NationStates Jolt Archive

My question to you the public is should Turkey be allowed to join Europe. And if so what would the financial and political ramafacations be?
Turkey has a large farming community. Farm subsidy reform is vital to boost world trade and to help the developing world out of the cycle of poverty.
But what would France one of the biggest benefactors of this subsidy have to say about that???

My opinion on Turkey joining the EU is a little warped.
The argument goes like this:
Turkey is admitted to the EU.
Turkey is not in Europe.
Turkey does not have a Western European culture.
Thus not being part of Europe is no barrier to joining the EU.
Additionally countries that have Western European cultures should be very welcome to join.
Hence we propose that Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, South Africa and other such europeanised countries be considered for membership if they should so desire. USA could apply but would have to meet the budget defecit requirements, as would the others.

Geographically, Turkey is as much a part of Europe as is Russia.

-snip-
Turkey is not in Europe.

Uhm. Part of it is, in fact, in Europe.
So this makes the whole 'should Turkey join Europe' question rather... questionable, don't you think?

But don't you think the Turkish are to primitive to join europe?

The EU is a peaceful organisation of trading partners, all members rely on eachother and so war between them is very unlikely, this is what the EU was founded on in the 50s when it was the Coal and Steel Pact, the idea was that if France and Germany specialised in different parts of the process in the making of Steel and Fuel Coal then unless they cooperated then it would be impossible for either country to have steel or coal, thus making it in the interests of both parties to cooperate and hence avoid a repeat of WW1 and WW2 and countles Franco-Prussian Wars in the 19th century when France and Germany were at war. It worked, and I see no reason why we cant include other countries just because they arnt strictly part of geographical Europe

But don't you think the Turkish are to primitive to join europe?
...

Are you serious?

European elitism...

You're seriously going to say that a country can't be admitted to the EU because it's "too primitive"? If you knock Turkey out, how can it ever develop? The EU, in my opinion, is an opportunity for Turkey to develop.

Geographically, Turkey is as much a part of Europe as is Russia.
False.

Geographically, it is mostly part of Asia, except for the peninsula.

Anyone in the General European Area should be able to join. Basically Europe, West Asia(Middle East), and northern Africa. And they should also be militarily bound and form one large army.

And they should also be militarily bound and form one large army.


Hell yeah, thats the sort of idea that I like to hear

But Turkey could cause problems suicidal bomber-men could flood europe and drug lords?

But Turkey could cause problems suicidal bomber-men could flood europe and drug lords?
You don't seem to be too bright.

If they admit Turkey, Europe will be invaded...

... BY AN ARMY OF ADORABLE KITTIES.

No, seriously, over in Turkey there have to be at least fifteen cats to a person.

Turkey is not too primitive to join Europe and it is not a country that supports terrorism. In fact, Turkey has been battling terrorism for the past 20 years in Middle East. Turkey does have its rural areas in the east but cities like Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir can be compared to any European city. Like most people think, Turkey is not a desert.

I think Turkey joining EU would benefit both of the parties. Turkey have many industries that could help Europe and the countries poverty problem could definitely be solved by this.

Many of you guys here doesn't seem to know much about Turkey. I suggest you go and learn something.

Turkey is not too primitive to join Europe and it is not a country that supports terrorism. In fact, Turkey has been battling terrorism for the past 20 years in Middle East. Turkey does have its rural areas in the east but cities like Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir can be compared to any European city. Like most people think, Turkey is not a desert.

I think Turkey joining EU would benefit both of the parties. Turkey have many industries that could help Europe and the countries poverty problem could definitely be solved by this.

Many of you guys here doesn't seem to know much about Turkey. I suggest you go and learn something.

My brother has a house in Turkey so you should get your facts wright.

Geographically, Turkey is as much a part of Europe as is Russia.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your logic, Turkey should not be admitted to the EU, since Russia is not a member either.

False.

Geographically, it is mostly part of Asia, except for the peninsula.

Anyone in the General European Area should be able to join. Basically Europe, West Asia(Middle East), and northern Africa. And they should also be militarily bound and form one large army.
Russia is mostly Asia too...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your logic, Turkey should not be admitted to the EU, since Russia is not a member either.
I think what (s)he said was that Turkey was in fact part of Europe.

You don't seem to be too bright.

*Presents the award for Astute Observations*

Anyway, France is getting enough flak from some of the major EU contributors for its farming subsidies (Britain, Sweden, recently elected Germany and others), so that might be an issue, but for the majority of Europe Mr Lutz here is as good a representative as anything on the issue of Turkey. Many fear that Turkey, as a Muslim nation with a very different culture from the rest of the Union (ironically named, possibly?), will bring sweeping changes. And as, at heart, most Europeans are conservative, Change is Bad. Especially when it's those Foreigners who do things differently than we do.

Yeah, I know, I thought this mindset died decades ago too, but that seems to be at least partly the issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your logic, Turkey should not be admitted to the EU, since Russia is not a member either.
What are the reasons for not allowing Russia? Or is Russia allowed, they just choose not to take part?

If Russia is welcomed, then Turkey should be welcomed, if they choose.

If Russia is not allowed for some specific reasons, then if those reasons apply to Turkey, than Turkey should not be allowed.

I simply think that the EU should be fair across the board.

What are the reasons for not allowing Russia? Or is Russia allowed, they just choose not to take part?

If Russia is welcomed, then Turkey should be welcomed, if they choose.

If Russia is not allowed for some specific reasons, then if those reasons apply to Turkey, than Turkey should not be allowed.

I simply think that the EU should be fair across the board.

But do you think that Russia will ever apply for the EU, and if so, will she be admitted?

What are the reasons for not allowing Russia? Or is Russia allowed, they just choose not to take part?

If Russia is welcomed, then Turkey should be welcomed, if they choose.

If Russia is not allowed for some specific reasons, then if those reasons apply to Turkey, than Turkey should not be allowed.

I simply think that the EU should be fair across the board.


Ukraine would join way before Russia, they are closer to us, they have oil good doctors a good education system lots of food. Doe's anyone know what religion makes up the populace is it cathecism?

But do you think that Russia will ever apply for the EU, and if so, will she be admitted?
I don't think Russia really needs the EU. It's competed with the US before...and if it got itself together, could compete with the US again...

Turkey is a different story though. Turkey could use the help of the EU.


Also, forgive me, but, not being European, I don't really know what countries are and aren't in...so let me post a list...

* Austria (1995)
* Belgium (founding member: 1952/58)
* Cyprus (2004)
* Czech Republic (2004)
* Denmark (1973)
* Estonia (2004)
* Finland (1995)
* France (founding member: 1952/58)
* Germany (founding member: 1952/58)
* Greece (1981)
* Hungary (2004)
* Ireland (1973)
* Italy (founding member: 1952/58)
* Latvia (2004)
* Lithuania (2004)
* Luxembourg (founding member: 1952/58)
* Malta (2004)
* The Netherlands (founding member: 1952/58)
* Poland (2004)
* Portugal (1986)
* Slovakia (2004)
* Slovenia (2004)
* Spain (1986)
* Sweden (1995)
* United Kingdom (1973)

Doe's anyone know what religion makes up the populace is it cathecism?

Catholicism is not a major religion in the Ukraine. The primary religion of Ukraine is Eastern Orthodox Christianity. I believe second place belongs to Eastern Rite Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is very similar to Eastern Orthodox but recognizes the Roman Pontiff as its head.

Economy and scientific advancement need not be barriers to a country joining the EU. Just look at places like Latvia, Lithuania and Slovenia. Those places aren't exactly at the pinnacle of civilisation where many factors are concerned, but they still managed to satisfy enough of the criteria for admittance into the EU.

I think the real issue here is concern over closer links with the EU to the Middle East. If accepted, Turkey would be the only country in the EU where Islam is the dominant religion, and that could cause some concern amongst the more xenophobic citizens of the EU, particularly in light of terrorist actions in Madrid and London, allegedly committed by Islamic militants. Though the religion of Islam itself is not the problem here (the vast majority of Muslims are, of course, peaceful) there are a lot of people in Europe who think that making closer ties with Islam would be a very bad idea.

They'd be wrong, of course, because the cultural advantages would outweigh any 'danger' presented by having an Islamic nation in the EU, but who's going to convince them otherwise?

Personally I think that Turkey should join the EU in the future, but right now the unjustified controversy surrounding Islam as a whole would make it a bad idea at this moment in time. If they did join now, I get the feeling that they'd hardly be welcomed with open arms by the rest of Europe. Definitely not the ideal start for a country that would have just joined the EU.

Catholicism is not a major religion in the Ukraine. The primary religion of Ukraine is Eastern Orthodox Christianity. I believe second place belongs to Eastern Rite Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, which is very similar to Eastern Orthodox but recognizes the Roman Pontiff as its head.

Thats good I'd rather them over here instead of all the muslims we would have to build lots of mosques, because they would flood over here in their millions.

Anyone feel like explaining what the criteria for joining the EU is?

I wouldn't mind Turkey in EU. Israel would be a nifty addition too. Both would of cause need some reforms, but if they can reach the demands I would mind them or any other country.

Thats good I'd rather them over here instead of all the muslims we would have to build lots of mosques, because they would flood over here in their millions.
You do realize that the Muslim culture has been around Europe for quite a while now, right?

Thats good I'd rather them over here instead of all the muslims we would have to build lots of mosques, because they would flood over here in their millions.
Why do you think that's true? ...seriously...why would millions of Turkish citizens flood over to the rest of Europe, simply because Turkey is part of the EU?

Are you moving any where because you're part of the EU?

You do realize that the Muslim culture has been around Europe for quite a while now, right?

Yes I know all about spain and italy, but the human rights that Turkey show towards the Kurds is less than good.


a survey was done over there and over 25% of the populace said they would like to move. 25% of what 70 million is a lot of people.

Yes I know all about spain and italy, but the human rights that Turkey show towards the Kurds is less than good.
so...that's why they would 'flood' the EU and you would have to build mosques?

Anyone feel like explaining what the criteria for joining the EU is?

The Copenhagen criteria 1993

Must have a good human rights record and protect minorities: Turkey still some way to go on the Kurds, Hungary improve record with Roma people

Must agree to adopt the aquis communautaire (all previous EU treaties and legislation) in its entirety with no opt outs. Therefore will have to join the Euro when they meet the entry criteria of the Euro, can't opt out unlike UK, Denmark and Sweden. Thus must adopt freedom of trade, health and safety regulations, minimum environmental standards etc

Must be fundamentally democratic with free and fair universal elections, have the rule of law and have a functioning market economy i.e. reform after collapse of Communism

Must have economic stability with low or non excessive levels of unemployment, inflation and public debt

Must commit to a broad common foreign policy

Must remove subsidies and preferable status for native industries i.e. introduce market reforms in Hungary etc after collapse of Communism to create healthy private sector

Yes I know all about spain and italy, but the human rights that Turkey show towards the Kurds is less than good.
Why do people always say that? If Turkey joined EU it wouldn't be the Turkey you see now. If they modified the country to meed the criteria it would be a much different country.

-snip-
Thanks.

does membership in the EU allow your citizens the right to move anywhere they like within the EU without visa or other restrictions?

does membership in the EU allow your citizens the right to move anywhere they like within the EU without visa or other restrictions?

Yes and they would bring all their drugs and guns over here and bomber-men.

Yes I know all about spain and italy, but the human rights that Turkey show towards the Kurds is less than good.


a survey was done over there and over 25% of the populace said they would like to move. 25% of what 70 million is a lot of people.

First part: IMO most important argument against letting join.

Second: source?


In my opinion it is just a simle as that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

does membership in the EU allow your citizens the right to move anywhere they like within the EU without visa or other restrictions?
If that were so, I think in the case of Turkey, they'd have to have set immigration laws (from outside the EU) that all EU members could agree to, and I think the same should be said for every EU country.

After all, if once you're in the EU, you're free to travel any where within the EU, then the loosest immigration laws are essentially the immigration laws for the entire continent (and America's immigration laws are pretty much Canada's immigration laws, etc).

I think it's pretty much safe to say that if Turkey had free borders to other Mid East nations, they wouldn't be put up with in the EU if they also had free borders to the EU...

Yes and they would bring all their drugs and guns over here and bomber-men.
yes. and this is how WWIII will start. We'll all die a most miserable death.
the end.

does membership in the EU allow your citizens the right to move anywhere they like within the EU without visa or other restrictions?
Only if they're members of the [some agreement]. At the moment some countries aren't members and thus you'd need a passport some places and not other places. Of cause it would be possible to get anywhere within EU if you just get a passport.

does membership in the EU allow your citizens the right to move anywhere they like within the EU without visa or other restrictions?

yes, all you need to move between countries is a form of ID, however in the UK since we dont have ID cards the only thing we can use to travel in the EU is our passports but theres no visa in them and you dont get a stamp or anything. However the French just have to show their national ID card to get between Eu countries

I think it would be a mistake to let them join at this point in time they are to backwards and they would lower us instead of us raiseing them. We should concentrate on the Ukraine and try to get them to join.

Yes and they would bring all their drugs and guns over here and bomber-men.

To me this sounds like propaganda.
1. Yeah, of course, everyone knows of the FAMOUS Turkish drugs, guns and suicide-bombers.
2. They will walk and SWIM here so they don't have to use an aeroplane, because drugs and GUNS do not go together with the controlls so very well.

I think it would be a mistake to let them join at this point in time they are to backwards and they would lower us instead of us raiseing them. We should concentrate on the Ukraine and try to get them to join.
Actually...shutting Turkey out instead of trying to bring them in and assimilate them more toward a European lifestyle (despite their religion difference, which shouldn't make a difference) is probably a mistake.

Being in the European Union and moving freely among countries is not the same thing. What gives the people of many european countries the right to travel with nothing but an id is the Schengen Treaty. Although most of all countries in the EU have signed the Schengen Treaty, some of them (UK and Ireland) didn't. And some countries have signed Schengen but are not members of EU (i.e. Norway). So there is no point in saying that 70 millions turks coming all the way to Europe.

Of course you may ask yourselves, will there be an European Union in five years?

Only if they're members of the [some agreement]. At the moment some countries aren't members and thus you'd need a passport some places and not other places. Of cause it would be possible to get anywhere within EU if you just get a passport.

[some agreement] == "Schengen treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_treaty) "

Look at the map: UK is not a member although in EU, but Norway and iceland are although not in EU.

Being in the European Union and moving freely among countries is not the same thing. What gives the people of many european countries the right to travel with nothing but an id is the Schengen Treaty. Although most of all countries in the EU have signed the Schengen Treaty, some of them (UK and Ireland) didn't. And some countries have signed Schengen but are not members of EU (i.e. Norway). So there is no point in saying that 70 millions turks coming all the way to Europe.

I said 25% not the whole population, the Ukraine is fully democratic with a successful market economy, thus fulfilling the Copenhagen criteria, so why is the EU so reluctant to let them join.

Because Turkey is a muslim country they don't share the same values and their is a possibility of a cultural clash. and it is located in a troubled area of the world (drawing the EU into conflicts).

No actually Ukrine doesn't meet the criterias to join.

Because Turkey is a muslim country they don't share the same values and their is a possibility of a cultural clash. and it is located in a troubled area of the world (drawing the EU into conflicts).
What I see here is the fear of an unknown country. Islam doesn't tell its followers to go kick some christian butt just for fun; it says that any other belief should be held in respect. I am sure that in Turkey, maybe just in Istanbul, there are more churches than any other european union country has mosquees.

Even if we say that admitting Turkey in EU carries a risk of cultural clash; with Ukraine, Europe can have nuclear centrals exploding in its heart. If we judge every country with our baseless prejudices, we can find any excuse for keeping them out.

Besides, as long as there are troubled areas in the world, there will be terrorism, and trouble everywhere, just as we've seen in Madrid, Istanbul and London. The solution isn't to isolate ourselves from those areas because we are afraid, it is to try to help them. If admitting Turkey would let EU resolve the conflicts, then it should, for its own benefit.

I think everyone left out an important factor.. Turkey has a population of 60-70 million and would therefore become the largest Member Nation, pretty big issue. Whereas the goverment of Turkey might not want a very large voice, I'm rather sure teh people of Turkey will want one, sinc ethey have such vast numbers. To add to that them being muslim could cause a culture clash, if they do want more of a say in the EU, they can say they're being left out since they're muslim.

And add to that Turkey invades Greek airspace almost daily. Greece is, and has been, a member of the EU.

And Portakal, while I think you may be wrong with the assumption that Istanbul may have more churches than a european city has mosques, it's still irrelevant. Istanbul was a center for Christendom 600 years ago, and still is the center for a significant number of Christians. It used to have more churches in it than any other city in Europe, granted many have been turned into mosques.

And whoever said Constantinople (Istanbul), Smyrni (Izmir), and Ankara are very European cities, that could be because they used to be European cities and many Europeans still inhabited them up until WWI.

This issue has been a very controversial one ever since the EU formed. However, I dont think that Turkey should be part of the EU due to the fact that they are not geographically located in Europe. Also, Turkey has a relatively instable economy, and they are also having some problems with terrorism. Another major thing is that the European Union is quite unstable as of right now, and so as of right now I dont think they can handle any more nations. They are somewhat affected by the War on Iraq.

Britain has a population of nearly 70 million and France and germany has a population of over 80 million, pluss their are a lot of turks over there.

Russian leader Vladimir Putin has said Russia would not object if Ukraine joined the EU.
Putin says it would help the Russian economy to closer integrate into the EU. He also said, however, that he would be against Ukraine joining NATO:
Ukraines population is forty eight million.

And Portakal, while I think you may be wrong with the assumption that Istanbul may have more churches than a european city has mosques, it's still irrelevant. Istanbul was a center for Christendom 600 years ago, and still is the center for a significant number of Christians. It used to have more churches in it than any other city in Europe, granted many have been turned into mosques.

And whoever said Constantinople (Istanbul), Smyrni (Izmir), and Ankara are very European cities, that could be because they used to be European cities and many Europeans still inhabited them up until WWI.

Istanbul isn't the only turkish city with many churches, besides while I was making my point, I wasn't talking about Istanbul in 1400s, I was talking about the actual city. And the number of churches is hardly irrelevent since its shows the tolerance towards other religions in a mostly islamic country; a tolerance that muslims doesn't receive from some places in the EU, like Germany. I don't remember muslims burning a church in Turkey but I remember mosques burnt in Europe.

And I also remember attending to a Christmas celebration in an italian church, which was full of christians of course, but also with many muslims who were curious about the ceremony.

The point I am trying to make is, I believe that educated and modern people don't need religion, and rejecting a country because most of its population believes in one is simply not logical. If there is a cultural clash in this conversation, it is coming from the EU side.

Speaking of Turkey...

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul

<snip>
nice random lyrics
mmmmmmmmm (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu4.jpg)

nice random lyrics
mmmmmmmmm (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu4.jpg)
nice :)

Even if just a portion of Turkey is in Europe, they're still in it. If anything Europe and Asia should be called Eurasia, hell, I do, since it's technically correct. So in my opinion it should be the Eurasian Union, not the European Union since Europe technically is just a small region in Asia. The USA takes up only a third of North America, but that doesn't mean America is its own continent. A better analogy would be Central America, however.

Even if just a portion of Turkey is in Europe, they're still in it. If anything Europe and Asia should be called Eurasia, hell, I do, since it's technically correct. So in my opinion it should be the Eurasian Union, not the European Union since Europe technically is just a small region in Asia. The USA takes up only a third of North America, but that doesn't mean America is its own continent. A better analogy would be Central America, however.
Geographically, the Middle East is definitely part of Asia, but most people don't really consider the Middle East (Iran and west, until you hit Africa) to really be part of Asia.

As far as America...most people consider North America to be Mexico, United States, and Canada. South America is pretty clearly defined, and Central America is pretty much considered similarly to how the Middle East is, including all the nations in between North and South, plus the Carribbean Islands.

I think it would be europes downfall if Turkey joined.

My question to you the public is should Turkey be allowed to join Europe.
I wonder whether I've seen you before....hmmm ;)

I say they should be allowed to on principle, but the criteria should be set very high.
There must be a clear move towards modernisation and political liberalisation. We've seen already that if you want everyone to join at once, you're gonna get trouble. And I wasn't too impressed with that Woman's Rights protest business a few weeks ago either.
Add to that the current trouble with the constitution, and I'd say they should wait for a while.

Other candidates would be most of Northern Africa, and the Balcans of course.

I wonder whether I've seen you before....hmmm ;)



I have had to morph so many times cos they keep banning me its so unfair!

I have had to morph so many times cos they keep banning me its so unfair!

whats going to make this time any different?

I am a huge fan of the E.U., and also of Turkey. I think they should be allowed in. Obviously, it would be good for their economy. At the same time, the big European countries would get access to eighty million additional workers. They've been stealing Turkey's labour for half a century anyway, they might as well do it legally.
As I recall, Alien Born mentioned in the second post that letting Turkey enter would open the door for other non-European nations to enter. I refer that person to the failed Moroccan application. Not that I would mind if it did... I wrote a forty-page paper as a mini-thesis for the last year of my B.A. degree on the prospects of a Canadian entry into my favourite multilateral organisation. After all, geography does not enter the Copenhagen Criteria. If a country is willing to meet the Acquis required to join, why not?
Anyway, that is just my opinion; and I am very openly biased. Iyi gunler!

whats going to make this time any different?

Its never different they allways pick on me sometimes I get a few days sometimes hours and sometimes minutes, they always pick on me.
My ip adress can change so they can never ban me compleatly.

My ip adress can change so they can never ban me compleatly.
I know a better way.
Keep your opinions, but phrase them less offensively, back them up with quotes and facts, and refrain from making generalising statements that are unfounded and do nothing but attract anger. Just stick to the rules of having a civilised discussion, and you won't be banned.

I know a better way.
Keep your opinions, but phrase them less offensively, back them up with quotes and facts, and refrain from making generalising statements that are unfounded and do nothing but attract anger. Just stick to the rules of having a civilised discussion, and you won't be banned.

They would pick on me anyway I think they don't like me. Gataway_Driver grassed me up aswell.

Sure, I mean, they're closer to Europe than anything else(Geographically and socially).

I'm serious here. You think they're like the Arabs? Pffffft! All they have ever done is conquer the Arabs! Sure, they're Muslims, but that's like saying Latinos are German! Turkey isn't "backwards" or "barbaric" or "uncivilised", they are different. They listen to similar music to you(cept in Turkist :)), they looks similar, they dress similar(except for the headscrafs, which are more of a fashion statement now), they use Cell-phones, use High-speed internet, etc, etc. Bringing them in would boost international support for the EU, showing that the Europeans aren't some elitist racists who think that the Turks can't be in because they are of a different culture. Turkey has MUCH to offer the EU, yet the French are too obsessed with having only French Plumbers that they wouldn't even want the POLES(fellow Europeans) to be their plumbers.

They would pick on me anyway I think they don't like me. Gataway_Driver grassed me up aswell.

Well u shouldn't have been a troll like you were before

Until a few years ago in Turkey it was possible for a man to rape a woman and be allowed a shorter jail term if he agreed to marry her - hardly a bastion of modernity and progress.

Turkey is very distinct from the rest of Europe both economically, culturally and geographically. The majority of Turkey is not even part of Europe and the nation is not as secularised as it ought to be.

It would be an economic drain upon the rest of Europe as the nation would require enormous subsidies to get it up to an acceptable economic level.

Turkey still has a very poor record on human rights.

It should not be allowed to join the EU.

Sure, I mean, they're closer to Europe than anything else(Geographically and socially).

I'm serious here. You think they're like the Arabs? Pffffft! All they have ever done is conquer the Arabs! Sure, they're Muslims, but that's like saying Latinos are German! Turkey isn't "backwards" or "barbaric" or "uncivilised", they are different. They listen to similar music to you(cept in Turkist :)), they looks similar, they dress similar(except for the headscrafs, which are more of a fashion statement now), they use Cell-phones, use High-speed internet, etc, etc. Bringing them in would boost international support for the EU, showing that the Europeans aren't some elitist racists who think that the Turks can't be in because they are of a different culture. Turkey has MUCH to offer the EU, yet the French are too obsessed with having only French Plumbers that they wouldn't even want the POLES(fellow Europeans) to be their plumbers.

Europe does not have to prove that it is not elitist or racist to anyone and certainly should not have to make decisions on the basis of some totalitarian PCness.

Europe does not have to prove that it is not elitist or racist to anyone and certainly should not have to make decisions on the basis of some totalitarian PCness.

?

Dude, this is the General Forums. This is where ourSELVES debate, not our countries :P.

Well u shouldn't have been a troll like you were before

I don't know even what trolling means, they just like picking on people.

Until a few years ago in Turkey it was possible for a man to rape a woman and be allowed a shorter jail term if he agreed to marry her - hardly a bastion of modernity and progress.

Turkey is very distinct from the rest of Europe both economically, culturally and geographically. The majority of Turkey is not even part of Europe and the nation is not as secularised as it ought to be.

It would be an economic drain upon the rest of Europe as the nation would require enormous subsidies to get it up to an acceptable economic level.

Turkey still has a very poor record on human rights.

It should not be allowed to join the EU.

Until a few years ago someone would "pick you up" in a car in Germany and you wouldn't be seen again.

Turkey is, economically, at LEAST like the countries in Eastern Europe that joined the union. The Italians have a different culture than the Poles, and so what if it has a different geography?

Oh, so instead of giving subsidies to the not-so-rich countries of the east and Turkey you should give them to the rich french flower-farmers?

So do half the countries that joined the E.U. last year!

Turkey should be allowed IF it puts in a few social and political reforms.

Listen, all I'm saying is give them a chance. They have at LEAST a decade, and 10 years can me enough to fix their problems. Don't say they can't join because you are afraid that your new plumber will be Turkish.

Ukraine would join way before Russia, they are closer to us, they have oil good doctors a good education system lots of food. Doe's anyone know what religion makes up the populace is it cathecism?

Ukrainian Orthodox - Kiev Patriarchate 19%, Orthodox (no particular jurisdiction) 16%, Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 9%, Ukrainian Greek Catholic 6%, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox 1.7%, Protestant, Jewish, none 38% (2004 est.) sauce: CIA World Factbook

yes. and this is how WWIII will start. We'll all die a most miserable death.
the end.

Wow, I always thought that WWII began when a crippled nation was taken up by an expansionist leader who decided he didn't want to agree with international acceptance and remove his troops from nearby nations.

As far as America...most people consider North America to be Mexico, United States, and Canada. South America is pretty clearly defined, and Central America is pretty much considered similarly to how the Middle East is, including all the nations in between North and South, plus the Carribbean Islands.

Would this include Greenland?

But don't you think the Turkish are to primitive to join europe?

Compared to Romania and other Eastern European countries.
(Note not actually bagging Eastern Europe)
If advanced ecomony is the prerequisite then France and Germany shopuld be kicked out.
Turkey has been told if you meet these requirements, you can join, to so
'no you can't join now' would have huge socio-political ramifications, and set the ME relations back even further, and give more ammo to the hate mongers such as al Queda.