NationStates Jolt Archive

What do you guys think? Is the ageing of the population in the Western world something that will adversely affect our lives, and how should we go about solving it?

I belive that the only long-term solution is to raise the retirement age, and take steps towrds eradicating ageisim, fund healthcare systems better, so that healthier adults can go on working longer and encourage families to have more children. (Immigration of younger people could also plug the gap in the short term)

Or we could have a few painful decades were pensions are not paid, the population shrinks and we start again.

What I think is frustrating is that a shrinking population is whats needed in places such as Africa, where the continent is in fact overpopulated. Nearly 1 billion people live on a continent that has many deserts and is not developed enough to provide proper services to these people. But of course, when you're poor, you need children, when you're not, you don't.

Nah, the fact that western populations are shrinking and muslim populations are booming will have ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT! :p

Strain on the pension systems, soon Muslims might outnumber Christians and considering that Islam as a world religion lacks the progress that Christianity has made, these might be the biggest problems...

Nah, the fact that western populations are shrinking and muslim populations are booming will have ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT! :p

Strain on the pension systems, soon Muslims might outnumber Christians and considering that Islam as a world religion lacks the progress that Christianity has made, these might be the biggest problems...

I would be careful about saying things like that. A British Politician in 19 60 said ( Who was it, Lamont? Can someone remember?) 'In 15 years the Afro-Carribean population would outnumber the white population' , errr....WRONG!'


Plus, Christianity's always got Latin America.

I would be careful about saying things like that. A British Politician in 19 60 said ( Who was it, Lamont? Can someone remember?) 'In 15 years the Afro-Carribean population would outnumber the white population' , errr....WRONG!'


Plus, Christianity's always got Latin America.Europe has a pretty stable ZPG (zero population growth). The islamic countries are booming with kids. It has a lot to do with contraceptives and such. The no condom rule is supported by conservative muslims too.

I would be careful about saying things like that. A British Politician in 19 60 said ( Who was it, Lamont? Can someone remember?) 'In 15 years the Afro-Carribean population would outnumber the white population' , errr....WRONG!'


Plus, Christianity's always got Latin America.
Islam is the fastest growing religion currently ... and is the second bigest already behind christianity...

Europe has a pretty stable ZPG (zero population growth). The islamic countries are booming with kids. It has a lot to do with contraceptives and such. The no condom rule is supported by conservative muslims too.

Well, the Cathoilc Church has no-contraception rules dont they?
Or at least, they dont like it.

But I dont want this to be a discussion about religion! its about Demographics!

I would be careful about saying things like that. A British Politician in 19 60 said ( Who was it, Lamont? Can someone remember?) 'In 15 years the Afro-Carribean population would outnumber the white population' , errr....WRONG!'


Plus, Christianity's always got Latin America.

It was the late, unlamented Enoch Powell. Peerie Norrie was probably failing his maths A-level in 1960.

It might also be said that Islamic societies -- indeed, practically all non-Western societies -- have a far more respectful attitude towards their elders than we do, and find our practice of papping them off into homes when they become a bit of a bother more than a little grotesque.

Personally, I think the problem of the ageing population will result in our selfish generation demanding more and more from the state and using our grey votes to make sure we get it from the chicken-livered bimbos we elect. What we should do is try to sock away as much savings as possible, live within our own means, and try to shuffle off this mortal coil quietly and expeditiously without being too much of a burden to the future generations who are going to have enough on their plates trying to deal with the shortage of resources and excesses of pollution, seawater, polluted seawater etc. we'll be handing them. What we will do is probably another matter entirely. :(

Well, the Cathoilc Church has no-contraception rules dont they?
Or at least, they dont like it.

But I dont want this to be a discussion about religion! its about Demographics!
And the muslim world being against contraceptives while a lot of Christians aren't has nothing to do with demographics?

On NPR that some of the states with high social-welfare systems (eg: Germany) were having a bad time already, and expect major problems in the next 15 years.

I'd call it a major issue: soon, the various governments will be giving away so much in entitlements that they won't be able to fund them.

And the US isn't too much better off: entitlement programs are (even with the war!) still a larger percentage of the US budget than anything else.

And I bet the pople who are anti-immigration will be the ones most needing immigrants in a few years time!

And I bet the pople who are anti-immigration will be the ones most needing immigrants in a few years time!

As long as it's legal. There's no shotage of immigrants that want to work in the US, and letting them in legally and then taxing their income (to pay for their use of US schools/infrastructure etc.) is no problem. They can either stay or return to Mexico whenever as long as they do it legally.

I would support phasing out Social Security by making it optional. You can either pay SS tax and recieve benefits or you don't pay it and recieve no benefits. I want only a private account for myself because Social Security benefits are terrible. Let those who want it pay for it, don't force me to.

What do you guys think? Is the ageing of the population in the Western world something that will adversely affect our lives, and how should we go about solving it?

I belive that the only long-term solution is to raise the retirement age, and take steps towrds eradicating ageisim, fund healthcare systems better, so that healthier adults can go on working longer and encourage families to have more children. (Immigration of younger people could also plug the gap in the short term)

Or we could have a few painful decades were pensions are not paid, the population shrinks and we start again.

What I think is frustrating is that a shrinking population is whats needed in places such as Africa, where the continent is in fact overpopulated. Nearly 1 billion people live on a continent that has many deserts and is not developed enough to provide proper services to these people. But of course, when you're poor, you need children, when you're not, you don't.

Most of the world is suffering from some major population melt-down threat:

Wesern Europe's population is aging because of the pill (primaraly) and the socio-economic changes that the pill created - not bad things, but bad long term results. Costal USA, Canada, Japan, Russia and affluent south America have the same problems

Africa's population is shrinking because of AIDS and to a lesser extent the exidus to affluent wesern countries by the intelectual and professional classes(I am proof of that as are most of my class mates)

China has accidentally built its own population crisis because of the male:female ratio, I forsee big problems there.

Only India, bible belt America, Oceana and eastern Europe have escaped this general population crisis.

The Middle East is the one major information black hole. There is no way of knowing the Male:Female ration with any confedence because of some countries harsh gender traditions, there is no way of knowing the AIDS infection rates with any accuracy and growth rates in populations are generally hidden from the outside worlds prying eyes.

As long as it's legal. There's no shotage of immigrants that want to work in the US, and letting them in legally and then taxing their income (to pay for their use of US schools/infrastructure etc.) is no problem. They can either stay or return to Mexico whenever as long as they do it legally.

I would support phasing out Social Security by making it optional. You can either pay SS tax and recieve benefits or you don't pay it and recieve no benefits. I want only a private account for myself because Social Security benefits are terrible. Let those who want it pay for it, don't force me to.

I'm all for this, but it raises the interesting question, "What if you don't want to pay taxes at all?" Or, to put it more specifically, what if you disagree with the military/police, and decide to stop paying taxes to support them? Or you don't like public education, so you stop paying taxes to support that.

Getting back to the original topic, it's my opinion that there will become two groups of elderly in society, those that rely on entitlements such as social security, and a group that saves their own money and tries to be less of a burden on the younger generation. I hope that the latter group will be the larger, but I'm not optimistic about it.

As far as the aging population goes, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. The older one gets, the more experience they have and the better they are able to respond most situations (this has its limitations however.) Plus, if you actually talk to old people, most of them are really interesting, and dare I say, cool. I just hope that when I have to start making decisions about what to do with my parents, I'll have the compassion to take care of them myself and not shove them into a nursing home.

I'm all for this, but it raises the interesting question, "What if you don't want to pay taxes at all?" Or, to put it more specifically, what if you disagree with the military/police, and decide to stop paying taxes to support them? Or you don't like public education, so you stop paying taxes to support that.

Getting back to the original topic, it's my opinion that there will become two groups of elderly in society, those that rely on entitlements such as social security, and a group that saves their own money and tries to be less of a burden on the younger generation. I hope that the latter group will be the larger, but I'm not optimistic about it.

As far as the aging population goes, that might not necessarily be a bad thing. The older one gets, the more experience they have and the better they are able to respond most situations (this has its limitations however.) Plus, if you actually talk to old people, most of them are really interesting, and dare I say, cool. I just hope that when I have to start making decisions about what to do with my parents, I'll have the compassion to take care of them myself and not shove them into a nursing home.

Well, the difference in my opinion is that the military and police are necessary to preserve the rights of US citizens and to ensure our security. When there is another option, like with SS and private accounts, then it should be optional.

The latter group will be larger because the retirees today are much more knowledgeable than in the past, and more options are available. However, there will still be those who didn't set up accounts or couldn't, so they will be a large group as well.

That's the thing. We have this conception of the elderly as a burden, which isn't true at all. They have experience (why are almost all of our CEO's and Presdents older than 50?); they experienced past mistakes and can help us fix them today. We forget that the elderly are still people, and can still do things; what we need to do is encourage exercise and preventative medecine to ensure that our later years are still healthy and enjoyable. Being old doesn't mean being infirm and unable to enjoy life.

errr....

People in europe could just start having more children. I realise its easier said than done. It's that or we're going to have alot of problems. I don't really see immigration as the answer as I would like to preserve my culture to some extent.

What do you guys think? Is the ageing of the population in the Western world something that will adversely affect our lives, and how should we go about solving it?

I belive that the only long-term solution is to raise the retirement age, and take steps towrds eradicating ageisim, fund healthcare systems better, so that healthier adults can go on working longer and encourage families to have more children. (Immigration of younger people could also plug the gap in the short term)

Or we could have a few painful decades were pensions are not paid, the population shrinks and we start again.

What I think is frustrating is that a shrinking population is whats needed in places such as Africa, where the continent is in fact overpopulated. Nearly 1 billion people live on a continent that has many deserts and is not developed enough to provide proper services to these people. But of course, when you're poor, you need children, when you're not, you don't.
You seem to suffer from a lack of either knowledge or understanding ... or both! :p

errr....

People in europe could just start having more children. I realise its easier said than done. It's that or we're going to have alot of problems. I don't really see immigration as the answer as I would like to preserve my culture to some extent.
You're right. It is A LOT easier said than done.

You're right. It is A LOT easier said than done.

Its that or simply allow more immigration. Which is only effective in the short term. Looking at 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants in the UK, they have the same amount of children as the natives.

Really it boils down to having more women in the work place, that and the pill. As we cannot ethically stop women from working, which would just be wrong, the laws need to be fixed. Sorry let me explain that a bit better. I and might girlfriend, hope to get married in the future, and would both like to have several children. The only real difficulty would be the effect it would have on her career and how companies are less likely to hire because of maternity leave, etc....
I think women should have to take 6months maternity leave when the child is born, then back to work. Next the father should have to take 6months maternity leave. Maybe then people would not have to sacrifice having children just for their careers...

Or make people who have 1 child or less pay more tax. :) You Pension is based on how many children you have and their contribution to the economy. Everyone start :fluffle:

Its that or simply allow more immigration. Which is only effective in the short term. Looking at 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants in the UK, they have the same amount of children as the natives.

Really it boils down to having more women in the work place, that and the pill. As we cannot ethically stop women from working, which would just be wrong, the laws need to be fixed. Sorry let me explain that a bit better. I and might girlfriend, hope to get married in the future, and would both like to have several children. The only real difficulty would be the effect it would have on her career and how companies are less likely to hire because of maternity leave, etc....
I think women should have to take 6months maternity leave when the child is born, then back to work. Next the father should have to take 6months maternity leave. Maybe then people would not have to sacrifice having children just for their careers...

Or make people who have 1 child or less pay more tax. :) You Pension is based on how many children you have and their contribution to the economy. Everyone start :fluffle:One solution the socialists want in Germany is increasing the amount of daycare centers, but the conservatives aren't for it. They don't seem to notice the problem with giving women the choice between kids and career. Women tend to choose careers, and it shows now. Why have children when you need to give up your career?
What did the conservatives have to say to that?
"I believe that women should be at home with the children and not at work."
"Right now my wife is at home taking care of our son."
Just yesterday I was watching interviews with various individuals from the conservative party base. They don't seem to understand that it's necessary to allow for more daycare centers.

The great thing about old people is that they die, and then more people show up but with less wrinkles. I dunno how it works, but it does.

i think daycare should play a part, but so should family. grandparents, etc...

Really its got to be cheaper and easier to have children. More daycare is good, but it has to be paid for. guess there is no easy answer.

how old is you kid?

I KNOW THE GOVERNMENTS SHOULD SWITCH CONTRACEPTIVES WITH FERTILITY PILLS! SHOULD BOOST THE BIRTH RATE FOR A WHILE :p

i think daycare should play a part, but so should family. grandparents, etc...

Really its got to be cheaper and easier to have children. More daycare is good, but it has to be paid for. guess there is no easy answer.

how old is you kid?I take it you were talking to me...
I'm only twenty one... that's become an extremely early age to have children and I'm no exception.
The daycare issue is basically that there's only a single digit percentage of young children that can get a place in a daycare center. Family is important, but with the job situation, a lot of children move to study or to find work, and their parents aren't around to take care of potential grand children.

The great thing about old people is that they die, and then more people show up but with less wrinkles. I dunno how it works, but it does.
Agist. :mp5:

For the aging population, I propose the Logan's Run solution.

For the aging population, I propose the Logan's Run solution.
Agist. :mp5:

Try that with me and I'll kick ass and take names! :D

Agist. :mp5:

Try that with me and I'll kick ass and take names! :D
It doesn't necessarily have to be 30, it could 70 or 80. *ducks and covers*

Don't forget that older people like me have lots and lots of experience, and really don't care very much about dying ... we've come to terms with that, most of us.

Tangle with an elder and one of two things will happen, both of them bad:

1. You beat me up, in which case people say, "Hey, dude! You just beat up an old man!"

2. I beat you up, in which case people say, "Hey, dude! You just got beat by an old man!"

:D

It doesn't necessarily have to be 30, it could 70 or 80. *ducks and covers*
Tell you what ... if I make it to 80, I'll look you up and whip your ass. Then let's hear you spout nonsense! :D

You seem to suffer from a lack of either knowledge or understanding ... or both! :p

Why? Because he disagrees with you? So instead of explaining your side of why you believe him to be incorrect you insult him? Nice, and in your usual style. :rolleyes:

Why? Because he disagrees with you? So instead of explaining your side of why you believe him to be incorrect you insult him? Nice, and in your usual style. :rolleyes:
Just how did I insult him, Oh Great Mommie of Us All?

You seem to suffer from a lack of either knowledge or understanding ... or both! :p

As I was saying....

You know most of us are wise to your tactics.. you throw in a smiley at the end and feel that negates your insult. News flash, it doesn't.

As I was saying....

You know most of us are wise to your tactics.. you throw in a smiley at the end and feel that negates your insult. News flash, it doesn't.
( shrug ) So sue me.

( shrug ) So sue me.

No thanks, I don't need to, you seem to be given enough rope usually to hang yourself. I was only trying to point out why you do hang yourself. Not to be mean, but to try to show you that you did insult that guy. Now maybe you're completely unaware you do it. I was just trying to point it out to you. Nothing more, nothing less.