NationStates Jolt Archive

Obviously this poll, with a ten-option maximum, makes me want to cry. Choosing in my opinion who has made the biggest impact, or biggest name, in a Western standpoint, was very tough. If your choice wasn't listed, please state who you would vote for, and why. And try to remember to pick someone who has had the most IMMENSE impact.

If I could make the poll give one hundred options, I would.

Oh, one more thing. In terms of leader, I mean either a ruler or a military leader. Please don't include people like Henry Ford or Brad Pitt.

[Brief personal definitions of the choices]

Napoleon Bonaparte - An active participant in the French Revolution, rose to power, conquered and occupied much of Continental Europe, was defeated following the invasion of Russia, returned from exile, and was banished again. Revolutionized military organization and mobility.

Charlemagne - An engimatic character, united much of modern France and Germany into a Christian state, and founded some of the first instances of feudal hierarchy and strata.

Adolf Hitler - Son of a civil servant of Austria, participated in the First World War, became the leader of Germany, transformed German society, waged war against Continental Europe, was defeated following the long Soviet counterattack and the combined Allied invasions of France and Italy.

George Washington - Most notable American Revolutionary general, was named the first President, etc.

Oliver Cromwell - Led Parliamentary forces against the English Crown, prevailed, set the stage for the eventual constitutional monarchy.

Vladimir Lenin - Led communist forces to overthrow the Russian monarchy and tried to install the world's first communist state.

Mao Zedong - Led communist forces in China to eventually usurp Nationalist forces, making China a communist state, and set out to transform Chinese society.

Simon Bolivar - The Great Liberator of South America, he liberated the northern provinces of South America, and unsuccessfully tried to unite them into a 'Gran Colombia'.

Romulus - Legendary founder of Rome. Whether or not you believe the legend, associate Romulus with the group that founded Rome.

Lycurgus - Legendary founder of Sparta, the world's first purely military state, and encourager of the first practices of eugenics. Sparta overturned Greek society, fighting against Athens on numerous occassions, before collapsing due to population decline.

Is this a vote for sheer ability, or do we include personal faults and ethical considerations too?

Piperia, this is all about what YOU think on an individual level :) Include whatever criteria you wish, I just asked to not name people who were not rulers or military leaders. For example, as criteria, you could use impact, effectiveness, glory, oppression, etc. It's all up to you.

Basil the Bulgar-Slayer, for having the coolest name.

Then I'd go with Alexander the Great. Spread Hellenism, and was simply an unstoppable force at the command of his army.

Good choice of Alexander. I wonder what the world would have been like if Alexander lived to the age of 60 or so back then, and held the extended Macedonian Empire together.

Romulus. We wouldn't have police, fire departments, or concrete without the Romans. ;)

Augustus Caesar, far more deserving than Romulus. Any fool can found a city, it takes a genius to save an empire. OK so he disbanded the first fire service but he did start his own later.

His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular, Big Daddy, King of Scotland, Idi Amin Dada Oumee!

Charlemagne, no contest.
He founded Western culture, he united the tribes that today are the French, the Germans, the Italians...and his church even had influence in Britain.

I'd have to pick either Alexander the Great or Julius Cesar, but they're not on the list so I guess I'll have to pick Romulus.

Captain Kirk was easily the best leader the Human Race ever had, even if he only commanded a single starship.

Heh. Captain Kirk rules.

Captain Kirk was easily the best leader the Human Race ever had, even if he only commanded a single starship.

:rolleyes:






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Captain Picard is obviously the superior officer.

Greatest World Leader:

Past: Timur Lenk (Tamerlane)- Built an empire spanning from Central Asia to Southwest Asia, including parts of India. Defeated Delphi Sultanate's Army of 100,000 men with little over 12,000 elite soldiers with superior weaponry.

Present: Osama Bin Laden- Has won the international hide and go seek award 4 years in a row, and 2005 is looking to be his 5th.

World's stupidest leaders:

Past: Emperor Hirohito (sp?)- Fucked around with the U.S. and eventually got his country nuked, if it weren't for a surrender message delivered shortly after the second nuking, Hirohito would have been fried by radiation himself.

Present: Kim Jong II (Name?)- Has single handedly pissed off every major western nation to date and is thinking about pissing off South Korea and Japan.

Lol. China has had the world's largest population for over a thousand years now, and all we get is ONE option. Where is Shi Huangdi? Han Gaozu? Tang Taizong? Tang Shang? Wu Zetian? Dowager Cixi? Genghis Khan? Deng Xiaoping? Blah blah blah.

Lol. China has had the world's largest population for over a thousand years now, and all we get is ONE option. Where is Shi Huangdi? Han Gaozu? Tang Taizong? Tang Shang? Wu Zetian? Dowager Cixi? Genghis Khan? Deng Xiaoping? Blah blah blah.

How about because the vast majority of people here are westerners who don't have a clue about chinese history?

In any case, it's a daft poll, because Romulus probably never existed, and the English option is Cromwell, who isn't even in the top 10 English leaders, let alone world leaders.

Lol. China has had the world's largest population for over a thousand years now, and all we get is ONE option. Where is Shi Huangdi? Han Gaozu? Tang Taizong? Tang Shang? Wu Zetian? Dowager Cixi? Genghis Khan? Deng Xiaoping? Blah blah blah.

Heh? According to wikipedia, Ghenhis Khan was Mongolian, not Chinese... :confused:

Heh? According to wikipedia, Ghenhis Khan was Mongolian, not Chinese... :confused:

Mongolia is part of China. :p

Captain Picard is obviously the superior officer.
Psh. He just had Data. Kirk did great considering he only had a crappy Vulcan to come up with his technobabble.

Mongolia is part of China.
:eek: Holy s*, my AP World Teacher would have a heart attack reading that.

:eek: Holy s*, my AP World Teacher would have a heart attack reading that.

Well, accept the hard fact.

Mongolia is part of China. :p

Well, according to the wikipedia article on mongolia:

Independence Date: from China - July 11, 1921

Jesus Christ of course!

Mongolia is part of China. :p
:D
I have a Chinese friend who would quite ferociously disagree with you. He says that Mongolia should be taken over by China, but he vehemently resists any attempt to see both the Mongolian (Yuan?) and Manchurian (no idea...) dynasties as anything else than foreign occupations.
He reckons traditional China ended with the Ming Dynasty...

Mongolia is part of China. :p

I would continue this discussion, but alas, my laziness has taken over, and I don't have enough will power to click on the wiki link in my favorites menu...

Well, accept the hard fact.
I sat through two hour lectures about something called Jurchens, and learning the proper pronunciation of Genghis Khan (Chingis Khan). Mongolia is just a BIT different than China.

I have a Chinese friend who would quite ferociously disagree with you. He says that Mongolia should be taken over by China, but he vehemently resists any attempt to see both the Mongolian (Yuan?) and Manchurian (no idea...) dynasties as anything else than foreign occupations.
He reckons traditional China ended with the Ming Dynasty...
Dynaties of China. Or the major ones, as I was taught.
Sung to the tune of Do Ray mie, or however it is spelled:
Shang, Zhou, Qin, Han
Shang, Zhou, Qin, Han
Sui, Tang, Song
Sui, Tang, Song
Yuan, Ming, Qing, Republic
Yuan, Ming, Qing, Republic
Mao Zedong
Mao Zedong.

The Qing is the Manchu dynasty, and the Yuan are indeed Mongol.

I bet most Han Chinese would have fits reading that as well.

I may have to go with Muhammed, founder of Islam, for my pick as most influential leader. (I'd pick Jesus, but He never led armies or anything. Plus then you get into the whole debate about the influence of Paul, and that always just gives everyone headaches.)

Stop quoting Wikipedia. Quote Dragons Baypedia: Mongolia has been, and always will be, part of the nation called China.

Well, according to the wikipedia article on mongolia:

Independence Date: from China - July 11, 1921
they are perhaps referring to OUTER mongolia which is independant rather than INNER mongolia which is a semi-autonomous region of china

Hmmm, such an interesting question!

However, I must first take issue with some of the selections offered. Lycurgus of Sparta? Ruler of a tiny city-state that the "world" hardly knew existed? Sure, he may have had influence on later history, by influencing Plato (see his "Republic"), and later totalitarian movements, but in his own time he hardly qualified as a "world" leader. The reigning Pharaoh or King of Babylon in his day would have considered him a petty princeling, and even their empires were tiny on a "world" scale.

Among the Greek city-states, Pericles, the famed statesman of Athens had far more influence on subsequent history. My personal favorite would be Themistocles (sp?), the Athenian admiral who defeated a vastly superior Persian fleet at Themopolae, saving democracy and Western civilization* from being strangled in the cradle.

Romulus? A mythical character. Besides, what about his brother Remus? ;)

Charlemagne? He had a sizeable empire, but it crumbled soon after his death, and I don't see how it ever represented a "world" power.

Simon Bolivar? From the description, it sounds like he was a great man (I am not well-versed on South American history), but still, how much influence has he had on, say, South Africa? Though, in fairness to him, he probably did a lot to bring down European colonialism.

IMO, in order to define someone as a "world" leader, he or she would have to have had significant influence over a sizeable slice of the globe in his/her lifetime, and (especially for ancient leaders, who could not reach very much of the world in their own time) lasting influence on history.

Jesus/Paul** obviously loom(s) large in our world today, but he/they had only very local influence in his/their time. Moses is in the same category. A giant in our world today (all three of the monotheistic religions trace their roots to the writings attributed to him), a small-time tribal leader (or mythological figure) in his own time.

Julius Caesar or Octavian/Augustus would seem to be obvious choices, since they both ruled a large empire (Rome) and helped shape its future, and that of the Western world. However, I think it's pretty obvious that Rome was on it's way to becoming an Empire anyway, and if they hadn't been born, it would have been somebody like Pompey or Crassus, and the world would not be that different today, IMO.

Alexander the Great conquered a truly huge empire in a mere three years, founded several major cities (all of them named "Alexandria" if I recall correctly), and attempted to form a "universal" culture by combining Hellenic and Persian elements. The extensive trade routes he opened, the cultural exchange his empire encouraged (especially in the Alexandria founded in Egypt), the military tactics he innovated all strongly influenced both his own world, and ours.

Temujin/Genghis Khan conquered the largest land empire in history, after having united a bunch of fierce, squabbling tribes into a cohesive, highly-organized fighting force based on meritocracy rather than family descent (as Mongol society had been before him). He invented modern "3rd Generation" maneuver warfare, and his campaigns are studied closely to this day.

Regarding the "Mongolia is part of China" argument, I invited the Great Khan over for tea and asked him about this. When I mentioned the idea, tea sprayed from his mouth and nose.

"BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!" (he really has quite a belly laugh) "Mongolia a part of China? No, my friend! We trampled those city-dwellers beneath the hooves of our horses! We heard the lamentation of their women, and took their daughters to our tents! We made flutes from their bones, and drinking-bowls from their skulls! No, nooo, China is a part of Mongolia!"

However, as Dragons Bay has correctly pointed out, China has been the world's largest civilization for a long, long time. They invented the rocket, firearms, the abacus, the printing press (though I've also heard that one attributed to ancient Korea), and had large, well-designed seagoing ships well before Europeans did. Not to mention a high culture with extremely sophisticated artwork, music, and philosophy.

So, a Chinese leader definitely deserves a place on the list. Lamentably, I don't know the achievements of those Dragons Bay listed, so I have to pick one with whom I am somewhat familiar: Qeng Ho (sp?), an admiral in the early 1400's as I recall (Western calendar--the Chinese date would have a bigger number :) ) who assembled a huge trading and exploration fleet that sailed into the Pacific and to the east coast of Africa. They might even have landed on the west coast of the Americas.

Unfortunately for China, (as I recall) there was a change of Emperors, and the new one shut down the exploration project and basically cut China off from the world. If Qeng Ho and others after him had been allowed to continue exploration, we'd all be speaking Mandarin, there would be twenty threads on NS about "Confucius vs. Lao Tzu", and maybe one entitled "Jesus *who?*" (No offense to Christians meant here, I just think that if the Age of Exploration had been a Chinese, instead of European event, Western ideas and culture would have had far less influence on the world)

On to more modern "world leaders." I chose Washington from the list, because in addition to influence I also wanted to select for positive contributions. Here's a few I think should have been on the list:

Queen Elizabeth I: During her reign, England went from being a minor power, to defeating the Spanish Armada, to becoming a major seafaring nation well on the way to founding the "Empire on which the sun never set." Furthermore, she patronized folks like William Shakespeare, helping make England a cultural powerhouse as well.

Queen Victoria: Led England to its height as the first global superpower. An entire era is named "the Victorian age" in her honor.

Mahatma Gandhi: Demonstrated the viability of nonviolent resistance, making possible the Civil Rights and Peace movements in the US, as well as their cousins in other nations. "Be the change you want to see in the world."

John F. Kennedy: A mix of good and bad, but he generally created a culture of optimism and vigor in the U.S. (and by extension, the West), culminating in the Moon missions, a feat of manned space exploration yet to be excelled.

Pope John Paul II and Lech Walesa (sp?): Helped bring down the Soviet Empire.

Ronald Reagan: Love him or hate him, he did renew optimism and a sense of purpose in America and Western Europe, confronted and ultimately defeated Soviet expansionism, yet was also willing and able to make peace with Gorbachev and Russia.

Mikhail Gorbachev: Though his attempt to reform the Soviet Union failed, glasnost and perestroika did a lot to end that brutal regime. The peace he made with the U.S. ended (so far...) the threat of global nuclear annihilation.



*Gandhi once remarked that Western civilization would be a good idea... >evil grin<

**It is hard to dispute that the teachings of Paul, not Jesus, are the ideological core of Christianity. Paul's teachings take up over half of the New Testament, while the disconnected scraps of parable and sermon attributed to Jesus would make a small Epistle if put together. The importance of Jesus in Christianity is not in his teachings, but in his myth, i.e. his virgin birth as a divine son/wielding of demigod powers/death-and-resurrection (a fairly common mythopoetic story at the time, also attributed in whole or in part to gods and heroes like Osiris, Tammuz, Mithras, Apollos of Tyana, etc.). After all, how many Christians take seriously teachings of Jesus like "If a man asks you for your cloak, give him your shirt as well," the anarcho-communism he and his disciples practiced, etc.?

Dude, what about Alexander the Great!?

I chose people who I felt played the greatest direct role in history, based upon their direct rule of nations, as in, actual leaders, and people who led their military at some point or another. Romulus is a legend, there is no proof he was real, nor proof he was unreal. Remus was killed by Romulus in the legend, so I would hardly count him as someone who played a role in history. As for Lycurgus, he founded a social order that brought down Athens, and set the stage for the Macedonian rise to power through Peloponnesian and Attican weakness. He also initated the first practices of eugenics, something avidly copied in warped applied sciences by the National Socialists.

Jesus and Paul? They're as legendary as Romulus. And neither Jesus nor Paul ruled over a nation or military.

As for Simon Bolivar, I included him because he played a major role in encouraging further Latin American independence movements. His operations effectively destroyed Spanish power in South America, which touched off revolts elsewhere in the Spanish Americas.

Alexander the Great conquered an already-declining empire, which after his death, wasn't a true Greek empire. It was split up between his successive generals, and most partitions east of Asia Minor and Egypt collapsed.

Charlemagne contributed to Western society by converting his subjects to Christianity, setting the stage for much of Western history and dominant religious attitudes.

Charlemagne? He had a sizeable empire, but it crumbled soon after his death, and I don't see how it ever represented a "world" power.
Then do some research. It was in fact pretty much the only power in Europe.
Even more importantly
a) His empire was split up between his sons, and those bits turned later into France, Burgundy/Elsaß-Lothringen and Germany. That is a fair bit of influence.
b) He introduced a proper catholic church organisation (which is a fairly influential thing to do)
c) He more or less founded writing and doing chronicles in his empire.
d) Many of the cities he started are still standing. (Aachen was his capital)
e) He is generally the founder of Western Europe's nations, culture and languages.

I had absolutely no shame in selecting Hitler because of his lasting influence on the world. Without his fall, neither the US nor the USSR could become superpowers.