NationStates Jolt Archive

Talking about Orwell and the Spanish civil war, I did just a little bit of soul searching - and I found out something strange.
Although I am a Pacifist, I still believe that I would go out if there was a revolution. Even more interestingly, I don't even know what such a revolution would have to be about, because I really don't have political beliefs that could be achieved with a violent revolution.

So what about you?
Could you imagine yourself one day seeing something on the news, getting your jacket and your shoes and leaving your house to fight to change your government and society?

Oddly enough, perhaps.

Give an example of such a revolution, my friend.

Give an example of such a revolution, my friend.
I guess that depends on the person.
A party, a movement that you agree with goes to overthrow the Government, and calls out for everyone sympathetic to their cause to help.
Would you answer the call?

So what about you?
Could you imagine yourself one day seeing something on the news, getting your jacket and your shoes and leaving your house to fight to change your government and society?

I personally advocate for such a revolution. My personal belief is the only way to be sure of the strength of your beliefs is in violent conflict.

In a revolt against tyranny, I'd fight.

Against a revolt fought for unfounded reasons, I too, would fight.

ho, ho.

that'll learn 'im.

If they gave me cookies and orange juice.

If my government became something I would consider evil in an Orwellian sense, a government against the people, then I would hate it. And if there was an organized force to overturn it and restore the former order, I think I would. I would of course feel anxious and nervous about being in guerilla combat, and I would of course have trouble dealing with all of what was happening. But I think I would do my part.

And I think it would be rather fun.

Sure, I would! Example? Heroic militants from CNT-FAI during Spanish Civil War. Yesterday there was an annivesary of it's beginning.

And I think it would be rather fun.
My idea of fun involves lots of comfy couches and tasty gnosh. I wouldn't go joining the revolution looking for fun in any real sense of the word...

guerilla combat

...mm. That phrase...


Revolution does not inherently imply guerilla combat. Guerilla combat does not inherently imply revolution. Guerilla combat is a means for a weaker force to defeat a stronger, more organized, better equipped force.

Quoting Dobbsworld
My idea of fun involves lots of comfy couches and tasty gnosh. I wouldn't go joining the revolution looking for fun in any real sense of the word...

Good for you.

Much of revolutions of the 20th Century and before have been revolutions fought with guerilla tactics, which is logical, because most revolutionary forces are weaker than the stronger National presence.

Depends, really.

If by fighting you mean taking up arms and killing others, then no. In no case ever.
If, however, by fighting you mean organising opposition, subversive acts, sabotage, stirring up a mass movement, then count me in. I've done that before and I'll help again ;)

I would join the revolution if it meant displacing a ruling power that has unduly or unlawfully suspended or significantly altered the charter of rights.

Hopefully this would not necessitate extreme violence. But who can say 'til push comes to shove, eh?

I voted other because it would seriously depend on what the revolution was about and if it would really help to do violence (which, in the case of a neo-Nazi take over would most certainly be necessary... non-violent protest wouldn't do any good against those).

On a side note, the ancient Athenians actually had a law against not participating in a revolution. They had to decide for one camp, and got punished if they were opportunists... :p

I think a better question is Could we? While I would, I simply don't have the guts to be a soldier or saboteur. i would fight along the front of Rhetoric. Let the Pravda prevail!

If the purpose of the revolution matched my ways of thinking, then I would have to join, otherwise, my views are meaningless.

It is the same in an election. If you don't vote, then you have no place to complain about the government in power who won that election. You had you chance to make your opinion heard, and you blew it by not voting.

Truth should always prevail, tovarisch.

Let the Pravda prevail!

While I would, I simply don't have the guts to be a soldier or saboteur.
Let's assume for future reference that you just have the choice to go out there and fight, or not fight.
Otherwise everyone is going to vote other so as not to seem squeemish... :p

I voted yes, but upon further reflection, I might actually go out and fight it. Objectivism contends that the use of physical force is evil; and it doesn't get much more physical than a revolution. I, for one, will not allow the followers of philosophy contradict themselves.

I would probably join a revolution (not in Britain ATM though), as I'd like to make sure we don't get traitorous Stalin/Mao bastards taking over. I'd make sure Trotsky doesn't get ice picked in the head. ;)
If I were fighting in the Russian Revolution, I'd probably fight for the Reds. Even though they didn't really have a right to power, their new society was still better until Stalin came along.

Revolution is a very, very natural extension of democracy at work, which is why I'm confused about America being afraid to pull out of the mid-east in fear of a revolution happening...

Tyranny by foreign devil, anyone?

Sure, I would! Example? Heroic militants from CNT-FAI during Spanish Civil War. Yesterday there was an annivesary of it's beginning.

How would you define heroic? Certainly, the militancy of the unions caused a civil war rather than a military coup. Som of the anarchists became quite good fighters, like Durreti's column. But they still committed war crimes, political assasinations, splitting up of families, church burning, killing of the rich/well off...sure, the other side had its fair share of civil war atrocitys too, but i'd be carefull with the use of the word heroic, is all...

I'm the 1st to say no it seems. as i've said elsewere, i wont fight, especially not to kill.

If it was a peaceful revolution then sure, but that's not what the question#s about. I'm still trying to decde whether i consider revolutions to be a neccessary evil, i need to read more about them and maybe travel some.

I'm the 1st to say no it seems. as i've said elsewere, i wont fight, especially not to kill.

If it was a peaceful revolution then sure, but that's not what the question#s about. I'm still trying to decde whether i consider revolutions to be a neccessary evil, i need to read more about them and maybe travel some.
Everyone else that thinks like you voted other :p

Yes When the revolution comes to seat me as the new Leader of the world I will be right there fighting beside my loyal and well rewarded subjects.

The way things are going, I suspect that my participation in such an affair will be inevitable, and brought on by some sort of blatant atrocity committed by my government against its own people.

However, I am more as a cartographer than I ever could be as a soldier; as such I suspect I shall be valued as the former rather than the latter. While 'fight' may not be the proper word, I intend to contribute to the largest section I can still stand to call my homeland when the time comes.

If it was a Spanish Civil War situation (coup attempt by fascists, only the radical left fighting back,) you'd find me in the trenches with the anarchists, or most likely like Orwell spending a little time in the field and writing about what was going on.

Talking about Orwell and the Spanish civil war, I did just a little bit of soul searching - and I found out something strange.
Although I am a Pacifist, I still believe that I would go out if there was a revolution. Even more interestingly, I don't even know what such a revolution would have to be about, because I really don't have political beliefs that could be achieved with a violent revolution.

So what about you?
Could you imagine yourself one day seeing something on the news, getting your jacket and your shoes and leaving your house to fight to change your government and society?


I have to confess that I have been in this situation before. In 2000 when Mugabe's government started pushing aside the constitution and rule of law there were many hot heads who argued for revolution, In the Schools and Universities people gathered and there would always be a group who would advocate 'Jambanje' (let us smack someone), but along with more eloquent people than I, I advocated quite and negotiuation, rule of law and pasifist route to democracy. The day before the elections in 2000, we marched through Harare City centre, from the Anglican Cathedral to the Catholic Cathedral (about 5000 people) watched by the presidential guard - very scary. Thinking back, we made a mistake, we should not have hoped the international community would help, we should have taken up arms, now that route is closed.

Not just any revolution. One that is actually has some intelligence AND money put into it. It needs to have clearly valid reasons for fighting. Otherwise its just going to be a chaotic mess.

Harmony sucks. Bring on the revolution.

I would fight for revolution but only if I supported one side and resented the other and only if my chosen side needed me.

I would fight for revolution but only if I supported one side and resented the other and only if my chosen side needed me.

I need good people to fight in my revolution. Who's with me?

I need good people to fight in my revolution. Who's with me?

No thanks, I'm hardly threatened by current government :p

Yes I will fight, in our country the state organize some revolution every year, all governement members have to participate.
We revolt against alien crazy people doing nearly nothing in our country (teachers ambassodors red cross and UN envoys).

The lazy foreigners counter fight that revolt, they have never won.

:(

Talking about Orwell and the Spanish civil war, I did just a little bit of soul searching - and I found out something strange.
Although I am a Pacifist, I still believe that I would go out if there was a revolution. Even more interestingly, I don't even know what such a revolution would have to be about, because I really don't have political beliefs that could be achieved with a violent revolution.

So what about you?
Could you imagine yourself one day seeing something on the news, getting your jacket and your shoes and leaving your house to fight to change your government and society?


I assume that Civil War will break out in Iraq soon. In addition, Israel plans ot invade Gaza and The Axis Powers (US/Britain) are planning to take out Iran and set up a friendly dictatorship. The US will probably have a Civil War because of the situation between the poralized views of the Normal Peaceful people who consider "to each their own", and the corporate business people who spout racist/twisted christian values.... basically...

Socialists Libertarians versus Corporate Fundementalists. If I was a betting man I would say... 2008... Maybe sooner...Once that happens the rush to invade to help the socialist armies will probably means World War three... Because Britain and Japan will likely all join us against China/EU/Russia/India/Muslim Nations... The only two I can't figure will be Canada and Australia... Because of their Commonwealth ties... But their strong socialist populations will likely consider this "fair play" considering the Warcrimes the two nations have committed...

If Canada sides against The US then the US will probably be out of power in California and New England. Probably for weeks... So, lets hope its summer... They will be broadcasting radio into the US trying to locate resistance pockets to assist to the rebellion against the Corporate Police State that oppresses and jails their population, without trial or control, shuttling out targetting activists and political targets to Europe where they can send their message and gather popular resistance against the new fascist state...

Thats my predicition... Send me a message when the first nukes start dropping, and good luck those two fight on the side of the human race... Not the business race... :(

If they gave me cookies and orange juice.

If my government became something I would consider evil in an Orwellian sense, a government against the people, then I would hate it. And if there was an organized force to overturn it and restore the former order, I think I would. I would of course feel anxious and nervous about being in guerilla combat, and I would of course have trouble dealing with all of what was happening. But I think I would do my part.

And I think it would be rather fun.


I believe the declaration of independence states basically that those who have the power to restore freedom are obligated to do so.

If the purpose of the revolution matched my ways of thinking, then I would have to join, otherwise, my views are meaningless.

It is the same in an election. If you don't vote, then you have no place to complain about the government in power who won that election. You had you chance to make your opinion heard, and you blew it by not voting.

Assuming it wasn't rigged (http://ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm) or anything...

I have to confess that I have been in this situation before. In 2000 when Mugabe's government started pushing aside the constitution and rule of law there were many hot heads who argued for revolution, In the Schools and Universities people gathered and there would always be a group who would advocate 'Jambanje' (let us smack someone), but along with more eloquent people than I, I advocated quite and negotiuation, rule of law and pasifist route to democracy. The day before the elections in 2000, we marched through Harare City centre, from the Anglican Cathedral to the Catholic Cathedral (about 5000 people) watched by the presidential guard - very scary. Thinking back, we made a mistake, we should not have hoped the international community would help, we should have taken up arms, now that route is closed.

In America they are moving against Whistleblowers (Wilson) and Well regarded University Professors (Churchill)... It's only a matter of time before they start coming for you... Personally I do hope the American people wake up to the truth before it's too late for us all. :headbang:

No thanks, I'm hardly threatened by current government :p

Don't bet on it will you? It's not a safe gamble to make.

History shows it.

Maybe you'll be the last on the list.....because all those who spoke out for you would have dissapeared from their beds in the night.

When they came for the trade unionists I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the communists I did not speak out because I was not a communist.

When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

When they came for me....there was no-one left to speak out for me.

Not literally fight but I'd do everything else.

I might fight but it would depend on the current government and on the aims of the revolution.

I may take part in revolution against dictatorship, but I hardly imagine situation while I will revolt in democracy.
revolution in democracies may get the tiny win of overthrown the goverment or change some laws, but their win probably will end the democracy, and there aren't many things that are more important than that.

I assume that Civil War will break out in Iraq soon. In addition, Israel plans ot invade Gaza and The Axis Powers (US/Britain) are planning to take out Iran and set up a friendly dictatorship. The US will probably have a Civil War because of the situation between the poralized views of the Normal Peaceful people who consider "to each their own", and the corporate business people who spout racist/twisted christian values.... basically...

Socialists Libertarians versus Corporate Fundementalists. If I was a betting man I would say... 2008... Maybe sooner...Once that happens the rush to invade to help the socialist armies will probably means World War three... Because Britain and Japan will likely all join us against China/EU/Russia/India/Muslim Nations... The only two I can't figure will be Canada and Australia... Because of their Commonwealth ties... But their strong socialist populations will likely consider this "fair play" considering the Warcrimes the two nations have committed...

If Canada sides against The US then the US will probably be out of power in California and New England. Probably for weeks... So, lets hope its summer... They will be broadcasting radio into the US trying to locate resistance pockets to assist to the rebellion against the Corporate Police State that oppresses and jails their population, without trial or control, shuttling out targetting activists and political targets to Europe where they can send their message and gather popular resistance against the new fascist state...

Thats my predicition... Send me a message when the first nukes start dropping, and good luck those two fight on the side of the human race... Not the business race... :(
Doubt it. Doubt it very much. And if Israel intend to invade Gaza, why are they spending nearly two billion dollars removing the settlers? Iraq, fair enough, been expecting it for a while. Will not be a surprise.
As for a revolution, I don't know if I would fight. I would rather serve as a stretcher bearer or medic - admittedly, I have no first aid training, so I mightn't be great. But, if the revolution was right, then yes, I would support it - whether by peaceful process, 'engineering' activities, sabotage, medical, propaganda, or actual fighting, I don't know, it would depend.
@Cabra West: Mind if I ask what revolution? The one up North?

Don't bet on it will you? It's not a safe gamble to make.

History shows it.

Maybe you'll be the last on the list.....because all those who spoke out for you would have dissapeared from their beds in the night.

When they came for the trade unionists I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the communists I did not speak out because I was not a communist.

When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

When they came for me....there was no-one left to speak out for me.

Briliant quote, I have heard it before, but don't know where.

An odd thing happened during the run up to the G8 here in Edinburgh, the last song sung at saturday march (which I got dragged to kicking and screaming) was the song of the International Brigades in Spain, and I was shocked how many people knew the words - my father used to sing it and they came back to me (grew up Northern British Labour/Socialist now a hardline White African Conservative, age and war will do that to you), but I couldn't sing it off the top of my head. There was this little old granny and a few hippies, some disgrunted academics types and a group of kids who probably don't even know that Spain was a dictatorship twenty five years ago. Spain is just another example of good people being kicked in the balls by facists and the democratic world chooses to do nothing because it wasn't the politically prudent or expeedient thing to do, even though they have the resources - yes, yes I know it was a lot more complicated than that but anyway rant over.

I would fight against a communist government without a moments hesitation.

...The US will probably have a Civil War...

Are you twelve? If so, kudos on the writing ability. If not, I feel sorry for you.

In America they are moving against Whistleblowers (Wilson) and Well regarded University Professors (Churchill)... It's only a matter of time before they start coming for you... Personally I do hope the American people wake up to the truth before it's too late for us all. :headbang:

If these are examples of what you consider well regarded and truthful whistleblowers then all I can say is you certainly chose your name correctly.

I can only truly answer that question if there really was a revolution that fit my beliefs, it's easy to say yes, I would fight when there is no revolution.

Briliant quote, I have heard it before, but don't know where.

An odd thing happened during the run up to the G8 here in Edinburgh, the last song sung at saturday march (which I got dragged to kicking and screaming) was the song of the International Brigades in Spain, and I was shocked how many people knew the words - my father used to sing it and they came back to me (grew up Northern British Labour/Socialist now a hardline White African Conservative, age and war will do that to you), but I couldn't sing it off the top of my head. There was this little old granny and a few hippies, some disgrunted academics types and a group of kids who probably don't even know that Spain was a dictatorship twenty five years ago. Spain is just another example of good people being kicked in the balls by facists and the democratic world chooses to do nothing because it wasn't the politically prudent or expeedient thing to do, even though they have the resources - yes, yes I know it was a lot more complicated than that but anyway rant over.


First They Came for the Jews


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

http://www.telisphere.com/~cearley/sean/camps/first.html

He was an anti-Nazi activist in Germany, although as he admits, he became involved too late for many.

The song of the international brigades is a beautiful song....many of the chinese people were reportedly singing it in Tianamen Square in 1989 just before the tanks moved in to crush them all.

Some see that as ironic.....I see it as the song of the people against a government which had betrayed and was now oppressing them....an echo if you like, to remind the government what they were supposed to be, for the people, not against.

I would fight against a communist government without a moments hesitation.


Not a Nazi or fascist one? Or would you have to umm and ahh over it?

Talking about Orwell and the Spanish civil war, I did just a little bit of soul searching - and I found out something strange.
Although I am a Pacifist, I still believe that I would go out if there was a revolution. Even more interestingly, I don't even know what such a revolution would have to be about, because I really don't have political beliefs that could be achieved with a violent revolution.

So what about you?
Could you imagine yourself one day seeing something on the news, getting your jacket and your shoes and leaving your house to fight to change your government and society?

Very well-put.

Though I usually advocate Pacifism in all circumstances, I would participate in a Socialist revolution. I honestly believe that, wisely administered, the Socialist government could benefit all people, and not just the few who can afford to live happily while letting the rest eke out a sub-par living.

First They Came for the Jews


First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Pastor Martin Niemöller

http://www.telisphere.com/~cearley/sean/camps/first.html

He was an anti-Nazi activist in Germany, although as he admits, he became involved too late for many.

The song of the international brigades is a beautiful song....many of the chinese people were reportedly singing it in Tianamen Square in 1989 just before the tanks moved in to crush them all.

Some see that as ironic.....I see it as the song of the people against a government which had betrayed and was now oppressing them....an echo if you like, to remind the government what they were supposed to be, for the people, not against.

That is absolutely brilliant. Would it be alright if I used that in a sig? The "First they came for the Jews", to be exact.

My favorite anti-Nazi quote comes from Erich Kästner, upon witnessing the Hitler Youth burning his novels:
"Those that burn books will someday burn people..."

That is absolutely brilliant. Would it be alright if I used that in a sig? The "First they came for the Jews", to be exact.

Feel free!

Does anyone have the words to the Song of the International Brigades?

Not a Nazi or fascist one? Or would you have to umm and ahh over it?

If they threatened my right to own property or practice my religion in the way I choose, then yes, yes I would fight them.

Though I usually advocate Pacifism in all circumstances, I would participate in a Socialist revolution. I honestly believe that, wisely administered, the Socialist government could benefit all people, and not just the few who can afford to live happily while letting the rest eke out a sub-par living.

And then everybody can be poor, not just a few people. Hooray!

if the right situation occurred i would fight. eg, the yanks buy out our government and try ta make us a US state. or for some reason other than a direct threat to us, the government declares war against australia or another friend nation, then again i would probably revolt against any war that was not justified(ie, unless they attack us or our friend nations(eg, aussie, canada, japan))

Nah... I might join the looting mob, though.

I suppose a lot of people are picturing a French Revolution style uprising, or one of those Pink/Orange/Velvet/Rose revolutions of eastern Europe - which is what I pictured when I was less naive about home. Now, personally I picture some sort of long drawn out bush war, a war of deprivation and resistance. That makes it a harder choice. I suppose it also depends on the country we are talking about and the kind of regeme. P.S has anyoneread Che's book on Guerilla warfare, not the seminal peice of literature I was expecting, rather an out of date manual for jungle warfare. Don't bother.

I assume that Civil War will break out in Iraq soon. In addition, Israel plans ot invade Gaza and The Axis Powers (US/Britain) are planning to take out Iran and set up a friendly dictatorship. The US will probably have a Civil War because of the situation between the poralized views of the Normal Peaceful people who consider "to each their own", and the corporate business people who spout racist/twisted christian values.... basically...

Socialists Libertarians versus Corporate Fundementalists. If I was a betting man I would say... 2008... Maybe sooner...Once that happens the rush to invade to help the socialist armies will probably means World War three... Because Britain and Japan will likely all join us against China/EU/Russia/India/Muslim Nations... The only two I can't figure will be Canada and Australia... Because of their Commonwealth ties... But their strong socialist populations will likely consider this "fair play" considering the Warcrimes the two nations have committed...

If Canada sides against The US then the US will probably be out of power in California and New England. Probably for weeks... So, lets hope its summer... They will be broadcasting radio into the US trying to locate resistance pockets to assist to the rebellion against the Corporate Police State that oppresses and jails their population, without trial or control, shuttling out targetting activists and political targets to Europe where they can send their message and gather popular resistance against the new fascist state...

Thats my predicition... Send me a message when the first nukes start dropping, and good luck those two fight on the side of the human race... Not the business race... :(

reading that drivel is like being high on LSD and drunk at the same time without the chemicals . :rolleyes:
I would not hesitate to be a rebel if my government went against the bill of rights or against the people . Thats what the second ammendment is really about . gimme liberty or give them death !

How would you define heroic? Certainly, the militancy of the unions caused a civil war rather than a military coup. Som of the anarchists became quite good fighters, like Durreti's column. But they still committed war crimes, political assasinations, splitting up of families, church burning, killing of the rich/well off...sure, the other side had its fair share of civil war atrocitys too, but i'd be carefull with the use of the word heroic, is all...
Nothing is perfect and compare 5000 political execution of almost only right-wingers during a WAR (don't forget it!) to those killed by nationalist forces. Don't also forget that many pro-francist priests where executed because they where co-operating with opposing forces. Bask priests wheren't hostile in their actions so they where left alone. I'm a christian but when there would be such situation I would join this revolution - I treat it as self-defense of poor and exploited.

I would support a revolution if it was against a truly oppresive and evil system, but I would drop out in seconds if the tactics employed included the murder of innocent civilians or the use of terror as a weapon against people. I'd probably do my utmost to skip the country in that case.

I would support a revolution if it was against a truly oppresive and evil system, but I would drop out in seconds if the tactics employed included the murder of innocent civilians or the use of terror as a weapon against people. I'd probably do my utmost to skip the country in that case.

Once it has started there is little chance of dropping out, that is the reality, once you throw you lot in it is either exile, the firing squad or an office in Government, little else avalible. Ask the Italian Red brigades living in exile in France, Che [sorry he's dead - proves the point] or Mr Mugabe's underlings.

I would join it if it tried to bring good for the people and for our nation.
I don't want some idiot revolution to spoil my country's repoputation and strenght. So if that happened I would join the couner-revolution.... :D

If they threatened my right to own property or practice my religion in the way I choose, then yes, yes I would fight them.



And what about if it was not your individual right to own property being threatened but someone else's, and someone's else's right to practice religion or different political beliefs, sexual orientations, being persecuted etc.

What then?

if the right situation occurred i would fight. eg, the yanks buy out our government and try ta make us a US state. or for some reason other than a direct threat to us, the government declares war against australia or another friend nation, then again i would probably revolt against any war that was not justified(ie, unless they attack us or our friend nations(eg, aussie, canada, japan))

You don’t count the US among your friends? Interesting.

Does anyone have the words to the Song of the International Brigades?

There are variants here:


http://www.uv.es/~pla/red.net/intaoter.html (Lyrics to The Internationale)

Russia has had enough revolutions... I'll fight for the Government, even though ours is contemptible.

In a revolt against tyranny, I'd fight.

Against a revolt fought for unfounded reasons, I too, would fight.

Ditto. When the government makes it policy to use agression to control the general population, then the Armed Revolution has begun.

When the Armed Nutburgers attack a government that does not fit the above criteria, then it is the nutburgers who must be stopped.

And what about if it was not your individual right to own property being threatened but someone else's, and someone's else's right to practice religion or different political beliefs, sexual orientations, being persecuted etc.

What then?

Then I would fight as well. Everyone deserves the right to own property if they acquire the funds to purchase it, and everyone deserves the right to go about their business without government interference, as long as they are not harming others.

I would, if my parents let me... :p

Probably not. Being in a revolution involves waking up early and walking a lot. Sounds like too much work. But make me an offer and I may consider it.

couldn't you fight for a revolution, and against the revolution at the same time? I mean of course it really dpeneds on how everyone interprets the situation.

example.
I would fight for freedom and democracy, over some mad psychotic dictatorship (which is what I happen to be, a psychotic dictator).

However, if I were in a democratic state and there was a revolution in which some psychotic leader aimed at being placed in charge of the government, I would fight that.

I'm not too sure if I phrased that all that well.

If they threatened my right to own property or practice my religion in the way I choose, then yes, yes I would fight them.



And then everybody can be poor, not just a few people. Hooray!

Kiss my ass, right-winger.

Kiss my ass, right-winger.

Indeed, I wouldn't shed a tear of some capitalist lost their precious property.

I would indeed fight for a revolution.

I would join the side that I would think to be more profitable. I am not an idealist, I seek my own benefit in most things. Those revolutionaries that agree with me would be more likely to get my services because of the gains I would receive simply from joining with those similar to my ideology but I am not some idiot who will risk my life for some cause unless I knew it to be worth the risk.

Libertarian Revolution? Hell, I'd join. It would be the most effecient revolution in the history of man. :p

Nothing is perfect and compare 5000 political execution of almost only right-wingers during a WAR (don't forget it!) to those killed by nationalist forces. Don't also forget that many pro-francist priests where executed because they where co-operating with opposing forces. Bask priests wheren't hostile in their actions so they where left alone. I'm a christian but when there would be such situation I would join this revolution - I treat it as self-defense of poor and exploited.

Well, we're agreed it wasn't perfect and there was cause for war. But there were killings before as well as during the war, and people were terrorised. Familys woudl be split up depending on which side of the battle lines they fell under and conscripted. I know this partly coz i've looked into it, but also my grandad lived in malaga, and when it was captured by Francos forces he was conscripted into the army. i never new this until after he died, in fact i didn't know about the spanish civil war until afterwards, but its shocking to think that my grandad faught on the wrong side. except there were so many sides, and non of them were right, and many soldiers were simply recruits. One of the worst cases for the family was when an uncle and his dad were taken away by the republicans, his they were put in a cell overnight, and his dad was shot in front of him. the uncle was only a boy at teh time, and they released him in the morning, and his hair had gone white. I have no idea how, but somehow it had. Sure, this happened on both sides, but 'we' did it too, and it happened a lot.

The reasons for the war are very complex, but there was a massive inequality between rich and poor, and the different regions in spain. but in a civil war a lot of heartbreaking things happen and just coz you're fighting for your ideals, doesn;t always make things right. I'll say again, in that sort of conflict you have to be very careful about who you label hero. that's why i don't wear che shirts etc, while i respect quite a bit about the man, there's quite a lot i don't like about him, and i'm not comfortable wearing him on my chest.

sorry to make the thread (or at least a post in it) serious, but revolution and civil war are major things. Maybe everyone saying they'd sign on to it would, and maybe in teh end it would bring about positive change, like the just wars i ended up arguing for. But think about what it would actually mean, and involve. and unless the country you live in is in a worse state than what the revolution would put you through, don't hope for one. (i hope for change, but i;m always wary at best of revolution).

To whoever asked that before...I think Cabra West was referring to the GDR in 1989.
That's my best bet...

Hell yeah I would fight in a revolution, but only if it was the last thing to do. For instance (not really a revolution, but could grow into one) with this new Supreme court ruling letting companies pretty much do what they want with your land, if some company such as Ikea may decide to move down onto 610 (main road here in Stafford, VA where every store worth seeing is at), they would have to make room, as other companies such as Walmart, Target, Borders, etc already bulldozed over 300 acres of trees to make a shopping center in between three neighborhoods. The poorest of such neighborhoods would be mine and hence most likely to be taken out. (Actually this might happen since there are only a few big companies that haven't moved down just yet).
But if this company decided to bulldoze the neighborhood, I would first try and find other ways to stop it. Take it to court, protest, and if it didn't work, than I, along with others I could count on, would prepare for a fight, because there is no way in hell anyone will ever claim the right to my home, ever, and I don't give a shit if God himself came down and laid claim, I'd just tell him to blow it out his ass.
But anyway, then, and only after everything else failed, there would be some serious 'civil unrest'. I would go into the kitchen, get together my dad's bottles of scotch, rum, and the other shit he and his friends use to make drinks, and prepare some molotovs, grab a Browning, and prepare to torch some tractors and cop squad cars. And I wouldn't just surrender, there would be a fight, and the cops want to shoot, then they can shoot because I'll be shooting the hell back... But as said, that rising would be the last thing to do, worst case scenario where the government tries to take my home away. It's done it before, when I was a little kid, ruled in favor of some company and my old neighborhood went bye bye, but it won't happen again...

In the words of Rise Against, "And I have an American Dream, but it involves black masks and gasoline..."

But I'd only fight, as in with violence, if the government took away more of my rights and a protest or something didn't bring those rights back.

I would if the government severely violated the Bill of Rights, and if the revolutionaries had a decent chance of doing some damage. If they didn't have a chance, I'd get out of country and try to help as many others out as possible, because I think we'd be of more use alive outside the country than dead inside of it.

I'm rather wary of violence and such, though. I'm not the sort that would rebel at any time just to install my political system of choice. I would be very displeased if innocent blood was shed over something like that.

I would probably join a revolution (not in Britain ATM though), as I'd like to make sure we don't get traitorous Stalin/Mao bastards taking over. I'd make sure Trotsky doesn't get ice picked in the head. ;)
If I were fighting in the Russian Revolution, I'd probably fight for the Reds. Even though they didn't really have a right to power, their new society was still better until Stalin came along.

I think that we would have come into conflict if I were there, too. If not before, then certainly by 1921 when Trotsky sent the Red Army to break the power of the Soviets and steal it for the elite. I don't know, I think you'd do well to pick your friends better: just because Trotsky was killed by usurpers doesn't mean that he wasn't one as well (and, "a thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it" to quote... probably Wilde or something). Let him enjoy his ice-pick, it's just a shame it had to happen far too late to save Russian communism from the Party et al.


Anyway, as to fighting in a revolution, it's difficult to say. Context is everything, you know? If I'd been around in 1871 I dare say I'd have died on the barricades or been put up against a Parisian wall and shot. Likewise in the late 1930s I may well have gone to Spain to shoot at Fascists and argue with Bolshevists.

But that does not mean that I would be absolutely sure to pick-up a petrol bomb and run into the streets to join an insurrection. I do believe in revolution, but I do not believe that starting a big fight, wrecking-up the place, and killing the oppressors is always the best way to do it. In the above examples, I would feel that I was defending an established revolution or resisting a regressive revolution, but the pressures of civil war may not be the best conditions under which to bring about change for the good, I fear.

My revolution would probably see people simply turning their backs on owners -capitalists-, and managers, and on politicians, and looking after their own affairs in a democratic fashion. Only if the police, the army, or other hired thugs moved against such progress would I be more confident of my desire and ability to start physically fighting. It is my belief that past leftist revolutionary movements and the brutal murderous suppression of them has brought just enough progress that next time may not see government thugs gunning down innocent people and shelling cities that have cut their links to the central authority, and that as such there may not be a need for violence on such a scale.

I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone else.

All This Arguing? It's Simple! If i'm sypathetic to the movement, count me in!

as much as i want to say i would fight in a revolution, its much more likely that i would be one of the semi-complacent majority, who, like the frog in the cooking pot, sit there and gradually adjust to each minor change as it comes along (or for the frog, as the water is slowly heated). yeah, each little change isnt bad, but the end result will kill ya (or boil, for the pot-frog).

i think its much more likely that i would end up in a too-late resistance sorta thing.

or maybe i would just move before the whole thing went down. i tend to think war is bad. most likely because the people making the decisions arnt the ones dying. on either side.

Indeed, I wouldn't shed a tear of some capitalist lost their precious property.

I wouldn't shed a tear if the collectives were sold to private industry! :p

Anyway, if there was a revolution whose tenets I believed in and struggle was the only way they could get them, I'd fight. Libertarian capitalist revolution or something like it.

I wouldn't shed a tear if the collectives were sold to private industry! :p

I was thinking of saying something like that, but thought better of it, cool that you did, though.

Anyway, if there was a revolution whose tenets I believed in and struggle was the only way they could get them, I'd fight. Libertarian capitalist revolution or something like it.

Suggestions for rallying cries:

Down with the collectivists! Liberty or death! :D

If my goverment took away the rights of the people to govern themselves then yes I would fight in a revolution. From what I see in my country and other coutries around the world we may see alot of revolutions in the near future.

Even though I believe violent/armed revolution is sometimes necessary and inevitable when fighting against unreformable and inhumane (fascist) dictatorships, I'm not cut out to be a soldier and would therefore assist a revolution I agreed with in some other capacity, like printing literature or recruiting supporters.

I would sum up my stance by borrowing a quote from National Treasure "If there's something wrong, those who have the ability to take action have the responsibility to take action." I hold these words true even if your the only one acting for that one person can make a major difference. Just think for all the Major Revolutions there had to be one person that stood up and said "No thats not the way things should be" that got things in motion. So If you stand up for your beliefs you never know what may happen.

Yes I will toss my life for a revolution, I dont want to be in a era of hell, but I were to fail I would make sure there is nothing left of me except the agony I cause to the men while I still breathed. and I feel sorry for you RhoDerick, Zimbabwe now has no rebel resistance against mugabe, only the US can save you now....

After looking at the results of this poll, I can't help but think a whole lot of people here have absolutely no clue as to what is involved in a violent revolution. There could not have been much thought to this at all as I can tell you right now the real number of those that would would be closer to the number that said they would not.
Do any of you here have any idea just how many people have to die simply because they know of no other way to live? In war, it is mostly soldiers that die and do so with the knowledge that it is a possibility. A successful violent revolution is the ultimate in ugly, dirty and reprehensible actions. Most have no concept of what is involved.

Liverbreath']There could not have been much thought to this at all as I can tell you right now the real number of those that would would be closer to the number that said they would not.
Indeed.
I tried to come to a decision by imagining the most realistic scenario I could think of, and I tried to get others to do the same by adding the "get your jacket, put on your shoes and leave your house" bit.
It's a scary, but interesting thing to think about...

Down with Christianity, I say.

Wouldn't it be a mindfuck, if the "Antichrist" was Christian?

The fundamentalists would follow him, then. Bet you anything that'll be the case. xD

Down with Christianity, I say.

Wouldn't it be a mindfuck, if the "Antichrist" was Christian?

The fundamentalists would follow him, then. Bet you anything that'll be the case. xD

Weeeell, according to the Bible, the rapture will happen before the anti-Christ comes to dominate the Earth.

Weeeell, according to the Bible, the rapture will happen before the anti-Christ comes to dominate the Earth.

The Rapture is a fake idea invented by theologians. People are going to have to fight it out with that nutcase. Give me actual proof of your fake "yay I get off free" scenario, fundamentalist.

Down with Christianity, I say.

Wouldn't it be a mindfuck, if the "Antichrist" was Christian?

The fundamentalists would follow him, then. Bet you anything that'll be the case. xDThe real nutcase fundamentalists like Jim Searcy wouldn't...

I guess I'm just waiting to see what my so called representative government will do that will make me so ashamed to be an American that I will have to make some serious decisions as to what actions to take. I guess I would have to feel that it did not undermine national security for I am loyal to my homeland and I think civil war would would be seen as an oppurtunity for other nations to take advantage of our situation. Both sides would have to agree that everybody else
should stay the fuck out of it and let us handle it ourselves. Besides, there is no such thing as a democratic revolution. :D

Down with Christianity, I say.

Wouldn't it be a mindfuck, if the "Antichrist" was Christian?

The fundamentalists would follow him, then. Bet you anything that'll be the case. xD

No. Down with all politicians who use and manipulate religion of whatever persuasion to further their militaristic goals. I actually am fond of early Chistianity, at least compared with the other monotheistic religions.

I'm not a fighter, I'm a bleeder.

Weeeell, according to the Bible, the rapture will happen before the anti-Christ comes to dominate the Earth.

You're assuming the rapture will take those who think themselves to be Christians. Considering the theological disagreements amongst just fundie Christians themselves, imagine this: if they're right and only one group, with the right beliefs, will be taken up in the rapture, then one group of maybe only a hundred people might get taken up. The police and the FBI will be called in to investigate a mass disappearance of people in a town in Kansas or Nevada or wherever, and others will dismiss them as a suicide cult.

Then the Antichrist will appear and, with powerful rhetoric and a good speaking voice, will convince the most powerful groups in the world to unite under him, as predicted. One of these ways could only be (considering the dominance they have over the politics of the one nation in this world powerful enough to bitch-slap almost any other) to get the Christians on his side. And so, with the "suicide cult" having faded into Waco-like memory, the world will continue along its merry way: Christian groups will wait for the coming of the rapture, atheists will tell them it's never going to happen, and God will laugh at everybody, as He has been since the dawn of time.

(The reason I choose to suggest such a small number of people is that people are weak and varied and schisms and disagreements are many, and the group who get picked to rise to Heaven are likely to be either a bunch of brainwashed fanatics in the same place who all believe exactly the same thing or a few individuals dotted everywhere with unrelated commonalities in their beliefs)

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To answer the original question, of course, I wouldn't fight in a revolution for something I believed in. I'd fight in a revolution only if the threat to myself and those I care about would be greater if I did not fight than if I did - including the chance of success. I don't mean to be selfish; those I care about is a pretty wide-extending net. I may be white but if the BNP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party) gained power I would fight like an angry cat against them, for example. I'm not a man of principle, especially not when faced with the threat of death, save one: loyalty, and that to those who've earned it.

The Rapture is a fake idea invented by theologians. People are going to have to fight it out with that nutcase. Give me actual proof of your fake "yay I get off free" scenario, fundamentalist.

Dang, I wasn’t the one who brought the Bible into this. I was just correcting some perceived Biblical ignorance. Seesh. Are you always this hostile?

New Watenho'](The reason I choose to suggest such a small number of people is that people are weak and varied and schisms and disagreements are many, and the group who get picked to rise to Heaven are likely to be either a bunch of brainwashed fanatics in the same place who all believe exactly the same thing or a few individuals dotted everywhere with unrelated commonalities in their beliefs)

Once again, according to the Bible, the only thing that gets you into heaven is by an absolute belief that Jesus is the savior and that his death on the cross, from which he arose three days later, can absolve you of sin if you accept it. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

I do, I vote against the government at every election!

Once again, according to the Bible, the only thing that gets you into heaven is by an absolute belief that Jesus is the savior and that his death on the cross, from which he arose three days later, can absolve you of sin if you accept it. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

I understand this, and no offence, I do not intend to call you wrong by this, but that's your opinion. The good people over at Fred Phelps (http://www.godhatesfags.com)' place might disagree, however: to them, one cannot, for example, be gay and believe in Christ. The point I wished to make is that many groups claim that people cannot possibly believe in Christ unless they behave in certain ways, and if they turn out to be right (for to act in other ways is apostacy, and I don't think anyone would argue that believing and trust in Jesus whilst praying to an idol for your business to make more money is not Christian) then other Christians may or may not be in trouble, such as those who do not condemn homosexuality as a sin. Forgive the apparent flamebait; my intent is not to start a row. I merely found that site and community as an appropriate example of the kind of disagreement I wish to bring to light.

New Watenho']I understand this, and no offence, I do not intend to call you wrong by this, but that's your opinion. The good people over at Fred Phelps (http://www.godhatesfags.com)' place might disagree, however: to them, one cannot, for example, be gay and believe in Christ. The point I wished to make is that many groups claim that people cannot possibly believe in Christ unless they behave in certain ways, and if they turn out to be right (for to act in other ways is apostacy, and I don't think anyone would argue that believing and trust in Jesus whilst praying to an idol for your business to make more money is not Christian) then other Christians may or may not be in trouble, such as those who do not condemn homosexuality as a sin. Forgive the apparent flamebait; my intent is not to start a row. I merely found that site and community as an appropriate example of the kind of disagreement I wish to bring to light.

Aye. I understand. I go by a literal interpretation of the NT, if that clears anything up. I’m not so sure about the OT, I’ll make a note to ask God about it in heaven someday. Anyway, if one actually follows the teaching of Christ, they will see that although homosexuality is a sin, Jesus never gets angry at the sinner and he only condemns those that reject him. He freely associated with sinners. It was the religious people he couldn’t stand.

Aye. I understand. I go by a literal interpretation of the NT, if that clears anything up. I’m not so sure about the OT, I’ll make a note to ask God about it in heaven someday. Anyway, if one actually follows the teaching of Christ, they will see that although homosexuality is a sin, Jesus never gets angry at the sinner and he only condemns those that reject him. He freely associated with sinners. It was the religious people he couldn’t stand.

*grin* I like you. And yes, ta, it does clear up something; the OT's become a bit worn with time and overuse, methinks. Good to know if the Man Himself was alive and lived in Leeds I'd have had a good chance of getting to know Him.

Actually... I'd really quite like a chat at some point. Might pop to church after work, see if He'll reply this time, though it's been a few years.

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Anyway, we've been off-topic for too long now: back to the revolution!

Anyway, we've been off-topic for too long now: back to the revolution!


Liberty or death! :D

Liberty or death! :D

Never! You can kill me but you'll never free me!

If something happened to the British government which threatened the very survival of Britain and the british people, I would actually fight with weapons.

If it was something alot less then i would still take part, i was part of the movement to blockade all petrol in the United Kingdom, and that worked bloody well

I'm not sure.

If I was put into that situation NOW, and I generally believed a revoloution was needed...

YES.

In a few years time, no matter the circumstances, unlikely.

Revolution is my belief.

Liverbreath']After looking at the results of this poll, I can't help but think a whole lot of people here have absolutely no clue as to what is involved in a violent revolution.

agreed

Liverbreath']After looking at the results of this poll, I can't help but think a whole lot of people here have absolutely no clue as to what is involved in a violent revolution. There could not have been much thought to this at all as I can tell you right now the real number of those that would would be closer to the number that said they would not.
Do any of you here have any idea just how many people have to die simply because they know of no other way to live? In war, it is mostly soldiers that die and do so with the knowledge that it is a possibility. A successful violent revolution is the ultimate in ugly, dirty and reprehensible actions. Most have no concept of what is involved.

Saddly that is very true, I don't think many of the other contributers could picture the home towns/cities looking like Beruit did not too ling ago, or Mogadishu. Then againg, maybe we are entering the age of near bloodless revolutions (don't really beleive that do you?)

Saddly that is very true, I don't think many of the other contributers could picture the home towns/cities looking like Beruit did not too ling ago, or Mogadishu. Then againg, maybe we are entering the age of near bloodless revolutions (don't really beleive that do you?)
Just wait til some people try a bloodless revolution on someone with no intention of relinquishing power, no matter how much international pressure. All hell could break loose then.

Liverbreath']After looking at the results of this poll, I can't help but think a whole lot of people here have absolutely no clue as to what is involved in a violent revolution.
Well, I said "too much walking and waking up early".

To whoever asked that before...I think Cabra West was referring to the GDR in 1989.
That's my best bet...
Bringing down the wall and the like? Strange, I didn't think of that...

@[NS]Liverbreath: Have you experience of a revolution? Not being a smart-ass, just wondering? And yes, I agree with you, revolution is a scary, crazy thing, especially at the beginning. I'd like to think I had the balls to join up, but I don't know, and I never will, unless Ireland turns into a fascist state, or gets invaded - neither of which are likely to happen.

Bringing down the wall and the like? Strange, I didn't think of that...

@[NS]Liverbreath: Have you experience of a revolution? Not being a smart-ass, just wondering? And yes, I agree with you, revolution is a scary, crazy thing, especially at the beginning. I'd like to think I had the balls to join up, but I don't know, and I never will, unless Ireland turns into a fascist state, or gets invaded - neither of which are likely to happen.

Yes, and from a rather unique perspective. I trained people in both how to conduct them and how to defend against them. A violent Revolution from within one's own country is an entirely different situation than if it is invaded from outside. They cannot even be compared in scope or degree of violence. In a successful violent revolution the killing of your opponent is not enough. It must be extended to the former educational system, governmental offices and related industries.

Saddly that is very true, I don't think many of the other contributers could picture the home towns/cities looking like Beruit did not too ling ago, or Mogadishu. Then againg, maybe we are entering the age of near bloodless revolutions (don't really beleive that do you?)

Bloodless Revolution - I love that line. Never been one in history, but they still use the term in history books. Just goes to show, he who wins, writes the history books.

If it was a revolution to destroy communism, I would be in the forefront of the movement.

Couldn't get the exact quote, but I know perfectly well what would transpire during a revolution. I'm willing to die a painful death for what I think is right, especially if that means people that I love, along with the groups that I am fighting for, can be safe.

I've hated those fundamentalists for a long, long time. I've compared what they've said to past leaders, gotten inside their organizations to get more information, and questioned their leaders (peacefully, but pretty extensively) about what their intentions are. What I have found, is extremely disturbing. That said, I think it's time their power over the United States ended.

The next few years are going to be the most terrible in all human history. Don't ask me why I think that, but I do have my ways of figuring out what is going to happen. It's not going to be pleasant, and we're going to have to keep our heads while most things seemingly crumble around us.

Just wait til some people try a bloodless revolution on someone with no intention of relinquishing power, no matter how much international pressure. All hell could break loose then.
Like in Uzbekhistan?

Talking about Orwell and the Spanish civil war, I did just a little bit of soul searching - and I found out something strange.
Although I am a Pacifist, I still believe that I would go out if there was a revolution. Even more interestingly, I don't even know what such a revolution would have to be about, because I really don't have political beliefs that could be achieved with a violent revolution.

So what about you?
Could you imagine yourself one day seeing something on the news, getting your jacket and your shoes and leaving your house to fight to change your government and society?



For the Motherland, comrade! Death to the capitalist pigs!

Couldn't get the exact quote, but I know perfectly well what would transpire during a revolution. I'm willing to die a painful death for what I think is right, especially if that means people that I love, along with the groups that I am fighting for, can be safe.

I've hated those fundamentalists for a long, long time. I've compared what they've said to past leaders, gotten inside their organizations to get more information, and questioned their leaders (peacefully, but pretty extensively) about what their intentions are. What I have found, is extremely disturbing. That said, I think it's time their power over the United States ended.

The next few years are going to be the most terrible in all human history. Don't ask me why I think that, but I do have my ways of figuring out what is going to happen. It's not going to be pleasant, and we're going to have to keep our heads while most things seemingly crumble around us.

To die for what you believe is not as hard as some might think. In a revolution at some point you will become faced with having to re-evaluate which was the greater evil. The government in place or the killing of the families of opponents, the killing of teachers, for the crime of being a teacher, the killing of friends you may have grown up with and their families, and quite possibly the killing of your own family memebers. Few are prepared for having to face these facts and more than a few cannot live with it after the fact.
Choose your revolutions very carefully, because at the very least, any sense of humanity you have will be gone forever.

very nicely put *approves* :)