NationStates Jolt Archive

sociological issue: are these outdated concepts nowadays? do they exist anymore?
is there a crisis regarding these and is this a bad thing?



discuss.

No, they will never be outdated because the very bedrock of society is based upon these things. They hinge on one another, no honor without respect, no respect without honor.

I'll wait for more people before going more in depth.

Yeah, the power of those ideals is falling in certain ways. Our society is "progressing". That means that old values are to be thrown away and that new ways of living should not only be acceptable but to disagree is to be an "idiot". Our society is sliding into moral decay and that includes the old values of respect and honor which are very important.

Yeah, the power of those ideals is falling in certain ways. Our society is "progressing". That means that old values are to be thrown away and that new ways of living should not only be acceptable but to disagree is to be an "idiot". Our society is sliding into moral decay and that includes the old values of respect and honor which are very important.

Progressing in some areas but falling apart in others. However, the areas we are falling apart in are ones critical to social stability and order. Respect and honor were what allowed civilization to form, and to allow them to die would lead to disaster much like the Late Roman Empire saw a breakdown of the old Stoic/Republican virtues that made their Empire great.

Without honor and respect, there is no evolution of communication nor ideas. These are the foundations on which a well-oiled civilization is based.

I'm waiting to hear from the delusionary (but inevitable) asshole who honestly believes that dishonesty and fuck-all attitude will so be the best possible future.

Are we really discussing this? :p

Without honor and respect, there is no evolution of ideas. These are the foundations on which a well-oiled civilization is based.

I'm waiting to hear from the delusionary (but inevitable) asshole who honestly believes that dishonesty and fuck-all attitude will so be the best possible future.

Are we really discussing this? :p

They'll be here sooner or later.

Yes, we are hopefully. It's a change from the usual postings (I think we're in the Christianity-Atheism-Islam cycle now, probably got creationism v. evolution coming up next :eek: )

sociological issue: are these outdated concepts nowadays? do they exist anymore?
is there a crisis regarding these and is this a bad thing?



discuss.


I believe them to be two of the most important qualities in a person. Necessary qualities in anyone I consider a friend.

I just had a situation in which I found out that someone I thought was a friend did not have these two qualities. I find that intolerable on a personal basis. Honor, respect, ethics.

I was so disturbed by his lack of these qualities, which caused him to do some terrible things, that I'm leaving the forums. Specifically because he did not have those qualities. When trust is broken, lies are told, and betrayal and backstabbing become the norm., I think to myself. NO HONOR or RESPECT.

I thought I was the only one who thought these were vital... I'm speaking in a personal sense, not on a large scale, but this also applies on a larger scale too I suppose. Without these qualities, a person is untrustworthy and not worth your time. They are two of the most important qualities in a person and always have been.

Yes, ONE person without these qualities has gotten to me so badly because of the lack of qualities, specifically, which manifested itself in his awful behavior, that I am leaving the forums.

That's how important honor and respect are to me.

sociological issue: are these outdated concepts nowadays? do they exist anymore?
is there a crisis regarding these and is this a bad thing?



discuss.



Wait, Pure Metal, can I guess? London, Manchester, Leeds. Do I get a cookie? (it's in your sig)

They seem like buzzwords to me more than anything.

Wait, Pure Metal, can I guess? London, Manchester, Leeds. Do I get a cookie? (it's in your sig)
i don't know what you're on about but have a cookie anyway :)

They seem like buzzwords to me more than anything.

Terms that describe the foundations of how humans can interact with one another are not 'buzzwords'.

Almost all ethical theories that are not based on the consequences of actions, but are based on the nature of the action and or character of the agent have honour and respect as central themes. By nerly all, I do not just mean our narrow Western virew of things. Buddhism, Taoism, the codes of the Native Peoples of the Americas, eskimos, aborigines, all of thes have honour and respect for the other at the heart.

No they are not buzzwords.

Honor, to me, is one the the much better concepts humanity has developed. It is what binds a person to something greater then himself, it gives us a state of being that prevents us from falling into a chaotic and destructive course of deception, betrayal, hedonism, and meaningless. Without it, ruin will prevail on a personal and global scale.

An opponent of it would probably be willing to point out that this source of restraint is utterly contrived and meaningless, a type of restraint through responsibility with no one to be responsible to. In a way, such a statement is true... which just happens to be the thing that makes honor so wholly remarkable. Honor isn't enforced, it isn't law imposed by some higher power, and it isn't something that exists somehow independent of its participants. Instead, honor is upheld and perpetuated entirely by those who willingly submit themselves to a life of dignified restraint. When you consider the more cynical view of humanity, a picture of weakness and of taking the easiest way out, honor appears to be so profoundly out of character yet somehow it is maintained entirely by the character of humans. It would be a terribly sad thing to see it die; I don't think it will though. It always does seem to make a comeback after its absence tore a civilization to the ground.

No, they will never be outdated because the very bedrock of society is based upon these things. They hinge on one another, no honor without respect, no respect without honor.

I'll wait for more people before going more in depth.

Do they?

Can people respect a bastard? Some do. I have heard CEO's be called one but they respected his abilities.

I tend to think honor is something you have or you don't. People can't give you honor. They also can't take it away.

Honor is a dying thing IMHO.

Do they?

Can people respect a bastard? Some do. I have heard CEO's be called one but they respected his abilities.

I tend to think honor is something you have or you don't. People can't give you honor. They also can't take it away.

Honor is a dying thing IMHO.

But the respect you mention is not true respect. They only respect him while he is strong; however, should his grasp weaken, that CEO will be gone and ridiculed. Those who are powerful can gain respect through fear, but it is only temporary and is lost when they fall.

True respect is given to those who live honorably, because they gain the trust of those who respect them.

Honor won't die, because so much hinges on it. Our system of currency is based on the honor system, trusting the government to keep its value steady. Our military stands entirely on honor, without it it would collapse. Everything we buy comes from us trusting it is safe and of good quality, and you can't trust a dishonorable person.

One can be honorable by simply telling the truth and keeping their word. It isn't difficult to maintain but easy to lose and almost impossible to regain.

They seem like buzzwords to me more than anything.

From reading these fourms it appears that is by far the most prevalent opinion here. Fortunately for us all, these words only seem to gain credibility with maturity, age, responsibility and a steady diet of observing those lacking in their qualities. Most who dislike them now at some point discover their importance, however far too many wait far too long to embrace them.

The idea that something will not die because it is so needed is not by necessity logical. Honor and virtue are dying out, too many people think too highly of themselves and their own glory to accept that greater things than them exist. Honor is necessary for society but because so many do not see the point of society honor will suffer and will have to be regained after a hard lesson.

anyone care to offer some definitions for 'honor' and 'respect'?

not trying to play dumb here or anything, but before we debate whether something exists or not, and its relevance, we are going to have to agree on just what that 'something' is. otherwise we will just be running in circles...

anyways, i have my own sorta concepts for them, but i think they tend to be somewhat situation-dependant, and i _know_ they are vastly different from some people's interpretations of those terms.

anyone care to offer some definitions for 'honor' and 'respect'?

not trying to play dumb here or anything, but before we debate whether something exists or not, and its relevance, we are going to have to agree on just what that 'something' is. otherwise we will just be running in circles...

anyways, i have my own sorta concepts for them, but i think they tend to be somewhat situation-dependant, and i _know_ they are vastly different from some people's interpretations of those terms.

Honor or Honour as you prefer: The dignity, good name and reputation of an individual

Respet: a degree of regard for someone or some entity

Pretty much the way I see them.

sociological issue: are these outdated concepts nowadays? do they exist anymore?
is there a crisis regarding these and is this a bad thing?



discuss.
Honor and respect both exist these days. The problem is that many think they are entitled to both.

Honor and respect both exist these days. The problem is that many think they are entitled to both.

A byproduct of the welfare state?

I think equating Honour and Respect with eachother is foolish. Honour means different things in different societies. What is considered honopurable in one is not in another. The puruit of and near worship of honour has lead to countless wars (WWI for example) and murder, been used as justification for gangrapes (Pakistan) and leads to needless loss of life (Nagasaki & Hiroshima). Honour causes men and women otherwise worthy of utmost respect to take their own lives (Rommel) and made brave young men needlessly lose their lives (Charge of The Light Brigade) and countless other acts of gross stupidity.

Its disgusting to me, to see people confuse something so fundamental and important as Respect with something so false and easily misused as "Honour". Honour is an atavistic concept created to keep the vile and immature in line, because they are too vacant in their souls and minds to grasp that Respect is what keeps society together. Its a tool, a tool that has been and will be abused countless times.

Give me any example of an "Honourable" man doing and "Honourable" thing I can assure you that real cause of those actions was Respect: Respect for others and themselves, Respect for their fellow human beings, for their society, culture, values and ethics. IMO, Honour is bogus, only respect is real and matters. The example given of people hating yet respecting someone like a CEO is fallicious in the extreme. Thats not respect, its fear. Fear thrives where there is no respect. Honour is motivated by fear while respect can exist despite of it, can beat back that fear.

I think equating Honour and Respect with eachother is foolish. Honour means different things in different societies. What is considered honopurable in one is not in another. The puruit of and near worship of honour has lead to countless wars (WWI for example) and murder, been used as justification for gangrapes (Pakistan) and leads to needless loss of life (Nagasaki & Hiroshima). Honour causes men and women otherwise worthy of utmost respect to take their own lives (Rommel) and made brave young men needlessly lose their lives (Charge of The Light Brigade) and countless other acts of gross stupidity.

Its disgusting to me, to see people confuse something so fundamental and important as Respect with something so false and easily misused as "Honour". Honour is an atavistic concept created to keep the vile and immature in line, because they are too vacant in their souls and minds to grasp that Respect is what keeps society together. Its a tool, a tool that has been and will be abused countless times.

Give me any example of an "Honourable" man doing and "Honourable" thing I can assure you that real cause of those actions was Respect: Respect for others and themselves, Respect for their fellow human beings, for their society, culture, values and ethics. IMO, Honour is bogus, only respect is real and matters. The example given of people hating yet respecting someone like a CEO is fallicious in the extreme. Thats not respect, its fear. Fear thrives where there is no respect. Honour is motivated by fear while respect can exist despite of it, can beat back that fear.

I agree, honor is derived from respect sometimes, however it isn't "false". Honor has more to do with one's ideals. Honor is not motivated by fear. I firmly believe it is derived from a person's ethics and morals. Fear has nothing to do with it. Haven't you ever put yourself on the line for someone else, possibly someone you do NOT respect, because of your own ideology, not for respect for yourself, the system, or that person? Because in your heart you know it's the right thing to do? There are certain qualities that some of us still have, and the cynics try to explain away. And I promise you I am far from naive.

Honor is not motivated by fear. Honor DEFIES fear. In every way.

Respect, honor, conscience, compassion, truth. These all exist. And not with a negative consequence pushing it.

Liverbreath']From reading these fourms it appears that is by far the most prevalent opinion here. Fortunately for us all, these words only seem to gain credibility with maturity, age, responsibility and a steady diet of observing those lacking in their qualities. Most who dislike them now at some point discover their importance, however far too many wait far too long to embrace them.

Damn straight!

Respect is a word used nowadays when people cannot openly say "I would destroy you and your backwards views" without fear of reprisal. Respect has lost its power and meaning and become a veil for grudging acceptance.

Honour is only as valuable as your opponent allows. To rely on honour is folly.