NationStates Jolt Archive

It is forrbiden to make your flag swastika and that sort of things,but how can you make flags taht represents communism?
Do you people know what communism is?It is the worst evil of all goverments

I believe one reason for this is that Communism is an actual type of government, and the swastika is a hated symbol. Besides, Communism itself is not 'evil'; in fact, it's a respectable way of life. As a social and economic system, Communism would be a type of egalitarian society with no state, no privately owned means of production, and no social classes. All property is owned cooperatively and collectively, by the community as a whole, and all people have equal social and economic status and rights. As the best known maxim of a Communist society says, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." As a practical matter, however, all successful major Communist revolutions have resulted in the creation of totalitarian dictatorships. This isn't Communism's fault, it's the people who ran it. You can't say all Germans are bad because Hitler killed millions of people. I find your stereotyping rather rude. In fact, we have adapted several Communistic and Socialistic ideas, like Social Security.

It is forrbiden to make your flag swastika and that sort of things,but how can you make flags taht represents communism?
Do you people know what communism is?It is the worst evil of all govermentsWell yes, but the swastika was the symbol of a particularly nasty brand of racism, while communism on its own (without the help of Josef Stalin or those other wackos) is itself quite harmless and acceptable. In fact, many NS nations follow a socialist ideology, and they would not be too happy with you.

He said what I said... just in way less words and syllables.

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!

Communism and Nazism is not the same. The name doesn't affect what your party believes, it's just a name. If the US Republican Party renamed themselves the "United Gay Anti-God Pro-Communism Front" but kept their policies, the name doesn't effect what they believe. They're just having a moment of insanity. Except with the Nazis, it wasn't just a moment.

It is forrbiden to make your flag swastika and that sort of things,but how can you make flags taht represents communism?
Do you people know what communism is?It is the worst evil of all goverments
Mainly because the ideals of Communism do not contain hate or violence, thoes were given to it by dumb people during their revolutions. The core values of Nazism (and therefore the swastika) are however racist, and it is therefore offensive.

HOWEVER, the main reason is the game. Because Germany has laws against public display of the swastika, as well as other countries, Max did not want to take the risk of his game being banned in thoes countries. If several countries tommorow banned the hammer and sickle (and they actually mattered to the demographics of the game), I'd bet you'd see them disapear pretty quickly.

Edit: and, yes, we do know what communism is: many members of this forum are at least socialist. They (formerly "we") know that it represents the abolition of the state and a public control of the means of productions. It was subsets of communism (Maoism, Stalinism, etc.) that did thoes evil things. Blasting all communists/socialists for the actions of one fraction of their believers is like saying all Christians (Catholics, Protestants and Eastern) are evil because the "Lutheren Baptist Great Lakes Refferendum of 1984 Protestants" went out and killed a couple of people (or, if you want, many people. To gain power in the state govermnent. There). That defies logic.

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!
Ummmm........ no.
There is a big difference between what a political party chooses to call themselves and what they are. The Nazi party was not socialist, and the commies were some of the first to be persecuted under Hitler's fascist regime.

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!


Wrong.

Not the same.

The swastika is the representation of Hitlers Nazi Socialist Party...wich were Fascist.

Communism, is another form of government, although its connantations might be to the Hammer and Sickle.

Very different governments, although the results may have been similar.

As for this site......Swastikas are banned becuase racist assholes like to put them in thier nations flags, and spout hatred on the forums.

Its been argued before, and the results have always been the same...

"Barry says no."

You guy crack me up, if it wasn't so darn serious. The Nazi came out of the Sosialistic party which came out of the Commies!! All of this garbage was and IS still to day the worst mass murder that the mankind have ever experience!!
So learn from the history and you will never make the same misstake AGAIN!!

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!

Those numbers are not even mildly accurate.

To BackwoodsSquatches: I think this game should ban the use of the hammer and sickle and the China flag. Because all of it is even more rasistic then the swastica. No, I don't take the darn Nazi to my chest, I despice them to...

Those numbers are not even mildly accurate.
YES they are. Only in the Gulag over 35 million died!!
The Chinese so called Culture revolution swept the nation over 25 times and each time, between 100.00 to a million of people "vanish". They are still today having mass executions. It estimated the over 100.000 citizens are murder by the Chinese government is murder each YEAR!!! Just the last month over 1000 Christian was put to death all because they where Christian and was praying in their homes!!!!

It is forrbiden to make your flag swastika and that sort of things,but how can you make flags taht represents communism?
Do you people know what communism is?It is the worst evil of all goverments

What a brilliant post. I will print it off and hang it on the 'fridge!
Plus, it is not a government, it is an economic system, often enforced by a totalitarian government.

Communism= Economy
Totalitarian= Government
Capitalist= Economy
Republic in name but really Theocratic Bumblogarchy= Government

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!

Yeah, they are IDENTICAl. Why was it then that Hitler wanted to wipe out that Bolshevik state to the east, um Russia? Why then did he always talk of rooting out Communists and Jews? Oh, I forgot, because they were the same system.

Not even close, but if you cannot be bothered to learn the enormous differences, then I am not going to tell you. ;)

Nazism involves genocide and world domination whereas communism, accurately speaking, refers to a form of marketless anarchy (John Lennon's song Imagine is a pretty good explanation). While Marxism (a path to communism) has spawned some sub-ideologies with horrific results, communism itself doesn't necessary involve or require Stalinic purges, Cultural revolutions, etc.

Nazism, by contrast, is inherently racist, imperialist, and genocidal, not just in practice (as is the case in Marxism's atrocities), but in theory as well (it's deliberately genocidal whereas Marxism was never intended to involve such brutality in the original theory). The "socialism" of national socialism is not at all the same as real socialism, as well (no more than China is a "people's republic).

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!

So... a group's policies are defined by the number of people it kills? I guess that makes the United States of America, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and, well, most of the countries and people that ever existed, Communist. After all, every nation has had wars, internal strife, and so on and so forth.

Wow. The things one learns.

Nazism involves genocide and world domination whereas communism, accurately speaking, refers to a form of marketless anarchy (John Lennon's song Imagine is a pretty good explanation). While Marxism (a path to communism) has spawned some sub-ideologies with horrific results, communism itself doesn't necessary involve or require Stalinic purges, Cultural revolutions, etc.

Nazism, by contrast, is inherently racist, imperialist, and genocidal, not just in practice (as is the case in Marxism's atrocities), but in theory as well (it's deliberately genocidal whereas Marxism was never intended to involve such brutality in the original theory). The "socialism" of national socialism is not at all the same as real socialism, as well (no more than China is a "people's republic).
Even if you are an anarchist... I love that post

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!

You are correct. Both are socialistic in base and are extreme radical ideas. I think the larger issue here goes beyond NS flag designs. From the time we are able to understand who Hitler was, we learn that he and Nazism are the ultamate manifestation of our world. However, communism seems to get off the hook all too often. Why is this as the numbers killed (as you point out) are horrible from both. Hopefully, the day will soon come when we recognise communism for what it is- on an even plain with Nazism and a terrible time in human history.

Government sanctioned mass murder is government sanctioned mass murder no matter what the intention.

Regardless, swastikas are banned because the owner of this website, Max Barry, says so. And so long as he pays the fees for this site out of his own pocket, there is absolutely nothing that anyone here can do about it. He has repeatedly turned down requests to lift the ban, and shows no signs of changing his mind. If you disapprove of this ban, you are welcome to not use this website and not buy his book, though I imagine most of those complaining have no intentions to purchase his book anyway.

You guy crack me up, if it wasn't so darn serious. The Nazi came out of the Sosialistic party which came out of the Commies!! All of this garbage was and IS still to day the worst mass murder that the mankind have ever experience!!
So learn from the history and you will never make the same misstake AGAIN!!
Slow down.
National Socialism has nothing to do with Socialism. Socialism is actually anti-nationalist (in the Marxist sense). That makes it an oymoron.
The Nazis DID NOT come from the socialists, Hitler fought the Reds wherever he could. As a matter of fact, the NSDAP only existed for a long time only to oppose Communists wherever they could be found.
Stalin has killed many people, but if you count the numbers that died in the War Hitler started, then Hitler killed more. In either case, Stalin had no more to do with Communism than George Bush.
And the Hammer and Sickle has absolutely nothing to do with Racism, where did you get that one from?

OK. This is going to get me horribly flamed probably, but I feel it has to be said anyway.

The communists here are being clear, and correctly so, about the difference between theoretical communism and the attempts to practice it that have happened. Stalinism and Maoism are not communism, they are totalitarian statism.

Now can we please turn an equally dispassionate eye on national socialism. I do not mean the Third Reich, that was a totalitarian statist militaristic dictatorship, rather like that of Stalin or Mao.

What National Socialism preaches is that the nation is supreme. That the nation is the source of the social structure, the welfare, the identity of the people in it. It is a socialist movement based on the concept of a nation, unlike the international socialist movements. The Nazis twisted this into supremecist and imperialist thought, but these are not necessary elements of a national socialist movement.

The swastika is not a symbol of national socialism though, it is a symbol of the Third Reich only, and as such it is not equivalent to the hammer and sickle

OK. This is going to get me horribly flamed probably, but I feel it has to be said anyway.

The communists here are being clear, and correctly so, about the difference between theoretical communism and the attempts to practice it that have happened. Stalinism and Maoism are not communism, they are totalitarian statism.

Now can we please turn an equally dispassionate eye on national socialism. I do not mean the Third Reich, that was a totalitarian statist militaristic dictatorship, rather like that of Stalin or Mao.

What National Socialism preaches is that the nation is supreme. That the nation is the source of the social structure, the welfare, the identity of the people in it. It is a socialist movement based on the concept of a nation, unlike the international socialist movements. The Nazis twisted this into supremecist and imperialist thought, but these are not necessary elements of a national socialist movement.

The swastika is not a symbol of national socialism though, it is a symbol of the Third Reich only, and as such it is not equivalent to the hammer and sickle

[Nods] It's possible that National Socialism could be an effective government system. The problem comes when part of it involves getting rid of anyone who isn't part of the national identity, and sending them back home into a torn-up country. (Yes, the deportation-into-war-zone only applies at the very beginning of things, I know) NatSoc isn't actually isolationist, not completely, but it does tend to limit immigration - if only because, presumably, it dictates that immigrants must forget their prior culture, which not many will want to do. So it slows population movement down. Can this be a good thing? Debatable.

It also implies a host of new crimes... Crimes Against Culture. You could, feasibly, be arrested for speaking a foreign language outside of lessons... even, possibly, for talking to anyone from a foreign country, because you might get 'infected' with their ideas. Bye-bye NationStates.

However, while pure NatSoc - just like pure Socialism - is unfeasible (yes, for different reasons), having some NatSoc policies could be good... like, say, giving aid to your own poor before trying to fix the rest of the world. It becomes more of a problem when it gets expansive... but that's an Imperialism issue.

Not a clue if I just made a point there.

OK. This is going to get me horribly flamed probably, but I feel it has to be said anyway.

The communists here are being clear, and correctly so, about the difference between theoretical communism and the attempts to practice it that have happened. Stalinism and Maoism are not communism, they are totalitarian statism.

Now can we please turn an equally dispassionate eye on national socialism. I do not mean the Third Reich, that was a totalitarian statist militaristic dictatorship, rather like that of Stalin or Mao.

What National Socialism preaches is that the nation is supreme. That the nation is the source of the social structure, the welfare, the identity of the people in it. It is a socialist movement based on the concept of a nation, unlike the international socialist movements. The Nazis twisted this into supremecist and imperialist thought, but these are not necessary elements of a national socialist movement.

The swastika is not a symbol of national socialism though, it is a symbol of the Third Reich only, and as such it is not equivalent to the hammer and sickle



This is true, and Fascism is one of the most effective governmental systems for the economy. Because everything is about the state. Nazism was turned bad because Hitler decided that scapegoats were needed. The Jews represented Capitalism and intellectualism, both of which do not advocate a strong national government. And everyone in power hates communists. I have no idea why, but governments everywhere seem to be absolutely paranoid about communists.

It sucks knowing the CIA hates me. Wait a minute, actually, I'm quite flattered!

I agree with Max!! NO Swastica but we should also remove the Hammer and sickle, but I do not think most people understand the history and that is so sad... Many that have posted here have no clue about the history..
Already Bejamin Franklin sad "Learn from history and you will not repeat the misstake, they did." and today most people haven't learn nothing from history and that is so darn sad. Because you are bound to make the same misstake again!!
I'm out of this discussion...

RBS

...What National Socialism preaches is that the nation is supreme. That the nation is the source of the social structure, the welfare, the identity of the people in it. It is a socialist movement based on the concept of a nation, unlike the international socialist movements. The Nazis twisted this into supremecist and imperialist thought, but these are not necessary elements of a national socialist movement.
Hmm...what are the theoretical foundations of National Socialism? Aren't they mainly the writings of people like Hitler and Goebbels - and as such fundamentally linked to racial theory and the destruction of the Jewish people?

Has anone noticed that nndh has a swasica as his flag. That is blantant disregard for the rules, because he knows he is not suppoused to have it. Also, for the hammer and sicle ban thing. Its what things come to represent, not their history. Che, he has come to represent revolution, however his history is that he was willing to kill as many people as need be to make it to the top. Hammer and sicle, represents communism, not the Soviet Union.

You guy crack me up, if it wasn't so darn serious. The Nazi came out of the Sosialistic party which came out of the Commies!! All of this garbage was and IS still to day the worst mass murder that the mankind have ever experience!!
So learn from the history and you will never make the same misstake AGAIN!!
The Nazis came out of the German Worker's Party, which called itself that to get votes from traditional communist voters. The Nazis hated the Sozis, and they got into regular street fights. The whole Spartakus-Aufstand was one such struggle.
And besides, Communism didn't make it's goal the extermination of "lesser peoples" unlike Nazism.

Has anone noticed that nndh has a swasica as his flag. That is blantant disregard for the rules, because he knows he is not suppoused to have it. Also, for the hammer and sicle ban thing. Its what things come to represent, not their history. Che, he has come to represent revolution, however his history is that he was willing to kill as many people as need be to make it to the top. Hammer and sicle, represents communism, not the Soviet Union.
What's the deal with swastikas in flags? Are we supposed to report it when we see something like that or do the mods actively look for them? What's the control mechanism?

It is forrbiden to make your flag swastika and that sort of things,but how can you make flags taht represents communism?
Do you people know what communism is?It is the worst evil of all goverments

Excuse me whilst I laugh at your expense.
The recent - and seeming growing lack of objectivism when it comes to political/social "isms" is alarming, disturbing,and quite frankly, hilarious.

Just because you FEEL that it's evil doesn't mean that it neccesarily is.
perhaps if you'd back up your claim that an "ism" is inherently evil (other than the obvious and pretentious satanism) or good, then maybe your complaint might carry some weight.

Unfortunately for you ,Nazis killed a good number of people.
There have yet to be any "true" communist/marxist nations.
a nation calling itself communist, while, obviously, not practicing the part - not sure why they do that.
they always devolve into a rather corrupt nationalist socialist nation.

I feel it neccesary to point out that I am not a communist.
Quite the contrary, i'm much more of a libertarian, but not purely so. purism is for fools and zealots.

The swastika in the flag crap has been discussed ad infinium. For a final answer, to all who haven't heard yet, let us go to Mr. Max Berry.

Max? Well, we actually don't know if violet was Max, but violet had this to say -

"I was asked (a while back now) to make a judgement on whether swastikas are acceptable to use in nation flags.

After consideration, I've decided: No.

Players who use swastikas in their nation flags should change them.

While this site generally allows for political debate and discussion, nations are held to a higher standard than forum posts, because there is no right of reply. An offensive post can be debated -- hopefully to the point where the poster learns something -- but an offensive flag, motto, or nation name just sits there.

The swastika is intricately associated with the Holocaust in public consciousness, and, as one of the greatest tragedies of the last century, it can reasonably be considered offensive for players to appear to endorse or celebrate it.

I understand that at least a few players who use swastikas in their flags do not intend this outcome, and can probably give me a long history lesson on the symbol; nevertheless, that is not the message the image sends."

For a MASSIVE disucssion, check here - http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=275081

As to your comments on Communism, OP, you've already had it explained to you by other posters in this thread, so I won't bother. Carry on Comrade, carry on.

Hmm...what are the theoretical foundations of National Socialism? Aren't they mainly the writings of people like Hitler and Goebbels - and as such fundamentally linked to racial theory and the destruction of the Jewish people?

It is not clear what the theoretical foundations of National Socialism are. It is a combination of limited isolationism and statist socialism. I suppose that the earliest examples of this could be attributed to China or perhaps Sparta (definately a nationalistic socialist authoritarian city state). The Nazi party, in the Third Reich, did include ethnic cleansing as part of their theory, but it is not inherent to a nationalist socialist ideal any more than restriction on religion is a necessary part of an international socialist state. The point I was trying to make is that people here are trying to rescue communism from the image of Stalin but no one seems to want to rescue fascism from the image of Hitler.

For a long time there have been two forbidden terms in Western politics - communist and fascist. The image of one of these is being massaged, the image of the other should be treated just as fairly.

It is not clear what the theoretical foundations of National Socialism are. It is a combination of limited isolationism and statist socialism. I suppose that the earliest examples of this could be attributed to China or perhaps Sparta (definately a nationalistic socialist authoritarian city state). The Nazi party, in the Third Reich, did include ethnic cleansing as part of their theory, but it is not inherent to a nationalist socialist ideal any more than restriction on religion is a necessary part of an international socialist state. The point I was trying to make is that people here are trying to rescue communism from the image of Stalin but no one seems to want to rescue fascism from the image of Hitler.

For a long time there have been two forbidden terms in Western politics - communist and fascist. The image of one of these is being massaged, the image of the other should be treated just as fairly.I disagree. National socialism has proven that it does no good and allowing people to polish its image is the wrong thing to do.

I disagree. National socialism has proven that it does no good and allowing people to polish its image is the wrong thing to do.

By that argument we should not allow people to distance communism from Stalinism. Communism has also proven to do no good. What is the difference bewtween the two in this sense (I know they are different ideals)?

By that argument we should not allow people to distance communism from Stalinism. Communism has also proven to do no good. What is the difference bewtween the two in this sense (I know they are different ideals)?Communism distanced itself from Stalin after his death. It hasn't been nearly as bad as Nazism. It's hard to argue this on the basis of normal rational arguements. Let's just say that Nazism is so much worse because I have yet to hear of lampshades made of human skin due to a communist government.
There are too many people about that would completely abuse the idea of distancing national socialism from Hitler for their own perverted ideals. Communism is based on a deep desire to combat social inequality, while Nazism blamed Jews for the defeat in WWI and set the stage for ethnic cleansing.

Communism distanced itself from Stalin after his death. It hasn't been nearly as bad as Nazism. It's hard to argue this on the basis of normal rational arguements. Let's just say that Nazism is so much worse because I have yet to hear of lampshades made of human skin due to a communist government.
There are too many people about that would completely abuse the idea of distancing national socialism from Hitler for their own perverted ideals. Communism is based on a deep desire to combat social inequality, while Nazism blamed Jews for the defeat in WWI and set the stage for ethnic cleansing.

The point I am trying to make, and which you appear to be refusing to see, is that Nacional Socialism is not Nazism, any more than communism is Stalinism.

We can agree that the Nazis committed atrocities, and I am not trying to wash their image. What I am trying to do is seperate the concept of fascist from that of specifically Nazi. The two are not the same thing, despite their identification in the popular mind. (Politically, by the way, I am as far from fascist as I am from communist. I am a free market liberal in the classic sense).

The point I am trying to make, and which you appear to be refusing to see, is that Nacional Socialism is not Nazism, any more than communism is Stalinism.

We can agree that the Nazis committed atrocities, and I am not trying to wash their image. What I am trying to do is seperate the concept of fascist from that of specifically Nazi. The two are not the same thing, despite their identification in the popular mind. (Politically, by the way, I am as far from fascist as I am from communist. I am a free market liberal in the classic sense).
I'm sorry, but Nazi is short for National Sozialist (Nah-tsyo-nahl Zoh-tsya-list) in German. Nazism is National Socialism.
National Socialism is a form of fascism, your right, it isn't quite the same thing, but Fascism is based on society having only one opinion, and that tends to lead to all sorts of messes.

I'm sorry, but Nazi is short for National Sozialist (Nah-tsyo-nahl Zoh-tsya-list) in German. Nazism is National Socialism.
National Socialism is a form of fascism, your right, it isn't quite the same thing, but Fascism is based on society having only one opinion, and that tends to lead to all sorts of messes.

A political group can call itself whatever it likes. Stalin claimed he was a communist. It does not necessarily make it true.

While National Socialism is authoritarian and impositional in ideology so is communism. All have to agree to the ideology for it to work in both cases. All I am trying to do here is to counter point those postrers that argued that communism is not bad as it is not Stalinism, by contending that fascism is not bad as it is not Nazism in the Third Reich style. I still believe the two ideologies to be wrong, but fascism is given a much harded time here than communism is, for no apparent reason apart from its identification with Hitler.

A political group can call itself whatever it likes. Stalin claimed he was a communist. It does not necessarily make it true.

While National Socialism is authoritarian and impositional in ideology so is communism. All have to agree to the ideology for it to work in both cases. All I am trying to do here is to counter point those postrers that argued that communism is not bad as it is not Stalinism, by contending that fascism is not bad as it is not Nazism in the Third Reich style. I still believe the two ideologies to be wrong, but fascism is given a much harded time here than communism is, for no apparent reason apart from its identification with Hitler.
Teehee... I'd be one of those that wouldn't consider Communism as bad as Fascism. Comparing the two systems, Fascism is way worse. Communism is based on the idea of fighting social inequality while fascism is about creating a society that marches in the same direction. The Soviets seriously screwed communism up, Marx himself thought it would be tried in an industrial country first, like Germany or the UK. Lenin was the guy with the idea of having "professional revolutionaries" that made sure everything got done right.

Teehee... I'd be one of those that wouldn't consider Communism as bad as Fascism. Comparing the two systems, Fascism is way worse. Communism is based on the idea of fighting social inequality while fascism is about creating a society that marches in the same direction. The Soviets seriously screwed communism up, Marx himself thought it would be tried in an industrial country first, like Germany or the UK. Lenin was the guy with the idea of having "professional revolutionaries" that made sure everything got done right.

I can agree that communism is based on the ideal of fighting social inequality, it is just that the way it has chosen to go about this requires everyone to march the same way. In this sense fascism is exactly the same. It too is based around removing social inequality, hence the socialism tag. It simply considers that this can only be done by eliminating the freedoms of the individual, while communism pretends that the individual is giving up these freedoms of their own choice. The difference to me (apart from the national - international aspects) is one of the interpretation of human nature. Communism is delusiory in that it assumes that people are naturally altruistic and interested in the common good in all things. Fascism is equally delusiory in that it assumes that people are only capable of doing socially good acts if they are forced to do them.

Me, I prefer a system where people are free to act as they wish within the limits of allowing this same freedom to others, but that is a subject for a different thread.

I can agree that communism is based on the ideal of fighting social inequality, it is just that the way it has chosen to go about this requires everyone to march the same way. In this sense fascism is exactly the same. It too is based around removing social inequality, hence the socialism tag. It simply considers that this can only be done by eliminating the freedoms of the individual, while communism pretends that the individual is giving up these freedoms of their own choice. The difference to me (apart from the national - international aspects) is one of the interpretation of human nature. Communism is delusiory in that it assumes that people are naturally altruistic and interested in the common good in all things. Fascism is equally delusiory in that it assumes that people are only capable of doing socially good acts if they are forced to do them. Fascism is more for the state than for the people, while communism was about an equal distribution of wealth. I disagree with you, fascism has an inherent ideological background that is worse than the communist one.

Me, I prefer a system where people are free to act as they wish within the limits of allowing this same freedom to others, but that is a subject for a different thread.
Ditto :D

Fascism is more for the state than for the people, while communism was about an equal distribution of wealth. I disagree with you, fascism has an inherent ideological background that is worse than the communist one.

That is a misunderstanding of Fascism, they are about the people, not about the state specifically. Just that they believe the way to provide for the people is through a strong state. You may of course consider the same set of restrictions to be worse because it comes from a different ideology from the one that you happen to support, but it is actually irrational to do so. The restrictions are still restrictions, regardless of their motivation.

That is a misunderstanding of Fascism, they are about the people, not about the state specifically. Just that they believe the way to provide for the people is through a strong state. You may of course consider the same set of restrictions to be worse because it comes from a different ideology from the one that you happen to support, but it is actually irrational to do so. The restrictions are still restrictions, regardless of their motivation.I haven't seen a fascist state that I could consider "for the people". The basic principle of fascism has always been "to bundle" the power of the people behind an authorative figure. This figure has pretty much always become synonymous with the fate of the nation as a whole.

It is forrbiden to make your flag swastika and that sort of things,but how can you make flags taht represents communism?
Do you people know what communism is?It is the worst evil of all goverments
Whatever dude. Communism is just an unworkable idea for a government. It doesn't need to be evil.

I haven't seen a fascist state that I could consider "for the people". The basic principle of fascism has always been "to bundle" the power of the people behind an authorative figure. This figure has pretty much always become synonymous with the fate of the nation as a whole.

Look what happens if we change the term fascist for communist in your claim.

"I haven't seen a communist state that I could consider "for the people". The basic principle of communism has always been "to bundle" the power of the people behind an authorative figure. This figure has pretty much always become synonymous with the fate of the nation as a whole."

I think this proves my point. If you are to argue from empirical data for one, then you have to do so for both. If you deny the empirical data for communism, then the empirical data for fascism is just as irrelevant.

Commies and Nazi IS THE SAME!!!!!! Nazi is National Socialist and the commies came from the same womb, it's the same garbage!! And don't give me this crap it's a diffrent. Nazi with Hitler killed millions about 8-10 millions of them about 7 million Jews, look at the Commie: Stalin 50 MILLION!! at least 25 million was jews, Mao at least 75-100 million!! People when are you going to learn!!
You guy crack me up, if it wasn't so darn serious. The Nazi came out of the Sosialistic party which came out of the Commies!! All of this garbage was and IS still to day the worst mass murder that the mankind have ever experience!!
So learn from the history and you will never make the same misstake AGAIN!!
I agree with Max!! NO Swastica but we should also remove the Hammer and sickle, but I do not think most people understand the history and that is so sad... Many that have posted here have no clue about the history..
Already Bejamin Franklin sad "Learn from history and you will not repeat the misstake, they did." and today most people haven't learn nothing from history and that is so darn sad. Because you are bound to make the same misstake again!!

Other than your blatant ignorance, you overuse of exclamation points offends me.

Communism is pretty cool, it's people that are evil.

Look what happens if we change the term fascist for communist in your claim.

"I haven't seen a communist state that I could consider "for the people". The basic principle of communism has always been "to bundle" the power of the people behind an authorative figure. This figure has pretty much always become synonymous with the fate of the nation as a whole."

I think this proves my point. If you are to argue from empirical data for one, then you have to do so for both. If you deny the empirical data for communism, then the empirical data for fascism is just as irrelevant.
Well, not really. Communist governments are theoretically dictatorships of the proletariat. Technically the people ruled themselves, which was the case in Russia with the Soviets (councils) until they were overthrown by Lenin and his ideas of "professional revolutionaries" that took the "sacrifice" on themselves to get things done. Besides, Krushchev got sacked. He was the authorative figure of the Soviet Union, but he was not synonymous with the fate of the nation.

As a communists I have a little to say on this issue.

A) The USSR was not communist, it did not keep to communist ideals and was Stalinist

B) AS with China.

Well, not really. Communist governments are theoretically dictatorships of the proletariat. Technically the people ruled themselves, which was the case in Russia with the Soviets (councils) until they were overthrown by Lenin and his ideas of "professional revolutionaries" that took the "sacrifice" on themselves to get things done. Besides, Krushchev got sacked. He was the authorative figure of the Soviet Union, but he was not synonymous with the fate of the nation.

In practice all communist states have become totalitarian authorative states almost immediately. The Soviet Union was not communist, as communism implies the rule of the proletariat as you say, and this never happened there. Likewise the Third Reich was not theoretically fascist, as this implies the supremacy of the state over any individual, whereas the Third Reich had variuos individuals who were above the state.

We could argue this forever if you are not willing to see that Nazism is no more true fascism than Stalinism is true communism. Either we judge by the theory, in which case fascism should not be getting the bad press it has, or we judge by the practice in which case communism is no better than fascism.

In practice all communist states have become totalitarian authorative states almost immediately. The Soviet Union was not communist, as communism implies the rule of the proletariat as you say, and this never happened there. Likewise the Third Reich was not theoretically fascist, as this implies the supremacy of the state over any individual, whereas the Third Reich had variuos individuals who were above the state.

We could argue this forever if you are not willing to see that Nazism is no more true fascism than Stalinism is true communism. Either we judge by the theory, in which case fascism should not be getting the bad press it has, or we judge by the practice in which case communism is no better than fascism.From the press point of view, communism as a bit better than fascism. I've talked to plenty of East Germans, and they didn't have that many problems, at least they don't say that life was in any way horrible. The Fascist dictatorships we've had were much worse than that.

From the press point of view, communism as a bit better than fascism. I've talked to plenty of East Germans, and they didn't have that many problems, at least they don't say that life was in any way horrible. The Fascist dictatorships we've had were much worse than that.

Tell me how they were worse.

From the press point of view, communism as a bit better than fascism. I've talked to plenty of East Germans, and they didn't have that many problems, at least they don't say that life was in any way horrible. The Fascist dictatorships we've had were much worse than that.

Um no, not really. Stalin was worse than Hitler in many ways. Fascism and Communism are both failed and evil idealogies. Communism is really quite impossible to implement properly and will always lead to dictatorship and misery for virtually all concerned. Both are extremely dangerous. Neither is "worse" than the other, as they both inhabit the same unacceptable position. Neither is justifiable and both has lead to suffering and pain. There has never been a true communist state and East Germans did not, despite your claims, enjoy anywhere near the standard of living enjoyed in the West, a capitalist democracy. Communism damaged East Germany and left it far behind the rest of the country. Just becaude life wasn't "horrible" does not mean that Communism did irreplicable damage to East Germany.

Tell me how they were worse.Prime example are the Nazis. For a joke about the Führer, you usually got killed. In the GDR, you got sent to solitary confinement for a couple months (not joking). The way dissenters were dealt with was different. Likewise, Franco did plenty of executing during the civil war. Russian prisoners tended to wind up in Gulags, but weren't necessarily killed outright.

Um no, not really. Stalin was worse than Hitler in many ways. Fascism and Communism are both failed and evil idealogies. Communism is really quite impossible to implement properly and will always lead to dictatorship and misery for virtually all concerned. Both are extremely dangerous. Neither is "worse" than the other, as they both inhabit the same unacceptable position. Neither is justifiable and both has lead to suffering and pain. There has never been a true communist state and East Germans did not, despite your claims, enjoy anywhere near the standard of living enjoyed in the West, a capitalist democracy. Communism damaged East Germany and left it far behind the rest of the country. Just becaude life wasn't "horrible" does not mean that Communism did irreplicable damage to East Germany.The whole thing about communism being bad is what I try to tell the East Germans, but they don't agree. Of course they didn't enjoy the same standard of living or even the freedom of opression, but you'd be surprised how often I'm told that I'm wrong, things weren't that bad by people that lived through it. (I didn't, my mom and her parents fled through Berlin when it was still open). I'm not saying communism is good, I'm saying that it was better than fascism, like a nasty bruise is better than a broken arm.

The whole thing about communism being bad is what I try to tell the East Germans, but they don't agree. Of course they didn't enjoy the same standard of living or even the freedom of opression, but you'd be surprised how often I'm told that I'm wrong, things weren't that bad by people that lived through it. (I didn't, my mom and her parents fled through Berlin when it was still open). I'm not saying communism is good, I'm saying that it was better than fascism, like a nasty bruise is better than a broken arm.

The country I live in had, until the mid 1980s, a fascist military dictatorship as did most nations in South America. What is amusing now is that some of the older people here argue that life was better under the dictatorship than it is now with a free democracy. Does that sound at all familiar to you. It sounds just like the stories that you are hearing from the East Germans.
As to what happened to you if you criticised Stalin, it was the same as what happened if you criticised Hitler. What happened here if you criticised the military leadership was the same as happened in East Germany. You went to prison while you were investigated. My father in law was imprisoned and tortured here for being a member of a very moderate trade union. The same would have happened in East Germany if you tried to publish an uncensored newspaper. The two systems are utterly comprable in the effects on the people.

People likewise say that life wasn't that bad under the military here. So long as you did what they wanted, did not oppose them and accepted your limited freedoms as being all you deserved, then it may not have been. Exactly like the situation in East Germany. Facism did not only exist in Europe, which is often forgotten. There have been many fascist states around the world besides Germany, Italy and Spain.

...What is amusing now is that some of the older people here argue that life was better under the dictatorship than it is now with a free democracy. Does that sound at all familiar to you. It sounds just like the stories that you are hearing from the East Germans...That's exactly what some Germans were like after WW2. Its the same everywhere. There's even some Iraqis that say similar things. Only the people I talk to were pretty young and they don't say things were better, they just say things weren't as bad as everyone says (this might not sound like a difference, but somehow it is... its really hard to convey using only text.)

As to what happened to you if you criticised Stalin, it was the same as what happened if you criticised Hitler. What happened here if you criticised the military leadership was the same as happened in East Germany. You went to prison while you were investigated. My father in law was imprisoned and tortured here for being a member of a very moderate trade union. The same would have happened in East Germany if you tried to publish an uncensored newspaper. The two systems are utterly comprable in the effects on the people. I'm not sure about the torture, but the East Germans mainly used solitary confinement and otherwise left them alone. But that doesn't count for all communist countries. Stalin was more of a power hungry, paranoid mad man than a communist (read about the man... he was pretty sick), but Hitler lived and breathed Nazism.

People likewise say that life wasn't that bad under the military here. So long as you did what they wanted, did not oppose them and accepted your limited freedoms as being all you deserved, then it may not have been. Exactly like the situation in East Germany. Facism did not only exist in Europe, which is often forgotten. There have been many fascist states around the world besides Germany, Italy and Spain.I know that Fascism isn't only a European phenomenon, I just don't know enough about the South American dictatorships to use examples from them. But from what I've read and heard, fascism tends to be worse than communism.

The Swastika symbol actually outdates the NSDAP (Nazi Party) by hundreds of years. It has been traced back to both Buddist and Hebrew roots, generally signifying harmony in nature, or eternity. I've even seen a synagogue with a Swastika pattern in its brickwork!

Not that I have any sympathy towards fascists, but Hitler being the 'artist' that he was, appropriated (ie: stole) the symbol for his own purposes.

During the '70s various members of the punk movement (Dead Boys, Siouxie and the Banshees, Sid Vicious) used the symbol as a provocatory tool to elicit a reaction from bigots who couldn't see past the Nazi connotation. They had no actual fascistic politics - and were indeed apolitical in that sense.

Communism is represented by a hammer and sickle, or a five-pointed star - and the colors red and gold. It is a form of economy based on utopian principles of financial equality, pretty far from evil wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately an acceptable system of implementation has yet to be found, and is all too easily corrupted by those in power, who generally - if not evil - have been seriously unpleasant characters.

Oh, and for the dullards who think Naziism and communism have the same provenance simply because of the 'National Socialist' title:

Hitler cynically used the socialist part to attract anti-Weimar left-wing supporters. He paid lip service to socialism in the early stages of his campaign to reel in a few lefties, though he personally loathed socialism. Once the Nazis had a stong enough support, he dropped the pretence, but the party's title remained.

The Nazi party was not socialist

Hitler was a socialist. His regime provided comprehensive welfare for his citizens (well, those who weren't jewish), and he supported the nationalisation of many key industries. He also believed in the rights and welfare of the worker (albeit the Aryan worker). Socialists should accept that a lot of bad people have followed their ideology, just as a lot of bad people have followed other ideologies.

Hitler was a socialist. His regime provided comprehensive welfare for his citizens (well, those who weren't jewish), and he supported the nationalisation of many key industries. Socialists should accept that a lot of bad people have followed their ideology, just as a lot of bad people have followed other ideologies.
His donation programs were really socialist in the end of the war. Donate to the needy (the state) or get shot for treason.

You are correct. Both are socialistic in base and are extreme radical ideas. I think the larger issue here goes beyond NS flag designs. From the time we are able to understand who Hitler was, we learn that he and Nazism are the ultamate manifestation of our world. However, communism seems to get off the hook all too often. Why is this as the numbers killed (as you point out) are horrible from both. Hopefully, the day will soon come when we recognise communism for what it is- on an even plain with Nazism and a terrible time in human history.

...probably because most of the people who write the books and history channel shows are liberal... and wouldn't dare show the Dark Side of Communism.


It isn't an accident that the heads of Communist nations are almost invariably brutal and dictatorial:

Communism stamps out financial freedom... there is natural resistance in people that makes us want to succeed, to do better than get the same loaf of bread and can of borscht every week, and to have to wait three hours in line to get them. Problem is, Communism severaly limits the opportunity for people to better their economic status because it punishes entrepreneurialism.

These "free-market thinkers" are likely seen by leaders of Communist regimes as a virus that must be stopped before it spreads to others. How DARE they want a freer economic climate? Don't they know that tax-and-divide equally, regardless of how smart you are or how much you contribute to the wealth of the nation, is the Communist way? That we keep things arbitrarily equal no matter what a person does?

Well if people get it into their heads that they want to be free to be businesspeople... if people are sick of having a totally crappy economy and horrible product offerings/quality/value... if people are sick of being stuck in the same job their whole life... Communism will be replaced by free-enterprise, or a mixture of free-ent and socialism, and the dictator can't have that.

So you have Stalin killing millions of countrymen. Were they all in on a conspiracy to turn Russia into a capitalistic/free-market country? Probably not... but probably some of them were.

...probably because most of the people who write the books and history channel shows are liberal...

Because they are qualified to do so, having had an education and being intelligent.

As opposed to the average Bush supporter - being (as we intelligentsia like to call them) 'thick as shit'.

Anyone noticed that trend?

Because they are qualified to do so, having had an education and being intelligent.

As opposed to the average Bush supporter - being (as we intelligentsia like to call them) 'thick as shit'.

Anyone noticed that trend?
I haven't... My dad's a Republican and I learned most of what I now from him...

Because they are qualified to do so, having had an education and being intelligent.

As opposed to the average Bush supporter - being (as we intelligentsia like to call them) 'thick as shit'.

Anyone noticed that trend?

Bush has a higher IQ than Kerry. The reason the liberals have a hold on the education system is not their intelligence, it's just the after effects of the counterculture and hippie movements.

(see sig)

Bush has a higher IQ than Kerry. The reason the liberals have a hold on the education system is not their intelligence, it's just the after effects of the counterculture and hippie movements.
You know, I was sure it was the other way round-maybe I was mistaken...so it's not the liberals fault that the repulblicans are not well educated. Humm.everything the liberal fault isn't it.

Hitler was not a socialist nor was the Third Reich a statist economy. Even Mussolini described fascism as corporatism. The state was the major business partner but it did not control corporations. That is why it was so popular in America with Wall Street and people like Ford.
As for communism, Stalin, mao and even Lenin ignored Marxist ideals whenever they felt it was best. Stalin modeled his dictatorship on the fascism present in the west. Lenin appointed proffessional revolutionaries and allowed the liquidation of farmers where in socialism they would manage their farms with government management taking profits and using them for equipment etc.. and then giving the farmers their fair share of the money. Mao essentially established a new empire. China had always poked its head into business.

It is forrbiden to make your flag swastika and that sort of things,but how can you make flags taht represents communism?
Do you people know what communism is?It is the worst evil of all goverments


Hello, my friend, with post count *looks*, wow...a whopping total of 1...I have a few bits of wonderful advice for you, so please read the following message very carefully:

1. Your grammar is somewhat lacking. Please remedy this situation.

2. Your post may or may not be considered flamebait in some situations. Please try to refrain from posting in such a manner.

3. Calling anything but one of our rather vicious NSers 'evil' is usually a no-no. Don't do it again, little guy.

Hitler and the Nazis were Fascists. It is very difficult to see a difference on a theoretical or practical basis.
Stalin was a Fascist too. It was a personality cult, the strong eat the weak, the foreign enemy that had to be crushed...it's all there.

Communism is primarily an Economic and Social Theory. One that cannot be realised in real life. Instead, "Communist" countries got stuck on the stage that Marx called "Socialist" - where private property was abandoned, the Capitalists overthrown and often murdered and so on. But instead of moving away from that and freeing the Proletariat, they imposed a totalitarian system that is best compared to Fascism in Italy or Germany. The rhetoric was different, the practice was the same.

I've always seen Fascism as primarily a vehicle for certain individuals to consolidate their dictatorships when Religion was no longer a binding factor (as it had been through the Middle Ages).
Secondarily, Fascism is more or less the practice of using social Darwinism in the real world - and as such theoretically linked to ethnic cleansing, genocides and racial ideology.

So that's why I say Communism isn't bad (we've never seen it), although unworkable, but Fascism is workable and will always lead to horrible things happening and as such is a much greater threat.

As for dictatorships that aren't Fascist, that is an entirely different matter...

Hitler and the Nazis were Fascists.As much as Stalin and Pol Pot were communists.

It is very difficult to see a difference on a theoretical or practical basis.
Stalin was a Fascist too. It was a personality cult, the strong eat the weak, the foreign enemy that had to be crushed...it's all there.
It is not difficult to see the difference if you actually allow there to be a theoretical basis. While you deny this and require that fascism is about ethical cleansing and militaristic imerialism, then you will not see the difference any more than a lot of people can not see the diference between Stalinism and Communism.

Let us try describing the principles behind national socialism, or fascism as it is known. It starts with the idea that to succeed people have to co-operate, that individualism is bad as it introduces conflict and competition where co-operation should exist. Now to supress individualism there has to be something that the people hold to be more important than themselves. In the case of national socialism it is the nation that is set up as being the important concept. What is good for the nation is good for each and every individual in that nation. It is important to separate here the notions of nation and ethnic group, they are not the same and truew national socialism pays no attention whatsoever to the race or ethnic origin or religion of the members of its society. What happens is children are encouraged to think of the nation as a father figure, as a provider. Parents are encouraged to turn to the nation to support them in any difficulties. The nation, through the government, provides for all. Thus it is a socialist system, based on the goodwill and good intentions of the nation. Now, does that sound like Nazi Germany? Well it does sound like Nazi Germany in 1929.

One of the weaknesses of national socialism is that it is very easy for it to corrupt into militaristic dictatorship. The people depend on the nation, the people worship the nation, it is easy to portray certain groups as threats to the nation, to require extraordinary measures to preserve the nation against the threats from without, and from within. Does any of that sound familiar at the moment?

Communism is primarily an Economic and Social Theory. One that cannot be realised in real life. Instead, "Communist" countries got stuck on the stage that Marx called "Socialist" - where private property was abandoned, the Capitalists overthrown and often murdered and so on. But instead of moving away from that and freeing the Proletariat, they imposed a totalitarian system that is best compared to Fascism in Italy or Germany. The rhetoric was different, the practice was the same.
Agreed that the practice of communism has been as far from the theory as the practice of national socialism or fascism has. Neither Italy nor Germany were truly fascist, they were, like Stalinist Russia, military dictatorships.

I've always seen Fascism as primarily a vehicle for certain individuals to consolidate their dictatorships when Religion was no longer a binding factor (as it had been through the Middle Ages).
This has been true of European fascism, but here in South America it has not always followed that path. It was supported by the USA to keep the left out of power, but in many countries here it did not consolidate power in charismatic individuals. The danger in both Communistic systems and Fascist ones is when there is a strong personality at the head of the movement. Then both are easily corrupted.

Secondarily, Fascism is more or less the practice of using social Darwinism in the real world - and as such theoretically linked to ethnic cleansing, genocides and racial ideology.
Flat wrong I am afraid. The eugenics programs of the Nazis had nothing to do with fascism. There was no equivalent program in either Italy or Spain, nor in any of the South American fascist dictatorships. National Socialism identifies with a nation, not with an ethnic group. The USA is bordering on National Socialism at the moment (I am not saying it is there yet) and the pride is for the USA and Americans, regardless of race. The Nazi ideology has been adopted by racists, but the Nazi ideology that included the anti-semitic actions was by that stage no longer national socialism.

So that's why I say Communism isn't bad (we've never seen it), although unworkable, but Fascism is workable and will always lead to horrible things happening and as such is a much greater threat. That communism is unworkable is due to basic human nature, if this were a little different then a communist system could arise, but this would be just as vulnerable to the charismatic leader as national socialism is. They are both as bad as each other in that sense as they concentrate power in the hands of a very few.


As for dictatorships that aren't Fascist, that is an entirely different matter... Very few have been fascist, most have been militaristic. The only truly successful fascist dictator that comes to mind, is one that claimed to be communist - Tito.

...Now, does that sound like Nazi Germany? Well it does sound like Nazi Germany in 1929.
You mean 1939 I presume.

Agreed that the practice of communism has been as far from the theory as the practice of national socialism or fascism has. Neither Italy nor Germany were truly fascist, they were, like Stalinist Russia, military dictatorships.
I think we might have to distinguish clearly between National Socialism and Fascism.
National Socialism: The ideology that was invented by and practiced by the NSDAP in Germany. And therefore linked to the racial agenda of the Nazis.
Fascism: The political system you described, which in my view so far always needed an enemy to keep the people together. But not necessarily racially motivated.

National Socialism identifies with a nation, not with an ethnic group.
National Socialism is the term coined by the NSDAP in Germany. It therefore encompasses everything the NSDAP stood for, which includes the identification with an ethnic group as the core of the nation.

But in conclusion, I say "Nazi"-Ideology is always linked to race, and as such must be condemned always.
Fascism may be different, so far we haven't seen it, but nonetheless, I wouldn't want to advocate it, nor live in a fascist state.

Communism stamps out financial freedom... there is natural resistance in people that makes us want to succeed, to do better than get the same loaf of bread and can of borscht every week, and to have to wait three hours in line to get them. Problem is, Communism severaly limits the opportunity for people to better their economic status because it punishes entrepreneurialism.

These "free-market thinkers" are likely seen by leaders of Communist regimes as a virus that must be stopped before it spreads to others. How DARE they want a freer economic climate? Don't they know that tax-and-divide equally, regardless of how smart you are or how much you contribute to the wealth of the nation, is the Communist way? That we keep things arbitrarily equal no matter what a person does?
i've always thought of communism as where the government gives people an amount of payment in some form based on how well they work or some other variable, and socialism as a government where the government takes everything,then redistributes it back to everyone in exactly equal portions. that's why i don't like socialism and like communism. i guess that what i supported was much more similiar to fascism than i thought.

Nazi Germany was a fascist nation... Fascism is the opposite of communism.
So they are not the same.
Go to school.

You mean 1939 I presume.
No. I meant 1929. The Nazi Party became popular in Germany as a consequence of the Great Depression which had knock on effects in Europe. It was not until 1933 that the NAzis became severely authoritarian. See here (http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=22701)


I think we might have to distinguish clearly between National Socialism and Fascism.
National Socialism: The ideology that was invented by and practiced by the NSDAP in Germany. And therefore linked to the racial agenda of the Nazis.
Fascism: The political system you described, which in my view so far always needed an enemy to keep the people together. But not necessarily racially motivated.
The National Socialist policies of the NSDAP in Germany when it was formed were those of fascism that I described. It is only later that the racial agenda was included as the policies were corrupted by Hitler in particular. I agree that the fascist system thrives best with an external enemy, but it does not actrually require one.

National Socialism is the term coined by the NSDAP in Germany. It therefore encompasses everything the NSDAP stood for, which includes the identification with an ethnic group as the core of the nation.
Check your history on this. At its foundation the NSDAPO had no racial or ethnic agenda, just a nationalist one.

But in conclusion, I say "Nazi"-Ideology is always linked to race, and as such must be condemned always.
Agreed, so long as this is separated from fascist ideology as Stalinism is separated from communist ideology.

Fascism may be different, so far we haven't seen it, but nonetheless, I wouldn't want to advocate it, nor live in a fascist state.
Well South America has seen it, without the racist aspect. I agree that it is a restrictive system and one which I would not want to live under but it is one which does not deserve the complete demonization it has recieved any more than communism does.

... Besides, Krushchev got sacked. He was the authorative figure of the Soviet Union, but he was not synonymous with the fate of the nation.
Khrushchev wasn't the only Soviet supreme leader who was dismissed while alive. Can you name another one? (I don't mean Gorby, of course -- his country just ceased to exist.)

I agree with Max!! NO Swastica but we should also remove the Hammer and sickle, but I do not think most people understand the history and that is so sad... Many that have posted here have no clue about the history..
Already Bejamin Franklin sad "Learn from history and you will not repeat the misstake, they did." and today most people haven't learn nothing from history and that is so darn sad. Because you are bound to make the same misstake again!!
I'm out of this discussion...

RBS

This is brilliant. For someone who has absolutely no idea about history to be lecturing people on history. Maybe you should learn to spell and form a grammatically correct sentence before you start lecturing people on history?

You were never in this discussion.

Fascism and Communism are not the same - they're opposite ends of the political spectrum. Despite this, people like Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini didn't really know or care what ideology they stood for as long as they still got to be in charge. They twisted what philosophers said to justify their actions and said simply what the people wanted to hear. After all, Mussolini was originaly a member of the Communist party in Italy but then changed to Fascism when he saw it was more popular.

Its interesting how most people tend to think Communism is inherantly evil. Too many people confuse the ideology of communism with the examples of atrocities in Russia by Stalina nd Lenin and China by Mao.

The trouble is that communism should not be forced onto people like in these countries. For communism to work properly, without bloodshed and starvation like Russia, it must be a natural progression when capitilism has finished. The communist ideal is, in theory, a perfect model of how government should be...and prehaps the best way to run a country...but in practice it hardly ever works because it is too open to crazy dictators and places like Britain and America (especially the latter) seem to think that it is backward or evil.

Keep in mind that a lot of our allies are communist. China is communist and we fought along side them in WWII. They can elected their leader and even fire him if he's doing a bad job. We cant even fire someone if we just dont like them (not in middle of their term). The problem is with communism is that its based off the back that their leader will never do anything wrong. The leader has complete controll. There is on one to keep him in check. Every government has got problems with it. The only perfect government, is not to have government at all (lol). But I love America I'd rather be here than anywhere else.

This is brilliant. For someone who has absolutely no idea about history to be lecturing people on history. Maybe you should learn to spell and form a grammatically correct sentence before you start lecturing people on history?
You were never in this discussion.
And no one can be as perfect as you are?? Yeah right!!
Stop bitching about peoples spelling and grammer!! If you haven't understood People from the whole earth comes in to this forum...

You guy crack me up, if it wasn't so darn serious. The Nazi came out of the Sosialistic party which came out of the Commies!! All of this garbage was and IS still to day the worst mass murder that the mankind have ever experience!!
So learn from the history and you will never make the same misstake AGAIN!!


Not true. The only connection between Nazis and Communists was hatred. The Nazi party came out of a movement formed by a man called Lanz von Liebenfels (?) and had nothing to do with communism.

ALL political systems are corrupt. The American flag stands as much for oppression as does the Nazi's flag. ANY nation exploits it's population, and the populations of other countries. The poor suffer the same under ANY banner. It is HUMAN NATURE people. The Nazis are no better or worse than anyone else. Anyone who asserts that they are has a serious case of the terminal stupids. The swatztika is a religious symbol. The Nazis flipped it around and stuck it on their flag. Big whoop.
I don't even see how the Nazis could be considered racist, seeing as how Jews are Caucasian... Psychotic, definately, but name me a government that isn't...
We just need our boogeymen to keep people in line, and the Nazis work very well, due to the power wielded by their administration. So, six million jews died. Wow. EIGHT million soviets died. Where's the outpouring of sympathy for them? Oh yeah, they were godless commies, so they don't count. Pshhh...
What about Japanese "atrocities"? They were JUST as vile as the Nazis. As were the Americans when they dropped the bomb. Or when we fire bombed civillians. Or when they hired Nazi and Japanese scientists... Need I go on?
The Nazis can even be said to be a force for progress, as many of their experiments led to new medical knowledge, previously denied us because of the squeemishness of people regarding human test subjects. There are those of us who know that atrocities are just as neccessary and vital to human existance as is altruism...

We have become a world of useless, hand-wringing ninnies.

huh...


and i thought the cold war was supposed to be over?...