NationStates Jolt Archive

The state of Israel – which, the last time I checked, was both a foreign and a sovereign nation – wants the American taxpayers to cough up $2.2 billion in addition to our regular $3 billion-or-so annual subsidy to pay for the withdrawal from Gaza.

Unless the American people raise hell about this, it's a done deal. In Washington, whatever Israel wants, Israel gets. Nevertheless, there are several reasons why the American people should rebel at the latest brazen attack on our treasury by Israel and its American supporters.

First, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided unilaterally to withdraw from Gaza. This was in lieu of following the president's peace plan, which Sharon has ignored from the very beginning. Where is it written, on stone or parchment or paper, that the head of a foreign government can decide to do something unilaterally and automatically send the bill to the American taxpayers? We will derive no benefits at all from the withdrawal.

Furthermore, Sharon's adviser spilled the beans in an Israeli newspaper interview. The withdrawal from Gaza is not part of any peace plan. It was just an excuse to put off serious peace negotiations. Sharon will remove about 8,000 settlers from Gaza who are a pain in the government's rear end anyway, shut down four tiny settlements on the West Bank, and that's it. As Sharon's adviser admitted, there won't be any serious negotiations with the Palestinians until they "turn into Finns."
--Charley Reese.
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=6683

We will derive no benefits at all from the withdrawal.


Actually, if it hastens the peace process you may well benefit by not having to send so much aid in the future. It remains to be seen, of course.

The Israelis put them there, the Israelis should pay for them to take them out of there. I support Israel, but don't want to pay to correct a foolish military venture that they did themselves. I think we should give them aid, but shouldn't pay for their mistakes. $250k a settler is a lot, too!

Actually, if it hastens the peace process you may well benefit by not having to send so much aid in the future. It remains to be seen, of course.Giving money to the Israel Gov will not stop the Bloodbath...

how do I know?
because we been giving them Million$$ for decades and that has only increased the violence.

We can do that now? Cool! I want a new car, and I demand the American government pays for it! And I won't even buy an American car!



Yeah, that is pretty dumb. Can't blame 'em for trying though, can you?

We can do that now? Cool! I want a new car, and I demand the American government pays for it! And I won't even buy an American car!
I want a 2006 Lexus :D

Wouldn't it jsut be cheaper to carpet bomb all of israel

Ihatevacations']Wouldn't it jsut be cheaper to carpet bomb all of israel
I have a wonderful idea on how to reduce both ours and the Russians nuclear stockpile!

Ihatevacations']Wouldn't it jsut be cheaper to carpet bomb all of israel

You know something I hate. I hope more than anything in the world the old saying about reaping what we sow proves to be based in truth. At least where you are concerned. You truely give me the impression that turds can talk.

Meh, it's the same as Bush's "making the world a safer place for Americans" argument. Melting every square inch of land outside of the U.S. into glass would also "make the world a safer place for Americans".

The state of Israel – which, the last time I checked, was both a foreign and a sovereign nation – wants the American taxpayers to cough up $2.2 billion in addition to our regular $3 billion-or-so annual subsidy to pay for the withdrawal from Gaza.first, you only give us $2 billion per year which, in the last time I check, gave by USA with statement that make us buy in all that money american weaponary. the factories of the US army benefit from that at least as much as Israel (which had budget of more than $200 billion!!).
second, USA check every Israeli weapons deal with other countries. the lastest times they canceled our agreements with china, and made us lose $10 billion directly and more than $20 billion in damages for china.
I will not say that we didn't get benfits from the friendship with USA, but we more hostages of USA than foriegn soverign state.
Unless the American people raise hell about this, it's a done deal. In Washington, whatever Israel wants, Israel gets. Nevertheless, there are several reasons why the American people should rebel at the latest brazen attack on our treasury by Israel and its American supporters.you can't really believe it. when bush made his peace plan israel send dozens of request for change in the plan (especially ones about the need that palastine will fought the terrorists), and nothing was changed. when israel had problem with abu-mazen that didn't fought the terror enough, USA didn't listen.
USA is far from Israel slaves.
First, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided unilaterally to withdraw from Gaza. This was in lieu of following the president's peace plan, which Sharon has ignored from the very beginning. Where is it written, on stone or parchment or paper, that the head of a foreign government can decide to do something unilaterally and automatically send the bill to the American taxpayers? We will derive no benefits at all from the withdrawal.only it had bush agreement. the world is for the pullout from gaza strip, and it had many outcomes that may be hard for israel to stand alone. it isn't much to ask, after all.

Furthermore, Sharon's adviser spilled the beans in an Israeli newspaper interview. The withdrawal from Gaza is not part of any peace plan. It was just an excuse to put off serious peace negotiations. Sharon will remove about 8,000 settlers from Gaza who are a pain in the government's rear end anyway, shut down four tiny settlements on the West Bank, and that's it. As Sharon's adviser admitted, there won't be any serious negotiations with the Palestinians until they "turn into Finns."
--Charley Reese.that is only his opinion. for now noone in Israel know what will be in the day after the pullout.
I know about 4 possible scenarios right now:
1)the radical right scenario- the pullout will became civilian war, when hundreds of thousands citizens will came to the settelments and fought the IDF soldiers. after it will finish there will be great negative migrationof the losers side that wouldn't want to live in the countrey anymore, and maybe even divideness of two countries.
2)the moderate right scenario(shron's advisor scenario)- the pullout will sucssed with many hard photos. sharon will use it to show the world that he hardly win 10,000 setellers, and it will be much harder to make the same with all the west bank settelments. he will get support on the matter from majority of israel civilians, and will hope the world will think the same for same years.
3)the moderate scenario (the goverment policy)- after the pullout gaza strip will get full independence, egypt will get control on the border between sinai and gaza strip and could insert some policemen to ensure the border. palastine may build the seaport, industrial center, and such things as their plans tell, and her dependence of israel will low to the minimum. this state will be the test state for palastinan independent country they will get in peace agreement if they will succsed to deal with the terror in gaza strip.
4)the left scenario- after the pullout, the world will demand to see more surrenders, and the sides will be back at the nagotaion table, while the pullout from gaza strip will be israeli signature for good will, that may give advantages in the nagotation.

first, you only give us $2 billion per year which, in the last time I check, gave by USA with statement that make us buy in all that money american weaponary. the factories of the US army benefit from that at least as much as Israel (which had budget of more than $200 billion!!).
Erm, think more carefully about this...

The US gives Israel billions to spend on weapons. Israel must buy only American weapons. But whether the weapons are American or not, it is American money in the first place.

Essentially, the US is giving Israel billions of dollars of free stuff, at the taxpayer's expense.

So, there you have it. Israel is spending other people's money. I can't believe that in a country as tax-averse as America, people still tolerate this. The subsidy should have been cut long ago, Israel isn't a poor country, it has a massive defence industry of its own, it can clearly build or buy anything it needs.

Erm, think more carefully about this...

The US gives Israel billions to spend on weapons. Israel must buy only American weapons. But whether the weapons are American or not, it is American money in the first place.

Essentially, the US is giving Israel billions of dollars of free stuff, at the taxpayer's expense.true, but as I said it is in the interests of USA. the israeli army industry loose much more money because USA, and in addition to the canceled agreements with china, I will remind you the "Kfir"- full israeli builded plane that stay on the factories because USA demand it, while crush israeli agreement with north korea, that somehow get full copy of the plane without payement, and they selled it to the arabs. if you think about it, thanks to USA the arabs has planes that israel made, and we don't. we even didn't get money for damages.
at least for now, usa didn't canceled the agreements with india, although they probably do it soon.
So, there you have it. Israel is spending other people's money. I can't believe that in a country as tax-averse as America, people still tolerate this. The subsidy should have been cut long ago, Israel isn't a poor country, it has a massive defence industry of its own, it can clearly build or buy anything it needs.fine, USA will cancelled the small payment they gave to israel, and in exchange they will canceled the payment to egypt, jordan, saudia and their other arab friend, too. that will be fairness.

Yet again OceanDrive, you fail to provide a source. Judging from the article, its either the KKK or JewWatch. Either provide a link to a source, or expect people to think its a hysterical article from The Onion.

fine, USA will cancelled the small payment they gave to israel, and in exchange they will canceled the payment to egypt, jordan, saudia and their other arab friend, too. that will be fairness.
I agree...good god, if they closed all their overseas bases too, there would be peace on earth. :D

I have a wonderful idea on how to reduce both ours and the Russians nuclear stockpile!

Ah. Disposal of nuclear armaments in the traditional DemonLordEnigma style. :)

I agree...good god, if they closed all their overseas bases too, there would be peace on earth. :Dwell, I think that peace on the earth is behind USA reach, no matter what they do. just as the terror-free world, or the democratic world they try to get.

Never mind, found it. Charley Reese is "The Truth Seeker" *snicker* *giggle*

Of course, in his truth seeking, he's decided America (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=380) is the cause (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=372) of the worlds (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2568) problems. (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=2424)

Ihatevacations']Wouldn't it just be cheaper to carpet bomb all of Israel
that would finally bring a lot of peace to the ME..

but for moral reasons..I say..we must give 3 months notice...so they have all have time to go back to East-Europe, Russia, Germany, US, EU, Africa , Asia.

...or wherever they came from.

and for the very few living there before the 1967 historical error...they should get a small compensation...(but not a quarter million!!)

Yet again OceanDrive, you fail to provide a source. Judging from the article, its either the KKK or JewWatch. Either provide a link to a source, or expect people to think its a hysterical article from The Onion.feel free to asume whatever you want.

(WWW) its a free world..

My assumption was of course correct, the guys a raving nutcase. Honestly, one would think there isn't enough anti-Israel BS in the mainstream media that you have to go digging around in this nutcases little corner of the world.

fine, USA will cancelled the small payment they gave to israel, and in exchange they will canceled the payment to egypt, jordan, saudia and their other arab friend, too. that will be fairness.I am 100% for it.

all welfare money to the Middle East should be stopeed...untill they learn to live in peace.

only emergency disaster releif aid is aceptable.

my taxes should never go to help extend decades long wars...

that would finally bring a lot of peace to the ME..

but for moral reasons..I say..we must give 3 months notice...so they have all have time to go back to East-Europe, Russia, Germany, US, EU, Africa , Asia.

...or wherever they came from.

and for the very few living there before the 1967 historical error...they should get a small compensation...(but not a quarter million!!)
well thats an ugly post. good to get your feelings out on the table eh?


i have no problem with paying for security when those settlers are moved.

i have no problem with paying for security when those settlers are moved.
thats all good...

you are entitled to agree with Israels welfare money...and I am entitled to not agree.

.
You know what would be great?

That Foreign welfare was a personal choice... like with Private Jewish foundations...

and that the people who don't want their taxes to contribute to middle east violence...can put their money in schools, Hospitals...or Tusnami victims...or Hurrican victims...or AIDS...or African starved Children.

that would finally bring a lot of peace to the ME..

but for moral reasons..I say..we must give 3 months notice...so they have all have time to go back to East-Europe, Russia, Germany, US, EU, Africa , Asia.

...or wherever they came from.

and for the very few living there before the 1967 historical error...they should get a small compensation...(but not a quarter million!!)
what are you talking about? Israel was founded in 48'. 67' was when the westbank and gaza and jeruselum were taken over. There were a buttload of Jews living in Israel by 67. Getting rid of all the jews in Israel is a pure fantastical notion barring an all out Iranian nuclear strike which would surely eliminate the palestinians too.

I figure once the rapidly growing Palestinian population reaches a certain point, Israel Palestine will simply become a binational state. The Israelis carved up west bank way too much with settlements to ever pull out. The palestinians already make up a majority of the total population of Israel and the occupied territories. Their demographic advantages with their fast population growth will work to their favor over the long term. If you look at the maps of the settlements it seems unlikely that it will ever be feasible to create to viable states out of such a small territory.

what are you talking about? Israel was founded in 48'. 67' was when ..my mistake

The state of Israel – which, the last time I checked, was both a foreign and a sovereign nation – wants the American taxpayers to cough up $2.2 billion in addition to our regular $3 billion-or-so annual subsidy to pay for the withdrawal from Gaza.

{Not a fan of Israel or taxes, however, the withdrawal of settlers from Gaza is an important step in the peace process. We should add some to it and build schools and hospitals.}

Unless the American people raise hell about this, it's a done deal. In Washington, whatever Israel wants, Israel gets. Nevertheless, there are several reasons why the American people should rebel at the latest brazen attack on our treasury by Israel and its American supporters.

{The American need to raise hell about the level of taxes period. Money spent for the defense of the country should be all the Fed. needs or should be allowed. All other expenditures should be State matters.}

First, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon decided unilaterally to withdraw from Gaza. This was in lieu of following the president's peace plan, which Sharon has ignored from the very beginning. Where is it written, on stone or parchment or paper, that the head of a foreign government can decide to do something unilaterally and automatically send the bill to the American taxpayers? We will derive no benefits at all from the withdrawal.

{They are requesting help, not billing the USA.}

Furthermore, Sharon's adviser spilled the beans in an Israeli newspaper interview. The withdrawal from Gaza is not part of any peace plan. It was just an excuse to put off serious peace negotiations. Sharon will remove about 8,000 settlers from Gaza who are a pain in the government's rear end anyway, shut down four tiny settlements on the West Bank, and that's it. As Sharon's adviser admitted, there won't be any serious negotiations with the Palestinians until they "turn into Finns."
--Charley Reese.
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=6683

{8,000 settlers is more than 0 without negotiations.}

The nation of Israel was given its charter and allowed to exist through an action by the Britts mainly.The majority of nations either agreed or failed to disagree strongly. Both they and the Palestinians need to stop claiming Jehovah and Allah rights to the land and work for a legal, peaceful settlement.
It seems neither Jehovah nor Allah are able to make good on their promises, so the world governments need to assist in settling the dispute. :)

I figure once the rapidly growing Palestinian population reaches a certain point, Israel Palestine will simply become a binational state. The Israelis carved up west bank way too much with settlements to ever pull out. The palestinians already make up a majority of the total population of Israel and the occupied territories. Their demographic advantages with their fast population growth will work to their favor over the long term. If you look at the maps of the settlements it seems unlikely that it will ever be feasible to create to viable states out of such a small territory.you wrong. jewish still had half milion majority if you concider all the polpulace in the area. without the palastinian populace in the areas outside 67's borders, jews are more than 80% of the populace.
the jews will be minority in 5-10 years and than we either be aparthaid state as sout africa or binational state. both are the worst options (apart from total war which only one side will stand at the end).
that is the reason the israeli left try to get peace agreement which will establish two states for to nations on the base of 67's borders. the left understood that jewish democratic country in the land of Israel, is much more important than country on the whole area of Israel.

It's good that Israel is withdrawing from Gaza, but it's worse that they expect us to pay for a lot of it. I guess they're just our dog, feed 'em once and they expect more, feed em again and they expect to get fed whenever they want. The U.S. must get out of Israel's affairs, even if it means not helping them get out of Palestinian territory. But what were they doing there in the first place? Could it be the Zionists high up in the American government controlling US relations with Israel? America must get out of Israel's affairs if there is ever going to be a shred of hope for peace in the area.

you wrong. jewish still had half milion majority if you concider all the polpulace in the area. without the palastinian populace in the areas outside 67's borders, jews are more than 80% of the populace.
the jews will be minority in 5-10 years and than we either be aparthaid state as sout africa or binational state. both are the worst options (apart from total war which only one side will stand at the end).
that is the reason the israeli left try to get peace agreement which will establish two states for to nations on the base of 67's borders. the left understood that jewish democratic country in the land of Israel, is much more important than country on the whole area of Israel.
Ok whatever if I am wrong it is a moot point some studies claim there is already a Palestinian majorirty some claim there is still is a jewish majority for a short time anyway. I just have a hard time believing the Israeli's could ever leave the west bank even if the government decided it wanted too. I mean just look at all their settlements, it is like 400,000 people. This is why I think a binational state is pretty much inevitable.

http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/wall/jpeg/colonies.jpg

Ok whatever if I am wrong it is a moot point some studies claim there is already a Palestinian majorirty some claim there is still is a jewish majority for a short time anyway. I just have a hard time believing the Israeli's could ever leave the west bank even if the government decided it wanted too. I mean just look at all their settlements, it is like 400,000 people. This is why I think a binational state is pretty much inevitable.

http://www.nad-plo.org/maps/wall/jpeg/colonies.jpg250,000 is the current number, but they make sound of 2 millions. majority of them are located at 3 or 4 big cities that Israel hope will stay at peace agreement because they will be impossible to leave (militarilly, economically, and because of the israeli public opinion).
I think the others are less than 100,000 but they are much more radicals. the only way to evacuate them will be in long-term move that will start secretly from the lonely settlements and will get inside, but even that will probably end in civilians war. they are the ones that dream on great Israel (amost all the area of the middle east). they will not had problems to shot israeli soldier. if all the things they did now are because of 8,000 settlers, this may be the worst nightmare of Israel.


still, binational nation isn't sollution. Israel is the only jewish country in the world. we can't dismiss it because some crazy settlers. the jewish nation hope 2000 years to country, and fought for it in every area more than 100 years. all the dreams of the jewish end in one thing. one little independent jewish country. we never thought about empire, just country. but we can't get less than this one little wish.

It was just an excuse to put off serious peace negotiations. Sharon will remove about 8,000 settlers from Gaza who are a pain in the government's rear end anyway, shut down four tiny settlements on the West Bank, and that's it. As Sharon's adviser admitted, there won't be any serious negotiations with the Palestinians until they "turn into Finns."
--Charley Reese.
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=6683
Bwahahahahaha. Until both the Fatah and Hamas and their ideals are gone from Gaza and the West Bank, any peace plan is doomed to failure. End of story. Since the Israelis are far from fucking stupid, why should they continue to try seriously for peace(note, in this case peace seems to mean allowing the palistinians to continue attacking Israel while Israel does not retailiate. This is easily evident by the content of the news stories. Ceasefires are not broken until Israel retailiates, when everywhere else the ceasefire is broken by whoever fires the first shot.)

...any peace plan is doomed to failure. End of story. Since the Israelis are far from fucking stupid, why should they continue to try seriously for peace?Since the US Politicians are far from fucking stupid, why should we continue to give you (billions)welfare...if you don't seriously want peace?

...wait :headbang: ...looks like US Politicians are fucking stupid after all.

BTW ideals about a free Palestinean state are not going to vanish just because you keep killing them.

Everytime I see the news about Israeli incursions, I see German Leopard 2 tanks, not Abrams...
Is it just that I can't distinguish them from one another, or does Israel do more than just buy American stuff?

Let me lay your mind to rest Leonstein, what you're seeing is neither. Israel surprisingly enough, uses its own tanks, the Merkava.

Maybe the US should spend $250,000 per US k-12 student instead...or give all K-12 teachers a $250,000 raise...

BTW ideals about a free Palestinean state are not going to vanish just because you keep killing them.
I will not get into the fact "them" are mostly terrorists, but you right. the ideals will stay.
most of the israelis already understood that free palastinian state will be someday, but there is different opinions about the "little" facts (borders, imigration of refugees to Israel, destruction of the terror organizations).
for now, Israel give may things without such thing in the other side, and many israelis want to see the end of the terror before they will give more. although, personally I think we shouldn't let the radicals at both sides decide if we will had peace or not, it isn't hard to understand requests for end of the violence before the peace.
in addition, the palastinians can't enjoy the benefits of peace agreement without act about their terrorists.

Maybe the US should spend $250,000 per US k-12 student instead...or give all K-12 teachers a $250,000 raise...


Or throw the $$ right in the garbage. We give Israel billions, and they still find the time to spy on the US. How much "drought relief" do they need? When the land and the neighbors are that barren and hostile, with no change in sight, maybe its time to move?

Or throw the $$ right in the garbage. We give Israel billions, and they still find the time to spy on the US.
I don't even believe you're claiming some sort of wounded pride because Israel spies on the US. Let me lay your mind to rest, the US spies on Israel, the US spies on England, the US spies on the UN. Why? Simple, everybody spies on everybody. This is how things work. Honestly, Blair was caught tapping Annan's phones and this much of a fuss wasn't raised. I feel you're desperately grasping onto whatever you can get, and the above point, is nothing.

When the land and the neighbors are that barren and hostile, with no change in sight, maybe its time to move?
Wow.... just wow.... I'm finding it hard to believe you meant that as a serious post. Move? I.e bring in giant cranes and lift Tel Aviv into the middle of the Caribbean? You know, RL isn't NS. You can't just get a fleet of military-grade choppers to lift your nation into the middle of the nearest region. My respect for you as a debater just dropped dramatically after this post.

still, binational nation isn't sollution. Israel is the only jewish country in the world. we can't dismiss it because some crazy settlers. the jewish nation hope 2000 years to country, and fought for it in every area more than 100 years. all the dreams of the jewish end in one thing. one little independent jewish country. we never thought about empire, just country. but we can't get less than this one little wish.
Last I heard Chicago has more jews than Israel. No other nation gets their own nation SOLELY because they have a special religion. OMG, we are jews we deserve a nation. Fuck you, move to chicago or go get some european country to lend you a few thousand square miles and declare yourself "judea city"

You know, RL isn't NS. You can't just get a fleet of military-grade choppers to lift your nation into the middle of the nearest region. My respect for you as a debater just dropped dramatically after this post.
NS is RL...so I don't know what you're talking about...

Move? I.e bring in giant cranes and lift Tel Aviv into the middle of the Caribbean? You know, RL isn't NS. You can't just get a fleet of military-grade choppers to lift your nation into the middle of the nearest region. My respect for you as a debater just dropped dramatically after this post.
I think...

when he says "move"...he means in like calling the ReMax agent and Moving to a more peaceful neighborhood(continent in your case)...or calling the Landlord to advice him you are not going to renew the lease...and then making reservations with U-haul.

when you "move" ...its very unusual to get a few choppers to lift the whole house...not where I come from anyways.

I don't even believe you're claiming some sort of wounded pride because Israel spies on the US. Let me lay your mind to rest, the US spies on Israel, the US spies on England, the US spies on the UN. Why? Simple, everybody spies on everybody. This is how things work. Honestly, Blair was caught tapping Annan's phones and this much of a fuss wasn't raised. I feel you're desperately grasping onto whatever you can get, and the above point, is nothing.


Wow.... just wow.... I'm finding it hard to believe you meant that as a serious post. Move? I.e bring in giant cranes and lift Tel Aviv into the middle of the Caribbean? You know, RL isn't NS. You can't just get a fleet of military-grade choppers to lift your nation into the middle of the nearest region. My respect for you as a debater just dropped dramatically after this post.


Maybe because you are taking it personally. How long can a country remain artificially propped up ? It makes you wonder what Israel has on the US that we continue to pour dollars and support for decades. A practice that leaves us and our interests in peril. With what return?

I dont pretend to have reasonanable solution to this problem, but as someone who pays a lot of tax, I do resent part of my share going to this ,when it could better be used for almost anything here in my country.

Dont take this personally. Try to imagine the situation from my point of view.

I'm sorry if your respect dropped, but maybe you could consider your respect for me on this matter doesnt carry a lot of weight.

I think...

when he says "move"...he means in like calling the ReMax agent and Moving to a more peaceful neighborhood(continent in your case)...or calling the Landlord to advice him you are not going to renew the lease...and the making reservations with U-haul.

when you "move" ...its very unusual to get a few choppers to lift the whole house...not where I come from anyways.


Sanctaphrax is well aware of what I mean when I say move, but is personally offended by my remarks and his anger shows in his post.

Sanctaphrax- know that my remark wasnt designed to attack you, more just my frustration with the situation. My opinions on the matter are just frustration though-the situation doesnt effect my on the same scale it does you, so I understand your passion.

People often say that the Americans should cut/end their subsidies to Israel as a leverage on Israel to make peace with the Palestinians.

I think therefore that this latest call by Israel for more money from the USA for them to pull out of Gaza is a political move by Ariel Sharon. He wants to be able to answer the argument I outlined with "American money pays for us to further peace" because he will claim that his unilateral pull out from Gaza is in the interests of peace.

Reality states clearly that he must not be allowed to make that claim. Ariel Sharon's government has no intention of making the real steps towards peace. The Americans should refuse this request and seriously consider reducing their exisiting subsidy until the Israeli government takes serious measures aimed at allowing a viable state of Palestine to exist.

first, you only give us $2 billion per year which, in the last time I check, gave by USA with statement that make us buy in all that money american weaponary. the factories of the US army benefit from that at least as much as Israel (which had budget of more than $200 billion!!).
second, USA check every Israeli weapons deal with other countries. the lastest times they canceled our agreements with china, and made us lose $10 billion directly and more than $20 billion in damages for china.
I will not say that we didn't get benfits from the friendship with USA, but we more hostages of USA than foriegn soverign state.
you can't really believe it. when bush made his peace plan israel send dozens of request for change in the plan (especially ones about the need that palastine will fought the terrorists), and nothing was changed. when israel had problem with abu-mazen that didn't fought the terror enough, USA didn't listen.
USA is far from Israel slaves.
only it had bush agreement. the world is for the pullout from gaza strip, and it had many outcomes that may be hard for israel to stand alone. it isn't much to ask, after all.

that is only his opinion. for now noone in Israel know what will be in the day after the pullout.
I know about 4 possible scenarios right now:
1)the radical right scenario- the pullout will became civilian war, when hundreds of thousands citizens will came to the settelments and fought the IDF soldiers. after it will finish there will be great negative migrationof the losers side that wouldn't want to live in the countrey anymore, and maybe even divideness of two countries.
2)the moderate right scenario(shron's advisor scenario)- the pullout will sucssed with many hard photos. sharon will use it to show the world that he hardly win 10,000 setellers, and it will be much harder to make the same with all the west bank settelments. he will get support on the matter from majority of israel civilians, and will hope the world will think the same for same years.
3)the moderate scenario (the goverment policy)- after the pullout gaza strip will get full independence, egypt will get control on the border between sinai and gaza strip and could insert some policemen to ensure the border. palastine may build the seaport, industrial center, and such things as their plans tell, and her dependence of israel will low to the minimum. this state will be the test state for palastinan independent country they will get in peace agreement if they will succsed to deal with the terror in gaza strip.
4)the left scenario- after the pullout, the world will demand to see more surrenders, and the sides will be back at the nagotaion table, while the pullout from gaza strip will be israeli signature for good will, that may give advantages in the nagotation.

would you rather we gave you no money?

there's an old saying here (actually two come to mind):

1)Don't bite the hand that feeds you

2)Beggars can't be choosers

I support Israel, but cripes, quit whining about how much money we give you and instead concentrate on how to better spend it.

Ihatevacations']Last I heard Chicago has more jews than Israel. No other nation gets their own nation SOLELY because they have a special religion. OMG, we are jews we deserve a nation. Fuck you, move to chicago or go get some european country to lend you a few thousand square miles and declare yourself "judea city"first, in all USA there are some hundreds of thousands of jews more then israel, and they are divided between 3 or 4 big jewish area, so no area as more jews than israel. in some more years, in israel will be more jews than in all USA.
second, judaism isn't just religion. it is nation. you think countrey with uniqe national culture and national majority, is something special? what about england, france, japan, germany, italy, portugal, and almost all the rest of the world (except of USA and the multi-national culture)?
maybe we don't deserve to country more than the palastinians (only we already had one, while they refused to create country for themselves), but we surely don't deserve less than them or than every other nation on the earth.

would you rather we gave you no money?

there's an old saying here (actually two come to mind):

1)Don't bite the hand that feeds you

2)Beggars can't be choosers

I support Israel, but cripes, quit whining about how much money we give you and instead concentrate on how to better spend it.we can't spend it better, because USA decide for us what things we spend it on.
and I had no problem with the money they give us. I had problems with all those who think it is just present we get, and forget all the limits we had on it (that are for USA interests).

We give Israel billions, and they still find the time to spy on the US.

It's not like the US themselves doesn't spy on us (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1117937889170) or something. We just don't make that big a deal about it. :rolleyes:

The mystery submarine that Israel detected snooping off its shores last November belonged to the American navy and was on a spy mission, Channel Two reported Sunday.

would you rather we gave you no money?
Actually, YES. I'd rather Israel not get this "aid", that isn't really an aid and doesn't really aid much when you get to the bottom of this.

The only reason Israeli governments keep asking for more US aid is because its an easier short-term solution than implementing much needed economic reforms, which would mean a head-on confrontation with the monstrous government monopolies like the Electrical company. Most serious Israeli economists have long been saying that US aid harms Israel, not helps us. And the current Israeli finance minister, Netanyahu, has said it publically more than once that his policy is aimed at eventual phasing out of the aid.

The funny thing is that in the early 90-s, Israel BEGGED the US Congress to halt the aid, but the American industrial lobby was way too powerful to allow that.

It's not like the US themselves doesn't spy on us (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1117937889170) or something. We just don't make that big a deal about it. :rolleyes:

The mystery submarine that Israel detected snooping off its shores last November belonged to the American navy and was on a spy mission, Channel Two reported Sunday.


The US HAS to keep on eye on everybody. When there is any conflict, especially one that could potentially suck in neighboring countries, who is everyone going to turn to? The US. Even when its halfway around the world, everyone expects the US to use its influence or power to stabilize things. Then complain that we stick our noses in everywhere.
Israel needs to be watched closely.

It's not like the US themselves doesn't spy on us (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1117937889170) or something. We just don't make that big a deal about it. :rolleyes:


And we are the ones dumping billions in cash into your country. Its a one way street. Why would you make a big deal about it? Would Israel still exist without the US cash and backing?

And we are the ones dumping billions in cash into your country. Its a one way street. Why would you make a big deal about it? Would Israel still exist without the US cash and backing?
We sure as hell would. We existed, and had won three wars (1948 Independence war, 1956 Sinai war, 1967 Six Day war), before the US aid had begun to arrive in any meaningful quantities. There was never a shortage of allies: for a long time, our best friends were the French, of all people. Our entire air force was made of French Mirage type jets, and our Navy was largely built in Cherbourg. Right now, the Chinese are extremely interested (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1119320282122) in maximizing defense and economic ties with Israel. India, too, wants us as friends, so we most certainly wouldn't be left without powerful allies. And since Israel as proven itself capable of producing everything it needs domestically (tanks, fighter jets, assault rifles, rockets, radars, anti-missile defense systems), one wonders whether losing a "special relationship" status with the US would really be that big a loss for Israel. For the US it might be though. The US may have lots of fair weather friends, but Israel is their only reliable ally.