NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey all,

So apparently (well, according to wikipedia anyway), the Venona Files indicate that a small percentage of Joe McCarthy's redbaiting was accurate after all. I find that odd, because I'd read that Venona's big catches were in the 30s and 40s, before McCarthy started his bullshit, and from what I've seen of Venona (it's online), I can't find diddly that validates anything he said. Not to mention, the Tydings Committee made a pretty convincing case that everything he said was full of crap.

And yet, conservatives that I know, and a few pundits like Ann Coulter, assert that he was right and that McCarthyism has been justified. And my findings on wiki and elsewhere leave me not knowing what to think. Anyone more knowledgeable on the subject care to comment?

I don't know if wikipedia is a credible source anymore, considering ANYBODY can edit ANY page.

I don't know if wikipedia is a credible source anymore, considering ANYBODY can edit ANY page.
yup, I never trusted wiki at any time, it's just a secondary source, slightly more credible than FOX News.

i've found it to be fairly unbiased, particularly on political stuff, as if there's a contentious issue, the page will get locked and a big ass discussion will start up. i remember reading a bit of teh discussion about anarchy, where an anarchist was getting pissed at a libertarian who kept editing his page, but the final result looked ok to me.

I'd still reccomend caution, and to be critical of everything you read though.

Hey all,

So apparently (well, according to wikipedia anyway), the Venona Files indicate that a small percentage of Joe McCarthy's redbaiting was accurate after all. I find that odd, because I'd read that Venona's big catches were in the 30s and 40s, before McCarthy started his bullshit, and from what I've seen of Venona (it's online), I can't find diddly that validates anything he said. Not to mention, the Tydings Committee made a pretty convincing case that everything he said was full of crap.

And yet, conservatives that I know, and a few pundits like Ann Coulter, assert that he was right and that McCarthyism has been justified. And my findings on wiki and elsewhere leave me not knowing what to think. Anyone more knowledgeable on the subject care to comment?


Im not an expert..but I am a history buff, so let me give you a (mostly) educated opinion.

McCarthyism was a witchhunt, pure and simple.
It was based in an era where our biggest enemies were Communist, so logically, the hard-wing Right leaders of the era, saw everything communist, as a threat.
Many people had their lives ruined, for once having a loose ties to an american communist political party.

an american political party, mind you.


As for Ann Coulter....shes a hateful, vile spewing nutbag, who makes her living by giving incredibly right wing statements that generally make her look like an ass.

Even most Righties want nothing to with her.

Dont take her word for anything.

Hey all,

So apparently (well, according to wikipedia anyway), the Venona Files indicate that a small percentage of Joe McCarthy's redbaiting was accurate after all. I find that odd, because I'd read that Venona's big catches were in the 30s and 40s, before McCarthy started his bullshit, and from what I've seen of Venona (it's online), I can't find diddly that validates anything he said. Not to mention, the Tydings Committee made a pretty convincing case that everything he said was full of crap.

And yet, conservatives that I know, and a few pundits like Ann Coulter, assert that he was right and that McCarthyism has been justified. And my findings on wiki and elsewhere leave me not knowing what to think. Anyone more knowledgeable on the subject care to comment?

It's been a long while since I did any studies of McCarthy, so I couldn't really say one way or another. I can say that it doesn't really matter if McCarthy was correct or incorrect in his assertions if what he was doing was contrary to the stated principles that America and its citizens are supposed to live by. Anti-Communist does not equal patriot if you circumvent the Constitution to practice your anti-communism.

McCarthyism was not a "witch hunt." There were indeed hundreds of Soviet spies in the government. McCarthy did not investigate communists in Hollywood or the entertainment industry. He only concerned himself with communists that posed a direct threat to security, i.e. those who were in the military or federal government. So far, the Left has never been able to name a single innocent person he purportedly ruined, or at least, not anyone who was part of a McCarthy investigation. If anything, McCarthy greatly underestimated the extent of Soviet subversion. To get a look at the real McCarthy, read:

The Assassination of Joe McCarthy by Medford Evans
McCarthy by Roy Cohn
Who Killed Joe McCarthy? by William Bragg Ewald, Jr.
McCarthy and his Enemies by William Buckley and Brent Bozell
Who Promoted Peress? by Lionel Likos
The Lattimore Story by John T. Flynn
Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator by Arthur Herman
What is Senator McCarthy Really Trying to Do? by John Flynn
The Real McCarthy Record by James J. Drummey (The New American, Vol. 12, No. 18 September 2, 1996)
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=455
The Politically Incorrect Guide to U.S. History by Dr. Thomas Wood (in particular, the chapter "Yes, Soviet Sympathizers Really Existed")

For details on the reality of Soviet infiltration of the government, read:

Web of Subversion by James Burnham
Red Scare or Red Menace? American Communism and Anti Communism in the Cold War Era by John Earl Haynes
In Denial: Historians, Communism, and Espionage by John Earl Haynes
Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America by John Earl Haynes
Venona Secrets: Exposing Soviet Espionage and America's Traitors by Herbert Romerstein


Everyone McCarthy named as a spy or a traitor was exactly that. Everyone, from Owen Lattimore to Victor Perlo to Haldore Hanson to Mary Jane Keeney to Annie Lee Moss to Irving Peress to John Stewart Service to Phil Jessup. Moreover, McCarthy was not feared by the average American. A 1954 Gallup Poll listed him as the fourth most admired man in America.

"Everyone McCarthy named as a spy or a traitor was exactly that. Everyone, from Owen Lattimore to Victor Perlo to Haldore Hanson to Mary Jane Keeney to Annie Lee Moss to Irving Peress to John Stewart Service to Phil Jessup. Moreover, McCarthy was not feared by the average American. A 1954 Gallup Poll listed him as the fourth most admired man in America."

I checked a list of confirmed Soviet spies (as in their real names, not just codenames, were identified) and I only found two of the people you mentioned; Victor Perlo and Mary Jane Keeney. Granted, it was Wiki again, but those were the only lists I could find.

I also read the article you linked, and it seems like the vast majority of that stuff occured in the mid/late 40's, so it would've been outdated by the time McCarthy came around. I'm not saying that there were no attempts to spy on our government, I'm just confused by claims of McCarthy's total accuracy.

And you're right about that Gallup Poll; people liked McCarthy until they saw him in action.

McCarthyism was not a "witch hunt." There were indeed hundreds of Soviet spies in the government. McCarthy did not investigate communists in Hollywood or the entertainment industry. He only concerned himself with communists that posed a direct threat to security, i.e. those who were in the military or federal government. So far, the Left has never been able to name a single person he purportedly ruined, or at least, not anyone who was part of a McCarthy investigation. If anything, McCarthy greatly underestimated the extent of Soviet subversion.

Everyone McCarthy named as a spy or a traitor was exactly that. Everyone, from Owen Lattimore to Victor Perlo to Haldore Hanson to Mary Jane Keeney to Annie Lee Moss to Irving Peress to John Stewart Service to Phil Jessup. Moreover, McCarthy was not feared by the average American. A 1954 Gallup Poll listed him as the fourth most admired man in America.

Your completly correct. McCarthy did not make a single false assertion. Its been proven that the Democratic party was riddled with Soviet spys. Alger Hiss anyone? Everyone, including the President, the New York Times, the LA Times, the Washington Post, etc., all defended Hiss with extreme vehemence, even when ex-Soviet spy Wittaker Chambers pointed him out as a Soviet spy. How did the President react to this? HE PROMOTED HIM. Everyone in Hollywood were Commies. And all the "blacklisting" that occured. Aww, poor babies, its so horrible that communist sympethizers werent able to get work, now isn't it? What I don't understand is why rich people support a economic system which wants to eliminate the wealthy. As for the original poster saying the Veona project was in the '30s and '40s, it wasnt actually started until the late '50s. Everyone that the "elites" in society defended have been proven to be spys. McCarthyism is something which the Left wing made up to try and have the last laugh with their revisionst history. They claim that there was no support for McCarthy, even though the American public loved him, it was only the liberals who were against him. Even some members of the Democratic party supported McCarthy, specifically John F. Kennedy.

It was based in an era where our biggest enemies were Communist, so logically, the hard-wing Right leaders of the era, saw everything communist, as a threat.
Many people had their lives ruined, for once having a loose ties to an american communist political party.

You do know that it has been proven that ALL the leaders of the CPUSA had links to Stalin, right?

And you're right about that Gallup Poll; people liked McCarthy until they saw him in action.

People liked McCarthy BECAUSE of his action. He actually had the nerve to want to get rid of spys in government, and the public loved him for it. McCarthy didnt go out specifically for communists, he went out against all subversives in government employment, however he mostly found soviet spys because we were involved in the cold war.

Its been proven that the Democratic party was riddled with Soviet spys.

Yep. All those Communists that suddenly found themselves unpopular after the depression ended had to go somewhere. Some joined the Democratic party, some became “socialists” and others founded or joined the various environmental organizations.

Everyone in Hollywood were Commies.

Well, not “everyone”, but a good number. That is why Ronald Reagan became a Republican, because his fellow actors were so left wing.

Everyone, including the President, the New York Times, the LA Times, the Washington Post, etc., all defended Hiss with extreme vehemence, even when ex-Soviet spy Wittaker Chambers pointed him out as a Soviet spy. How did the President react to this? HE PROMOTED HIM. Everyone in Hollywood were Commies. And all the "blacklisting" that occured.

Truman was right along with FDR as soft on communism. Look into real history and you’ll see that those two had quite a thing going with communists.

Even some members of the Democratic party supported McCarthy, specifically John F. Kennedy.

Heck, JFK even worked for McCarthy.

As for the original poster saying the Veona project was in the '30s and '40s, it wasnt actually started until the late '50s.

Actually, the CIA (http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/venona/venona.htm) says that plans for Venona began as early as 1939, and the NSA (http://www.nsa.gov/venona/index.cfm) claims that the program began in 1943. Either way, it started well before the late 50s.

Agreed about JFK's strong anti-communist leanings and popular support for Hiss, despite him actually being a spy, at the time. The problem with Hiss is that much of the evidence against him couldn't be made public (aside from that pumpkin thing), so naturally people thought the whole thing was a crock. Or at least, that's my understanding

...

The problem with Hiss is that much of the evidence against him couldn't be made public (aside from that pumpkin thing), so naturally people thought the whole thing was a crock. Or at least, that's my understanding
Basically, yes. McCarthy had nothing to do with Hiss case, though -- he started his hunt after Hiss's conviction. Of course, McCarthy was far from accurate -- he was throwing mud at left-wingers, some of them were really Soviet spies. Most of them weren't, though. For example, Venona files do not name Owen Lattimore as a spy -- and McCarthy said that he is to stand or fall over Lattimore.

Just because a person was in a Socialist party in the 30's did not mean that their careers should be ruined for it later. The Great depression made many people proclaim themselves socialist and many were later persecuted for it after they had broken off all ties.

why were people like charlie chaplin sought out and destroyed simply because of their beliefs?

go after spies from any country, i'm sure there's enough here right now as we speak. but don't use it as an excuse to go after anyone you disagree with.

i'm not a communist, but i'll defend it anyway. communism shouldn't be seen as any less legitimate than economic libertarianism. it is true grassroots democracy, power to the common people, everyone helps each other out for mutual gain. libertarianism on the other hand, the government becomes a tool of the wealthy class to redistribute wealth upwards.

y'all think you should only get what you can pay for, so the poor should get the worst schools, or no school at all, therefore no chance to move up in society, while the rich can send their kids to the best schools. poor shouldn't be able to see a doctor, etc.

don't mean to turn this into a debate on economics, but stop treating political parties like they're intrinsically bad. i mean, would you want yourself and all your capitalist cronies to be hunted down in the same manner in soviet amerika?

Actually, the CIA (http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/venona/venona.htm) says that plans for Venona began as early as 1939, and the NSA (http://www.nsa.gov/venona/index.cfm) claims that the program began in 1943. Either way, it started well before the late 50s.

Agreed about JFK's strong anti-communist leanings and popular support for Hiss, despite him actually being a spy, at the time. The problem with Hiss is that much of the evidence against him couldn't be made public (aside from that pumpkin thing), so naturally people thought the whole thing was a crock. Or at least, that's my understanding
Kiefabira, I see only one problem with your reasoning here. Cause and effect. Was McCarthy/Red Scare the first action or a response? It was a response. Hence, there will be a time lag. Remember, it always takes time to build a case(first discover, collect intel, then prosecute--not to mentin that maybe you want to wait and uncover a whole network); and that over time the problem of infiltration would get worse--requiring a response.
HUAC, originally started to get Klu Klux Klansmen, wasn't pretty when it was set loose on communism. It had a job to do, uncovering communists who were propogandizing thru HollyW or working against US interests in general(either in the gov't or not), and sought to do so expeditiously and not caring about who got trampled--there's good reasons for and against doing it that way.
Basically McCarthy was neither satan nor saint, as the two popular myths(Red Scare vs. Coulterism) go. Neither was the Red Scare totally one sided(hysteria). Red Star over Hollywood is a decent place to start(i.e. communists did exist in Hollywood and were putting as good a face on communism as possible--if the Duke Waybe version of The Alamo is bad because it's an anti-communism polemic shouldn't you also find fault with pro-communism polemics for the same reason?). Then there's the uncovering of Duranty about the Ukrain famine--these things shaped how many in the US viewed communism(i.e. it delivered on all their hopes and dreams: Land of Milk and Honey and total egalitarianism). Only when that was shown to be false did lots of people bolt Int'l Communism(giving us the neo-cons to some degree).

Justifying McCarthy's actions because maybe some of the people he blindly accused were Communist Sympathizers is the same as calling a Mossberg Cruiser loaded with buckshot from a 100 yards accurate because some of the pellets managed to hit the bullseye. Utter and complete crap.

McCarthy got off on the publicity and the carte blanche that the Second Red Scare and his Commie Hunts gave him. He was so fucking used to people not questioning his actions and policies (sound familiar kiddies) that he thought he could do anything.

When his little buddy Roy Cohn's former aide G. David Schine didn't receive preferential treatment in the U.S. Army that's when Tailgunner Joe went on his "The Army is Full of Commies" obcession.

And we all saw how that went down.

Agreed about JFK's strong anti-communist leanings and popular support for Hiss, despite him actually being a spy, at the time. The problem with Hiss is that much of the evidence against him couldn't be made public (aside from that pumpkin thing), so naturally people thought the whole thing was a crock. Or at least, that's my understanding


Most of the American people thought he was innocent at first, but then as the trial went on, belived him to be guilty.

Basically, yes. McCarthy had nothing to do with Hiss case, though

You are correct. The hero of that story is Richard M. Nixon. All the other people on the House UN-American Activities Committee were ready to let Hiss walk, but not Nixon. That man had a knack for sensing commies. He was the only one in Eisenhower’s administration who though that Castro was a communist and would not be a friend of the US.

libertarianism on the other hand, the government becomes a tool of the wealthy class to redistribute wealth
upwards

Uh, no. In economic libertarianism the government stays out of he economy entirely. Not that I am a strict economic libertarian. I hold the environment in too high a regard for that.

don't mean to turn this into a debate on economics, but stop treating political parties like they're intrinsically bad. i mean, would you want yourself and all your capitalist cronies to be hunted down in the same manner in soviet amerika?

I would have died fighting a “Soviet Amerika” long before I let them hunt me down first.

Anyone who approaches research on McCarthy with an open mind will find plenty of facts to draw conclusions from.

I changed some of my ideas after I started reading. Conventional wisdom on this issue is wrong, in my view. You may be surprised what you learn.

I'm just confused by claims of McCarthy's total accuracy.
McCarthy was far from stupid, after all, he predicted what would happen in Afghanistan if all the US did was send weaponry without trying to restore order to the country. As for his hunting, the people he denounced as spies were all guilty, but he didn't publicly denounce them until he had found incontrovertiable evidence that they were soviet spies. However, he certainly wasn't above making people's lives a living hell if he only suspected them of being soviet spies and there were a lot of people in that group.

McCarthy was far from stupid, after all, he predicted what would happen in Afghanistan if all the US did was send weaponry without trying to restore order to the country. ...
Afghanistan was a tranquil traditional monarchy in the 50s... why McCarthy commented upon it then?

http://mccarthyism.org/store.php

People don't seem to realize that many of the communists Joe McCarthey busted were "small c communists," meaning that they were Marxists that believed in a planned economy, but not members of the CPUSA. These people were wrongly persecuted for their political convictions and many were as patriotic as democrats and republicans. The CPUSA was partially funded by the Soviet Union, so in my opinion, government officials should have been told (quietly!) to resign or quit the party, not because of the politics of communism, but because they were part of an organization that was funded by a foreign power and used for intelligence purposes.

McCarthy was far from stupid, after all, he predicted what would happen in Afghanistan if all the US did was send weaponry without trying to restore order to the country. As for his hunting, the people he denounced as spies were all guilty, but he didn't publicly denounce them until he had found incontrovertiable evidence that they were soviet spies. However, he certainly wasn't above making people's lives a living hell if he only suspected them of being soviet spies and there were a lot of people in that group.

That's the stupidest thing I've heard today, but granted, I just woke up. Ol' Joe died of alcoholism 25 years before the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. It's like saying George Washington predicted the Gulf War.

Afghanistan was a tranquil traditional monarchy in the 50s... why McCarthy commented upon it then?
D'oh, nevermind, was thinking of someone else.

Anyone who approaches research on McCarthy with an open mind will find plenty of facts to draw conclusions from.

I changed some of my ideas after I started reading. Conventional wisdom on this issue is wrong, in my view. You may be surprised what you learn.

This is an excellent point. I've done some introductory reading on the subject, and found that, despite conventional wisdom, there was a Soviet presence in this country at it's highest official levels. But I don't think the traditional view of McCarthy is too off, as far as him being a fearmonger and completely full of shit are concerned.

However, since Venona was only declassified 10 years ago, it'll take some time to figure out what really happened as historians pick the documents apart.

Also, thanks for keeping this civil, folks. I do appreciate it. :)

For example, Venona files do not name Owen Lattimore as a spy -- and McCarthy said that he is to stand or fall over Lattimore.

Excuse me? What Venona transcripts have you been reading? Lattimore was one of the higher ranking Soviet spys in America during the Colw War.

Hey all,
So apparently (well, according to wikipedia anyway),

The way I understand it wikipedia is not an academically acceptable web site. Anyone can post anything they want and everyone hopes experts in the applicable field will correct the incorrect postings. What a way to run an encyclopedia. :(

All right, this thread gone on long enuff. I'll settle this.

1) There WERE Soviet spies in the USA.
2) McCarthy used the fact there were Soviet spies in the USA to fear monger and blindly presecute people using the tactic of guilt by assocciation, causing people's lives to be ruined while actually hitting a few communists. He felt he was OK to do so, because of his pararoia.
3) Ann Coulter is full of shit.
4) The CPUSA was a tool of the Soviets.
5) Some Soviet spies got it in the end.

And yet, conservatives that I know, and a few pundits like Ann Coulter, assert that he was right and that McCarthyism has been justified. And my findings on wiki and elsewhere leave me not knowing what to think. Anyone more knowledgeable on the subject care to comment?
pundits like ann coulter are wackjobs. her mouth spews miasma and bullshit. shes like the 7th layer of hell

Awww Annie. Ask her about her comments about Canadians being in Viet Nam :D

Now old Senator Joe. I wondered when this topic would be back.

Have to give Annie Credit. Her comments have sprang a whole revisionism of the history. Joe the great american hero. My uncle would tell you that. My uncle also likes parroting Republican sound bites. I love him dearly but I just want to smack him some times.

Anyway;

Senator Joe is hardly the great american and I would argue he hurt us in the long run.

McCarthyism is the use of intimidation and unfounded accusations in the name of fighting communism. It followed the tenat of the presumption of guilt instead of innocence, and the idea of guilt by association.

A powerful tool as to why McCarthy went on as he did was
Truman's Federal Employee Loyalty Program. It prevented openly criticizing American foreign policy, advocating equal rights for women, owning books on socialism, and attending foreign films. A person accused of being a Communist could not fight back because social sanctions would be imposed before any sort of trial or reply was allowed.

McCarthy was not dedicated to finding Communists in America as his primary purpose; he was ambivalent to this before he needed a cause to fight for for re-election. McCarthy was really looking for 'New Dealers,' not only because the public already had negative feelings about them, but because it would keep his party in power in government and recapture lost congressional power.

His arrogence finally killed him when he began his fight with the army. McCarthy tried to arrange preferential treatment for one of his friends. The Army kept a record of the calls he made, and then later released them. McCarthy lost it and made wild accusations that the Army was filled with Communists. And so the Army-McCarthy hearings began

The fact they were televised added to his demise as his brutish and rash behavior lost him public support. What killed McCarthy was:

1) Army counsel Joseph Welch showed that McCarthy had a photo altered to make Secretary of the Army Stevens look like he had had a private discussion with the head of the Communist Party in America. Guilt by association.

2) McCarthy produced a hoax and forged letter supposedly from J. Edgar Hoover that confirmed that there were Communists in high places in the Army.

3) The dope went after Eisenhower who was almost worshipped at this time. "Twenty, I mean twenty-one years of treason."

He was finally destroyed when Welch demanded a list of names of supposed communists from Cohn "by sundown." McCarthy explodes and tries to accuse a young aide that Welch had once employed in his personal staff. Welch stopped the discussion and said those imortal words, "Until this moment Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"

McCarthyism has had an effect on the American people ever since its creation. It hurt the morale in the State Department and Army. This lead young educated people, the best and the brightest, not to go into government, which was left with second rate leaders who were more loyal than they were intelligent. An example is that the China Hands , who were experts on Eastern politics, were dismissed and replaced with people who told their superiors only what they wanted to hear. This lead to the mistakes made during the Chinese revolution; it was considered a loss because the new leader was forced to be against the US. The lack of these China Hands also lead to more problems in Korea and Viet Nam. A lasting effect of McCarthyism was that the presidents, including Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and Reagan, did not want to seem "soft on communism," so they took the drastic step of supporting any group in power in any country that was against communism. This included far right wing dictators, as well, who were like the Mussolinis and Hitlers fought in WWII.

Politics probably went downhill as unethical violent actions such as ordered assassinations of leaders of other countries in the name of National Security. Secrecy grows and we get the Watergate scandal. This probably is the point where people lost their trust in the goverment. It didn't help that Ford pardoned Nixon. This probably is what got Carter elected. His qualifications are questionable but he seemed honest. The hostage crisises appears and he couldn't get them free. People get frustrated and we get Ronald Reagan. During Reagan's reign, the national debt triples, Iran-gate occurs, and a lack of government controls makes disasters such as the Savings and Loan scandal and the insider trading on the stock market by the likes of Ivan Boesky possible. Hmmm I better stop here as the mere mention of Clinton and the shrub will take this thread in another direction ;).

Now having said all that; it is important to realize that ignorant persecution did not come from McCarthy. People have done it for a long time. For example, the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Hunts. A more modern manifestation would be sexual harassment. Once someone has been accused of sexual harassment, they are shunned socially, whether they are finally found guilty or not.

Ah well what do I know. Just some ramblings from boredom ;)

McCarthy's peversion of the constitution and the government have shown that during his years he would do anything to prove a point, and crush anyone who threatened his power. Hmm.. sounds like Stalin. They both shared this paranoia. In the end, I guess Ol' Joe became just like his enemies, or at least what he saw his enemies to be. That just shows that neither the extreme left or right is good for democracy.

Excuse me? What Venona transcripts have you been reading? Lattimore was one of the higher ranking Soviet spys in America during the Colw War.
Don't believe everything you've heard, I've seen no source which, taking into account the information from Venona, identified Mr Lattimore as a Soviet spy. The new line of the extreme US right is that he was spying for the Chinese, haven't you heard?

http://www.spongobongo.com/her9984.htm