NationStates Jolt Archive

Sent to me in an email:

"When Catherine Lawes' husband, Lewis, became the warden on Sing Sing
prison in 1921, she was a young mother of three daughters. Everybody
warned her never to step foot inside the walls. But she didn't listen
to them. When the first prison basketball game was held, in she went,
three girls in tow, and took a seat in the bleachers with the inmates.

"When she heard that one convicted murderer was blind,
she taught him Braille so he could read. Upon learning of inmates
who were hearing impaired, she studied sign language
so they could communicate. For sixteen years Catherine Lawes
softened the hard hearts of the men of Sing Sing.

"The prisoners knew something was wrong when Lewis Lawes didn't report
to work. Quickly the word spread that Catherine had been killed in a
car accident. The following day as the acting warden took his early
morning walk, he noticed a large gathering at the main gate. Every
prisoner pressed against the fence. Eyes awash with tears. Faces
solemn. No one spoke or moved.

"The warden made a remarkable decision. “All right, men, you can go.
Just be sure to check in tonight.” These were America's hardest
criminals. But the warden unlocked the gate for them, and they walked
without escort or guard to the home of Catherine Lawes to pay their
last respects. And to a man, each one returned."

Never underestimate the power of compassion.

Is any human beyond redemption?Yes -- Colodia.

The rest of you, I'll forgive. :D


EDIT: Oh darn it, that wasn't the topic.... :(

No human is beyond redemption. The only problem is with how to determine redemption and to make people become good. Ultimately I think that justice must either try to redeem those punished or get rid of them.

That's beautiful. Where do you get these random stories, Eutrusca?

Sent to me in an email...
Never underestimate the power of compassion.

Blech. I hate those lameass emails. What a boring sack of shit.

Of course people are beyond "redemption" -- if we must use such a pathetic word... What the hell do you think psychopaths and serial rapists are, misguided individuals?

Maybe if we pray hard enough to Jesus, they'll get better!

Of course people are beyond "redemption" -- if we must use such a pathetic word... What the hell do you think psychopaths and serial rapists are, misguided individuals?


Well, with enough drugs we can do anything! So all we have to do in order to deal with these people is pump them full of drugs so that way they will be too high to kill and have sex or even do both at the same time.

I think that with technological progress that means of controlling human action will become more effective and could be used to redeem people, this does not mean that the cost of redeeming some people will ever be worth it.

No human is beyond redemption. The only problem is with how to determine redemption and to make people become good.
No one can "determine redemption" or "make someone become good." Only the individual can do that.

Is any human beyond redemption?

Yes!

No one can "determine redemption" or "make someone become good." Only the individual can do that.

Obviously you do not believe in brainwashing or psychological evaluation. Brainwashing is making someone believe as you do using psychological techniques, it attempts to force a person into an ideology and if the ideology is that of good then it is forcing them to be good.

Determining redemption is harder. I would imagine that it would require clever use of psychological testing in order to determine a person who is cooperative on the surface over someone who has been completely indoctrinated.

I think there're a good number of people beyond redemption.

Obviously you do not believe in brainwashing or psychological evaluation. Brainwashing is making someone believe as you do using psychological techniques, it attempts to force a person into an ideology and if the ideology is that of good then it is forcing them to be good.
Absolutely not. Though, with some humans, I wonder....

Determining redemption is harder. I would imagine that it would require clever use of psychological testing in order to determine a person who is cooperative on the surface over someone who has been completely indoctrinated.
Or... it would require only god.

Well, with enough drugs we can do anything! So all we have to do in order to deal with these people is pump them full of drugs so that way they will be too high to kill and have sex or even do both at the same time.

I think that with technological progress that means of controlling human action will become more effective and could be used to redeem people, this does not mean that the cost of redeeming some people will ever be worth it.


I think that's a great idea! Rather than have career criminals and murderers in jail, why not give them daily estrogen, along with massive amounts of RX drugs! They'd be too doped out to commit crimes! :D

Absolutely not. Though, with some humans, I wonder....

Or... it would require only god.

Well, the god thing is a bit hard for me to disagree with. After all, we do not have the technology to determine the exact thoughts of a human being and perhaps never will get that technology(differing structures of human minds causes problems).

Brainwashing can have some measure of success, possibly with enough technology the threat created by the individual towards society can be reduced to the level of normalcy but that technology may not be or may never be in our possession. I do believe that brainwashing is possible for everyone so long as the technology exists and that we are willing to pay for it. The fact that those two setbacks are rather huge is part of why we do not try to redeem everyone(that along with the fact we probably have not spent enough time focusing on this and that the techniques we know could be inhumane)

That's beautiful. Where do you get these random stories, Eutrusca?
Some are from my own personal experience, some are emailed to me, some I pick up in other forums or in chat, etc.

I agree that story was great. I thought some on here might enjoy that. :)

Blech. I hate those lameass emails. What a boring sack of shit.

Of course people are beyond "redemption" -- if we must use such a pathetic word... What the hell do you think psychopaths and serial rapists are, misguided individuals?

Maybe if we pray hard enough to Jesus, they'll get better!
Do you ever have anything positive and uplifting and kind to say? Every post you have made in response to posts I have made has been either a rant or a diatribe. Perhaps you just have some sort of problem with me?

What is wrong with the word "redemption?" It's a perfectly good word, IMHO, and is used by lots of people, not all of whom consider themselves "Christian."

I think there're a good number of people beyond redemption.
I agree with you, on a practical level. Still there remains the hope that most, or at least some, are not.

I think that's a great idea! Rather than have career criminals and murderers in jail, why not give them daily estrogen, along with massive amounts of RX drugs! They'd be too doped out to commit crimes! :D

Of course, that would also help the economy! As well we could tape these super drugged up criminals on reallity TV shows as they struggle with various tasks and suffer from all of the side effects of their drugs! :D

I got news for you, brainwashing isn't "redemption," no matter how you define it. I'm aware that it's a loaded word, and I'm aware that it's a happy sappy crappy word, but that doesn't mean it can be contorted to such extremes.

Removing someone's will power and making them do something good does not equal redemption. In fact, if such extremes are necessary, it only goes to show how beyond redemption they are!

Besides, given the problem with overpopulation, it's best just to summarily kill (or lock up, given the economic drain necessary for an execution) serial felons instead of wasting time brainwashing them.

I think that's a great idea! Rather than have career criminals and murderers in jail, why not give them daily estrogen, along with massive amounts of RX drugs! They'd be too doped out to commit crimes! :D
Perhaps, but then we'd have to pay someone to take care of them so they didn't go trippin' down the freeways. :(

I think you'll find criminals, in general, are much different now than in the 20s. Criminals are much "harder" in this day and age.

And yes, I think there are some that are beyond redemption...by their own choice.

I got news for you, brainwashing isn't "redemption," no matter how you define it. I'm aware that it's a loaded word, and I'm aware that it's a happy sappy crappy word, but that doesn't mean it can be contorted to such extremes.

Removing someone's will power and making them do something good does not equal redemption. In fact, if such extremes are necessary, it only goes to show how beyond redemption they are!

Besides, given the problem with overpopulation, it's best just to summarily kill (or lock up, given the economic drain necessary for an execution) serial felons instead of wasting time brainwashing them.

Redemption is
To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences

Brainwashing is
1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs

If brainwashing saves one from sinfulness then it is redemption. Therefore my usage was correct. Also, I never claimed that trying to redeem everyone was economically viable. I have even claimed it wasn't viable by saying
"this does not mean that the cost of redeeming some people will ever be worth it."

I think the far better question is whether redemption is possible for any of us.

(I'm not challenging God; that's for another thread. I'm merely considering the human condition.)

This will probably happen ONCE, but I'll say something positive about a post Eutrusca made. The topic title wasn't a real question. It is a touching story, and, if it's true, it does show good actions on all sides. Regardless of there being or not humans beyond redemption, the point is THESE weren't beyond it. ;)

Redemption is
To save from a state of sinfulness and its consequences

Brainwashing is
1. Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs

If brainwashing saves one from sinfulness then it is redemption. Therefore my usage was correct. Also, I never claimed that trying to redeem everyone was economically viable. I have even claimed it wasn't viable by saying
"this does not mean that the cost of redeeming some people will ever be worth it."
Sigh.

Redemption: The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed.

Rdeem: To set free; rescue or ransom; to restore the honor, worth, or reputation of.

This will probably happen ONCE, but I'll say something positive about a post Eutrusca made. The topic title wasn't a real question. It is a touching story, and, if it's true, it does show good actions on all sides. Regardless of there being or not humans beyond redemption, the point is THESE weren't beyond it. ;)
Thanks ... um ... I think. :confused:

Of course, that would also help the economy! As well we could tape these super drugged up criminals on reallity TV shows as they struggle with various tasks and suffer from all of the side effects of their drugs! :D
My Brad! A true Capitalist.

Removing someone's will power and making them do something good does not equal redemption. In fact, if such extremes are necessary, it only goes to show how beyond redemption they are!


Have you ever read "A Clockwork Orange"? Same general idea



To Eutrusca, thank you for sharing that story with us, it was just what I needed right then :)

Have you ever read "A Clockwork Orange"? Same general idea

That movie fucking scarred me. That guy totally deserved it, and worse.
I hate Stanley Kubrick, his movies are way too fucking long. Ooh, ice cream! *runs off*

the book is even better. It's good you saw the movie first, because the book is entirly writen in his strange slang. It's good you kinda know the events before hand.

Anyway, I recomend it.

Have you ever read "A Clockwork Orange"? Same general idea



To Eutrusca, thank you for sharing that story with us, it was just what I needed right then :)
Good! I'm pleased that at least SOMEone got something out of it. :)

Sigh.

Redemption: The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed.

Rdeem: To set free; rescue or ransom; to restore the honor, worth, or reputation of.

Oops I did skip a step in my definition. I put the definition of redeem under redemption. I did not list all 9 definitions in my dictionary. I just listed the one that i was using. So there is no need to sigh because redemption and brainwashing are not mutually exclusive.

Good! I'm pleased that at least SOMEone got something out of it. :)

Some of us did.

Here's an interesting one for you, can you forgive Osama Bin Laden for all he's done, doing and will probably continue to do? Could we honestly say that we'd RATHER see him redeem himself and atone, over simply trying him or killing him for his crimes?

Its easy to forgive people who haven't affected YOU directly. Its so much more difficult to forgive your father's killer. Those who do it get no respect unless they're already famous for their compassion. Its like a hollow victory against hate.

Am I the only one who suspects that this story was made up by some screenplay writers normally working for Disney?

Some of us did.

Here's an interesting one for you, can you forgive Osama Bin Laden for all he's done, doing and will probably continue to do? Could we honestly say that we'd RATHER see him redeem himself and atone, over simply trying him or killing him for his crimes?

Its easy to forgive people who haven't affected YOU directly. Its so much more difficult to forgive your father's killer. Those who do it get no respect unless they're already famous for their compassion. Its like a hollow victory against hate.

I would certainly hope that I could forgive my father's killer. Whenever I hear of something like that, I have tremdous respect for the forgiver.

I don't concider any victory against hate to be hallow, however it may feel.

Some are from my own personal experience, some are emailed to me, some I pick up in other forums or in chat, etc.

I agree that story was great. I thought some on here might enjoy that. :)
I enjoyed it!! Thanks for sharing Eutrusca. :)

well, it's getting a bit late here (3:30 am), so I fear it is time for me to retire. This was one of the more rewarding threads to read tonight.

Sleep tight, everyone

Id say anyone that accepts blindly what they read in emails would be border line beyond redemption.

If you go by the religious meaning of redemption, then according to most holy books, if not all, then all men are capable of redemption.
If you go by the general meaning of the word for certain prisoners, then some prisoners can NEVER be redeemed. (Unless there is a 5 cent deposit on them, and then only to a maximum of 24 prisoners in 24hours per prison.) Seriously, it's useless trying to rehabilitate some prisoners, they are just too psychotic to be released into the public ever again.

Am I the only one who suspects that this story was made up by some screenplay writers normally working for Disney?
I agree. Pixar would never have come up with something so original.

(just kidding, I love Pixar)

Few humans are beyond redemption, but some are. Some have such twisted ideologies that they can't see reason. I've been reading the new MAO book, and he's definitely beyond redemption - in the sense that no person could ever redeem him or make him change his ways. Well, 70 million dead Chinese couldn't.

Redemption is a slippery thing. How do you judge when a person has redeemed themselves?

Depends on the definition.
Many people are not capable of redeeming themselves, and some do not want to, but some are capable.