NationStates Jolt Archive

Most of the creationism debates I've heard seem to center around atheists promoting evolution and christians (as well as other major religious types) promoting creationism. I am a staunch Christian but I think that the very concept of creationism is extreamly flawed. I was just wondering if I'm the only one here.

Most of my belief on this subject stems from historical evidence, not scientific. Scientific viewpoints on one side or another would be more than welcome.

I doubt you're alone. I'm not one of you, but I know there's no inherent conflict between belief in God or gods and worship of that God or gods and belief in evolution. Religion and science run in different circles--faith and empirical evidence--and never the twain shall meet.

Of course you're not alone.

I can't remember just how many times I've tried to explain to people that the Genesis-accounts are more of a moral fable than a scientific explanation of the world.
Evolution can't account for everything yet, maybe some major changes will have to be made to the theory in the future, but that's no ground to believe that the world was created in 7 days. I sometimes find this assumption today a bit of escapism, really...

The Catholic Church allows it's members to make their own mind up about creation.

The Catholic Church allows it's members to make their own mind up about creation.

That's one thing I keep wondering. Are there any confessions or churches that reject the evolution theory and require their members to believe in creationism?

Actually, the Catholic Church declared ages ago that the bible can only be used for spiritual guidance, not as a basis for natural science. Therefore, Catholic teaching tends to agree with evolution rather than creationism

Most of the creationism debates I've heard seem to center around atheists promoting evolution and christians (as well as other major religious types) promoting creationism. I am a staunch Christian but I think that the very concept of creationism is extreamly flawed. I was just wondering if I'm the only one here.

Most of my belief on this subject stems from historical evidence, not scientific. Scientific viewpoints on one side or another would be more than welcome.

What about evolution started by God? Actually, I suppose you must believe in something like that (which is still creationism, albeit a different kind), if you're a Christian and believe in evolution unless you think God came into existance later.

The arguement that it is either or is promoted by those who either fundementally beleive there is no God - which is a ligitimate stance, and those who beleive without question that the scriptures are Gods will and expression and disregard reasonable scienticif proof, which is just silly.

I personally beleive there is a higher form of existance from which we stem and it either created us or set in motion the forces that lead to our existance.

Well, evolution doesn't give an explanation for how the univers started in the first place, and that's where a number of Christians would place god. As good any other explanation, really.
I don't regard this as creationism, as creationism normally claims that god played an active role in creating each individual species and in the creation of the planet as such.

Listen, I don't wanna offend any Catholics, you must understanbd I do not intent to, but I just love that scene in Monty Python's Meaning of Life where all the kids are singing:


Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm gets wasted, God gets quite irate...


And it really mocks the whole thing of catholics not being allowed to use a condom..hey, i just thought- are they allowed to use any type of contraeception at all? just wondered....

Well, evolution doesn't give an explanation for how the univers started in the first place, and that's where a number of Christians would place god. As good any other explanation, really.
I don't regard this as creationism, as creationism normally claims that god played an active role in creating each individual species and in the creation of the planet as such.
Being perfectly honest, the Big Bang doesnt make much more sense than God going 'poof'.

Anyway, Im a Christian that beleives in evolution. I have no problem with God creating a single-celled bacterium and providing it with a few challenges to get it to gradualy grow into bigger and better bacteriums, plants, animals, jellyfish and so forth.

Well, evolution doesn't give an explanation for how the univers started in the first place, and that's where a number of Christians would place god. As good any other explanation, really.
I don't regard this as creationism, as creationism normally claims that god played an active role in creating each individual species and in the creation of the planet as such.



I was on this one online debate where there was a raging argument about whether God created the universe, or whether it was the Big Bang, and this dude says:

Isn't it obvious? I'm positive that God made the Big Bang happen.


I was like...WTF??? I mean, you can take compromise too far. Still, it was a nice thought. Who knows?


I mean, there are string theorists out there. i SO don't get string theory myslef, but there's a reason for everything.

Two words: False Christians!

Does it matter whether we are Catholic? Hey I'm with you against creationism

The Catholic Church allows it's members to make their own mind up about creation.

i do not belive this too be true... if this was so then IMO they would teach BOTH creationism AND evolution in thier schools however the latter is usually strongly discouraged... along with abstonance being the only thing tought and no teaching of prevention of std's and other secually realated materials... which are VERY important in todays society (imo)

i do not belive this too be true... if this was so then IMO they would teach BOTH creationism AND evolution in thier schools however the latter is usually strongly discouraged... along with abstonance being the only thing tought and no teaching of prevention of std's and other secually realated materials... which are VERY important in todays society (imo)
Odd...you seem to have zero posts...

Anyway, the Catholic Church has acknowledged that evolution is compantable with its beleifes, its on Wikipedia, I beleive.

Two words: False Christians!

Two words back: Not true.

Odd...you seem to have zero posts...

Anyway, the Catholic Church has acknowledged that evolution is compantable with its beleifes, its on Wikipedia, I beleive.

im new here... i saw htis post in the top threads thing... anyways i still dont see em teaching it too... at least around here they dont

im new here... i saw htis post in the top threads thing... anyways i still dont see em teaching it too... at least around here they dont

The Catholic churches in Europe do not see it as an issue so its left upto the individual who will usually not express an opinion. Creationism is a very American thing as far as I can tell.

Listen, I don't wanna offend any Catholics, you must understanbd I do not intent to, but I just love that scene in Monty Python's Meaning of Life where all the kids are singing:


Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great, if a sperm gets wasted, God gets quite irate...


And it really mocks the whole thing of catholics not being allowed to use a condom..hey, i just thought- are they allowed to use any type of contraeception at all? just wondered....


Well, officially Catholics are not allowed any form of artificial contraception. That is to say, they are allowed to be abstinent or else to use the temperature-methode to avoid pregnancy. Everything else is condemned by the church.
However, as a former student of a Catholic school run by Catholic nuns, I can assure you that the reality is different. Our school made dead sure that we knew ALL there is to know about contraception and how to avoid STDs, there were no taboos at all.
Imagine a group of 20 giggling 10 year old girls and a nun pulling a pink condom demonstratively over a banana... unforgetable :)

The Catholic churches in Europe do not see it as an issue so its left upto the individual who will usually not express an opinion. Creationism is a very American thing as far as I can tell.

Must be extremely American, really. I never heard a word about that before coming to this forum...

Being perfectly honest, the Big Bang doesnt make much more sense than God going 'poof'.

I'm pretty sure Gods 'poof' was quite a big bang , seeing as we ended up with a universe thats at the very least a couple of thousand light years across.

My sugestion: Get rid of the wikipedia and pick up a Bible. There is where you will find moral and righteous solutions to everyday problems. Try the book of Proverbs. GOD bless!

My sugestion: Get rid of the wikipedia and pick up a Bible. There is where you will find moral and righteous solutions to everyday problems. Try the book of Proverbs. GOD bless!
By the way, I've foiund Jesus, he's upstairs in case you want him.

My sugestion: Get rid of the wikipedia and pick up a Bible. There is where you will find moral and righteous solutions to everyday problems. Try the book of Proverbs. GOD bless!

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you (Lev 11, 10)?

When the plague of leprosy is in a man, then he shall be brought unto the priest (Lev 13, 9)... Infinite wisdom, just imagine, I would have consulted a doctor. Silly me.

I could go on no end, but I think you get my point. The bible is not much use as a lexicon...

i do not belive this too be true... if this was so then IMO they would teach BOTH creationism AND evolution in thier schools however the latter is usually strongly discouraged
We learnt in religious education (RE) in a catholic school about the creation according to the bible and were told in the same lesson that this is an allegory for the development of the world and not to be taken literally.

We then learnt about evolution in biology and the development of earth (including continental drift) in geography. We were taught about sex, stds and contraception in biology and RE. In RE we were additionally told (by the priest teaching it) how much better it is not to have sex before marriage, but it was stressed that if we did engage in sexual intercourse we'd better use the necessary precautions!

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you (Lev 11, 10)?

When the plague of leprosy is in a man, then he shall be brought unto the priest (Lev 13, 9)... Infinite wisdom, just imagine, I would have consulted a doctor. Silly me.

I could go on no end, but I think you get my point. The bible is not much use as a lexicon...

:rolleyes: Oh, very original. I think the Bible is silly, so I'm going to quote Leviticus. I've never seen that one before.

Must be extremely American, really. I never heard a word about that before coming to this forum...

I knew of it but I only ever see it here

:rolleyes: Oh, very original. I think the Bible is silly, so I'm going to quote Leviticus. I've never seen that one before.

I don't think the bible is silly.
I think it's silly to claim to take the entire bible literally, that's all.

:rolleyes: Oh, very original. I think the Bible is silly, so I'm going to quote Leviticus. I've never seen that one before.

just because you have seen the argument before doesn't make Cabra's point any more viable

Edit: This is pretty obvious but I don't find the Bible silly either

(Directed particularly at Arnburg)

Jesus's parables may have had a profound truth to them, but nobody is arguing over whether some day in the past a Samaritan did indeed help a Jewish man where a priest and scholar stepped over him. In the end of the day, it doesn't matter either; the historical accuracy of his story doesn't take away from the validity of his point that strongest is he who cares for his neighbour rather than he who believes in a particular thing.

Things can be true without being factual. It is possible to accept that God may have been responsible for the start without manually crafting every single thing in a matter of 6 linear days. Is it really too bizarre to suggest that God could design a system whereby life could generate itself?

I knew of it but I only ever see it here

I had heard rumours that some states in the US were trying to get evolution out of the school curriculum, but I remember thinking "Yeah, sure. Some more America-bashing, trying to show how ignorant they are" and really didn't take it seriously.

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you (Lev 11, 10)?

When the plague of leprosy is in a man, then he shall be brought unto the priest (Lev 13, 9)... Infinite wisdom, just imagine, I would have consulted a doctor. Silly me.

I could go on no end, but I think you get my point. The bible is not much use as a lexicon...
That is more Jewish than Christian, though...Leviticus.

Most of the creationism debates I've heard seem to center around atheists promoting evolution and christians (as well as other major religious types) promoting creationism. I am a staunch Christian but I think that the very concept of creationism is extreamly flawed. I was just wondering if I'm the only one here.

Most of my belief on this subject stems from historical evidence, not scientific. Scientific viewpoints on one side or another would be more than welcome.

The bible states that Jesus is God, Jesus states we are to believe the bible, the bible says that God created us not that we evolved from microorganisms. IF the bible is correct and there is an evil power, lucifer/satan, who seeks to deceive the world (like how he tried to deceive Christ in Matt 4) then I think you have your answer as to why the idea of evolution has come into play.

I recognize that one could make the same argument for my belief to an extent however I use the bible as my guide. It sets a number of rules and guidelines that when taken IN CONTEXT help in knowing how to live life and what is true and what is false. The fact that humankind over the years has wanted to prove the bible in its entirety as false and over the years they prove more and more of it true (as science finds evidence of historical records showing that there was a King David, there was a Jesus of Nazareth, ...) shows that at least part of the bible is true. Time magazine Dec 18, 1995 had an excellent article noting what parts of the bible had been proven factual thus far. If one is interested in that I am sure you could find it in your local library.

Obviously there will be some who disagree in my viewpoints however I ask you, if the bible is correct in its entirety, if there is an evil one who seeks to trick all into following him, then could it not be possible that my viewpoint as noted above is correct?

Those who actually have read sincerely what I have said above, I suggest praying for guidance from God and reading the bible for yourself.

Those who do not agree with my point of view, well I am sure you will tell me what you think of my opinion quite soon now won't you. :)

That is more Jewish than Christian, though...Leviticus.

Well, so's Proverbs. Some Christians claim that the entire bible has to believed literally, that would include the old testament.

I had heard rumours that some states in the US were trying to get evolution out of the school curriculum, but I remember thinking "Yeah, sure. Some more America-bashing, trying to show how ignorant they are" and really didn't take it seriously.

fair point, its harsh that they are labelled with Creationism but its the only place where it really thrives.

I don't think the bible is silly.
I think it's silly to claim to take the entire bible literally, that's all.

lol. :rolleyes: here we go, lets go from the second most controversial Christian debate topic (creationism) to the most controversial one: Scriptural Interpretation! This will be fun!

lol. :rolleyes: here we go, lets go from the second most controversial Christian debate topic (creationism) to the most controversial one: Scriptural Interpretation! This will be fun!

to be fair this is about creationism and the whole basis of creationism is scriptual interpretation as far as I'm aware

Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.

- DV 11

And that's dogmatic.

<snip>

I personally hold it with the Catholic church in that respect. They treat the bible as a spiritual guide, but no longer claim that it is absolutely right in relation to matters of natural science.

Therefore, the Genesis accounts, the garden of Eden and Noah's story are regarded as parabels, as moral fables rather than scienctific reports.

My sugestion: Get rid of the wikipedia and pick up a Bible. There is where you will find moral and righteous solutions to everyday problems. Try the book of Proverbs. GOD bless!

I've got a Bible, but it doesn't answer the same questions the Wikipedia does. Say you want to look up cheesecake. You can find a very informative entry on it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheesecake but I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the Bible.

I had heard rumours that some states in the US were trying to get evolution out of the school curriculum, but I remember thinking "Yeah, sure. Some more America-bashing, trying to show how ignorant they are" and really didn't take it seriously.

Agreement there. And then I saw the news articles. WTFBBQ?

The bible states that Jesus is God, Jesus states we are to believe the bible, the bible says that God created us not that we evolved from microorganisms. IF the bible is correct and there is an evil power, lucifer/satan, who seeks to deceive the world (like how he tried to deceive Christ in Matt 4) then I think you have your answer as to why the idea of evolution has come into play.

I recognize that one could make the same argument for my belief to an extent however I use the bible as my guide. It sets a number of rules and guidelines that when taken IN CONTEXT help in knowing how to live life and what is true and what is false. The fact that humankind over the years has wanted to prove the bible in its entirety as false and over the years they prove more and more of it true (as science finds evidence of historical records showing that there was a King David, there was a Jesus of Nazareth, ...) shows that at least part of the bible is true. Time magazine Dec 18, 1995 had an excellent article noting what parts of the bible had been proven factual thus far. If one is interested in that I am sure you could find it in your local library.

Obviously there will be some who disagree in my viewpoints however I ask you, if the bible is correct in its entirety, if there is an evil one who seeks to trick all into following him, then could it not be possible that my viewpoint as noted above is correct?

Those who actually have read sincerely what I have said above, I suggest praying for guidance from God and reading the bible for yourself.

Those who do not agree with my point of view, well I am sure you will tell me what you think of my opinion quite soon now won't you. :)

Sure, the Bible has been a valid history book, recording the movement of Semetic peoples across the Middle East. That does not mean that everything in it is to be taken literally. Jesus did not mean that he would have Simon (Peter) and Andrew haul a boat around on land and throw nets on people when he told them to follow him and be fishers of men. It is the power of figurative speech. The creation story did a good job explaining where people came from for a long time, but it is a myth, designed to give an answer to that eternal question of 'where did we come from?' Now we have another answer that explains in chemical and biological terms where we came from. Does it mean that God does not exist? No. Does it mean that you cannot accept Jesus as your savior? Of course not. Is science out to destroy religion? Nope.

I've got a Bible, but it doesn't answer the same questions the Wikipedia does. Say you want to look up cheesecake. You can find a very informative entry on it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheesecake but I don't recall it ever being mentioned in the Bible.

(27) And Thus did Jeremiah ask onto the Lord, "Oh great God, may we feast upon this cake of cheese?" (28) To this, the Lord did respond "It is a creation of Man, and must therefore be not used by you except in offerings to me". And the people rejoiced. (29) There were those who continued to create the cakes of Cheese for the enjoyment of man, but they were driven from the chosen people, for they had sinned against their God.

(30) And the prophets did proclaim: "Let them not have cake".

Most of the creationism debates I've heard seem to center around atheists promoting evolution and christians (as well as other major religious types) promoting creationism. I am a staunch Christian but I think that the very concept of creationism is extreamly flawed. I was just wondering if I'm the only one here.

Most of my belief on this subject stems from historical evidence, not scientific. Scientific viewpoints on one side or another would be more than welcome.
depublicants she has not posted here yet depublicants1 is a Christian that does not believe in creationism (though possibly ID … )

Most of the creationism debates I've heard seem to center around atheists promoting evolution and christians (as well as other major religious types) promoting creationism. I am a staunch Christian but I think that the very concept of creationism is extreamly flawed. I was just wondering if I'm the only one here.

Most of my belief on this subject stems from historical evidence, not scientific. Scientific viewpoints on one side or another would be more than welcome.


I am both a Christian and a scientist. I have no problem at all reconciling the two. My belief in God is simply separate from the science I study - which isn't a problem, as the realm of science - the natural world - does not encompass God.

Even on the debates here, you would be surprised how many are Christians or at least theists arguing against the idea of Creationism being science.

depublicants she has not posted here yet depublicants1 is a Christian that does not believe in creationism (though possibly ID … )

ID in the sense that there is an intelligent creator out there? Yes.

ID in the sense that "It's all too complicated to understand so I'm just going to say God did it and stop actually studying biology"? No.

=)

Those who actually have read sincerely what I have said above, I suggest praying for guidance from God and reading the bible for yourself.

What if we've done that and come to the conclusion that the two Genesis stories are metaphorical?

Are you going to then suggest that we go back and pray again?

It reminds me of an old joke in a southern town about a church that wouldn't allow black members:

A young black man walked up to the deacon of the church and said, "Sir, I had a dream last night, and God told me to come to this church." The deacon said, "Boy, you better go back and dream again - you had the wrong dream." A week later, the same conversation occurred. A week later, same thing.

Finally, the young black man stopped trying to come to that church. The deacon ran into him in town and asked, "Boy, did you have a different dream?"

The black man replied, "Yes I did. I dreamed that I was talking to God and I told him I couldn't get into the church. God replied 'Don't worry my son. I've been trying to get into that church for 40 years!' and I figured if God can't get in, I definitely can't."

ID in the sense that there is an intelligent creator out there? Yes.

ID in the sense that "It's all too complicated to understand so I'm just going to say God did it and stop actually studying biology"? No.

=)
That’s what I meant … an originator at some point :)