NationStates Jolt Archive

Britishers will know that The Government managed to get through a Bill called the 'Incitement to Racial Hatred' Bill through the Lower House (The House of The Commons), and know it has to be ratified by the Lords (Yes, I know, the English live in the medieval times :P ), but what is interesting about this bill is that it effectively will ban criticism of Islam. Islam is a political ideology though, as much as it is faith based, it has clear set political goals as set down by Mohammed, these being, namely, the Establishment of Dar-Al-Islam as a unified Caliphate governed under shariah and the continued struggle against Dar-Al-Harb (The land of the infidels), to eventually form a Global Caliphate.

Should we ban criticism of Nazism? Islam is a religiopolitical institution that needs to be subjected to criticism.

Depends on who's practicing it. Most muslims aren't going around blowing shit up. Some are. Unfortunately, sometimes the peacefull muslims are in such denial that they call any attempt to find and prosecute the vermin in their midst racism. Case in point, the outcry by the British Muslim community when the Finsbury Park mosque was raided and the terrorist imam Abu Hamza was arrested.

Depends on who's practicing it. Most muslims aren't going around blowing shit up. Some are. Unfortunately, sometimes the peacefull muslims are in such denial that they call any attempt to find and prosecute the vermin in their midst racism. Case in point, the outcry by the British Muslim community when the Finsbury Park mosque was raided and the terrorist imam Abu Hamza was arrested.

The Only Good Muslim is a Bad Muslim imo.

Britishers will know that The Government managed to get through a Bill called the 'Incitement to Racial Hatred' Bill through the Lower House (The House of The Commons), and know it has to be ratified by the Lords (Yes, I know, the English live in the medieval times :P ), but what is interesting about this bill is that it effectively will ban criticism of Islam. Islam is a political ideology though, as much as it is faith based, it has clear set political goals as set down by Mohammed, these being, namely, the Establishment of Dar-Al-Islam as a unified Caliphate governed under shariah and the continued struggle against Dar-Al-Harb (The land of the infidels), to eventually form a Global Caliphate.

Should we ban criticism of Nazism? Islam is a religiopolitical institution that needs to be subjected to criticism.

I agree in principle. This bill is a strangling of our free speech. However, I must say that The House of Lords, which you don't seem to be especially impressed by, may be our greatest defence against this bill. They don't actually like and may wel reject it.This will force the government to try and force it through. They may have to pull out the parliament act. Also, Nazism isn't considered so much a religion as a political idealogy so would be exempt from this law.

The Only Good Muslim is a Bad Muslim imo.
Well at least you didn't say dead muslim.

Well at least you didn't say dead muslim.

It's to be inferred. The bad ones die due to the bombs strapped to their chests.

but what is interesting about this bill is that it effectively will ban criticism of Islam.

Interesting, as this isn't what the Home Office website says:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/faith/crime/faq.html

It appears that the bill will not stop you from "criticising the beliefs, teachings or practices of a religion or its followers; for example by claiming that they are false or harmful."

Interesting, as this isn't what the Home Office website says:
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/faith/crime/faq.html

It appears that the bill will not stop you from "criticising the beliefs, teachings or practices of a religion or its followers; for example by claiming that they are false or harmful."

The Homo Office aren't going to claim otherwise are they? :)

If it passes can I criticise Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism, or indeed Dreamtime myths on the U.K. Nationstates forums?

Real Islam is a religion of peace. The terrorists, suicide bombers, et. al. are not Muslims. They commit atrocities under the guise of religion only to attempt to convert real Muslims to their cause.

The Homo Office aren't going to claim otherwise are they? :)

Well, they can't exactly lie about this. It's not like the 40 minute claim, which could be put down to bad intelligence.

Real Islam is a religion of peace. The terrorists, suicide bombers, et. al. are not Muslims. They commit atrocities under the guise of religion only to attempt to convert real Muslims to their cause.

MURDER:

Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”
Tabari VIII:141 “The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: ‘Kill! Kill! Kill!’”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.”
Ishaq:489 “Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing.”
Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”
Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”
Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”
Ishaq:368 “Ka’b’s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.”
Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”
Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”
Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.”
Bukhari:V1B1N6 “Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.”
Ishaq: 676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”
Bukhari:V1B11N626 “The Prophet said, ‘No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr. If they knew the reward they would come to (the mosque) even if they had to crawl. I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.’”
Tabari VIII:178/Ishaq:550 “Muhammad ordered that certain men should be assassinated even if they were found behind the curtains of the Ka’aba. Among them was Abdallah bin Sa’d [the Qur’an’s one and only scribe]. The reason that Allah’s Messenger ordered that he should be slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur’an Revelation. Then he apostatized [rejected Islam].”
Tabari VIII:179 “Abdallah bin Sa’d fled to Uthman, his brother, who after hiding him, finally surrendered him to the Prophet. Uthman asked for clemency. Muhammad did not respond, remaining silent for a long time. Muhammad explained, ‘By Allah, I kept silent so that one of you might go up to him and cut off his head!’ One of the Ansar said, ‘Why didn’t you give me a sign?’ Allah’s Apostle replied, ‘A prophet does not kill by pointing.’”
Tabari VIII:179/Ishaq:550 “Among those who Muhammad ordered killed was Abdallah bin Khatal. The Messenger ordered him to be slain because while he was a Muslim, Muhammad had sent him to collect the zakat tax with an Ansar and a slave of his.... His girls used to sing a satire about Muhammad so the Prophet ordered that they should be killed along with Abdullah. He was killed by Sa’id and Abu Barzah. The two shared in his blood. One of the singing girls was killed quickly but the other fled. So Umar caused his horse to trample the one who fled, killing her.”
Ishaq:551 “Another victim was Huwayrith. He used to insult Muhammad in Mecca. Huwayrith was put to death by Ali. The Messenger ordered Miqyas’ assassination only because he had killed an Ansar who had killed his brother by mistake and then became a renegade by rejecting Islam.”
Tabari VIII:180 “Also among those eliminated were Ikrimah bin Abu Jahl and Sarah, a slave of one of Abd Muttalib’s sons. She taunted Muhammad while he was in Mecca.”
Tabari VIII:181 “The Messenger ordered six men and four women to be assassinated. One of these women was Hind, who swore allegiance and became a Muslim.”
Bukhari:V4B52N281 “They took Khubaib to Mecca after the battle of Badr. He had killed Harith, a Meccan nobleman. The Quraysh gathered to kill him in retribution.… Khubaib wanted to offer two Rakat (prayers). They allowed this and he said, ‘O Allah, kill them all with no exception.’ He then recited the poetic verse: ‘I’m being martyred as a Muslim. I do not mind how I am killed in Allah’s Cause. For my killing is for Allah’s Sake. If Allah wishes, He will bless the amputated parts of my torn body.’ Then the son of Harith [the man Khubaib had murdered] killed him.”

Terrorists are TRUE Muslims, the Good Humans are the BAD Muslims. :)

Britishers will know that The Government managed to get through a Bill called the 'Incitement to Racial Hatred' Bill through the Lower House (The House of The Commons), and know it has to be ratified by the Lords (Yes, I know, the English live in the medieval times :P ), but what is interesting about this bill is that it effectively will ban criticism of Islam. Islam is a political ideology though, as much as it is faith based, it has clear set political goals as set down by Mohammed, these being, namely, the Establishment of Dar-Al-Islam as a unified Caliphate governed under shariah and the continued struggle against Dar-Al-Harb (The land of the infidels), to eventually form a Global Caliphate.

Should we ban criticism of Nazism? Islam is a religiopolitical institution that needs to be subjected to criticism.

Everything should be criticized. If something is not, then..... bad things happen.

Terrorists are TRUE Muslims, the Good Humans are the BAD Muslims. :)

Im sorry but I draw the line there. You are just wrong. Go home and get on with being a bigot.

This is a complicated issue. Muslims believe that every one goes to Hell. Depending on how good a life you led depends on how long you are there. However, a martyr gets to skip Hell and go strait to heaven. If you believed that to be true, and a religious cleric told you that you would be a martyr if you became a suicide bomber, wouldn’t you take that opportunity to skip Hell? Personally, I have always been of the belief that Islam was begun as a means to build an empire.

Im sorry but I draw the line there. You are just wrong. Go home and get on with being a bigot.

Can you please refute the verses I have posted? :)

Can you please refute the verses I have posted? :)

Just out of curiosity, do you know the context of the verses you posted?

I can refute them: Christians have just as many verses about death and killing, and in our history we have massacred many more than the religion of Islam. The violent midset is inherent in humans, the american dream and vision of success involves a cutthroat social darwinism where one does whatever he can trump his superiors. I wish I could move to my nationstate...

Can you please refute the verses I have posted? :)

Would you care to look in our Bible? You may find verses that are just as "dodgy." Muslims do not, in general, go around killing people. If they did, there WOULD be a problem. As these texts were written hundreds of years ago, they are mostly culturally relevant. Look in the Old Testament and you will see many instances when God has not acted in an especially kind or benevolent way. This has no impact on the majority of Christians. Religions should look at the similarities between them to build friendships, rather than make accusations as you have. Yours is not a very Christian attitude at all.

I can refute them: Christians have just as many verses about death and killing, and in our history we have massacred many more than the religion of Islam. The violent midset is inherent in humans, the american dream and vision of success involves a cutthroat social darwinism where one does whatever he can trump his superiors. I wish I could move to my nationstate...

I am a Socialist as I said so ergo I am not Capitalist or Social Darwinist, such ideas are contrary to Christ. Also, this is not a comparitive Study between Islam and Christianity, this is the discussion on whether your Atheistic Allies (The Real Muslims), are really peaceful? I post verses from the Quran, you have failed to refute them, your Muslim and Homosexual Masters of the Atheist/Islamic/Homosexual Empire will not be pleased :D

Just out of curiosity, do you know the context of the verses you posted?

I have read the Quran, and thus yes, but not all from memory. But if the endless generic retort of 'taking out of context' is to be fulfilled, then I would expect an Atheist such as yourself, who applies rationale to all his tasks, to enlighten me on the subject of context and how this justifies the violent, almost evil nature of the verses I have posted.

I am a Socialist as I said so ergo I am not Capitalist or Social Darwinist, such ideas are contrary to Christ. Also, this is not a comparitive Study between Islam and Christianity, this is the discussion on whether your Atheistic Allies (The Real Muslims), are really peaceful? I post verses from the Quran, you have failed to refute them, your Muslim and Homosexual Masters of the Atheist/Islamic/Homosexual Empire will not be pleased :D

...

Riiight...why don't you just go back under your bridge.

I am a Socialist as I said so ergo I am not Capitalist or Social Darwinist, such ideas are contrary to Christ. Also, this is not a comparitive Study between Islam and Christianity, this is the discussion on whether your Atheistic Allies (The Real Muslims), are really peaceful? I post verses from the Quran, you have failed to refute them, your Muslim and Homosexual Masters of the Atheist/Islamic/Homosexual Empire will not be pleased :D

Basically you're saying if you don't hate them, then your in alliance with them. Sounds very much like Bush's little "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." speech.

Basically you're saying if you don't hate them, then your in alliance with them. Sounds very much like Bush's little "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." speech.

No. I think everyone with sanity should hate the ideology of Islam, like it or not, Islam was spread indirectly by the sword by effectively forcing Dhimmi's, through coercive means such as raising Jizyah, and the institution of Dhimmitude itself, to make Kaffir convert to Islam so they were treated with more respect and had a better life in Occupied Khalifat.

No. I think everyone with sanity should hate the ideology of Islam, like it or not, Islam was spread indirectly by the sword by effectively forcing Dhimmi's, through coercive means such as raising Jizyah, and the institution of Dhimmitude itself, to make Kaffir convert to Islam so they were treated with more respect and had a better life in Occupied Khalifat.

...

I think it's 'bout time you brushed up on the history of Christianity. It was spread by the business end of Europeon muskets.

Seriously, radical Islamists these days are acting just like Europeon Christians were up to as late as 300 years ago and this has everyone batshit scared because they know just how successful the Europeons were.

...

I think it's 'bout time you brushed up on the history of Christianity. It was spread by the business end of Europeon muskets.

Seriously, radical Islamists these days are acting just like Europeon Christians were up to as late as 300 years ago and this has everyone batshit scared because they know just how successful the Europeons were.

As I said, this is not a comparitive study. I know Atheists are in league with Islam but that is not for this discussion.

As I said, this is not a comparitive study. I know Atheists are in league with Islam but that is not for this discussion.

Want to know what's ironic?

I'm not an atheist OR a muslim and I still think you're a raving fool.

Want to know what's ironic?

I'm not an atheist OR a muslim and I still think you're a raving fool.

But why? Raving Fools can easily be rebutted, can't they? Like Faurrison, as Chomsky said, "There's no difficulty in refuting Faurisson if anyone wants to". So why not just stop the ad-hominen and prove to me that Islam is a religion of peace by rebutting the verses I have posted.

But why? Raving Fools can easily be rebutted, can't they? Like Faurrison, as Chomsky said, "There's no difficulty in refuting Faurisson if anyone wants to". So why not just stop the ad-hominen and prove to me that Islam is a religion of peace by rebutting the verses I have posted.

Why rebute you when the ad hominen attacks are so much more fun when dealing with a troll?

As I said, this is not a comparitive study. I know Atheists are in league with Islam but that is not for this discussion.

I can sense a theme here. Everyone seems to be working together (muslims, homosexuals, atheists etc) against you and what you believe. Why would all these people otherwise be targets for someone as level-headed and tolerant as you? Im a Christian and you are making a fool of us all. Go back to your rock and crawl under it. I don't know what planet you are living on but I hope I never visit it.

History proves that there can only be peace between Muslims and Infidels under our benevolent rule.

Why rebute you when the ad hominen attacks are so much more fun when dealing with a troll?

Exactly, I'm a troll in your opinion because I criticize Islam. So please, explain to me, in your infinite wisdom and knowledge, how the verses I quoted are wrong, and how Islam is a religion of peace?

I have read the Quran, and thus yes, but not all from memory. But if the endless generic retort of 'taking out of context' is to be fulfilled, then I would expect an Atheist such as yourself, who applies rationale to all his tasks, to enlighten me on the subject of context and how this justifies the violent, almost evil nature of the verses I have posted.

I have not read the Koran myself, so I could not say how the context affects the verses in question. That was the purpose of my question, to see if you had done some research into the verses rather than copying and pasting them straight from some anti-Muslim website.

By the way, I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist. As I haven't seen any appreciable proof for or against the existence of God, I remain undecided on the matter.

Seriously, radical Islamists these days are acting just like Europeon Christians were up to as late as 300 years ago and this has everyone batshit scared because they know just how successful the Europeons were.

So very wrong. The methods are completely different. Just because movements have the same basic driving force, it does not make them identical.

Just out of curiosity HHE, have you read the book you took your quotes from (I mean those in page one)? If you have, and you didn't just get those from the web, what did you think of Winn's book? I mean, I can see you like the way he portraits Islam, but are you agreeing with his views of Mohammed too?

I have not read the Koran myself, so I could not say how the context affects the verses in question. That was the purpose of my question, to see if you had done some research into the verses rather than copying and pasting them straight from some anti-Muslim website.

By the way, I'm an agnostic rather than an atheist. As I haven't seen any appreciable proof for or against the existence of God, I remain undecided on the matter.

I respect your decision on that, what I do not respect however, is what The Quran teaches. And, as I said before, if it is so easy to disprove, instead of resorting to broad, generic retorts such as the 'context', dispprove what I have posted. I am here to smash the myths about Islam as an ideology.

Just out of curiosity HHE, have you read the book you took your quotes from (I mean those in page one)? If you have, and you didn't just get those from the web, what did you think of Winn's book? I mean, I can see you like the way he portraits Islam, but are you agreeing with his views of Mohammed too?

I personally have my own opinions of Mohammed, I believe the vast amounts of evidence (used to hide in caves for sustained periods of time, used to hallucinate about seeing things, used to hallucinate about seeing Jinns, the symptoms of his hallucinations bear much resemblence to epileptic fits ((drooling, wide eyes expression et al)) point towards him being mentally deranged, most probably a narcissist. And, as usual, Winn has recieved death threats, because Muslims know they can't prove him wrong so they have to try and kill him. Like the Assasins of Theo Van Gogh.

To HHE,

Are Judaism and Christianity *really* religions of peace?

From http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

Makes me wonder, we believe that one is, yet there are lots of nasty examples stating otherwise.... just like the Qur'an.
I especially like the one titled Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God. Nice and tolerant.


1) Capital Punishment Crimes:



Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)




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2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:



Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)



God Kills the Curious

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)



Killed by a Lion

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)



Killing the Good Samaritan

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)




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3) Murdering Children



Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)



God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)



Kill Men, Women, and Children

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)



God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)



Kill Old Men and Young Women

"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)



God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)



More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)




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4) Miscellaneous Murders



More of Samson's Murders

(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)



Peter Kills Two People

There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)



Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)



You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)



The Danites Kill the Next Town

But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)



God Kills Some More

Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)



God Promises More Killing

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)



The Angel of Death

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)



Destruction of Ai

Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)



Killing at Jericho

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)



God Kills an Extended Family

"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)



Mass Murder

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)



The Angel of Death

That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)



Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)



Kill the Family of Sinners

And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)



Kill Followers of Other Religions

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)



Murder

At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)



Kill All of Babylon

"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)



Micah Kills a Whole Town

Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

History proves that there can only be peace between Muslims and Infidels under our benevolent rule.
Well, then I guess it's war until you wise up or go extinct. What else do you expect with that attitude?

Exactly, I'm a troll in your opinion because I criticize Islam. So please, explain to me, in your infinite wisdom and knowledge, how the verses I quoted are wrong, and how Islam is a religion of peace?

No, I think you're a troll for stuff like this:

you have failed to refute them, your Muslim and Homosexual Masters of the Atheist/Islamic/Homosexual Empire will not be pleased

Your comments in several other threads and several other threads you have made just confirm my suspicsions.

As stated, if you want a comparitive study, please start a new thread. Even so, I find your justification a little strange, you claim that Islamic Dogma is justified because it is featured in the Old Testament (which I happen to regard with more than a little scepticism as a Christian), have references of the same kind of thing (though not nearly AS violent). So, please, rather than comparitive studies, as I have stated many times before are not relevant to this thread (check the title), could you, a proud Atheist, please prove me wrong on the subject of Islam?

I personally have my own opinions of Mohammed, I believe the vast amounts of evidence (used to hide in caves for sustained periods of time, used to hallucinate about seeing things, used to hallucinate about seeing Jinns, the symptoms of his hallucinations bear much resemblence to epileptic fits ((drooling, wide eyes expression et al)) point towards him being mentally deranged, most probably a narcissist. And, as usual, Winn has recieved death threats, because Muslims know they can't prove him wrong so they have to try and kill him. Like the Assasins of Theo Van Gogh.
So, in short, you do agree. That was all I wanted to know. Thanks.

Well, then I guess it's war until you wise up or go extinct. What else do you expect with that attitude?

No need for War, we need to spread the values of Individual Freedoms peaceably, and we are already doing that to some extent, though I disagree with forced impositions that the IMF makes in regards to economic terms of structural readjustment (privatization of assets to Foreign MNC's), I definately agree Western Values of Representative Democracy and Individual Freedom should be spread throughout the World, though not through using War as a vehcile, rather by using peace.

No need for War, we need to spread the values of Individual Freedoms peaceably, and we are already doing that to some extent, though I disagree with forced impositions that the IMF makes in regards to economic terms of structural readjustment (privatization of assets to Foreign MNC's), I definately agree Western Values of Representative Democracy and Individual Freedom should be spread throughout the World, though not through using War as a vehcile, rather by using peace.

*rubs eyes in disbelief* so you are a hypocrite then?

*rubs eyes in disbelief* so you are a hypocrite then?
In what way?

@Kaledan, everything you said was Old Testament, except an example of God taking judgment on two people who lied about their offering in Acts and a reference to God (not man) giving the death penalty (Hell) to those who openly defy him.

In the end, we have a large number of muslims living in London, and especially close to Aldgate and Edgware when the attack on London happened. These people aren't 'bad' muslims as you put it, in fact they still practise their faith. The whole idea of this Jihad business is condemned by 99% of the muslim community. It's more a select group of people are the violent ones, just as certain sects of christianity in African forests commit unspeakable acts to other humans far more traumatising than you could imagine.

Religion, coming from an agnostic, is what you make of it. Certain people manipulate it so that it justifies these acts - in other words - the actual meaning of the text is corrupted. Religion in itself teaches good will and stoicism, many fundamentalists can pervert this.

In what way?
In the way that here and on other threads, you show utter distaste for homosexuals and atheists, with clearly no respect for these people's own opinions or ideals and then talk of personal freedoms. You even used the word "fag" on another thread. Who, exactly, do you think you are?

First, Islam is a "real" religion. All organized religions have a sociopolitical component or agenda of some kind: the different sects of Christianity, Judaism, even Buddhism, you name it. Since religion has been an integral part of social and political structures for most of human history (and still is, in many ways), it's difficult to draw the line between religion and everything else. In fact, the attempt to disentangle religion from politics and social structure is a recent conceit. Nobody would have envisioned such a thing two hundred years ago.

Second, as for this whole bill, banning hate speech is tricky, because most of the time deciding whether something is or isn't hate speech is just a judgment call. One person's joke or commentary is another person's hate speech. Banning criticism or hate speech doesn't really solve the problem of mutual incomprehension and bigotry - it just puts a lid on the issue and guarantees that it will be a bigger problem later.

Even in the U.S., where we (ostensibly) have the constitutional right to free speech, people have tried to legislate hate speech or what have you, and it's always very ugly and complicated. Look at it this way: if the other guy is free to speak against you, you are just as free to refute his arguments. I think hate speech is one of the necessary evils of a free society.

In the way that here and on other threads, you show utter distaste for homosexuals and atheists, with clearly no respect for these people's own opinions or ideals and then talk of personal freedoms. You even used the word "fag" on another thread. Who, exactly, do you think you are?
If a fag wants to be a fag thats fine, but I don't believe he or she has to be so extrovert about it, one of my main problems with Homosexual Marriage is that I read in NS a while back that the average length of a Homosexual Relationship between the ages of 18-31 is 3 weeks.

First, Islam is a "real" religion. All organized religions have a sociopolitical component or agenda of some kind: the different sects of Christianity, Judaism, even Buddhism, you name it. Since religion has been an integral part of social and political structures for most of human history (and still is, in many ways), it's difficult to draw the line between religion and everything else. In fact, the attempt to disentangle religion from politics and social structure is a recent conceit. Nobody would have envisioned such a thing two hundred years ago.

Second, as for this whole bill, banning hate speech is tricky, because most of the time deciding whether something is or isn't hate speech is just a judgment call. One person's joke or commentary is another person's hate speech. Banning criticism or hate speech doesn't really solve the problem of mutual incomprehension and bigotry - it just puts a lid on the issue and guarantees that it will be a bigger problem later.

Even in the U.S., where we (ostensibly) have the constitutional right to free speech, people have tried to legislate hate speech or what have you, and it's always very ugly and complicated. Look at it this way: if the other guy is free to speak against you, you are just as free to refute his arguments. I think hate speech is one of the necessary evils of a free society.

No, if you ban 'hate' speech as you call it (i.e. rational criticisms of a religiopolitical institution), then it will simply drive it underground.

Do you believe everything you read on NS? That might explain why you have such a screwed up, petty, prudish view of the world. By the way what exactly is a "britisher", you provincial little nazi?

If a fag wants to be a fag thats fine, but I don't believe he or she has to be so extrovert about it, one of my main problems with Homosexual Marriage is that I read in NS a while back that the average length of a Homosexual Relationship between the ages of 18-31 is 3 weeks.
And when have to quote NS, you have severely distanced yourself from reality. ;)

If a fag wants to be a fag thats fine, but I don't believe he or she has to be so extrovert about it, one of my main problems with Homosexual Marriage is that I read in NS a while back that the average length of a Homosexual Relationship between the ages of 18-31 is 3 weeks.
I hope you aren't a US citizen. Here's why I say this. In the USA the constitution guarantees us the right to express ourselves. If a gay guy chooses to act as gay as the day it's OK. Nobody has the right to say he needs to stay in the closet. If you want to call him a fag, that's protected too. People died for his right to proclaim his love for cock. It's sacred.

And when have to quote NS, you have severely distanced yourself from reality.

Sorry? How is NewScientist 'distanced from reality'?

If a fag wants to be a fag thats fine, but I don't believe he or she has to be so extrovert about it, one of my main problems with Homosexual Marriage is that I read in NS a while back that the average length of a Homosexual Relationship between the ages of 18-31 is 3 weeks.
So...by the same measure all people who break up should be arrested. Besides, that fact is probably wrong. Hertosexual relationships are just as likely to go sour, look at the high divorce rate. You seem to be suggesting leaving a relationship is by default a bad act. And, as others have said, who made you the end all and be all of athorities of moral issues?

Should we ban criticism of Nazism? Islam is a religiopolitical institution that needs to be subjected to criticism.

I believe this to be true as much as I believe that there should be no organisation on the planet above criticism. All things should be looked upon with a critical eye.

I disagree, however, with your statement concerning Muhammad's design as he said himself that he did not wish to see Hadith or Shariah written down as he feared people would hold it above Qur'an. In some cases, he was right.

That said, I must now say this .... Hooray! A new puppet with which to play! :D

I hope you aren't a US citizen. Here's why I say this. In the USA the constitution guarantees us the right to express ourselves. If a gay guy chooses to act as gay as the day it's OK. Nobody has the right to say he needs to stay in the closet. If you want to call him a fag, that's protected too. People died for his right to proclaim his love for cock. It's sacred.

Whether the constitution gives the right to express yourself is debatable. It is considered an enumerated right, which means a future Supreme Court could easily say it isn’t. Not that I’m in favor of that, just thought I’d let you know.

No, if you ban 'hate' speech as you call it (i.e. rational criticisms of a religiopolitical institution), then it will simply drive it underground.

That IS pretty much what I said - attempts to keep people from saying "bad things" about a particular religion or what have you can lump hate speech and rational criticism in the same category, it will not fix the problem. You don't think driving it underground will make it worse?

After reading some of your comments on this thread, I'm inclined to think that you're more interested in listening to yourself talk (figuratively) and beating others over the head with your views than you are in actually discussing the issue.

When on the NS boards, maybe you should engage both your brain cells and realise that NS stands for Nation States.

For someone who claimes to be the "holy hellenic Empire" maybe you should remember that the Greeks (Hellenics) are perhaps the most famous "fags" in the world. Are you a "fag"?

Britishers will know that The Government managed to get through a Bill called the 'Incitement to Racial Hatred' Bill through the Lower House (The House of The Commons), and know it has to be ratified by the Lords (Yes, I know, the English live in the medieval times :P ), but what is interesting about this bill is that it effectively will ban criticism of Islam. Islam is a political ideology though, as much as it is faith based, it has clear set political goals as set down by Mohammed, these being, namely, the Establishment of Dar-Al-Islam as a unified Caliphate governed under shariah and the continued struggle against Dar-Al-Harb (The land of the infidels), to eventually form a Global Caliphate.

Should we ban criticism of Nazism? Islam is a religiopolitical institution that needs to be subjected to criticism.

This is simply the next step in the asimiliation of Europe that most have still not awakened to. Now that they have a sufficient foothold established and have political power, it is time to strenthen that power by making their religion protected from scrutiny. Same as any other special intrest group. It is all about power, and Europe is conditioned themselves to be ripe for picking. No, the Muslim religion is not a peaceful one. It never has been, it never will be, that was not it's purpose. Yes there are peaceful muslims. These are the folks that realize their goal can be realized through asimiliation and bloodless overthrow. Either way if you all don't wake up, you are screwed.

If a fag wants to be a fag thats fine, but I don't believe he or she has to be so extrovert about it, one of my main problems with Homosexual Marriage is that I read in NS a while back that the average length of a Homosexual Relationship between the ages of 18-31 is 3 weeks.

First of all, you repeat the "fag" thing! I don't know where you come from, but here that is offensive. You seem to miss my point. I told you that you were a hypocrite, and yet you show me that you are in fact, just an idiot. Why don't you sit down and think up some more prejudices while you're at it? You cannot speak of personal freedom when you wish us all to follow church teachings to the letter. That is not freedom. Religion, or rejection of it, is something personal, and hence you are a hypocrite. Why don't you continue your various homophobic rants elsewhere?

I believe this to be true as much as I believe that there should be no organisation on the planet above criticism. All things should be looked upon with a critical eye.

I disagree, however, with your statement concerning Muhammad's design as he said himself that he did not wish to see Hadith or Shariah written down as he feared people would hold it above Qur'an. In some cases, he was right.

That said, I must now say this .... Hooray! A new puppet with which to play! :D

Mohammed's concept of Shariah as followed by Scholars some with the Sunnah in the Quran is virtually no different to that referenced by the Hadiths, the same stonings, the same ritual crucifixtions, the same imperialism.... And on and on.

Liverbreath']This is simply the next step in the asimiliation of Europe that most have still not awakened to. Now that they have a sufficient foothold established and have political power, it is time to strenthen that power by making their religion protected from scrutiny. Same as any other special intrest group. It is all about power, and Europe is conditioned themselves to be ripe for picking. No, the Muslim religion is not a peaceful one. It never has been, it never will be, that was not it's purpose. Yes there are peaceful muslims. These are the folks that realize their goal can be realized through asimiliation and bloodless overthrow. Either way if you all don't wake up, you are screwed.

I fear for Europe greatly, we have become dhimmis to the Islamists.

Sorry? How is NewScientist 'distanced from reality'?
Oh! Sorry, In almost no way. I thought that 'NS' was Nation States. You see all kinds in here.

Mohammed's concept of Shariah as followed by Scholars some with the Sunnah in the Quran is virtually no different to that referenced by the Hadiths, the same stonings, the same ritual crucifixtions, the same imperialism.... And on and on.
You know, something tells me you're not exactly a professor of muslim studies, are you?

When on the NS boards, maybe you should engage both your brain cells and realise that NS stands for Nation States.

For someone who claimes to be the "holy hellenic Empire" maybe you should remember that the Greeks (Hellenics) are perhaps the most famous "fags" in the world. Are you a "fag"?
What?!? So you mean David Sedaris is actually a.... No, can't be. Just can't fucking be. He always seemed so manly.

Liverbreath']This is simply the next step in the asimiliation of Europe that most have still not awakened to. Now that they have a sufficient foothold established and have political power, it is time to strenthen that power by making their religion protected from scrutiny. Same as any other special intrest group. It is all about power, and Europe is conditioned themselves to be ripe for picking. No, the Muslim religion is not a peaceful one. It never has been, it never will be, that was not it's purpose. Yes there are peaceful muslims. These are the folks that realize their goal can be realized through asimiliation and bloodless overthrow. Either way if you all don't wake up, you are screwed.

Are you for real? You think Muslims are trying to take over Europe?

That's right up there with "a conspiracy of Jewish bankers is trying to take over the world." :rolleyes:

Liverbreath']This is simply the next step in the asimiliation of Europe that most have still not awakened to. Now that they have a sufficient foothold established and have political power, it is time to strenthen that power by making their religion protected from scrutiny. Same as any other special intrest group. It is all about power, and Europe is conditioned themselves to be ripe for picking. No, the Muslim religion is not a peaceful one. It never has been, it never will be, that was not it's purpose. Yes there are peaceful muslims.These are the folks that realize their goal can be realized through asimiliation and bloodless overthrow. Either way if you all don't wake up, you are screwed.

No fair! They’re copying the Democratic Communists/Socialists!

Sorry? How is NewScientist 'distanced from reality'?

Surely trusting science is rather ironic, what with you having quite the vested interest in religion?

Mohammed's concept of Shariah as followed by Scholars some with the Sunnah in the Quran is virtually no different to that referenced by the Hadiths, the same stonings, the same ritual crucifixtions, the same imperialism.... And on and on.

Sunnah is not part of Qur'an any more than the Hadith or Shariah are. Shariah is subject to the whim of the particular leader, Qur'an is concrete and absolute.

Qur'an hands out the death penalty in only one case: unrepented murder. That's it. For no other thing is death proscribed. The stonings and other death penalties are the results of corrupt men.

Same with the imperialism. Qur'an calls for the election of leaders and that governments are to be run by the will of the people and, as such, Caliphs were elected from the very first.

That's right up there with "a conspiracy of Jewish bankers is trying to take over the world." :rolleyes:
Oh, but we are :sarcasm: :rolleyes:

Are you for real? You think Muslims are trying to take over Europe?

That's right up there with "a conspiracy of Jewish bankers is trying to take over the world." :rolleyes:

Oh wait! Don't forget the freemasons! *sarcasm*

Surely trusting science is rather ironic, what with you having quite the vested interest in religion?

You forget, he's a hypocrite.

Are you for real? You think Muslims are trying to take over Europe?

That's right up there with "a conspiracy of Jewish bankers is trying to take over the world." :rolleyes:
The difference is that some radical muslims have said that what they can't take by force they'll take by demographics. Some muslims really do have such aspirations. Those must be carefully watched. Most are just minding their own business.

Are you for real? You think Muslims are trying to take over Europe?

That's right up there with "a conspiracy of Jewish bankers is trying to take over the world." :rolleyes:

You won’t rolling your eyes fifty years from now when all of Europe’s efforts for unity and social “progression” are undermined by a hostile minority now majority who were allowed into their countires by irresponsible immigration policies.

Oh wait! Don't forget the freemasons! *sarcasm*

No, no, no, the freemasons only control the us government and the secret of area 51. Oh, he forgot to add we Jews control the media too :rolleyes:

You forget, he's a hypocrite.

Ohhhhhh.

Oh, but we are :sarcasm: :rolleyes:
Bullshit. You aren't trying to take over the world. You've already done it. Only the Michigan Militia really know the truth. ;)

Oh, he forgot to add we Jews control the media too :rolleyes:

Wait ... you sayin' we don't?

No, no, no, the freemasons only control the us government and the secret of area 51. Oh, he forgot to add we Jews control the media too :rolleyes:

Oh yes. *winks suspiciously* only america.....

*sarcasm* This just in on CNN, we have reports that the michigan malitia is evil. Kill them! KILL THEM ALL!!! Mwahahahahahahaha!
Coming up next, we'll discuss why our isreali overlords are so super nifty.

The difference is that some radical muslims have said that what they can't take by force they'll take by demographics. Some muslims really do have such aspirations. Those must be carefully watched. Most are just minding their own business.

Well, that clarifies the issue somewhat. But as we should all know, saying and doing are two very different things.

From where I sit, Christians - particularly fundamentalist Christians - seem to be indisputably on top right now, and are not at all threatened by Muslims or Jews or anybody.

Of course I'm American and Jewish, so my view is no doubt biased or out of proportion. ;)

Are you for real? You think Muslims are trying to take over Europe?

Do you think they wouldn't want Europe? They only tried to invade for hundreds of years...And figuring so many terrorists are still concerned with events such as the Crusades I wouldn't find it too far-fetched to think that eventually controlling Europe is a goal for Fundamental Islam.

Also, look toward cities such as Rome or Vienna for possible targets over the next few years for terrorist attacks.

No religion should be free from criticism, period. The fact that someone thinks they can make nice with thugs by not criticizing the religion that they've hijacked is stupid. This is a war that will not be won by bills or resolutions from governments, we must be prepared to fight these people with armies and special forces. The military exists to break and destroy things... let's use it properly.

Real Islam is a religion of peace. The terrorists, suicide bombers, et. al. are not Muslims. They commit atrocities under the guise of religion only to attempt to convert real Muslims to their cause.

maybe they've all got penis envy and really do believe they'll get to hang out in a huge tent with 10,000 virgins after they die. lol

Sorry about that mishap earlier, HHE. I was wondering about that "New Scientist says that in the average the relationship of 18-31 old homosexuals lasts for 3 weeks"... Could you please post a link to that article? I find it very fascinating. I want to learn how homosexuals can have almost 700% longer relationships - between those ages - than us straight ones. NS could very well answer that. Thanks in advance.

(I tried to google it meself, but couldn't find it) :(

Do you think they wouldn't want Europe? They only tried to invade for hundreds of years.

Only a sith deals in absolutes ;)
Generalizations are BAD

To be fair, it was more the Christians trying to invade the rest of the world... not vice-versa... that's imperialism for you.

You won’t rolling your eyes fifty years from now when all of Europe’s efforts for unity and social “progression” are undermined by a hostile minority now majority who were allowed into their countires by irresponsible immigration policies.

You sound like one of those nineteenth-century American pundits who were all for closing the borders against immigration because they thought anyone who wasn't of Western European descent was a threat to the country. In fact, you sound like every bigoted alarmist I've ever heard of.

I think some of the French would agree with you, but I certainly don't.

And I will be rolling my eyes at folks like you for a very long time to come.

Depends on who's practicing it. Most muslims aren't going around blowing shit up. Some are. Unfortunately, sometimes the peacefull muslims are in such denial that they call any attempt to find and prosecute the vermin in their midst racism. Case in point, the outcry by the British Muslim community when the Finsbury Park mosque was raided and the terrorist imam Abu Hamza was arrested.

You know he's been put up in the Hilton Hotel because it's felt that he'd be "at risk" in a normal prison? And he's getting taxpayers' money in legal aid to defend himself?

It's unbelievable. The man is a hook-handed comic book maniac who says he hates this country and urges his disciples to destroy it. He should be thrown from the white cliffs and told to make his own way home.

You know he's been put up in the Hilton Hotel because it's felt that he's be "at risk" in a normal prison? And he's getting taxpayers' money in legal aid to defend himself?

It's unbelievable. The man is a hook-handed comic book maniac who says he hates this country and urges his disciples to destroy it. He should be thrown from the white cliffs and told to make his own way home.
He's got a right to a fair trial, and then he should take his chances in general population with the other criminals.

You won’t rolling your eyes fifty years from now when all of Europe’s efforts for unity and social “progression” are undermined by a hostile minority now majority who were allowed into their countires by irresponsible immigration policies.
Right...and in fifty years all gringos will speak spanish and bow in servitude to our mexican overlords...thats just about as likely

Y tu madre es una vaca fea y tu padre es una patata frita sucia! :D
En serio, me encanta los mexicanos y todos las otras personas en los estados unidos..excepto las llamas radioactivas :p

Dont make fun of my mom.

You won’t rolling your eyes fifty years from now

In the year 2055, I will be 83 years old. However, I will probably still be on this damn forum and somewhere around my 43,800th post I will call up the above quote and laugh because the UK will still be a very free and very Christian place.

Then I will finally die in peace.

I dunno you guys, I can feel the muslim stranglehold right now from the millions of muslims occupying Britain right now! *grasps neck* Their stoical practise is SUFFOCATING ME :headbang: .

Right...and in fifty years all gringos will speak spanish and bow in servitude to our mexican overlords...thats just about as likely

Y tu madre es una vaca fea y tu padre es una patata frita sucia! :D
En serio, me encanta los mexicanos y todos las otras personas en los estados unidos..excepto las llamas radioactivas :p

I only understood the bit about radioactive llamas. The rest I wasn't sure about. :D

That's what I get for taking French, I guess.

Y tu madre es una vaca fea y tu padre es una patata frita sucia! :D

Ahahahaha!

En serio, me encanta los mexicanos y todos las otras personas en los estados unidos..excepto las llamas radioactivas :p

Mexicanos hacen el mundo anda alrededor. Dios los bendice todo.

Right...and in fifty years all gringos will speak spanish and bow in servitude to our mexican overlords...thats just about as likely

Y tu madre es una vaca fea y tu padre es una patata frita sucia! :D
En serio, me encanta los mexicanos y todos las otras personas en los estados unidos..excepto las llamas radioactivas :p

Not the same thing. In the US, the Hispanics are assimilating and are not hostile to American culture. In Europe, Arab populations are not assimilating and are hostile to European culture.

In the year 2055, I will be 83 years old. However, I will probably still be on this damn forum and somewhere around my 43,800th post I will call up the above quote and laugh because the UK will still be a very free and very Christian place.

Then I will finally die in peace.

Way to keep up the Native American heritage! "It'll be allright, they'll grow out of it!"

J/k, mind... ;)

I said, probably with misteaks as iv'e only studied it since 1st grade(going into 8th next year):
And your mother is an ugly cow and your father is a dirty french fry :D
Seriously, I love/am enchanted by the mexicans and all the other people in the us..except the radioactive llamas :D

Actually, the education system has had problems with many families who refuse to encourage english. There is some debate as to whether there should be an option to take classes in spanish. Admittably, I don't no much about muslim culture in Europe, but I wouldn't say ALL of them are hostile, or even Many

@Kaledan, everything you said was Old Testament, except an example of God taking judgment on two people who lied about their offering in Acts and a reference to God (not man) giving the death penalty (Hell) to those who openly defy him.

Right, I forgot that no one reads that anymore. Oops.
My point is, however, that just because it is written down does not mean that people go out and do it.

Britishers will know that The Government managed to get through a Bill called the 'Incitement to Racial Hatred' Bill through the Lower House (The House of The Commons), and know it has to be ratified by the Lords (Yes, I know, the English live in the medieval times :P ), but what is interesting about this bill is that it effectively will ban criticism of Islam. Islam is a political ideology though, as much as it is faith based, it has clear set political goals as set down by Mohammed, these being, namely, the Establishment of Dar-Al-Islam as a unified Caliphate governed under shariah and the continued struggle against Dar-Al-Harb (The land of the infidels), to eventually form a Global Caliphate.

Should we ban criticism of Nazism? Islam is a religiopolitical institution that needs to be subjected to criticism.
Islam is no more a religion of peace than is Christianity. That is to say, either of them can be used by those who want to spread their peculiar version by the sword.

Prohibiting cristicism of any philosophy, religion, idea, teaching, etc., is exceedingly dangerous, IMHO. In any society which gives even lip-service to feedom of speech, making any group immune to criticism is granting it a cloak of secrecy ... just what radical Islam needs!

I said, probably with misteaks as iv'e only studied it since 1st grade(going into 8th next year):
And your mother is an ugly cow and your father is a dirty french fry :D
Seriously, I love/am enchanted by the mexicans and all the other people in the us..except the radioactive llamas :D

las llamas radioactivas is "the radioactive flames"

It made your statement that much funnier.

Not the same thing. In the US, the Hispanics are assimilating and are not hostile to American culture. In Europe, Arab populations are not assimilating and are hostile to European culture.

Oh, I see, so if they don't embrace white Christian culture, they're "hostile?"

As I Jew, I have a pathological fear of the word "assimilation." I'd be pretty pissed too if someone expected me to "assimilate" into some other culture.

I don't sympathize with violent radicals, Muslim or otherwise, but you folks aren't exactly making it easy for them to get along with everyone else.

I would Like to remind you all the "incitement of religious hatred" laws will also protect Christians from extremist Muslim criticism such as that of Abu Hanza, the law exists to protect all religions that are not already covered by race laws. This doesn’t mean i agree with them just saying why they actually exists....

To be honest though the laws are already covered by the incitement to commit a crime laws we already have so the need for these laws is largely non-existent but could potentially at a later date infringe our freedom of speech if misused by a corrupt attorney general

Be careful and be glad we have a non-politicised civil libertarian House of Lords

las llamas radioactivas is "the radioactive flames"

It made your statement that much funnier.
no, llamas like the animal. The word is spanish after all...\
It can mean both: http://www.spanishdict.com/AE.cfm?e=llama

Actually, the education system has had problems with many families who refuse to encourage english. There is some debate as to whether there should be an option to take classes in spanish. Admittably, I don't no much about muslim culture in Europe, but I wouldn't say ALL of them are hostile, or even Many

Here in Texas, it is mandatory for people to learn Spanish. It's taught in all Texas elementary schools now.

I meant as in hispanic immmigrants opting to take all classes in spanish, not as in americans learning spanish, though i think it's important we do!

You know he's been put up in the Hilton Hotel because it's felt that he'd be "at risk" in a normal prison? And he's getting taxpayers' money in legal aid to defend himself?

It's unbelievable. The man is a hook-handed comic book maniac who says he hates this country and urges his disciples to destroy it. He should be thrown from the white cliffs and told to make his own way home.


The Hilton Hotel is obcense the rest is not.

He is entitled to legal aid, in this country we follow inocent until proven guilty... I'm not saying he's inoccent but he should be treated as such we cannot start giving up these basic liberties or we will become as bad as the dictator states we oppose.

no, llamas like the animal. The word is spanish after all...\
It can mean both: http://www.spanishdict.com/AE.cfm?e=llama

I know ... but las llamas is both "the flames" and "the llamas". Cute, eh? Made your statement much more fun due to the nature of the thread. ;)

[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]The muslims are the scumb of the earth. They not only blew up 4 london subways are blew the backend of the bus but they are providing a safe haven for future terroists. I am an american. I have seen what those infidels can do on September 11th 2001. I have not forgotten. two of the finest towers in the United States of America were destroyed out right by no not christian, not hindu, not butist, but MUSLIM terroists. American soldiers are now dealing with them now in Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak. We will not falter, the British must not either. U have also been attached now u must show the world y u have been a power over the centuries. That is my advice to Her majesties subjects.

The Islamic faith broadly divides civilization into two camps - Dar al-Islam, the land of the believers (where it is permissible to interact with society and to send children to schools because they are subject to Shari’a or Islamic law), and Dar al-Kufr, the land of infidels (where assimilation is forbidden and devout Muslims are required to “keep their distance from the infidels,” and even wage jihad against their adopted country). Since the Qua'ran comes after the Torah and the Bible (historically and chronologically), it is the final and therefore perfect manifesto of God's will.

It is the latter belief that is prevailing in the slums and tenements of Europe. It is based, in part, on the view that Muslims cannot practice true Islam in a secular environment. This belief translates into decrees (fatwas) from European imams prohibiting the giving of greetings to infidels on their religious holidays, encouraging Muslim parents to remove their children from secular European public schools and prohibiting Muslim service in the armies and police of their newly adopted lands. Safety, security and survival can only be found within the greater Muslim "community" (ummah). This religious imperative has led to widespread Muslim alienation and poverty throughout Europe. It has also led to the growth of Islamic radicalism.

This high degree of Islamic observance (reflecting itself in the cultural alienation of European Muslim society) when combined with the massive influx of millions of Arab Muslims into Christian Europe, represent the first significant challenge to European Christendom in centuries. Immigration has accounted for some 70% of Europe's general population growth over the past five years, and the majority of that immigration has been Muslim.

According to a 2002 report by the World Jewish Congress, the Muslim population in Europe now ranges anywhere from twelve to twenty million persons (depending upon whether surveys include estimates on illegal immigration) or around five percent (5%) of the population - which means there are more Muslims in Europe than there are Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Greeks, Czechs, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Luxembourgers and Hungarians. Once upon a time, the countries that comprise the European Union constituted fourteen percent (14%) of the world’s population. Today, that figure is down to six percent (6%) and projections show that by 2050 (according to a UN forecast) it will be just over four percent (4%) all brought about by a gradual lowering of the non-Muslim birthrate. There has not been such a sustained population reduction in Europe since the Black Death ravaged the continent in the 14th century. (5) If non-Muslims decide to flee the coming Islamic order, which is a distinct possibility, the continent could have a Muslim majority within decades.

In 1974, former Algerian President Houari Boumedienne said in a speech at the U.N:

"One day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere to go to the northern hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.

Now whether or not there is a "conspiracy" (and I somehow doubt that level of organisation), it cannot be denied that Boumedienne's predictions are coming true.

Don't reply to the N00b!

The Hilton Hotel is obcense the rest is not.

He is entitled to legal aid, in this country we follow inocent until proven guilty... I'm not saying he's inoccent but he should be treated as such we cannot start giving up these basic liberties or we will become as bad as the dictator states we oppose.

I'm glad SOMEONE'S caught on to that. Of course, it's the big secret that the current administration doesn't want you to know...