NationStates Jolt Archive

A Sharia court in Nigeria has passed a death by stoning sentance on a gay man because he's had gay sex. Of course there's nothing wrong with stoning gay people to death. It's only an expression of a different culture. :rolleyes:

www.gay.com/news/article.html?2005/07/11/5

Wow DC...chip on your shoulder today?

Where are these hysterical, "it's not wrong, it's just a different culture" people you are aiming this thread at? Because most people I've seen in any of your recent threads on culture and cultural imperialism seem to think that some things are bad, no matter the cultural 'reasoning', but that doesn't mean the culture as a whole needs to be eradicated.

So other than pointing fingers at phantoms...what are you trying to say?

Wow DC...chip on your shoulder today?

Where are these hysterical, "it's not wrong, it's just a different culture" people you are aiming this thread at? Because most people I've seen in any of your recent threads on culture and cultural imperialism seem to think that some things are bad, no matter the cultural 'reasoning', but that doesn't mean the culture as a whole needs to be eradicated.

So other than pointing fingers at phantoms...what are you trying to say?
Sorry. I realized after I posted that it might be a tad inflamatory. I've posted a request in moderation to change the title. As for the content, it's not that trollish, so I figgured I'd leave it.

So other than pointing fingers at phantoms...what are you trying to say?

He has something to say? :eek: This'll be good!

He has something to say? This'll be good!
The only thing I have to say is that a culture that imposes a penalty of death for being gay isn't equal to more tolerant ones.

No offense DC...but you've been a bit Eutruscaish lately with the articles...I'd love to debate you about something, but clearly (sarcasm aside) we both think the stoning of a man for having gay sex is bad so....?

some things are bad, no matter the cultural 'reasoning', but that doesn't mean the culture as a whole needs to be eradicated.

So you're for treating the symptom rather than the root cause. Yeah, I can see that working.

I think he's trying to say moral relativism is horseshit.

I presume this is a pop at me after my comment on the imperialism thread. And I stand by what i said there, and I'll say it again. I don't agree with it, and it's against everything I balive in, however it is there culture and though I think it's wrong and we should attempt to show them why we think ti's wrong through educationa nd exchange visits ect. we can't march in them and change there culture through 'any means neccary' as you advocate, Drunk commies Deated.

The only thing I have to say is that a culture that imposes a penalty of death for being gay isn't equal to more tolerant ones.

No culture that imposes a penalty of death for anything is worth supporting.

The only thing I have to say is that a culture that imposes a penalty of death for being gay isn't equal to more tolerant ones.
And I would say that a 'culture' that has the death penalty, despite the possibility of putting an innocent person to death is not equal to more 'tolerant' ones.

A culture is not the totality of one law or act, nor can it be judged thusly.

And I would say that a 'culture' that has the death penalty, despite the possibility of putting an innocent person to death is not equal to more 'tolerant' ones.

A culture is not the totality of one law or act, nor can it be judged thusly.
I agree. In theory I'm against the death penalty for any crime. In practice, well, I get emotional.

You're right that a culture is not one act. Nigeria, however, has used Sharia courts to impose death sentances on women accused of having sex outside wedlock and other things that wouldn't and shouldn't be considered crimes in more civilized nations.

we can't march in them and change there culture through 'any means neccary' as you advocate, Drunk commies Deated.
By the way DC...if you're trying to save 'teh gays' from stoning, I don't think you should look to your compatriots to support a 'save teh gays' invasion of Nigeria. In fact, I have no doubt some US Christian fundamentalists quite enjoyed this news story and thought wistfully of the possibility of such 'righteous punishment' for gays in the US. I don't judge your culture by some of your wacky laws and members by the way....

I agree. In theory I'm against the death penalty for any crime. In practice, well, I get emotional.

You're right that a culture is not one act. Nigeria, however, has used Sharia courts to impose death sentances on women accused of having sex outside wedlock and other things that wouldn't and shouldn't be considered crimes in more civilized nations.

And the US has executed children and the mentally incompetent. How shall we judge the US by that?

By the way DC...if you're trying to save 'teh gays' from stoning, I don't think you should look to your compatriots to support a 'save teh gays' invasion of Nigeria. In fact, I have no doubt some US Christian fundamentalists quite enjoyed this news story and thought wistfully of the possibility of such 'righteous punishment' for gays in the US. I don't judge your culture by some of your wacky laws and members by the way....
Indeed.

By the way DC...if you're trying to save 'teh gays' from stoning, I don't think you should look to your compatriots to support a 'save teh gays' invasion of Nigeria. In fact, I have no doubt some US Christian fundamentalists quite enjoyed this news story and thought wistfully of the possibility of such 'righteous punishment' for gays in the US. I don't judge your culture by some of your wacky laws and members by the way....
True, but by condeming violence against people for doing things that don't hurt anyone perhaps we can shame the fundies both in the USA and abroad into adopting a more tolerant culture.

I agree. In theory I'm against the death penalty for any crime. In practice, well, I get emotional.

You're right that a culture is not one act. Nigeria, however, has used Sharia courts to impose death sentances on women accused of having sex outside wedlock and other things that wouldn't and shouldn't be considered crimes in more civilized nations.
Right now religious fundamentalism has a hold on parts of Nigeria. Right now religious fundamentalism has a hold on a lot of parts all over the world. That doesn't mean that all the people having this sort of fundamentalism imposed on them are of one culture. 'Nigerian culture' is not about stoning gays or women. Certain people are interpreting religious texts to justify these abuses. That doesn't make 'Nigerian culture' bad, or inferior, or better, or cuter, or 'anythinger' than any other culture. It makes certain things that go on in Nigeria bad.

Is wife-abuse a part of US culture? Just because it happens? Is that part squished in beside the apple pie?

To a certain extent, I guess it is...but it is no longer pervasive, no because someone invaded you and forced you to respect women...but because men and women in your own country fought to change the underlying attitudes that led to pervasive wife-abuse. They didn't completely win that fight, and new fights need to be addressed...but you don't need someone coming in and FORCING you to change, do you? So why would that be an option for other countries and cultures?

And the US has executed children and the mentally incompetent. How shall we judge the US by that?
Harshly. That's not right either. Perhaps by keeping a spotlight on these issues and laying the blame on those who support such barbaric practices they can be shamed into acting decently.

I think he's trying to say moral relativism is horseshit.
Yeah...is anyone saying it isn't? But that doesn't automatically mean there is some sort of hierarchy of 'better to worse' cultures...

Right now religious fundamentalism has a hold on parts of Nigeria. Right now religious fundamentalism has a hold on a lot of parts all over the world. That doesn't mean that all the people having this sort of fundamentalism imposed on them are of one culture. 'Nigerian culture' is not about stoning gays or women. Certain people are interpreting religious texts to justify these abuses. That doesn't make 'Nigerian culture' bad, or inferior, or better, or cuter, or 'anythinger' than any other culture. It makes certain things that go on in Nigeria bad.

Is wife-abuse a part of US culture? Just because it happens? Is that part squished in beside the apple pie?

To a certain extent, I guess it is...but it is no longer pervasive, no because someone invaded you and forced you to respect women...but because men and women in your own country fought to change the underlying attitudes that led to pervasive wife-abuse. They didn't completely win that fight, and new fights need to be addressed...but you don't need someone coming in and FORCING you to change, do you? So why would that be an option for other countries and cultures?
But wife abuse isn't condoned or promoted by our courts. The general public looks down on a wife beater in the USA.

And is torturing inmates at a prision part of American culture, and detaining them and confiscating there rights? Is the KKK part of American culture? just becasue it happens dosn't mean it is.

So you're for treating the symptom rather than the root cause. Yeah, I can see that working.
Since you completely made up that argument for me, I'll reciprocate:

Oh, so you are for outright eradication of other cultures? Yeah, I can see how that would be a good thing :rolleyes:

Alright, maybe with that out of the way you can actually discuss this issue with me rather than making assumptions? Two-way conversation is much more interesting when the other person is actually participating themselves.

What is the root cause of hatred towards homosexuals...the kind of hatred that would lead to a law like this? Can it be blamed on Nigerian culture alone? Or maybe Islam? If that were true...why is there such hatred towards homosexuals in the US and other Western nations? Culture is much too complex a 'thing' to be even defined well, much less blamed.

True, but by condeming violence against people for doing things that don't hurt anyone perhaps we can shame the fundies both in the USA and abroad into adopting a more tolerant culture.
I agree.

And is torturing inmates at a prision part of American culture, and detaining them and confiscating there rights? Is the KKK part of American culture? just becasue it happens dosn't mean it is.
Ah, but the KKK members who commit crimes and the Abu Graib torturers face criminal prosecution. We don't approve of them.

As for detaining people indefinitely without trial, well that needs to stop. Either they get a trial or they should be let go. I can see waiting until the war in Afghanistan is over to let prisoners captured there return, but nobody should be held forever without trial.

But wife abuse isn't condoned or promoted by our courts. The general public looks down on a wife beater in the USA.
Now. It isn't condoned NOW. It was not always thus. And as you should well be aware, laws are not necessarily created by the people...quite often they are imposed upon them. Can you judge an entire culture by the bad laws that also harm the people who belong to that culture?

Now. It isn't condoned NOW. It was not always thus. And as you should well be aware, laws are not necessarily created by the people...quite often they are imposed upon them. Can you judge an entire culture by the bad laws that also harm the people who belong to that culture?
I think you can, to a great extent, judge a culture by it's laws.

As for detaining people indefinitely without trial, well that needs to stop. Either they get a trial or they should be let go. I can see waiting until the war in Afghanistan is over to let prisoners captured there return, but nobody should be held forever without trial.
And yet it happens. And appears to be legal.

Running around in circles here...

You are familiar with US culture, so you can easily point to the good things about it, and judge whether or not those things outweigh the bad. You are not as familiar with Nigerian culture, and so can not do the same. THAT is the problem when we start trying to 'judge' other cultures. What are our criteria? How similar they are to us? We have a set of cultural criteria that say "this is normal"...but they may not be normal for other people. Your people are individualistic. Mine are communistic (take the politics out of that word for a second). Who is right? Who is wrong?

We can probably agree that people should not be harmed for doing things that harm no one else. We can probably agree on certain human rights that need to be upheld. These things can exist in BOTH our cultures, and yet our cultures can remain different from one another.

I think you can, to a great extent, judge a culture by it's laws.
Careful now....

...and when do you start the judgement? Today? 10 years ago? Can we say, "this culture has improved, declined, improved again, declined" based on the laws that exist at that time? And if so, if you can say, "things have declined", should you not also say, "things can obviously be improved. If there is decline, clearly things were once better and have gotten worse. If we can go backwards, surely we can go forward?"

Laws are a part of culture. So are many, many things. Perhaps to truly continue this discussion, you should give us the definition of culture you are working from.

I agree. In theory I'm against the death penalty for any crime. In practice, well, I get emotional.

You're right that a culture is not one act. Nigeria, however, has used Sharia courts to impose death sentances on women accused of having sex outside wedlock and other things that wouldn't and shouldn't be considered crimes in more civilized nations.

Do you consider Saudi Arabia a "more civilized nation" than Nigeria?

Where are these hysterical, "it's not wrong, it's just a different culture" people you are aiming this thread at?
Fass and Keruvalia.

By the way DC...if you're trying to save 'teh gays' from stoning, I don't think you should look to your compatriots to support a 'save teh gays' invasion of Nigeria. In fact, I have no doubt some US Christian fundamentalists quite enjoyed this news story and thought wistfully of the possibility of such 'righteous punishment' for gays in the US. I don't judge your culture by some of your wacky laws and members by the way....
As I said in the other thread:
The only thing I regret is that the main people in the west who are in favour of cultural imperialism are socially conservative (anti-feminist, patriarchal) Amurcans.

Fass and Keruvalia.


I think Keru just says whatever will piss people off the most. Fass tends to be more sincere...but I haven't seen him say that this sort of thing is 'okay because it's part of someone's culture'....I'll wait for him to put those words in his own mouth:)

So even if that just leaves one poster (and I'm withholding judgement on that)...it's hardly a widely held-opinion...

Wow DC...chip on your shoulder today?

Where are these hysterical, "it's not wrong, it's just a different culture" people you are aiming this thread at? Because most people I've seen in any of your recent threads on culture and cultural imperialism seem to think that some things are bad, no matter the cultural 'reasoning', but that doesn't mean the culture as a whole needs to be eradicated.

So other than pointing fingers at phantoms...what are you trying to say?

not everything is relative... there are absolutes.

In fact, I have no doubt some US Christian fundamentalists quite enjoyed this news story and thought wistfully of the possibility of such 'righteous punishment' for gays in the US. I don't judge your culture by some of your wacky laws and members by the way....

That's a mighty broad stroke of the brush there...

I think he's trying to say moral relativism is horseshit.

Indeed.

Ah, but the KKK members who commit crimes and the Abu Graib torturers face criminal prosecution. We don't approve of them.

As for detaining people indefinitely without trial, well that needs to stop. Either they get a trial or they should be let go. I can see waiting until the war in Afghanistan is over to let prisoners captured there return, but nobody should be held forever without trial.

If POWs can be held until the war is over and cannot be tried, why can't illegal combatants be held until the war is over and why should they be given a trial?

But I digress from the topic. Should we respect other religions? Should we tell other religions what they should and should not believe? The Sharia law is based on the Muslim religion. If we respect their religion, we have no right to dictate their laws unless you believe it is OK to disrespect the religion.

Do you consider Saudi Arabia a "more civilized nation" than Nigeria?
I'm not sure if it's more civilized. I don't know if they still stone gays and women who want to get laid but not married. Anyway, there's not too much difference between how "civilized" I think they are. Saudi police are reputed to use torture, amputations are allowed as punishment for petty crimes like theft, and there's no freedom of religion.

If POWs can be held until the war is over and cannot be tried, why can't illegal combatants be held until the war is over and why should they be given a trial?

But I digress from the topic. Should we respect other religions? Should we tell other religions what they should and should not believe? The Sharia law is based on the Muslim religion. If we respect their religion, we have no right to dictate their laws unless you believe it is OK to disrespect the religion.
When a religion violates human rights, or worse yet, takes over the government and uses it to violate human rights, then I think I have the right to disrespect it.

I'm not sure if it's more civilized. I don't know if they still stone gays and women who want to get laid but not married. Anyway, there's not too much difference between how "civilized" I think they are. Saudi police are reputed to use torture, amputations are allowed as punishment for petty crimes like theft, and there's no freedom of religion.

Saudi has the same Sharia laws. These laws are based on the Muslim religion. It dictates stoning for adultery and homosexual acts. No different from Nigeria. These are the same laws the radical Muslim fundamentalists terrorists seek to impose on the rest of the world.

When a religion violates human rights, or worse yet, takes over the government and uses it to violate human rights, then I think I have the right to disrespect it.

Then you want to impose your own standards on other people, on other religions?

Dont you think it is interesting that he was aquitted for having had intercourse with a younger male, but his previous acts were not acceptable?
From what I have been reading on Islamic law and tradition in alot of muslim cultures it is ok to engage in sexual relations with males if they are young and not senior to you in status, and if you give and not recieve. Mabye he took it and and did'nt just give it because apparently your not gay if you only give it. :confused:

Saudi has the same Sharia laws. These laws are based on the Muslim religion. It dictates stoning for adultery and homosexual acts. No different from Nigeria. These are the same laws the radical Muslim fundamentalists terrorists seek to impose on the rest of the world.
Then they're about the same in my estimation.

Then you want to impose your own standards on other people, on other religions?
Some of them, yeah. I want to impose values like the idea that a person has the right to live his/her life the way he chooses without fear provided that he/she isn't hurting anyone else. I wouldn't mind imposing values like free speech, freedom of religion, and the right to keep and bear arms. I beleive that all humans are entitled to those rights.

Regarding relativism I like my metaphore of orange juice. It's just an idea, so correct me if there are flaws in it.
No matter if you don't like orange juice or you are allergic (even if it can kills you) - it's good as long as it is quite healthy for any fully-functional human organism. If it's putrid than it's not good.

Regarding Nigeria. I'm from post-leninist-marxist Poland. Does it means that Polish culture is prmitive because soviet courts sentenced political prisoners for death? Did German culture was primitive because Nazis killed millions of oppossing civilians and war prisoners? German culture was treated as one of the finest, even during Nazist rule (that means, before they began to be "our common enemy"). That's why I think that we shouldn't judge others because of any government actions.
"Government is government and government is force, left or right, right or left, it's this same old course".

Some of them, yeah. I want to impose values like the idea that a person has the right to live his/her life the way he chooses without fear provided that he/she isn't hurting anyone else. I wouldn't mind imposing values like free speech, freedom of religion, and the right to keep and bear arms. I beleive that all humans are entitled to those rights.


I agree with your personal rights statement above. I was just checking to see where you stand.

Unfortunately, there are some people out there, I think they are called liberals, who are all for not messing with other peoples religions. The old live and let live philosophy, but when the other "culture" wants to stone someone for their sexual activity based on religion, those same liberals say, "Oh no, you can't do that." They don't realize they can't have it both ways. They end up wanting to force their own moral values on other people while saying they do not want to impose their moral values on anyone else.

I agree with your personal rights statement above. I was just checking to see where you stand.

Unfortunately, there are some people out there, I think they are called liberals, who are all for not messing with other peoples religions. The old live and let live philosophy, but when the other "culture" wants to stone someone for their sexual activity based on religion, those same liberals say, "Oh no, you can't do that." They don't realize they can't have it both ways. They end up wanting to force their own moral values on other people while saying they do not want to impose their moral values on anyone else.
I think my position, and apparently yours in this matter, are truly liberal.

I think my position, and apparently yours in this matter, are truly liberal.

:D

A Sharia court in Nigeria has passed a death by stoning sentance on a gay man because he's had gay sex. Of course there's nothing wrong with stoning gay people to death. It's only an expression of a different culture. :rolleyes:

www.gay.com/news/article.html?2005/07/11/5

Thats a good culture right there.

Saudi has the same Sharia laws. These laws are based on the Muslim religion. It dictates stoning for adultery and homosexual acts. No different from Nigeria. These are the same laws the radical Muslim fundamentalists terrorists seek to impose on the rest of the world.

Just to be clear, no terrorist organization I have heard of has ever made it their mission statemnt to convert all nations of the world to Islamic fundamentalism. Most have far more limited goals: Hamas seeks to retain Syrian control of Lebanon, the PLO to (conservative wing) drive Jewish settlers out of Palestinian territory or (radical wing) completely destroy Israel, and Al Queda seeks to 1) drive America out of Saudi Arabia, 2) end American sanctions on Iraq (this was a pre-invasion directive), 3) unify Muslims under a single pan-Arabian Muslim state, and one other thing I can't remember. Al Queda doesn't really care about America so much as it has been outraged by perceived American imperialism in Muslim lands.

I'm not trying to justify what Al Queda does, and I'd be the last person to say their war with America is just or deserved, but their mission statements have never been anything like "destroy freedom." To them, we can have our freedom, so long as we stay the hell out of their Holy Land.

As a side note, it's really gratifying to see people on the left attacking cultural relativism. That bullshit has been an intellectual cancer that has been killing the left for 40 years now. It's about time we started attacking things on the grounds that they are unjust, not that they "don't respect other people's culture."

Just to be clear, no terrorist organization I have heard of has ever made it their mission statemnt to convert all nations of the world to Islamic fundamentalism. Most have far more limited goals: Hamas seeks to retain Syrian control of Lebanon, the PLO to (conservative wing) drive Jewish settlers out of Palestinian territory or (radical wing) completely destroy Israel, and Al Queda seeks to 1) drive America out of Saudi Arabia, 2) end American sanctions on Iraq (this was a pre-invasion directive), 3) unify Muslims under a single pan-Arabian Muslim state, and one other thing I can't remember. Al Queda doesn't really care about America so much as it has been outraged by perceived American imperialism in Muslim lands.

I'm not trying to justify what Al Queda does, and I'd be the last person to say their war with America is just or deserved, but their mission statements have never been anything like "destroy freedom." To them, we can have our freedom, so long as we stay the hell out of their Holy Land.

As a side note, it's really gratifying to see people on the left attacking cultural relativism. That bullshit has been an intellectual cancer that has been killing the left for 40 years now. It's about time we started attacking things on the grounds that they are unjust, not that they "don't respect other people's culture."
Personally I'm pretty certain that Osama wants to rule over a world-wide muslim caliphate.

....and Al Queda seeks to 1) drive America out of Saudi Arabia, 2) end American sanctions on Iraq (this was a pre-invasion directive), 3) unify Muslims under a single pan-Arabian Muslim state, and one other thing I can't remember.

The thing you cannot remember is world domination by the Muslim religion.

Do they want us outr of Jerusalem too? Because Jerusalem was holy to Jews and Christians long before Islam was founded and if history is correct they have been fighting and bitching about infidels in Jerusalem since Muhammad founded Islam. I don't seem to recall hearing about any western encroachment into Mecca.

That's a mighty broad stroke of the brush there...
Other than putting 'some' in capital letters, I'm not sure how to make it any more clear that you're wrong.

When a religion violates human rights, or worse yet, takes over the government and uses it to violate human rights, then I think I have the right to disrespect it.
But a religion does not alone a culture make.

But a religion does not alone a culture make.
How about when it takes over the law and the rules of how people interact, as is the case in some sharia countries?

Some of them, yeah. I want to impose values like the idea that a person has the right to live his/her life the way he chooses without fear provided that he/she isn't hurting anyone else. I wouldn't mind imposing values like free speech, freedom of religion, and the right to keep and bear arms. I beleive that all humans are entitled to those rights.
Alright. But this is a far cry from cultural imperialism (which is kind of how you started out...). As I said...cultures can ALL have these things (in a perfect world) and still be different.

Alright. But this is a far cry from cultural imperialism (which is kind of how you started out...). As I said...cultures can ALL have these things (in a perfect world) and still be different.
Yeah, but I think we should stamp out the parts of other cultures that deny these basic human rights. Is that culturally imperialistic enough for you?

How about when it takes over the law and the rules of how people interact, as is the case in some sharia countries?
Let me put it this way.

When the Europeans came and killed my people, shoved them onto small plots of land, forced them to speak English or French, converted them by force to Christianity, punished them for traditional cultural practices, we still survived. Our culture was changed, but it did not die. People living in unjust times are not at fault because of some cultural flaw. The surge in Islamic fundamentalism and imposition of Shari'a law is something that ebbs and flows. It will impact the culture, absolutely...but it can not subsume it.

Yeah, but I think we should stamp out the parts of other cultures that deny these basic human rights. Is that culturally imperialistic enough for you?
As long as you're going for PARTS and not the WHOLE, I'm good :D

And as long as you don't think building a thousand McDs in Nigeria is part of encouraging human rights...

And now I need to know...when you say, 'stamp out'....how exactly?

Edit: damn, it's time to go home...catch this response tomorrow!

The thing you cannot remember is world domination by the Muslim religion.

Actually, I'm fairly certain it has to do with American favoritism of Israel, but I'm not positive.

As long as you're going for PARTS and not the WHOLE, I'm good :D

And as long as you don't think building a thousand McDs in Nigeria is part of encouraging human rights...
That would be inhuman. Those people have enough trouble getting decent food on a regular basis.

We'll build a million Checkers franchises instead.

And now I need to know...when you say, 'stamp out'....how exactly?

Edit: damn, it's time to go home...catch this response tomorrow!
Through flooding them with media images that directly challenge their concept of morality, publicly shaming them when they do stuff like stoning gays, and placing economic and political pressure on their governments to change things. Bloodshed will only be necessary if they attack us.

Through flooding them with media images that directly challenge their concept of morality, publicly shaming them when they do stuff like stoning gays, and placing economic and political pressure on their governments to change things. Bloodshed will only be necessary if they attack us.

Their concept of morality is based on the Koran, which to them is the literal word of God. You are not going to change their concept of morality any more than you are going to change the concept of morality of a fundamentalist Christian who bases their morality on the inspired word of God.

You cannot flood them with media images because they control the media in their country. If you try to flood the rest of the world with the media images, either they won't care or they will accuse you of trying to present their religion in a negative light.

You cannot publicly shame them, they are publicly shaming the person they are stoning. Remember it is the people who are doing the stoning; they are carrying out the sentence, not the government.

Political and economic pressure? I don't recall any instance where this has worked. Hell, it hasn't worked against Cuba and it didn't work against Iraq, or North Korea.

It is their country, their religion, and their law. There is little we can do and I do not recommend anyone invade them just because they have chosen to govern themselves under Sharia law.

Their concept of morality is based on the Koran, which to them is the literal word of God. You are not going to change their concept of morality any more than you are going to change the concept of morality of a fundamentalist Christian who bases their morality on the inspired word of God.

You cannot flood them with media images because they control the media in their country. If you try to flood the rest of the world with the media images, either they won't care or they will accuse you of trying to present their religion in a negative light.

You cannot publicly shame them, they are publicly shaming the person they are stoning. Remember it is the people who are doing the stoning; they are carrying out the sentence, not the government.

Political and economic pressure? I don't recall any instance where this has worked. Hell, it hasn't worked against Cuba and it didn't work against Iraq, or North Korea.

It is their country, their religion, and their law. There is little we can do and I do not recommend anyone invade them just because they have chosen to govern themselves under Sharia law.
1) Then why do so many conservative Christians argue that the media is a bad influence on their children? Maybe it won't reach this generation, but the next may be way more tolerant.

2) I have no problem with letting them say I portray their religion in a negative light. When it does something negative I will portray it that way.

3) Every population cares at least a little about how the world views them.

4) How about the Soviet Union? We didn't have to fight them. We're offering a better way. Given the chance and a couple generations to consider their options I think they'll embrace it.

Anyway, I'm a little tired. Been posting and working all day and it's about quitting time. See y'all later.

Just to be clear, no terrorist organization I have heard of has ever made it their mission statemnt to convert all nations of the world to Islamic fundamentalism.

Then you haven't been paying attention.

http://www.khilafah.com

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=7064&TagID=24

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=1437&TagID=2

The author of the two articles linked to above was also given the opportunity to write an editorial for the oh so unbiased Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1527323,00.html

Now isn't that nice.

This whole subject saddens meat the lack of tolerance in human beings toward eachother :(

Ah, but the KKK members who commit crimes and the Abu Graib torturers face criminal prosecution. We don't approve of them.

As for detaining people indefinitely without trial, well that needs to stop. Either they get a trial or they should be let go. I can see waiting until the war in Afghanistan is over to let prisoners captured there return, but nobody should be held forever without trial.
It was a refrence to Guantanimo bay

A Sharia court in Nigeria has passed a death by stoning sentance on a gay man because he's had gay sex. Of course there's nothing wrong with stoning gay people to death. It's only an expression of a different culture. :rolleyes:

www.gay.com/news/article.html?2005/07/11/5

Sure glad that's a 3rd world country.

Fass tends to be more sincere...but I haven't seen him say that this sort of thing is 'okay because it's part of someone's culture'....I'll wait for him to put those words in his own mouth:)

So even if that just leaves one poster (and I'm withholding judgement on that)...it's hardly a widely held-opinion...

(Pardon the delayed responce - this thread started way past my bedtime (CET/GMT +1) and I was unable to participate directly for as long as I would have wished.)

Thank you Sinuhue for withholding judgement on account of being ignorant of the matter you are to have judged - this thread is a perfect example of how rare a phenomenon this sort of common sense is.

Had Swimmingpool truly read what I had written in this thread, s/he would have seen that I had already condemned the death penalty everywhere and for any crime, not only in Nigeria, and not only because it is an Islamic death sentence, and not only because it is a fellow gay man that is faced with it. Such feebleness of conviction is better suited for others, imnho.

What I have refused to do, and will so continue, is to support this condemnation of Nigerian culture based in ignorance of said culture and what the situation with Shari'a law is in Nigeria (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1600804.stm) - the starter of this thread would do well to investigate the aspects of federalism in the Nigerian state before trying to judge Nigerian culture over this singular matter, especially as his own country's culture can be judged just as harshly and swiftly in the same uninformed manner.