NationStates Jolt Archive

Astrophysicists, cosmologists, etc. have studied something called entropy. Entropy is the fact that everything in the Universe becomes more random and chaotic. What do you think? Do you think its possible to reverse entropy, possible preventing the end of the universe? Discuss.

I really dont think so, as while some things can be reversed in the microscopic level, the "arrow of time" prevents that from happening on the macro scale. So end of the universe it is!

I really dont think so, as while some things can be reversed in the microscopic level, the "arrow of time" prevents that from happening on the macro scale. So end of the universe it is!
I agree with you. All things decay into nothing. It can't be stopped, no matter how advanced we get. But not to worry, people, we will have been dead for an immensely long time when such happens. Unless, of course, a religious end of the world comes into being, and I believe in such also.

Yes. It is called negentropy, and it occurs in the sun, which allows life to keep itself in more complex forms rather than pools of hydrocarbons, in addition to other systems like those in the sun's core. There are even suspicions that this may have something to do with sentience; perhaps sentient computers can be created once negentropy is controllable. And once we can control negentropy, it will be equally as easy to stop the universe's destruction, albeit on an extremely large scale.

Astrophysicists, cosmologists, etc. have studied something called entropy. Entropy is the fact that everything in the Universe becomes more random and chaotic. What do you think? Do you think its possible to reverse entropy, possible preventing the end of the universe? Discuss.

What do I think? It's a fact that entropy always increases. While we can have these imaginary situations, like the perpetual motion machine Einstein came up with with perfect energy transference with the radiation and absorbtion of photons(which still wouldn't work), Entropy always increases is a law. There's no discussion about it.

Astrophysicists, cosmologists, etc. have studied something called entropy. Entropy is the fact that everything in the Universe becomes more random and chaotic. What do you think? Do you think its possible to reverse entropy, possible preventing the end of the universe? Discuss.
i disagree. i think that things eventually become less and less chaotic. and there is no such thing as random(except in extremely few cases)
things started in a state of extreme chaos, the big bang, and have been slowly becoming more organized and structured. such as black holes(i'm not shure what you think, but i regard black holes as one of the most stable of things), and galaxies. even atoms, they formed on their own after the big bang. and what about carbon? it naturally tends to form ordered things.

...things started in a state of extreme chaos, the big bang, and have been slowly becoming more organized and structured...
But only because of energy, of gravitiy and the various other forces. If over time these forces would become weaker, energy would be "lost", then the bounds that organise things would disappear as well.
And if the universe keeps expanding, eventually there'll only be space and the occasional remains of a black hole left.

But only because of energy, of gravitiy and the various other forces. If over time these forces would become weaker, energy would be "lost", then the bounds that organise things would disappear as well.
And if the universe keeps expanding, eventually there'll only be space and the occasional remains of a black hole left.
then things would be more stable. if there is nothing, there is no chaos, correct?

If anyone should know about entropy, it's me. I've spent the last 10,000 years worrying about it. At this rate, the universe will be gone within a billion years. Not that I particularly care, but it's for your sake. I know some nice earthlings (surprise, surprise) and would hate to see them all die. :(

Unfortunately there's very little we can do about it. The problem with entropy is that my mind is getting as chaotic as the universe. It's like trying to reverse aging. Impossible. For me anyway. You'll have to contact the Ruler of the Multiverse for that (and where he is, I can't imagine. :confused: )

If anyone should know about entropy, it's me. I've spent the last 10,000 years worrying about it. At this rate, the universe will be gone within a billion years. Not that I particularly care, but it's for your sake. I know some nice earthlings (surprise, surprise) and would hate to see them all die. :(

Unfortunately there's very little we can do about it. The problem with entropy is that my mind is getting as chaotic as the universe. It's like trying to reverse aging. Impossible. For me anyway. You'll have to contact the Ruler of the Multiverse for that (and where he is, I can't imagine. :confused: )
hmm. i once met the overlord of the 11th dimension. how's he now? or did his boss fire him yet, (he's SUPPOSED to be in charge of keeping that entropy in control, heheh)?

then things would be more stable. if there is nothing, there is no chaos, correct?
Well, I guess so.
At any rate, whether the universe breaks into chaos, or becomes endless emptiness, the result is pretty much the same as far as living in it is concerned.

And I am not a metaphysicist. I have zero knowledge about the intricacies of the processes other than reading a book or two out of interest.

then things would be more stable. if there is nothing, there is no chaos, correct?No. If there is nothing, there is also no order. (There's also no order if there is Czardas. But that's beside the point. ;))

If anyone should know about entropy, it's me. I've spent the last 10,000 years worrying about it. At this rate, the universe will be gone within a billion years. Not that I particularly care, but it's for your sake. I know some nice earthlings (surprise, surprise) and would hate to see them all die. :(

Unfortunately there's very little we can do about it. The problem with entropy is that my mind is getting as chaotic as the universe. It's like trying to reverse aging. Impossible. For me anyway. You'll have to contact the Ruler of the Multiverse for that (and where he is, I can't imagine. :confused: )

Just tell us how to use negentropy and we'll be ok! Come on Czardas, it'll be compensation for not mentioning me in the 3,000th post.

No. If there is nothing, there is also no order. (There's also no order if there is Czardas. But that's beside the point. ;))
i've never thought of it that way, good point.
i just figured that nothing changing means stability, even if there is nothing to be changing.

hmm. i once met the overlord of the 11th dimension. how's he now? or did his boss fire him yet, (he's SUPPOSED to be in charge of keeping that entropy in control, heheh)?Oh, him? He died. The details have never been released, but they have something to do with his refusal to bow down to Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe... :p

Yes, it was a most tragic accident. While apparently regarding a waterfall from the top, he slipped and fell over it. The waterfall's name was Yosemite Falls.

Oh, him? He died. The details have never been released, but they have something to do with his refusal to bow down to Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe... :p

Yes, it was a most tragic accident. While apparently regarding a waterfall from the top, he slipped and fell over it. The waterfall's name was Yosemite Falls.
very unfortunant(of course, i also hated the guy.). i guess we're stuck with entropy then :p

Just tell us how to use negentropy and we'll be ok! Come on Czardas, it'll be compensation for not mentioning me in the 3,000th post.There was a reason why I didn't mention you.... :rolleyes:

i've never thought of it that way, good point.
i just figured that nothing changing means stability, even if there is nothing to be changing.Yeah. I guess. :confused:

According to the laws of Forum Thermodynamics, this thread will soon degenerate into a super-heated religious discussion flamewar.

very unfortunant(of course, i also hated the guy.). i guess we're stuck with entropy then :pYeah, rather a pity.

I haven't gone back to California since....It holds too many unpleasant memories....That and Colodia lives there ;)

is this meant as a serious q?

According to the laws of Forum Thermodynamics, this thread will soon degenerate into a super-heated religious discussion flamewar.Not when I'm running it it won't. :p

Maybe there's hope if the string theories turn out to be right. The humanity, or whatever it'll be known as if it's still around, might just be able to ditch our brane.
Also, although branes wouldn't normally be able to come into contact, it might just have been what made the universe as we know it. Seeing as how it get's bigger and bigger, the brane we're on must get bigger and bigger also. So perhaps this one will get so big it'll touch another one and spawn a new big bang thing? Sure it would kill everything, but it would be the rebirth of the universe :)

This topic is a little odd, isn't it?

is this meant as a serious q?Yes, what do you think? :rolleyes:

This topic is a little odd, isn't it?Rather, I say. :rolleyes:

Maybe there's hope if the string theories turn out to be right. The humanity, or whatever it'll be known as if it's still around, might just be able to ditch our brane.
Also, although branes wouldn't normally be able to come into contact, it might just have been what made the universe as we know it. Seeing as how it get's bigger and bigger, the brane we're on must get bigger and bigger also. So perhaps this one will get so big it'll touch another one and spawn a new big bang thing? Sure it would kill everything, but it would be the rebirth of the universe :)

This topic is a little odd, isn't it?
well, we might not have to do that though, theoretically the branes exist in every universe, since the 11th dimension also does and the brains are in the 11th dimension. perhaps we can find some way to alter the branes from our own universe? i doubt it though.
is this meant as a serious q?
did you expect it to be a serious w?

did you expect it to be a serious w?

or a serious e, i'm easy :p

or a serious e, i'm easy :pE is never serious.

Did you know guys that the law of Thermodynamics (physics) and the Information Theory (computer science) use similar formulas?
As entropy increases, so does the amount of information; that is, it requires MORE information to describe an entropic system than an organized system.

For example:
1111100000
is less entropic than:
1011000101

The first string can also be compressed more easily.

Some physicians have started reinterpreting thermodynamics and quantum physics by using the information theory. Who knows, maybe they'll come up with some cool ideas.

Did you know guys that the law of Thermodynamics (physics) and the Information Theory (computer science) use similar formulas?
As entropy increases, so does the amount of information; that is, it requires MORE information to describe an entropic system than an organized system.

For example:
1111100000
is less entropic than:
1011000101

The first string can also be compressed more easily.

Some physicians have started reinterpreting thermodynamics and quantum physics by using the information theory. Who knows, maybe they'll come up with some cool ideas.
that doesn't make sense. if the information if equivilent to the entropy, then the higher the number, the more entroy there would be, but you just said that the higher number was less entropic than a lower number.

this thread is good. no flame war arguements, and none of the arguements are really anything that's personal and people are touchy about.

http://interconnected.org/notes/2003/05/last-query.html

Rather good story on the subject.

As to whether or not entropy can be reversed: As far as we know, there is no foreseeable way for it to be reversed on a universal scale. We can decrease entropy on a local scale, ie putting a house that was destroyed by a hurricane back together, but it will always inevitably take more energy to put it back together than it did to knock down.

The laws of thermodynamics apply specifically to heat energy transfer. For instance, if you have an isolated pot of water, the heat energy content will never go up. If you want to increase the heat, you must apply an outside force, which will always use more energy than the pot of water gains. The system of the pot had decreased entropy whereas the overall system of the pot and the heater had increased entropy.

The original statement of the 2nd law specifically was meant to apply to heat flow between two bodies of water that were connected by a heat conducive rod. One body is hotter while one is colder. Heat will always flow from the hotter to the colder, never vice versa.

diane duane is this amazing authoe of a book series, starting with "so you want to be a wizard". basically, the whole purpose of wizards in the universe (not all are human, there are aliens and whales too) is to preserve life, conserve energy, and to prevent entropy. they know that the universe is dying and that entropy does occur, but they fight for slowing it down. it gets rather scientific at times, and the earlier books are more for juveniles, but i still enjoy reading them. i find the take on entropy to be a little unrealistic, since you can't make nothing out of something (and vice versa). if you use up energy, all you are really doing is converting the kinetic force into potential energy or into matter.

that doesn't make sense. if the information if equivilent to the entropy, then the higher the number, the more entroy there would be, but you just said that the higher number was less entropic than a lower number.
I know it's very tricky, but I have re-re-read my message and I think it's OK.

"1011000101" requires more information to encode and is also more entropic (harder to describe, less organized)



PS: A common mistake would be to believe that organized data carries more information than disorganized data. This is actually false, but very counterintuitive. It's not about the information that was PUT in the data in the first place, but about the information REQUIRED to describe the data. This is why zipped files are so compact: they maximize the entropy, so they fit more information.

http://interconnected.org/notes/2003/05/last-query.html

Rather good story on the subject.

As to whether or not entropy can be reversed: As far as we know, there is no foreseeable way for it to be reversed on a universal scale. We can decrease entropy on a local scale, ie putting a house that was destroyed by a hurricane back together, but it will always inevitably take more energy to put it back together than it did to knock down.

The laws of thermodynamics apply specifically to heat energy transfer. For instance, if you have an isolated pot of water, the heat energy content will never go up. If you want to increase the heat, you must apply an outside force, which will always use more energy than the pot of water gains. The system of the pot had decreased entropy whereas the overall system of the pot and the heater had increased entropy.

The original statement of the 2nd law specifically was meant to apply to heat flow between two bodies of water that were connected by a heat conducive rod. One body is hotter while one is colder. Heat will always flow from the hotter to the colder, never vice versa.
unless the pot is completely isolated, such as in it's own universe. also, the energy still remains in the universe, jsut not in the pot. wouldn't what you people are refering to as entropy rather be the equalization of everything? cause all of the energy is spread throughout the universe, and things like heat are going to go to the areas colder than them till no more is colder than another, yet the same total amount remains in the universe. the matter spreads out, yet there is the same amount, things like that.

Closed systems are tricky. :rolleyes:

Entropy is the fact that everything in the Universe becomes more random and chaotic.actually, entropy can be interpreted as the "using up" of all the universe's energy, basically it's slow, wasting death.

I know it's very tricky, but I have re-re-read my message and I think it's OK.

"1011000101" requires more information to encode and is also more entropic (harder to describe, less organized)



PS: A common mistake would be to believe that organized data carries more information than disorganized data. This is actually false, but very counterintuitive. It's not about the information that was PUT in the data in the first place, but about the information REQUIRED to describe the data. This is why zipped files are so compact: they maximize the entropy, so they fit more information.
so it's like those old chinese number thingys? the ones that could describe binary logic in pairs of threes? i'll see if i can find an article on it again, but it's getting late now, so g'night for now.

so it's like those old chinese number thingys? the ones that could describe binary logic in pairs of threes? i'll see if i can find an article on it again, but it's getting late now, so g'night for now.
Are you talking about the yi king symbols, as found on the Korean flag?

Are you talking about the yi king symbols, as found on the Korean flag?I thought those were symbols for fire, water, earth...and so on, not encoded numbers or letters. :confused:

But then what do I know.

What do I think? It's a fact that entropy always increases. While we can have these imaginary situations, like the perpetual motion machine Einstein came up with with perfect energy transference with the radiation and absorbtion of photons(which still wouldn't work), Entropy always increases is a law. There's no discussion about it.

Actually, entropy is the one law which can be broken. It's very rare, but it is not beyond the realms of possibility for molecules to become 'ordered' rather than disordered.

Fortunately, we've got a good several hundred billion years to worry about it. We'll figure out something. If we live that long.

Entropy is the shit. I love it.

Entropy is not the end of all things, its the end of their current state. Matter just gets worn down to its component parts, its atoms reduce themselves to whence they came, and the cycle continues.

Entropy is inescapbable. Embrace it.
-The Downmarching Void

I thought those were symbols for fire, water, earth...and so on, not encoded numbers or letters.

But then what do I know.
Quite frankly, I don't know much in oriental symbols.
I am more interested in the Information Theory field.
I used to work in an inter-disciplinary research team, which combined Information Theory / computer science post-graduates (and researchers), as well as quantum physics PHDs and big shots. I've learned a lot about qubits and other weird things.
But my primary research field was, really, information theory applied to educational systems. Or, how to infer a student's knowledge and understanding.

Quite frankly, I don't know much in oriental symbols.
I am more interested in the Information Theory field.Yeah, ditto.