NationStates Jolt Archive

Prelude: Why don’t the opponents of this series try to read the whole fucking thing this time? I know, I know: it's tough. I write so eloquently that only the most elite of people can truly understand what I have to say. That's understandable. But try, nonetheless. The stupidity of certain questions that were asked with respect to episode II in my new series was humorous, but still annoying, especially since most of said questions were answered in the initial text. Let’s try to use our heads, here.

Well, I know this is a tad bit late, but it seems like bitching about what assholes some Americans have been at Guantanamo Bay has become overly popular. Now, I’ll admit, it really sucks that these poor, defenseless prisoners of war are being treated the way they are. It really sucks that the people running Gitmo are stooping to the terrorists’ level, what with all the people that the United States has beheaded there. It really sucks that the people held at Guantanamo Bay aren’t being given a fair trial like they are promised, seeing as they are obviously American citizens.

Anyway, my sarcasm is not meant to in any way condone what a few United States workers at Gitmo have done. It sucks. It has to do with war, so, inherently, it’s going to suck. But I am saying that I understand. I can understand why soldiers would do shit like what they’ve done. What I don’t understand are the people that act as if what Americans have done at Gitmo can even remotely compare with what they’ve done to us and others.

Am I the only one that doesn’t give a shit? Saddam used red hot fire pokers to torture information out of prisoners. Terrorists have sawed off the heads of their prisoners to make statements - and yes, sawed off… not chopped, not hacked, not cleaved, but sawed. Like, slowly and painfully.

No, we shouldn’t be torturing these prisoners, and we should try them, and what they have done does not excuse what we have done. But what they have done does make me get that tingly “I don’t give a shit” feeling all over. Whether we act irresponsibly with their prisoners or not, terrorists are not going to change their tactics, and they sure as hell can’t intensify the extremity of their methods. Thus, I just can’t bring myself to give a shit when some of their people receive unjust punishment that, while unjust, is infinitesimally lesser than what both our soldiers and our civilians receive.

I have to say I give a shit. Just because They did those things to us does not mean we do it to them. We have to be above them, other wise it is not worth it.

I have to say I give a shit. Just because They did those things to us does not mean we do it to them. We have to be above them, other wise it is not worth it.

You couldn't even make it past the prelude, could you? I said to actually read the post.

No, we shouldn’t be torturing these prisoners, and we should try them, and what they have done does not excuse what we have done. But what they have done does make me get that tingly “I don’t give a shit” feeling all over. Whether we act irresponsibly with their prisoners or not, terrorists are not going to change their tactics, and they sure as hell can’t intensify the extremity of their methods. Thus, I just can’t bring myself to give a shit when some of their people receive unjust punishment that, while unjust, is infinitesimally lesser than what both our soldiers and our civilians receive.

I would tell you to read the paragraph, but since you couldn't make it through the prelude (probably just saw the thread title and the word "Guantanamo," and assumed, read the bold words. I'm not saying we're excused.

Whether we act irresponsibly with their prisoners or not, terrorists are not going to change their tactics, and they sure as hell can’t intensify the extremity of their methods.
Thus, I just can’t bring myself to give a shit when some of their people receive unjust punishment that, while unjust, is infinitesimally lesser than what both our soldiers and our civilians receive.
That is where I totally disagree. One of these days, there should be a big discussion out there: Are "Terrorists" humans? Because you are suggesting they aren't - because human beings have rational reasons for what they do. It seems to me like you discount those reasons because you feel insulted if AQ engages in shock tactics to get its' message across - whether it is flying planes into buildings or sawing someone's head off.
And you can't argue "what they're doing is much worse than what we're doing" when you at the same time claim to be civilised, and that they are savages.

That is where I totally disagree. One of these days, there should be a big discussion out there: Are "Terrorists" humans? Because you are suggesting they aren't - because human beings have rational reasons for what they do. It seems to me like you discount those reasons because you feel insulted if AQ engages in shock tactics to get its' message across - whether it is flying planes into buildings or sawing someone's head off.
And you can't argue "what they're doing is much worse than what we're doing" when you at the same time claim to be civilised, and that they are savages.

Haha, I should put an "Am I the only one who doesn't give a shit?" episode on whether terrorists are humans. You see, they may be humans, but they don't think or act like it, and the fundamentalists never will, simply because of the way they feel towards us. For years prior to our official war against them, we haven't randomly imprisoned, tortured and unlawfully detained their people, but did they do it to us anyway? Yes. And the point made about how our gratuities are incomparable was to combat from the start the generic "stooping to their level" argument.

a) You see, they may be humans, but they don't think or act like it, and the fundamentalists never will, simply because of the way they feel towards us.
b) For years prior to our official war against them, we haven't randomly imprisoned, tortured and unlawfully detained their people, but did they do it to us anyway? Yes.
c) And the point made about how our gratuities are incomparable was to combat from the start the generic "stooping to their level" argument.
a) But if they are humans, then in my view regardless of how they think or act, they have certain rights, like a right to be treated with dignity. It's even in the US constitution, and I don't see how you want to justify breaking your own constitution because "they did it first". They don't have one other than the Koran, and they are ignoring that as well.
EDIT: Oh, and because they hate you, they no longer think and act like humans?
b) One could get into an agument about the motives of terrorists, but I think I won't. That would better fit into the Terrorists = Humans thread...
c) On principle though, it doesn't actually make a difference though whether you are being kidnapped by AQ or the CIA, whether you are being shot or get your head sawn off.
So on principle, you are stooping to their level: They do the wrong thing, and you retaliate by doing the wrong thing. While at the same time claiming the moral high ground.

a) But if they are humans, then in my view regardless of how they think or act, they have certain rights, like a right to be treated with dignity. It's even in the US constitution, and I don't see how you want to justify breaking your own constitution because "they did it first". They don't have one other than the Koran, and they are ignoring that as well.

Then I suppose it truly is just a matter of our opinions on this subject, as, in my opinion, doing what the terrorists do makes them violently criminal, and thus less than human, and thus undeserving of dignity. Besides, they don't go by the U.S. constitution, nor should they want to.

b) One could get into an agument about the motives of terrorists, but I think I won't. That would better fit into the Terrorists = Humans thread...

If you truly want to, I don't mind being hijacked.

c) On principle though, it doesn't actually make a difference though whether you are being kidnapped by AQ or the CIA, whether you are being shot or get your head sawn off.
So on principle, you are stooping to their level: They do the wrong thing, and you retaliate by doing the wrong thing. While at the same time claiming the moral high ground.

But in reality, their thing is much more wrong. Sawing a civilian's head off is considerably more cruel and inhumane than riding a prisoner of war around naked. But anyway, I will say once again: I'm not claiming moral high ground. I don't think either side is right in what they do. I'm just saying that I can wholly understand where the people at Gitmo are coming from in what they do.

Then I suppose it truly is just a matter of our opinions on this subject, as, in my opinion, doing what the terrorists do makes them violently criminal, and thus less than human, and thus undeserving of dignity. Besides, they don't go by the U.S. constitution, nor should they want to.
Yeah, I noticed. What's wrong with "painting some walls with their brains, other than that's politically incorrect".
That was an ignorant thing to say, and didn't exactly make you look intellectually qualified.


But in reality, their thing is much more wrong...
But isn't this whole "War vs Terrorism" thing, this "clash of civilisations" all about principle?
I thought it was about "freedom" and "democracy" and human rights and all the rest of it. If you're going to disregard those principles, then the ideological battle is long lost, and it really doesn't matter whether the US comes out on top because the rest of the world will suffer just the same.

Gitmo is a hilton hotel compared to what these guys would be getting in their home countries jails.

as a former middle easterner, i laugh when i read about the reported "abuses". Especially the one about heat....it makes me laugh so much so. Loud music?! if they went to their home countries prisons they would get much worse. What makes me sad though is the people soak it up as if it actually had any creditible fact to it. But then again, the only people to believe it are people that had a negative viewpoint to begin with and will believe that faires exist if it supports their hatreds.

And believing that every human being has a rational action is proof right there that people are not always rational. Get out of your delusions man, you think killing yourself by exploding a bomb in a bus is a RATIONAL thought? if so then please go do it because the world doesnt need you in it.

Yeah, I noticed. What's wrong with "painting some walls with their brains, other than that's politically incorrect".
That was an ignorant thing to say, and didn't exactly make you look intellectually qualified.

If you consider anyone on this website intellectually qualified, you need a reality check. Besides, if you looked beyond my brash, obnoxious comments and general form, you might see that I make some good points. Then again, you might find out I'm just a dick.

But isn't this whole "War vs Terrorism" thing, this "clash of civilisations" all about principle?
I thought it was about "freedom" and "democracy" and human rights and all the rest of it. If you're going to disregard those principles, then the ideological battle is long lost, and it really doesn't matter whether the US comes out on top because the rest of the world will suffer just the same.

Yeah, and the U.S. is demonstrating its principles by not sawing people's heads off and branding them.

Yeah, and the U.S. is demonstrating its principles by not sawing people's heads off and branding them.
What I mean is principles like "torture is wrong", "people have a right to a fair trial" and so on.
Oh, and I started a "Terrorists are Humans"-thread. Let's see how that develops.

What I mean is principles like "torture is wrong", "people have a right to a fair trial" and so on.
Oh, and I started a "Terrorists are Humans"-thread. Let's see how that develops.

Heh, is that really its name? Even I don't form my readers' opinions for them. I'll check it out.

It really sucks that the people held at Guantanamo Bay aren’t being given a fair trial like they are promised, seeing as they are obviously American citizens.

...can even remotely compare with what they’ve done to us and others.

...what they have done...

But what they have done does make me get that tingly “I don’t give a shit” feeling all over.Since there was no trial where evidence could be presented, how do you know those random people being held prisoner did anything wrong?

Since there was no trial where evidence could be presented, how do you know those random people being held prisoner did anything wrong?

Be reasonable, now. Where were they caught? What were they caught doing? Were any fished out of random villages that were not known to be doing anything wrong? If so, apologies, but I seriously doubt it.

Were any fished out of random villages that were not known to be doing anything wrong? If so, apologies, but I seriously doubt it.
What about the various people who where in X-Ray and have now been released without ever having been on trial? The case I am most familiar with is Mamdouh Habib, an Australian permanent resident on holidays in Pakistan.
At the most, they could have been suspected of something, but it certainly wasn't "known".

What about the various people who where in X-Ray and have now been released without ever having been on trial? The case I am most familiar with is Mamdouh Habib, an Australian permanent resident on holidays in Pakistan.
At the most, they could have been suspected of something, but it certainly wasn't "known".

Fine, I'll give you 'suspected.' The point is, it's not like these people are detained for no reason.

It's time for the noon bump to account for me always posting new episodes at 2:00 AM.

What about the various people who where in X-Ray and have now been released without ever having been on trial? The case I am most familiar with is Mamdouh Habib, an Australian permanent resident on holidays in Pakistan.
At the most, they could have been suspected of something, but it certainly wasn't "known".

Out of something like 70,000 combatants, Gitmo houses the worst few hundred. Of those released, over 10 have already been killed or recaptured, and a further 15 (I think) have been linked to terrorist activity. One of the British people held there upon his release admitted to funding Al-Qaeda and being in one of their training camps. Sorry, but like Aldranin said, they're not just grabbing random Muslims off the street and hauling them away to Gitmo.

Having heard how the prisoners treat the soldiers at Gitmo, I can fully understand how they act. Hell, even without that I could understand it, but takin that into consideration I'd only reprimand the soldiers to look good to the public.

Having heard how the prisoners treat the soldiers at Gitmo, I can fully understand how they act. Hell, even without that I could understand it, but takin that into consideration I'd only reprimand the soldiers to look good to the public.

Exactly, that's all I'm saying.

im only bothered by knowing that a certain number of our "detainees" are not terrorists at all but men caught at the wrong time in the wrong place. that they should suffer in gitmo or wherever else when they havent done anything to us does disturb me.

those who are the top brass of alqaida, well, im not for torture or detaining people without representatation, charges or trials but i dont lose any sleep over these guys having a bad time at gitmo. i just want them to be brought to trial and convicted so we can all feel that there has been some justice done.

im only bothered by knowing that a certain number of our "detainees" are not terrorists at all but men caught at the wrong time in the wrong place. that they should suffer in gitmo or wherever else when they havent done anything to us does disturb me.

I don't know of anyone in Gitmo that was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and isn't at least reasonably suspected of doing something, but that's a fair thing to give a shit about.

those who are the top brass of alqaida, well, im not for torture or detaining people without representatation, charges or trials but i dont lose any sleep over these guys having a bad time at gitmo. i just want them to be brought to trial and convicted so we can all feel that there has been some justice done.

Exactly what I'm saying.

Prelude: Why don’t the opponents of this series try to read the whole fucking thing this time? I know, I know: it's tough.
Because it's too long? or maybe because...
Am I the only one that doesn’t give a shit?
Yes.

Aldranin your on the right track. Keep it up.

Aldranin your on the right track. Keep it up.

Heh, thanks for the support.

Unfortunately I think it is a necessary evil, but the Americans should make more of an effort to process and get non-terrorists out of Guantanamo (sp?).

Prelude: Why don’t the opponents of this series try to read the whole fucking thing this time? I know, I know: it's tough. I write so eloquently that only the most elite of people can truly understand what I have to say. That's understandable. But try, nonetheless. The stupidity of certain questions that were asked with respect to episode II in my new series was humorous, but still annoying, especially since most of said questions were answered in the initial text. Let’s try to use our heads, here.

Well, I know this is a tad bit late, but it seems like bitching about what assholes some Americans have been at Guantanamo Bay has become overly popular. Now, I’ll admit, it really sucks that these poor, defenseless prisoners of war are being treated the way they are. It really sucks that the people running Gitmo are stooping to the terrorists’ level, what with all the people that the United States has beheaded there. It really sucks that the people held at Guantanamo Bay aren’t being given a fair trial like they are promised, seeing as they are obviously American citizens.

Anyway, my sarcasm is not meant to in any way condone what a few United States workers at Gitmo have done. It sucks. It has to do with war, so, inherently, it’s going to suck. But I am saying that I understand. I can understand why soldiers would do shit like what they’ve done. What I don’t understand are the people that act as if what Americans have done at Gitmo can even remotely compare with what they’ve done to us and others.

Am I the only one that doesn’t give a shit? Saddam used red hot fire pokers to torture information out of prisoners. Terrorists have sawed off the heads of their prisoners to make statements - and yes, sawed off… not chopped, not hacked, not cleaved, but sawed. Like, slowly and painfully.

No, we shouldn’t be torturing these prisoners, and we should try them, and what they have done does not excuse what we have done. But what they have done does make me get that tingly “I don’t give a shit” feeling all over. Whether we act irresponsibly with their prisoners or not, terrorists are not going to change their tactics, and they sure as hell can’t intensify the extremity of their methods. Thus, I just can’t bring myself to give a shit when some of their people receive unjust punishment that, while unjust, is infinitesimally lesser than what both our soldiers and our civilians receive.
Despite your self proclaimed eloquence, the poll questions that you have posted are seriously flawed to the point that I cannot vote for either option due to the way they are worded.

Considering your comment "that only the most elite of people can truly understand what I have to say", suggests that you are unable to communicate effectively with those of lesser intelligence, further skewing your chances of collecting polling data that would be useful.

Since I am unable to vote in your flawed poll, I will offer my humble opinion on the subject. Any and all prisoners of war, and yes the so called "terrorists" are prisoners of war, should be treated in strict adherence of the Geneva Conventions. Anything less would be uncivilized, immoral, and illegal. Anyone who tortures prisoners in contravention of the Conventions, should be charged and tried as a criminal of war.

Despite your self proclaimed eloquence, the poll questions that you have posted are seriously flawed to the point that I cannot vote for either option due to the way they are worded.

Considering your comment "that only the most elite of people can truly understand what I have to say", suggests that you are unable to communicate effectively with those of lesser intelligence, further skewing your chances of collecting polling data that would be useful.

Since I am unable to vote in your flawed poll, I will offer my humble opinion on the subject. Any and all prisoners of war, and yes the so called "terrorists" are prisoners of war, should be treated in strict adherence of the Geneva Conventions. Anything less would be uncivilized, immoral, and illegal. Anyone who tortures prisoners in contravention of the Conventions, should be charged and tried as a criminal of war.

Canuck, let me explain something to you: the poll is a joke, as are all polls, as are a third of the things I've said in this thread. To take this entire thing seriously is stupid.