NationStates Jolt Archive

My question is, should Quebec be allowed to secede from the confederation (Canada), and form it's own nation, as they've been trying to do for the last few decades?

If you think so, then why? If you don't think so, then why not? What would the consequences be if they were to separate? What would become of the rest of Canada? Would they be recognized as a true nation? How long would they last?

-Please, no derogatory posts about Quebec or Canada. Keep it civil.


If you do not know why Quebec seeks sovereignty, then this site will explain Quebec's view on it.
http://www.rocler.qc.ca/turp/eng/Intellectuals/Intel.htm

Being an American, I don't know much about the debate, but I see no reason why Quebec shouldn't be able to gain independence.

At least at the moment, Quebec should not separate because more than half of the Quebec population has voted to stay in Canada. If often doesn't seem that way, because the separatists are very loud, while the federalists are not, but the majority does want to stay.
If the majority ever changes their mind on this, then I see no reason for us to stop them from leaving.

hey i'm a mexican, but i lived in montreal, quebec 4 a while and i really dont know why does some ppl want to separate... the official language of canada is english & french cuz quebec asked it, now everythin is in both languages. if u made a referendum to know if ppl want quebec's sovereignity u wud see that not everyone want it, they are comfortable bein canadians. the flq(fondation liberation quebec) doesnt exist anymore, why? cuz quebec's sovereignity is not a priority to the quebeçois.
americans only care for america so what do they know?????

Speaking as a Briton I'm fairly indifferent, I'd give the people of Quebec a simple majority vote on independance if they want one though.

Damn, if they do this someone will have to make a new Risk game :(

Fine. Let them form their own country. See how far they go. They have no army, and no trade partners (except for the people who buy Bombardier planes). They won't last very long.

Besides, I'm tired of EVERYTHING being bilingual.

hey i'm a mexican, but i lived in montreal, quebec 4 a while and i really dont know why does some ppl want to separate... the official language of canada is english & french cuz quebec asked it, now everythin is in both languages. if u made a referendum to know if ppl want quebec's sovereignity u wud see that not everyone want it, they are comfortable bein canadians. the flq(fondation liberation quebec) doesnt exist anymore, why? cuz quebec's sovereignity is not a priority to the quebeçois.
americans only care for america so what do they know?????
I'm not a spelling nazi, and I usually don't care, but for the love of god, please write normal English, I like to think this forum is not the ICP juggalo forum.

If Quebec were to break off, then Alberta could too. They'd make a great 51st state... :D

Damn, if they do this someone will have to make a new Risk game :(

Actually, I think there is a version of Risk with Quebec as it's own country. I'm pretty sure I played it once... ;)

http://www.rocler.qc.ca/turp/eng/Intellectuals/Intel.htm
An interesting article but why split it? It would be like seeking to split all the american states up or spliting out the UK into England Wales Scotland and N.Ireland.
We already have an instance in England where a county (Cornwall ) wants to break out, what next, should we have the City of Oxford declared a principality?

My question is, should Quebec be allowed to secede from the confederation (Canada), and form it's own nation, as they've been trying to do for the last few decades?

If you think so, then why? If you don't think so, then why not? What would the consequences be if they were to separate? What would become of the rest of Canada? Would they be recognized as a true nation? How long would they last?

-Please, no derogatory posts about Quebec or Canada. Keep it civil.


If you do not know why Quebec seeks sovereignty, then this site will explain Quebec's view on it.
http://www.rocler.qc.ca/turp/eng/Intellectuals/Intel.htm


Here is your future timeline of Canada (barring any world events such as WW3 etc)
-2007 Quebec provincial election, Parti-Quebecois will win cause Quebecers are getting tired of Charest and furious with Martin in relation to the sponsorship inquiry
-2007/08 Quebec will have a referendum on seperation and will be successful due in strong part to Quebecers furious over the Liberal's dealing during the sponsorship inquiry
-France will be the first international country to recognize Quebec as their own nation, Canada will be forced to discuss a deal in relation to the St. Lawrence seaway and other factors in the breakup. Depending on who is in power and what they do will determine whether civil war happens or there is a reasonable dialogue.

This is NOT what I am hoping for, but unless we get some good leadership in Ottawa (and while we are wishing for ridiculous things that won't happen I want world peace, 1 million dollars, and to meet santa) this is what will happen

If Quebec were to break off, then Alberta could too. They'd make a great 51st state... :D

This is one of the reasons I asked the question in the first place. If Quebec goes, Alberta wil break off and join th U.S. British Columbia would probably do the same, in time.

The Maritime Provinces would also be likely to join the US. What else would P.E. Island, New Foundland, Nova Scotia & New Brunswick do? I doubt they'd want to join with Quebec, and if Quebec didn't want to play ball, it'd be nearly impossible for a "rump Canada" to govern.

If Quebec were to break off, then Alberta could too. They'd make a great 51st state... :D
They'd make a damn big one, that's for sure!

I think political entities are entitled to sovereignity, including independence if the people wish. But it should be done gradually and trying to minimize the negative impact on both sides.

After all, that's the Canadian way.

The Maritime Provinces would also be likely to join the US. What else would P.E. Island, New Foundland, Nova Scotia & New Brunswick do? I doubt they'd want to join with Quebec, and if Quebec didn't want to play ball, it'd be nearly impossible for a "rump Canada" to govern.
Why? I don't see the US having problems governing Alaska or Hawaii and they're much farther away. France has no trouble with St Pierre and Miquelon, some trouble with New Caledonia, but not that much; and the British have no problem holding on to Gibraltar.

hey i'm a mexican, but i lived in montreal, quebec 4 a while and i really dont know why does some ppl want to separate...
Read the link that the thread-starter gave. It might give you some hints.

And, Quebec 4? :confused:

the official language of canada is english & french cuz quebec asked it, now everythin is in both languages.
True, but apparently, the issue is not unifaceted like you make it seem to be.

if u made a referendum to know if ppl want quebec's sovereignity u wud see that not everyone want it, they are comfortable bein canadians.
Good for the people who are comfortable being Canadian. But why should their comfort supercede the discomfort of people who want to be independent?

the flq(fondation liberation quebec) doesnt exist anymore, why? cuz quebec's sovereignity is not a priority to the quebeçois.
Don't assume things. There may be other reasons why the FLQ doesn't exist anymore. And sovereignty is a priority to the Bloc Québécois. Don't think that people in Quebec just don't care anymore.

And, the word "Québécois" does not use a cedilla (that little squigly) on the "c". That cedilla makes it say "sssss".

americans only care for america so what do they know?????
This American doesn't only care about America. He cares also about the rest of the world. Don't group us all into one neat little group and put a label on us. And don't insult my intelligence by saying I wouldn't know anything about this because I'm American.

Fine. Let them form their own country. See how far they go. They have no army, and no trade partners (except for the people who buy Bombardier planes). They won't last very long.

Besides, I'm tired of EVERYTHING being bilingual.
Who says they won't make an army or trade partners once independent? If you assume they won't, then you aren't thinking very clearly.

And bilingualism is good for you. You get to experience other cultures much more intimately. Break free of the manicles that are your native language!

the flq(fondation liberation quebec)
It's the Front de Libération du Québec. Not the Fondation.

And learn to write properly, I can't read what you have written.

Québec should not leave Canada, they would have no money, no army, no Queen :eek: ... and no healthcare (even if it's provincial... ;) )

At the begging at least.

On the tenth day, the tornados will come.
On the twentyth day, the tsunamis will come.
On the thirtyth day... it will come... :eek:

If Québec leaves Canada, I will go live in Ontario. Ottawa seems pretty cool, eh?

The Maritime Provinces would also be likely to join the US. What else would P.E. Island, New Foundland, Nova Scotia & New Brunswick do? I doubt they'd want to join with Quebec, and if Quebec didn't want to play ball, it'd be nearly impossible for a "rump Canada" to govern.

Actually, the Maritimes might form their own little country (Not a financially wise move, perhaps, but one well-liked by the populace). Newfoundland And Labrador might not join, since they tend not to like the other three. Still the idea of the so-called 'Atlantica' (it's not my name, so don't make fun of me for using it. There really is an 'Atlantican' movement here) has swings of popularity. There was even a time when we considered joining up with some of the U.S.'s Eastern Seabord States.

Personally, I think a cesession of Quebec would mean the breakup of the entire country. I love Canada as a whole (Quebec very much included), so I would not want to see that happen.

I just spent a week in Quebec City. And that feels like a whole other country. Its different from the rest of English Canada, and I'd love to go back there. But I'd like to go back to an independant Quebec. Cause I think it deserves it. My ancestors are French Canadians, and if you go farther than that, they were Canadian Indians from Quebec. And this heritage and spending a week their, I consider it the greatest city in the world. And i think they should have sovereignty.

I really don't see a point in splitting up a country, canada is a developed country, everyone has money, good health, everyone can read and write, they have fantastic cities, they have good relationships and connections with other countries. if Quebec were to separate, the whole of canada will start to separate too. meaning that threre will be no more canada, but an Independent Quebec and a USA with more states.

i think they should have sovereignty.
Well, you're wrong, what do you want me to say?

(It's a joke, you can think what you want... well almost :eek: )

Fine. Let them form their own country. See how far they go. They have no army, and no trade partners (except for the people who buy Bombardier planes). They won't last very long.

Besides, I'm tired of EVERYTHING being bilingual.

Sure they would last. They have a huge chunk of your economy and population. It is the rest of Canada that would be in danger of not lasting.

I just spent a week in Quebec City. And that feels like a whole other country. Its different from the rest of English Canada, and I'd love to go back there. But I'd like to go back to an independant Quebec. Cause I think it deserves it. My ancestors are French Canadians, and if you go farther than that, they were Canadian Indians from Quebec. And this heritage and spending a week their, I consider it the greatest city in the world. And i think they should have sovereignty.

Alright, give them Quebec City and everything above it. Since the Nordiques left I don't really care. The Government is being as delicate as possible with Quebec, even though at times they're coming off as the annoying kid being babysat who won't go to bed on time. I'm a New Brunswicker and i can see that separation would be doom. Especially for my province, since some of the crazier francophones in the northern parts might get it into their heads to split the only officially bilingual part of the country right down the language line.

If this does happen, I hope that the US fragments first somehow, so Maine, new Hampshire and Vermont can joi up with "Atlantica" and actually be an alright place with a lobster monopoly.

Fine. Let them form their own country. See how far they go. They have no army, and no trade partners (except for the people who buy Bombardier planes). They won't last very long.

Besides, I'm tired of EVERYTHING being bilingual.

I respect your opinion on this matter, but. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?!??!??! Spend a day in Quebec City, they don't need an army. You see people from all over the world there. Which I take as saying, "Hey, we like these people."

Unlike the US, more than 1 country actually respects Canada. And I guaruntee you that Quebec would get trading partners, the US and Canada would probably trade with them. As well as the UK and France. And what need is there for an army, no one can attack them. They're right in the middle of two of the worlds most powerful countries. No one can get to them. And what the hell does having everything bilingual matter. If you're at a resteraunt and and you what somehting in English, look at the other side of the menu. Or next to the item or wherever its posted. All the signs are also in english, just look at a different part of the sign, or a sign two feet to the right of it.

What im saying is that you are an a**hole.

I really don't see a point in splitting up a country, canada is a developed country, everyone has money, good health, everyone can read and write, they have fantastic cities, they have good relationships and connections with other countries. if Quebec were to separate, the whole of canada will start to separate too. meaning that threre will be no more canada, but an Independent Quebec and a USA with more states.
If Canada split up, then everyone would still have money, good health, and all the rest of that good stuff. The only difference is that there will be more than one independent nation with all that good stuff once Quebec is independent.

And do people really think any provinces will join the US? I doubt they like us enough to do that.

the whole of canada will start to separate too. meaning that threre will be no more canada, but an Independent Quebec and a USA with more states.

Well, IF such an event were to happen...there would be three big chunks. You would have a) Quebec, b) What's left of Canada (ie Ontario), c) And New US states (Alberta, maybe some other Western provinces)

If you're Canadian, the prospect of break-up sucks, but I'm American, and I would love for some of those western ones to join up as I'd really like Alaska to become part of the contiguous states. :p

why would any current Canadian state want to join an inferior nation like the USA?

why would any current Canadian state want to join an inferior nation like the USA?
That's exactly what I was thinking!

why would any current Canadian state want to join an inferior nation like the USA?

Precisely. Most of us Canadians look at the states in the same way that someone looks at a cat box that they don't want to deal with, to leave for whoever stumbles upon it next. Some of the people are alright, but you've got some issues.

At least at the moment, Quebec should not separate because more than half of the Quebec population has voted to stay in Canada. If often doesn't seem that way, because the separatists are very loud, while the federalists are not, but the majority does want to stay.
If the majority ever changes their mind on this, then I see no reason for us to stop them from leaving.

Quebec should be allowed to separate from Canada (in fact, I'd be for Canada separating from Quebec) for a number of very good reasons:

1. First and foremost, about half the population wants to separate to a greater or lesser degree. Although the separatists have not managed to win a referendum on the subject, it seems to only be a matter of time - and a matter of short time at that - before they will win.

2. Quebec is now, and has been for at least half a century, a financial drain on the rest of Canada. Quebecers receive more in transfer payments than they pay into the system. A separate Quebec would save the rest of Canada some money.

3. With Quebec gone, so too could Official Bilingualism go. Supporting OB costs Canadians a fortune, and with Quebec gone there'd be no reason to continue to have a forced, bilingual government, staffed at the senior levels primarily by francophones from Quebec. (NB: this is not to say that people shouldn't learn other languages in school, etc.) The savings in this area would benefit the rest of Canada immensely, and the acrimony that would be removed would improve the entire public service. And before some troll calls me a tete-carre anglo for this one, je parle francais et je travaille au Quebec maintenant.

4. With Quebec gone, there'd be no more doting on Quebec to appease separatists. This will almost certainly result in a stronger confederation for the rest of Canada, return value to the Canadian dollar, and thereby improve the standard of living for all Canadians.

Overall, I can see very little negative that can come to Canada from Quebec separating. I'd even put very few conditions on separation:

1. Citizens of Quebec lose their Canadian citizenship after 5 years. This is a bit unusual (normally, once you're Canadian, you're always Canadian), but seems to be necessary to prevent abuse of our pension systems and international good will. It also provides a closure for everyone... you've separated from Canada, you're not Canadian any more. The 5 year window allows those Quebecers who wish to remain in Canada (or Canadians who wish to leave Canada) to get their affairs together and move.

2. We change our currency. This is a minor annoyance but necessary to ensure their economy is separate from ours.

3. Immediate closure of the border, to the level that our border is closed with the US.

4. Canada forgets about the "Quebec" portion of the debt. It's not worth it. The savings of Quebec leaving will pay off their debt in a relatively short time.

I'd love to see how the Republic of Quebec can do in the global community. I think it would be a real eye opener.

I am completely against the people of Quebec receiving independence because I feel that they think that they are better then english specking canadians simply because they speck french, I am a american who has never
been to Canada.

Ahem. It shows.

I've noticed a lot of postings on the Quebec Indepedence movement on several boards...is a referendum coming up soon?

If Quebec ever does become independent, could the Atlantic states join the United Kingdom? That way, they get to keep the Queen, become part of the 4th largest economy of the world, and don't get absorbed into the United States.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and North America. Doesn't sound too bad!

And bilingualism is good for you. You get to experience other cultures much more intimately. Break free of the manicles that are your native language!
yes Bilingualism is good for personal culture...BUT it should not be mandatory...people who wants to learn other cultures should be encouraged...the others allowed to live in the language of their choice...in the culture of their choice.

some western Canadians are rightfully fed up with "French forced down their throats"...

Quebec Independence shall free doth sides.

and after a few years the relations between Canada & Quebec will be like the relations between USA & Canada were after their independence wars.

tentative and uneasy first...but eventually the 2way economic trade will make them forced partners...Actually 3 way trade.

I bet Quebec will adopt the US dollar and the US postal service...and trade with the US will be very strong right away...

If Quebec ever does become independent, could the Atlantic states join the United Kingdom? That way, they get to keep the Queen, become part of the 4th largest economy of the world, and don't get absorbed into the United States.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and North America. Doesn't sound too bad!

Wow. I'm actually totally for that. Especially if it makes it cheaper to visit the British Isles.

If Quebec ever does become independent, could the Atlantic states join the United Kingdom? That way, they get to keep the Queen, become part of the 4th largest economy of the world, and don't get absorbed into the United States.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and North America. Doesn't sound too bad!the Atlantic Provinces will be like Alaska for the USA...no big deal...

I dont think they will ask to Join The USA...
The UK? thats a very long shot.

I've noticed a lot of postings on the Quebec Indepedence movement on several boards...is a referendum coming up soon?You can see the writings on the Wall...all the way from California or Taiwan...

but for some reason...canadians are not able to see them from Toronto...or Halifax.

must be a quantum or 4th dimension physics phenomena.

It's not that long a shot, if you consider that they already share the same head of state, language and have very similar legal systems. I'm willing to bet that more people in those states would prefer to be associated with the UK than the USA. They'd also have a greater say in government of the United Kingdom, because it is so much smaller than the United States.

It's not that long a shot, if you consider that they already share the same head of state, language and have very similar legal systems. I'm willing to bet that more people in those states would prefer to be associated with the UK than the USA. They'd also have a greater say in government of the United Kingdom, because it is so much smaller than the United States.the head of state you are talking about has less power than your mechanic...

she could be a chimp and it would change nothing in your life.

I'm not Canadian, i'm european, but i want to ask this question, Where is the sense of Patriotism in all you Canadians out there?. your ansestors fought and struggled to form a country which will be home to future generations and thir own offspring, they didn't build a country that would have it's people fighting over land, you're all canadians, share you land, dont fight for it among you, fight for it united against others who threaten it.

If Canada split up, then everyone would still have money, good health, and all the rest of that good stuff. The only difference is that there will be more than one independent nation with all that good stuff once Quebec is independent.

And do people really think any provinces will join the US? I doubt they like us enough to do that.

Whats more bizzare is thinking the US would allow it. Territories are expensive as hell and bring in zero in return. I think there would be no problem with trade and aid though.

I'm not Canadian, i'm european, but i want to ask this question, Where is the sense of Patriotism in all you Canadians out there?. your ansestors fought and struggled to form a country which will be home to future generations and thir own offspring, they didn't build a country that would have it's people fighting over land, you're all canadians, share you land, dont fight for it among you, fight for it united against others who threaten it.Europeans just killed their Constitution...they have no lessons to give.

Liverbreath']Whats more bizzare is thinking the US would allow it. Territories are expensive as hell and bring in zero in return. I think there would be no problem with trade and aid though.The US has been trying to make a state out of PuertoRico for decades...Canadian Provinces have much more value...Industry and skilled labor...

I'm not Canadian, i'm european, but i want to ask this question, Where is the sense of Patriotism in all you Canadians out there?. your ansestors fought and struggled to form a country which will be home to future generations and thir own offspring, they didn't build a country that would have it's people fighting over land, you're all canadians, share you land, dont fight for it among you, fight for it united against others who threaten it.

You'd think! From what I have seen and heard Canadian youth is being taught to hate their traditons and anything associated with Patriotism.

Canadian Provinces have much more value...Industry and skilled labor...

True, you would basically expand the US economy with skilled and educated workers overnight.

Yeah.... what seems no one realizes is that the 'half the populations wants to seperate' is bullcrap.

What the sepratist parties don't realize is that the minute they seperate every single anglo, that provides the money they would need to make it succesful has left their 'nation' for somewhere else. I mean if you lived here as a Canadian first, it scares you, The restricitons on english in Quebec are insane and if they seperated they wouldn't have to offer english services.

I could rant on about this for awile but I shall not.

The US has been trying to make a state out of PuertoRico for decades...Canadian Provinces have much more value...Industry and skilled labor...

Yep, I have a friend from Puerto Rico and asked him why they resist. He said because they get tons of money without the responsibility of the states. They don't have to abide by the laws, building codes, or worry about the taxes. It's total welfare and they won't give it up for nothing.
The US has learned it's lesson the hard way with them. It is not about to happen again.

Liverbreath']You'd think! From what I have seen and heard Canadian youth is being taught to hate their traditons and anything associated with Patriotism.

Hee in Canada we don't have to teach patriotism. Most of us figure it out in our own way once we hit age twenty or so. It's not necessarily what we do but how we do it. Hockey, camping, donuts, canoes, lacrosse, whatever. Some countries treat their history like religion. We treat ours more like a big, fun joke that no one's quite sure of the punch line for.

If Québec leaves Canada, I will go live in Ontario. Ottawa seems pretty cool, eh?
Spare yourself and don't go! It's really not worth your time.

But, I'd hate to see Quebec leave, as I have family there and it'll be a pain in the arse region to have to cross a border to see 'em (when we do).

Liverbreath']You'd think! From what I have seen and heard Canadian youth is being taught to hate their traditons and anything associated with Patriotism.and what have you seen?

Liverbreath']You'd think! From what I have seen and heard Canadian youth is being taught to hate their traditons and anything associated with Patriotism.

Sure, we're patriotic, but we don't like to rub it in everyone's faces, like Americans do. We're humble, quiet people. We just want to live happily in our big country, providing peace-keepig aid to those who need it. If Quebec separates, our country won't be friggin' huge anymore, and we'll have lost the most historic, and possibly beloved part of Canada. I don't mind bilingualism, after all, you're only forced to learn french until grade 9. We haven't treated Quebec too great over the years. Well, centuries. But for most of that time, we were technically British. And you know, the French and British don't have a history of getting along. To the people of Quebec, give us some time. It may seem like we don't like you, but we do. :)

Liverbreath']You'd think! From what I have seen and heard Canadian youth is being taught to hate their traditons and anything associated with Patriotism.
And where did you hear this? From one of those redneck Republicraps in the House of Reps?

and what have you seen?

I know several canadians that are into carpentry and woodturning. They are mostly older, but the impression I get is that kids nowdays are being taught things like globalism in favor of national soverignity, new world order stuff and the like with little or no reguard for canadian culture. It was not put in quite those polite of terms, but that is the bottom line.

Liverbreath']Whats more bizzare is thinking the US would allow it. Territories are expensive as hell and bring in zero in return. I think there would be no problem with trade and aid though.
Who says they'll go in as a territory?

And where did you hear this? From one of those redneck Republicraps in the House of Reps?

I really like posters like you. You prove your oppositions points for them and make your own easily dismissable.

Liverbreath']Yep, I have a friend from Puerto Rico and asked him why they resist. He said because they get tons of money without the responsibility of the states. They don't have to abide by the laws, building codes, or worry about the taxes. It's total welfare and they won't give it up for nothing.
The US has learned it's lesson the hard way with them. It is not about to happen again.
That's because of the way the US tried to govern the island, not as a state or territory, but as a colony, and then they started to build on top of that, then they went "oops!" and now they're stuck.

Who says they'll go in as a territory?

Well you have a point there, but I think there would be a great deal of resistance to becoming a state at least initially. I have to do some more research on the subject, but I understand that Texas was resistant by many accounts and ended up being annexed contrary to law. In fact, I read an article the other day that argues that to this day Texas is still not legally a state. It may have some merit to it.
Either way, going from a part of Canada, to an independent state, to a state of the united states is an incredibly huge and complicated process with uncountable obstructions the entire way.

That's because of the way the US tried to govern the island, not as a state or territory, but as a colony, and then they started to build on top of that, then they went "oops!" and now they're stuck.

They sure are! My friend says that if they ever do become a state, he is going back there immediately. Said he will make millions because all their buildings will have to be gutted or rebuilt becasue they couldn't pass an inspection anywhere in the free world but there.

Why? I don't see the US having problems governing Alaska or Hawaii and they're much farther away. France has no trouble with St Pierre and Miquelon, some trouble with New Caledonia, but not that much; and the British have no problem holding on to Gibraltar.

But in all of those examples, there are no hostile governments in the way, and all are reachable by sea. If Quebec sealed off the St. Lawrence, rump Canada would have no real way to get there by land or sea... and air is expensive.

The Maritime Provinces would also be likely to join the US. What else would P.E. Island, New Foundland, Nova Scotia & New Brunswick do? I doubt they'd want to join with Quebec, and if Quebec didn't want to play ball, it'd be nearly impossible for a "rump Canada" to govern.

Gah. If need be, I'll stop them by force. I'd hate to have a hostage situation on Citadel Hill, but if that's what's needed...

As for Quebec separating, I hope the remaining half realized how doomed they would be if they separated from the rest of us. Maybe we need a practical test...

But in all of those examples, there are no hostile governments in the way, and all are reachable by sea. If Quebec sealed off the St. Lawrence, rump Canada would have no real way to get there by land or sea... and air is expensive.
But the St. Lawrence is already considered an international causeway, used by both the US and Canada. If Quebec decides to close it they'll have problems with both. I don't think they'll want that.

And besides, honestly, no one thinks that if Quebec separates it will become a hostile government. More probably transportation will remain the same, maybe Quebec will charge some sort of tax to move goods through its territory, but that's it.

There are several problems with the whole seperatist issue. First the Seperatists (PQ) in the last referendum were saying that the vote was for 'Soverenty by association' and that it was essentially that quebec would be a self governing colony (for lack of a better term) of Canada, not full blown independance. If they do decide to seperate they have the problem with the First Nations as the Inuit in the North would want to stay in Canada and the Mohawks in the south as well. So a large hunk of northern Quebec and a large area around montreal would stay in Canada.

But this is not the real problem. In the last referendum the canadian dollar fell several points just on the possibility that quebec might leave. If they did indeed vote to leave the dollar would most likely collapse and the canadian economy would too. As a result the US economy would take a hit (Canada being one of the top 3 economic partners with the US) and as a result there would be a global destabilization and the worlds economies would collapse. This may sound very doomsdayish but the great depression in the 30s happened because people got scared and started panic selling their stocks. Also if you take a look at the current world economy or listen to any buisness show they will tell you how events in other countries have effects on the domestic markets.

That is my two cents anyways.

This is one of the reasons I asked the question in the first place. If Quebec goes, Alberta wil break off and join th U.S. British Columbia would probably do the same, in time.
I kinda get a chuckle out of this line of reasoning. Alberta seems to always be complaining that she doesn't get proper recognition within the confines of Canadian Confederation, especially considering that her population is extremely "conservative" in nature. The fact remains that Alberta is a significant role player in Canada, and is a part of a country that only has 10 Provinces. Alberta has 28 seats at the Federal level or 9%, which is representative of her population.

IF Alberta were to separate, and become the 51st State, they would end up with 2 Congressmen in the House of Representatives (less then 1/2 of 1 percent of total), and 2 Senators (1.9% of total). This would give Alberta far less representation than they currently have within Canada. How long would it take for the people of the new State of Alberta to feel alienated from Washington, especially if the Democrats controlled the White House and Congress?

Personally speaking, I do believe that Alberta and Quebec are much stronger within the confines of the Canadian Confederation and are a significant part of this great country.

I kinda get a chuckle out of this line of reasoning. Alberta seems to always be complaining that she doesn't get proper recognition within the confines of Canadian Confederation, especially considering that her population is extremely "conservative" in nature. The fact remains that Alberta is a significant role player in Canada, and is a part of a country that only has 10 Provinces. Alberta has 28 seats at the Federal level or 9%, which is representative of her population.

IF Alberta were to separate, and become the 51st State, they would end up with 2 Congressmen in the House of Representatives (less then 1/2 of 1 percent of total), and 2 Senators (1.9% of total). This would give Alberta far less representation than they currently have within Canada. How long would it take for the people of the new State of Alberta to feel alienated from Washington, especially if the Democrats controlled the White House and Congress?

Personally speaking, I do believe that Alberta and Quebec are much stronger within the confines of the Canadian Confederation and are a significant part of this great country.

If Alberta left they would not join the US and become the 52nd state (do not forget Peurto Rico(Did I spell that correctly?)) because the only reason for them to leave would be for greater control over tax dollars. I think if they left they would leave with the Yukon and NWT and form a country that is increadibly wealthy (after all the reserves in the Beufort Delta rival those in Saudi Arabia)

But the St. Lawrence is already considered an international causeway, used by both the US and Canada. If Quebec decides to close it they'll have problems with both. I don't think they'll want that.

And besides, honestly, no one thinks that if Quebec separates it will become a hostile government. More probably transportation will remain the same, maybe Quebec will charge some sort of tax to move goods through its territory, but that's it.

If there is no Canada (rump Canada w/o Quebec), then the treaty is null and void since Canada is no longer on the other side of the border. Kind of the same thing as when Poland ceased to exist for 123 years...

Hard to say. 10 years ago, who thought that VENEZUELA would get some cahones, eh? ;)

If Alberta left they would not join the US and become the 52nd state (do not forget Peurto Rico(Did I spell that correctly?)) because the only reason for them to leave would be for greater control over tax dollars. I think if they left they would leave with the Yukon and NWT and form a country that is increadibly wealthy (after all the reserves in the Beufort Delta rival those in Saudi Arabia)

It is HIGHLY unlikely that Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, or any other territory will become a state anytime soon.

They should be able to seperate if a clear majority answer a clear question in the affirmative (not that dodgy ambiguous question in the last referendum). But what I don't understand is how the seperatists can argue that Quebec can separate from Canada, but no part of Quebec can separate from Quebec. What if the anglophone regions or First Nations don't want to be part of a separate Quebec? Should they not be allowed to excercise a right to self-determination as well?

It is HIGHLY unlikely that Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, or any other territory will become a state anytime soon.

I think that is as likely as Quebec seperating so its a moot point anyway.

If Alberta left they would not join the US and become the 52nd state (do not forget Peurto Rico(Did I spell that correctly?)) because the only reason for them to leave would be for greater control over tax dollars. I think if they left they would leave with the Yukon and NWT and form a country that is increadibly wealthy (after all the reserves in the Beufort Delta rival those in Saudi Arabia)
Why would Canada give the Yukon and NWT up? They're territories, so they can't vote on this matter. Canada would have to be convinced to give them to Alberta, but I can't see how that would ever come to happen.

Anyway, I think that Canada needs a better system that levels the political playing field for all provinces. Right now, only population counts, which makes almost everybody outside Ontario unhappy. Canada is supposed to be a federation, something more equalitarian for all provinces should be implemented.

Anyway, I think that Canada needs a better system that levels the political playing field for all provinces. Right now, only population counts, which makes almost everybody outside Ontario unhappy. Canada is supposed to be a federation, something more equalitarian for all provinces should be implemented.

The Senate is supposed to level the playing field between the regions, but clearly it is not accomplishing that goal. It should be reformed ...

If there is no Canada (rump Canada w/o Quebec), then the treaty is null and void since Canada is no longer on the other side of the border. Kind of the same thing as when Poland ceased to exist for 123 years...
Perhaps, but something still exists, and that would inherit the resposibilities of Canada. And the US would still be needing to use the St. Lawrence, it's not like Chicago and Duluth will just pack up and leave.

Hard to say. 10 years ago, who thought that VENEZUELA would get some cahones, eh? ;)
And that they would itch too!!

Liverbreath']I know several canadians that are into carpentry and woodturning. They are mostly older, but the impression I get is that kids nowdays are being taught things like globalism in favor of national soverignity, new world order stuff and the like with little or no reguard for canadian culture. first: Canada does export a lot of lumber wood to the US...but is very rare for a carpenter to go south...unless you meant you visited Canada ( and you should...it is a beautiful country...just like Quebec)

second: you got the wrong impression...The Canadian Gov promotes patriotism ad-nauseum...just like most govs do.

but Canadians seem to be more propaganda-resistant.

BTW Quebec independence movement is fueled by Patriotism.

No!

That'll mess up all my maps.

(Yes, believe it or not, my primary objection to Quebec separating is that it'll screw up all the bits involving Canada and the US in my alternate-future story. I'm horribly selfish) However, forming a new country sounds like hard work, and an ideal opportunity for other countries to take advantage of them. 'Oh, sure, Quebec, you can have a loan... at 1000% interest, that is'. [/exaggeration]

All the "What If"s, "Perhaps"es, "Maybe"s, "Suppose"s, and other speculative turns of phrase employed so far in this thread have left me cold. Seperation, at this point, is willful fantasy.

Why not dream up divisions within a Balkanized America?

It's just as (un)likely.

There are several problems with the whole seperatist issue. First the Seperatists (PQ) in the last referendum were saying that the vote was for 'Soverenty by association' and that it was essentially that quebec would be a self governing colony (for lack of a better term) of Canada, not full blown independance.
Oh my GOD...
...quebec wants to become a Canadian Colony?

let them... :D
If they do decide to seperate they have the problem with the First Nations as the Inuit in the North would want to stay in Canada and the Mohawks in the south as well. So a large hunk of northern Quebec and a large area around montreal would stay in Canada.Didnt you just say that All Quebec wants is to become a Canadian Colony...or did I dream that? :confused:
But this is not the real problem. In the last referendum the canadian dollar fell several points just on the possibility that quebec might leave. If they did indeed vote to leave the dollar would most likely collapse and the canadian economy would too. As a result the US economy would take a hit (Canada being one of the top 3 economic partners with the US) and as a result there would be a global destabilization and the worlds economies would collapse.hmmm Okay..."if Quebec gains independence the World will collapse...the poles will melt...the queen will get chikenpox"...

you got dirty-money from the Comandites (Ad-scam) didnt you?

Liverbreath']Sure they would last. They have a huge chunk of your economy and population. It is the rest of Canada that would be in danger of not lasting.

You're mistaking Quebec for Ontario.

Ok, I've heard word that Montreal and surrounding area would be resistant to separation. In fact, most of the actual province would probably stay, which leaves a narrow corridor along the St. Lawrence, passing through Quebec city ofcourse, which would become the newly separated colony. Not leaving it with much, except the river, which would therefore be their only asset. They could stand to gain a lot from the St. Lawrence. I'm exaggerating a bit, I know, but it's a possibilty.
Also, as Rick Mercer said, Canada has a plan if Quebec separates: We'll all join Quebec, have a referendum, and change the name back to Canada. It'll be like this whole thing never happened. :D

Also, Canadians are concerned with global issues, because our own country isn't that bad at the moment. It's time Americans took a glance at how the rest of the world works, and stop "bragging" to everyone that your country is so "great". It's not, ok? America is a classic example of capitalism. You sweep your own problems under the rug, so you can go galivanting around the world, blowing stuff up, and pretending to be the hero. No one cares, just calm down, you're gonna get the rest of us killed. The way America acts on a world stage can be defined as compensation. Clean up your act, and get a new president, then everything will be fine again.
-and that's my paragraph.

I bet Quebec will adopt the US dollar and the US postal service...and trade with the US will be very strong right away...

I don't.

Quebec has a lot of restrictions on commerce that are language based. Among the gems are laws about not being able to sell talking dolls that speak any other language than French, for example.

I don't see a sudden bloom of US companies willing to make French-only products for a market that is actually smaller than the city of Chicago.

Initially, a separate Quebec would probably trade with France, some French colonies, and the rest of Canada (because the rest of Canada would still have the infrastructure to put up with their shit^H^H^H^Hlanguage idiosyncracy). Good trade with the US, beyond what they do now by flogging their electricity and other natural resources, will be a long time coming.

No one can clearly see if seperation will ever occur. It's a hearts vs minds issue. Quebec Nationalism is centred around Quebec City. The leaders of the PQ have stated that if the Province votes for seperation then the whole of Quebec will be seperate, and no part of it will stay with Canada. But realistically this will not happen, if Quebec can leave Canada, then parts of Quebec can leave Quebec.
The "Minds" arguments against seperation are as follows. One of the main problem for the country of Quebec would be the parts that want to leave. This would be the parts nearest on Ontario, especially Hull (because of all the civil servants that work in Ottawa would worry about losing their jobs if they were no longer citizens of Canada), the island of Montreal, and the North (including the Jamas Bay hydro-electric plants). Basically the Country of Quebec could lose over 50% of it citizens and a majority of it's commerce back to the Rest of Canada.
The Province of Quebec receives more in transfer payments from Confederation than it puts into Confederation, so immediately their economy is put under further strain. Plus by staying with the Canadian currency or adopting the US greenback, they lose control of their monetary policy. That is not to mention the fact that they will have to pay the Governmant of Canada for all federal lands and buildings that they nationalize, and of course as part of the seperation agreement they will probably be saddles with 25% of Canada's Naional Debt which would be another C$125 billion.
Of course Quebec would have control of the St Lawrence Seaway for at least a short period of time. The US government is fine with Canada have control of the Seaway, but they might not be so enthusiastic about the Gov't of Quebec controlling it, especially if things start to get nasty between Quebec & the Rest of Canada. So there is the potential for the US to take "temporary" control of the South Shore of the Seaway to ensure that their goods can move to Chicago, Detroit etc.
So there are many arguments against seperation. However the Nationalists use the "Hearts" argument for seperation. They state every thing will be rosy. That the Rest of Canada will act in it's best interests in the divorce and all will be well (though how often does that really happen in divorces?). That their territory is inviolable and will remain whole. And that their economy will remain strong. That the language of five million people on a continent of 400 million English and Spanish speakers will survive and flourish.

I think it's pretty obvious that the "Minds" arguments are a lot stronger than the "Hearts" arguments, but that's the problem, the people of Quebec might just listen to their heart.

As for Alberta separating if Quebec left, I don't see why they would. After all, most of what Alberta cries about is central Canada calling all the shots. With Quebec gone, Alberta would have a lot bigger say in the way things happen in this country. As for industry in Quebec, who's to say all the foreign and English-Canadian investment wouldn't pull out? Bombardier might pack up and leave.

Quebec would separate just in time to miss all the economic benefits of offshore oil and gas coming online off the BC and Atlantic coasts, too.