NationStates Jolt Archive

Italy to pull troops out of Iraq
Friday, July 8, 2005 Updated at 12:56 PM EDT
Associated Press

Gleneagles, Scotland — Italy plans to begin withdrawing some of its troops from Iraq in September, Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Friday.

Mr. Berlusconi, who was a strong supporter of President Bush on Iraq, sent 3,000 troops to the country after the ouster of Saddam Hussein to help rebuild the country.

© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc.
www.theglobeandmail.com

Yeah well, its not like they have been much at fighting since the Roman Empire fell, I feel no great surprise.

Actually, he announced that a few months ago too. It's been planned for a while.

Been on the cards ever since that reporter got shot at by the US. Anti-warfeelings have been high in Italy

I wish the timing of the statement were such that is doesn't appear as though he is capitulating to terrorists. Not that he is, necessarily, just should avoid the perception that he is.

Good for Italy. It's about time they joined the right side, that being the anti-Iraq war side!

Good for Italy. It's about time they joined the right side, that being the anti-Iraq war side!
Yeah, let's get all the western troops out of Iraq so that the country can fall completely into chaos and be turned into a no-man's-land of rival warlords like Afghanistan after the Soviets left. Clearly that's the best plan of action.

Yeah, let's get all the western troops out of Iraq so that the country can fall completely into chaos and be turned into a no-man's-land of rival warlords like Afghanistan after the Soviets left. Clearly that's the best plan of action.
Yes it is. It will serve as an example to the world. Stay at home if you don't know what you're doing.

That's what the US gets for killing an Italian citizen and illegaly kidnapping people within Italy's borders. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/06/30/security.italy.kidnap/)

Yes it is. It will serve as an example to the world. Stay at home if you don't know what you're doing.
What example? An example to illustrate how the west can't persevere in the face of some opposition? Perhaps an example to illustrate that our promises are empty.

No, we have to stay in Iraq until the security situation is stable and the Iraqi government can provide services to the citizens who elected them.

What DC said. Islamic fundamentalist terrorists will not stop the violence even if we pulled out of Iraq completely. They hate us, our society, our religions. You can't buy peace from them by being nice.

What example? An example to illustrate how the west can't persevere in the face of some opposition? Perhaps an example to illustrate that our promises are empty.

No, we have to stay in Iraq until the security situation is stable and the Iraqi government can provide services to the citizens who elected them.
That may never happen.

I point you to the Soviet Union's decade-long display of weakness and cowardice in Afghanistan. 15,000-25,000 military dead, and one million insurgents and assorted people who harboured them killed, and they achieved nothing. They wasted their money, their lives, and sped up the downfall of their own economy and society.

We see the same in the long, futile French struggle against communism in Vietnam, and America's subsequent best efforts and far more spectacular failure. More than twenty years of fighting, which only served to damage the standing of the respective countries. Perhaps too much liberal thinking sapped their resolve. We should have given it at least one more decade...

At least the entire UN showed a united front in Korea, still being defeated in only three years and conceeding a draw, along the same damn border.

Algiers...enough said. A rare example of all the terrorists being killed (yay!) but their ungrateful successors booted the French out and today we see a fascist dictatorship fighting its own counter-insurgency in the countryside.

Chechnya...compared to the lengths Russia went to in their struggle against local bandits, the destruction of Fallujah was a weak, half-hearted effort. Third time lucky, perhaps? Though I don't see what action could be more decisive than flattening a city with MLRS and fuel-air bombs, twice.

I could go on. The message is simple: in any counter-insurgency the possibility of defeat is real, even if you expend ammunition equivalent to all that used in WW2. And when it comes, as it usually does if the history of the 20th Century is anything to go by, decades later you will look back and wish you had given up earlier, or better yet, never even tried in the first place.

The way it has been looking from the beginning, years from now we will lose and pull out. If/when it happens, I know I'm not getting a refund on my tax money, so I vote for a withdrawal now.

Good for Italy. It's about time they joined the right side, that being the anti-Iraq war side!

Bit late for that now considering we have ravaged the country and now on the rebuilding of that country. The Itallians shot the place up and now they have decided to leave clearling this up to the rest of us. It won't make them any less of a threat.

"There isn't a single country in Europe that can consider itself immune to this type of risk," European Union Counter-Terrorism Coordinator Gijs de Vries said in Brussels.

At least we are going to finish what we started

That may never happen.

I point you to the Soviet Union's decade-long display of weakness and cowardice in Afghanistan. 15,000-25,000 military dead, and one million insurgents and assorted people who harboured them killed, and they achieved nothing. They wasted their money, their lives, and sped up the downfall of their own economy and society.

We see the same in the long, futile French struggle against communism in Vietnam, and America's subsequent best efforts and far more spectacular failure. More than twenty years of fighting, which only served to damage the standing of the respective countries. Perhaps too much liberal thinking sapped their resolve. We should have given it at least one more decade...

At least the entire UN showed a united front in Korea, still being defeated in only three years and conceeding a draw, along the same damn border.

Algiers...enough said. A rare example of all the terrorists being killed (yay!) but their ungrateful successors booted the French out and today we see a fascist dictatorship fighting its own counter-insurgency in the countryside.

Chechnya...compared to the lengths Russia went to in their struggle against local bandits, the destruction of Fallujah was a weak, half-hearted effort. Third time lucky, perhaps? Though I don't see what action could be more decisive than flattening a city with MLRS and fuel-air bombs, twice.

I could go on. The message is simple: in any counter-insurgency the possibility of defeat is real, even if you expend ammunition equivalent to all that used in WW2. And when it comes, as it usually does if the history of the 20th Century is anything to go by, decades later you will look back and wish you had given up earlier, or better yet, never even tried in the first place.

The way it has been looking from the beginning, years from now we will lose and pull out. If/when it happens, I know I'm not getting a refund on my tax money, so I vote for a withdrawal now.
You've said that in any counter-insurgency the possibility of defeat is real. Ok, but if you give up it's no longer a possibility of defeat, it's a certainty. The coalition has actually achieved some success in Iraq. There's a democratically elected government, Iraqi police and military are gaining strength despite the attacks against them. The Iraqi people are starting to hate the insurgents in many areas and support their elected government.

We took a gamble on Iraq. I didn't think the odds were good enough to take that gamble, but my opinion counts for little. Now that the money's on the table we need to play out the game or else forfeit any chance at victory and ensure defeat. If we leave now we betray the people of Iraq. We took their government and security away. We owe them a new government and a renewed sense of security.

You've said that in any counter-insurgency the possibility of defeat is real. Ok, but if you give up it's no longer a possibility of defeat, it's a certainty. The coalition has actually achieved some success in Iraq. There's a democratically elected government, Iraqi police and military are gaining strength despite the attacks against them. The Iraqi people are starting to hate the insurgents in many areas and support their elected government.

We took a gamble on Iraq. I didn't think the odds were good enough to take that gamble, but my opinion counts for little. Now that the money's on the table we need to play out the game or else forfeit any chance at victory and ensure defeat. If we leave now we betray the people of Iraq. We took their government and security away. We owe them a new government and a renewed sense of security.
According to a recent audit of the reconstruction effort by KPMG, which was delayed for two years, billions of dollars of US and Iraqi reconstruction money have been embezzled and laundered, in many cases by American contractors and service personnel. It was in yesterday's Guardian. In a lot of these cases, the names of the criminals are known, pretty difficult to claim innocence when it's your receipts from an account given to you to manage, that are pointing the finger. And yet, no action. Instead, we had the auditors being told to get lost until a couple of months ago.

So, I really doubt there's much money on the table. If there is, it's not going to stay there for long, if a US Army officer can charge an Iraqi hospital administrator more than $1m extra to cover his "retirement package". Yes, it really is that open. Those who complain get told that they are lucky to be free and should STFU. ($40m went to the American soldiers in that particular incident).

Basically, it's robbery. The Iraqi government is being bled dry by being forced to pay bribes to American soldiers and reconstruction agents every time they apply for a grant or sign a contract, and so are the funds that we, the taxpayers have provided. At least now someone is beginning to document it. But while it's going on, the efforts are futile, like bailing out a ship with a leaking bucket. Like, let's face it, giving aid to African governments.

As for the Iraqi people being betrayed, I don't see how the people of any of the coalition countries are betraying anyone, when significant majorities in every country other than the US were opposed to the war. 90% in Spain, for example. No government other than the US government had a democratic mandate to invade! Thus no people other than the Americans can bear any responsibility. This was done against our expressed wishes, everywhere else. What betrayal is that?

If anyone has been betrayed, it is the people of Europe. A withdrawal is the only way to right that wrong.

What would constitute 'victory' in Iraq anyway? Victory to the point where we could withdraw and everyone would be satisfied? The establishment of an unpopular puppet government that keeps the oil to the US coming and would collapse in no time without massive western monetary support?

Hmmmm... well, I guess that works just fine in Saudi Arabia. Lord knows that's a world benchmark of democracy, and no terrorists have been known to come out of there. :mp5:

That's what the US gets for killing an Italian citizen and illegaly kidnapping people within Italy's borders. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/06/30/security.italy.kidnap/)

Now the situation around the shooting of the Italian citizen has been hashed out in my mind. It is clear what happened. It was an accident. As far as the kidnapping, well there is alot about that that none of us know about or ever will. But to say thats what the US gets. Shows your colors as always. Degrading what you say by partially veiled anti-Americanism wont get your point heard.

If the intention of the Al Qaeda and their ilk is the establishment of a religious/political rule of a country, then naturally anyone who got in the way of Afghanistan and Iraq is pissing them off. Those were their two best chances of getting something going.

If the objective of Al Qaeda et al. is to destroy civilizations that they don't like, then there's a long list of godless western countries - and pulling out of Iraq or any other appeasement will make no difference. These people just plain hate us. What's so hard to understand? Deliberately targeting thousands of innocents doesn't show you that? Their statements of intent aren't sufficient?

Al Qaeda no longer exists. For the last couple of years, it has been a brand name. The people adopting it now have nothing to do with the original founders and their agenda.

Italy to pull troops out of Iraq
Friday, July 8, 2005 Updated at 12:56 PM EDT
Associated Press

Gleneagles, Scotland — Italy plans to begin withdrawing some of its troops from Iraq in September, Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Friday.
The pullout date had been discussed long in advance -- a pullout date of "September 2005" was announced in March 2005, as a matter of fact.
It's odd that the press would present it as "news" right now. Unless the journalists want to "create an effect" (...outrage sells!).

Berlusconi calls Bush over Iraq pullout plans
Italy to start pullout in September,
further eroding U.S.-led coalition
The Associated Press
Updated: 11:41 a.m. ET March 16, 2005
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7193188/

So it's old news, and nothing to debate about.

Now the situation around the shooting of the Italian citizen has been hashed out in my mind. It is clear what happened. It was an accident. As far as the kidnapping, well there is alot about that that none of us know about or ever will. But to say thats what the US gets. Shows your colors as always. Degrading what you say by partially veiled anti-Americanism wont get your point heard.
Your one of those liberal conspiracy people arn't you? :rolleyes:

What would constitute 'victory' in Iraq anyway? Victory to the point where we could withdraw and everyone would be satisfied? The establishment of an unpopular puppet government that keeps the oil to the US coming and would collapse in no time without massive western monetary support?

Hmmmm... well, I guess that works just fine in Saudi Arabia. Lord knows that's a world benchmark of democracy, and no terrorists have been known to come out of there. :mp5:
How about the establishment of a democratic government that provides security and services to it's people while respecting human rights? Does that sound good to you?

Al Qaeda no longer exists. For the last couple of years, it has been a brand name. The people adopting it now have nothing to do with the original founders and their agenda.

Yes, it appears so. The disagreement is with an ideology and the people who spread it by violence, typified by Al Qaeda. New groups morph and come up with more cool religious names. We need to come up with a term, or better yet an acronym, that can identify these asshats.

Acronyms for violent fundamentalist Moslem ideologs who want to destroy western society, anyone?

Now the situation around the shooting of the Italian citizen has been hashed out in my mind. It is clear what happened. It was an accident. As far as the kidnapping, well there is alot about that that none of us know about or ever will. But to say thats what the US gets. Shows your colors as always. Degrading what you say by partially veiled anti-Americanism wont get your point heard.

*yawn*

Define "anti-Americanism," please. Your lot uses that expression so often, that it's quite lost its meaning by now.

No, we have to stay in Iraq until the security situation is stable and the Iraqi government can provide services to the citizens who elected them.
Here is to a nice and prosperous 2023!

Al Qaeda no longer exists. For the last couple of years, it has been a brand name. The people adopting it now have nothing to do with the original founders and their agenda.

Zarqawi claims to have the bin Laden rubber-stamp. In any case, newcomers are newcomers, but equally dangerous.

That's what the US gets for killing an Italian citizen and illegaly kidnapping people within Italy's borders. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/06/30/security.italy.kidnap/)

Thanks for the link, Fass. Aids to the memory are always valuable.

They are a bunch of cowards for leaving Iraq.

They are a bunch of cowards for leaving Iraq.

Says someone on the Internet. :rolleyes:

Says someone on the Internet. :rolleyes:
Like you care?

Like you care?

Care about what? The irony of your post? No, not really, but, you see, this is a discussion forum - people will comment on things you say, and point out said irony.

Been on the cards ever since that reporter got shot at by the US. Anti-warfeelings have been high in Italy
Was in place before then.

Acronyms for violent fundamentalist Moslem ideologs who want to destroy western society, anyone?

VFMIWWTDWS, or maybe just ASSHAT: Angry Stupid Sentience Hating Arab Terrorists?

Parthini']VFMIWWTDWS, or maybe just ASSHAT: Angry Stupid Sentience Hating Arab Terrorists?
ohhhhh, that's a good one.

Yeah well, its not like they have been much at fighting since the Roman Empire fell, I feel no great surprise.
Great job. Excellent comment. Keep up the good work. :rolleyes:

http://images.barnesandnoble.com/images/4870000/4871262.gif

Apart from that there always was an exit date like that for Italy, as was pointed out before,
This isn't much of a surprise. The US didn't exactly treat Italy like an ally, more like a tool, a follower.
The Italians always were against the war, then it went as badly as it did, the US turned out not to have any idea what to do next, then they shot (!) an Italian government employee while firing (!) at a just released hostage.
And then they refused to even acknowledge they had done anything wrong. Ooops, won't happen again? You're damn right it won't.
That really pissed me off: That cynicism with which that was excused.

The Italians are right to leave.

Apart from that there always was an exit date like that for Italy, as was pointed out before,
This isn't much of a surprise. The US didn't exactly treat Italy like an ally, more like a tool, a follower.
The Italians always were against the war, then it went as badly as it did, the US turned out not to have any idea what to do next, then they shot (!) an Italian government employee while firing (!) at a just released hostage.
And then they refused to even acknowledge they had done anything wrong. Ooops, won't happen again? You're damn right it won't.
That really pissed me off: That cynicism with which that was excused.

The Italians are right to leave.

The Italian decision to leave should be based on whether or not the Italian military presence helps stabilise Iraq and promote the universal values and necessary institutions that the overwhelming majority of people in Iraq and the rest of the world wish to see. It should not be based on nationalist pride.

How about the establishment of a democratic government that provides security and services to it's people while respecting human rights? Does that sound good to you?when are we going to have that in the US again?

we cant claim taht kind of "victory" in Iraq...if we dont have it at home.

The Italian Army is coming home because they are soon to be replaced by the Iraqi 9th National (Home guard as they are known locally) Guard Division. It has been common knowledge for a long time now Iraqis were first going to replace the allies to the US to lessen their dissent in the home countries.

This isnt a victory or defeat of any of the idealogies you retards are showing on this thread.

Also all evidence and witness accounts of the shooting of the "jounalist" showed the car to be speeding before being fired upon, and in a nation of car bombers you get one warning before you are dead. If anything it was an accident that happens when you have several countries acting independently in close proximedity of each other. The reason for the " " around journalist was because the person in question was more of a radical propagandist then a real journalist, she hated americans and their war to be begin with, so she will make up facts as she sees fit in her small delusional mind. Just as with any terror attack americans with small dellusional minds believe its muslims right away without any evidence of the fact.

Watching both sides go at it is kinda fun really, both sides are delusional and deserve to be killed. As a muslim, Do i feel sorry for the brits? eh maybe...but that is what happens in warfare, that is what happens when youre under assault. Do i feel sorry for the Iraqis? no that had it coming to them as well. Do i have the mental capacity to understand the difference between Americans killing civilians and Al quada killing them? yes i do.

I do not feel sorry for the people that continue to bury your heads in the sand and pretend there isnt a war going on.

when are we going to have that in the US again?

we cant claim taht kind of "victory" in Iraq...if we dont have it at home.

This is the dumbest comment I have ever heard. Come live in Syria for a while little boy, then you will know what it really is like to live without those things. Seriously sometimes i hope democracy fails in your country, just so you can have a taste of what it really is like and just how good you actually have it.

Yeah, let's get all the western troops out of Iraq so that the country can fall completely into chaos and be turned into a no-man's-land of rival warlords like Afghanistan after the Soviets left. Clearly that's the best plan of action.

You know what we can employ the time old Copyrighted American method of putting a brutal dictator in with secret american funding and weapons thats how we got saddaam wasnt it I mean he worked for awhile untill he ceased to be our puppet and devolped free will? I tell you what lets skip that stage and make Iraq a part of America governed by Dictator GWB This time we wont have to make a middle man.

This is the dumbest comment I have ever heard. Come live in Syria for a while little boy, then you will know what it really is like to live without those things. Seriously sometimes i hope democracy fails in your country, just so you can have a taste of what it really is like and just how good you actually have it.

It already has failed how do you think bush got into office.

Seriously sometimes i hope democracy fails in your country.stop hoping...It has failed me alreadyCome live in Syria for a while little boy.I m not your little boy.
Go try your pedophile Gay fantasies somewhere else.

Everyday you americans show you arnt worthy of what you have by your illogical comments. You are seriously out of touch with what is really is like for most everybody here in the middle east. if you lived even 24 hours out here you would be begging to go back to your air conditioning and having the time and freedom to bicker about totally pointless shit like you do now.

Just another example of the statement that people will always take advantage of what has been given to them for free. You will only respect and value it after you lost it. And you deserve to lose it.

The Italian Army is coming home because they are soon to be replaced by the Iraqi 9th National (Home guard as they are known locally) Guard Division. It has been common knowledge for a long time now Iraqis were first going to replace the allies to the US to lessen their dissent in the home countries.
{snip}

More or less my take on it all. Near the beginning, when it was most needed, Italy made a *modest* contribution to US efforts in Iraq. They never signed on for "the duration," nor did they offer us a blank check. And they did not mislead us into thinking that their support would be anything more than limited.
Now they are arraigning for a carefull, slow, pullout at a time that will not cause the US efforts any real harm. The US should thank them & get on with it. What is the big deal?

Everyday you americans show you arnt worthy of what you have by your illogical comments. You are seriously out of touch with what is really is like for most everybody here in the middle east. if you lived even 24 hours out here you would be begging to go back to your air conditioning and having the time and freedom to bicker about totally pointless shit like you do now.

Just another example of the statement that people will always take advantage of what has been given to them for free. You will only respect and value it after you lost it. And you deserve to lose it.

I dismiss your statement as ignorant crap. Yo pass judgement on every one in a single country How can you do this do you know all 260 million personally? Arent worthy and i suposse your people are you arrogant hypocrit. And you claim us to bicker about pointless shit yet your all for jumping on board the argument. And just for the record we were disscussing ITALY asshole.

Everyday you americans show you arnt worthy of what you have by your illogical comments. You are seriously out of touch with what is really is like for most everybody here in the middle east. if you lived even 24 hours out here you would be begging to go back to your air conditioning.
...
Just another example of the statement that people will always take advantage of what has been given to them for free.freedom was not given it to us for free...

we earned freedom in 1776 with our blood.

BTW don't you have Air conditioning in Damazcus?

freedom was not given it to us for free...

we earned freedom in 1776 with our blood.

BTW don't you have Air conditioning in Damazcus?

And what have you done since 1776? What have you personally done to prove yourself worthy of this great gift called liberty? Like Gulf Republics said, you don't know how good you have it. These last couple of generations are so soft, it's fucking depressing.

And what have you done since 1776? What have you personally done to prove yourself worthy of this great gift called liberty? Like Gulf Republics said, you don't know how good you have it. These last couple of generations are so soft, it's fucking depressing.

Once again i dismiss your statement as ignorant crap. ITs one thing to critisize our government and their actions or even indivduial AMericans but to make a sweeping statemnet about 260 million people is just plain stupid. How can you possibly believe yourself justified to pass judgement on us all when you dont even know our names.

And what have you done since 1776? I was not there in 1776...so I have done nothing...but Im always ready take arms agains the enemies of freedom and Democracy.

If I was there in the American revolution...
I would scream "no taxes without representation"...and fight to the death.

If a foreign power comes to the US and takes over...I would join the resistance.

Gramnonia & GulfStates, (your turn to answer your own Question) what have you done for freedom...in Syria or whatever you are from.

What have you personally done to prove yourself worthy of freedom ???

Once again i dismiss your statement as ignorant crap. ITs one thing to critisize our government and their actions or even indivduial AMericans but to make a sweeping statemnet about 260 million people is just plain stupid. How can you possibly believe yourself justified to pass judgement on us all when you dont even know our names.

Either you're a fool, or you're using an underhanded rhetorical trick. Obviously it's impossible for me to learn the names of all 260 million Americans. Does that keep me from ever commenting on America as a whole? I think not.

Have you ever heard of a generalization? It's not a dirty word, you know. When I say, "On average, men are taller than women," are you going to attack me for not learning the names of every person on this planet before I go and make sweeping generalizations like that?

Either you're a fool, or you're using an underhanded rhetorical trick. Obviously it's impossible for me to learn the names of all 260 million Americans. Does that keep me from ever commenting on America as a whole? I think not.

Have you ever heard of a generalization? It's not a dirty word, you know. When I say, "On average, men are taller than women," are you going to attack me for not learning the names of every person on this planet before I go and make sweeping generalizations like that?

Your a moron your example sucks. Its a totaly different situation your not passing judgement when you say on average men are taller than woman its a tottaly different type of statement. And your the one using dirty tricks to generalize a people like you did is called predijuce. Which is wrong in every possible situation you arrogant fool.

Because you dont know each an every one of us personally it does keep you from making such a generalization because how can you know it applys to all of us if you dont have such knowlegde it is impossible. And its impossible to gather such data therefore your argument is one of ignorance and irrationality.

AHH BAD PRESS BAD PRESS RUN RUN!!!
Cowards.... :rolleyes:

Your a moron your example sucks. Its a totaly different situation your not passing judgement when you say on average men are taller than woman its a tottaly different type of statement. And your the one using dirty tricks to generalize a people like you did is called predijuce. Which is wrong in every possible situation you arrogant fool.

Because you dont know each an every one of us personally it does keep you from making such a generalization because how can you know it applys to all of us if you dont have such knowlegde it is impossible. And its impossible to gather such data therefore your argument is one of ignorance and irrationality.

Okay, so we've settled it: you're a fool. Nonetheless, I shall indulge you. What if we change my example to be, "By and large, Americans have no tolerance anymore for heavy casualties in war" Which is true, and don't even try to argue this. Now, there may be many Americans out there who agree that the 1000 deaths in Iraq so far is dwarfed by the casualties in other American conflics, and the US has paid a light price so far for its war in Iraq. Those particular individuals notwithstanding, it's generally true that Americans intensely dislike seeing the body bags coming home on their evening news.

Prejudice? Just what the hell are you talking about?!

Okay, so we've settled it: you're a fool. Nonetheless, I shall indulge you. What if we change my example to be, "By and large, Americans have no tolerance anymore for heavy casualties in war" Which is true, and don't even try to argue this. Now, there may be many Americans out there who agree that the 1000 deaths in Iraq so far is dwarfed by the casualties in other American conflics, and the US has paid a light price so far for its war in Iraq. Those particular individuals notwithstanding, it's generally true that Americans intensely dislike seeing the body bags coming home on their evening news.

Prejudice? Just what the hell are you talking about?!

Im A fool i use dirty tricks. Are you serouis What data do you have to back up your argument so you veer off topic and talk about Iraq which had fucking nothing to do with what were talking about. Have you even met any Americans if so how many do you know? How could you possibly assume to be right on this one. Your Arrogance is astounding.

Any such generalizations you have made is impossible and illogical. You say Most americans have little tolerance for cassualties in war this is bullshit wide spread propagandus bullshit straight from the mouths of terrorists that your repeating. They hope this is true this is not. Americans tolerance for casualties in a war will go up and down depending on the believed importance of the war this is true for any nation.

I was not there in 1776...so I have done nothing...but Im always ready take arms agains the enemies of freedom and Democracy.

If I was there in the American revolution...
I would scream "no taxes without representation"...and fight to the death.

If a foreign power comes to the US and takes over...I would join the resistance.

Gramnonia & GulfStates, (your turn to answer your own Question) what have you done for freedom...in Syria or whatever you are from.

What have you personally done to prove yourself worthy of freedom ???

I don't go around saying "we" earned freedom, when what I actually mean is my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather earned freedom for me, and I've just been able to benefit from that. Of course I'd join up and fight an occupying enemy. If we went to war, and it was serious, I'd volunteer. I wouldn't wait for conscription to go into effect, I'd go down to the recruitment office that very day and enlist. Is that enough for you, OceanDrive?

CelticUnion, are you American? You type like someone who learned English as his second language.

CelticUnion, are you American? You type like someone who learned English as his second language.

I type quickly.

dp

Of course when you say Americans have a low tolerance for casualties your going to mention Veitnam its what most people would do i can counter this before you even say this. When we fought in Veitnam it wasnt our war no one believed their was really a threat to our country, or at least not enough to gather widespread support, For a war such as world war 2 this would be different if an enemy were to arise that our people deemed as a threat we would stop at nothing to defend ourselves the same would be true of any European nations. We are no more or less Tolerant of casualties than any other country would be. look at all the bitcing going on about Europeans in Iraq they dont think its their war and rightfully so. this is how most countries think this is how Americas think. any other ideas are ridiculous and a false hope for AQ.

I type quickly.
I was just going to tell you that. Sometimes the best arguement conservatives will have is nipicking through posts picking out grammatical errors. It's only right, though. Just as friendly advice, it's better to leave a well constructed and punctuated response than a fast one. :)

I was just going to tell you that. Sometimes the best arguement conservatives will have is nipicking through posts picking out grammatical errors. It's only right, though. Just as friendly advice, it's better to leave a well constructed and punctuated response than a fast one. :)

Thats fine because i am not conserivitave i am actually against the war in Iraq however i thinks its stupid to make a statement that we are all lazy and self absorbed which of course is ridicuosly presumptuios.

I don't go around saying "we" earned freedom, when what I actually mean is my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather earned freedom for me...the Syrian(Gulf States) said that freedom was given to us free...

but he is wrong...we earned that freedom with blood (when I say "we"..I mean we Americans...and since it happened in 1776 I had no way to participate)

but If you Syrian guys (or whatever you are from) feel that there is no freedom in your Country...by all means you should fight for it...

I would figth to the death...if it was my country.

I was just going to tell you that. Sometimes the best arguement conservatives will have is nipicking through posts picking out grammatical errors. It's only right, though. Just as friendly advice, it's better to leave a well constructed and punctuated response than a fast one. :)

You wouldn't hand in a resume full of spelling and grammatical mistakes, would you? I think it's just a matter of common courtesy to make my replies as easily legible and clear as possible for everyone else on these boards. Also, I think it's one of those style and substance issues. If a girl dresses like a slut, people assume she's loose. If someone's got loose pants and chains, people assume he's a wannabe rapper. If you type poorly, I think that reveals something about you as a person. You may be a foreigner, you may be a shitty typist, you may be too lazy to fix your mistakes, or you may be drunk. ;)

Here in America its almost like we are not one country. The common thought changes depending on where you go i know more than a few states that would ceced from the union if they thought they could with out starting a civil war unfortunaley the federal goverment is to powerfull for that and even more unfortunaley its in the hands of a madman whom durring in his first run for election we said we didnt fucking want to judge all americans by the actions of this goverment is stupid and you should really check up on your facts before even attempting to. The supreme court who was apointed by this guys daddy voted him in even though the American people had vote more for Gore than him Gore was ahead by millions.

You wouldn't hand in a resume full of spelling and grammatical mistakes, would you? I think it's just a matter of common courtesy to make my replies as easily legible and clear as possible for everyone else on these boards. Also, I think it's one of those style and substance issues. If a girl dresses like a slut, people assume she's loose. If someone's got loose pants and chains, people assume he's a wannabe rapper. If you type poorly, I think that reveals something about you as a person. You may be a foreigner, you may be a shitty typist, you may be too lazy to fix your mistakes, or you may be drunk. ;)

Once again you veer off topic.

You wouldn't hand in a resume full of spelling and grammatical mistakes, would you? I think it's just a matter of common courtesy to make my replies as easily legible and clear as possible for everyone else on these boards. Also, I think it's one of those style and substance issues. If a girl dresses like a slut, people assume she's loose. If someone's got loose pants and chains, people assume he's a wannabe rapper. If you type poorly, I think that reveals something about you as a person. You may be a foreigner, you may be a shitty typist, you may be too lazy to fix your mistakes, or you may be drunk. ;)
Like last night, lol! At least I wasn't in General or else all respect for me would've been lost :eek:

Like last night, lol! At least I wasn't in General or else all respect for me would've been lost :eek:

Ah yes, the golden days of yore when everyone had respect for their peers on the General forum . . . wait. This belongs in the "Myths" thread. :D

You were drunk last night? Crazy coincidence, I was posting on here too when I was, um, "altered." It's for my glaucoma, I swear ;)

The Italian decision to leave should be based on whether or not the Italian military presence helps stabilise Iraq and promote the universal values and necessary institutions that the overwhelming majority of people in Iraq and the rest of the world wish to see. It should not be based on nationalist pride.
Well, I'm certainly not a nationalist, that must be said.
It is nonetheless foolish for the US to assume that its' "ideals" will carry enough weight to convince people when it acts like it has in this case.
And a decision of the Italians (or the Spanish, or anyone else for that matter), really has only political meaning, as the work there is pretty much exclusively done by US Forces anyways.

How about the establishment of a democratic government that provides security and services to it's people while respecting human rights? Does that sound good to you?

That sounds really good in theory but in practice it's turning into a real balls-up, because the government that might make the western powers happy might not be the government that the Iraqi people want. Human rights? We're really leading by example with such places as Abu Ghirab and Gitmo Bay.

If thats the reason we invade countries these days, then why aren't we invading the other 20 or so countries that aren't providing those things to its people? Could have something to do with the that those other countries aren't sitting on a huge wad of oil?

So do we have a mandate now to topple and artificially re-create any government that in our opinion isn't up to snuff and doesn't have the military capabilty of stopping us? Didn't the Europeans try that shit in the 17 and 1800's? How did that work out for them anyway?

You wouldn't hand in a resume full of spelling and grammatical mistakes, would you? casually posting on the forum...is not the same as writing a resume.

unless you expect me to give you a job :D

http://media.portland.indymedia.org/images/2004/07/292592.jpg

Italy has a millitary?... :eek: well i can understand them pulling out...there not very good are they..i mean...we defended malta with 3 ww1 dated planes against there airforce back in WW2...The italians are not warlike* people


*anymore (roman empire)

Italy to pull troops out of Iraq
Friday, July 8, 2005 Updated at 12:56 PM EDT
Associated Press

Gleneagles, Scotland — Italy plans to begin withdrawing some of its troops from Iraq in September, Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Friday.

Mr. Berlusconi, who was a strong supporter of President Bush on Iraq, sent 3,000 troops to the country after the ouster of Saddam Hussein to help rebuild the country.

© Copyright 2005 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc.
www.theglobeandmail.com

And out of those 3000, only 300 are being sent home? :eek:

when are we going to have that in the US again?

When have we lost it? Oh wait we haven't :rolleyes:

we cant claim taht kind of "victory" in Iraq...if we dont have it at home.

What don't we have at home?

The Italian Army is coming home because they are soon to be replaced by the Iraqi 9th National (Home guard as they are known locally) Guard Division. It has been common knowledge for a long time now Iraqis were first going to replace the allies to the US to lessen their dissent in the home countries.

This isnt a victory or defeat of any of the idealogies you retards are showing on this thread.

Thank you for pointing out the truth Gulf Republics. :)

I do not feel sorry for the people that continue to bury your heads in the sand and pretend there isnt a war going on.

Great line my Gulf Republics.

freedom was not given it to us for free...

we earned freedom in 1776 with our blood.

BTW don't you have Air conditioning in Damazcus?

Yes we did but remember what we were fighting against at the time? Anyone? Tyrany! Ironic isn't that we are still fighting this menace overseas. You'll never realized what you have until you lose it. Remember that OceanDrive2.

And what have you done since 1776? What have you personally done to prove yourself worthy of this great gift called liberty? Like Gulf Republics said, you don't know how good you have it. These last couple of generations are so soft, it's fucking depressing.

I can tell you that this American isn't soft. Your right that the last couple of generations have been soft. People don't realize just how many men and women have died to preserve their freedoms that they are using now to bash the Iraqi War, forgetting that they lived under a tyrant for 30+ years.

Its about time America wakes up and realizes that our very freedoms are at stake once again. If we lose, we'll lose everything.

Its about time America wakes up and realizes that our very freedoms are at stake once again. If we lose, we'll lose everything.
In case you forgot, serving in the U.S. military is not a prerequisite to enjoying America's freedoms.

And you sound exactly like Bush here, and that's not good. "Freedom is at stake." You're right, if we lose, we lose everything (except...you're not right) but who got us into this situation of uncertainty? Certainly not the peacemongers. Why are we fighting for freedoms abroad yet watching them become usurped right before our very eyes. America is turing into the very thing the Founding Fathers tried to avoid, and it's the "patriots" who are doing it. How did America become so screwed up?

BTW, I'm thinking about joining the Navy as a pilot, the same as my grandfather. I have plenty of relatives who have served honorably in the military, yet I OPPOSE WAR IN IRAQ!!!! ZOMGGGGG!!!!!

In case you forgot, serving in the U.S. military is not a prerequisite to enjoying America's freedoms.

Care to point out where I actually said that? I didn't say it so stop putting words that aren't there in my posts.

And you sound exactly like Bush here, and that's not good. "Freedom is at stake."

Why isn't it good? Our Freedoms are at stake. Its a known fact that our freedoms are at stake. Do you like having our freedoms at stake? I don't.

You're right, if we lose, we lose everything (except...you're not right) but who got us into this situation of uncertainty?

And why aren't I right? I guess you haven't paid attention at all to what the terrorists have been saying. Not surprising.

Certainly not the peacemongers. Why are we fighting for freedoms abroad yet watching them become usurped right before our very eyes.

And how is our freedoms being usurped here? I still have all of my freedoms so tell me what freedoms are being usurped?

America is turing into the very thing the Founding Fathers tried to avoid, and it's the "patriots" who are doing it. How did America become so screwed up?

And what are we becoming that our founding fathers tried to avoid?

BTW, I'm thinking about joining the Navy as a pilot, the same as my grandfather. I have plenty of relatives who have served honorably in the military, yet I OPPOSE WAR IN IRAQ!!!! ZOMGGGGG!!!!!

Glad your thinking about serving. I don't care if you are for or against. However, if you join and get shipped into a combat zone. Don't claim consciences objector then I'll have no choice but to call you a coward.

I love it when a thread keeps to the point

Yes we did but remember what we were fighting against at the time? Anyone? Tyrany! Ironic isn't ....YES!!! ironic indeed. ;)