NationStates Jolt Archive

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

That's just the thing --- It's very logical to me. Have I ever been "punished" for doing something I "bad"? No. Does it seem the least bit plausible for a "being" in outer space to be able to control absolutely everything, down to the finest detail? No.

These (among other) reasons are why I don't believe in a "god".

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

...well, i'm agnostic, not athiest, but does anybody mind if i field this one? i believe that if god exists, god created everything, god can do everything and god WANTED me to believe in it, i would. if i ever need faith for whatever reason, i'm sure something will happen to give me some. 'til then, i don't bother myself about it.

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.
Since there's no proof of a divine being's existence nor proof to the contrary, it is as "logical" to assume there is no God as it is to assume there is. It's a matter of faith, or a lack thereof.

As a side note, I consider myself Protestant/Agnostic

There may well be some sort of supernatural force or energy or something somewhere (but then it wouldn't really be supernatural, just something outwith the scope of our understanding at this time) but a rational, man-like God just strikes me as being totally preposterous.

The God of Juddahism, Christianity and Islam is just nonsense with no more credibility than the Greek Gods or the six-armed elephant men of Hinduism. Magic trees? The great flood? Turning people to salt? That idiocy with Job (as if an omiscient God would bother or even care with such triviality)? The nine-headed dragon of the Apocalypse?

Now I know that peeople try to pretend that that stuff is metaphorical now, but it was taken as fact at the time of its writing and to me it seems obvious the only reason that's changed now is because most people just aren't that dumb any more. Not in the civilised world, anyway.

I don't believe in any god because I have never seen anything happen, or experienced anything, that leads me to believe that there is a god. Quite simply, I have no reason to believe in a god, so I don't. I generally consider the idea of a god existing so unrealistic that I consider religion to be the most dangerous lie ever told. To me, it is an arcane attempt to explain our existence and was simultaneously used to strike fear into the common man in order to obtain obedience.

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

OK, you are starting from some false premises.

Atheism does not necessarily equal nihilism. Being an atheist does not necessarily mean that one believes there is no reason or purpose to life.

I'm sad to here you think "logic" is merely a word of escape. Logic is rather fundamental to critical thought and philosophy.

I do not believe in God because the existence of God is contrary to my experience and reason.

More specifically, although I have looked and mankind has looked for centuries there is no proof of God's existence -- either as an emperical matter or via pure logic.

The Bible is a shambles and provides no basis for belief in anything.

Most constructs of God are either logically impossible (i.e., self-contradictory or contradictory to emperical evidence) or not worth of belief (immoral, etc).

Given the available evidence, the only reasonable conclusion to me is that there is no God.

As to other supernatural or religious views of the world, the answer varies but generally follows along similar lines.

This may not be what you were looking for. Tough cheese.

Any questions?

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

People tend to believe in a God to fill a void of yearning or need. People need to have a will to exist. If life had no purpose, I doubt conscious beings would have a particularly wonderful time.

As for logic and evolution, logic is the core of the universe, it holds together the laws of physics, mathematics, everything that makes matter matter and energy energy. Ever consider that God is YOUR escape? I'd like to hear Christians explain why they believe in a God without the obvious misuse of the words "faith" and "Bible".

Believing in the absence of God does not necessarily mean a simultaneous embrace of no reason to live. The biological reason to live is to reproduce, as well as to acquire sustenance and other more immediate means to eventually secure the opportunity to reproduce one's genetic code to ensure the survival of their species. That is the only meaning of life I can possibly think makes sense.

Since most religions contradict themselves in their own teachings, and since all religions were founded by men, who wrote all scriptures and sayings that all religions hold dear, it can only be said that men themselves created religion. The idea that there might be a God is certainly something to speculate about, since it obviously provides great conversation and amusement. The point is, since we cannot prove the existence of God, nor negate the existence thereof, and since if there is a God, there would be no possible way to understand a perfect being, let alone comprehend Him, the matter should be completely dropped. If an issue can be debated on, it will always be.

Edited: Boonytopia made a good point that I think should be in all atheist/agnostic explanations. We might believe there is no God/no proof of God, but we still believe in leading a full, productive, healthy life, and most of us probably believe that we should leave others alone, respect opinions, and generally do what we feel to be good in this world, as it is the only world we will ever have. Anyways, good luck on the posts.

I'm an atheist. From what I see & what I read & what I understand, a supernatural higher being just makes no sense to me. It has no relevance to my life. Thousands of years ago, when we understood almost nothing of the world around us, I can see how things could be attributed to a higher power. I think now it's just unrealistic.

I don't believe there to be any proper evidence, to be honest. The vastly mutable nature of God in the Bible's also a bit off-putting. And all the crazy nonsense laws. They're a bit weird. There's also the whole relevancy issue to consider. Seriously, the rules of conduct were made for people several thousand years ago in the middle east.

I'm an atheist. From what I see & what I read & what I understand, a supernatural higher being just makes no sense to me. It has no relevance to my life. Thousands of years ago, when we understood almost nothing of the world around us, I can see how things could be attributed to a higher power. I think now it's just unrealistic.

My thoughts exactly.

My thoughts exactly.

Now you're stealing my thoughts. ;)

Now you're stealing my thoughts. ;)

Who said I didn't have that thought first, hmm?

...Dopplegangers...

*grabs bat*

Now you're stealing my thoughts. ;)

But the Budgerigars are stealing everybody's thoughts...

...and using their knowledge to pit us against each other...

...!...

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

Just to clarify, as an atheist, I don't believe that there's no reason to life. Far from it. I believe the meaning is; to enjoy your life, love your friends & family and leave the world a better place. Life is not pointless, it's a beautiful, joyous thing, but I don't feel at all threatened by the prospect that there is nothing more to it.

Atheism does not necessarily equal nihilism. Being an atheist does not necessarily mean that one believes there is no reason or purpose to life.

I'm sad to here you think "logic" is merely a word of escape. Logic is rather fundamental to critical thought and philosophy.

Most constructs of God are either logically impossible (i.e., self-contradictory or contradictory to emperical evidence) or not worth of belief (immoral, etc).


It seems that in recent times definitions hav been blurred to suit needs, at most points (in which I have spoken personally to atheists) they do the same and blend several beliefs into one (which is primarily what I do as well in being a christian with a more scientific system).

Primarily I see logic as fundamental but I was expecting much more short, non-explanatory things such as "its logical" which is not an answer worthy of reading to me, along with (in some form) "evolution says so". I'm sorry that it seemed as such, but it is not.

Immorality is not very much preached in the Bible or by God, yes there are some examples of immoal things by the standards of today (IE: stoning women if they speak to you while they are "on their periods".
But for the most part, what is taught in the bible most speficially is to treat your neighbor as yourself and to extend a kind hand towards everyone regardless if they hurt you before. Which I do not exasctly interpret as immoral.

Still I can understand your reasoning and I appreciate everyone's explanations dearly.

There are far too many reasons not to believe in God. I think they key point is that I didn't need to have it proved to me that he didn't exist- I needed proof that he did, and no one offered any decent evidence.

We can argue from the view that the default position is "belief in God, unless proven false", but it's a waste of time. I have plenty of those arguments in case people try to convert me to theism (and if you wanted them I could list them, but it would take up lots of time and board space), but the onus will always lie on the believer.

If I tried to convince you that the keyboard in front of you wasn't really there, you'd ask me for proof and I'd have to give it, because you and others can see and feel it. However, if I told you that your room was filled with invisible, intangiable bunnies, you'd also have to ask me to prove it. It wouldn't make sense for my reply to be "Well, prove to me that there isn't". To me, God is on the same level as the bunnies. If there was ever a decent reason to believe, then I would. Until that day, the default position is "get on with life".

Who said I didn't have that thought first, hmm?

...Dopplegangers...

*grabs bat*

Haha, I'm safe. Your bat can't reach across the Pacific.

Haha, I'm safe. Your bat can't reach across the Pacific.

Maybe so, but my bat can reach across the Pacific!!

*throws bat*

I don't believe there to be any proper evidence, to be honest. The vastly mutable nature of God in the Bible's also a bit off-putting. And all the crazy nonsense laws. They're a bit weird. There's also the whole relevancy issue to consider. Seriously, the rules of conduct were made for people several thousand years ago in the middle east.

I have to personally thank you. Your explanation is exactly the type I am looking for, not hostile and off-putting (such as one I read slightly before yours) yours gives me reasons and I can feel that you do feel these exact emotions and thoughts. Your words are not a scientific explanation but something that comes only from the heart. You are someone rare and special and I thank you.

Maybe so, but my bat can reach across the Pacific!!

*throws bat*

You throw like a girl. I'll take my chances.

Why not God?

I dont have to defend a side where the oponent has no offence.

First, you tell me why, and then I'll tell you why not.

It's scientific method. Bullshit untill proven true.

Besides, it's the natural state of any human to hope in despairation that there is some higher power - but that hope is self-deceit and weakness.

You throw like a girl. I'll take my chances.

I may throw like a girl... But, I don't throw like a girl, and that's all that matters!

>.>

Just to clarify, as an atheist, I don't believe that there's no reason to life. Far from it. I believe the meaning is; to enjoy your life, love your friends & family and leave the world a better place. Life is not pointless, it's a beautiful, joyous thing, but I don't feel at all threatened by the prospect that there is nothing more to it.

Thank you for a real explanation from your heart, not from scientific terms, as many are using.
You are also someone I have to thank for your opinion.

I have to personally thank you. Your explanation is exactly the type I am looking for, not hostile and off-putting (such as one I read slightly before yours) yours gives me reasons and I can feel that you do feel these exact emotions and thoughts. Your words are not a scientific explanation but something that comes only from the heart. You are someone rare and special and I thank you.
Based on your first post, a person's initial reaction would be to go into an agressive mode, since you seemed to be putting blind faith over logic.

Perhaps why you're not getting the desired replys.

Thank you for a real explanation from your heart, not from scientific terms, as many are using.
You are also someone I have to thank for your opinion.
I am curious as to why you are so unfriendly to science and scientific method.
It's never been wrong in the past. Is there a reason why you're against it?

Thank you for a real explanation from your heart, not from scientific terms, as many are using.
You are also someone I have to thank for your opinion.

You're welcome.

Why not God?

I dont have to defend a side where the oponent has no offence.

First, you tell me why, and then I'll tell you why not.

It's scientific method. Bullshit untill proven true.

Besides, it's the natural state of any human to hope in despairation that there is some higher power - but that hope is self-deceit and weakness.

Even though I wish for opinion there is no need to call anyone else's beliefs "Bullshit" or to call everyone who thinks there is a greater power out there "weak" and filled with "self-deceit".

My understanding is that everything is connected somehow, someway. That is why we feel emotions for others. Why we express feelings, why we believe things to be immoral or not.

Why? Restating a question is no way to answer but I will.

This is the only true feeling that can explain in words: When I sit in the peacefulness of true silence, surrounded by nature and nothing else I can only feel that we are connected and originally generated from a greater, perfect existance. I cannot look at this beauty and see random chance in it. I cannot understand luck-of-the-draw when I watch people, when I feel the world around me. This is my feeling. Faith is there, morality in the bible is there, but most feeling comes from the understanding of connection and love.

Why believe in no God? A few reasons have already been put forward, but I believe that the idea of God as an extra-planar, personal deity has too much of a humanistic bent to it. The idea of God the father seems far too human to be supernatural; it almost seems to scream "Anthropomorphic Personification" at me. That God has been explained as an effectively bigger and stronger version of ourselves points a firm finger at human invention as the origin of its conception.

Ultimately, the reason I struggle with the personal God is that someone could very well have simply just created the notion, filled in the blanks as he went along and designed an image of a big man in the sky with very little effort or imagination. Curiously enough, this is the only model that provides fulfilment of the "Paradise Afterlife" concept, but that's another issue. I think that if God did exist, then either He would be of a form that no human could ever directly but individually interact with or He would be constrained by the physical laws of his own plane of existence. Both of these inevitably counteract the personal, omnipotent God theory.

But, then again, I'm still thinking it through.

Based on your first post, a person's initial reaction would be to go into an agressive mode, since you seemed to be putting blind faith over logic.

Perhaps why you're not getting the desired replys.

And yet still when you called everyone's belief in God or divinty "bullshit" and weak-mindedness and self-deceit I remained steadfast in a non-aggresive emotion.

Some people do not hold opinions different from their own lightly, much like yourself, as in the aforementioned indirect name-calling.

I do hold your opinion dear and worthy of reading, regardless of anger. Excuse any agression you may interpret from my writing as I am slightly offended for everyone by your words, but I still wish to understand your reasoning.

I try and understand other people's reasoning and am open to other's opinions in example this thread. I want to know why as it is never really explained to me in a real way and I do not hold blind-faith as a good thought-process otherwise I would not even question, but I would rather insult those who believe different than me by telling them they are morons and that their ideas of life and existance are not truth but rather "shit".

I am curious as to why you are so unfriendly to science and scientific method.
It's never been wrong in the past. Is there a reason why you're against it?

Has it really never been wrong? Is science infallible?

In its early years, science proclaimed only four elements (earth, fire, etc) a "wrong" as it were. There are many others, but let us stray away from this.

The reason I do not want scientific explanations for every belief and reason is that it is not enough for me. If I am given an equation that explains why we are all random chances with genes embedded into us telling us to live purely for reproductive proposes then I will not accept it.

What science does not do is provide a deeply human explanation, something that only emotion can drive. It does not tell me what it feels like when it thinks that everything is random. It does not explain to me why it thinks the way it does. Science will give me numbers, give me bones, and gives me years, not emotion, not humanity.

Even though I may not wish for aggresion to be used, it is better than the use of just saying "evolution, as shown through the steady mutations through chimp bones into the early neanderthal, proves that God could not have created everything in just 7 days." Yes it is very, very good proof, something that the bible has been forced to be mocked by, but it will not tell me what it thinks of the human spirit or what it believes life is for, if anything but to breed. That is why I don't want science, it is cold and without life. It has no emotion and it shows no care towards anything else. Humans do. Humans can tell me what happiness feels like. They can tell me how terrible it is when tragedy strikes, 9/11 for example. To science it is nothing but a mass death, no emotion, just statistics. I can ramble on and on, but my main point is that humans can tell me emotion and thought, science can tell me facts and evidence and at this moment I need emotion and thought.

and now I must stop before I become enraged. This is a conversation of little consequence and yet already I read my posts and feel hate.

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.
because nothing exists in the first place, of course! :p
and i'm a nihilist, not an atheist. well, i suppose you could call me an atheist then...

Believing in the absence of God does not necessarily mean a simultaneous embrace of no reason to live. The biological reason to live is to reproduce, as well as to acquire sustenance and other more immediate means to eventually secure the opportunity to reproduce one's genetic code to ensure the survival of their species. That is the only meaning of life I can possibly think makes sense.

Dude, if that is the only meaning of life, then why live? Biology is not some all powerful force telling you what to do, and besides to live because instinct tells you to is sort of like being a robot or ant as they follow their incoded instincts without question. The biological reason to live is no reason to live, if that is what life is all about, it is a life that truly has no purpose. I mean holy man in the sky or no holy man in the sky, we all have to make up some excuse to live.

I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such.

This is a excellent question The Twilight Chair. I would like to begin by saying that there is no way to prove whether there is or isn't a god, goddess, series of gods. So, with that I have never seen any evidence produced to make me beleave there is any dieties.

As a side note: What I do know is I have seen some groups who know no bounds and will do anything to make one beleave in thier diety, which is really annoying and a further turn off to those groups.


Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

Is having no reason to life a really bad thing? I live happily live my life with the thought that there is no real reason why we are here. I don't mind that my achevements will never be acknowledged on a grand cosmic scale, or even acknowledged at all. What I do know is that I am content with what I have accomplished. I have never needed the threat of hell, or promice of heaven, or the theory of karma to do good deeds. Just the look on someones face when you help them out with a problem is worth the effort.

Anyhow, I hope this answers your questions.

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

I want to know to,

Where do you put your trust when all of your friends let you down?

Who do yuo talk to to let your feelings out?

What makes you feel better when everything goes wrong or things that you know or love have left you i the dust?

What makes the feeling of a funeral sad and happy at the same time?

I want to know.

Where do you put your trust when all of your friends let you down?
Myself.
Who do yuo talk to to let your feelings out?
My friends.
What makes you feel better when everything goes wrong or things that you know or love have left you i the dust?
The fact that I get one try at life, and that's it. No point in wasting time feeling sorry for myself when I could be out doing stuff instead.
What makes the feeling of a funeral sad and happy at the same time?
The space lizards and their mind-control satellites.

There are far too many reasons not to believe in God. I think they key point is that I didn't need to have it proved to me that he didn't exist- I needed proof that he did, and no one offered any decent evidence.

We can argue from the view that the default position is "belief in God, unless proven false", but it's a waste of time. I have plenty of those arguments in case people try to convert me to theism (and if you wanted them I could list them, but it would take up lots of time and board space), but the onus will always lie on the believer.

If I tried to convince you that the keyboard in front of you wasn't really there, you'd ask me for proof and I'd have to give it, because you and others can see and feel it. However, if I told you that your room was filled with invisible, intangiable bunnies, you'd also have to ask me to prove it. It wouldn't make sense for my reply to be "Well, prove to me that there isn't". To me, God is on the same level as the bunnies. If there was ever a decent reason to believe, then I would. Until that day, the default position is "get on with life".

So your saying, that everything just appeared on earth? This in of itself is barbaric, I mean, just taken at it's core, the world is begging for the existence of a higher being. Science itself gives more proof to one than against it. Let's take the age old stance of the big bang against creationism...Science's own fundemental laws state that "matter can not be created nor destroyed." has stated in the law of conservation of mass, now, the "big bang" theory suggests the universe was created by a small, dense, compact ball of MASS..that exploded throwing everything into psuedo gravity created by the explosion. Now, take this and apply it to their own laws, Science itself is making a case against itself, because even for their so called "theory" to work their would have to be a being above the constraints of science.

Has it really never been wrong? Is science infallible?

In its early years, science proclaimed only four elements (earth, fire, etc) a "wrong" as it were. There are many others, but let us stray away from this.

The reason I do not want scientific explanations for every belief and reason is that it is not enough for me. If I am given an equation that explains why we are all random chances with genes embedded into us telling us to live purely for reproductive proposes then I will not accept it.

What science does not do is provide a deeply human explanation, something that only emotion can drive. It does not tell me what it feels like when it thinks that everything is random. It does not explain to me why it thinks the way it does. Science will give me numbers, give me bones, and gives me years, not emotion, not humanity.

Even though I may not wish for aggresion to be used, it is better than the use of just saying "evolution, as shown through the steady mutations through chimp bones into the early neanderthal, proves that God could not have created everything in just 7 days." Yes it is very, very good proof, something that the bible has been forced to be mocked by, but it will not tell me what it thinks of the human spirit or what it believes life is for, if anything but to breed. That is why I don't want science, it is cold and without life. It has no emotion and it shows no care towards anything else. Humans do. Humans can tell me what happiness feels like. They can tell me how terrible it is when tragedy strikes, 9/11 for example. To science it is nothing but a mass death, no emotion, just statistics. I can ramble on and on, but my main point is that humans can tell me emotion and thought, science can tell me facts and evidence and at this moment I need emotion and thought.

Elemental theory was the science of the time. It was not what we have today, as we can determine the molecular make-up of particles, and even create larger types of atoms (uununquadium sp?).

Perhaps evolution is truth. You said yourself you cannot accept it... you are closed minded. I say this in a tone of friendship, though I do not know you. I know you must have been angry at some posts, but people perfectly have a right to say what they think. There were no personal attacks on you, so you have no right to be angry at all. If God were proven to be true, I'd accept it. I'm open minded. The reason I believe there may or may not be a God is because it's just not reasonable by any human explanation. No religion definitively explains without any contradictions or questions the fundamental nature of the universe. And it's just not good enough for me.

I used to be of an atheist opinion, but I realized that although religions could be shown to be contradictory, and held on a personal level to be false, the nature of whether or not there may be a God cannot be disproven nor proven by human means.

About human spirit, I don't think one exists. I think we are the most superior species in the world, we are the only species fully conscious as far as our concepts are concerned, with room to continue to expand our knowledge, but certain primates have shown the ability to speak in sign-language, notably a gorilla in the United States. It was able to express feelings, including sadness.

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.
im an atheist because no religion makes sense. none of it is TRUE, in that every last one of them contains things in them that are inconsistantly false. (for example the new testament says that jesus will return during the lives of those who wrote it) im not one to pick and choose "truths". either its all true or none of it is. im not going to believe in only "the important words of god".

could there have been a being that started the universe? i suppose so. but obviously "he" either has ceased to exist or has no care one way or the other what we do here on earth. if he cant be bothered to come right out and tell us what he wants from us, then i certainly am not going to pretend that he did so.

so im an atheist.

To simply put why I am an atheist, I believe that its human nature to not want to be alone...to always think that someone more powerfull then yourself is watching over you and taking care of you. And this is what I believe god is to many people, something to give them comfort.

I believe in evolution and that everything in this universe can be explained through a science, obviously we as a species have not developed to the point were we can understand everything in the universe...heck, most of the time we cant understand our own world or even eachother.

In my opinion, people who don't believe in some higher being tend to simply just ask "why" less often.

I mean, I'd say I'm agnositc, but the reason I don't necessarily believe in a God is partially because I've never really seen any evidence to show there is a God. I've also not seen any evidence that there is not a God, so I don't necessarily believe that there isn't, however, to me, the question of whether there is or is not a God simply just isn't important to me.

I mean...the question of "Why do you believe in no God?" is answered the exact same reason as "Why do you believe in a God?"

I just don't ask myself either question...because it's not important to me that I have an answer, really...I don't need that sort reassurance, I don't need a reason for living, really. I'm not suicidal...I just don't question whether or not there is a reason for me to be here, because honestly, I don't feel I need a reason.

Christians tend to not understand this. They need their God, they need to know there's a reason. That's fine. And in fact, if I needed a reason, if knowing that there is a God was something important to me, I'd probably take up a religion.

Fact of the matter is, it's something that just never really has bothered me, and is simply unimportant to me.

I believe in God because it provides an explanation for why the universe exists. Look at the variety and complexity of life on Earth: what the wonderous system of evolution created is beyond the scope of a human mind and so I feel there had to be a creator of evolution in order for it to work so well. The accomplishments of man as the only truly intelligent life on Earth also reinforce this, and the very fact that man could develop the concept of religion is proof to me that we seek something higher than ourselves.

God also gives me greater purpose to my life, and motivates me to do good so that suffering and evil can be eliminated from the Earth. I have the hope of an afterlife where I can be truly happy and free from human concerns living with a being of true, boundless love. It is that feeling of love, of higher purpose, that motivates me.

Lastly, religion provides me with a solid place to draw my moral code from, and provides guidance on how to ensure I do the most good for the most people while on Earth.

I believe in God because it provides an explanation for why the universe exists. Look at the variety and complexity of life on Earth: what the wonderous system of evolution created is beyond the scope of a human mind and so I feel there had to be a creator of evolution in order for it to work so well.
Just because something is beyond the scope of a human mind does not mean there has to be a God, but I understand how you would use this to reinforce your belief, so long is this is not the only thing holding up your belief.

The accomplishments of man as the only truly intelligent life on Earth also reinforce this,
How so? First, that's an extremely biased judgment of intelligent life, and second, I don't exactly understand how this reinforces a belief in God. Didn't God create all the creatures?

and the very fact that man could develop the concept of religion is proof to me that we seek something higher than ourselves.
Seeking something higher than ourselves does not inherently prove that there is something to be sought, merely that we believe there is something higher to be sought.

God also gives me greater purpose to my life, and motivates me to do good so that suffering and evil can be eliminated from the Earth.
Some people don't need this motivation, and still do good deeds.

I have the hope of an afterlife where I can be truly happy and free from human concerns living with a being of true, boundless love. It is that feeling of love, of higher purpose, that motivates me.
Okay. I can't really argue here, as this again is just an explanation of why God motivates you.

Lastly, religion provides me with a solid place to draw my moral code from, and provides guidance on how to ensure I do the most good for the most people while on Earth.
Keep in mind, religion is not the only place for moral codes to develop...

Just because something is beyond the scope of a human mind does not mean there has to be a God, but I understand how you would use this to reinforce your belief, so long is this is not the only thing holding up your belief.

1. Nope, I find religion to be comforting and to give me hope for after I die, amongst other reasons. Learning about the almost perfect interaction of the world's and even the universe's systems makes me feel that scientific discovery is the work of God because we are learning as much as we can about his creation.

How so? First, that's an extremely biased judgment of intelligent life, and second, I don't exactly understand how this reinforces a belief in God. Didn't God create all the creatures?

2.We're the only life (on Earth) that has true sentience far above that of any other species. God created all life, but humans are unique in that they are capable of these high levels of thinking and morality. Other sentient species on all planets were created in God's image because their ability to think and reason is similar to what God is. God "created" (obviously a metaphor for evolution) all of the organisms on Earth, but only man (on Earth) was created in his image.

Some people don't need this motivation, and still do good deeds.

3. No, because you follow your conscience to do what is right. Religion makes it easier because I am doing it for a higher purpose, to make everyone able to partake in God's creation free from the suffering and evils I can prevent.

Keep in mind, religion is not the only place for moral codes to develop

4. Moral codes do not require religion, because you follow your conscience (which I feel is also part of God's image) and draw from logic and experience to create one. As long as you do good and respect others, you will be rewarded after death (of course, existence permitting ;) )

Wouldn't a planet that involved ecosystems with less than perfect interactions simply destroy itself and fail to sustain life anyway? So it only makes sense that any planet that is capable of sustaining life, regardless of any divine intervention, would have "near perfect" interactions?

And I don't understand the whole "image of God" concept...to me, those are just words that Christians use, and I'm not even sure they know what they mean.

In my opinion, people who don't believe in some higher being tend to simply just ask "why" less often.



or some of us ask "why" considerably more...

i remember having issues with religion as a kid, the whole 'because god did it' or whatever never quite sat well with me.

naturally, i was drawn to the sciences at a very early age, and i liked the answers found there...

or some of us ask "why" considerably more...

i remember having issues with religion as a kid, the whole 'because god did it' or whatever never quite sat well with me.

naturally, i was drawn to the sciences at a very early age, and i liked the answers found there...

Although some prefer to see science as the tool used by God to create all that exists. I'll need to word this better at a later point but i'm kinda busy at the moment. Just thought i'd throw that in there

Wouldn't a planet that involved ecosystems with less than perfect interactions simply destroy itself and fail to sustain life anyway? So it only makes sense that any planet that is capable of sustaining life, regardless of any divine intervention, would have "near perfect" interactions?

And I don't understand the whole "image of God" concept...to me, those are just words that Christians use, and I'm not even sure they know what they mean.

No, because each system corrects the other when it fails to function properly. It takes something totally random and unexpected to throw the system off, like a meteor causing an ice age or pollution causing global warming. Otherwise, it functions great.

Planets are capable of sustaining life are that way because of the natural systems God developed. Earth was only chosen because it was in the right place at the right time.

The "image of God" doesn't mean physical appearance. It means the ability to reason and to use your conscience for doing good. Many people think it means physical image, but this is impossible because God has no physical form nor appearance.

No, because each system corrects the other when it fails to function properly. It takes something totally random and unexpected to throw the system off, like a meteor causing an ice age or pollution causing global warming. Otherwise, it functions great.

Planets are capable of sustaining life are that way because of the natural systems God developed. Earth was only chosen because it was in the right place at the right time.
...like I said, any planet that is capable of sustaining life would have to naturally function near-perfect, regardless of any diety...you just said that except you added that this is self-evidently because of God. What I'm trying to argue is that there is no definitive evidence.

The "image of God" doesn't mean physical appearance. It means the ability to reason and to use your conscience for doing good. Many people think it means physical image, but this is impossible because God has no physical form nor appearance.
Because it has been proven that animals don't use their conscience for doing good. More importantly, it's been proven that animals don't even have consciences, right? Sigh. Your argument isn't really adding up here.

Because it has been proven that animals don't use their conscience for doing good. More importantly, it's been proven that animals don't even have consciences, right? Sigh. Your argument isn't really adding up here.

What was that experiment with the monkeys? They gave electric shocks to one group of monkeys and there was another monkey seperated from the group, but able to see them, who could push a button to stop the shocks. In the end it became really stressed out and developed stomach ulsers.

I might only be giving the jist of this because I cant remember the specifics but this statement reminded me of that

My post was sarcastic.

My post was sarcastic.

I know it was. Just thought i'd back it up with something

...like I said, any planet that is capable of sustaining life would have to naturally function near-perfect, regardless of any diety...you just said that except you added that this is self-evidently because of God. What I'm trying to argue is that there is no definitive evidence.

Because it has been proven that animals don't use their conscience for doing good. More importantly, it's been proven that animals don't even have consciences, right? Sigh. Your argument isn't really adding up here.

No, there is no definitive evidence. I only believe in God because I feel it is the best system for me to live my life the best I can. The same goes for any religious or nonreligious person. We all want to find out the meanings of life, if they exist, and we all have different ways of searching for them.

Until it is proven that animals have consciences, I will continue to believe that the consciences are a uniquely human asset and thus divinely inspired.
Animals have no concept of good or wrong or morality, only survival instinct. However, they don't need it like humans because they do not commit evil acts. Only humans can commit evil as a byproduct of our free will and free thought.

No, there is no definitive evidence. I only believe in God because I feel it is the best system for me to live my life the best I can. The same goes for any religious or nonreligious person. We all want to find out the meanings of life, if they exist, and we all have different ways of searching for them.

Until it is proven that animals have consciences, I will continue to believe that the consciences are a uniquely human asset and thus divinely inspired.
Animals have no concept of good or wrong or morality, only survival instinct. However, they don't need it like humans because they do not commit evil acts. Only humans can commit evil as a byproduct of our free will and free thought.

I know i'm probably just showing my lack of intelligence but when my dog brings me a ball to throw for it, how is that a survival instinct?

We all want to find out the meanings of life, if they exist, and we all have different ways of searching for them.
Wrong.

Animals have no concept of good or wrong or morality, only survival instinct. However, they don't need it like humans because they do not commit evil acts. Only humans can commit evil as a byproduct of our free will and free thought.
...isn't it possible that animals simply have a BETTER concept of good or wrong or morality, and therefore DON'T commit evil?

I know i'm probably just showing my lack of intelligence but when my dog brings me a ball to throw for it, how is that a survival instinct?

You can train animals, and it has nothing to do with good or bad or morality. I think it was only misinterpretation and improper wording on my part.

Animals can learn and be trained, but their reactions to their environment are due to instinct.

The "image of God" doesn't mean physical appearance. It means the ability to reason and to use your conscience for doing good. Many people think it means physical image, but this is impossible because God has no physical form nor appearance.

Well, that's debatable. Firstly is the Jesus figure; God has supposedly taken on a human form before. Secondly is the Heaven approach; God presumably exists in an interactable format on some extra-existential dimension, or otherwise we would not be able to be "with" him any more than we are now. Thirdly is the image of God in the sense that he can project his essence into our realm through the holy spirit, which is how people receive a connection with him in this world. Finally, cognitive thought, which Judaism believed was a property shared by only humans, God, Satan and all of the etherial angelic servant types.

The one I tend to zone in on is the second one, though. God must have a physical form if it is possible to live with him in the afterlife. However, surely to have a form means that he is bound by the constraints of dimensions, no? So, does that mean that you have a choice between an omnipotent God and a life hereafter?

You can train animals, and it has nothing to do with good or bad or morality. I think it was only misinterpretation and improper wording on my part.

Animals can learn and be trained, but their reactions to their environment are due to instinct.

Fair enough. Although I didnt train my dog to do this. It just did it on its own. I should probably stop talking about my dog now.

Wrong.

...isn't it possible that animals simply have a BETTER concept of good or wrong or morality, and therefore DON'T commit evil?

For you, and others, that is correct. However, you do many other important things that are equally as valuable as my own thoughts and philosophical meditation.

No, because good and evil require the ability to comprehend what they are. However, in some ways they are better than humans. For example, they take only what they need for survival and rarely kill or hurt more than is necessary. However, at the same time they lack compassion for the weak, because their primary motive is survival and so those who humans would care for are often left to their deaths.

For you, and others, that is correct. However, you do many other important things that are equally as valuable as my own thoughts and philosophical meditation.

No, because good and evil require the ability to comprehend what they are. However, in some ways they are better than humans. For example, they take only what they need for survival and rarely kill or hurt more than is necessary. However, at the same time they lack compassion for the weak, because their primary motive is survival and so those who humans would care for are often left to their deaths.
Which is why when apes have miscarriages, they carry the dead baby around, right?

Well, that's debatable. Firstly is the Jesus figure; God has supposedly taken on a human form before. Secondly is the Heaven approach; God presumably exists in an interactable format on some extra-existential dimension, or otherwise we would not be able to be "with" him any more than we are now. Thirdly is the image of God in the sense that he can project his essence into our realm through the holy spirit, which is how people receive a connection with him in this world. Finally, cognitive thought, which Judaism believed was a property shared by only humans, God, Satan and all of the etherial angelic servant types.

The one I tend to zone in on is the second one, though. God must have a physical form if it is possible to live with him in the afterlife. However, surely to have a form means that he is bound by the constraints of dimensions, no? So, does that mean that you have a choice between an omnipotent God and a life hereafter?

I agree with the idea that we can interact with God following our death, but I doubt he takes any specific form (and definitely not like Michelangelo imagined, in my opinion). It's probably more along the lines of a mental exchange rather than verbal or physical, because by the time one can interact with God you are far above the earthly needs of the physical body, and are likely only interacting in a spiritual form. Jesus was only a human because humans were the species on Earth God created with the capacity to understand him; if sent to other sentient life planets, Jesus would be of their form. The Holy Spirit is probably what God is most like, an ethereal form that is felt rather than seen, although you would be able to communicate with it directly through mental communication.

As for your last question, I can't be sure what the options are. I suppose the only ways are either an extraordinary vision from God or finding out after death.

Which is why when apes have miscarriages, they carry the dead baby around, right?

Damm. Beaten to it

Which is why when apes have miscarriages, they carry the dead baby around, right?

That is an interesting point. Apes are very close to humans, and share a lot in common. Perhaps because humans were awarded with "God's image" upon reaching sentience, apes also share some of that because they are close enough to humankind share rudimentary comprehension of it?

That is an interesting point. Apes are very close to humans, and share a lot in common. Perhaps because humans were awarded with "God's image" upon reaching sentience, apes also share some of that because they are close enough to humankind share rudimentary comprehension of it?

Many animals show maternal instinct so you're thoughts on this dont work

Many animals show maternal instinct so you're thoughts on this dont work

Yes, so it makes me wonder about the meaning of "in God's image". I'll have to look in to it more. Thanks for providing me with this idea. :)

Yes, so it makes me wonder about the meaning of "in God's image". I'll have to look in to it more. Thanks for providing me with this idea. :)

My kind of Christian.

My kind of Christian.
Yea, really.

Instead of blindly and continuously arguing, he is actually going to look something up or find some sort of backing.

Yea, really.

Instead of blindly and continuously arguing, he is actually going to look something up or find some sort of backing.

I was always of the opinion that its better to question your faith and come through it still believing than to never challenge it at all. Unfortunately i'm still in the questioning phase

Yea, really.

Instead of blindly and continuously arguing, he is actually going to look something up or find some sort of backing.

You seem to have had some rough experiences in the past (it's hard enough debating them about why I support evolution and not ID) with debating Christians.

I know when I can't support something, and I think it's best to agree with the side that has the best argument, learn about it, and (quite often) change my views rather than stonewall with the old "it's in the Bible" argument or simply deny it and say "you can't make me change my mind because I believe this regardless".

You seem to have had some rough experiences in the past (it's hard enough debating them about why I support evolution and not ID) with debating Christians.

I know when I can't support something, and I think it's best to agree with the side that has the best argument, learn about it, and (quite often) change my views rather than stonewall with the old "it's in the Bible" argument or simply deny it and say "you can't make me change my mind because I believe this regardless".
You joined NS in March 2005. Despite my thing saying I joined July 2005, I've had other NS accounts going as far back as I think January 2002 maybe, I'm not sure exactly, but anyway....the typical NS Christian is pretty stubborn (see the debate about Gay marriage and Greenlander...)

You joined NS in March 2005. Despite my thing saying I joined July 2005, I've had other NS accounts going as far back as I think January 2002 maybe, I'm not sure exactly, but anyway....the typical NS Christian is pretty stubborn (see the debate about Gay marriage and Greenlander...)

To be fair though there are plenty of atheists who are exactly the same in their opinions / arguments

To be fair though there are plenty of atheists who are exactly the same in their opinions / arguments
Yea, but I'm not usually arguing with them, although I will, on occasion, point out major flaws in their arguments, even if the point they're arguing is something I agree with.

Yes, so it makes me wonder about the meaning of "in God's image". I'll have to look in to it more. Thanks for providing me with this idea. :)

Let me feild this one i'm a pk so i know what i means. When the bible uses the term "in God's image." It's not talking about a physical form, rather it is talking about a mental sort of form, knowlege, compassion,ect.,ect. Feelings and the mind.

I don't know if my reply bears any relation to the converstion going on now, but to reply to the orginal question: I have two reasons for being an athiest. The first reason have to do with a more logical approach to whether god exist, and is as follows: Everything is either provably true or provably false. Since the excistance of god is neither provably true or provably false, you have to assume it is improvably false until proven. The second reason is very personal; I was attacked. In the 3rd grade, yes the 3rd grade, I first began voiceing my opinions and questions about whether god existed or not. The entire class attacked me based on what I said. The entire class, made wholly of 3rd graders, mind you. The most vivid memory I have from then is being shoved to the ground, being crushed, while someone shoved a cross in my face while screaming that I was the devil. For a couple years I was traumitized and I remember being pushed to tears a couple of time when questioned why I didn't believe in god. Since then I have thought lowly of those who believe in god. I look down on religion because of the mentality religion can create. The crusades, anyone?

I'm an atheist because religion makes no sense and I consider it to be detrimental to many aspects of society. I do not want flaming for this, that is what I think.

basically I was never brought up to believe in god so I't would be like trying to believe in faeries or something but also because if there was a god I would hate him because of all the barbarities that have arisen from religion such as sexism, racism wars, ect. Also why is god a "he"? I asked a priest who visited my school that once and he just looked at me.

Large amounts of people do not believe in God anymore for one simple reason. It has been educated out of them. Since the successful socialization of American Education was completed in the mid 60's, public education has become an insturment of indoctrination as apposed to learning. Religon has the ability to make people place god above government as their primary loyality. This doesn't sit well with Leftists as their only grip on power is dependent on the people being dependent on them and them alone. It is the same reason they destroyed the family unit. Nothing can come before your loving government. It really is that simple.

Liverbreath']Large amounts of people do not believe in God anymore for one simple reason. It has been educated out of them. Since the successful socialization of American Education was completed in the mid 60's, public education has become an insturment of indoctrination as apposed to learning. Religon has the ability to make people place god above government as their primary loyality. This doesn't sit well with Leftists as their only grip on power is dependent on the people being dependent on them and them alone. It is the same reason they destroyed the family unit. Nothing can come before your loving government. It really is that simple.
...I don't even know how to respond to this...

...I don't even know how to respond to this...

There's really no need to respond to it. Just dismiss it as I am sure you will, but keep it in mind and keep an eye on your government. They are more manipulative than one could imagine.

Well, I don't really like it when people blame things on "the left" or "the right," and I also don't like the fact that you claim the only reason anyone would be athiest is because of "educational" propaganda...which is rediculous. I call it open-mindedness.

Liverbreath']Large amounts of people do not believe in God anymore for one simple reason. It has been educated out of them. Since the successful socialization of American Education was completed in the mid 60's, public education has become an insturment of indoctrination as apposed to learning. Religon has the ability to make people place god above government as their primary loyality. This doesn't sit well with Leftists as their only grip on power is dependent on the people being dependent on them and them alone. It is the same reason they destroyed the family unit. Nothing can come before your loving government. It really is that simple.


so educating someone in a religous environment _isn't_ indoctrination?
im doubtful, but i hope i misunderstood something here....

Well, I don't really like it when people blame things on "the left" or "the right," and I also don't like the fact that you claim the only reason anyone would be athiest is because of "educational" propaganda...which is rediculous. I call it open-mindedness.

Unfortunately in this case left was necessary due to the fact that it was socialized, however, I should say that politicians on the right were more than happy with the federal government taking over the schools. One must take into consderation however that our educational system is almost entirely staffed by left leaning individuals.
I am not saying the only reason anyone would be an athiest is because of educational propagada. I am saying massive amounts of people are athiests now because of the attempts by those in education to eliminate any mention or reminder even remotely associated with religon.

Liverbreath']Large amounts of people do not believe in God anymore for one simple reason. It has been educated out of them. Since the successful socialization of American Education was completed in the mid 60's, public education has become an insturment of indoctrination as apposed to learning. Religon has the ability to make people place god above government as their primary loyality. This doesn't sit well with Leftists as their only grip on power is dependent on the people being dependent on them and them alone. It is the same reason they destroyed the family unit. Nothing can come before your loving government. It really is that simple.

...i don't neccessarily agree with this. not the "education is anti-religious" sentiment, that i can see your point in (although i still don't neccessarily agree with it) but your "education makes you love your government" thing. education teaches you a method that allows you to critically think, questioning things that otherwise would have gone unquestioned (if it's done correctly) and government isn't exempt from this, although admittedly neither is religion or family.

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

The reason is very simple, but I doubt you'll like it, because it's a counter question: Why should I believe?

I don't. Because noone have ever made a compelling argument.

Add to this that I find the predominant monotheisms unethical, and that the idea of gods or some higher authority reprehensible (and incomprehensible).
An authority I cannot challenge is not one I will ever bow down to. To do so would be to disregard my personal judgement in favour of something that cannot be made responsible for it's actions & judgement.
It would also mean I would have to give up my personal freedom. And that I will not do. Not for anything.

I hope it's obvious from my answer that atheism doesn't equate hoplessnes, a meaningless life or pure nihilism. But I would like to know why you think it does? - Because that is what you imply, right?

Liverbreath']Unfortunately in this case left was necessary due to the fact that it was socialized, however, I should say that politicians on the right were more than happy with the federal government taking over the schools. One must take into consderation however that our educational system is almost entirely staffed by left leaning individuals.
I am not saying the only reason anyone would be an athiest is because of educational propagada. I am saying massive amounts of people are athiests now because of the attempts by those in education to eliminate any mention or reminder even remotely associated with religon.
Or maybe more people are athiest now because educators are trying to teach people to be more open-minded, and so people quit automatically taking your God's presence for granted?

Anyway, the reason that people "on the left" are more prone to be educators is because people "on the right" are typically more concerned with earning a lot of money, and less concerning with, uhm, people.

so educating someone in a religous environment _isn't_ indoctrination?
im doubtful, but i hope i misunderstood something here....

It isn't indoctrination if all sides are presented and students are allowed freedom to explore other alternatives. Only in public education is this not an option. For the record, I am not religous at all but I did live and go to school during these times and everyone knew what was up since the day that the federal government started bribing the states with milk money.

i dont recall a time when all sides were represented, when a child was free to explore all religions in public school.

ONLY in public schools is this not an option?? i have my doubts that religious schools are open to teaching children the theology of other sects. except perhaps in that "catholics worship statues" kind of way.

modern life is too complicated to have to cover all religious possibilities in class. its easier and fairer to just leave it out and let families teach their children the religion they feel is best.

Or maybe more people are athiest now because educators are trying to teach people to be more open-minded, and so people quit automatically taking your God's presence for granted?

Anyway, the reason that people "on the left" are more prone to be educators is because people "on the right" are typically more concerned with earning a lot of money, and less concerning with, uhm, people.

Right ok. They are promoting open mindedness by refusing any mention of christian religon, which is the predominate religon in this country, but religons like Islam are ok to mention. Come on, if you are open minded then this has to stink to high heaven. (joke)

Sorry but that is not the case. People on the right do not pursue educational carreers anymore because they are screened out of the hiring process entirely. When I was going to school they were in the process of getting rid of conservatives for any reason they could. It was shameful. At one time there was about a 50/50 mix between Democrats and Republican teachers. Not even in math and economics anymore.

Christianity is the predominate religion.

...and essentially common knowledge.

It is more important to teach about the things that people are less likely to hear about in their homes.

By the way, in my classes in high school, all major religions were mentioned just about the same amount...

Liverbreath']Right ok. They are promoting open mindedness by refusing any mention of christian religon, which is the predominate religon in this country, but religons like Islam are ok to mention. Come on, if you are open minded then this has to stink to high heaven. (joke)

Sorry but that is not the case. People on the right do not pursue educational carreers anymore because they are screened out of the hiring process entirely. When I was going to school they were in the process of getting rid of conservatives for any reason they could. It was shameful. At one time there was about a 50/50 mix between Democrats and Republican teachers. Not even in math and economics anymore.

...shouldn't that be more of a review of the republican party than of teachers? i mean, people who care about the future of children refuse to vote republican? it's very fashionable to bash teachers right now, but they work incredibly hard for very little recognition because they honestly believe that education is key to our future. why does this make them the bad guys?

...and show of hands, who learned about islam in any detail in public school?

My strongly conservative, strongly Christian, History teacher in high school taught us about Islam in detail, and is even trying to get a world religions class at my old high school..

And besides, if schools are teaching about world religions, then why would that make a child athiest? and not change to another religion instead?

That doesn't add up.

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

Seem like you were trying to start a fight to me....


But lets see anyway:

1st: I am an athiest because I have studied all the major religons, including many ancient religons and I don't want to insult you so I will just say I find it all very unlikely.
2nd: Hiprocacy of all the major religons, sorry you may not be but many are.
3rd: I have many reasons to live and innovate. I find you idea that atheistism means you pity existance to be insulting!
4rth: Your very closed minded my friend but its your right to think that way so enjoy yourself..

I'm astonished how everything can be turned into a debate about the evils of leftwingers... Where the hell did that come from?

Anyway, the premise looks wrong to me.

I'm an atheist. I went to public school (not in US mind you).

We were taught religion in school for at least a couple of years.

The religious education we got were almost exclusively Protestant Christian.

The religious education started when I began school. It ended halfway though or so. If the goal were to teach me about religion, and not indoctrinate me, the religious education I received makes no sense. Nor does the timing of it.

Moving on... If the teachers are all leftwingers, who's to blame?

Are rightwing teachers discriminated against during their education?

Are they discriminated against by the school system?

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusion...

It would certainly be a much simpler world where the existence of God was provable. Sometimes it's depressing to think about just what might happen after death. But death happens. Parents die. Friends die. Even goldfish die. It's beautiful, really. To enjoy a life of knowing people, and things, to grow old, face mortality, and drift off.

My strongly conservative, strongly Christian, History teacher in high school taught us about Islam in detail, and is even trying to get a world religions class at my old high school..

And besides, if schools are teaching about world religions, then why would that make a child athiest? and not change to another religion instead?

That doesn't add up.

It doesn't make a child an athiest, but if you don't want someone to believe in something the best way is to make sure it doesnt even exist. By simply putting the very topic off limits, what is that telling kids in your opinion? (Just for your own information, I already know I am not going to convince you of the truth in what I say)
It's good to see a conservative christian has a job in a school now days. Wait till you get to college and observe the trend!

It would certainly be a much simpler world where the existence of God was provable. Sometimes it's depressing to think about just what might happen after death. But death happens. Parents die. Friends die. Even goldfish die. It's beautiful, really. To enjoy a life of knowing people, and things, to grow old, face mortality, and drift off.

I'm an agnostic myself so I would certainly consider that a big help. The way I figure it, as long as I live a decent life and treat others the way I would want to be treated, I should have as good a chance as any, in the event I do end up having to be judged by a supreme being!

Liverbreath']I'm an agnostic myself so I would certainly consider that a big help. The way I figure it, as long as I live a decent life and treat others the way I would want to be treated, I should have as good a chance as any, in the event I do end up having to be judged by a supreme being!

You will. As a Catholic, I believe in "deed, not creed", so if you live morally and do good, you'll be as well of as anyone else who does the same. Even if you don't believe, you would still be serving God.

...shouldn't that be more of a review of the republican party than of teachers? i mean, people who care about the future of children refuse to vote republican? it's very fashionable to bash teachers right now, but they work incredibly hard for very little recognition because they honestly believe that education is key to our future. why does this make them the bad guys?

...and show of hands, who learned about islam in any detail in public school?

I'm sorry but this makes no sense to me. I don't see anyone bashing teachers.

Quoting [NS]Liverbreath
I'm an agnostic myself so I would certainly consider that a big help. The way I figure it, as long as I live a decent life and treat others the way I would want to be treated, I should have as good a chance as any, in the event I do end up having to be judged by a supreme being!

I share this opinion. I don't believe in creeds or ideologies. I just believe in what I think is right. I've long held, and taught people I know, that as long as they try to leave others alone, and treat them the same way they treat you, and just generally be your own person without harming others... then how could a loving being such as God, if He exists, possibly send you to hell for? For not participating in rituals at Church? Anyways, excellent point made, Liver.

Prophets cannot be believed because anyone can claim to be a prophet or the son of god, and prophecies that come true can be falsified by an organized church (who composed the Bible?). Therefore there are an infinite number of possible spiritual (unobservable) worlds, some of which are incomprehensible. Some have no Gods and reincarnation. Some have many Gods. Some have florgs and gloopogs. How can you possible choose the ONE TRUTH? Even if it is as simple as there is a god, what are his properties, what is his personality, does he have a personality, or free will for that matter! How can you choose?

You will. As a Catholic, I believe in "deed, not creed", so if you live morally and do good, you'll be as well of as anyone else who does the same. Even if you don't believe, you would still be serving God.

Ha! I'd never heard that before. Makes me feel better. BTW, can I use you as a reference? :D

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

Why should I believe in a god? Why should anybody, in fact? I simply haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe in the existance of a god.

"Logic" and "evolution" certainly are no explanation. But lack of convincing proof is. If we start by believing that anything is possible then we might as well believe that our existence is an illusion caused by the altered imagination of a giant slug on drugs.

It makes much better sense to rely on our senses and reason, limited as they are and even though they can mislead us. At the end we may find out that we are, in fact, an illusion caused by the altered imagination of a giant slug on drugs, but at least we'll be reasonably sure of that.

Liverbreath']Ha! I'd never heard that before. Makes me feel better. BTW, can I use you as a reference? :D

Well, if I get to heaven, I'll be sure to put in a good word. ;)

Liverbreath']It isn't indoctrination if all sides are presented and students are allowed freedom to explore other alternatives. Only in public education is this not an option. For the record, I am not religous at all but I did live and go to school during these times and everyone knew what was up since the day that the federal government started bribing the states with milk money.


i think i may be seeing what your getting at here, but im not sure it's possible, especially considering the number of religions/belief systems out there. so i feel the only other 'fair' way to address the issue is, well, to not address it.

besides, i am not even sure what place religion has in education, outside of a religion class (and im aware of the relations and tie-ins with history and such, etc)

the big school subjects, english, math, science, well i dont really see religion figuring in them one way or another.

and admittedly, i do get a bit defensive when i hear about something being proposed to mention religion in school, but thats mainly because it tends to be 1 of 3 things, in my experience
1. posting of 10 commandments and such

2. group/vocal prayers

3. teaching 'creationism' alongside of/instead of evolution in bio classes, or leaving evolution out of biology classes

i dont want to get into a evo/creo thread here, theres enough of them floating around, only to say, creo may be valid in a personal/theological perspective, but not in a scientific one...

(gah, i prolly just opened up a big ole can of worms here.....)

Why do people believe in no God?

Why do you believe in no Santa?

Seriously, the answer is the same. I have no more reason to believe in God than I have to believe in leprechauns, unicorns, gnomes, Easter Bunnies, Santa Clauses, and space aliens who look exactly like Elvis. I have no reason to believe that any human religion is any more right than any other human religion, or that any of them are right, so even if I wanted to believe in a God I wouldn't have any reason to follow any human concept of God that currently exists.

Asking why people believe in no God is strange to me, to be honest. It's like asking why people believe in no Bigfoots. Wouldn't a more pertinent question be, why do people believe in God? I mean, belief in God is what requires the greatest leap. It defies logic and natural reality, by definition of being supernatural, and requires that all human experience be subverted to accomodate a potentially super-human concept. Why are some people determined to believe in something for which there can be no evidence?

i think i may be seeing what your getting at here, but im not sure it's possible, especially considering the number of religions/belief systems out there. so i feel the only other 'fair' way to address the issue is, well, to not address it.



(gah, i prolly just opened up a big ole can of worms here.....)

Naw, not with me anyway. Personally, I think the only acceptable way to deal with it, is to return the schools to the local populations. The US government never had a right to interfere in education in the first place, much less dictate what people wanted their kids taught in school. Have you by chance ever had the opportunity to see what an elementary kids workload was like 100 years ago compared to today? They really learned stuff back then!
Of course this is a completely impossible solution as our government never gives back what it has taken, without a real fight.

eh, couldnt tell you, i went to a _really_ bad public highschool.

honestly, i believe it was a waste of time for me there, the only stuff i really learned(outside of a 1/2 dozen decent classes) was stuff i read in books of my own volition (which were usually hid behind the textbook so the teacher wouldnt see me reading in class)

seriously, i think i was in 10th grade and we spent a whole class trying to teach people how many sides certain polygons have. and not dodecahedrons and such, im talking like hexagons and pentagons....

and again, spent 1/2 a class in... i think it might have been 12th grade trying to figure out how many weeks are in a month....

i dont know though, i think there are benefits to having some aspects of government controlled at a federal level, i can only imagine how bad my highschool would have been if everything was left completely up to the locals.

also, it seems to me (especially with community colleges and the such) that more problems are caused by administrators and other political types, who are more concerned about presenting a good image or pushing their own personal agendas(or careers...) then in educating students...

I find that a lot of people here aren't giving real reasons as to why they think a god doesn't exist. They say that there is no proof that a god exists, but I don't think that is why they don't believe in a god, because there is also no proof of the absence of a god. The lack of proof of a god therefore isn't a reason, but a justification. The reason, then, must lie in the choice they made between the theory and the faith.

The belief in a god does not require the belief in any specific god as defined by holy texts such as the Bible, but rather an idea. If you think of it this way then arguements concerning contradictions within the holy texts are irrelivent to the belief.

I personally believe that the only reason not to believe in a god (or to believe in a god) exists beyond tangibles, and can only be described through emotional or spiritual expression.

I find that a lot of people here aren't giving real reasons as to why they think a god doesn't exist. They say that there is no proof that a god exists, but I don't think that is why they don't believe in a god, because there is also no proof of the absence of a god. The lack of proof of a god therefore isn't a reason, but a justification. The reason, then, must lie in the choice they made between the theory and the faith.

Yes but, there is also no proof that there isn't more than one god.

And, by the way, how was God created if he does exist?

I believe in God because I have experienced Him, and I feel His presence and love around me many a time. I've cross-checked the details with what is written in His Holy Book, the Bible, and I find that they are consistent with what I've been experiencing.

I find that a lot of people here aren't giving real reasons as to why they think a god doesn't exist. They say that there is no proof that a god exists, but I don't think that is why they don't believe in a god, because there is also no proof of the absence of a god. The lack of proof of a god therefore isn't a reason, but a justification. The reason, then, must lie in the choice they made between the theory and the faith.

The belief in a god does not require the belief in any specific god as defined by holy texts such as the Bible, but rather an idea. If you think of it this way then arguements concerning contradictions within the holy texts are irrelivent to the belief.

I personally believe that the only reason not to believe in a god (or to believe in a god) exists beyond tangibles, and can only be described through emotional or spiritual expression.

Why believe in no God? A few reasons have already been put forward, but I believe that the idea of God as an extra-planar, personal deity has too much of a humanistic bent to it. The idea of God the father seems far too human to be supernatural; it almost seems to scream "Anthropomorphic Personification" at me. That God has been explained as an effectively bigger and stronger version of ourselves points a firm finger at human invention as the origin of its conception.

Ultimately, the reason I struggle with the personal God is that someone could very well have simply just created the notion, filled in the blanks as he went along and designed an image of a big man in the sky with very little effort or imagination. Curiously enough, this is the only model that provides fulfilment of the "Paradise Afterlife" concept, but that's another issue.

I think that if God did exist, then either He would be of a form that no human could ever directly but individually interact with or He would be constrained by the physical laws of his own plane of existence. Both of these inevitably counteract the personal, omnipotent God theory.

But, then again, I'm still thinking it through.

I don't think a God exists in the way people think he exists. An omnipotent God cannot be a personal one, because any life hereafter would be no closer to him than our current one. Either he's the Creator or he's the Father; you may take your pick, but you can't both have cake and eat cake.

That's not to say that I don't think A God doesn't exist, but generally we refer to God as the super-planar, omnipotent deity of monotheism. I can accept God as the spiritual power and guider of our actions like the Eastern Faiths, but I cannot do so as the creator figure that Western and Middle-Eastern religions make him out to be.

I wasn't brought up religious, and I've never seen the point. Religion seems hilarious at best to me: I'm as inclined to believe in 'Arabian Nights' as in the Bible. I guess there could be a God, though I think it's very unlikely, but I don't have any reason to believe in it/him: I don't feel his/its presence, nor do I expect I ever will.

Basically I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in unicorns.

How many of those who believe in a God have researched other religions and read their religious texts? I was always curious as to why people believe their own religion is the right one. When people say they believe in God because they have felt his presence, how do they know it isnt the presence of another God

How many of those who believe in a God have researched other religions and read their religious texts? I was always curious as to why people believe their own religion is the right one. When people say they believe in God because they have felt his presence, how do they know it isnt the presence of another God

My belief is that everyone who feels some sort of calling is ultimately being drawn by the same thing. Most religions would back me up on that, though everyone would say that theirs is the thing that all others are drawn by.

Oh, and my thing could only be called God if you redefined what "God" actually meant. Which, incidentally, might not be a bad idea.

My belief is that everyone who feels some sort of calling is ultimately being drawn by the same thing. Most religions would back me up on that, though everyone would say that theirs is the thing that all others are drawn by.

Oh, and my thing could only be called God if you redefined what "God" actually meant. Which, incidentally, might not be a bad idea. >_>;

Just to clarify this for me are you saying then that all religions are just different paths which follow the same god in different ways?

How many of those who believe in a God have researched other religions and read their religious texts? I was always curious as to why people believe their own religion is the right one. When people say they believe in God because they have felt his presence, how do they know it isnt the presence of another God

And how many of those who don't believe in a god have researched any religion and read any religious texts? Before they do that, they say, "oh nah, there is no god".

And how many of those who don't believe in a god have researched any religion and read any religious texts? Before they do that, they say, "oh nah, there is no god".

I don't believe in any god. I've read the Old Testament, the New Testament, parts of the Bahadgavita, most of the Koran, and assorted bits of Daoist and Buddhist litterature.

And how many of those who don't believe in a god have researched any religion and read any religious texts? Before they do that, they say, "oh nah, there is no god".

I'm trying that out but its gonna take me a long time to read all of these. I've been working my way through the Bible for a couple of months and still havent got very far. You'd think they coulda just compressed it for idiots like me

I don't believe in any god. I've read the Old Testament, the New Testament, parts of the Bahadgavita, most of the Koran, and assorted bits of Daoist and Buddhist litterature.

You read all those. That's exactly what you did. Did you try to figure out what it really meant? Did you study it? Of course you can't just believe anything just by reading about it. So thankfully you didn't, or else it's called being "gullible".

Why did you read them, I'm interested?

I'm trying that out but its gonna take me a long time to read all of these. I've been working my way through the Bible for a couple of months and still havent got very far. You'd think they coulda just compressed it for idiots like me

Here you are:

"For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life." John 3:16

Just to clarify this for me are you saying then that all religions are just different paths which follow the same god in different ways?

The benovelent monotheistic religions think that, yeah. I'd go further, though. Underlying even the God idea is something innate in human nature that lets it think "There is something supernatural going on in this world". When people experience a call to religion of any kind, they see a fulfilment in this need.

Basically, humans have an instinctual ear for "God" built into them either by creation or, as I believe, by interaction with the world around them. I'd delve deeper, but this isn't the place to go spouting my own half-baked ideas.

Those who believe in a Creator God simply feel that we have that need satisfied in faith in him. Many other religions have been able to grasp part of the truth, which is why their followers feel the calling they do, but that "what I believe is the one to which all others aspire".

Or, to put it another way, most religions have the basic idea right, but are all equally wrong with the bells and whistles they've attached themselves.

I've never seen it as a choice. It just seems natural not to believe in a God and that isn't going to change anytime soon. Even if I wanted to believe in God I wouldn't be able to; I've tried. I was never brought up to believe one way or another and I can't find the faith to believe in something which I don't see as having any proof or logic to it. I'm perfectly happy without a religion, in some ways happier than I might be with condemnations and absolutes that I disagree with.

The benovelent monotheistic religions think that, yeah. I'd go further, though. Underlying even the God idea is something innate in human nature that lets it think "There is something supernatural going on in this world". When people experience a call to religion of any kind, they see a fulfilment in this need.

Basically, humans have an instinctual ear for "God" built into them either by creation or, as I believe, by interaction with the world around them. I'd delve deeper, but this isn't the place to go spouting my own half-baked ideas.

Those who believe in a Creator God simply feel that we have that need satisfied in faith in him. Many other religions have been able to grasp part of the truth, which is why their followers feel the calling they do, but that "what I believe is the one to which all others aspire".

Or, to put it another way, most religions have the basic idea right, but are all equally wrong with the bells and whistles they've attached themselves.

Interesting way to think about it. Thanks for your ideas. Gives me something to think about myself

You read all those. That's exactly what you did. Did you try to figure out what it really meant? Did you study it? Of course you can't just believe anything just by reading about it. So thankfully you didn't, or else it's called being "gullible".

Why did you read them, I'm interested?

I studied them at university. We discussed them extensively. At the time I was working on a minor in world religions, but I got very sick of it. I read them, I've been to church before, I've studied them. I still don't believe in god, big G or otherwise. What more do you want from me? I made the effort, it still doesn't appeal.

I made the effort, it still doesn't appeal.

Why not?

EDIT: Maybe it's because of this:

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25

Why not?

EDIT: Maybe it's because of this:

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes." Matthew 11:25

Well that doesn't seem very convincing to me. Are you saying I should give up being reasonable and thinking things through? Maybe I should believe in unicorns too? Or why not believe in Voodoo, for that matter?

The fact is, for someone like me who was not brought up religious, there is nothing short of a personal revelation (which hasn't happened for me, though I suppose it could) that would convince me of the validity of Christianity. If I don't believe in the Biblical stories, don't feel his love/presence/etc, and have never had a spiritual experience of any kind, I don't see how you can criticize me.

Well that doesn't seem very convincing to me. Are you saying I should give up being reasonable and thinking things through? Maybe I should believe in unicorns too? Or why not believe in Voodoo, for that matter?.

Please don't stop thinking rationally and reasonably. But how far can your rationality and reason get you? Try to drop some of your presumptions about Christianity, and lose that arrogant attitude about your own intelligence. By "arrogant" I don't mean any offence, but all of us think since we are smart enough to operate a computer, then we should be able to dissect Christianity and the will of God. We cannot, or else He wouldn't be "God". The more we try to intellectually "understand" Christianity, the further we will be from the truth. This is when faith comes in.

The fact is, for someone like me who was not brought up religious, there is nothing short of a personal revelation (which hasn't happened for me, though I suppose it could) that would convince me of the validity of Christianity. If I don't believe in the Biblical stories, don't feel his love/presence/etc, and have never had a spiritual experience of any kind, I don't see how you can criticize me.

No...my parents weren't brought up to be religious, and they've been Christians for over twenty years. And I was never thinking of criticising you! I'm just trying to share some of my thoughts.

Please don't stop thinking rationally and reasonably. But how far can your rationality and reason get you? Try to drop some of your presumptions about Christianity, and lose that arrogant attitude about your own intelligence. By "arrogant" I don't mean any offence, but all of us think since we are smart enough to operate a computer, then we should be able to dissect Christianity and the will of God. We cannot, or else He wouldn't be "God". The more we try to intellectually "understand" Christianity, the further we will be from the truth. This is when faith comes in.


So given that I don't believe in the Bible's veracity (at least in terms to the 'miraculous and the divine', you're saying I should just have faith? But WHY? Why not have faith in the Koran, or the Rig Vedas, or what have you. I don't understand how, lacking any kind of personal revelation, I could just start believing in a God I've never felt or experienced, based on a book that doesn't seem true to me.

So given that I don't believe in the Bible's veracity (at least in terms to the 'miraculous and the divine', you're saying I should just have faith? But WHY? Why not have faith in the Koran, or the Rig Vedas, or what have you. I don't understand how, lacking any kind of personal revelation, I could just start believing in a God I've never felt or experienced, based on a book that doesn't seem true to me.

Because Allah didn't die for your sins on the cross. Christ came to Earth to rescue you from your sins, how ever large or numerous they may be. No other deity offers this.

You can't just sit there and wait for a miracle to happen - because it's not. Christ doesn't fall in place for you.

Jesus said: "See, I am waiting at the door and giving the sign; if my voice comes to any man's ears and he makes the door open, I will come in to him, and will take food with him and he with me." Revelation 3:20

You have to open the door.

Because Allah didn't die for your sins on the cross. Christ came to Earth to rescue you from your sins, how ever large or numerous they may be. No other deity offers this.

There are dieties in Hinduism that offer something similar to this (Shiva, for example, allows anyone dying in Banaras into "heaven" (though not exactly heaven obviously) providing the proper rites are performed). I don't believe that dying in Banaras will get me into heaven: I don't believe in Shiva. But I don't believe that Christ's cruxifiction will get me into heaven either.

You can't just sit there and wait for a miracle to happen - because it's not. Christ doesn't fall in place for you.

Jesus said: "See, I am waiting at the door and giving the sign; if my voice comes to any man's ears and he makes the door open, I will come in to him, and will take food with him and he with me." Revelation 3:20

You have to open the door.

Sure. But I don't feel as if I HAVE a door. I don't feel spiritual: I don't have that side to me, in general. The closest I've come is some 'ghostly' encounters, and that's hardly the same thing.

I understand why religion works for some people, but I don't seem to be one of those people.

But I don't believe that Christ's cruxifiction will get me into heaven either.

Why not? You have sins. You need them cleansed. Christ did that for you. That's it. That's Christianity in three sentences. It's so easy it's nearly unbelieveable.


Sure. But I don't feel as if I HAVE a door. I don't feel spiritual: I don't have that side to me, in general. The closest I've come is some 'ghostly' encounters, and that's hardly the same thing.

I understand why religion works for some people, but I don't seem to be one of those people.

Ah well. I believe all humans innately have a desire for an inner peace - a spiritual inner self that animals don't have. All religions and beliefs and faiths and philosophies and human sciences try to fulfill that inner space.

Ah well. I believe all humans innately have a desire for an inner peace - a spiritual inner self that animals don't have. All religions and beliefs and faiths and philosophies and human sciences try to fulfill that inner space.

Personally my lack of faith is one of my biggest fears but no matter how much I fear a life without faith I cannot force myself to believe in something. I was brought up as a protestant but i've considered myself agnostic for several years now. This is one of the reasons I have decided to try and do more reading on other religions.

Personally my lack of faith is one of my biggest fears but no matter how much I fear a life without faith I cannot force myself to believe in something. I was brought up as a protestant but i've considered myself agnostic for several years now. This is one of the reasons I have decided to try and do more reading on other religions.

Yeah...you got me thinking. I probably will need to read the Koran once and try to understand that - just to strengthen my belief in Christianity.

Because Allah didn't die for your sins on the cross. Christ came to Earth to rescue you from your sins, how ever large or numerous they may be. No other deity offers this..

So the reason xianity is better is because of one act with no follow up? If you come to god through JC, instant salvation.
Krishna came to earth in 10 incarnations to help the people
Buddah was born seven times before his final incarnation as Siddartha
Bodhisatvas have acheived enlightenment yet do not ascend to nirvana, choosing instead to stay behind and help others.

For me the big divide here is that other saints and beings have come to earth to guide people on their way to a better, or if you will, more moral life. JC preached and left a message but no written record and his message was one of the end of the world (the kingdom of Heaven is at hand). Yeah, he died and cleansed sin, but were was the follow through? Where is the written sayings of JC as penned by JC, not but together years later by Bishops. The next time JC shows up will be at the end of the world. (2nd coming)

Yeah...you got me thinking. I probably will need to read the Koran once and try to understand that - just to strengthen my belief in Christianity.

Yeah i've always been of the opinion that it is better to question your faith and come out still believing than to never challenge it at all. And i'm pretty sure thats the 3rd time in 2 days i've used that sentence. Damm broken records

Yeah i've always been of the opinion that it is better to question your faith and come out still believing than to never challenge it at all. And i'm pretty sure thats the 3rd time in 2 days i've used that sentence. Damm broken records

Hey, it is a true statement for most situations. :p

This is one of the reasons I have decided to try and do more reading on other religions.

Good on ya! Try some of the readings on Tantrism (no, not tantric sex, that's for latter ;) ) It's great. The Shiva and the Shakti, divine principals of the universe. You cannot deny god because in denying you evoke them. Of course Paramansa Yogananda "Autobiography of a Yogi" is just good fun.
A great one for spirituallity in a dual culture, modern world is Malidoma Patrice Some "Ritual: poetry, healing, and community." He was African raised and then taken by missionaries and taught xianity. It's a short book (103 pages) and makes the argument that the lack of ritual in the Western world is why our society is unravelling.
For heavier reading try the toa de ching, the mahabarta, the veda's, the analects. Oh the places you'll go.

Good on ya! Try some of the readings on Tantrism (no, not tantric sex, that's for latter ;) ) It's great. The Shiva and the Shakti, divine principals of the universe. You cannot deny god because in denying you evoke them. Of course Parhanans Yogananda "Autobiography of a Yogi" is just good fun.
A great one for spirituallity in a duel culture, modern world is Malidoma Patrice Some "Ritual: poer, healing, and community." He was African raised and then taken by missionaries and taught xianity. It's a short book (103 pages) and makes the argument that the lack of ritual in the Western world is why our society is unravelling.
For heavier reading try the toa de ching, the mahabarta, the veda's, the analects. Oh the places you'll go.

Thanks for all the help. I'll definitely have to look into these. As for the tantric sex i've been put off that ever since my ex-boss (a "big boned" woman of 60) told me she was really into it *Shudder*

ChuChulainn, I feel your pain. If it makes you feel any better you have to master the spirituallity of tantrism before you move onto the dirty bits. The idea is that you are so disconected from the wants of the physical world that you can indulge your senses and it won't matter to you, you will be unaffected. Left hand and Right hand tantrism.
Thinking about it a really fun way to play test your mythology is to read Neil Gaimen's "American Gods". He drops a lot of gods in there.

What turned me into an agnostic (from being Jewish, not being Christian mind you) was reading the thoughts of a few philosophers about this.

David Hume makes the greatest case for agnosticism, in a chapter called "On Miracles" (I forget which book it's from). He points out that we should beleive in whatever is most probable, and asks: what is more probable, 1) that thousands of years ago a sea split, the Nile turned to blood, the dead were brought back to life, and that white mana fell from the sky for 40 years, or 2) someone just wrote a story in which all of that happened? I tend to think 2, but you should read Hume's arguement yourself, it's presented much better than the way I did it.

Also, for the creator God arguement (all mass must come from something), that still doesn't convince me that any of the major (or minor) religions are true; the "god" that created the universe is nessisarily the same "God" from the bible, korna, etc.

Krishna came to earth in 10 incarnations to help the people
I'm pretty sure this is wrong, but it's something of a nit-pick. My understanding is that Vishnu manifested himself 10 times throughout history; as I recalle Krishna is the 8th incarnation of Vishnu, the 9th being Buddha and the 10th has yet to come. As far as the branches of hinduism I've studied, it is my understanding that Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu, and has thus manifested once. However, Hinduism contains a broad avenue of faiths, so it is possible that in some sects Krishna has descended several times.

1: If you think of it, this look like a god explanation. But don't juge me before im done! Okay, if you look on it in my way, the Bible is a sickly good joke. Obeusly a very smart buch of pepole got together to make it for a thousand of years ago. Not even dreaming of somebody do it serius...getting me? :headbang:
2: the one and only reason of the earth and human's eksisting is "The big bang." :eek: shocked now?
3: If a god had eksisted, then WERE THE FUCK IS HE? :D

Over and out

Shadow

He points out that we should beleive in whatever is most probable.

I think that's why I love it when folks explain biblical events with history and geography etc. Like the parting of the red sea. At that time there was an eruption so many miles away that resulted in XYZ and caused a freakishly low tide allowing the crossing. It's so cool to see what events happned that let someone come along and say, "...uhm, yeah. and then god went ahead and did this. I was there man, I saw it."

1: If you think of it, this look like a god explanation. But don't juge me before im done! Okay, if you look on it in my way, the Bible is a sickly good joke. Obeusly a very smart buch of pepole got together to make it for a thousand of years ago. Not even dreaming of somebody do it serius...getting me? :headbang:
2: the one and only reason of the earth and human's eksisting is "The big bang." :eek: shocked now?
3: If a god had eksisted, then WERE THE FUCK IS HE? :D

Over and out

Shadow

....Buy a dictionary...but yeah i can see what your saying here and i am on the same lines as you on this one ;)

I'm pretty sure this is wrong, but it's something of a nit-pick. .

Eek, I'm so embarassed. I had Krishna on the brain. You are correct. Krishna is the 8th avatar of Vishnu (the only one to come with all the Glory of Vishnu)
for those who care:
1. Natsya the fish, saved the Veda's from drowning
2. Kurma the tortoise, first land the gods stood on
3. Varaha the boar, saved the earth from destruction
4. Narasimha the man-lion, killed a demon king
5.Vamana the dwarf, defeats an evil king
6. Parashurama rama, kills the evil kshatriya race
7. Rama, destroyer of bad naughty demons
8. Krishna rocks
9. Buddha he's the buddah
10 Kalki, the future avatar who will ride the white horse at the end of the Kali Yuga and bring back the golden age. some folks call JC the Kalki

oh, where can I hide my face...

....Buy a dictionary...but yeah i can see what your saying here and i am on the same lines as you on this one ;)

You can tell him to buy a dictionary when, and only when, you learn the difference between "your" and "you're".

¬¬;

Well, since we seem to be calming down a little, let's flare things up. If I were to say "I do not believe in God because micro-evolution has been proven, yet Creationists continue to state that it is only a theory, arguing for its removal from education, and therefore I see no reason to consider their reasoning on any other issue valid," what would be your response?

Here you are:

"For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life." John 3:16


I have always loved that quote of the Bible, it really explains it all, and also Chu, Your probably starting at the beginning(old testament) which is a bit harder to understand in its own right. The new testament is easier to comprehend and to further your understanding you might want to buy a life application bible, they really simplify it.

I have always loved that quote of the Bible, it really explains it all, and also Chu, Your probably starting at the beginning(old testament) which is a bit harder to understand in its own right. The new testament is easier to comprehend and to further your understanding you might want to buy a life application bible, they really simplify it.

Yeah a lot of people told me to start with the new testament but I dont see the point in reading it that way. A friend of mine is going to get me some other books she used when she studied the Bible. Thanks for the tips

So given that I don't believe in the Bible's veracity (at least in terms to the 'miraculous and the divine', you're saying I should just have faith? But WHY? Why not have faith in the Koran, or the Rig Vedas, or what have you. I don't understand how, lacking any kind of personal revelation, I could just start believing in a God I've never felt or experienced, based on a book that doesn't seem true to me.
Because Allah didn't die for your sins on the cross. Christ came to Earth to rescue you from your sins, how ever large or numerous they may be. No other deity offers this.

You can't just sit there and wait for a miracle to happen - because it's not. Christ doesn't fall in place for you.

Jesus said: "See, I am waiting at the door and giving the sign; if my voice comes to any man's ears and he makes the door open, I will come in to him, and will take food with him and he with me." Revelation 3:20

You have to open the door.
But that's not an answer to his question. That's just more belief. His question was, why shoud be believe? Why should he believe that there is a "door" to open?

Why do people believe in no God?

I want to know.

I want to know why you (if indeed you are an athiest) are an athiest?

I do not wish to see obvious misuse of the words "logic" and "evolution". These are words of escape, not explanation. I want you to tell me why. Give me reasons. Tell me in unheard-of-ly real reasons why you hold your beliefs as such. Explain to me why you feel in the very pit of your existence that there is no reason to life and why there can be no God (or at least devine power).

I want to know.

Simply because I had personal contact with God. In fact I don't understand how someone could have belief in something they never experienced for themselves. I didn't.