at least are attempting) to live in a society that allows people freedoms unless there is a clear and vested interest in disallowing them

And what does the maturity of a 14 year old real person have to do with a drawn fictional charicter?

Please go back and read the post I was responding to.

Regards,

JMayo

Please go back and read the post I was responding to.

Regards,

JMayo
Thank you my bad

Oh My GOD!!! With your logic you would make it impossible for the authorities to enforce any laws. You would set precedent that would spill over to all facets of law enforcement. Basically you are saying without catching someone at the time a crime is committed in the act with witnesses you could do nothing against them. If possession of child porn was made legal it would not prevent law enforcement was using it to demonstrate that a crime was committed. In my state of Massachusetts for example, it is legal to possess marijuana smoking paraphernalia (bongs, pipes, rolling papers, etc.), these items despite being legal can be used by police to demonstrate that a crime was committed, namely the smoking of marijuana.That the possession of substances or goods deemed illegal is not a crime just the production of such. This is more of the put the blame on someone other than me syndrome that is causing the world to decay morally. With your point of view someone could break into your home steal everything you own and the police come across them and verify they were you goods but do nothing about it. All they could prove was the possession of illegally obtained goods not that they stole them.Your argument is specious, computer images are essentially immaterial whereas a stolen radio is material and has monetary value. Secondly, the reason possession of stolen goods is illegal is because continued possession of such stolen goods by someone other than the true owner denies that original owner the value they rightly deserve to derive from that good, whereas continued possession of CP hurts no one.
By making the possession of stolen goods a crime it acts as a deterrent to people stealing (even though it doesn't seem so) since it is harder for them to profit from it if people know they will be held accountable if caught with stolen goods. Just like making possession of child pornography illegal is to make it harder for the industry to make the films by keeping the number of people willing to take the risk of buying it low.In my original post I should of included the caveat that I feel it should be illegal to profit from CP, while it is possible for someone to amass a collection of CP that they did not themselves produce and then sell it for a profit, there is the possibility that the profit could create an incentive to commit a crime so as to produce original content. Most consumers of CP are unwilling to take the risk of actually buying it, would you give your credit card to a website that may possibly be a police sting? This is why CP is mostly a non-commercial venture.

The best way to fight sexual exploitation of children for the purpose of creation of child porn is to refocus enforcement towards fighting just that, the production and commercial distribution of CP. There is no compelling interest to criminalize mere possession.

Please go back and read the post I was responding to.

Regards,

JMayo
nope still doesnt make any sense.

are you suggesting that cartoon porn featuring consenting 14 year old teens should be illegal?

and when you say "illegal" what kind of laws and penalties are you thinking of?

I stay up to date by reading Psychological Abstracts, not the AJP. This is much more useful to those wishing to stay up to date since they cover articles from many more sources than just the one journal.

My point wasnt that there is a difference between animated and real porn anyway. My point was that no relationship between pornography, or even child pornography consumption and child abuse has ever been established. Evidence would seem to indicate the opposite. Despite the explosion of child pornography in the 90s due to the rise of the internet, the rate of child sexual abuse has continued to very slowly decrease. Therefore, common sense tells us there is most likely no causal relationship. If there isnt a relationship between real child porn and child abuse, then the chances are much smaller that you will find one between fake child porn and child abuse.

You also need to go back and read what I wrote.

Please point out where I said there was a direct link between action and the pornography.
I believe I said -
"We can’t say absolutely if pornography makes them act on their arousal, but it seems to be part of the constellation about what causes them to abuse.”

Every thing I posted is factual and true. It can and has been proven.

There is a relationship between predatory child sexual abuse and child porn including drawing and animations. Whether that link is a trigger to them acting out or not has yet to be proven. A simple study you can do from home, which can be done in just about any the courts that do not completely seal the evidence on child sex offenders.

Take a look at their collections. There is some that you won’t find easily on the net that can not be denied as child porn even if animated. That which depicts older men or women and little girls or boys is. I do not for a minute claim all Japanese animation of a sexual nature is porn. But that which depicts graphic sexual encounters between adults and children even if fake is child pornography. That between adults that is graphic is porn whether real or fake. If you people want to split hair because it is animated rather then real, well that is your prerogative. You may even make yourself believe it.

I don't believe I said anything about making it illegal now did I?


Regards,

JMayo

nope still doesnt make any sense.

are you suggesting that cartoon porn featuring consenting 14 year old teens should be illegal?

and when you say "illegal" what kind of laws and penalties are you thinking of?


Did I say illegal in my post?
I do not believe so if I did it was a mistake on my part.

Regards,

JMayo

Did I say illegal in my post?
I do not believe so if I did it was a mistake on my part.

Regards,

JMayo
are you thinking that someone on this thread thinks that animated child porn is a GOOD thing?

i dont see the point of going on and on about how bad it is when everyone already agrees with you

the question of the thread is SHOULD IT BE LEGAL?

are you thinking that someone on this thread thinks that animated child porn is a GOOD thing?

i dont see the point of going on and on about how bad it is when everyone already agrees with you

the question of the thread is SHOULD IT BE LEGAL?
Exactly ... like I stated before

I have trouble banning something just because I find it distastefull

That is not enough reason for me

Exactly ... like I stated before

I have trouble banning something just because I find it distastefull

That is not enough reason for me
me either

im against putting a man in jail because he has bad thoughts, bad impulses and looks at nasty drawings.

Every thing I posted is factual and true. It can and has been proven.

There is a relationship between predatory child sexual abuse and child porn including drawing and animations. Whether that link is a trigger to them acting out or not has yet to be proven. A simple study you can do from home, which can be done in just about any the courts that do not completely seal the evidence on child sex offenders.


Ok, so lets see the evidence, where is it? Id like to know which studies you are reffering to.

When you look at statistics what you find is that, while the consumption of child pornography has skyrocketed with the rise of the internet, the incidence of sexual abuse of minors has undergone no significant change other than to continue its slow decline which had begun before the internet era. If there were some relationship between the two variables (consumption of child pornography and sexual abuse of children), we wouldve seen that when the consumption of child pornography skyrocketed with the rise of the internet in the 90s, the child sexual abuse rate wouldve also increased to some degree. However, it did not. This can lead to only one conclusion, the two variables are totally independent and lowering or increasing one will not affect the other in any way.

Of course, this doesnt mean we should legalize real child pornography. There is a major interest in keeping real child pornography illegal because it harms real children. But it does mean that there is no scientific basis for banning fake child pornography. There are moral reasons, of course. So it comes down to the classic question of how much you want to regulate morality.

It seems like what has been proven is what I stated, there is no relationship.

You don't get it, do you? You and a whole bunch of other reactionists on this forum are having serious problems understanding that stopping the flow of these sorts of materials won't stop paedophilia, child molestation, or statutory rape. This sort of problem lies deep down mentally inside in most cases. Taking away the so-called "source" of the problem will just cause the people in question to use other outlets for their desire.

It hasn't been proven either way that having "underage" animated pornography causes an increase in paedophilia and its associated crimes. However, it is logical to look at other countries that do have these sorts of materials available and see how the people there have been affected.

Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world while having child animated pornography available to everyone. Granted there are problems with having women report sexual crimes against them because of cultural bias, but I can say safely that the level of overall crime is low. Someone mentioned earlier that, if this sort of stuff is available in a country as conservative as Japan, then it certainly wouldn't have any problem in other parts of the West.
One of the reasons Japan has such a low crime rate is that the prison system there is so strict (as opposed to the ones in the U.S.) that it really works as a deterrent. As for the ready access to the masses of the animated child porn that is a misconception. Just because it comes from Japan in general doesn't mean it is actually readily available to the general public. I have had family and friends that have had the pleasure and privilege to live in and visit Japan. And each has commented that they had anticipated seeing Hentai to be sold in every corner store with the perception they had prior to going. Finding quite the contrary it is much less available.
So as to someone who doesn't get it maybe it is you that just doesn't get it. I am not saying that we would be able to actually stop it. But just because you can't really put an end to something so repulsive doesn't mean you turn a blind eye to it. We will never stop murder, should we just legalize it? (an exaggeration I know).

One of the reasons Japan has such a low crime rate is that the prison system there is so strict (as opposed to the ones in the U.S.) that it really works as a deterrent. As for the ready access to the masses of the animated child porn that is a misconception. Just because it comes from Japan in general doesn't mean it is actually readily available to the general public. I have had family and friends that have had the pleasure and privilege to live in and visit Japan. And each has commented that they had anticipated seeing Hentai to be sold in every corner store with the perception they had prior to going. Finding quite the contrary it is much less available.
So as to someone who doesn't get it maybe it is you that just doesn't get it. I am not saying that we would be able to actually stop it. But just because you can't really put an end to something so repulsive doesn't mean you turn a blind eye to it. We will never stop murder, should we just legalize it? (an exaggeration I know).
Hmmm when I visited it was on broadcast and cable tv

Not "all over" but they had their equivelent of "basic" cable and it included a few of thoes channels

General programming also was a bit more violent and sexualy sugestive then what is on cable over here

I thought Psycologists have already proven that most sexual offenders already watch high amounts of porn, and the porn, rathern then having a calming effect actually spurred them to commit crimes?

There is a relationship between predatory child sexual abuse and child porn including drawing and animations.

I would be surprised if it were otherwise. The question is whether it is a causal link. Both consumers of child porn and child abusers are likely to come from the wider class of those with paedophilic appetites, but it does not follow from this that looking at CP leads to abuse of actual children.

However, even if such evidence did exist, the question remains as to whether this alone is sufficient justification for criminalisation. A few highly troubled people appear to be 'inspired' by The Bible to commit horrible crimes - in the UK, the serial killer known as the Yorkshire Ripper believed God told him to murder prostitutes - but it is rarely seriously suggested that The Good Book be outlawed. Similarly, we may be willing to accept a risk that a small number of already troubled people would be rendered slightly more likely to abuse children, rather than to criminalise a whole new area of (in itself) harmless behviour.

I thought Psycologists have already proven that most sexual offenders already watch high amounts of porn, and the porn, rathern then having a calming effect actually spurred them to commit crimes?

Even if that were so, it doesn't eliminate the possibility that a whole category of potential sex offenders actually were afforded release by watching porn, and thereby remined only potential offenders. In much the same way that its difficult to count the potential murderers deterred by the death penalty, looking only at the effects on those who go on to commit crime presents an incomplete picture at best.

I thought Psycologists have already proven that most sexual offenders already watch high amounts of porn, and the porn, rathern then having a calming effect actually spurred them to commit crimes?
Care to prove that?

I thought Psycologists have already proven that most sexual offenders already watch high amounts of porn, and the porn, rathern then having a calming effect actually spurred them to commit crimes?
Yes, I'd like to see a source on that as well.

I'm sure some individuals have their unwholesome appetites fired by watching porn, but for the VAST majority, it has an almost therapudic effect (assuming it is accompanied with *ahem* manual release)...

Yes, it should be legal, BECAUSE IT'S NOT REAL, IS IT?

Besides, when the Japs draw an eighteen-year old they look about twelve. It's not like you'd be able to stamp it out.

I would be surprised if it were otherwise. The question is whether it is a causal link. Both consumers of child porn and child abusers are likely to come from the wider class of those with paedophilic appetites, but it does not follow from this that looking at CP leads to abuse of actual children.

However, even if such evidence did exist, the question remains as to whether this alone is sufficient justification for criminalisation. A few highly troubled people appear to be 'inspired' by The Bible to commit horrible crimes - in the UK, the serial killer known as the Yorkshire Ripper believed God told him to murder prostitutes - but it is rarely seriously suggested that The Good Book be outlawed. Similarly, we may be willing to accept a risk that a small number of already troubled people would be rendered slightly more likely to abuse children, rather than to criminalise a whole new area of (in itself) harmless behviour.


You are right we do not know how child porn or porn plays out in triggering the actual attack. There is not doubt it helps build a preditor up to it. There are so many gray areas. But are you willing to take the chance that it isn't a direct trigger? (that is a real question)

We know how much this sort of thing plays on the physical responses of teenage boys and men real or animated. And we know the state of arousal it can induce in a sexual predator be it child or adult.

For me animated graphic art is porn and no one here has said a thing to change my mind. Actually some of the comments against it being porn on the basis it was fake, not real and it has no real effect have strengthened that opinion. Not everyone places animated works into the realm of not real.
If the person producing the work knows what they are doing the can get far greater reactions with animation then real life. Porn in and of it self should not be banned or outlawed. I fully expect that with in the next 2 to 3 years at the most you will have the studies showing a direct link between porn and sexual predators. But that still does not mean all porn should be banned.
Child pornography, be it real or animated has no place in society.
I am speaking of graphic sexual encounters.

If someone can show me how such a thing is art, I would be willing to listen.
That it isn't real or that it is fake is only an excuse and doesn't cut it.

Also to the story of the guy who heard god and killed that is a very different type of problem then the one we have been talking about it is not an apple to apples comparison.

I am not advocating that porn be banned.


Regards,

John Mayo

You are right we do not know how child porn or porn plays out in triggering the actual attack. There is not doubt it helps build a preditor up to it. There are so many gray areas. But are you willing to take the chance that it isn't a direct trigger? (that is a real question)


John Mayo
So we are restricting peoples rights based on a unsupported theory now ?

There is a chance that seeing a Disney movie would cause a child molester to act

Do you propose we ban Disney movies

(I am absolutely not saying it does or has any correlation … but it has about the same proven correlation as animated porn)

So we are restricting peoples rights based on a unsupported theory now ?

There is a chance that seeing a Disney movie would cause a child molester to act

Do you propose we ban Disney movies

(I am absolutely not saying it does or has any correlation … but it has about the same proven correlation as animated porn)

You are wrong and the studies are available.
You might have to go to a university library to read them but they are there.

While they do not point to any one thing as a trigger they will make it clear there is a vast difference in both physical and emotional responses in both children and adults who watch a Disney movie and an r rated movie or porn. You comparison was a stretch beyond reality.
You also did not bother to answer the question I asked. All this talk and not one word as to the child's rights or even how animated child pornography is art. The excuse because it is fake is just that an excuse. If a child predator gets off on it a child will be hurt so it does cause harm. The supposed idea that it provides these people release so they are less likely to hurt someone was disproved in the 60's and is as much a fantasy as the animated work.
I have never said restrict or outlaw porn. I don't know that it would work and quite frankly until people start viewing it for what it is instead of making excuses to watch it or have it available as if it were a right I don't believe a law will do any good. I never asked for restrictions our a ban. I asked if you would be willing to put a child in your family at risk for your art? Are you willing to bet the life of a kid to prove it isn't a trigger?
I am not.


Thank you for the entertainment, I believe we have gone as far as we can go with out going in circles.

Regards,

JMayo

You also did not bother to answer the question I asked. All this talk and not one word as to the child's rights or even how animated child pornography is art.


Something doesnt have to be art to be legal. Pornography isnt art either but its legal.

The excuse because it is fake is just that an excuse. If a child predator gets off on it a child will be hurt so it does cause harm. The supposed idea that it provides these people release so they are less likely to hurt someone was disproved in the 60's and is as much a fantasy as the animated work.


Really? Which studies in the 60s disproved this?


Are you willing to bet the life of a kid to prove it isn't a trigger?
I am not.


It has already been proven that it is not a trigger. If it were, the incidence of child sexual abuse wouldve increased with the explosion of child pornography on the internet in the 90s. It hasnt, and in fact continues its slow descent. More people have viewed real child pornography in the last 15 years than ever before in history, yet the rate of child sexual abuse is at its lowest point in history (at least in the US). This is totally inconsistent with the view that there is some causal relationship between child porn and child sexual abuse.

Since there is no relationship between real child porn consumption and child sexual abuse, I find it difficult to believe there would be one between fake child porn and child sexual abuse. Real child porn of course needs to remain illegal because it exploits real children. But fake child porn exploits no one and there is no basis for it to be illegal.

You are wrong and the studies are available.
You might have to go to a university library to read them but they are there.

While they do not point to any one thing as a trigger they will make it clear there is a vast difference in both physical and emotional responses in both children and adults who watch a Disney movie and an r rated movie or porn. You comparison was a stretch beyond reality.
You also did not bother to answer the question I asked. All this talk and not one word as to the child's rights or even how animated child pornography is art. The excuse because it is fake is just that an excuse. If a child predator gets off on it a child will be hurt so it does cause harm. The supposed idea that it provides these people release so they are less likely to hurt someone was disproved in the 60's and is as much a fantasy as the animated work.
I have never said restrict or outlaw porn. I don't know that it would work and quite frankly until people start viewing it for what it is instead of making excuses to watch it or have it available as if it were a right I don't believe a law will do any good. I never asked for restrictions our a ban. I asked if you would be willing to put a child in your family at risk for your art? Are you willing to bet the life of a kid to prove it isn't a trigger?
I am not.


Thank you for the entertainment, I believe we have gone as far as we can go with out going in circles.

Regards,

JMayo


I work in the universitly library building (we are also a federal repository) and nope I looked yesterday

Care to support your clames with something better then "they are out there somewhere"

Show us a study

There are so many gray areas. But are you willing to take the chance that it isn't a direct trigger? (that is a real question)


Clearly, we aren't going to be able to establish definitively the degree of causal relationship - the odd study either way won't settle the issue anyway - but that's an interesting question. The honest answer is, yes, I am willing to take some risks with child safety, and I'm willing to bet so are all of you. As I said earlier, I can't exclude the possibility that children will get hold of alcohol and harm themselves. Ditto cigarettes, razor blades, inuprofen. I've heard that last year, nine children were killed in the USA by their parents reversing their SUVs. Child safety is an important consideration, but I am not willing to extend draconian policing to even the most private areas of people's lives just on the remote off-chance that they might go on to abuse a child whom they wouldn't have abused otherwise.

Btw, are we talking about criminalising only the sale of ACP, or even the possession of it? If I doodled a little sketch of a naked 6yo, from my own imagination & for my own gratification, would I be - in your eyes - a criminal?

But just because you can't really put an end to something so repulsive doesn't mean you turn a blind eye to it. We will never stop murder, should we just legalize it? (an exaggeration I know).

When was the last time you protested against a cartoon that featured a murder?
Nobody is talking about promoting criminal acts here, but why do people regard a cartoon depicting pedophile action as criminal while they have no such problems with a cartoon that features murder?