NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm curious as to which of the Ten Commandments people think must be followed.

Note: Unfortunately, there are only 10 poll options. So if you think none should be followed, simply say so.

Caveat: Just stick to the damn topic. It's a concept so simple, even Jesus freaks are capable of doing it. It says OT, so keep it OT. Besides, we all know the loopholes people can use to not have to follow some of these "commandments," so save it.

I was personally under the impression that you either accept them as the word of god and thus follow them all, or don't.
I didn't think you could pick and choose.
But personally, I don't think they have any influence on what I do. Some of my personal values (like not murdering people) correlate with them, but I don't consider the commandments important.

I was personally under the impression that you either accept them as the word of god and thus follow them all, or don't.
I didn't think you could pick and choose.
But personally, I don't think they have any influence on what I do. Some of my personal values (like not murdering people) correlate with them, but I don't consider the commandments important.

Alright, well I guess I should rephrase,
What values do you have that coorelate with the Ten Commandments?

I would say none of my views correlate with them (entirely).

As I feel morals are subjective, all of the commandments can be broken, but I only would if they suit my needs, and more importantly, the needs of my species.

Edit: Nihilistic tripe aside, I'll place my votes anyways, as it makes it easier to see the poll. What I vote on pertains to the majority of the time.

You don’t have to follow any of the Ten Commandments, Jesus will forgive you for breaking them. However, someone who is truly born again will strive to adhere to all of them.

Edit: The way you phrased some of those is a bit off, but whatever.

So I would say "don't kill", "don't steal" and "don't lie about others" should just about do it.

Numbers six, seven, and nine are the only ones that are basically non-negotiable for me personally. That doesn't mean that I can't think of situations where those actions could be justified, but rather that I could never entirely forgive myself for doing them, no matter how good my reasons.

Honorable mention to number eight, which I believe is inherently wrong, but which I could forgive myself for under extreme circumstances (e.g. stealing bread from a grocery store to feed my starving family). The other six are either entirely meaningless for a non-Christian/Jew or just kind of pointless.

Numbers six, seven, and nine are the only ones that are basically non-negotiable for me personally. That doesn't mean that I can't think of situations where those actions could be justified, but rather that I could never entirely forgive myself for doing them, no matter how good my reasons.

Bah. I guess you're right. I don't have it in me to kill people, even if they are a waste of space.

The other six are either entirely meaningless for a non-Christian/Jew or just kind of pointless

Don’t forget Muslims.
Also, many non-Western cultures view honoring ones parents as essential.

Someone there voted for "don't lie about others" but against "don't kill"...
Must've been a soldier-type or something.

is it true there is a different order/version that Protestants and Catholics use?

Yes, some denominations combine the "God is #1" and "Worship only Him" into the first one, and separate the "covet" into "covet another's wife" and "covet another's stuff." Either way, it's ten.

All these people who follow the bible so much and love to quote it, seem to forget one thing when they glorify the ten commandmants so much: Nowhere does it say there are only ten; that list is not inclusive.

They seem to forget the importance of Jesus, when asked what was the greatest commandment, said that none were the "greatest."

Jesus said "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." For quoting the bible so much, extreme "Christians" sure get their stuff wrong; it's obvious what Jesus meant: just follow what he said. Unless, of course, you're Jewish, then you have no obligation to follow the New Testament. But those who claim to follow it, should actually do it.

Don’t forget Muslims.
Also, many non-Western cultures view honoring ones parents as essential.

Oops. Can you tell it's 1:45 AM where I am? "Muslim" should have been in there, too...

Also, I classify "Honor thy father and thy mother" as kind of pointless, rather than irrelevant to non-westerners, seeing as I tend to honor anyone who earns honor anyway. If it read "Honor good people" I'd be all for it, but "Honor your father and mother even if they are evil stupid murderers who kick puppies for fun" seems, well, dumb.

all twelve of them.

you left out "love your neighbor as you love yourself."

you left out "love your neighbor as you love yourself."

That's not one of the Ten Commandments. Also, it's not practiced or enforced in either bible.

I'm curious as to which of the Ten Commandments people think must be followed. Also, as these are listed in the OT order, I was wondering whether another question could be answered: is it true there is a different order/version that Protestants and Catholics use?

Note: Unfortunately, there are only 10 poll options. So if you think none should be followed, simply say so.
I'm not Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, but rather... I just believe in God. And I believe all of them should be followed as well many other "commandments." What Christians fail to realize, and one reason why both Jews and Muslims agree Christians distorted the Bible, is that there are far more than just ten commandments.

But simplifying it to those main ten made it easier for converts. The original Christians were hippies and anti-Roman rebels (which is why it was originally referred to as a "cult" than a religion). And following all of the commandments is too difficult, too restrictive.

Try telling people, "Hey! Become a Christian! ...But.. You have to follow these 613 laws or we'll kill you."

It doesn't work. But 10 general rules is a lot easier. Also, in my opinion, some of the rules put forth in Jews' 613 mitzvot (all of God's commandments in the Torah) are incorrect, either misinterpretations or completely fabricated. Same goes for the rules put forth in the Qu'ran. Yes, I believe all of the major religions have been "tainted" in some way. Baha'ullah did not purify Islam anymore than Muhammed purified Christianity anymore than Jesus purified Judaism anymore than Moses purified the local religions that Judaism was based upon.

The important thing to realize is that it's better to form your own conclusions about morality based upon reason. "The golden rule" is a perfect foundation for all morality. But it's silly to put forth a list of prohibited activity, without any basis for it... Such as not eating pork, having gay sex, or worshipping other Gods. After all, you've never seen Pagans stoning people, burning people at the stake, or going on Ji'hads. Yes, I'm sure there were examples of it in the past. But this merely shows that no religion is "superior" to another, nor ever will be. However, they're all good, in their own distinct ways and their interpretations of morality become more civilized as society becomes more civilized, just as with Judaism and Christianity, whose interpretations have undoubtedly changed to fit a modern view.

Yes, but many of the 613 are extensions of these 10, or are quite outdated (more so than some of the 10).

I voted for "thou shalt not kill" however, ALL of them should be followed.

Yes, but many of the 613 are extensions of these 10, or are quite outdated (more so than some of the 10).
But not all. Orthodox Jews also argue that NONE of them are "outdated." Non-Orthodox Jews would agree with you...

All of them must be followed. Or else it wouldn't be there. But which one is more important? Number One, obviously.

This was Jesus answer when he was asked:

Mark 12:29-31 (New International Version)
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

That's not one of the Ten Commandments. Also, it's not practiced or enforced in either bible.

Try these:

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Matthew 22:36-38
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


Jesus way is all about LOVE!

Yes, some denominations combine the "God is #1" and "Worship only Him" into the first one, and separate the "covet" into "covet another's wife" and "covet another's stuff." Either way, it's ten.

All these people who follow the bible so much and love to quote it, seem to forget one thing when they glorify the ten commandmants so much: Nowhere does it say there are only ten; that list is not inclusive.

They seem to forget the importance of Jesus, when asked what was the greatest commandment, said that none were the "greatest."

Jesus said "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." For quoting the bible so much, extreme "Christians" sure get their stuff wrong; it's obvious what Jesus meant: just follow what he said. Unless, of course, you're Jewish, then you have no obligation to follow the New Testament. But those who claim to follow it, should actually do it.

*Whine* But I want to justify war and capital punishment under the guise of the currently dominant religion. Why can't I use old testament rules and new testament standards?

OT. If you're not good enough, you should be killed in a brutal and painful fashion.
NT. No one's good enough, so let God worry about who to punish.
GOP. No one's good enough, so let's kill whoever we want in a brutal and painful fashion.

Mmkay ... now what about the other 603 commandments?

I voted for "thou shalt not kill" however, ALL of them should be followed.

Yup. Personally I make sure to have all my other God's behind Yahweh's back. When he turns around and starts complaining I just tell him, "hey! I tried to keep from having Athena before you, but if you're going to go turning around all the time yelling 'a-ha' then how am I supposed to keep up? I think you owe me and the lady an apology."

I voted for all of them except for #4. I believe that nowadays the Sabbath is on Sundays.

If that poll option had been worded differently, I would have voted for all 10.

Mmkay ... now what about the other 603 commandments?

They are only for Jews. And of those, some are only for specific groups like ones for men, women, priests, etc. so you don't follow all 603.

Generally, the ones that must be followed are 4-10. The first two are kind of faith specific, and so is the one about Shabbat.

I voted for all of them except for #4. I believe that nowadays the Sabbath is on Sundays.

Not for Jews and Muslims. Not the point, though. The day of rest and celebration was appointed, but nothing specific said about which day. Be it Sunday or Wednesday, so long as you take at least one, you're good to go.

They are only for Jews.

I see. Is that written somewhere? A passage where Jesus, who kept kosher, says, "Verily I say unto you that a ham sandwich is tastey." perhaps?

Not for Jews and Muslims. Not the point, though. The day of rest and celebration was appointed, but nothing specific said about which day. Be it Sunday or Wednesday, so long as you take at least one, you're good to go.

But the poll option specifically said "Saturday." I believe in the principle behind it.

I see. Is that written somewhere? A passage where Jesus, who kept kosher, says, "Verily I say unto you that a ham sandwich is tastey." perhaps?

Jesus never actually said anything about that, so I don't know for sure. The writings of the NT apostles argue that idea, but I don't know.

If you look at many of the laws they are very faith specific:

http://www.pressiechurch.org/Theol_2/All%20613%20laws.htm

the 10 commandments were the core of the law. jesus came and fulfilled the law. we now follow jesus, not a list of do's and don't's

I'm going with "Don't Kill" not because of God, but because 25 to life doesn't seem like a good time to me..lol

Originally Posted by Keruvalia
I see. Is that written somewhere? A passage where Jesus, who kept kosher, says, "Verily I say unto you that a ham sandwich is tastey." perhaps?

There's a passage somewhere in the NT, in Acts I think - I can't remember exactly where - when Peter has a vision of like a sheet coming down from Heaven loaded with animals and stuff, and God tells him to eat, but Peter protests that he can't eat 'unclean' food (unclean by Jewish law that is) then God tells him not to reject food that He has purified (something like that, the exact wording escapes me)

the 10 commandments were the core of the law. jesus came and fulfilled the law. we now follow jesus, not a list of do's and don't's

Blah blah blah, how many of the 10 commandments are actual law? I'll give you a hint, less than half.

None must be followed, 6-9 are good guidelines for social animals such as ourselves though they are not absolute.

Yah. 6,7, and 9 are good for me. Dont personally belive in an all-powerful being that can say "I smite thee!" and you get smited?...smote? anyway. 6, 7, and 9.

Blah blah blah, how many of the 10 commandments are actual law? I'll give you a hint, less than half.
only 4 and only 3 are currently enforced by a majority of countries:

Do not murder (the original meaning of the translated word, which eliminates hunting and killing in hot blood or combat)
Do not steal
Do not commit Adultry (still a law in most countires although usually only used as a grounds for divorce now)
Do not bear false witness (perjury).

Granted I'm talking about the world as a whole here. There are specific countries and areas which do have as law and enforce it others of the 10 commandments or close versions thereof.

Religiously for Christians it is stated that when Christ died the law died with him and his ressurection brought with him a new law written on the hearts of man, thus rendering the OT law moot. It does not deminish the guidelines set forth by them though.

Also as a point of interest, Adultry was originally defined as either a man having sexual realtions with a married woman(other than his wife) or a married woman having sexual relations with a man other than her husband. But that's a topic for another thread

Define "must" - as in "which ones must you follow". (original post)

The answer is NONE, because the only "must" (according to the Christian faith, and Biblical scripture) to get to heaven is to be saved, thru' Jesus - blah blah blah, you've heard it all before.

Which ones SHOULD be done?
All of them, I would think - tho' that's certainly up to the individual. I have plenty of friends (some of them Christians, in more than just name) who "Take the name of the Lord [their] God in vain" - are they losing salvation? No. Are they a bad person? No.
Will God have something to say to them, when they finally die and head off to those pearly gates?
..Who am I to say?

You don’t have to follow any of the Ten Commandments, Jesus will forgive you for breaking them. However, someone who is truly born again will strive to adhere to all of them.

Edit: The way you phrased some of those is a bit off, but whatever.

Wow, the stupidity of Protestants never ceases to amaze me. You "don't have to follow any of the Ten Commandments, Jesuse will forgive you for breaking them", eh? Amazing, that you have discovered something which no other Christians have known for 2000 years. All those silly people who thought that in order for them to follow Jesuse and go to heaven they would have to follow God's Commandments. No wonder the Crusades happened, those people were just excersizeing their new freedom to kil people, right? I'm curious, where in the Bible does it say this? And how come you somehow "know" this, but other Christians do not? Since when did God suddendly reverse his "No Sin" policy? And I have another question for you "enlightened" Christian. I am a Roman Catholic and proud of it, does that mean, according to your "knowledge", that I am no longer saved? Funny, I could have sworn that in the Bible Jesus started the Catholic Church, and you wouldn't have you Bible if it wasn't for the Catholic Church, because it was the original Catholics who put it all together. But I'm sure you already knew that and have said your thanks to the Church. Also, the Jews were God's chosen people in the Old Testament, correct? Ok, so does that mean that since they all didn't drop everything and follow Jesus, that they are not saved to? God just up and abandonded them? Hmph, some loving God that is if he did that. And who are you to decide if someone is saved or not? Isn't that up to God to decide? Or did he offer you a job as a security guard at the Pearly Gates too, while he was giveing you these other "revalations"? Go peddle your nonsense somewhere else

Blah blah blah, how many of the 10 commandments are actual law? I'll give you a hint, less than half.
Well done bright boy. The ten commandments were the core of the LAW OF MOSES, that is JEWISH LAW. Rather than have "law of Moses" everytime, it's just shortened to "law".

When he said he came to "fulfil the law, not negate it" why would Jesus be speaking about the law of the USA, England or France if they even didn't exist? Use your noggin next time.

"Blah blah blah" yourself.

You know, when you typed that, considering the nature of your reply, I got the picture of a fool with their hands over their ears saying "blah blah blah" and then speaking about something that wasn't even said to them.

Yah. 6,7, and 9 are good for me. Dont personally belive in an all-powerful being that can say "I smite thee!" and you get smited?...smote? anyway. 6, 7, and 9.
Well let's wait and see. ;) Are you certain of the exact day or hour you will live until?

There's a passage somewhere in the NT, in Acts I think - I can't remember exactly where - when Peter has a vision of like a sheet coming down from Heaven loaded with animals and stuff, and God tells him to eat, but Peter protests that he can't eat 'unclean' food (unclean by Jewish law that is) then God tells him not to reject food that He has purified (something like that, the exact wording escapes me)

Yeah, but that was an analogy for gentiles being accepted into the kingdom of God.

The law still stands, and were we to obey the law the rewards would occur in THIS life. Our eternal life is guanteed through GRACE, not the law - which was never intended as the roadmap for eternal life. It was an agreement between God and Israel.

"You keep these laws, I shall be your God"

It was never a one way agreement. A "do this or else". God had his part of the bargain too.

Jesus said the law still stands. Technically all those laws are applicable. As said though, we live under his grace, so that we CHOOSE to follow laws out of a loving desire to remain in close connection with God, rather than any fear of hell or retribution.

"Perfect love covers a multitude of sins".

Commandment #11: Don't be a fuckwit.

Do it all or don't, they're not ranked.

Wow, the stupidity of Protestants never ceases to amaze me. You "don't have to follow any of the Ten Commandments, Jesuse will forgive you for breaking them", eh? Amazing, that you have discovered something which no other Christians have known for 2000 years. All those silly people who thought that in order for them to follow Jesuse and go to heaven they would have to follow God's Commandments.

Alright chill for a bit here. First of all technically they would be correct. From enerything I've read in the Bible there is no sin that is unforgivable (I know some would say suiscide but I've not found a verse to directly support that only obliquely. Different topic though). Secondly, Undelia is not the first to make such a statement nor claimes to be (the first in the thread maybe) so you above rant of him/her "discovering" such is baseless. People have been saying it for centuries.

No wonder the Crusades happened, those people were just excersizeing their new freedom to kil people, right?

The Crusades occured because people within the then dominant Catholic Church (not necessarily the church hierarchy, but they were not free of their share of gulit either) decided that, contrary to Jesus asking people to follow him, people MUST follow the way of the church. Granted the absolute origans of the Crusades was to protect those enroute to the Holy Land, but it quickly degraded. France's portion of hte Crusades was particularly bloody. Please also note that these were people in power, both in and out of the Church hierarchy, hiding behind scripture to "weed out sinners" i.e. anyone who didn't believe as they did or even just pissed them off.

I'm curious, where in the Bible does it say this? And how come you somehow "know" this, but other Christians do not? Since when did God suddendly reverse his "No Sin" policy?

Technically, at the point where Paul talks about nothing being truely "unclean" and that the law died with Christ. Now that didn't mean that people are not to sin, but it did remove the whole book of leviticus and other written law as the basis of sin. The Law was then written on the hearts of man and thus while not applicable as a basis of sisn, the written law as were still a viable basis of conduct. Otherwise, you my friend, especially as a Catholic would still be bound by every law of the Old Testament including the standards of Kosher.

And I have another question for you "enlightened" Christian. I am a Roman Catholic and proud of it, does that mean, according to your "knowledge", that I am no longer saved? Funny, I could have sworn that in the Bible Jesus started the Catholic Church, and you wouldn't have you Bible if it wasn't for the Catholic Church, because it was the original Catholics who put it all together. But I'm sure you already knew that and have said your thanks to the Church.

Christ saves you and no one else can (by the Christian viewpoint). While the Catholic Church may excommunicate me from their membership they cannot excommunicate me from Heaven (dispite what some of them believe). Now whether or not someone else believes that you are saved....why do you even care?

Christ did NOT start any church. He came to save mankind and that was that. It was the apostles who started the church and no that is not the same thing. Even then they didn't start the Catholic Church. The word catholic means "universal" but your particular denomination has never been universal nor will it ever be. Dominant maybe, but never universal. It was simply the church and when others started appearing they changed the adjative to a proper noun.

In regards to the Bible, it is most likely that had it not been for the original Cathloics it would be bigger. The fact that Christianity is so large today indicates that it has a message that reaches a large number of people. Thus eventually all of the writtings of that day would be complied. The Catholic Church only selected a small few books to be included in the Bible(alwasy remember that the Bible is not a book but an anthology of books) of the vast number that was available at that time (but alas no longer).


Also, the Jews were God's chosen people in the Old Testament, correct? Ok, so does that mean that since they all didn't drop everything and follow Jesus, that they are not saved to? God just up and abandonded them? Hmph, some loving God that is if he did that.

That is exactly what the doctrine of the Catholic Church says. If you don't believe in Christ as the Savior then you are not saved. It also claims that you are not saved if you are homosexual, a prostitute, or a whole slew of other conditions(belief of individual members of the Catholic Church may vary).

And who are you to decide if someone is saved or not? Isn't that up to God to decide? Or did he offer you a job as a security guard at the Pearly Gates too, while he was giveing you these other "revalations"? Go peddle your nonsense somewhere else
You don’t have to follow any of the Ten Commandments, Jesus will forgive you for breaking them. However, someone who is truly born again will strive to adhere to all of them.

Nothing in this phrase that you quoted indicates anything to say that Undelia is determining who is saved and who isn't. For that I refer you to the Catholic Church and also to any Fundamentalist Christian group.

Wow, the stupidity of Protestants never ceases to amaze me. You "don't have to follow any of the Ten Commandments, Jesuse will forgive you for breaking them", eh? Amazing, that you have discovered something which no other Christians have known for 2000 years. All those silly people who thought that in order for them to follow Jesuse and go to heaven they would have to follow God's Commandments.
Um... NAS rebels... you're arguing against mainstream Christian theology, even as stated by the Roman Catholic Church. Check your doctrine. Christianity asserts that "ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD" and that we are saved through Jesus Grace - his atoning death and ressurection on the cross - NOT through our failed attempts at keeping Gods commandments. Christianity is not a WORKS FAITH. And that includes the faith of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Pentecostalism and Protestantism.

But don't take my word for it. Go check out the Nicene creed and other statements of faith from your church.


No wonder the Crusades happened, those people were just excersizeing their new freedom to kil people, right? I'm curious, where in the Bible does it say this?

All through the new testament. To many times to quote. It's the wntire message of all the books put together. That is the "good news" of the Gospel.

Try these:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

=====

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

======

2 Timothy 1:8-10
So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

=============

I could go on and on. It's the central assertion of the entire New testament.


And how come you somehow "know" this, but other Christians do not? As said, through the Bible. And every mainline denomination asserts it in their statements of faith.

Ones that DO belief following the law leads to salvation (rather than Jesus sacrifice) are considered by the mainliners to be WORKS based cults or sects, such as Jehovahs Witnesses, or Mormons.


Since when did God suddendly reverse his "No Sin" policy? 2000 odd years ago, when Jesus took the penalty of sin, was crucified, and rose again.

Romans 8:1-2
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.



And I have another question for you "enlightened" Christian. I am a Roman Catholic and proud of it, does that mean, according to your "knowledge", that I am no longer saved?
No.


Funny, I could have sworn that in the Bible Jesus started the Catholic Church, and you wouldn't have you Bible if it wasn't for the Catholic Church, because it was the original Catholics who put it all together.
Well, considering that the Bible was written before the schism, the Orthodox Church has as much a claim to that as Catholicism. Actually, considering the Orthodox Church's "territory" after the schism included Jerusalem, Antioch and the homes of the New Testaments writers, it could be said that the ORTHODOX CHURCH gave us the New Testament, and we wouldn;t have it were it not for them.

The Old testament is of course the Jewish Torah, histories and works of the prophets.

And Jesus didn't start the Orthodox or Catholic Church. Jesus lived, died, ressurected and ascended as a Jew. "Christians" was a descriptive term applied to the Jews who followed Jesus a number of years after he left.

The formation of an organised church occured after the day of Pentecost at least. Originally only meeting in homes without rites.


But I'm sure you already knew that and have said your thanks to the Church. Also, the Jews were God's chosen people in the Old Testament, correct? Ok, so does that mean that since they all didn't drop everything and follow Jesus, that they are not saved to? That's between them and God. Some have interpreted this passage to mean that all Jews ARE saved:

Romans 11:25-32
All Israel Will Be Saved

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

========


God just up and abandonded them? Hmph, some loving God that is if he did that. And who are you to decide if someone is saved or not? Isn't that up to God to decide? Or did he offer you a job as a security guard at the Pearly Gates too, while he was giveing you these other "revalations"? Go peddle your nonsense somewhere else

Any persons salvation is between them and God. It is not up to us to judge another (lest we be judged) but we can and do have assurance of our OWN salvation through Jesus. I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.

Alright, well I guess I should rephrase,
What values do you have that coorelate with the Ten Commandments?

Just the obvious 5 - honor your parents (insomuch as they are worthy of it - not all parents are), and don't lie, cheat, steal or kill. But I'll worship other gods, take the name of the Judeo-Christian god in vain, make graven images, work on Saturdays (or on anyone else's sabbath day) or covet my neighbor's ass if I want to and who thinks they can stop me? :D

<snip>
Any persons salvation is between them and God. It is not up to us to judge another (lest we be judged) but we can and do have assurance of our OWN salvation through Jesus. I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.
YAAAAAAAY!!! Bible quotes!!! or something like that. What exactly are you being saved from? :confused: If you're being saved from Hell, how do you know it even exists? It was just made up so us mortals could deal with dying easier because it was frightening to those ancient people.

YAAAAAAAY!!! Bible quotes!!! or something like that. What exactly are you being saved from? :confused: If you're being saved from Hell, how do you know it even exists? It was just made up so us mortals could deal with dying easier because it was frightening to those ancient people.
Oh, I don't even believe in hell wiseguy. Yep I'm a bible reading mainstream christian, and I don't find the bible conclusive as to an eternal place of suffering for those who reject God.

I believe that Jesus saves me from DEATH - eternal death. That he offers me eternal life. I have no idea what happens to those who reject that. As I said, that's between them and God. I follow Jesus out of a proactive and loving response to the love that he shows and has shown me.

In many ways I am being saved from myself. From my own mistakes. From my own weaknesses. I am being saved from addictions. I see countless addicts come into my church and get freed from alcoholism for starters.

The effects of following Jesus work in THIS life, as well as giving an assurance of an afterlife. That's where we get faith for the afterlife from. We see that God is faithful every day, in the here and now, and so that stretches our faith to include tomorrow and tomorrow after that, and eternity.

Faith is like building blocks.

Like trust.

Do you trust someone with your life whom you've just met? Or does that trust build up over years?

bumping for NAS

Dammit people, it's Don't murder, not Don't kill.

I voted "God is #1", or so you worded it. Once you place God first, everything else will follow suit. :)

ALL of them.

bumping for NAS
I'm not sure he'll answer...

Dammit people, it's Don't murder, not Don't kill.
What? What kind of logic is that?

If one should place God at the beginning of all things and endeavors of life then the rest will fall into place. However, Jesus came not to destroy the law but to fullfill the Law of the Ten Commandmants. The commandments were a type and a foreshadow of what was to come, and were encompassed in his life. God the father knew as well as his son that mortal man in and of himself is COMPLETELY AND TOTALY incapable of fallowing the laws of the commandments as God revealed them. However there was and is an exception to this...Jesus, he unlike us was not born under the penalty of sin set in motion by the actions of Adam. Why? He was born WITH OUT sin and the accompanying penalty of death, ie. the virgin birth and his being THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of GOD. Jesus did not have to die on the cross, but out of obedience to HIS (and our) father, and because he knew the price that he was about to pay (for all of us) he willingly went to the cross. Imagine for a minute Jesus as just a plain old every day guy (women transpose here). He slept, he ate, he laughed, he cried...in short he was us. He shared as a mortal man all the daily things that occur in our life... ups and downs and so forth. Move ahead now to his ministery. Jesus had 12 very dear, very personal friends with which he shared his daily life with. His friends knew him intimately much as our friends know us. Picture the upper room and all of them seated around a setting of food sharing a meal of great significance to their culture. They are physically close, conversing, praying, laughing, daydreaming and sharing stories. Jesus knows what he must do and his heart is VERY heavy. He looks to HIS FRIENDS...takes a cup filled with wine, looks to his friends, with feelings we can identify with, he says to them, "drink this and remember me". I know how I have felt when I have had to say goodbye to loved ones and dear friends that i knew I would never see again, I hurt with the joy and sadness of love and a longing to cling to the bond that we shared. I think Jesus experienced that when he said to his friends...as a man, don't forget me. With all of my weaknesses and imperfections i want to be like Jesus, a man that people still write about, talk about and talk to, even after 2000 years. I hope some love came through in this post, and I hope it touches someone.
Peace,
Mike

ALL of them.
But...but...there are so many of them! You cannot possibly expect me to remember all ten?
[/sarcasm]

I do think that there is a reason all ten commandments are in the Bible. Obviously things change over time, but with a little interpretative adjustment, I still think all of them should be followed. It just wouldn't make sense otherwise. You don't get to choose your 'favourite' ones and just ignore the others.

Either you believe in this religion, follow the commandments and have God save you in the end (possibly), or you don't.

Those aren't the Catholic Ten Commandments, so I won't bother voting on them. The decalogue and Mosaic Law are obsolete anyway.

These commandments summarize the Ten Commandments, and if I'm not mistaken the Catholic and Protestant versions have no different meaning, just different wording:

And one of them, a doctor of the law, asked him, tempting him:
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Jesus said to him: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets."
and

"As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love: as I also have kept my Father's commandments and do abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be filled. This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you."

Another note: I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that there were vageries about what day the Sabbath was on. I thought it was specified in the OT for Saturday, and changed to Sunday for convenience. The bottom line is, none of you properly do it unless you sit at home doing nothing on that day. :D

Caveat: Jesus freaks: please, please, please. Just stick to the damn topic. It's a concept so simple, even you guys are capable of doing it. It says OT, so keep it OT. Besides, we all know the loopholes people can use to not have to follow some of these, so save it.

Caveat: Jesus freaks: please, please, please. Just stick to the damn topic. It's a concept so simple, even you guys are capable of doing it.

Way to flame.

If you want us "Jesus freaks" to keep it OT, then that wouldn't make us Jesus freaks, that would make us Moses freaks.

Go ask the Jews.

What? What kind of logic is that?

It's not a matter or logic, it's a matter of translation. The wording is actually, "thou shalt not murder" not "thou shalt not kill" implying that war is acceptable so long as it does not violate any other commandments. Also, it seperates humans from animals since murder is taken to be open the killing of a human while kill including humans, other animals, plants, anything alive, many of which are clearly acceptable since they are required for survival. And that brings me to my final point, the most important commandment is "thou shalt not die by inaction or by adherance to any other commandment." People are asked to fast at different times during the year and to do many other things which could endanger their health. If a person is not able to follow these commandments for health reasons they are fully excused because they are following the most important commandment, self-preservation.

-snip-
I'm not a specialist in Greek, or in Ancient Hebrew. And I dare say that the chances are you aren't either.
Translations are a tricky business that few people have the guts and the brains to get into.
Knowing Ancient Israel, it is possible that they had plenty of conditions on when to kill and when not to, but it is even more likely that they had a completely different "Bible" anyways.
In the Christian context, I can't imagine Jesus approving the killing of anyone, be it in war, or if they have done a crime, or in any other case (other than out of mercy I guess...)

But I'm not a theologian, nor do I want to get involved. Religion to me is about as believable as astrology, but I respect it if others choose to view it differently.
I just thought I heard a swipe directed at a bible-justification of the death penalty...

All of them!

All of them!

I assume you mean that you personally should follow all of them. I hope you're not saying that everyone should follow all of them - because not everyone is Christian or Jewish, and the first four commandments apply only to Christians or Jews who believe in and worship the god of Abraham. Just checking...

I assume you mean that you personally should follow all of them. I hope you're not saying that everyone should follow all of them - because not everyone is Christian or Jewish, and the first four commandments apply only to Christians or Jews who believe in and worship the god of Abraham. Just checking...

First three actually, these aren't the Ten Commandments, obviously from their wording, but they aren't even based off the Ten Commandments.

I don't think these are the Catholic or Protestant Ten Commandments, actually.

I'm not sure he'll answer...
Why not?

Those aren't the Catholic Ten Commandments, so I won't bother voting on them. The decalogue and Mosaic Law are obsolete anyway.

These commandments summarize the Ten Commandments, and if I'm not mistaken the Catholic and Protestant versions have no different meaning, just different wording:


and

Now, why would you say all that? Roman Catholics, Protestants and ORTHODOX (you left out the other branch, there were two huge Christian Churches PRIOR to Luthers protest) all use the same Bible! (since that's where we get the ten commandments from!!!)

Translations may vary, but there's no "Catholic Bible" and a seperate "Protestant Bible".

First three actually, these aren't the Ten Commandments, obviously from their wording, but they aren't even based off the Ten Commandments.

I don't think these are the Catholic or Protestant Ten Commandments, actually.

It's called "paraphrasing."

I'm curious as to which of the Ten Commandments people think must be followed.

.

All of them though some people think that Sabbath is Sunday, when in fact it is Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown. Look up Sunday and Sabbath in most dictionaries or even look up the Sabbath in the Catholic Cathacism to see that my points on this are correct.

James 2.

We are saved by God's grace, through faith, though faith without works is dead

All of them though some people think that Sabbath is Sunday, when in fact it is Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown. Look up Sunday and Sabbath in most dictionaries or even look up the Sabbath in the Catholic Cathacism to see that my points on this are correct.

James 2.

We are saved by God's grace, through faith, though faith without works is dead

It is true to say, that the Christian Sabbath has become sunday, whilst the Jewish SHABBAT has remained on saturday.

There are Christians who keep a saturday sabbath, such as the Seventh Day Adventists for example.

Use of the hebrew word SHABBAT ensures delineation.

Caveat: Jesus freaks: please, please, please. Just stick to the damn topic. It's a concept so simple, even you guys are capable of doing it. It says OT, so keep it OT. Besides, we all know the loopholes people can use to not have to follow some of these, so save it.

This is an offtopic flame. Seeing as you deem this such a simple topic to stick to, why did you veer off it? You criticise yourself fool.

Now, why would you say all that? Roman Catholics, Protestants and ORTHODOX (you left out the other branch, there were two huge Christian Churches PRIOR to Luthers protest) all use the same Bible! (since that's where we get the ten commandments from!!!)

Translations may vary, but there's no "Catholic Bible" and a seperate "Protestant Bible".

They're not totally different, but there are notable differences between Catholic and Protestant Bibles. Which is why, for example, Catholics will never, never use the King James version. Because it was translated in a certain way to defend Protestant doctrines.

I assume you mean that you personally should follow all of them. I hope you're not saying that everyone should follow all of them - because not everyone is Christian or Jewish, and the first four commandments apply only to Christians or Jews who believe in and worship the god of Abraham. Just checking...

I say that everyone should follow all of them. Not just me, but everyone. Of course, that won't happen in my lifetime. But one can hope.

I wonder how many people actually follow the laws they say should be followed.

I wonder if those 49 people have never ever lied about another person.

I wonder if those 49 people have never ripped a cd, taped something of TV, downloaded something illegally or stolen anything else.

I wonder if those 25 people have never criticised or been rude to their parents.

I wonder if those 22 people have never said "Oh God."

I wonder if those 91 people are against war, wouldn't kill in self-defence, wouldn't kill if a loved one was raped/murdered and generally would not kill or advocate killing in any situation at all.

And so on.

I wonder how many people actually follow the laws they say should be followed.

I wonder if those 49 people have never ever lied about another person.

I wonder if those 49 people have never ripped a cd, taped something of TV, downloaded something illegally or stolen anything else.

I wonder if those 25 people have never criticised or been rude to their parents.

I wonder if those 22 people have never said "Oh God."

I wonder if those 91 people are against war, wouldn't kill in self-defence, wouldn't kill if a loved one was raped/murdered and generally would not kill or advocate killing in any situation at all.

And so on.

So you're saying that people aren't perfect. What news! :rolleyes:

So you're saying that people aren't perfect. What news! :rolleyes:

That's kinda my point....

Bit more explanation: People aren't perfect. Everyone commits some of these sins. But it's slightly hypocritical to then say that these commandments must be followed when you don't yourself. I think they're unrealistic and I don't believe in absolutes and I'm fully open to admitting my "sins" and flaws. But at least I'm not being hypocritical in my imperfection.

That's kinda my point....

Okay, so people aren't perfect, and are often hypocritical. Is that any reason to discard these laws? To discard any laws that make sense, yet are sometimes broken?

Okay, so people aren't perfect, and are often hypocritical. Is that any reason to discard these laws? To discard any laws that make sense, yet are sometimes broken?

When did I ever say they should be discarded?

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

- Mark 12:28-31

They're not totally different, but there are notable differences between Catholic and Protestant Bibles. Which is why, for example, Catholics will never, never use the King James version. Because it was translated in a certain way to defend Protestant doctrines.
That's absolute rubbish. Look, I'm a protestant and I never use the King James Bible. The Roman Church was against any translations for centuries. Luther took the bold step of translating the bible into German. King James endorsed a translation into English. There are more accurate translations available now though. The NIV is one, although it Anglicises much of the grammar, whereas something like the New American Standard doesn't to the same degree.

Some Protestant Churches like my fathers - the Anglican Church of Sydney, requires it's ministers to learn Koine Greek and Hebrew so they can preach from the original languages in any case.

You're perhaps confusing things with the JEHOVAHS WITNESSES who DO have their own translation that was indeed done to defend it's unique theology. Unlike any and every other translation, we miraculously "discover" Jesus is A god, not THE God of creation. ;)

I wonder how many people actually follow the laws they say should be followed.

I wonder if those 49 people have never ever lied about another person.

I wonder if those 49 people have never ripped a cd, taped something of TV, downloaded something illegally or stolen anything else.

I wonder if those 25 people have never criticised or been rude to their parents.

I wonder if those 22 people have never said "Oh God."

I wonder if those 91 people are against war, wouldn't kill in self-defence, wouldn't kill if a loved one was raped/murdered and generally would not kill or advocate killing in any situation at all.

And so on.
That's why knowing and being forgiven by Jesus is a good thing.

That's why knowing and being forgiven by Jesus is a good thing.

I agree. The commandments are a goal we should strive for. But Jesus Himself said that the goal was unattainable for mere mortals.

<proseletyze> It is only through Christ's death on the cross that we can hope to be viewed as perfect by God. </proseletyze>

I've committed a lot of sin, more than I wish to admit to, but Jesus paid the price.

That's kinda my point....

Bit more explanation: People aren't perfect. Everyone commits some of these sins. But it's slightly hypocritical to then say that these commandments must be followed when you don't yourself. I think they're unrealistic and I don't believe in absolutes and I'm fully open to admitting my "sins" and flaws. But at least I'm not being hypocritical in my imperfection.

Hypocritical? Goodness no. It's not hypocritical to say that we strive to follow them and fail. It is, however, hypocritical to say that you do follow them (as in without fail) and fail.

Of course people aren't perfect. God knows this as well. He knew he set the bar high--very high--and that we would eventually come to realize that we as humans could not remain perfect with his standards. It was to humble us, making us realize that we need Him to live a perfect, sinless life. Even then, with God's help, we fall from time to time. That's not to say He fails. We still have the choice of accepting His guidance, and, sometimes, we slip. We as Christians, however, are just glad that He promised us that He'd catch us when we fall. :)

*cookie to Glitziness*

All must be followed. but being the flawed and imperfect people that we are, there is a great program for those who make those stumbles.... It's called asking for forgiveness. asking God to forgive you of your sins and failures, asking the person you wronged for forgiveness, and striving to not to repeat the process... and if you do, well, the forgiveness program doesn't really have a limited use anyway...

This is an offtopic flame. Seeing as you deem this such a simple topic to stick to, why did you veer off it? You criticise yourself fool.

This is my topic. I didn't want a bunch of people spouting religious crap, especially Christian or Muslim things that don't pertain to the texts at hand. I don't care what your mythology says about using Jesus' death to pick and choose amongst the 613 commandments of the OT, and I don't care about 603 of them. This topic was made about the OT Ten Commandments, and centered around the concepts of morality. If you want someone to preach to, go to another thread. Otherwise, continue discussing why or why not these commandments are important, given the evidence available. I repeat, I didn't want, nor will tolerate, people going off topic to ramble about "died for this" or "loves you" that or "pray for" this or "forgives you" that. The fact that some of these commandments were overlooked and nixed for advertising purposes is irrelevant, and, ergo superfluous. In fact, a fair number of Christians, do observe all of these.
Si, estoy enfuego, pero puedo pensar.

This is my topic. I didn't want a bunch of people spouting religious crap, especially Christian or Muslim things that don't pertain to the texts at hand. I don't care what your mythology says about using Jesus' death to pick and choose amongst the 613 commandments of the OT, and I don't care about 603 of them. This topic was made about the OT Ten Commandments, and centered around the concepts of morality. If you want someone to preach to, go to another thread. Otherwise, continue discussing why or why not these commandments are important, given the evidence available. I repeat, I didn't want, nor will tolerate, people going off topic to ramble about "died for this" or "loves you" that or "pray for" this or "forgives you" that. The fact that some of these commandments were overlooked and nixed for advertising purposes is irrelevant, and, ergo superfluous. In fact, a fair number of Christians, do observe all of these.
Si, estoy enfuego, pero puedo pensar.

Sorry if I have sidetracked from the original intent of this thread, Saipea. If you want, I'll go into detail about them, particularly from my interpretation of the OT and the Ten Commandments:

The incident on Mount Sinai (i.e., the forging of the Ten Commandments from God to Moses) was the forging of a new covenant with the Hebrews. There first was the unconditional covenant God made with Abraham, of which God promised land, decendants, protection, and blessings from other nations. In other words, Abraham didn't have to do a single darn thing to get what God promised to provide--all the work went to the Lord. The new covenant made with Moses became a conditional one; one where, in order to live in holiness, the Hebrews needed to serve life in God's presence (i.e. without sin), not to mention bless other nations (see the turnaround?).

Y'see, you have to understand that the Hebrew people, before they became the Hebrews (aka before Abram/Abraham), were just like everyone else in the Mesopotamian culture. It was a magical, animistic culture which offered sacrifice to multiple gods. Spirits controlled all aspects of life. Blood and sex were considered potent ways of tapping divine power for personal benefits. In detail, drinking and sprinkling blood and semen upon certain objects were give power over them--be it crops, money, or even each other (o.O). Let's not leave out the ritual sex, as that was used to entice the gods to act on one's behalf.

See now what God had to work with?

Since holiness is now an integral part of God's covenant with his people, the laws (i.e. Ten Commandments, laws of Leviticus, Deuteronomy, & Numbers) teach that, in faithfulness to his covenant promises, the Lord disciplines his people so that they will not only experience holiness and blessedness but also help them be a blessing to others. They had to be purged of their old, wicked ways in order to live in a godly fashion. Sometimes, unfortunately, this required stict punishment. However, it seemed that was the only way the Hebrews could have made such a drastic transition from Mesopotamian culture (and let's not forget the Egyptian influences they gathered in their time of bondage there) to the godly culture He wanted for them.

This is my topic. I didn't want a bunch of people spouting religious crap, especially Christian or Muslim things that don't pertain to the texts at hand. I don't care what your mythology says about using Jesus' death to pick and choose amongst the 613 commandments of the OT, and I don't care about 603 of them. This topic was made about the OT Ten Commandments, and centered around the concepts of morality. If you want someone to preach to, go to another thread. Otherwise, continue discussing why or why not these commandments are important, given the evidence available. I repeat, I didn't want, nor will tolerate, people going off topic to ramble about "died for this" or "loves you" that or "pray for" this or "forgives you" that. The fact that some of these commandments were overlooked and nixed for advertising purposes is irrelevant, and, ergo superfluous. In fact, a fair number of Christians, do observe all of these.
Si, estoy enfuego, pero puedo pensar.

Hey screw you, conversation Nazi? Who are you to dictate which way conversation goes? Censorist!

You asked a question about the bibles ten commandments and said "I'm curious as to which of the Ten Commandments people think must be followed."

NATURALLY (yeah it's REALLY simple noodlebrain) people who follow Jesus will answer WHY they don't HAVE to follow any commandments. It has nothing to do with loopholes.

Boy people like you really piss me off. Narrowminded, bigoted, flamebaiting, conversationally challenged moron.

And no there's no commandment against calling a fool for what they are.

Last time I talk to you boyo. Happy wallowing in your own reality.

I voted for "thou shalt not kill" however, ALL of them should be followed.

Do you realize how flawed the ten commandments are? For example, "Thou shalt not kill": So, if you're in a life threatening situation, and your only choice is to either shoot someone or be killed, you should just lie there and be killed? Or, "Thou shalt not steal.": So, if your family is starving, you got fired and can't get a job, you don't steal to save the life of your family?

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.

And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

- Mark 12:28-31

Oh, is that so? Imagine if we were built on Judaic (Catholic, Jewish, Protestant etc.) principals.... Imagine how much censorship that would entail... Saying "OH MY GOD," would have to be beeped out, haahahahahaha!!!!!

Also, what if you hate yourself? Should you hate your neighbor too? And if you do love yourself, what if (s)he told you (s)he is going to eat you? Do you still have to love him/her?

You don’t have to follow any of the Ten Commandments, Jesus will forgive you for breaking them. However, someone who is truly born again will strive to adhere to all of them.

Edit: The way you phrased some of those is a bit off, but whatever.

That's exactly what I was going to say... but you said it for me :D

See what i like about it is all you sinners can sin and then repent on the day of Judgment and may get in.

If i do it in Gods name it must be ok.
I would never do anything that god didnt want and yes i may or may not talk to the big guy. ;)

See what i like about it is all you sinners can sin and then repent on the day of Judgment and may get in.

If i do it in Gods name it must be ok.
I would never do anything that god didnt want and yes i may or may not talk to the big guy. ;)

lol, well have you ever lied in your life...? It is a sin Harlesburg... :rolleyes:

Do you realize how flawed the ten commandments are? For example, "Thou shalt not kill": So, if you're in a life threatening situation, and your only choice is to either shoot someone or be killed, you should just lie there and be killed? Or, "Thou shalt not steal.": So, if your family is starving, you got fired and can't get a job, you don't steal to save the life of your family?

Ah, but it say's do not MURDER, not do not kill.

And, yes it says do not steal, but Jewish society was also commanded by God to take care of those without food. Farmers were told not to harvest to the edges of their fields so that the poor could gather some food from themselves.

See, God was actually a socialist. ;) He created a welfare state with his many commandments. It's just the humans that stuffed it up.

The ten commandments are a very good recipe for building a society. If everyone is stealing from each other there's no trust. If they're all sleeping with each others wives, there'd be inbreeding galore and who would know who's brother is who's sister? Homeosexuality diluted the available gene pool in days when survival was hard.

When one looks at the commandments as a benefit for a human society trying to form in the middle of a desert, without modern medicine or science, they make really good sense.


Oh, is that so? Imagine if we were built on Judaic (Catholic, Jewish, Protestant etc.) principals.... Imagine how much censorship that would entail... Saying "OH MY GOD," would have to be beeped out, haahahahahaha!!!!!
Ah.... we did build societies on Judeo-Christian principles... they're the Judeo-Christian cultures of the west.

Besides, "oh my God" is fine if you're really praying "oh my God" when that nasty thing happens. It's taking his name in VAIN which is not kosher. ;)


Also, what if you hate yourself? Should you hate your neighbor too? And if you do love yourself, what if (s)he told you (s)he is going to eat you? Do you still have to love him/her?

You can't love someone unless you DO love yourself. Again, a very good recipe for human relationships. It's also fundamental relationship philosophy. "Put yourself in the other persons shoes." Don't knock it. The ideas WORK.

I find it more than slightly worrying that more posters consider God to be #1 than consider that their parents deserve to be honoured and respected.

I am not digging at those that believe in God, but come on folks, you would not be here to honour God if it were not for your parents. They may be complete bastards, but they still deserve honouring even if it is just for not aborting you.

I find it more than slightly worrying that more posters consider God to be #1 than consider that their parents deserve to be honoured and respected.

I am not digging at those that believe in God, but come on folks, you would not be here to honour God if it were not for your parents. They may be complete bastards, but they still deserve honouring even if it is just for not aborting you.
If you're honoring God, you do honor your parents.

In any case, of course God deserves more than your parents. He is the creator and sustainer of your life. And your parents will let you down. God has never let me down. By putting God first, I'm able to forgive my parents. No human is perfect.

In any case, it's another example, of recipes for relational functionality. Take two people. If each one is putting themself first, then there is no relationship. Both are selfish. If both put the other person first, then there is co-dependance. The expectations and demands are increased to un unsustainable level.

I've lived in a codependant relationship. It's a nightmare of unmeetable expectations continually being broken.

However, by putting God first, and then the other person, a partners entire self worth, or being is not invested in a flawed human. By putting the person second, ahead of you, the relationship can function smoothly, because both people are putting their partners needs ahead of their own.

I would consider the one which outlaws drawing pictures of fish the most important. However I believe the catholics do not adhere to this one, and have their own version which outlaws verbal abuse to God when you accidentally jam your finger in the door.

I believe this is the second one, yet I dont see it on the poll.

I would consider the one which outlaws drawing pictures of fish the most important. However I believe the catholics do not adhere to this one, and have their own version which outlaws verbal abuse to God when you accidentally jam your finger in the door.

I believe this is the second one, yet I dont see it on the poll.

Wow, He really doesn't like fish on our cars? I guess it's a good thing that I don't have one then, huh?

I suppose it's even better that I'm adamant against verbal abuse, and would rather cut off the jammed finger than throw slander at Him.

I'm all set. Yay! :)

I find it more than slightly worrying that more posters consider God to be #1 than consider that their parents deserve to be honoured and respected.

I am not digging at those that believe in God, but come on folks, you would not be here to honour God if it were not for your parents. They may be complete bastards, but they still deserve honouring even if it is just for not aborting you.

So you're saying that those who do believe in the Christian God shouldn't place Him first?

It's as Kalawak (and myself) has said. If God is placed first, all other priorities will follow suit. Loving God does not mean to hate your parents. We're instructed to honor and love them, so, by loving God, we obey that instruction. Let's not forget that the commandment to honor our father and mother is the first commandment with a promise to those who follow it.

So, what I'm trying to get at here is by voting for "God is #1" doesn't equate that the parents can go down the crapper. It's a placement of priorities. God first, then family.

If you're honoring God, you do honor your parents.

In any case, of course God deserves more than your parents. He is the creator and sustainer of your life. And your parents will let you down. God has never let me down. By putting God first, I'm able to forgive my parents. No human is perfect.

In any case, it's another example, of recipes for relational functionality. Take two people. If each one is putting themself first, then there is no relationship. Both are selfish. If both put the other person first, then there is co-dependance. The expectations and demands are increased to un unsustainable level.

I've lived in a codependant relationship. It's a nightmare of unmeetable expectations continually being broken.

However, by putting God first, and then the other person, a partners entire self worth, or being is not invested in a flawed human. By putting the person second, ahead of you, the relationship can function smoothly, because both people are putting their partners needs ahead of their own.

The poll is multiple choice. It is not a matter of putting God #1 or honouring your parents, you can do both.

As for the codependant guff, that is the worst justification of being selfish I have ever seen. If you are going to be selfish then do so honestly.

I'm curious as to which of the Ten Commandments people think must be followed.

Note: Unfortunately, there are only 10 poll options. So if you think none should be followed, simply say so.

Caveat: Just stick to the damn topic. It's a concept so simple, even Jesus freaks are capable of doing it. It says OT, so keep it OT. Besides, we all know the loopholes people can use to not have to follow some of these "commandments," so save it.

The Ten Commandments are all to be lived by and followed devoutly. It's not a multiple choice test.

The poll is multiple choice. It is not a matter of putting God #1 or honouring your parents, you can do both.

*blink* What? It is?

...

Didn't know that. I suppose I should have looked at it a bit closer. I was actually upset that I couldn't vote for all of them, and picked the one that brought most promise and would allow me to follow the rest in suit. Shows what I know, then, huh? :p

*cookie to Alien for pointing it out*

Wow, He really doesn't like fish on our cars? I guess it's a good thing that I don't have one then, huh?

I suppose it's even better that I'm adamant against verbal abuse, and would rather cut off the jammed finger than throw slander at Him.

I'm all set. Yay! :)


Um, not so. The smiling face at the end of your post has technically broken this commandment.

Why just the ten? Aren't there more? The Jews seem to think that every law set down is important, and I don't think Jeebus said otherwise.

How about not wearing clothes made of mixed fibres (Leviticus 19:19)? Or stoning rebellious children to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)? Or how about the prohibition on eating shellfish (Leviticus 11:10)? And let's not forget that women who are raped have to marry the rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29).

If we're going to be fundamentalist, let's be consistent at least.

Why just the ten? Aren't there more? The Jews seem to think that every law set down is important, and I don't think Jeebus said otherwise.

How about not wearing clothes made of mixed fibres (Leviticus 19:19)? Or stoning rebellious children to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)? Or how about the prohibition on eating shellfish (Leviticus 11:10)? And let's not forget that women who are raped have to marry the rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29).

If we're going to be fundamentalist, let's be consistent at least.

Well, I believe that these are all lesser crimes than drawing pictures of zebra's, otherwise god would have told Moses about them at the start. However valid they might be.

Um, not so. The smiling face at the end of your post has technically broken this commandment.

Oh... :(

Snap! I did it again! :headbang:

Argh! And again!

I'm just glad that I didn't use the :gundge: icon. That's the unforgivable one. ... Wait...

I voted for them all. But take exception to which specific day the Sabbath is, just like:
The day of rest and celebration was appointed, but nothing specific said about which day. Be it Sunday or Wednesday, so long as you take at least one, you're good to go.Yep. Having a day being less stress-free and calming is a good idea, it's just not always practical to be Saturday. Or Sunday, whichever.

Of course, being as exams have finished now, I've effectively got 7 days of rest. :D

Apart from my job.

ps. Jesus repealed the OT Laws! Many of them can still be followed, as inferences from the Uber-Commandments "Love God with all your Heart, Soul, Mind, Strength" and "Love neighbour like yourself", but the mixed fibres, shellfish etc etc aren't exactly acts of un-love. And so I don't have to follow them, which is good, because roast pork is tasty.

Oh... :(

Snap! I did it again! :headbang:

Argh! And again!

I'm just glad that I didn't use the :gundge: icon. That's the unforgivable one. ... Wait...

hehehe

I voted for them all. But take exception to which specific day the Sabbath is, just like:
Yep. Having a day being less stress-free and calming is a good idea, it's just not always practical to be Saturday. Or Sunday, whichever.

Of course, being as exams have finished now, I've effectively got 7 days of rest. :D

Apart from my job.

ps. Jesus repealed the OT Laws! Many of them can still be followed, as inferences from the Uber-Commandments "Love God with all your Heart, Soul, Mind, Strength" and "Love neighbour like yourself", but the mixed fibres, shellfish etc etc aren't exactly acts of un-love. And so I don't have to follow them, which is good, because roast pork is tasty.

What gives this Jeebus person the right to repeal Gods laws?

What gives this Jeebus person the right to repeal Gods laws?

Well, he is God incarnate 'n' all...

Although I may have to ask for forgiveness from him quite frequently, as I doubt that I could hold a straight face whilst saying "Praise Jeebus!".

EDIT: Woot! 300 posts! Praise Jeebus!... *snerk*

Well, he is God incarnate 'n' all...

And I suppose it was Jeebus that told everyone this? How convenient.
He must be a shellfish addict.

And I suppose it was Jeebus that told everyone this? How convenient.
He must be a shellfish addict.

Well...

They [the Pharisees] all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

Interesting.....

I am the Son of God.

Interesting.....

I am the Son of God.

We are all sons and daughters, yes. But Jesus is the] Son of God. I.e. 1/3 of the whole.

For more of his "I am"s...

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst."

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world."

So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."

"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

My morals correlate with the 10 commandments, but I don't believe that one should just follow rules laid out for them because they were told to by an authority figure...one needs to think and have sufficient reason to act the way they do.

We are all sons and daughters, yes. But Jesus is the] Son of God. I.e. 1/3 of the whole.


I am the Son of God. And I am God also.

ps. Jesus repealed the OT Laws! Many of them can still be followed, as inferences from the Uber-Commandments "Love God with all your Heart, Soul, Mind, Strength" and "Love neighbour like yourself", but the mixed fibres, shellfish etc etc aren't exactly acts of un-love. And so I don't have to follow them, which is good, because roast pork is tasty.

Ah, I see. Jeebus overruled all the OT law. So does that include, say, homosexuality being 'evil'? That ain't in the New Testament. Does that include
all the other commandments apart from the ones he listed himself? Can I kill people, and covet my neighbour's ass?

Oh, hang on! The 10Cs ARE Old Testament Laws! Oops, guess if he overruled the OT, then the 10Cs are irrelevant.

But wait! Doesn't Jeebus say something about not one jot of the law being altered (Matthew 5:17-18), and it being his job to "fulfill" the law not to destroy it (how do you "fulfill" a law?)? If the OT is overruled, hasn't he "destroyed" the law? And didn't he say something about obeying all the laws preached by Moses and the Pharisees (Matthew 23:1-3)? I'm seeing a problem here...

See what I mean by inconsistent? Sort your theology out before you force it on others, okay?

I'm curious as to which of the Ten Commandments people think must be followed.

Note: Unfortunately, there are only 10 poll options. So if you think none should be followed, simply say so.

Caveat: Just stick to the damn topic. It's a concept so simple, even Jesus freaks are capable of doing it. It says OT, so keep it OT. Besides, we all know the loopholes people can use to not have to follow some of these "commandments," so save it.

IMO, they should all be followed.

I say that everyone should follow all of them. Not just me, but everyone. Of course, that won't happen in my lifetime. But one can hope.

So what you are saying is that people who currently worship other gods should violate their own conscience, turn their backs on their own gods and worship yours exclusively? Why should they be expected to do that? I could understand expecting Christians, Jews and Muslims to worship the god of Abraham - but for the rest of us - it's sacrilege!

IMO, they should all be followed.

But I don't worship or even believe in your god - so why should the first 4 commandments supposedly given by your god for his people apply to me at all?

But I don't worship or even believe in your god - so why should the first 4 commandments supposedly given by your god for his people apply to me at all?

He is the God of everything in existance. He doesn't force you to keep His law and neither do I believe I should.

However, the answer to the question asked in the original post is which of the commandments should be kept and given that, all of them should be. Just because you don't believe something to be truth, doesn't mean it isn't. Please note, I also prefaced my comment with IMO (in my opinion), which is an acknowledgement that there are other opinions and that I don't have the right to forcably impose mine on others...

Ah, I see. Jeebus overruled all the OT law. So does that include, say, homosexuality being 'evil'? That ain't in the New Testament.Look again, it gets a few mentions.Can I kill people, and covet my neighbour's ass?That would hardly be much of a display of love for your neighbour.
I tell you the truth, until Heaven and Earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is fulfilled.This particular passage (17-20) has some helpful side-notes in my Bible:
In the OT, there were three categories of Law; Ceremonial, Civil and Moral.
Ceremonial related specifically to Israel's worship, and the purpose was to point forward to the coming of Christ. So, no longer necessary.
Civil is about daily living in Israel. Laws for a fledgling nation spending much of their time wandering the desert. In an attempt to keep the bloodline of Israel, God's chosen race pure, deviant behaviour was often punished quite severely. Obviously (I hope) these aren't relevant anymore. No longer are the Israelis wandering the desert trying to establish themselves. And consider as well that I'm not even Jewish, as aren't lots and lots of Christians. Anyway, the principles behind the laws are the same however, and were demonstrated by Jesus. Such as keeping the body as a temple and stuff.
Moral, such as the 10 Commandments, reveal the true nature of God and still apply.Also note that the Bible verse here says "until its purpose is fulfilled". I'm understanding that to read that each law has served its time, and I do reckon that most of the OT ones have. Because of the huge cultural differences between then to now.

The Great Commandments Jesus said include all the TC. The God-based ones in the first Great Commandment (Love God), the society-based ones in the second (Love everyone else). I use these to live by, and the relevant bits of the OT to define what they refer to. I reckon that it would be very, very difficult to live by all of the OT laws, quite possibly even impossible (if that clause makes any sense).

See what I mean by inconsistent? Sort your theology out before you force it on others, okay?I'm fairly content with my theology. And I'd like to think that there was absolutely no forcing :p

The Ten Commandments are all to be lived by and followed devoutly. It's not a multiple choice test.

*dies laughing*

"you shall have no god before me"
I shall worship whichever god i see fit, i in fact, worship no god because they are all lies and false gods including Jehova

"dont take gods name in vain"
I obey this one because i dont believe a god exists so saying "god damn it" is pointless

"dont do anything on saturdays/sunday"
I go out getting drunk on saturday nights and recover sundays so technically i dont do anything sundays :p

"Honor your parents or else"
Yeah i love my parents so i agree with this one mostly except when they do something which i consider wrong then i will tell them my opinion.

"dont kill(murder)"
partly agree, if the definition is dont murder then i agree, but if its dont kill period, i completely and utterly disagree

"dont cheat on your spouse"
100 percent agree

"dont steal"
Agree

"Dont lie about other people"
Disagree, lying is sometimes neccersary to protect peoples feelings (especially children, small lies like fibs) example: - Of course Santa exists

"dont covet other peoples stuff"
isn't this the same as stealing? if so agree

Oh and as far as the Catholics VS Protestant thing goes, Protestants are far more tolerant to other religions, other ways of life (homosexuality) and are by far nicer people than Catholics i have met. You rarely see protestants sat outside abortion clinics trying to make people feel bad like catholics do.

Catholics are (usually) Arrogant, Obnoxious, Uneducated and intolerant to anything that doesn't agree with them, including other religions.

Look again, it gets a few mentions.That would hardly be much of a display of love for your neighbour.
This particular passage (17-20) has some helpful side-notes in my Bible:
Also note that the Bible verse here says "until its purpose is fulfilled". I'm understanding that to read that each law has served its time, and I do reckon that most of the OT ones have. Because of the huge cultural differences between then to now.


I would like to add that a lot of the Levitical laws appear to have been established for specific medical and nutritional reasons, to help the early Jews flourish as a race. Only God could have known the medical benefits in such an ancient, backwards region, and the only way He could bestow these benefits on them without artificially advancing their scientific knowledge was to codify them in religious laws.

Specifically:
You can't eat the blood of an animal. Blood has little nutritional value, and some of the things in it are bad for you.

Shellfish. All shellfish have a lot of heavy metals that settle to the bottom of the ocean floor. Plus they eat off the bottom, which means fish and human crap.

Venereal diseases/monthly issues of blood. Men and women were not allowed to have sex when any unnatural flow of liquid was occuring. This also helps prevent yeast infections. Sorry if this grosses anyone out.

Pork. Bronze age societies didn't often cook their food very long, as they were afraid of burning it and turning priceless meat to charcoal. Pigsflesh has high concentrations of bacteria which lead to trichynosis. They do, after all, bath in livestock dung. Modern cooking techniques reach temperatures hot enough to kill those bacterium.

And on and on.

P.S. Oh and circumcision, it's hard to advance your culture if your men's dinks rot off.

As for the codependant guff, that is the worst justification of being selfish I have ever seen. If you are going to be selfish then do so honestly.

???? Wow. Way to go. Completely missed the point.

Co-dependency is self-LESS-ness to a destructive fault (if you'd read my post correctly). Not selfishness. The two are the opposite extremes.

As I said (again) if you live for yourself first, a functional relationship is impossible. If you live life totally for the other person first, you're setting yourself up for co-dependence. Relationship addiction.

In any case, I said I'd lived it. Go live it and come back and tell me all about it before "guffawing" at my personal experience.

I would like to add that a lot of the Levitical laws appear to have been established for specific medical and nutritional reasons, to help the early Jews flourish as a race. Only God could have known the medical benefits in such an ancient, backwards region, and the only way He could bestow these benefits on them without artificially advancing their scientific knowledge was to codify them in religious laws.

Specifically:
You can't eat the blood of an animal. Blood has little nutritional value, and some of the things in it are bad for you.

Shellfish. All shellfish have a lot of heavy metals that settle to the bottom of the ocean floor. Plus they eat off the bottom, which means fish and human crap.

Venereal diseases/monthly issues of blood. Men and women were not allowed to have sex when any unnatural flow of liquid was occuring. This also helps prevent yeast infections. Sorry if this grosses anyone out.

Pork. Bronze age societies didn't often cook their food very long, as they were afraid of burning it and turning priceless meat to charcoal. Pigsflesh has high concentrations of bacteria which lead to trichynosis. They do, after all, bath in livestock dung. Modern cooking techniques reach temperatures hot enough to kill those bacterium.

And on and on.

P.S. Oh and circumcision, it's hard to advance your culture if your men's dinks rot off.

Spot on. Well said. The priests were also the doctors.