NationStates Jolt Archive

Can Islam ever be religion ?

For myself, I have serious doubts using the noun “religion” to describe that inhuman and violence glorifying ideology that was probably created in some dark hour by the devil somewhere in Middle East.

For me, this ideology actually belongs more to the category of fascism rather than religion, as these thoughts are not much better than the teachings of the NSDAP (Hitler’s Nazi party)

All I notice from that hatred-filled ideology is calls to violence, murdering and suppression of people that think different. Tolerance, liberty - even basic civilized structures are completely missing in these societies that follow these unholy teachings.

How can something be religion, that legalizes all kind of violence and heavily criminal acts ? That suppresses women and “unbelievers” ? That even legitimates torture and pain by so-called “priests” speaking in “churches” (Mosque) while carrying Kalashnikov rifles with them ?

The ideology of Islam has nothing to do with religion at all, it is a bloody tyranny wrapped into something they call “believes”.

These teachings are in direct conflicts with the believing of freedom and humanity of all western countries and can not exist in the space of our constitutions that are based on said values.

Therefore, I demand the outlawing of these inhuman and vitriolic ideology and practices from European countries – ideology that treats humans beings in a matter we Europe knows just too well from its history.
We must stop allowing Islamic “priests” teaching hatred and stop supporting this murder-bunch from building more and more Mosques and even Mekka-oriented cemeteries on our ground.

Wow. Apparently fundamentalist religious folks can be equated with the religion itself.

I propose that Latao is no longer allowed to voice his opinions. All in favor?

I come from London, and I'm sure you have heard about the horrific Bombings which took place on the 7th of July 2005. The bombers were infact Islamic, but they cannot be Muslims in my eyes. They have not only murdered innocent people, but corrupted the London transport system and put some of America's Underground trains on code Orange. And there seem to be alot of Islamic Militants. Why are these peopl fighting for their religeon, if they themselves are disobeying it and apparently against it?

All the bombers have been middle class
therefore the middle classes are pure evil

I propose that Latao is no longer allowed to voice his opinions. All in favor?\

Nobody is in favour, Latao is right. Religion is just an excuse for murder.
What terrible things are done for the love of God.

\

Nobody is in favour, Latao is right. Religion is just an excuse for murder.
What terrible things are done for the love of God.

I am sure I am not the only one who tires of the constant equation: religious fanaticism = mainstream religion.

I come from London, and I'm sure you have heard about the horrific Bombings which took place on the 7th of July 2005. The bombers were infact Islamic, but they cannot be Muslims in my eyes. They have not only murdered innocent people, but corrupted the London transport system and put some of America's Underground trains on code Orange. And there seem to be alot of Islamic Militants. Why are these peopl fighting for their religeon, if they themselves are disobeying it and apparently against it?

Fighting for religion is just a cheap excuse. The Qu'ran and bible has so much writing in it can be twisted to look as though killing is a good thing.

islam is religion, no matter what you think about it, and I think that it is the second biggest religion.
the christianity was religion in the middle ages, and they done much worser crimes in the name of the religion.
in addition, I am not sure that the radical islam who used by the terrorists, by iran or by saudia is same to the islam that most of the muslim believed in. I know as jewish that my (almost secular) religion as nothing to do with the settelers or the orthodox judaism, but I feel ok with most of the social laws of the bible (who had inside every opinion and her opposite if you think about it).

\

Nobody is in favour, Latao is right. Religion is just an excuse for murder.
What terrible things are done for the love of God.

Religion, my friend, is like any other thing we humans have. It can be used for good or ill. Do you blame the rock when a human bashes another over the head with it? Do you credit the hammer for building a shed?

I am sure I am not the only one who tires of the constant equation: religious fanaticism = mainstream religion.

What are you on about?

Can Islam ever be religion ?

For myself, I have serious doubts using the noun “religion” to describe that inhuman and violence glorifying ideology that was probably created in some dark hour by the devil somewhere in Middle East.

For me, this ideology actually belongs more to the category of fascism rather than religion, as these thoughts are not much better than the teachings of the NSDAP (Hitler’s Nazi party)

All I notice from that hatred-filled ideology is calls to violence, murdering and suppression of people that think different. Tolerance, liberty - even basic civilized structures are completely missing in these societies that follow these unholy teachings.

How can something be religion, that legalizes all kind of violence and heavily criminal acts ? That suppresses women and “unbelievers” ? That even legitimates torture and pain by so-called “priests” speaking in “churches” (Mosque) while carrying Kalashnikov rifles with them ?

The ideology of Islam has nothing to do with religion at all, it is a bloody tyranny wrapped into something they call “believes”.

These teachings are in direct conflicts with the believing of freedom and humanity of all western countries and can not exist in the space of our constitutions that are based on said values.

Therefore, I demand the outlawing of these inhuman and vitriolic ideology and practices from European countries – ideology that treats humans beings in a matter we Europe knows just too well from its history.
We must stop allowing Islamic “priests” teaching hatred and stop supporting this murder-bunch from building more and more Mosques and even Mekka-oriented cemeteries on our ground.

It is exactly statements like this that fuel extremists and gives them their so-called "excuse" to carry out their evil deeds. These extremists are a minority within the muslim community - a very vocal one, but nonetheless a minority. Most religions have extremist minorities advocating the death and destruction of other groups of people, but they are still that - a minority. As far as I understand the Islamic religion, these extremists break every rule in the book.

Religion, my friend, is like any other thing we humans have. It can be used for good or ill. Do you blame the rock when a human bashes another over the head with it? Do you credit the hammer for building a shed?

I know religion is a natural type of emotion or ritual and it can be a good and reforming thing that can change murderers into good people. But in its worst hour it can turn good people into murderers.

Someone said it once... those terrorist attacks have actually nothing to do with Islam itself... they are only misled by some perversion of it.

Not the exact words, but I'd recall it being something like that

What are you on about?

Mainstream Islam is no more violent than mainstream Christianity or mainstream Hinduism. This Latao individual has taken a fringe element of Islam and attempted to portray it as the norm for the religion, all in an attempt to denounce it. I, personally, am tired of the comparison, and I cannot believe that I am alone. Al Qaeda is no more mainstream Islam than the IRA is mainstream Catholicism. Latao's entire argument is absurd.

I reckon that religion was just a form of getting people to do what you wanted to do in the Dark Ages.
If you were king you could tell peasants that if they revolted then God would curse them and they would die a long and painful death.
It is a good way of controlling people, for the good of the community or to get yourself lots of dosh.

Mainstream Islam is no more violent than mainstream Christianity or mainstream Hinduism. This Latao individual has taken a fringe element of Islam and attempted to portray it as the norm for the religion, all in an attempt to denounce it. I, personally, am tired of the comparison, and I cannot believe that I am alone. Al Qaeda is no more mainstream Islam than the IRA is mainstream Catholicism. Latao's entire argument is absurd.

You are right, and I respect that.

There are explicit passages in that book that clearly call to violence agains specific groups of people, basically "unbelivers"...

I refuse to accept something like that - ban it.

Religion isn't an excuse to kill at all, where in the bible does it say you should kill?
The bible specifically tells us that you must not kill. People that kill for religion are not religious, they are using it as an excuse to cause evil. For instance, those in Ireland that say they are fighting for christianity, are not christians, they are using it as an excuse to cause havock. It gives a bad name to christianity!

I agree completely with Sdaeriji. Apparently, the word Islam itself means peace, so you can't really relate it with the fanaticism that takes place within a minority of its followers.

There are explicit passages in that book that clearly call to violence agains specific groups of people, basically "unbelivers"...

I refuse to accept something like that - ban it.

Violence should have nothing to do with religion but it does. There used to be many crusades and killings for Christianity in the Medieval times which were wrong. Atheism brings peace!

There are explicit passages in that book that clearly call to violence agains specific groups of people, basically "unbelivers"...

I refuse to accept something like that - ban it.

And Leviticus calls for people to be stoned. Shall we ban the Bible, too?

Shouldn't true religion teach things like love and peace ? It must be a messed up ideology if there's ways to take it as calls to "holy wars" and to build bombs u throw at innocent people.

No other book is that violent as Islam is. Ever heard of something like that in Buddhism ?

Mainstream Islam is no more violent than mainstream Christianity or mainstream Hinduism.

Empirically, that statement is just not true. Obviously looking at the amount of religious violence in India and muslim countries, mainstream hinduism and islam are considerably more violent than christianity.

That is not to say all hindus or muslims are terrorists of course, but I can't remember any major riots in "christian" capitals due to allegations involving "bible" desecration, which killed hundreds of people. Similarly I can't think of anything comparable to the recent events in Gujarat.

So no, the mainstream is not all the same.

It is fundamentally against all religions that I know of to commit suicide, but it seems to be the prefered method at the moment for 'Islamic' terrorists.

I know religion is a natural type of emotion or ritual and it can be a good and reforming thing that can change murderers into good people. But in its worst hour it can turn good people into murderers.

Then why did you say this?

Religion is just an excuse for murder.

Seems like an oversimplification that's contradicted by your later statement. :)

Can Islam ever be religion ?

For myself, I have serious doubts using the noun “religion” to describe that inhuman and violence glorifying ideology that was probably created in some dark hour by the devil somewhere in Middle East.

For me, this ideology actually belongs more to the category of fascism rather than religion, as these thoughts are not much better than the teachings of the NSDAP (Hitler’s Nazi party)

All I notice from that hatred-filled ideology is calls to violence, murdering and suppression of people that think different. Tolerance, liberty - even basic civilized structures are completely missing in these societies that follow these unholy teachings.

How can something be religion, that legalizes all kind of violence and heavily criminal acts ? That suppresses women and “unbelievers” ? That even legitimates torture and pain by so-called “priests” speaking in “churches” (Mosque) while carrying Kalashnikov rifles with them ?

The ideology of Islam has nothing to do with religion at all, it is a bloody tyranny wrapped into something they call “believes”.

These teachings are in direct conflicts with the believing of freedom and humanity of all western countries and can not exist in the space of our constitutions that are based on said values.

Therefore, I demand the outlawing of these inhuman and vitriolic ideology and practices from European countries – ideology that treats humans beings in a matter we Europe knows just too well from its history.
We must stop allowing Islamic “priests” teaching hatred and stop supporting this murder-bunch from building more and more Mosques and even Mekka-oriented cemeteries on our ground.

I like you. You're silly. :)

One interpretation of jihad (Islamic holy war) that I have heard is that the war should not be with other people/cultures/beliefs, as Islam teaches tolerance of others, but that the war is within yourself against, I suppose, the forces that are tempting you away from your religious life.

So many of these things are open to such wide interpretation, you can find a passage in most holy books to support pretty much anything you want...

Shouldn't true religion teach things like love and peace ? It must be a messed up ideology if there's ways to take it as calls to "holy wars" and to build bombs u throw at innocent people.

No other book is that violent as Islam is. Ever heard of something like that in Buddhism ?

And yet, people have interpreted the Bible as saying they should blow up abortion clinics. Just because people choose to read the words of a book in a way not intended, we ought to ban it?

Confabular']I agree completely with Sdaeriji. Apparently, the word Islam itself means peace, so you can't really relate it with the fanaticism that takes place within a minority of its followers.

Islam means “submission,” as in submission to Allah. I believe Muslim is “one who has submitted.”

Well, I wouldn't go that far saying "ban religion" as this is probably against the idea of freedom and liberty of a civilized, western country.

But basically yes, i watch religions with suspection - so that way, it was one of the better things we saw in the sovjet union.

Religion is Opium for People

Well, I wouldn't go that far saying "ban religion" as this is probably against the idea of freedom and liberty of a civilized, western country.

However, earlier:

Therefore, I demand the outlawing of these inhuman and vitriolic ideology and practices from European countries

I think you're expecting quite a lot if you think that a discriminating bigot can make sense while still holding an opinion.

Well, I wouldn't go that far saying "ban religion" as this is probably against the idea of freedom and liberty of a civilized, western country.

But basically yes, i watch religions with suspection - so that way, it was one of the better things we saw in the sovjet union.

Religion is Opium for People
than why was you talked specifically on the islam?

You just ignore my basic message.

I do not consider islam as a religion. It's just another type of fascism and tyranny.

My political aims is not to outlaw the real nice religion that try to help and lead people, I do not accept any hatred ideologies that lead to violence acts against other people, blood and suppression.

The Islamic peoples of this country (UK) are shocked and mortifed that this has happened.

The people in and around Leeds, where the suicide bombers came from are mortified now that they have realised that they were amongst them.

These peoples friends and relatives and neighbours and religious leaders just can't comprehend the fact that these young men have done this and when they have been interviewed you can see that most feel some level of unjustified guilt for not knowing that they were going to do this.

The first bomb victim to be burried yesterdya was a 20 year old Muslim woman, described as proud to have been British a woman and a Muslim, in that order.

Not only am I feeling for those who have lost their family and friends in this episode, but I am really feeling for the Muslim population of this country as I know thatmany of them will feel the shame of what these people have done in the name of their religion.

And what happens?
I flick onto NS and have a read of this thread.
GOOD GRIEF!
The initator of this thread should feel the most ahsamed of all for spewing out this absolute rubbish.

No sorry......
I feel a huge flaming welling up inside of me as I type, so dear reader, I will end now and hope that I have made my point clear and not spoken a load of giberish as some seem to be doing.

Confabular']I think you're expecting quite a lot if you think that a discriminating bigot can make sense while still holding an opinion.

YAY! :D

You just ignore my basic message.

I do not consider islam as a religion. It's just another type of fascism and tyranny.

My political aims is not to outlaw the real nice religion that try to help and lead people, I do not accept any hatred ideologies that lead to violence acts against other people, blood and suppression.

Yet you accept your own hatred ideology that calls for the suppression of Islam.

Well I wonder, why the world has never seen a clear and un-misunderstanble statement of these so-called "religious leaders" of Islam, that they are clearly against the utilization of violence and stand for tolerance and co-existence.

I insist, this is just not what they intend.

Well I wonder, why the world has never seen a clear and un-misunderstanble statement of these so-called "religious leaders" of Islam, that they are clearly against the utilization of violence and stand for tolerance and co-existence.

I insist, this is just not what they intend.

From whom? The Islamic Pope? What about the continued denouncements from multitudes of Islamic groups of every single terrorist attack perpetrated by Muslims?

Yet you accept your own hatred ideology that calls for the suppression of Islam.

Again wrong.

What I want is protecting our freedom and way of live from Islam-killers following a deadly alliance of ideology.

I *do* tolerate them, but I don't want that here - send them home and they can kill and stone as many people they want following their freaky teachings - but we have different rules.

Well I wonder, why the world has never seen a clear and un-misunderstanble statement of these so-called "religious leaders" of Islam, that they are clearly against the utilization of violence and stand for tolerance and co-existence.

I insist, this is just not what they intend.

If you have never seen this, then I suggest you read all of these:

Link 1 (http://www.4ni.co.uk/nationalnews.asp?id=42290)
Link 2 (http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=XV1515342P&news_headline=mosque_leaders_condemn_heinous_crime)
Link 3 (http://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=545&ArticleID=1083145)
Link 4 (http://iqna.ir/NewsBodyDesc_en.asp?lang=en&ProdID=23200)


I could go on...

Again wrong.

What I want is protecting our freedom and way of live from Islam-killers following a deadly alliance of ideology.

I *do* tolerate them, but I don't want that here - send them home and they can kill and stone as many people they want following their freaky teachings - but we have different rules.


Apparently not. :p

Again wrong.

What I want is protecting our freedom and way of live from Islam-killers following a deadly alliance of ideology.

I *do* tolerate them, but I don't want that here - send them home and they can kill and stone as many people they want following their freaky teachings - but we have different rules.

How can you call that tolerance? You want to ban the freedom of religion in your nation. You want to deport all followers of said religion. You have a outstanding ignorance of what Islam truly is. You are a hypocrite, sir.

From whom? The Islamic Pope? What about the continued denouncements from multitudes of Islamic groups of every single terrorist attack perpetrated by Muslims?

It would be nice if the Muslim Council of Britain - the umbrella group for the mainstream muslims in the UK - would condemn the killing of British Troops. They have however refused to do so. Even when asked.

It brings up the question, why we should accept/integrate/tolerate that kind of people ?

We lived in peace before these Allah-Killers came with their bad minds.

It would be nice if the Muslim Council of Britain - the umbrella group for the mainstream muslims in the UK - would condemn the killing of British Troops. They have however refused to do so. Even when asked.

Would that be this (http://www.mcb.org.uk/) organization?

Latao, Latao, Latao. Bigoted generalizations do not make for good arguments.

Should we also ban Christianity because of the Ku Klux Klan, a group of professed Christians who believe that God favors fair-skinned people to those of color, and who in some cases believe it an act justified by the Bible to hang a black man or woman?

Well, we're already attempting an oppression of a billion people. Why not go for another billion while we're at it?

I'm sure we can also find some nice extremist groups in other popular religions around the world whose twisted, hateful ideologies can easily be assumed into our views of the religion as a whole, thereby justifying even more bannings.

What else can we do to spread those western concepts of freedom you hold so dear around the world?

It brings up the question, why we should accept/integrate/tolerate that kind of people ?

We lived in peace before these Allah-Killers came with their bad minds.

Yes, Europe was a bastion of peace until Islam arrived. Do you even believe what you say?

It brings up the question, why we should accept/integrate/tolerate that kind of people ?

We lived in peace before these Allah-Killers came with their bad minds.

Yes. Because if there is one thing Europe is known for is a history of peace and love and tolerance. *bites inside of cheek to keep straight face* Like those wonderful Romans. They were so serene and peaceful that everyone in Europe just wanted to be part of their club.

And the Vikings. And the Huns. And the Germans. ANd the Spanish. ANd the British. ANd the French. Such delightful peacemongers. But what do you expect from good Catholic people? :p

I suppose an average person in Europe (and why not in America.) can't really understand Islam... As they go for the god and the holy divine, we go for money and property... I can't say I understand it either, though... yet I still think Islam is not for violence, but they just interpret (spelling?) the texts wrong, like does many of the christians that think they are helping the world...

I don't care if Islam is known as a religion or not, but I do care when people start thinking that Islam = Death to all nations. I mean yes the stoning is unnecessary, but what are we to judge them? It's not so many years ago when we hanged people and fried them in electric chairs and cut their heads off...

Let the islams be... it's the terrorists who to blame, not the religion

Yes, Europe was a bastion of peace until Islam arrived. Do you even believe what you say?
It was at last for 60 years, until your friends came from the left-parties

Again wrong.

What I want is protecting our freedom and way of live from Islam-killers following a deadly alliance of ideology.

I *do* tolerate them, but I don't want that here - send them home and they can kill and stone as many people they want following their freaky teachings - but we have different rules.

Where do you term Home?

These people were all young British born and bred, they were home.

And you call Muslims facist?
Replace the word Muslims with Jews and we're slipping back to the 40's.

Violence should have nothing to do with religion but it does. There used to be many crusades and killings for Christianity in the Medieval times which were wrong. Atheism brings peace!
No, atheism brings Stalin. :p

The problem here is that we're putting the cart before the horse. Some people are just nasty, brutish things to begin with, and will use whatever excuse is most convenient to justify their violence. Religion isn't the cause, it's just a nice smokescreen to hide the fact that these are just bad people from the get-go. If religion ceased to exist, they'd find some other excuse to cause terror. (Animal Liberation Front, anyone?)

It was at last for 60 years, until your friends came from the left-parties
*cough* Northern Ireland *cough*

What abotu the way they treat females ?

They must live like prisoners - not even receving the Geneva rights - their genitals are being cut, not even acceptable for animals.

You call that religion ?

All followers of that rubbish belong to jail or let the genuine god judge em....

It was at last for 60 years, until your friends came from the left-parties

Which sixty years were those?

It was at last for 60 years, until your friends came from the left-parties

You have heard of Kosovo right?

It brings up the question, why we should accept/integrate/tolerate that kind of people ?

We lived in peace before these Allah-Killers came with their bad minds.

The actions of the extreme radicals of Islam has sullied a religion that in its golden age was the most advanced civilization on earth. Its decline can be traced to the unwillingness to accept the new knowledge of science and spirit that has mankind has slowly come to accept for the past one hundered and sixty years. The following comes from the Kor'an.

07. And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity, to disunite the believers, and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; but Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars.



108. Never stand thou forth therein. There is a mosque whose foundation was laid from the first day on piety; it is more worthy of thy standing forth (for prayer) therein. In it are men who love to be purified; and Allah loveth those who make themselves pure.

109. Which then is best? he that layeth his foundation on piety to Allah and His good pleasure? or he that layeth his foundation on an undermined sand-cliff ready to crumble to pieces? And it doth crumble to pieces with him, into the fire of Hell. And Allah guideth not people that do wrong.

110. The foundation of those who so build is never free from suspicion and shakiness in their hearts, until their hearts are cut to pieces. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.

*cough* Northern Ireland *cough*

*cough* Hungary Czechoslovakia Yugoslavia *cough*

\

Nobody is in favour, Latao is right. Religion is just an excuse for murder.
What terrible things are done for the love of God.


Those who kill in the name of god are simply using his name as an excuse to have their way. If they thought people would think it was okay to kill in the name of chinchillas, they would do that too. I'm Agnostic, by the way. And to say that all islamics and muslims are murdering bastards is like saying that all American are militant, self centered ass holes. No group of people are "always" or "never". The fact is that most people are normal, its only the slap tard with the uzi that winds up on the news, cuz the media knows we will pay attention to him. That means we will watch untill the 5 o'clock news and they can run their commercials and be on the air again tommorow with a stroy about some child being raped by their parent.

p.s. if you tell somebody they don't have the right to say something, don't be surprised when they come along one day and tell you them same. That's how that bill of rights thing works. :D It's all or nothing.

Shouldn't true religion teach things like love and peace ? It must be a messed up ideology if there's ways to take it as calls to "holy wars" and to build bombs u throw at innocent people.

No other book is that violent as Islam is. Ever heard of something like that in Buddhism ?

Can I just point out, if no one has done already, that greater Jihad is actually an attempt to deepen ones faith, and lesser jihad a holy war, authorised by a high figure in the Islamic faith which currently doesn't exist.

Also, I'd like to say that I'm a Christian, just so people realise I'm doing this because I hate to see so many people horribly stereotyped, not to defend my religion.

*cough* Hungary Czechoslovakia Yugoslavia *cough*

I was trying to pick something uniquely british. But now that you mention it...

What abotu the way they treat females ?
As for what I understand is that they are changing. Females get more rights and get to vote and everything... It just takes some time.

I mean women in Europe were a thing you could just own, but with time the women stood up against it and look where we are now. Time... that's the answer

Would that be this (http://www.mcb.org.uk/) organization?

Uh-huh. So what? For months they refused to condemn attacks on British Troops. I understand it is their right to do so, but in all honesty, if it wasn't for the fact they were an Islamic group, that sort of attitude would have had them branded as an extremist fringe organization already.

What's more, Iqban Sacranie has chosen to use the London bombings as a platform to attack British society more than really condemn the bombers. Frankly his condemnation yesterday was nothing more than a backhanded jab at britons in general.

Do I think that every muslim is about to strap on a bomb, or that every muslims is a violent savage? Absolutely not. But it is utterly ridiculous to argue that the muslim community does not produce a higher proportion of the worlds terrorists at this moment, than any other ideology. It is also ridiculous to argue that so-called mainstream muslim organizations are tardy and half-hearted with their condemnations of these attrocities. Further, it is frequently the case when such condemnation is given, it is usually qualified rather than unconditional.

Britian is probably one of the most racially tolerant societies in the world, and it is certainly the one of the most wealthy. For Sacranie to suggest that the "wider community" needs to face the challenges raise by these bombings; those of islamophobia, racism and poverty, is nothing more than praising their actions with faint damnation.

*cough* Spain *cough*

(Have we run out of countries yet?)

So we state, we (chrisitans/muslims) HAD some things in comon. But that's gone for centuries.
Which means: they're just centuries behind. They're undeveloped and they're un-civilized and therefore shouldn't be mixed with our culture.

What abotu the way they treat females ?

They must live like prisoners - not even receving the Geneva rights - their genitals are being cut, not even acceptable for animals.

You call that religion ?

All followers of that rubbish belong to jail or let the genuine god judge em....

Its nice to see that you have given up on the idea that they all murder people etc, and have moved on. So now its time to quash this argument.

I'm an atheist, and have many muslim friends, a lot of whom are females, and there is no easier way of showing that it is not the case that muslim women live with no rights. I'm not even going to bother arguing this one; its jsut rediculous. Open your door and look out, and you will see muslim women doing what they want.

*cough* Spain *cough*

(Have we run out of countries yet?)

To be fair, Scandinavia has had that whole "peace" thing down.

So we state, we (chrisitans/muslims) HAD some things in comon. But that's gone for centuries.
Which means: they're just centuries behind. They're undeveloped and they're un-civilized and therefore shouldn't be mixed with our culture.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-028.gif

To be fair, Scandinavia has had that whole "peace" thing down.

That's because it's too freakin' cold to fight there. Hell, even the Vikings took their fights on the road. :p

So we state, we (chrisitans/muslims) HAD some things in comon. But that's gone for centuries.
Which means: they're just centuries behind. They're undeveloped and they're un-civilized and therefore shouldn't be mixed with our culture.

As far as idiotic, sweeping statements go, that one's up there with the best.

Can Islam ever be religion ?

For myself, I have serious doubts using the noun “religion” to describe that inhuman and violence glorifying ideology that was probably created in some dark hour by the devil somewhere in Middle East.

For me, this ideology actually belongs more to the category of fascism rather than religion, as these thoughts are not much better than the teachings of the NSDAP (Hitler’s Nazi party)

All I notice from that hatred-filled ideology is calls to violence, murdering and suppression of people that think different. Tolerance, liberty - even basic civilized structures are completely missing in these societies that follow these unholy teachings.

How can something be religion, that legalizes all kind of violence and heavily criminal acts ? That suppresses women and “unbelievers” ? That even legitimates torture and pain by so-called “priests” speaking in “churches” (Mosque) while carrying Kalashnikov rifles with them ?

The ideology of Islam has nothing to do with religion at all, it is a bloody tyranny wrapped into something they call “believes”.

These teachings are in direct conflicts with the believing of freedom and humanity of all western countries and can not exist in the space of our constitutions that are based on said values.

Therefore, I demand the outlawing of these inhuman and vitriolic ideology and practices from European countries – ideology that treats humans beings in a matter we Europe knows just too well from its history.
We must stop allowing Islamic “priests” teaching hatred and stop supporting this murder-bunch from building more and more Mosques and even Mekka-oriented cemeteries on our ground.


You know...the same can be said for Christianity. The Crusades, anyone?
The Inquisition, anyone? The Salem Witch Trials, anyone? The obliteration of the Native American people anyone? The steamrolling of hundreds of different religions and cultures, anyone?

Christians have a fairly bloody history themselves, whether or not you choose to own up to that is your concern. But I felt it should be pointed out.

Incidentally, did you know Hitler was a Christian? GWB says he's a Christian, and look just how much blood is on his hands in Iraq, many of them innocent civilians, "collateral damage" in an illegal war based on, and justified with, lies...aganist a soverign nation that had not threatened us, had not the ability to threaten us, and had nothing to do with 9/11. Not that Saddam was a nice guy...he wasn't! But since when is it OUR job to remove every nasty dictator in the world? If it IS our job, then whyt the hell aren't we up in North Korea, dealing with the gargoyle Kim Jong-Il, who IS demonstrably, a threat, and who has nukes, and is capable of delivering them?

Fact is...Wahabanists have perverted the religion of Islam to mean something it does not, and most Muslims are actually peace-loving, and much of the teachings of Islam can also be found in Christianity. wahabanists have hijacked the religion of Islam and perverted it to mean things it does not...in much the same way Evangelical Fundamentalists in this country have perverted Christianity to mean things it does not teach...things like hatred, intolerance, prejudice and bigotry.

My point is ANY time you mix religion with politics, the result is always nasty. Human history says as much. My guess is you are not very educated about Islam, and are having an understandable knee-jerk reaction to what you see around you....because, after all, only bad news makes headlines.

I stand against those who would pervert ANY religion to fit a particular political agenda, and that is what the Wahabanists have done with Islam...and the Evangelical Christians have done with Christianity. Both are wrong, both are evil. Neither is representative of the religion they claim to represent.

Incidentally, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian, and the IRA were all Christians. Plenty of terror has been committed in the name of the Christian God for you to be able to point your finger at Islam, and claim that it is the only religion that endorses terror...and that Allah is the only God who has ever been claimed to have endorsed acts of terror committed by misguided angry men.

I don't claim to know everything about Islam...or even Christianity, but I felt that the original poster could do with a bit of background on this subject. As a Unitarian Universalist myself, we are exposed to all major world religions, and so, I know something of Islam and it's teachings. I know more about Christianity and its teachings, having been raised Catholic...and now considering myself to be a Unitarian Christian.

I don't mean to be an apologist for Islam, or Christianity here...or to point the finger at either one for the worngs committed in their respective names. But I did want to point out that the original poster seems to have very little understanding of what Islam is about...and what's REALLY driving these dispicable acts of terror is NOT a religion, but a political agenda.

All I say is "Siyadat al-Islam"

The idea behind terror is an Islamic world revolution.

To be fair, Scandinavia has had that whole "peace" thing down.

Yes but to be fair also, look at their suicide rates and the laws they live under....There's even a law that dictates what you can and cannot name your children.........

i am great :)

That is not to say all hindus or muslims are terrorists of course, but I can't remember any major riots in "christian" capitals due to allegations involving "bible" desecration, which killed hundreds of people.

Really? Do the initials IRA mean nothing to you? Does Sinn Fein mean nothing to you? I suggest a re-reading of your world history, friend.

Yes but to be fair also, look at their suicide rates and the laws they live under....There's even a law that dictates what you can and cannot name your children.........
Well I think that ain't too bad thing... I mean there's gotta be some sense in it right?

Western culture has become afraid of transcendant truths. We want everything and every belief to be respected as equal. Even if those beliefs are opposed to our very existence.

Really? Do the initials IRA mean nothing to you? Does Sinn Fein mean nothing to you? I suggest a re-reading of your world history, friend.

Since when was there a riot in Northern Ireland 'due to allegations involving "bible" desecration'?

Yes but to be fair also, look at their suicide rates and the laws they live under....There's even a law that dictates what you can and cannot name your children.........

Is it higher then western societies? I thought the highest has always been Japan. Any credible links?

The IRA do not actually fight for God, but for Ireland, although most are religious and there are clearly religious differences between Catholicism and Protestants, which is where a lot of the fighting is now.

Mainstream Islam is no more violent than mainstream Christianity or mainstream Hinduism. This Latao individual has taken a fringe element of Islam and attempted to portray it as the norm for the religion, all in an attempt to denounce it. I, personally, am tired of the comparison, and I cannot believe that I am alone. Al Qaeda is no more mainstream Islam than the IRA is mainstream Catholicism. Latao's entire argument is absurd.Absolutley.

Confabular']It is fundamentally against all religions that I know of to commit suicide, but it seems to be the prefered method at the moment for 'Islamic' terrorists.

Would you like to know WHY??

We have bombs we can drop on them from 20,000 feet above them, and they have no other way to strike back. So they are attacking us, and getting revenge, in the only way they can. Not that I'm excusing or condoning it....but, unless you see what is going on, you have no chance of stopping it.

For every innocent Iraqi killed in our misguided war, we create more terrorists. We kill an innocent kid, and all of a sudden, his father, five brothers, three uncles, and one cousin...all BURN for revenge. They SEETHE at the injustice of the death of their loved one. They want someone to pay for that death. And we have just created ten terrorists, just like that.

I'm not saying these people are right, and I'm not making excuses for them, or apologizing for them...and I'm certainly not condoning what they do. But you need to understand how their minds work. You need to understand what the driving force behind terrorism actually IS...before you have any chance of effectively combatting it.

And anyone who says "they hate us for our freedoms" totally doesn't understand what drives these people. These people are desperate, they are poor, they are exploited, made to live in squalid conditions, imposed, often, by dictators we have installed and endorsed, in order to grease our little capitalist machine, and to feed our greed for consumption of the world's resources.

They are literally like the dog that has been backed into a corner, and has nothing left to lose anymore. they come out vicious, snarling, biting and thrashing at anyone they can reach. they are willing to commit suicide, because they have nothing left to live for, anyway. they have been driven to that point of desperation. If you want people to live peacefully, you do not back them into a corner.

And bombing them is no answer, because those who survive, who otherwise might not've cared before...will become the next terrorists, because they will seethe with anger and rage overe the deaths of their loved ones, at the hands of enemies they cannot have a fair chance at striking back at. So, they strike back at anyone who is representative of the people they REALLY want to strike at.

What breeds terrorism? Economic deprivation, desperation, injustice, wrongful death, a feeling of complete helplessness and powerlessness in the face of an enemy that cannot be struck back against in any other way.

When we learn to combat the SOURCE and root cause of terrorism, then we will make progress in eradicating terrorism. Until then, we will be fighting an endless war, and there will be eruptions of terrorism, like little skirmishes permeating our lives...and everntually, our history. First we need to do something to combat the desperation that causes some to turn to terrorism as the only way left to them.

Confabular']The IRA do not actually fight for God, but for Ireland, although most are religious and there are clearly religious differences between Catholicism and Protestants, which is where a lot of the fighting is now.

Most of the fighting now is actually within Loyalism (ie. predominantly Protestant against predominantly Protestant).

You just ignore my basic message.

I do not consider islam as a religion. It's just another type of fascism and tyranny.

My political aims is not to outlaw the real nice religion that try to help and lead people, I do not accept any hatred ideologies that lead to violence acts against other people, blood and suppression.

So, because YOU do not consider it a religion, it isn't? Who died and left you in charge? Who made YOU God?

what iof someone didn't consider YOUR faith to be a religion? Should THEY have a right to ban it, and stop you from practicing it?

This is a slippery slope, be very very careful, friend.

I agree with Lyric's second to last post; I only mentioned that suicide is now the prefered method to show that these people are not truely following Islam.

Again wrong.

What I want is protecting our freedom and way of live from Islam-killers following a deadly alliance of ideology.

I *do* tolerate them, but I don't want that here - send them home and they can kill and stone as many people they want following their freaky teachings - but we have different rules.

Is that so? Then how do you explain Matthew Shepherd getting beaten to within an inch of his life, and then tied to a fence in a Wyoming winter, and left to die, slowly, and painfully...and then to have his killers claim that it was "a holy killing" and that God had endorsed the killing, because, after all, Matt Shepherd was a homosexual?

Square that up with your words. Betcha you can't. Plenty of horrible things are done in the name of just about any religion you want. So your answer is to outlaw the religions of other people? Everyone ought to follow YOUR religion? Is that your answer?

What you really ought to be against is people who use religion as an excuse to be shitty to other people. Which is, of course, exactly what you are doing right now to Muslims. You are using the actions of a few of them to be shitty to all of them. Just thought you might be interested to know that is what you are doing. Food for thought.

BNP Troll.

It brings up the question, why we should accept/integrate/tolerate that kind of people ?

We lived in peace before these Allah-Killers came with their bad minds.

Did we?
Timothy McVeigh
The Crusdaes
The Inquisition
The Salem Witch Trials
Hitler
The IRA
Sinn Fein

(sarcasm) You know, I bet the Muslims, in the time of the Crusades said...hey, look, here come them sweet Jesus-killers again! (sarcasm off)

Actually, and all sarcasm aside, I wonder if those Muslims around the time of the Crusades said "We lived in peace before these Jesus-killers came with their bad minds."

Is it higher then western societies? I thought the highest has always been Japan. Any credible links?

Well Scandinavia is a western society, but we were both wrong.
(Naughty Valkyrja check before referring *smack*)

Rank Country Suicides per 100,000 inhabitants per year
1 Lithuania 42.0
2 Russia 37.4
3 Belarus 35.0
4 Latvia 34.3
5 Estonia 33.2
6 Hungary 32.1
7 Slovenia 30.9
8 Ukraine 29.4
9 Kazakhstan 28.7
10 Finland 24.3


Source Aniki.com (not linked as it has some dubious adds on the site)

It was at last for 60 years, until your friends came from the left-parties

Really now? Can you try reading some modern European history and come back and tell me that?

What about Sinn Fein? The IRA? the SLA? All active in the 1970's. Try again.

What about Sinn Fein? The IRA? the SLA? All active in the 1970's. Try again.

Quibble: you can't list Sinn Fein as separate from the IRA and a terrorist organisation. Either you recognise that they are a political party, and thus don't belong on the list, or you recognise that they are part of the IRA-movement and thus can't be listed separately.

I confess, i dont know SLA.
But the rest is politically based and has nothing todo with religion.

~ Incidentally, did you know Hitler was a Christian?

~ Incidentally, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian,


Overall I'm okay with your post's point, your message I agree with, how you got there (political stuff I'll hold my tongue on for being different topic), but these two names don't belong there.

We have more than enough bad Christians that you don't have to assign us the non-Christian bad guys too :)

1, Hitler:
The Nazis, under Hitler's direction, wanted to stop the printing and spread of the Bible, and to replace it with Mein Kampf. The Nazis wanted to remove the cross and replace it with the swastika, a symbol steeped in Eastern and Hindu mythology but most likely used by Hitler for its association with the he pre-Christian Germanic tribes that fought with and stopped the Romans.

The Nazis wanted to "exterminate irrevocably the foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800", probably a reference to the conquest and "Christianization" of the pagan Saxons by Charlemagne. Indeed, Hitler stated at one point to Bormann concerning his true attitude towards the Christian clergy in Germany,

"I'll make these damned parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews."

Further, Hitler also stated,

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors -- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... [/indent]

Hitler was NOT a Christian just because he was born in a Christian (at the time of his birth) nation.

2, Timothy McVeigh:
It is unfair to label Timothy McVeigh as a Christian since he in no way ever represented himself as a Christian, never referred to the Bible as a source for his ideas, never quoted the Bible, did not attend church nor function freely in churches and even denied, in one report, that Jesus is the Son of God, so Timothy McVeigh can not really be called a Christian by an objective speculation either. Being born into a Christian Family, but turning your back on it and then discarding it is hardly any different that 90% of the American posters in this forum who now call themselves anything but Christian regardless of their family heritage...


Otherwise, your post's message was fine by me, carry on...
:D

I confess, i dont know SLA.
But the rest is politically based and has nothing todo with religion.

Symbionese Liberation Army - active in ths US, mainly around LA, most famous for kidnapping Patty Hearst and her conversion to their cause. Ring any bells?

never heard...im not pretty much into US-internals ;-)

To be fair, Scandinavia has had that whole "peace" thing down.

For that matter, so did Switzerland.

There are explicit passages in that book that clearly call to violence agains specific groups of people, basically "unbelivers"...

I refuse to accept something like that - ban it.

How about giving us a reference to, or quote of, those passages.

It was at last for 60 years, until your friends came from the left-parties

I assume when you talk about 60 years of peace you refer to the time after WWII, when the cause of the violence was the extreme right. So it doesn't really make much sense for you to blame 'left-parties' for violence, after noting the huge contribution to violence the right has had.

I confess, i dont know SLA.
But the rest is politically based and has nothing todo with religion.

al-Qaeda is also politically based, and has nothing to do with religion, in spite of their claims to the contrary.

They do at least mix the two fields (religion and politics) as al Qaeeda usually talks bout ISlam ideas and that the devil will come or whatever's on in these sick minds

Shouldn't true religion teach things like love and peace ? It must be a messed up ideology if there's ways to take it as calls to "holy wars" and to build bombs u throw at innocent people.

No other book is that violent as Islam is. Ever heard of something like that in Buddhism ?

Actually, the Qur'an has about as many violent passages as the Old Testament does.
Plus, where is it written that religions have to be about peace and love? They can be about whatever.
The harming of civilians is strictly prohibited by the Qur'an. Perhaps if you read it and did some research with Muslim people before you so thickly spread your slander, you would realize how ignorant you make yourself look by writing such nonsense.

They do at least mix the two fields (religion and politics) as al Qaeeda usually talks bout ISlam ideas and that the devil will come or whatever's on in these sick minds
So? That is no reason for you to insult the entire religion because of you lack of knowledge on the subject beyond al-queida. If you want to be tehcnically foolish, I declare Christians nto a religion due to bombing of abortion clinics and the declarations by those who it that it is right and just. (note: I have not read every page and that is jsut a stupid example, shut up)

It brings up the question, why we should accept/integrate/tolerate that kind of people ?

We lived in peace before these Allah-Killers came with their bad minds.

I don't think you lived in peace in the UK while the IRA was running around blowing things up. :(

They do at least mix the two fields (religion and politics) as al Qaeeda usually talks bout ISlam ideas and that the devil will come or whatever's on in these sick minds

Most of the bloodiest history of humanity can be directly traced to those times in which religion and politics were mixed...and religion was usually the excuse for the bloodshed. Usually, the bloodshed was "endorsed" by God, the perpetrators of the violence claiming God was on their side.

Religion is just a nice, convenient smokescreen for al-Qeada...and for many other brutish, thuggish groups and individuals throughout human history. The main goal was power and politics...control of the masses.

If you would condemn Islam, first learn about it...and what it teaches (not what the American news media says it teaches) THEN, compare the actions of most Muslims with what their book teaches them. I think you'll find most Muslims are doing their best to live up to the teachings of the Koran. And the Koran does not endorse the killing of innocent people, regardless of what a few weird folks might say.

Ihatevacations']So? That is no reason for you to insult the entire religion because of you lack of knowledge on the subject beyond al-queida. If you want to be tehcnically foolish, I declare Christians nto a religion due to bombing of abortion clinics and the declarations by those who it that it is right and just. (note: I have not read every page and that is jsut a stupid example, shut up)

Good point!

Ever heard of "The Army Of God?"
Go ahead, I dare you to Google it, Latao.

Muslims killing innocent people? Unthinkable! Lets just forget the fact that they imprison and stone to death innocent rape victims and homosexuals in their own countries.

And don't even get me started on Sudan.

So we state, we (chrisitans/muslims) HAD some things in comon. But that's gone for centuries.
Which means: they're just centuries behind. They're undeveloped and they're un-civilized and therefore shouldn't be mixed with our culture.

wispers...Is this when he says he is not a racist? :eek:

Fighting for religion is just a cheap excuse. The Qu'ran and bible has so much writing in it can be twisted to look as though killing is a good thing.
Bible changed for about millions of times The Holly book Qu'ran is the same form the first day. ;) and every thing that happens (bad things) in THE EARTH is done by muslims, all of you are wrog. Why??
All muslims are not the same , all muslims are not same like Bin Laden and you can't say smth. for this religion and tells muslims that this religon is just the name of it? damn you boys, do You know what writes in the bible ??
God Is the only !!(and why you pray to Jesus (that you call) not in god not just to jesus but you pray to a lot of humans like praying to god This is absolutly wrong) Allah is the only And Mohammed is the messenger of God:D
La i'lahe i'lallah :D and do not write smth about this religion when you don't kwon nothing about it :D if you kwon that The Sistem of life is in Qu'ran

Al'lah is the only (do not write smth for this religion when you don't know nothing) Al'lahu ju shperbleft te gjithve!!

For every innocent Iraqi killed in our misguided war, we create more terrorists. We kill an innocent kid, and all of a sudden, his father, five brothers, three uncles, and one cousin...all BURN for revenge. They SEETHE at the injustice of the death of their loved one. They want someone to pay for that death. And we have just created ten terrorists, just like that.

And what about the innocent Iraqi that are killed by the insergents, most of whom are not even Iraqi?

You know what?

No ... just no ...

I am hereby officially stepping out of any and all threads of this nature. I have posted and posted and posted on this topic, showing passages from Qur'an and giving dozens of links to scholarly research which has proven to anyone with more than 2 brain cells that Islam is a religion of peace and brotherhood and tolerance and that the terrorists are not Muslim in any sense of the word.

If someone has a legitimate question or concern, that is one thing, but from here on out, this I decree, if all you can do is post "Death to Muslims!" then I place you as no better than the ones who enacted 9/11 and 7/7, Madrid, and other such acts and you are, therefore, my enemy. If you lump me in with Zarqawi and Bin Laden simply because of how I pray, then you become my enemy. If you believe me to be someone who could kill innocent lives for no reason other than what I am, then you become my enemy. I have nothing to say to, and have no use for, those who would make an enemy of me.

I am sick of it.

Can Islam ever be religion ?
<snip>
We must stop allowing Islamic “priests” teaching hatred and stop supporting this murder-bunch from building more and more Mosques and even Mekka-oriented cemeteries on our ground.
Hey. Your lack of knowledge about Islam is showing!

Hey. Your lack of knowledge about Islam is showing!

Couldn't have put it better myself. Funny how people jump to conclusions based on the actions of a few. The word root for Islam means 'peace' so even the mere suggestion that terrorist factions speak for the entire religion is absurd.