NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4691865.stm

Comments? Some things I'm being picky on with his latter statements, but overall his remarks seem pretty sensible.

oh come on.. that guy is a freaking gnat.. there is no sense there. Legitimate resistence... :rolleyes: If they want us gone, then they better freaking stabilize their country. Not attack us for helping them.

Also if I see anyone advocating the deaths of US soldiers around here... I swear... three of my friends are over there... don't you ever dare!

oh come on.. that guy is a freaking gnat.. there is no sense there. Legitimate resistence... :rolleyes: If they want us gone, then they better freaking stabilize their country. Not attack us for helping them.

Also if I see anyone advocating the deaths of US soldiers around here... I swear... three of my friends are over there... don't you ever dare!
That's kinda where I was being picky. But due to the Anti-Americanness of the forum, I had to shut my mouth on the details.

oh come on.. that guy is a freaking gnat.. there is no sense there. Legitimate resistence... :rolleyes: If they want us gone, then they better freaking stabilize their country. Not attack us for helping them.

Also if I see anyone advocating the deaths of US soldiers around here... I swear... three of my friends are over there... don't you ever dare!

So if the chinese decided to invade america, we shouldn't resist? After all, they are trying to help us!

oh come on.. that guy is a freaking gnat.. there is no sense there. Legitimate resistence... :rolleyes: If they want us gone, then they better freaking stabilize their country. Not attack us for helping them.

Also if I see anyone advocating the deaths of US soldiers around here... I swear... three of my friends are over there... don't you ever dare!
Hey, and I've had the son of my teacher (and someone who was a good advisor, for the lack of a better word) die in Iraq, please don't start the military card crap.

Hey, and I've had the son of my teacher (and someone who was a good advisor, for the lack of a better word) die in Iraq, please don't start the military card crap.

I'll play whatever damn card I want, especially to correct errors made in this forum by anti-americans.

If you are so concerned...

Then don't defend Sadr.

I'll play whatever damn card I want, especially to correct errors made in this forum by anti-americans.

If you are so concerned...

Then don't defend Sadr.

Omg, you have friends in iraq. That means you're less biased!

I'll play whatever damn card I want, especially to correct errors made in this forum by anti-americans.

If you are so concerned...

Then don't defend Sadr.
Sadr's right, actually. And if you'd listen to what he is saying instead of having this jerk reaction, you'd understand that. Here, let me quote:

"However, speaking in the interview to be broadcast on Monday night, Mr Sadr said he believed "America does not want confrontation".

"So I call upon other parties like the Iraqi army and the Iraqi police to exercise self-restraint with Iraqi people and not be provoked into them or the occupying forces as this isn't in the interest of Iraq," he said.

"I also call on the Iraqi people to exercise restraint and not get enmeshed in the plans of the West or plans of the occupation that wants to provoke them."

Mr Sadr argued that it is the presence of foreign troops which is the cause of Iraq's current problems.


Ever hear of nonviolent protest?

"However, speaking in the interview to be broadcast on Monday night, Mr Sadr said he believed "America does not want confrontation".

"So I call upon other parties like the Iraqi army and the Iraqi police to exercise self-restraint with Iraqi people and not be provoked into them or the occupying forces as this isn't in the interest of Iraq," he said.

"I also call on the Iraqi people to exercise restraint and not get enmeshed in the plans of the West or plans of the occupation that wants to provoke them."

Mr Sadr argued that it is the presence of foreign troops which is the cause of Iraq's current problems.


Ever hear of nonviolent protest?

Mr Sadr was on two places at once. It reminds me of someone who has double-personality disorder. He should make up his mind.

Non-violent protest? For what? They should secure their own damn nation and then we can go peacefully.

So if the chinese decided to invade america, we shouldn't resist? After all, they are trying to help us!

There is a difference between resisting and just randomly blowing the shit out of your own people while they are at a gas station for example.. :rolleyes: ....

That would be like an American suicide bombing a baseball game if our country is occupied........the "invaiders" arnt there...but we blew it up anyways for reasons that seem totally beyond the scope of logical thought.

They should secure their own damn nation and then we can go peacefully.

Or you should just go, period. They'll secure their own nation.

Mr Sadr was on two places at once. It reminds me of someone who has double-personality disorder. He should make up his mind.

Non-violent protest? For what? They should secure their own damn nation and then we can go peacefully.
For US withdrawl. In case you missed it, Sadr asked his people to not be provoked by either the americans or the bombers on their side.

Or you should just go, period. They'll secure their own nation.

Should just go? Like right now? when the iraqi security forces don't have enough power? Wrong.

There is a difference between resisting and just randomly blowing the shit out of your own people while they are at a gas station for example.. :rolleyes: ....

That would be like an American suicide bombing a baseball game if our country is occupied........the "invaiders" arnt there...but we blew it up anyways for reasons that seem totally beyond the scope of logical thought.

Well, perhaps if they were members of a fundamentalist lunatic fringe, one that is predisposed toward devaluing human life that is... other-than-their-own, well - that might not pose such an ethical quandry.

Should just go? Like right now? when the iraqi security forces don't have enough power? Wrong.

Power to do what? Power to keep this sham banana-republic government together?

How long you think the Iraqi gov is going to stay emplaced after the occupation forces finally take a hike? And what's gonna replace it? Strongman? Theocracy?

Might as well make as clean a break as might still be possible.

Power to do what? Power to keep this sham banana-republic government together?

WRONG!

It isn't a sham. The only people who are the sham are those who opposed this war in the first place.



Might as well make as clean a break as might still be possible.

No.

That's tellin' me!

That's tellin' me!

I'm not one who wishes failure... I'm not one who wishes the destruction of Iraq.. I'm not the one who wishes the destruction of the middle east.. I'm one who wants to give the Iraqi government a chance.

There is a difference between resisting and just randomly blowing the shit out of your own people while they are at a gas station for example...
Actually the majority of attacks are against US Military or against Iraqi Military and Police.
In an American context, I would compare it more to you trying to blow up those guys who are going to fight you in the name of new Chinese America.

I'm not one who wishes failure... I'm not one who wishes the destruction of Iraq.. I'm not the one who wishes the destruction of the middle east.. I'm one who wants to give the Iraqi government a chance.
mmm, the broad spectrum of black and white

Well, perhaps if they members of a fundamentalist lunatic fringe, one that is predisposed toward devaluing human life that is... other-than-their-own, well - that might not pose such an ethical quandry.


Okay i can understand that, since ive lived in the middle east, your life is worth about exactly nothing...but anyways, yeah they blow up stuff at random sometimes (for example the gas station)...what are they strategically gaining from that?

gas is easy to get in the middle east...you could blow up 100 gas stations in baghdad and there will still be 10,000 more to go...

Actually the majority of attacks are against US Military or against Iraqi Military and Police.
In an American context, I would compare it more to you trying to blow up those guys who are going to fight you in the name of new Chinese America.

No, actually a majority of them are against Iraqi civilians...

No, actually a majority of them are against Iraqi civilians...
Can you prove that, or are you just going by the casualty figures?
Because that would probably best be described as "collateral damage" as seems to happen all the time in war.

Can you prove that, or are you just going by the casualty figures?
Because that would probably best be described as "collateral damage" as seems to happen all the time in war.

Well let me restate myself. Most of the recent attacks seem to be directed at civilians.

that's just what you hear from the American media, because they want to make that image.

US soldiers arn't special, they arn't some how better then any other soldiers, it is not any more wrong to kill a US soldier then a Chinese or Iraqi or militia. Get down off your freakin' high horse. You have no fact, you have no reason to back up your cause. Open your mind, look at things differently, don't be such a douche.

Well let me restate myself. Most of the recent attacks seem to be directed at civilians.
Is that most of all attacks, or most of all attacks that are being reported in the media?

I see, so your world view can't handle a little questioning, you just run when someone thinks differently. I wish death on no one, my point is that everyone is equal, so don't be such a self-rightous ass

This message has been deleted by Mesatecala. Reason: can't be bothered arguing with anti-americans who want death to us and iraqi soldiers.. and who think it is right. Get a kick

Who said anything about "right"? LOL

But seriously, no-one said anything like what you gave as a reason for deleting your own post.

I guess sense isn't actually growing in Iraq, it's just being transferred from this thread to Baghdad...

oh come on.. that guy is a freaking gnat.. there is no sense there. Legitimate resistance... :rolleyes: If they want us gone, then they better freaking stabilize their country. Not attack us for helping them.

Also if I see anyone advocating the deaths of US soldiers around here... I swear... three of my friends are over there... don't you ever dare!you are a n00b here aren't you?

dont Challenge the General forum like that.

posting: "...I swear...don't you ever dare!"..is going to get you the reply you don't wanna hear...its like reverse psychology.

g'night everyone, time for me to retire

I need a bath, oh wait you blew up my tub, along with the rest of my house while trying to give me help that I did not ask for.

Just a general reply:

The problem is, is that you can't force Democracy of any sort on people. It doesn't work. Either they want it, or they don't want it. There is some gray space with half and half isms, but I'm talking any sort of Representation in Government.

The thing is, if its forced on people, and they don't want it, then they have the power to get rid of it. If they want a dictatorship or a kingdom, they can vote for it, something that might happen in Iraq after the US pulls out its troops.

So, what the hell, let 'em. Self determination of the people declared that they don't want the vote, let them live with what they want, and damn those who would force them otherwise - AKA, the US. (By the by, I'm a hypernationalist US citizen.)

Its this reason, you other USA Citizens, that people arn't liking us right now. Its the same reason why alot of people don't like right wing Christians who all want us in Church on Sunday worshiping Jesus, and will make us attend by force if they could. I'll leave that thought dangling out there.

Second item: The war is over. We won. Turns out your the big hero. I get to drive the float. And Simmons here, is IN CHARGE OF CONFETTIE.

...sorry, Red vs Blue quote.

As I was saying, the war is over. Meaning, that those civilian casualties? Can't be ascribed to war. You can't set them aside and say, "Attrition in war. What can you do?".

Should the US have gone into Iraq? Yes.
Should the US have gone into Iraq for the stated reasons? No.
Should the US force Democracy down the throats of the Iraqis? IMO, yes.
Should the US keep troops there to make certain that they keep Democracy against their will, after they've tried it out and decided they didn't want it? No.

Did we accomplish our goals in Iraq? Nope.

So if the chinese decided to invade america, we shouldn't resist? After all, they are trying to help us!

Resistance? More like terrorists.

If Chinese were to invade America, do you think the Americans would target their own people?

Those who were co-operating or neutral to the chinese? You're damn right they would ...

Those who were co-operating or neutral to the chinese? You're damn right they would ...

So since when did the Iraqi children became puppets of TEH EVIL AMERICAS!

They are not resistance or freedom fighters; they are terrorists.

If the Iraqi people did not want democracy, 70% of them wouldn't have showed up for the polls.

Canada City']
They are not resistance or freedom fighters; they are terrorists.

That's what you think, but maybe you should see what this war means to them, instead of being arrogant and stubborn, open your mind to different possibilities!

Canada City']Resistance? More like terrorists.

If Chinese were to invade America, do you think the Americans would target their own people?

Most of the attacks are on US militray, or Iraqi military or police targets.

Also, the resistance is hardly one monolthic blob. There are hundreds of seperate militias, from terrorists out to hurt the West however they can, to criminals just using it as a method to power, to patriots defending their country from a forgien aggressor, to people who pick up a gun to defend their own families and neibhorhoods from death at the hands of the Americans. It's very complex, really.

Just a general reply:

The problem is, is that you can't force Democracy of any sort on people. It doesn't work. Either they want it, or they don't want it. There is some gray space with half and half isms, but I'm talking any sort of Representation in Government.

Oh, they want democracy, the reason they are fighting back is because they don't belive the US will give them real democracy, and I agree, that the US will just turn them into a US economic colony. Economic imperialism. We don't need to technically control the country forever anymore, we just have to have our corperations control their economy, have their economy dependant on us. That is what's ganna happen in Iraq.

Example: Instead of giving the contracts to rebuild Iraq (which is woefully behind schedual, partly because of the resistance attacks, but mostly because it's not a top priority of ours) to able and willing Iraqi firms, thus stimulating the local economy, giving people jobs, helping the country get back on it's feet, we gave the contracts to American companies (notably Haliburton, which Cheny is tachniaclly still an employee of, they are simply defering his pay 'till his term is over). American companies control the Itaqi economy, American companies will be the ones who is always in control of the oil production.

oh come on.. that guy is a freaking gnat.. there is no sense there. Legitimate resistence... :rolleyes: If they want us gone, then they better freaking stabilize their country. Not attack us for helping them.

Ok, I have to say this... ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKING MIND? Whew, that had to be said.

Umm, you're the ones who destabilized the region..lol I don't care the country, no matter how strong or weak, there will always be nationalism. They are a legitimate resistance in my opinion. I would fight to the death for my beliefs and country too.

In a perfect world there would be no war, but as long as there is war, people will fight for what they believe in. I certainly don't advocate for anyone's death, American/Iraqi or otherwise. But you reap what you sow dude! Don't get mad at the anti-war folks, get mad at the government, that's where your anger belongs!

is there anyone who actually read the article who has a problem with it?

i read it and it seemed utterly correct to me. i hope he follows through on what he said there.

Non-violent protest? For what? They should secure their own damn nation and then we can go peacefully.As far as Iraq is concerned before the american invasion they were secure. Under tryannical rule but secure.

As far as Iraq is concerned before the american invasion they were secure. Under tryannical rule but secure.

I'm sure all those people who have been gassed or killed by Saddam's sons agree with you.


Most of the attacks are on US militray, or Iraqi military or police targets.


So they are attacking the Iraqi military...

wait, thats their own damn people!

Let's not forgot the kids, the women, and those that got killed trying to vote.

The thing people have to realize is that you cannot make broad generalizations when you look at a situation like this. You cant simply say all the resistance is bad or all is good. there are different groups within the resistance, some of them just hate the americans and want to kill them, some are misguided and truely beleive that fighting the americans will save them, and there are some that resist through more proper channels.

The same is true for the american side, some soldiers are there because they beleive they fight evil, some are there to protect their home and family, and some are like the twisted individuals that abused the prisoners to get their jollies.

it's not just a case of all one side being evil and all one side being good and a lot of the time not even a case of just two sides.

Canada City']I'm sure all those people who have been gassed or killed by Saddam's sons agree with you.



So they are attacking the Iraqi military...

wait, thats their own damn people!

Let's not forgot the kids, the women, and those that got killed trying to vote.

They are killing the coalition, and those that aid the coalition. There is also collateral damage. Their targets are those who aid the coalition, or are the coalition. They do aim to kill their own, the ones that help their enemies. Yes, children, etc die. Those are collateral damage. America has the same thing, which includes many children, etc. It doesnt mean america targeted them.

Canada City']I'm sure all those people who have been gassed or killed by Saddam's sons agree with you.All the people that were gassed or killed by Saddam's sons were mostly Kurds. The people of Iraq still hate the Kurds today and neither American presence nor democracy in Iraq will change that.

:headbang:

This has gotten silly.

The Iraqi government is never going to stabilize its own nation when they have us to do it for them. Why be the bad guys, when they can let our troops take the fall? Why stick out their own necks, when we're so willing to take their place at the chopping-block?

They will take control of their own nation ONLY once they have to, when we set a firm withdrawal date. Until then, it's simply too convenient to let us do their dirty work.