NationStates Jolt Archive

I've got some questions to raise around the issue of the Talmud.

If I'm right, the Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (well, collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism ("My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah."). Because they are not traffickers in Talmudic tradition, the black Ethiopian Jews are discriminated against and have been forbidden by law to perform marriages, funerals and other services in Israel. There is a Jewish sect which makes considerable effort to ignore the Talmud and obey to the Old Testament alone, (Karaites?) a group which, historically, has been most hated and severely persecuted by orthodox Jewish rabbinate.

Which is all cool, except the Talmud is, well, evil and Jew Supremacist. And in places a bit mad.

Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b). Sanhedrin 76a. God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Gittin 69a . To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix with honey and eat it.

Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

Yebamoth 59b. A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that the Talmudic sage Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with. On one of his whorehouse romps, Rabbi Eleazar leanred that there was one particular prostitute residing in a whorehouse near the sea, who would receive a bag of money for her services. He took a bag of money and went to her, crossing seven rivers to do so. During their intercourse the prostitute farted. After this the whore told Rabbi Eleazar: "Just as this gas will never return to my anus, Rabbi Eleazar will never get to heaven."

Hagigah 27a. States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

Gittin 70a. The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."

Gittin 69b. To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog's excrement as it loosens the limbs."

Pesahim 111a. It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads.

Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave.

Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed").

From Baba Mezia 114b: ""A Jewish priest was standing in a graveyard. When asked why he was standing there in apparent violation of the Mosaic law, he replied that it was permissible, since the law only prohibits Jews from coming into contact with the graves of humans (Adamites), and he was standing in a gentile graveyard. For it has been taught by Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: 'The graves of gentiles [goyim] do not defile. For it is written, 'And ye my flock, the flock of my pastures, are men (Adam)' (Ezekiel 34:31); only ye are designated men (Adam)."

In Berakoth 58a the Talmud uses Ezekiel 23:20 as proof of the sub-human status of gentiles. It also teaches that anyone (even a Jewish man) who reveals this Talmudic teaching about non-Jews deserves death, since revealing it makes Gentiles wrathful and causes the repression of Judaism

Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Moznaim Publishing Corporation, Brooklyn, New York, 1990, Chapter 10, English Translation), p. 184: "Accordingly, if we see an idolater (gentile) being swept away or drowning in the river, we should not help him. If we see that his life is in danger, we should not save him." The Hebrew text of the Feldheim 1981 edition of Mishnah Torah states this as well.

Immediately after Maimonides' admonition that it is a duty for Jews not to save a drowning or perishing gentile, he informs us of the Talmudic duty of Jews towards Christians, and also towards Jews who deny the Talmud. Maimonides, Mishnah Torah, (Chapter 10), p. 184:

"It is a mitzvah [religious duty], however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot."

Later editions of the Talmud pretty blatantly attack Christians.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus' mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

A passage from Sanhedrin 106 seems to gloat over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.

The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase:

"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."

This was made famous in Schindler's List. However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.

In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.

In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.

According to Maimonides' Principles, p. 5, Maimonides (Moses) "spent twelve years extracting every decision and law from the Talmud, and arranging them all into 14 systematic volumes. The work was finally completed in 1180, and was called Mishnah Torah, or "Code of the Torah."

Menahoth 43b-44a. A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a gentile, a woman or a slave.



I have my own prayer: Thank you God for sending Christ to abolish the Old Law which had been corrupted and perverted by men seeking their own interests instead of following your will.

I have my own paryer too, which goes for any religion:

"Dear God, please protect me from your followers. Amen."

I wish I had time to debate this with you, as I see you have taken some time to type this up. But as much as I'd like to go through every one of your citations, I'm really not up to it now. I can see that some of your interpretations are misleading at best. However, that's not to say that there is no truth to what you're getting at.

Indeed, in many ancient Hebrew texts are passages that appear chauvanistic, as you've painstakingly illustrated here. However, this hardly translates to modern Jewry, most of which is much more keen to accept the universal interpretation of such passages like the one about saving a life. I'm going to be pragmatic and say that even if Jews as a whole were evil, they've never acted on that impulse. Of course, the fact is that only some Jews are evil, just like people in every other group.

As the Talmud, or 'Oral Torah,' is in itself an interpretation, every Jew today makes their own interpretation of the document. Also, as not everyone knows the laws of their country to the letter, I'd say that most (American) Jews are pretty ignorant of the many passages of the Talmud.

Also, there is no Jewish concept of hell. You need to fix that bit.

I have my own prayer: Thank you God for sending Christ to abolish the Old Law which had been corrupted and perverted by men seeking their own interests instead of following your will.

Yes because we all know that the christians aren't curropt and they don't have arbitrary laws either? I mean I just got done stoning my brother becuase he didn't clean his room......


Anyway, This smells like troll to me....

Yup, we're evil. Evil evil evil. Now then, bow down to the New World Order, as we take over the world, and..... well we haven't really got past that point yet. See you when I rule Pluto.

I wish I had time to debate this with you, as I see you have taken some time to type this up. But as much as I'd like to go through every one of your citations, I'm really not up to it now. I can see that some of your interpretations are misleading at best. However, that's not to say that there is no truth to what you're getting at.

Indeed, in many ancient Hebrew texts are passages that appear chauvanistic, as you've painstakingly illustrated here. However, this hardly translates to modern Jewry, most of which is much more keen to accept the universal interpretation of such passages like the one about saving a life. I'm going to be pragmatic and say that even if Jews as a whole were evil, they've never acted on that impulse. Of course, the fact is that only some Jews are evil, just like people in every other group.

As the Talmud, or 'Oral Torah,' is in itself an interpretation, every Jew today makes their own interpretation of the document. Also, as not everyone knows the laws of their country to the letter, I'd say that most (American) Jews are pretty ignorant of the many passages of the Talmud.

Also, there is no Jewish concept of hell. You need to fix that bit.

Hey, much of this only recently came to my attention in any detail, I'm eager to debate the issues, I'm open to learning.

And I hope you'll note I'm not calling Jews evil, I'm saying what their religion teaches seems to be. Also, I don't really think saying "Hey, modern Jewry dosen't do that!" is much defence. All that means is that they're picking and choosing and reinterpreting--essentially going about being Jewish in a half-assed way. ;)

Yup, we're evil. Evil evil evil. Now then, bow down to the New World Order, as we take over the world, and..... well we haven't really got past that point yet. See you when I rule Pluto.

That's a skillfull avoidance of addressing the actual issues raised. I tip my cap to you, sir.

why does everybody have to talk about religion on the forums? its like your trying to offend people

Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

i like this one

why does everybody have to talk about religion on the forums? its like your trying to offend people

What, because debating the validity of a given ideology is inherently offensive?

all religions get corrupted because all men are fallable. Oral traditions are perticularly prone to this, as are those held only by a small elite group. This doesn't mean there are no truths in them, only that they need to be found within the whole.

That's a skillfull avoidance of addressing the actual issues raised. I tip my cap to you, sir.
What exactly do you want me to say? You're claiming my religion is evil and then expect a civilised debate? :rolleyes:

If I'm right, the Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (well, collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism ("My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah.").

Mmmm, no, sorry, not right. The Talmud doesn’t not supersede the bible, it is merely an interpretation. It has no right to change any of the laws in the bible, just help clarify those that are there.

And I don't know about most of these (how do you say 'fart' in Aramaic or ancient Hebrew?), but the one about the rabbi beating God in the argument is really interesting, and quite pertinent.

The story goes (very roughly) as such: There is an argument between the rabbis, where all but one rabbi thinks one way, and the one rabbi calls to heaven to back him up. A heavenly voice then comes down from the sky, and tells the rabbis to listen to the lone rabbi. One of the rabbis from the majority stands up and says, “It is not in heaven!” (a quote from somewhere in Deuteronomy). This, apparently, wins the argument.
What’s the point of this story? That the law is no longer in God’s hands, because he gave the laws to the people already and to change it would admit an imperfection in the laws. “It is not in heaven” means that it is up to the people to interpret the laws as they see is right. Because, technically, the Talmud was given at the same time the bible was, those laws are equally open to personal interpretation. So even if the Talmud says all these (not saying it does, not saying it doesn’t) it no longer matters. It is up to the people to read the laws and live in the moral way they think they should.

All religions are evil. Only people can be good, or at least not totally evil.

I have my own paryer too, which goes for any religion:

"Dear God, please protect me from your followers. Amen."

Ha, thats great!

What exactly do you want me to say? You're claiming my religion is evil and then expect a civilised debate? :rolleyes:

Well, yes. I've give a list of things in the Talmud that strike me as being evil practices. You in turn can attempt to explain away or justify the points raised.

Or you can fail to argue the points and instead attempt to discredit me by making ad hominem attacks, trying to make it look as though I'm making the unreasonable blanket statement that @|| t3h J3w5 R 3v|L.

Goodbye, have a nice flight from debate.

Here's a link I found by google to a great explanation to the story I mentioned. You can read the whole thing, or just search for "it is not in heaven" to get to the paragraph about that story. But it is an interesting sermon, at least skim the start of it.

Link (http://www.beth-elsa.org/dk100603.htm)

Yes, I know, those evil, money-grabbing jews made up the holohoax (see, we pure Aryans can be witty and make up cool phrases) to enslave the mighty Aryan race and the terrible talmud proves it. We must retake the banks and media from the untermenschen and launch a glorius Race War to bring forth the Golden Age of the Holy Aryan Race.

Thank you for bringing this new evidence to light, UJ. Your contributions to Aryan Supremacy are great. We shall march together in the war against rap and stop the pawns of the jews from raping our pure Aryan women as they are genetically programmed to do. The jew cannot be trusted and we will slay it righteously.

Sieg Heil, 14/88, Aryan brother!

Yes, I know, those evil, money-grabbing jews made up the holohoax (see, we pure Aryans can be witty and make up cool phrases) to enslave the mighty Aryan race and the terrible talmud proves it. We must retake the banks and media from the untermenschen and launch a glorius Race War to bring forth the Golden Age of the Holy Aryan Race.

Thank you for bringing this new evidence to light, UJ. Your contributions to Aryan Supremacy are great. We shall march together in the war against rap and stop the pawns of the jews from raping our pure Aryan women as they are genetically programmed to do. The jew cannot be trusted and we will slay it righteously.

Sieg Heil, 14/88, Aryan brother!

Holocaust Card! I choose YOU!!!!!!11

Cretin. This is among the worst kinds of stupidy. What's with the white-bashing? Why drag the Third Reich into this? Did it have anything to do with anything in this thread, cretin-boy? Does it? No? I hadn't thought so.

Just shut your mouth. You obviously have nothing of import to say.

Holocaust Card! I choose YOU!!!!!!11

Cretin. This is among the worst kinds of stupidy. What's with the white-bashing? Why drag the Third Reich into this? Did it have anything to do with anything in this thread, cretin-boy? Does it? No? I hadn't thought so.

Just shut your mouth. You obviously have nothing of import to say.

I call that flaming plus flame baiting. (His post.)

Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.



i like this one

isnt this one everyone follows? what else explains the popularity of las vegas and atlantic city?

isnt this one everyone follows? what else explains the popularity of las vegas and atlantic city?

Yeah, but there are people who actually live in New Jersey.

Holocaust Card! I choose YOU!!!!!!11

Cretin. This is among the worst kinds of stupidy. What's with the white-bashing? Why drag the Third Reich into this? Did it have anything to do with anything in this thread, cretin-boy? Does it? No? I hadn't thought so.

Just shut your mouth. You obviously have nothing of import to say.

What? You're advocating nazism, so I'm going to make fun of nazism. I don't see why that's a problem. Surely your ideology isn't so flimsy that a little satire won't do it in.

Well, yes. I've give a list of things in the Talmud that strike me as being evil practices. You in turn can attempt to explain away or justify the points raised.

Or you can fail to argue the points and instead attempt to discredit me by making ad hominem attacks, trying to make it look as though I'm making the unreasonable blanket statement that @|| t3h J3w5 R 3v|L.

Goodbye, have a nice flight from debate.


I read over Sanctaphrax's post and not one word of it was in any way an ad hominen attack directed at you. In fact it seems to me that you're the one attacking other people in this thread.

Personally, I know of enough ridiculous phrases in the New Testament, Quran, Granth Sahib, and in fact every other holy book, that the existence of similar evils in the Talmud is rendered meaningless. It tells me something about religion in general, not just the Jewish faith.

If I'm right, the Talmud is Judaism's holiest book

Nope. Torah is Judaism's holiest book. Talmud is non-essiential. It is commentary and interpretation. It's like saying "The Davinci Code" is Christianity's holiest book.

The Talmud is a collection of discussions on various topics of Jewish law, but not all of the material in every discussion: 1) represents the majority view; 2) applies today; 3) was meant to be taken seriously.

Now on to the quotes:

Moed Kattan 17a: If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

What it actually says: Rabbi Ila'i said: If a person is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known, dress in black clothes, cover his head in black, and do what his heart desires so that G-d's name will not be desecrated.

A "person" ... it doesn't say "Jew".This person is not directly told "You can't do it." That advice to a person steeped in desire is meaningless because the person has lost control of his actions. Rather, the person is bidden to first delay his intended actions by going to a city where he is not known. This lengthy trip will serve as a cooling off period. He is then told to dress humbly which should further serve as a reminder of what he should be doing compared to what he plans on doing. Rather than offering carte blanche permission to sin, the Talmud is suggesting a form of indirect rebuke to prevent the person from sinning [see Rashi in the name of Rav Hai Gaon and Chiddushei HaRan; Tosafot, Kiddushin 40a].

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

The statement that "whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell [Erubin 21b]" is not even found in the Talmud. The correct statement is "whosoever transgresses the words of the Scribes is liable for the death penalty." First, not every statement of the Rabbis falls in the category under discussion; and second, this is a typical example of exaggerated language -- there was no death penalty for violating a non-Torah law, but the Sages wanted to emphasize the importance of obeying the metaphorical fences they constructed around serious Torah prohibitions, in order to prevent people from accidentally violating the Torah law.

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (gentile) hits a Jew, the gentile must be killed.

The context for that is a midrashic (non-legal) discussion of Moses killing the Egyptian overseer. From that story, Rabbi Hanina learns that if an idolater hits a Jew, he is worthy of death, but the Talmud does not specify that the death penalty is dealt by a human court -- rather, the Code of Maimonides notes that the death penalty is dealt by the hand of God. He also translates Proverbs 20:25 midrashically as, "One who hits a person (R. Hanina understands this word as referring to an Israelite) attacks the Holy One." Incidentally, in the religious traditions that believe the Hebrew Bible is sacred, the mere fact that humanity is created in the image of God means that one who strikes a human being at the very least strike the image of God.


Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.


Talmud, Sanhedrin 57A, the editor notes that "not a few of these harsh utterances were the natural result of Jewish persecution by the Romans, and must be understood in that light. In actual practice, these dicta were certainly never acted upon, and it is significant that a commission of Roman officers, after investigating Jewish law in its relation to Gentiles, took exception to only two laws, one relating to the damage done by a goring ox, and the other permitting a Jew the use of property stolen from a Gentile. Rabbi Gamliel repealed this latter law."

Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b. "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

While those unused to these Talmudic discussions might be taken aback by the use of euphemisms, the discussion here relates to the dowry for virgins and non-virgins. A virgin receives a higher dowry. While the tell-tale sign of virginity is the release of blood due to the breaking of the hyman on the wedding night, there are occasions when the hyman has already been broken such as when the woman suffered an injury. The Talmud here adds that a sexual act with a male minor is not considered to be a loss of virginity because one of the participants is not fully active. While the female's hyman may have been broken, she has not engaged in what can be classified as a sexual act (although it is certainly child abuse).

The Talmud continues that a sexual act between a male adult and a female under the age of three is also not considered a loss of virginity (although it is child abuse). Since the girl is too young for her hyman to be broken, she is still considered a virgin.

Nowhere is the Talmud permitting such behavior. Sex outside of a marriage is strictly forbidden (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut 1:4, Hilchot Na'arah Betulah 2:17; Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 26:1, 177:5) as is this obvious case of child abuse. The Talmud is only discussing ex post facto what would happen if such a case arose.

The same usage occurs in the passage in Talmud Avodah Zarah 37a. The Talmud states that at the age of three a girl is capable of participating in a sexual act. However, that act is not permissible. See also Jerusalem Talmud Ketuvot 1:2 (4b).

Shabbath 41a. The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

Oh come on ... have you never taken a health class?

Anyway, this is wearisome. Someone else take over. I have other things to worry about.

Wow .. good job Keruvalia.

As usual, Check and Mate :D

Ancient Hebrew, hah. The ancient Sith teachings make the Hebrew teachings look like a Disney movie.

Wow .. good job Keruvalia.

As usual, Check and Mate :D

Yes, well, I've studied this mess my whole life. Read it, took classes, read it again, researched it, committed much of it to memory, and heard these same old jewwatch.com and nukeisrael.com "arguments" ever since junior high.

It's like my defense of Qur'an. It's really just the same old stuff over and over again. I can post and post and post and explain and enlighten and prove and show, but there will always be the next person in line with a fistful of the same old wrongly translated/misinterpreted/out of context quotes and a misguided agenda.

I can refute every single thing from the original post, and have done so time and time and time again ... but I'm tired. I shouldn't have to anymore.

So, my final word to the OP is this: GOOGLE!

If you find a quote from Talmud on davidduke.com, you can almost invariably bet that something's not quite right about it. The Talmud has been under scrutiny for 2000 years. The information (and misinformation) is already out there. One of God's greatest commandments was to learn all that is learnable. Since God only helps those who help themselves, why shouldn't I do the same?

What? You're advocating nazism, so I'm going to make fun of nazism. I don't see why that's a problem. Surely your ideology isn't so flimsy that a little satire won't do it in.
No, he isn't. He's discussing the Talmud. He made no statement about Judaism. He only made a statement about the Talmud. If you took the time to read his original post, you'd know that.

I call that flaming plus flame baiting. (His post.)

I call the post it was in response to flaming plus flame-baiting.

What? You're advocating nazism, so I'm going to make fun of nazism. I don't see why that's a problem. Surely your ideology isn't so flimsy that a little satire won't do it in.

I'm advocating no such thing. Nevermind advocation of Nazism, find me a reference to it.

Kervalia: Thank you. Someone actually responding to the points at hand. I was sceptical of the exact accuracy of a lot of the things here listed. People reading through the thread as a whole and actually paying attention to the original post would see I was raising a question, requiring an answer.

Your post, to a degree, has answered me.

Well, yes. I've give a list of things in the Talmud that strike me as being evil practices. You in turn can attempt to explain away or justify the points raised.

Or you can fail to argue the points and instead attempt to discredit me by making ad hominem attacks, trying to make it look as though I'm making the unreasonable blanket statement that @|| t3h J3w5 R 3v|L.

Goodbye, have a nice flight from debate.

Which are your sources for saying all that BS? I bet you've never even seen a single Talmud book. Nor a Torah, for that matter. You merely copy-pasted from a source that the writers (or copy-pasters), very likely, don't know a damned thing about aramaic, or hebrew (And they are obviously biased). Don't tell me you came to this conclusion by yourself, that would be damn funny.

Even worse, you're not citing the goods the Talmud teaches the jews to do, like saving a life is much more important than the Torah.

The worst thing is that you say: "All jews discriminate ethiopian jews". For someone that makes the generalizing statement of: "Jews are thought to be evil", I know I can't ask a lot, but come on UJ, you can do better than that.

If you ask any jew, even the one that knows only just a little bit about their faith, they will say the Torah is the holiest book, ever, according to Judaism.

Kervalia: Thank you. Someone actually responding to the points at hand. I was sceptical of the exact accuracy of a lot of the things here listed. People reading through the thread as a whole and actually paying attention to the original post would see I was raising a question, requiring an answer.


Well I'd give you more, but I just can't. It's been a rough week for me.

However, much - if not all - has been answered. :)

http://www.frum.org/talmud/index.asp

That's a good place to start and it will lead you to other sites.

Keruvalia explained it rather well. You could do the same, with Christian or Islamic scripture, but Christian and Muslim scholars have a substantial amount of information and knowledge, which the typical person cannot gain from Googling or simply reading the scripture. That's why, for example, Judaism emphasizes study in Judaism, not simply reading the scripture.

Anyway, one more thing I have to say to Jews and non-Jews: Assume the best of others here. That's one teaching in Judaism, but I believe it's relevant to all people.

You don't know that Unified Japan is a racist. Nor did Unified Japan know that Judaism was an "evil," religion. Assuming the best of others can sometimes be naive, but it's the way to be certain you aren't falsely charging others of things they haven't done.

We're often ignorant, but don't recognize the extent of our ignorance. Even if you're offended by certain statements, don't charge anyone with anti-semitism, Jewish supremacy, or any religion of being "evil," even if you know plenty of facts. Because there's always information you don't know and there's nothing to be gained from making potentially-hurtful assumptions.

If you ask any jew, even the one that knows only just a little bit about their faith, they will say the Torah is the holiest book, ever, according to Judaism.

If I'm right, the Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (well, collection of books).

Note the if. I was posing a question. If the statement that the Talmud trumps the Torah is incorrect, thank you for pointing that out. However: "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah." did suggest to me that the Talmud took precedence. What's up with this, Yid'? I'm asking out of curiosity.

I bet you've never even seen a single Talmud book. Nor a Torah, for that matter.

Well then you just lost your chips, my friend. I've seen part of the Talmud, but I wasn't able to scrutinise the thing. I own a Torah.

You merely copy-pasted from a source that the writers (or copy-pasters), very likely, don't know a damned thing about aramaic, or hebrew (And they are obviously biased). Don't tell me you came to this conclusion by yourself, that would be damn funny.

I know some about Aramaic and Hebrew. I did copy and paste from elsewhere where a number of points are concerned. Hence: I've got some questions to raise around the issue of the Talmud. and Hey, much of this only recently came to my attention in any detail, I'm eager to debate the issues, I'm open to learning.

I realise the people who originally collated this stuff had an (anti-semetic) agenda. I mean, that's as obvious as the nose on your face. However, I'm not in the habit of dismissing the content of anything out of hand. Hence, this thread. The conclusions I drew were based upon the text I had. And now I ask for further information.

The worst thing is that you say: "All jews discriminate ethiopian jews". For someone that makes the generalizing statement of: "Jews are thought to be evil" I know I can't ask a lot

Now this, Yid', I take exception to. It's a lie. You're a liar. What are you Yiddnland? A lying liar, you say? Who is telling lies? I agree.

"Because they are not traffickers in Talmudic tradition, the black Ethiopian Jews are discriminated against and have been forbidden by law to perform marriages, funerals and other services in Israel. " does categorically not translate to "All jews discriminate ethiopian jews". This is pure, refined BS on your part.

For someone that makes the generalizing statement of: "Jews are thought to be evil" indeed. What a load. I challenge you to find anything even approaching this fictional "generalizing statement" and put it into context.

Well I'd give you more, but I just can't. It's been a rough week for me.

However, much - if not all - has been answered. :)

http://www.frum.org/talmud/index.asp

That's a good place to start and it will lead you to other sites.

Thank you. Rest assured, I fully intend to do some more thorough research.

Keruvalia explained it rather well. You could do the same, with Christian or Islamic scripture, but Christian and Muslim scholars have a substantial amount of information and knowledge, which the typical person cannot gain from Googling or simply reading the scripture. That's why, for example, Judaism emphasizes study in Judaism, not simply reading the scripture.

Anyway, one more thing I have to say to Jews and non-Jews: Assume the best of others here. That's one teaching in Judaism, but I believe it's relevant to all people.

You don't know that Unified Japan is a racist. Nor did Unified Japan know that Judaism was an "evil," religion. Assuming the best of others can sometimes be naive, but it's the way to be certain you aren't falsely charging others of things they haven't done.

We're often ignorant, but don't recognize the extent of our ignorance. Even if you're offended by certain statements, don't charge anyone with anti-semitism, Jewish supremacy, or any religion of being "evil," even if you know plenty of facts. Because there's always information you don't know and there's nothing to be gained from making potentially-hurtful assumptions.

This is good advice. :(

.
You don't know that Unified Japan is a racist. Nor did Unified Japan know that Judaism was an "evil," religion. Assuming the best of others can sometimes be naive, but it's the way to be certain you aren't falsely charging others of things they haven't done.
Either he is racist, or seriously lacking judgement. It is obvious that he picked up this list on an anti-Semitic website of some kind.

As for "Later editions of the Talmud pretty blatantly attack Christians"- I think I know where it comes from. There exist texts of the Talmud that were "corrected" by the Spanish Inquisition censors in order to plant some "incriminating" anti-Christian material. These texts are not in use by the Jews (it was rather easy to restore and verfy the original by comparing the forgery to the texts of Talmud found outside of Spain) and do not, to my knowledge, appear in the original Aramaic. They are, however, still circulated and quoted in some religious anti-Semitic circles.

I have my own paryer too, which goes for any religion:

"Dear God, please protect me from your followers. Amen."

So, you pray to the same God that you deny?? Wow, your a hypocrite.

So, you pray to the same God that you deny?? Wow, your a hypocrite.

I don't agree that the prayer "God, please protect me from your followers" is necessarily hypocrisy. It simply suggests that there may be some disconnection between whatever God there is, and the behaviour of its followers. Given the wide variation in the behaviour of followers of any single religion, much less the range of religions, I think its a reasonable suggestion. To question the followers of God is not necessarily the same thing as "denying" a God.

Either he is racist, or seriously lacking judgement. It is obvious that he picked up this list on an anti-Semitic website of some kind.
Not necessarily.

Holy Womble, even if it's likely, there's still the chance that it isn't. I'll give you an example. I used to work at Wal-Mart and my co-worker always took long breaks, longer than he was supposed to. It was 15 minutes since he'd been gone. So, I went in the back room to find him. He wasn't there. On the way out, I asked the lady at layaway, "Have you seen Jean?"

She said, "No, why? Is he late coming back from break?"

My first instinct was to say, "He's always late coming back," but I remembered reading about lashon harah, intrigued by the idea, trying to practice it. So, even though I was fairly certain he was late, I told her, "No. Nevermind."

So, I walked back, and surprisingly, there he was. Right on time. If I had told her he was late, I would've been lying. Yes, that's trivial, but regardless, I would've said something bad about him that wasn't true. In some circumstances, that can turn out to have major consequences.

If people just gave others the benefit of the doubt, then the "Boy Who Cried Wolf," wouldn't have died.

As for "Later editions of the Talmud pretty blatantly attack Christians"- I think I know where it comes from. There exist texts of the Talmud that were "corrected" by the Spanish Inquisition censors in order to plant some "incriminating" anti-Christian material. These texts are not in use by the Jews (it was rather easy to restore and verfy the original by comparing the forgery to the texts of Talmud found outside of Spain) and do not, to my knowledge, appear in the original Aramaic. They are, however, still circulated and quoted in some religious anti-Semitic circles.

And you know this because?

And you know this because?
Because he's a J... JUMBO, ALIEN OVERLORD OF EVIL FROM PLANET X

EDIT: Really. Did you need to ask that question, or was it flamebaitingly rhetorical?

No, he isn't. He's discussing the Talmud. He made no statement about Judaism. He only made a statement about the Talmud. If you took the time to read his original post, you'd know that.

he clearly just copied this from some nazi site. firstly, there is no way he actually skimmed through the talmud looking for this himself. secondly, at least some of it has been altered or quoted out of context in such a way as to make it sound particularly bad. thirdly, nobody just starts talking about "evil jews" without being a nazi.

basically, he's a fucking nazi. he doesn't have to actually come out and say so for it to be painfully obvious.

Look, this thread has been Godwined. Give it up.

I'm a hypernationanlist uber-Anti-Christian Hebrew who beleives that all of Christianity are heathens who are going to burn in hell;

...and even I don't think that UJ is a Nazi.

((By the by, from a Jewish religious standpoint, every Christian is worshipping a false idol))

I have read this thread and I have to admit, I find it interesting. Although I must admit I'm dissapointed in the lack of respect and tolerance I've seen from a few people.
I am a Member of the Chuch of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints (aka Mormon) by birth and nowadays by choice. Recently though I've begun to study other religions to gain a fuller understanding of it all. I started out with other Christians only to be met with resistance and even hostility, so I moved on to Judaism and Islam hoping for better results. It would seem that my college library only contains personal interpretations of the Koran (and I do apologize to any whom disagree with my spelling or speaking frankly of this holy book, which is of course a relative term. So if you disagree with it being a holy book I hope you don't take offense to that either, I'm simply trying to learn without pissing anybody off.) and Torah, but that isn't the kind of thing I want. As I think most of us has seen in this thread, another person's personal interpretation(s) can cause digression from one's original purpose.
I am trying to get ahold of a copy of the Torah and Koran so that I can study them myself right along with my Bible (Old and New Testament inclusive + some translations, and additions that were removed from or overlooked in the Bible's original English translation-->aka Joseph Smith Translation-JST), and Book of Mormon. I hope some day to learn the languages that the originals were written in so that I can read them all for myself, and compare.
While I am relatively young, 15 to be sure, I have been exposed to many wise people and interesting ideas, I've been taught well by those who I would consider mentors or teachers and friends. I like very much the idea of assuming the best in people (and their religions too!) that I've already seen mentioned here. I hope to meet more people who share a similiar desire as me, and thank those who are willing to take the time to explain their faith. I've learned quite a bit in this thread and doubt I'll ever be able to fully convey my thanks in text alone.
I'm sure I'll catch the attention of a few flamers, but I'm no stranger to persecution. I'll ask though that if anybody be willing to contact me that it is for purposes regaurding further understanding of eachother, and our respective religions. I guess anybody else will be, well...ignored. I wish no hostility to stem from any of this.

- The LRPT
zackomaniac@hotmail.com

he clearly just copied this from some nazi site. firstly, there is no way he actually skimmed through the talmud looking for this himself. secondly, at least some of it has been altered or quoted out of context in such a way as to make it sound particularly bad. thirdly, nobody just starts talking about "evil jews" without being a nazi.

basically, he's a fucking nazi. he doesn't have to actually come out and say so for it to be painfully obvious.
I FOUND THE SOURCE FOR THIS LIST.

I googled and found it:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

It's a book by white supremacist author, Michael Hoffman II. His last name may be Hoffman, but I'm skeptical as to whether he's actually a Jew. His website says he does "conspiracy research," haha. Whatever the fuck that is.

He's also written a book called, "They Were White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America."

So, yes. The nation on NS, the Scribes, took that list and the information verbatim from this white supremacist's book. I wouldn't blame Unified Japan, however, because he seemed somewhat embarassed when he found out that the information was wrong. And the post started off with him quoting someone else who posted that nonsense on here.

EDIT: Hahaha. I read through some more.

He also claims that Reagan, Bush and Clinton "laid the groundwork," for Rabbinical courts in the United States. Hahaha. The guy is an ignorant nutcase.

Ahahaha. He's also called FUCKING PAT BUCHANAN the "High Priest of the Kabbalistic Temple."

Hahaha. What.. a....fucking... insane... oh my god...

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/wire2.html

The answer to your question is H to the izzay. The ancient Hebrew teachings are not evil because the concept of good and evil do not even exist. Humans created them to define themselves based on what others are not. Fat and thin don't exist either...but you're still fat.

Ahahaha. He's also called FUCKING PAT BUCHANAN the "High Priest of the Kabbalistic Temple."

Hahaha. What.. a....fucking... insane... oh my god...

if there is one thing that nazis are good for, it's random batshit insane ideas about pretty much everything.

Because he's a J... JUMBO, ALIEN OVERLORD OF EVIL FROM PLANET X

EDIT: Really. Did you need to ask that question, or was it flamebaitingly rhetorical?
He appears to have developed a grudge against me from another thread, and is now being silly :rolleyes:

By the way, you have found out yourself that my guess as for where he took this list was pretty safe to make.

I especially loved the references they make to "professor Israel Shahak of Hebrew University". The guy is a professor not of history, not of religion, but of chemistry and has just about zero authority in the matter. Not to mention that he is a rabidly anti-Semitic (and anti-Zionist, which makes him one of Noam Chomsky's favorite pets) Christian convert.

He appears to have developed a grudge against me from another thread, and is now being silly :rolleyes:

Actually, I would have accepted an apology for your statements back then in said thread, but none were forthcoming.

Nevertheless, the question was asked in relation to the editting of the texts by said parties and its current use by the groups you mentioned. Can you point it out or would you prefer to continue to make fun of me?

Actually, I would have accepted an apology for your statements back then in said thread, but none were forthcoming.

Nevertheless, the question was asked in relation to the editting of the texts by said parties and its current use by the groups you mentioned. Can you point it out or would you prefer to continue to make fun of me?
Make fun of you, of course. Because its fun :p

Make fun of you, of course. Because its fun :p

So it would seem. I shall have to make a note of that for future reference.

It's all very amusing in a sort of sordid way, as the Talmud is noted as being one of the most progressive ideas in religion: a constantly changing quasi-democratic document that is considered an addendum to the Torah, i.e. an equal (if not superior) source of information created by man in contrast to the constant archaic "words of God"... if not for the influence of the Talmud, there'd be a "valid" religious argument for all the tripe proposed in the Bible.

That said, I was surprised by some of the stuff that was "found", and while it's still highly dubious, I'm sure there are parts of the Talmud that have very xenophobic and ethnocentric commentaries... because, after all, it's written by Jewish priests (not always the most emotionally stable of people) during various periods of a [tumultuous] history... FUBU for Jew.

because, after all, it's written by Jewish priests (not always the most emotionally stable of people) during various periods of a [tumultuous] history... FUBU for Jew.
Hahaha.

FUJBUJ.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way. I checked out that other thread.

And Non Aligned, I agree that Snow White and the Madness of Truth is a beautiful piece of artwork because it tells the other side to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. In some circumstances, "Snow White," doesn't exist. In other circumstances, she does. What offends people most of all is honesty that disagrees with their beliefs. It was also created by an Israeli Jew who is the President of a joint Israeli-Palestinian Peace group.

However, imagine for a moment, that you grew up as an Israeli Jew. And you enter an exhibit which is a pool of blood, with a boat carrying the face of a suicide-bomber, with lights shining on it, and poems glorifying her. It's not difficult to imagine how shocked you'd be. They should've never had the diplomat go there and wherever the artwork is displayed in the future, a sign displaying a warning should be outside the exhibit.

It's possible Zvi did it for political reasons, it's possible he was sincere. But it isn't anyone's place to judge either the artist or the diplomat.

Furthermore, your repeated asking if Womble is an Israeli is an attempted ad-hominem. Later, you clarified the ad-hominem, by saying you "suspected as much." That reflects a bit of bigotry and so does saying, "I am keeping my eye on you." While I disagree with Womble's unwavering support of Israel, I believe it's you that owes him an apology for being so belligerent.

I think the major problem is just lack of communication. In the thread, one side would say, "Sweden is this..." and then the other side would say, "Israel is that..." and so on. So, it's just foolishness disputed by foolishness.

NOBODY believes that the entire Swedish government or all of its people are anti-semitic. So, making comments about the Swedish being anti-semitic is obviously going to offend non-racist Swedes. And nobody believes that every Israeli is an anti-Arab Zionist. So making generalizations like that about Jews or Israelis serves no purpose other than to anger people.

Just clarify what you mean: "Sweden," isn't an anti-semitic country, nor is "Israel," a bad government. There are aspects of each that we find disagreeable, even large aspects, but that doesn't form any kind of absolute label that applies universally. There are also positive aspects to each. Only the insanely irrational cannot see the good and bad sides to everything.

It was also created by an Israeli Jew who is the President of a joint Israeli-Palestinian Peace group.
...and who has renounced his Israeli citizenship :rolleyes:

Attempting to make some kind of point out of Feiler being born in Israel is pretty silly. But this whole discussion belongs in another thread of course.

...and who has renounced his Israeli citizenship :rolleyes:
His Israeli citizenship, but not his faith as a Jew.

I found the source. It's a book by white supremacist author, Michael Hoffman II. His last name may be Hoffman, but I'm skeptical as to whether he's actually a Jew. His website says he does "conspiracy research," haha. Whatever the fuck that is.

Ah, Hoffman. I stumbled upon it on an Angelfire site, actually, but it's probable they got it from him.

Yeah, he's a man with an agenda. There's valuable material in "They Were White And They Were Slaves" but a lot of his other stuff calls to mind the kind've conspiracy theory that has some people thinking the Nazis still have an Antarcitc Base that aliens use as a foo fighter landing strip.