NationStates Jolt Archive

Most people think automaticly at the Titanic, but Titanic was nothing compared to what hapened with 30.000 death on board of 3 german ships in the winter of 1945. The Guslov, Steuben an Goya took part in the biggest maritime evacuation in history (2 million refugees/soldiers and wounded on the run for the Red Army between end january and early april.). I is a pitty that with the new nitrox diving gas, treasurehunters are steazling from those unkown graves.

http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html

The biggest naval disaster in history might not have yet happened. If the USS Richard Montgomery goes up, that will be the biggest naval disaster in history.

The biggest naval disaster in history might not have yet happened. If the USS Richard Montgomery goes up, that will be the biggest naval disaster in history.

Noop, read:
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/wilhelmgustloff.aspx
The Montgommery will never have 9.000 people on board.
BTW, in real it's above 30.000 in total for those 3 ships.

thanks for the post, its a little bit of ww2 history that i had never heard of. what a feat to evacuate 2 million people and only lose 30,000.

Noop, read:
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/wilhelmgustloff.aspx
The Montgommery will never have 9.000 people on board.
BTW, in real it's above 30.000 in total for those 3 ships.

Aheh. The Montgomery is already underwater. Underneath the Thames. In the middle of London. With enough explosives onboard to cause the world's largest ever non-nuclear explosion if they're ever set off.

Aheh. The Montgomery is already underwater. Underneath the Thames. In the middle of London. With enough explosives onboard to cause the world's largest ever non-nuclear explosion if they're ever set off.

Oops, thought you where speaking about a vessel named towards the ship that sunk in 1944.
http://www.sheppey.free-online.co.uk/history/wrecks/monty.html
So it is not a boat and can't be in the statistics.

thanks for the post, its a little bit of ww2 history that i had never heard of. what a feat to evacuate 2 million people and only lose 30,000.
Thank you.
The story is regularly on N. Geographic. Tonight it was on ARTE, but I am interested in it since a few years. I think that Jason Pipes article about the Wilhelm Gustlov is one of the better on the web. (he runs a WWII forum and site since 10 years).

Oops, thought you where speaking about a vessel named towards the ship that sunk in 1944. So it is not a boat and can't be in the statistics.

...*facepalms* No, it is the one that was sunk in 1944. In London. Sorry, I haven't been clear enough, perhaps. It went down with its full consignment of ammunition, the explosive content of which is slowly decomposing into less and less stable forms. It's thought by some that in 10 years or less even a minor earthquake (parts of England occasionally get Richter 1-3 earthquakes) could set it off.

But anyway, it's probably not strictly a marine disaster anyway, since the hundreds of thousands who died would die on land.

Verry interesting story!!!

But remember, such things can be found everywhere in our Europe, I think hereby for example at the still big stocks of recuperated gas ammo in open air stocks of the Belgian Army in Flanders. While they have the most advanced machine since 10 years to deal with this toxic ammo of WWI , they think that it will need more then 30 years to make those 3 million granades harmless. Almost a century has gone, the Belgian, French and Brits that died in "Flanders Fields where the puppys grow" are not forgotten, the ammo neither :(

BTW, I think that with more than 7000 drowned, the Goya must be even worse the Wilhelm Gustlov. Goya was armed and millitary (the Russian sub had the right to fire, wether there were 1000's of women and children on board), but Gustlov was a marked Hospital ship with a red cross on it (80 by 40 meters), that was a warcrime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goya_%28ship%29

A smaller one, but together with the Indianapolis (that carried the WMD for Japanese citizens in Hiroshima), I think that the USS Leopoldville is the biggest disaster for US troops in WWII.700+ deaths.

http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/resource/xstory.htm

read about the sinking of the steamer "Eastland" in Chicago and the burning of the steamer "General Slocum" off New York... 2 of the worst peacetime disasters ever in total loss of life due to a sinking or shipboard disaster.

but those 3 German liners sunk (ironically about the only major ships the Soviet submarine fleet actually managed to sink during World War II) were simply awful tragedies... even those that got off the ships died in the frigid winter water of the Baltic

My favourite was always the one in that Thomas Dolby song.

What about the biggest non-war time disaster?

I have family (since passed away) that were in that evacuation. Nice to see Non-Germans remembering it too. The sinking of those three ships, particularily the Wilhelm Gustlav was travesty, but the overall success of the evacuation was miracle.One of the most striking details passed on to me from those relatives that were in it is the large number of Russians, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuainians in the evacuation. Anyone who wanted on was allowed to just get in line and wait along with everyone else. Perhaps it was just one the one ship my Great-Uncle and his wife were on, but I've heard others relate similar stories. That part of the family is still close with several Estonian families they met during the evacuation.

... but Gustlov was a marked Hospital ship with a red cross on it (80 by 40 meters), that was a warcrime.
...
She wasn't a marked hospital ship. The Wilhelm Gustloff was painted navy grey.

She wasn't a marked hospital ship. The Wilhelm Gustloff was painted navy grey.

Noop, it was a marked hospitalship, in painted white instead of grey. No excuse for you Russians for this one.

Noop, it was a marked hospitalship, in painted white instead of grey. No excuse for you Russians for this one.

You've been misinformed. Read this:

http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/facts_didyouknow.htm

Contrary to some sources, the Gustloff DID NOT have Red Cross markings when torpedoed by the S-13 submarine commanded by Marinesko. By late 1940, the Gustloff was repainted in typical navy grey when commissioned as a barracks ship in Gotenhafen. Furthermore, anti-aircraft guns were affixed to the deck before sailing (there were those who felt that air attack was far more likely than submarine attack).

...*facepalms* No, it is the one that was sunk in 1944. In London. Sorry, I haven't been clear enough, perhaps. It went down with its full consignment of ammunition, the explosive content of which is slowly decomposing into less and less stable forms. It's thought by some that in 10 years or less even a minor earthquake (parts of England occasionally get Richter 1-3 earthquakes) could set it off.

But anyway, it's probably not strictly a marine disaster anyway, since the hundreds of thousands who died would die on land.

I think you are overstating somewhat. The Montgomery was not sunk in London. It ran aground at Sheerness off Kent which is some distance from London. It is also not the USS Montgomery, it is the SS Montgomery, as it was a Liberty ship, not a US Navy ship.

You've been misinformed. Read this:

http://www.wilhelmgustloff.com/facts_didyouknow.htm

No, you are, but you have the advantage about not knowing much about it, read this:http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html(a better documented site and age then what you brought up)
and specially pay attention to the foto of the Wilhelm Gustlov (white instead of your what you say: Navy Grey), later on the cross came on it. But in fact all this has nothing to do with the fact of beiing, together with Goya and Steuben the biggest disaster. Also one of the only big ships destroyed by the red Navy in WWII.

No, you are, but you have the advantage about not knowing much about it, read this:http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html(a better documented site and age then what you brought up)
and specially pay attention to the foto of the Wilhelm Gustlov (white instead of your what you say: Navy Grey), later on the cross came on it. But in fact all this has nothing to do with the fact of beiing, together with Goya and Steuben the biggest disaster. Also one of the only big ships destroyed by the red Navy in WWII.
What photo are you talking about?

During the late summer and early fall of 1940, the Gustloff was ordered to prepare for operations during the planned Invasion of England, which eventually were cancelled in late summer 1940. Once more, on October 20th, 1940, the Gustloff sailed again to Oslo and took on 414 wounded for transport back to Swinemünde.

Shortly after this trip, the Gustloff was to end its service as a Lazarettschiff when it was directed that it move to Gotenhafen for service as a barracks ship for the U-boot arm of the Kriegsmarine.

So the Wilhelm Gustloff, according to the site of your choice, ceased to be a hospital ship in 1940, didn't she?

What photo are you talking about?

Since you both are talking about the link I posted when I started the thread, I guess you must talk about the photo in my link in wich you see, indeed a photo of 1939 with a white Gustloff on it (1939).It is there you know. Weather that cross was 10,15 or 20 meters, that is not important.

But it was not a red cross ship, so I don't know if a enemy hospital ship can be attacked or not acording the war legislation then.

Since you both are talking about the link I posted when I started the thread, I guess you must talk about the photo in my link in wich you see, indeed a photo of 1939 with a white Gustloff on it (1939).It is there you know. Weather that cross was 10,15 or 20 meters, that is not important.

But it was not a red cross ship, so I don't know if a enemy hospital ship can be attacked or not acording the war legislation then.
It is undisputable that in 1939 the Gustloff was a hospital ship, marked as such. Attacks upon hospital ships were then (and are now) strictly forbidden by international law.

But in 1940 she was converted from a hospital ship to a barrack ship, thus losing her privileged status and becoming a legal military target. Furthermore, in 1945 she had the anti-aircraft guns onboard -- that fact alone is sufficient for discounting a claim that the Gustloff was a hospital ship on 30 January 1945.

What about the biggest non-war time disaster?
Probably the Doña Paz in 1987, although no one knows for sure how many people died in that disaster.

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/ships/html/sh_027900_donapaz.htm

What about the Exxon Valdez, in terms of ecological damage? Theyre still cleaning that up, and bird populations were totally destroyed.

Most people think automaticly at the Titanic, but Titanic was nothing compared to what hapened with 30.000 death on board of 3 german ships in the winter of 1945. The Guslov, Steuben an Goya took part in the biggest maritime evacuation in history (2 million refugees/soldiers and wounded on the run for the Red Army between end january and early april.). I is a pitty that with the new nitrox diving gas, treasurehunters are steazling from those unkown graves.

http://www.feldgrau.com/wilhelmgustloff.html
Yeah ive heard of it ive got a book on Elite Weapons and Units of the 3rd Reich and it tooks about the Uboats and all sorts of stuff but one topic was about obscure SS Divisions and it mentions this event.

Alot of Divisions were reduced to 10% of their original fighting force.
There was also A Catholic SS Division and the Americans were going to hand them over to the Ruskies after the war but the Pope talked them out of it+ the Cold War had started and the US didnt want to play nice. :D

What about Actium or Cannae?

Im sure at least one of them was a Sea battle if not meh.

Mary Rose-Henry VIII ship.

St Louis

French Navy getting carved up in Africa WWII

Trafalgar

Spanish Armada-HELLO!!!!!!

Aheh. The Montgomery is already underwater. Underneath the Thames. In the middle of London. With enough explosives onboard to cause the world's largest ever non-nuclear explosion if they're ever set off.
shush, terrorists have ears.

i would say it would have to be an oil spill with deaths on board rather than just a sinking ship.

I agree, Spanish Armada, he he he! What a brilliant cock-up.
Or how Elizabeth I left all of the sailors who had fought off the Armada on their ships to die. :confused:

Exxon Valdez... no human life lost but alot of people were impacted by it.

:mad: I see none of you brought up 2002 when my 320 dollar remote control boat i had ran into a real speed boat and sunk off the coast of New Jersey..

That is the greatest marine disaster in my book...

No one has mentioned the Cap Arcona affair yet, the British counterpart to the Gustloff and the Steuben.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Cap_Arcona


I've found an article about the Cap Arcona. By the way, the Britons did indeed sink a German hospital ship, the Deutschland, in that attack, although it wasn't properly marked due to the absence of white paint on the ship -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Deutschland_%281923%29 .

Via Ferrata, thanks for the thread and the pleasant surprise that you indeed named the "Wilhelm Gustloff" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KdF_Ship_Wilhelm_Gustloff) and not the "Titanic".

I didn't expect that - but then again, that's probably just me :D

Does anyone know what was the largest warship sunk in WWII? Was it the Japanese aircraft carrier Shinano?

Does anyone know what was the largest warship sunk in WWII? Was it the Japanese aircraft carrier Shinano?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Shinano

It seems likely. The Shinano was the third battleship along with the Yamato and Musashi, but it had a bigger mass, since it was refitted as a Carrier.
I can't think of a bigger one.

The Guslov has already been plundered by the Soviet Union looking for the gold that the Nazi's were supposedly transporting back to Germany. Were they successful? No one knows, but they did use underwater charges to almost destroy what was left of the ship. Most of the midsection is totally collapsed in on itself and it was not from a natural occurence.

The Guslov has already been plundered by the Soviet Union looking for the gold that the Nazi's were supposedly transporting back to Germany. Were they successful? No one knows, but they did use underwater charges to almost destroy what was left of the ship. Most of the midsection is totally collapsed in on itself and it was not from a natural occurence.
If we did search the Gustloff's wreck for something, it was amber, not gold.

If we did search the Gustloff's wreck for something, it was amber, not gold.
Thats exactly what you would say.
*Evil Glare*

Hard to confirm the numbers involved, but what about the Mongol fleets sent against Japan with probably tens of thousands -if not more than a hundred thousand- Mongols and Chinese aboard and never seen again, apparently sunk by typhoon?

It is indeed one of the many examples of the horrors of war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Shinano

It seems likely. The Shinano was the third battleship along with the Yamato and Musashi, but it had a bigger mass, since it was refitted as a Carrier.
I can't think of a bigger one.
I cannot think, too.

The largest Allied warship to sink in WWII was HMS Hood, I guess. Civilian ship... the Empress of Britain? Not so sure.