NationStates Jolt Archive

I have been speaking to a few of my friends for the past hour and telling them why I wont be going to the Bonfires tonight (yeah i'm a northern irish "protestant") but all of their arguments for the Twelfth are strongly bigoted and sectarian. In almost every other area of their lives they are nice guys and good friends but in this one area they disgust me.

My question is this:

Would you continue to consider people like this friends or would you cut all ties with them?

Well, I typically ignore it when some of my friends say, I dont like immigrants, but you're all right.

My entire family in France is comprised of hard-working, educated, kind, generous, reasonable people. I have heard most of them, at some point or another, blame Europe's troubles on N. African immigrants. Do I disagree? Yes. Have I stopped speaking to them? Not so much.
If your friends are good people, keep them as friends, but ask them not to express their political opinions to you, if it really upsets you. Depriving yourself of thier company will not change thier opinions.

Yes! There are more of us!

I meet those kinds of guys quite frequently (in fact, there's a chance I may have met those guys, but we'll not go into that). The answer is, in my opinion, that even if you want to cut ties, it helps to keep a human face on the troubles. If you can think that the issues in Ulster are just two groups of guys like that then you can hope in a recovery. Let's face it, the guys they're condemning are just like them, only they've been brought up in a different neighbourhood. If you can get along with them fine, then there's a possibility that maybe the Catholics can learn to appreciate that in them, and your friends and those like them can begin to relate to that aspect in their nationalist counterparts.

So stick with them. You don't need to condone their opinions (in fact, don't even give the slightest hint of agreement) but shunning people for their opinions is exactly what's causing the problem.

My former best friend is an ardent anti-semite who points to his own and his families expereinces for proof and reason for his views. Personally, I think all the examples he gives are of Jews being better businessmen than him or his family, but I never said as much to him. I tried voicing my own opinions on the matter, but he just brushed them aside. I didn't let it get in the way of the friendship, as he was an otherwise good and extremly intelligent person. I found his intolerance a little baffling though, considering the fact the he's a homosexual who has himself suffered at the hands of intolerant bigots.

We stopped talking sevral months ago, but it was because he's turned into a bloody psychopath who thinks throwing knives at people is a reasonable action during an arguement. He blames the Jews for his anger, but I could care less about that really. I hope he regains his perspective and gets some balance back into his life sometime soon. I expect we'll someday become friends again, but I doubt his bigotry will have disappeared. Its his problem, not mine.

I have friend's with racist views. I don't agree but what can you do? I think I am right and they think they are right, there's no point arguing. Maybe I am being cowardly or overly polite but I just ignore it. In a debating society I might argue but in the real world why rock the boat? They've never broken the law and if they want to vote BNP well that's their business. As the phrase goes, discuss anthing with friend's except religion and politics.

I have been speaking to a few of my friends for the past hour and telling them why I wont be going to the Bonfires tonight (yeah i'm a northern irish "protestant") but all of their arguments for the Twelfth are strongly bigoted and sectarian. In almost every other area of their lives they are nice guys and good friends but in this one area they disgust me.

My question is this:
Would you continue to consider people like this friends or would you cut all ties with them?
Do you consider these people to be good friends? Have you ever had a serious problem that they helped you through? If so, then I think you should try to be their friend in spite of your variances of opinion. If not, then I think you should try to build up the courage to tell them exactly what they think, and not worry about if you hurt their feelings or not.

Would you continue to consider people like this friends or would you cut all ties with them?

In my experience some of my friends go to the bonfires out of a sense of community, rather than any directly sectarian motivation.



Personally I'll be watching the one on Annadale Embankment from the 'other' side of the river myself.

EDIT: Test for your friends: ask them what date the Battle of the Boyne was actually fought on...

In my experience some of my friends go to the bonfires out of a sense of community, rather than any directly sectarian motivation.



Personally I'll be watching the one on Annadale Embankment from the 'other' side of the river myself.

EDIT: Test for your friends: ask them what date the Battle of the Boyne was actually fought on...

Yeah i didnt mean to imply that all people that go to the twelfth celebrations are sectarian. I was just referring to my friends motives. I spent the day in Portadown in a parade although admittedly i was in a giant puss in boots costume but it definitely helped to give me some different views on the parades

I have been speaking to a few of my friends for the past hour and telling them why I wont be going to the Bonfires tonight (yeah i'm a northern irish "protestant") but all of their arguments for the Twelfth are strongly bigoted and sectarian. In almost every other area of their lives they are nice guys and good friends but in this one area they disgust me.

My question is this:

Would you continue to consider people like this friends or would you cut all ties with them?

I'm totally ignorant as to what the bonfires are.. please explain and how are they racist ?

Before I came out, I had several friends who were bigots, but after coming out, I unsurprisingly shed them, because I had gained too much self-respect to associate with such people.

If it was my friends, I'd try to educate them. Set them up. Trick them into befriending some of the people they hate. It's the only cure.

Alternatively, I'd beat the living shit out of them and chase them out of my town - just like all the other scum.

Alternatively, I'd beat the living shit out of them and chase them out of my town - just like all the other scum.

Hmmm. Nice way to start yet another Loyalist feud...


... or find yourself getting a six pack.

I'm totally ignorant as to what the bonfires are.. please explain and how are they racist ?

I didnt say they were racist. I said that in my experience there can be quite a lot of sectarian sentiment among some of the people who go to the celebrations i.e. burning of the irish flag.

I'll see if i can find a good website that explains the meaning behind the Twelfth

Would you continue to consider people like this friends or would you cut all ties with them?

I'd beat them senseless with the nearest heavy and pointy thing.

cut all ties
I like to cut ties.

http://img298.imageshack.us/img298/2379/cutties4sl.jpg

I like to cut ties.

http://img298.imageshack.us/img298/2379/cutties4sl.jpg

Ooh, kinky!

Hmmm. Nice way to start yet another Loyalist feud...


... or find yourself getting a six pack.
Actually... What would loyalism have to do with anything?

People who participate in violence and oppression against others are just stealing my air. And I don't tolerate theives. It goes for both sides, and racists in general.
I'm not the one starting the aggro. I just respond. Cause and effect mate. I'll fight for your right to be a racist or even a nazi. But the minute you start to recruit people, advocate violence or participate in violence and/or oppressive behaviour, is the minute I go hunting for you.
I have absolutely no qualms about putting scum in intensive care, and I'll keep doing it untill they get the fuck outta my town.

so now that the 12th is over are they still going to be assholes? will they say bigoted things out of the blue? do they DO bigoted things?

if its just the one time of the year that gets them going, i wouldnt worry about it but just try to steer them toward a more enlightened view of things. if they are constant assholes who contribute to the troubles of society, show them to the door.

How much do their views effect you?

If you're still able to think of them as friends and treat them as such, then stay friends. If it is too big a problem for you to be able to continue being friends with them, don't. Simple.

"Follow your heart" :D

I think there an be no simple, general answer to that. I had similar problems with some people I used to know.

The thing is, your differences won't go away if you just keep you opinion to yourself. You'll build up anger inside anytime you keep your mouth shut while listening to them.
Dicussing the issue might turn out difficult as well, I don't know if you friends are going to accept your different point of view or if they themselves will have problems with it.
What I experienced a number of times is a slow drifting apart because of a general political or social issue two or more friends disagreed on.

I have serious doubts that it would help if you tried to "trick" them into befriending Irish Catholics to show them that they are good people. It might backfire in case they find out they're Catholic before they find out they're good people. And even if you are successful and they like each other and get along, this most likely won't change the views of your friends, as they would regard those Catholics as exceptions to the rule.

What you have to decide is, how important is the issue to you? In the long term, you might either have to compromise your political views or your friendship. Which of the two is it going to be?

In my case, more often than not, it was the friendship that lost in the end..... :(

so now that the 12th is over are they still going to be assholes? will they say bigoted things out of the blue? do they DO bigoted things?

if its just the one time of the year that gets them going, i wouldnt worry about it but just try to steer them toward a more enlightened view of things. if they are constant assholes who contribute to the troubles of society, show them to the door.
That's solid advice. In a lot of cases, people act in a bigoted way almost subconsciously, and can be shocked out of it when confronted by it--you might try that as well. Try to stay away from the attitude that they're bad people unless further investigation proves that to be the case.

Actually... What would loyalism have to do with anything?

Loyalism... Bonfires... 12th of July... fairly obvious connection, no?


I'm not the one starting the aggro. I just respond. Cause and effect mate. I'll fight for your right to be a racist or even a nazi. But the minute you start to recruit people, advocate violence or participate in violence and/or oppressive behaviour, is the minute I go hunting for you. I have absolutely no qualms about putting scum in intensive care, and I'll keep doing it untill they get the fuck outta my town.

I take it the contradiction here is self-evident to you.

Wouldnt it be kind of hypocritical if you are intolerant of intolerance? Let them have their bigoted beliefs, just dont share them.

Wouldnt it be kind of hypocritical if you are intolerant of intolerance? Let them have their bigoted beliefs, just dont share them.

Normally I'd agree, but Northern Ireland is one of the few places who can say that we have a perfectly representative democracy; When our people have bigoted beliefs, our politicians have bigoted beliefs.

When those bigoted beliefs of our politicians are directed at each other, nothing gets done and we have to go cry to Tony, who really doesn't give a damn.

It's a problem that will remain as long as such beliefs exist.

Having grown up with one side of my family being card carrying, pointed white hat wearers known as the Klan and the other half being Native American I learned very early not to give up on family. After having a couple of different kids come into the family myself a mix of white and Indian, a couple of homosexuals and the real kicker my cousin married a black man. They came around. It took us living our lives and being upfront about who and what we were. Now not a one of them is a member of the Klan these days.

You don't have to pretend to like what they say and you should tell them when they are being idiots. But you don't have to give up a friendship that is important to you either just because you don't see eye to eye.

Regards,


JMayo

so now that the 12th is over are they still going to be assholes? will they say bigoted things out of the blue? do they DO bigoted things?

if its just the one time of the year that gets them going, i wouldnt worry about it but just try to steer them toward a more enlightened view of things. if they are constant assholes who contribute to the troubles of society, show them to the door.

Well to be honest they can be like this most of the time. It doesnt have to be a special occasion. I tell them that i'm going to Derry to meet up with my friend Fionualla and the first response I get is a suspicious "Is she a green then?" But even if it is just on one occasion does it matter. That they can do it at all just means that the rest of the time it is suppressed rather than being allowed free reign.

I have been speaking to a few of my friends for the past hour and telling them why I wont be going to the Bonfires tonight (yeah i'm a northern irish "protestant") but all of their arguments for the Twelfth are strongly bigoted and sectarian. In almost every other area of their lives they are nice guys and good friends but in this one area they disgust me.

My question is this:

Would you continue to consider people like this friends or would you cut all ties with them?

What is this even about? I have no idea what the siginificance of the Bonfires or Twelfth is about.

I think there an be no simple, general answer to that. I had similar problems with some people I used to know.

The thing is, your differences won't go away if you just keep you opinion to yourself. You'll build up anger inside anytime you keep your mouth shut while listening to them.
Dicussing the issue might turn out difficult as well, I don't know if you friends are going to accept your different point of view or if they themselves will have problems with it.
What I experienced a number of times is a slow drifting apart because of a general political or social issue two or more friends disagreed on.

I have serious doubts that it would help if you tried to "trick" them into befriending Irish Catholics to show them that they are good people. It might backfire in case they find out they're Catholic before they find out they're good people. And even if you are successful and they like each other and get along, this most likely won't change the views of your friends, as they would regard those Catholics as exceptions to the rule.

What you have to decide is, how important is the issue to you? In the long term, you might either have to compromise your political views or your friendship. Which of the two is it going to be?

In my case, more often than not, it was the friendship that lost in the end..... :(

For my birthday recently I got a lot of friends together to go out for a few drinks to celebrate and for some general craziness. The people that went along were from different groups of friends and as a result it was pretty much 50/50 catholic and protestant. Unfortunately my catholic friends have obviously catholic names and as such I couldnt keep it from my friends not that I ever tried to. They spent the entire time keeping to themselves and would only ever give short, curt answers to anything said to them by my other friends. I know that some people just act in this way to fit in (one friend I know acts this way) but in others it seems too deeply rooted

What is this even about? I have no idea what the siginificance of the Bonfires or Twelfth is about.

They celebrate the victory in irish history at the Battle of the Boyne by King Billy which effectively maintained a protestant royalty