NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi guys, I just want a civilised discussion about how good a leader Castro is..

In my opinion, he is a fantastic leader who has improved nearly every aspect of cuba, From its Millitairy to its healthcare, but falls foul to a jealous USA. Tey obviously want Cuba as a base, and he wont give it up. Obviously, cuba is communist, and I apllaud it, but America needs to get over the cold war and communism, it happened 20 years ago, forgive and forget...

Hi guys, I just want a civilised discussion about how good a leader Castro is..

In my opinion, he is a fantastic leader who has improved nearly every aspect of cuba, From its Millitairy to its healthcare, but falls foul to a jealous USA. Tey obviously want Cuba as a base, and he wont give it up. Obviously, cuba is communist, and I apllaud it, but America needs to get over the cold war and communism, it happened 20 years ago, forgive and forget...

one thing's for sure - your going to get a lot of ..differing opinions on this one, taken that most people here are from the U.S. Let's see how long, if at all, this topic can discussed in even a vaguely objective way... :rolleyes:
come on, you southern rednecks, kick the guy around!
...there it went.

Overal, I think Castro is a decent leader. Good things have been said about him, but alot more bad things have been said. However, many of the negatives are unintelegent: I hate him because he is a commie (And thats bad why?), I hate him because he is a facist (No he's not-this is also the funniest because the US prefered the facists in cuba.)
I like Castro because:
He has done alot to improve the conditions of the poorest in Cuba (recently doubled minimum wage).
He has done an excellent job with education, especially for how poor the country is. Cuba ranks beter than Canada did in native language skills (they read/write spanish better than we do English), and was at par with Canada with Math and the Sciences (FYI Canada does better than the US in these areas).
Medicine is in decent supply and is quite modern (really hard to do since they cannot get medicine from the US, they have to basicly invent it again in Cuba). Also Fidel is quite old but is in outstanding shape, when he broke his leg it has healed quite quickly. That would not happen in any other Carribian contries, or probably even Canada.
Supposed to be slowly returnning rights and freedoms to his people.
The economy did not colapse when the USSR did(most of Cubas income was from the USSR).
Some of the bad of Castros:
Harsh on Criminals
Limitide access to internet-Govt choice not lack of the tech
There are alot of other facts but both sides stories have holes in it.

He genuinely cares about his people and his country. That's the basis to being a good leader. Castro improved Cuba in all aspects as you said and he's earned my respect. I went to Cuba a couple of times, it rocks :D

Meh, his people aren't starving. That counts in his favor. Too bad he can't open up a dialog with the US government. Trade with us might boost his economy and make life easier on his people.

Lets see, Castro has managed to keep Cuba afloat, and in much better shape than other nearby places, while being shunned by the united states. he may be a harsh dictator, but least it has a stable government, and that is more than can be said for hundreds of countries. A democracy is not the best government solely based on teh fact it is a democracy, there are other forms of government which are jsut as viable

He is an idealist, and as such has at least the saving grace of being honest. However as a leader of a country he has not exactly been a raging success. Cuba has everything that it could need to be economically and socially successful. It has resources, people who are willing to work, an advantageous geographical position. All it lacks is the freedom to succeed. It is aa country that has been held in thrall to the ideals of a small group with a very charismatic leader.

If you consider the number of people that try to leave Cuba each day to get to the USA, then it is difficult to see Castro as a great leader. If you consider the standard of living of the average Cuban, it is impossible to see Castro as a great leader.

It all depends on how you look at the situation. Personally I believe that he could have been a great leader if he had allowed genuine free and open elections some 20 years ago. As it is he goes down in my book as one of the less bad dictators along with Tito and Franco.

He's certainly a survivor, and he's very good at this game.
I wonder how competent are people around him (ministers, generals, managers), maybe they help a lot in managing the place.
Of course, the embargo has helped him -- justifiable brinkmanship is as efficient as a freezer to keep a regime from rotting too fast and falling apart.
Otherwise -- I hear a lot of bad things about him, and I hear also some "not so bad things". I think people are unhappy under his rule, even though they aren't so poor or desperate. Maybe that's how he managed to keep them "controlled" -- by making them just unhappy enough.

If you consider the number of people that try to leave Cuba each day to get to the USA, then it is difficult to see Castro as a great leader.
I have to call this into question (agreeing with the rest of your post)...because people from all over the world leave their countries every year to try to come to the US. Does that put the leaders of those countries in the same league as Castro?

well given the punishment placed on private enterprise by communism, a natural objection would be that

a)people are not encouraged to become entrepreneurs, which means that

b)product choices/quality are pretty bad (maybe except for the cigars and sandwiches -- aren't they still driving 1950s cars?)

and

c)the economy, overall, is not that great

Anyway...you'll be getting the hysterical anti-Castro posts any time now...

I have to call this into question (agreeing with the rest of your post)...because people from all over the world leave their countries every year to try to come to the US. Does that put the leaders of those countries in the same league as Castro?

Look at the percentage of the population that are putting their lives at risk to leave. Then come back to me.

There is always international migration, at a steady background level when there are no travelling restrictions. Why though have more people tried to cross into Florida from Cuba than tried to cross the Berlin wall?

Anyone that is bad enough to make people want their 1950 Chevy Pick-up Truch ninety miles accross the gulf of mexico can't be a very good leader :p

Look at the percentage of the population that are putting their lives at risk to leave. Then come back to me.

There is always international migration, at a steady background level when there are no travelling restrictions. Why though have more people tried to cross into Florida from Cuba than tried to cross the Berlin wall?
Hey....plenty of people are risking life and limb to get out of Haiti too...but no one ever talks about Haiti. THINK OF THE HAITIANS!!!! :D

They are using 1950's cars because that's all they can get, trade embargo, remember. The econonmy is still growing, due to investment from other countries, mainly Canada and the UK. Most important (to me) Cuba has the best Doctor/patient ration in the world, much less than Canada, the US or other western nations.

Look, what I'm saying is...the amount of Cubans leaving Cuba are not doing it necessarily to escape a terrible situation. They want to improve it, and see the US as the land of milk and honey. Much as many Mexicans do.

Hey....plenty of people are risking life and limb to get out of Haiti too...but no one ever talks about Haiti. THINK OF THE HAITIANS!!!! :D

What's wrong with Haitians, you anti-Haitian bigot?!

hehe

Cuba has everything that it could need to be economically and socially successful. It has resources, people who are willing to work, an advantageous geographical position. All it lacks is the freedom to succeed. It is aa country that has been held in thrall to the ideals of a small group with a very charismatic leader.
You're kidding right? The only source of Cuba's moeny was the USSR, and it's dead. The USA REFUSES to trade or even allow visitation to Cuba by US citizens. I'm pretty sure that kind of hurts the ability of Cuba to succeed

Look, what I'm saying is...the amount of Cubans leaving Cuba are not doing it necessarily to escape a terrible situation. They want to improve it, and see the US as the land of milk and honey. Much as many Mexicans do.

I could agree with you if they were not risking their lives to make the crossing. It is not the same as a Mexican strolling across an unwatched border somewhere. There is a particularly nasty stretch of water to cross, that has taken thousands of lives. This is why I compared it to the Berlin wall.

Ihatevacations']You're kidding right? The only source of Cuba's moeny was the USSR, and it's dead. The USA REFUSES to trade or even allow visitation to Cuba by US citizens. I'm pretty sure that kind of hurts the ability of Cuba to succeed

No I am not kidding. Cuba has resources to spare. It simply has no markets open to it due to its leadership. That was the point I was making. I guess you may have misunderstood.

Ihatevacations']You're kidding right? The only source of Cuba's moeny was the USSR, and it's dead. The USA REFUSES to trade or even allow visitation to Cuba by US citizens. I'm pretty sure that kind of hurts the ability of Cuba to succeed
The rest of the world buys Cuban sugar, Cuban rum, Cuban cigars, and whatever else they produce. As far as I've heard they have a better economy than Jamaica does, better than the Dominican republic, better than most countries in their region.

The rest of the world buys Cuban sugar, Cuban rum, Cuban cigars, and whatever else they produce. As far as I've heard they have a better economy than Jamaica does, better than the Dominican republic, better than most countries in their region.
And hey...it's the one country you can vacation in that isn't full of yanquis:)

Ihatevacations']You're kidding right? The only source of Cuba's moeny was the USSR, and it's dead. The USA REFUSES to trade or even allow visitation to Cuba by US citizens. I'm pretty sure that kind of hurts the ability of Cuba to succeed

Do Mexicans and Central/South Americans covet Cuban cigars? Why does their entire trade solvency depend on their (in)ability to trade with the United States?

I think Fidel Castro has done great things for his country, and i definately dont hate him because he is a communist. I think he is a good leader who genuinly care sofr his country

Ihatevacations']You're kidding right? The only source of Cuba's moeny was the USSR, and it's dead. The USA REFUSES to trade or even allow visitation to Cuba by US citizens. I'm pretty sure that kind of hurts the ability of Cuba to succeed

Like it or not, the US is not the centre of the world in regards to Castro. Over the past decade and a half, he has been reshifting his economy towards organic agriculture and tourism allowing his country to weather an economic crisis.
Things are getting even better for Castro as he looks now more toward willing trade partners in Canada and the EU. He is mocking the US, in this regard.

In my overall opinion, the Cuban people could do a whole lot worse than Castro. Those who remember probably do not want a return to the US puppet days of Fulgencio Batista.

I just finished making a t-shirt that says "castro is my homeboy". No joke.
I'm a communist, but I don't think that he is a very good one. He and his brother are the only private landowners in Cuba, I think. Many Cubans were worse off before Castro, though, and if the Americanos would stop being such hosers, they'd do just fine. Castro has been good for the Cuban people.
If you're going on vacation to Cuba and want to help out the Cuban people, take spark plugs and school supplies. :)
Drink real Cuban rum, or none at all. Bacardi is one of the biggest supporters of the embargo on Cuba.

What if someone went out saying he wanted a civilised discussion about how good a leader Hitler was?

Don't frown, Castro and Che are responsible for the death of some 75 000 people together. They are murderers, brutal murderers who even enjoyed torturing some of their victims (especially Che).

If Cuba is soooo wonderful, how come people risk their lives to get of the pretty little island? Go figure, I've never heard of Americans risking their lives to sail to Cuba on small rafts.

Other then that, Cuba is a dictatorship. Say what you want about the phony elections, its a fact that Cuba is a dictatorship. The goverment is in COMPLETE control of the media, the radio, the internet infact they are in control of every aspect of life on Cuba. They regulate down to inches, for example its illegal to be gay in Cuba. Illegal.

And lets not talk about the horrible prisons they lock up the freedom fighters in. Freedom fighters who unlike Castro don't use violence, but try and change the goverment in Cuba through peaceful means. Peaceful means supported by the constitution, which Castro doesn't give a shit about since he's a dictator.

Then there's the actions of the Cuban goverment during the cold war. Such as interference in Ethopia, which caused Ethopia to go into Somalia and because of that Somalia is still a war-zone today. Yes, Che is to blame for the suffering in Somalia. And in Congo.

And there's the local neighbourhood milities in Cuba, funded by the goverment, who's only job is to rough people up. People that doesn't support the goverment, or commit criminal offenses (like being gay). Talk about a nice judicial system. The courts don't work either, since they are 99% communist party members and completely controlled by the goverment. 99% of all "high-up" positions within the Cuban economy go to communist party members. You can't get anywhere if your a communist party member.
Even worse if you're working against the dictatorship Castro put into power. If you don't support the goverment, you might find police harrasing the doctors who treat your children...


Do yourselfs a favor and stop dreaming about the communist wonderland island, because it doesn't exist. Its an awful dictatorship, and you're supporting it.

When Castro dies, there is a good 75% chacne the country will be totally fucked

If Cuba is soooo wonderful, how come people risk their lives to get of the pretty little island? Go figure, I've never heard of Americans risking their lives to sail to Cuba on small rafts.


I know of some Americans who risked prison to VACATION there.

And you base that wonderful assumption on what? Sillyness?

Or maybe you aren't aware that there are alot of established pro-democracy organisations that could organise elections really fast. REAL elections.

The myth about the US being bent on invading Cuba and making it a puppet state is just, sad.

Marric']I know of some Americans who risked prison to VACATION there.

If they could afford a vacation, they must have been somewhat wealthy and have good living standards. The fleeing Cubans don't.

If Cuba is soooo wonderful, how come people risk their lives to get of the pretty little island? Go figure, I've never heard of Americans risking their lives to sail to Cuba on small rafts.
True story. No one risks their lives to move to a country plagued by food shortages. Why is a total mystery....
If you'll excuse me, I'm gon go move to the Sudan.

well given the punishment placed on private enterprise by communism, a natural objection would be that

a)people are not encouraged to become entrepreneurs, which means that

b)product choices/quality are pretty bad (maybe except for the cigars and sandwiches -- aren't they still driving 1950s cars?)

and

c)the economy, overall, is not that great

Look to the embargo, regarding most of these issues. And their continued use of half-century-old automobiles is also a geat testament to making things go a long, long way in adverse conditions. In North America, we'll throw a car away after less than a decade.

Cuba is an authoritarian dictatorship. If you like that form of government then Castro is your man. Poverty is widespread, it's not a happy nation.

"In Cuba, talking to an American -- and especially a journalist -- about politics and other subjects can be illegal under a broad law that carries prison terms ranging from three to 20 years."
http://havanajournal.com/politics_comments/A1053_0_5_0_M/

"Economy - overview:
The government continues to balance the need for economic loosening against a desire for firm political control. It has undertaken limited reforms to increase enterprise efficiency and alleviate serious shortages of food, consumer goods, and services. A major feature of the economy is the dichotomy between relatively efficient export enclaves and inefficient domestic sectors. The average Cuban's standard of living remains at a lower level than before the depression of the 1990s, which was caused by the loss of Soviet aid and domestic inefficiencies. The government reluctantly allows a large dollar market sector, fueled by tourism and remittances from Cubans abroad."

Contrary to popular belief, the US does trade with Cuba. President Bush signed it into law in 2000 - give credit where due:

Imports - partners:
Spain 16.3%, Venezuela 12.3%, Italy 8.4%, US 8.3% , China 7.5%, Canada 5.3%, Mexico 5.2%, France 4.8% (2003 est.)
http://www.classbrain.com/art_cr/publish/cuba_economy.shtml

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VMjzTAOfQi8J:www.fas.usda.gov/itp/cuba/cuba.html+us+trade+with+cuba&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

...
I like Castro because:
He has done alot to improve the conditions of the poorest in Cuba (recently doubled minimum wage).
He has done an excellent job with education, especially for how poor the country is. Cuba ranks beter than Canada did in native language skills (they read/write spanish better than we do English), and was at par with Canada with Math and the Sciences (FYI Canada does better than the US in these areas).
Medicine is in decent supply and is quite modern (really hard to do since they cannot get medicine from the US, they have to basicly invent it again in Cuba). Also Fidel is quite old but is in outstanding shape, when he broke his leg it has healed quite quickly. That would not happen in any other Carribian contries, or probably even Canada.
Supposed to be slowly returnning rights and freedoms to his people.
The economy did not colapse when the USSR did(most of Cubas income was from the USSR).
Some of the bad of Castros:
Harsh on Criminals
Limitide access to internet-Govt choice not lack of the tech
There are alot of other facts but both sides stories have holes in it.

"Limited access to internet" isn't half of it - Cubans don't have access to ANYTHING the government doesn't SPECIFICALLY want to give them access to. I would rather be completely uneducated and sick without hope than have everything I'm told be controlled by the government.

I can't believe there are so many people talking about how great Castro is. Don't you realize that if you were in Cuba, we couldn't even be having this debate? Don't your personal liberties mean anything to you?

Life in Cuba has improved since Castro came to power just like it has in almost all other countries in that time - because civilization advances.

I serioulsy can't even believe there are so many Castro supporters here.


"In Cuba, talking to an American -- and especially a journalist -- about politics and other subjects can be illegal under a broad law that carries prison terms ranging from three to 20 years."

I would die of any variety of untreated diseases before I lived like that.

The head of state who counselled Knrushchev in October 1962 to commence an all-out nuclear attack upon the USA is, by definition, out of place among the all-time greats of statesmanship.

He has done alot to improve the conditions of the poorest in Cuba (recently doubled minimum wage).


He has done an excellent job with education, especially for how poor the country is. Cuba ranks beter than Canada did in native language skills (they read/write spanish better than we do English), and was at par with Canada with Math and the Sciences (FYI Canada does better than the US in these areas).


Medicine is in decent supply and is quite modern (really hard to do since they cannot get medicine from the US, they have to basicly invent it again in Cuba). Also Fidel is quite old but is in outstanding shape, when he broke his leg it has healed quite quickly. That would not happen in any other Carribian contries, or probably even Canada.


Supposed to be slowly returnning rights and freedoms to his people.


The economy did not colapse when the USSR did(most of Cubas income was from the USSR).


Ah yes, the better to buy the extremely limited supply of cooking utensils available to them through the generous effort of the government.

Of course, if they can't actually use their education to do something productive, that's of no consequence.

And you are told this by whom, normal cubans not being paraded in front of you by the government? Somehow I doubt it.

*sniggers*

It was barely above subsistence level then, it's not like it could have fallen far.

Oh Castro is an excellent leader. Cubans go through many troubles but that is because of the unjust embargo imposed on Cuba by the Imperialist Yankees. Cubans are very proud of their country and are happy to have el comandante leading them in battle against the evil Americans who should be invading any day now. Their homes may be crumbling around them but Cubans don't care because they know how to read and write and their children can go to school while they go out to look for tourists to screw. If Cubans get sick they don't have to worry about anything because thanks to el comandante they can go see a doctor for free and then call their Terrorist Miami Mafia relatives to send them whatever medicine they may need.

Food is no problem either. The Cuban government gives everyone a little book called a “libreta de racionamiento” that guarantees that all Cuban will get to eat a certain amount of calories per day and gives them the right to buy items of basic necessity whenever they become available at the stores. Some greedy counterrevolutionaries have been stealing food and other luxury items like soap and toilet paper from the hotels but luckily the police have been cracking down on these criminals. There is no need for these people to eat steak and chicken when they have rice and beans at home. They don’t realize the government is doing them a favor by limiting the amount of calories they eat a day. The government simply doesn’t want Cubans to become fat and disgusting like those gluttonous Americans. There is also no need to steal things like soap or toilet paper when water alone works just fine and they have perfectly good newspaper at home they can use to wipe once they are done reading. These people should be thankful they can read!!!!

The only people that are leaving Cuba are the greedy gusanos. They have been brainwashed by their friends and family from the Miami Mafia that return with dollars and exaggerated stories of all the things they have. Greedy people may be impressed by such meaningless things but the true revolutionaries know better. They don’t need material things to be happy. Like our comrade Fidel I say to those people “We don’t want you, we don’t need you!” except when you bring back your dirty money.

Hasta la victoria siempre! Patria o muerte, Venceremos!

Cuba has better education and doctors than the US! Ha ha, sanctions are weak. The new alliance between Chavez and Castro is good also. The US is protecting a terrorist but because they are on their side they don't mind! They don't mind Uzbekistan either, hypocrites!

It shouldn't be forgotten that Cuba is a dictatorship. When the revolution came it was arguably a good thing due to the government in place before, but it doesn't change the fact that a dictatorship isn't the best way to run a country. There are massive sanctions on freedom.

That said, there are worse dictatorships out there. He has managed to keep the economy afloat, in whatever form its in. Healthcare and education levels are also good.

Remeber Cuba is part of the 'axis of evil' or so says bushy. Cuba like Yugoslavia before it has no one of the same power as castro to take control after he dies, i fear the US will use his death as an excuse to go and 'take control' of the country as it inevitable slides and then it can use it as a base to threaten the people of venezula to hand over oil which belongs to it people not multinationals

on anything that floats, rafts, inner tubes, floating trucks and cars, across 90 miles of shark infested waters?
La Habana Cuba.

Would anyone want to live under President Bush for life,
under Castro for life, under Blair for life?

On a thread on should the US cease the embargo on Cuba
a poster posted the embargo is not about regime change nor should it be.

I disagree since Cuba is a one party state, with no choices of diffrent political party offering diffrent economic political and social views like we have in other nations of origin present on nationstates. That is the problem.

No matter how corupt or croocket some politicians might be.

Like i have said before I can go and on so this is it for now.

Anyway...you'll be getting the hysterical anti-Castro posts any time now...

Interesting. Anti-Castro posters are hysterical. Now that they are pre labeled we can be assured everyone agrees with us.

Having a stable government totally makes up for the fact that he's a psychotic dictator who imprisons journalists and abuses his excessive power. Good job, guys.

Liverbreath']Interesting. Anti-Castro posters are hysterical. Now that they are pre labeled we can be assured everyone agrees with us.
Nothing in Sinuhue's post implied that. I would suggest that you learn how to read and interpret English, it might help you be less ignorant about the posts that are made.

There are Anti-Castro posts and there are hysterical Anti-Castro posts. The two are not mapped one to one. The latter is a subset of the former. That the second will be arriving any time now, does not imply that the first do not exist, does it?

Having a stable government totally makes up for the fact that he's a psychotic dictator who imprisons journalists and abuses his excessive power. Good job, guys.
So its better to have a country in anarachy with random gang in power and people dieing because no one can or will do crap? I dictatorship may not be the best government, but it is one.

into their own nations hotels with dollars, euros or cuban
pesos thier national currency and do they have a legal process through their one party representatives to ask
that that law be changed?

As a native cuban I can say they cannot ask that that law be changed , that is also the problem.

Ihatevacations']So its better to have a country in anarachy with random gang in power and people dieing because no one can or will do crap? I dictatorship may not be the best government, but it is one.


Or maybe it's better to have secret option number three, a limited government that respects constitutional limits and allows free elections.

Seriously, the "well, he does horrible things but at least it's a government" argument is retarded. You're essentially saying, "Well, A is bad, but B is worse, so therefore A is good."

All aboard the False dichotomy train.

Or maybe it's better to have secret option number three, a limited government that respects constitutional limits and allows free elections.

Seriously, the "well, he does horrible things but at least it's a government" argument is retarded. You're essentially saying, "Well, A is bad, but B is worse, so therefore A is good."

All aboard the False dichotomy train.
In a strict comparison between "b" and "a," the worst one is the bad one, and the less worse one is the good one. Now of course that is a strict comparison, everything is nto a strict comparison. But you can bet your ass when Castro keels over (sometime in teh next millenium :rolleyes: ) it probably won't be some happy go lucking democratic republic popping into power. Not every country can create a perfect democracy over night like you would like to pretend they can. It took the US years and that was because they CHOSE it.

Castro isn't even communist. He's a corrupt dictatorial leader working under the fascade of communism. He controls all the facets of his people's lives. Citizens can't leave the country, there's a stipend on what and how much food you can eat.

When people say that the economy in Cuba is improving, that basically means the average person can eat two meager meals a day, instead of just one.

People say he has a great healthcare system. But he doesn't have any medicine.

People say he keeps control of the country. That it's better then anarchy. Well, so is democracy, but I don't see him giving up the reigns until he croaks.

Ihatevacations']In a strict comparison between "b" and "a," the worst one is the bad one, and the less worse one is the good one. Now of course that is a strict comparison, everything is nto a strict comparison. But you can bet your ass when Castro keels over (sometime in teh next millenium :rolleyes: ) it probably won't be some happy go lucking democratic republic popping into power. Not every country can create a perfect democracy over night like you would like to pretend they can. It took the US years and that was because they CHOSE it.

Yes, if you're confining the argument to "choose between a power mad dictator and complete chaos" then, yes, Castro is good. It's still a false dilemma.

And who the hell knows what the Cuban people might choose? They've never really been given a choice in their government. And where did I say a modern democracy could emerge overnight? I'm just stating it's preferable to a tinpot communist dictatorship, which should be obvious to anyone who is not an angsty high school student in a Che t-shirt.

Yes, if you're confining the argument to "choose between a power mad dictator and complete chaos" then, yes, Castro is good. It's still a false dilemma.

And who the hell knows what the Cuban people might choose? They've never really been given a choice in their government. And where did I say a modern democracy could emerge overnight? I'm just stating it's preferable to a tinpot communist dictatorship, which should be obvious to anyone who is not an angsty high school student in a Che t-shirt.
Oh so communsti dictatorships are bad but US set up and supported dictatorships are ok until they tell the US to go screw themselves?

Its nto that false of a dillemma, lets jsut wait until castro dies though

If I remember it correctly, wasnt the democracy before castro, simply a gang of hand puppets for the US?

People say he keeps control of the country. That it's better then anarchy. Well, so is democracy, but I don't see him giving up the reigns until he croaks.
Democracy is NOT always a choice, are you another "USA, FUCK YEAH!" person or whatever? Sometimes all you get is an ongoing anarchy/pseudo-government without power or a fascist dictatorship

If I remember it correctly, wasnt the democracy before castro, simply a gang of hand puppets for the US?
Yes, but they were a less corrupt gang than the people before them. Then the revolution came and you now have the current situation.

Ihatevacations']Oh so communsti dictatorships are bad but US set up and supported dictatorships are ok until they tell the US to go screw themselves?




Please point to the part where I said any dictatorship, homegrown or backed by a foreign power, was okay.

I never said anything even remotely related to that.
Ihatevacations']

lets jsut wait until castro dies though



It can't come soon enough.

Ihatevacations']Democracy is NOT always a choice, are you another "USA, FUCK YEAH!" person or whatever?

Why are you under the impression that democracy is an exclusively American thing? Almost every successful country in the world is a democracy in some form. I don't see why advocating representative government makes you a "USA FUCK YEAH" person, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.


Ihatevacations']Sometimes all you get is an ongoing anarchy/pseudo-government without power or a fascist dictatorship

Please prove this. Are you saying there are nations where the people are fundamentally incapable of governing themselves?

Castro's a huge hypocrite. He always claims to hate "imperialism," yet that never stops from him from intervening in other countries' affairs.

Please prove this. Are you saying there are nations where the people are fundamentally incapable of governing themselves?
I'm saying places like what I described exist in: south and central america, africa and the carribbean

Ihatevacations']I'm saying places like what I described exist in: south and central america, africa and the carribbean

So you're saying that democracy in those places is impossible and we should just give up and accept corrupt, brutal dictators? Because I would say no, no such place exists.

So you're saying that democracy in those places is impossible and we should just give up and accept corrupt, brutal dictators? Because I would say no, no such place exists.
if a dictatorship is what it takes to stabilize a nation we shouldn't try to take them out of power or "starve" them to death because we don't like it

Ihatevacations']if a dictatorship is what it takes to stabilize a nation we shouldn't try to take them out of power or "starve" them to death because we don't like it

"Stability" is the argument of every tyrant, and has been since the dawn of time. Even Mussolini made the trains run on time. That does not excuse oppression.

So yes, trying to take them out of power is exactly what we should do. Perhaps not with overt military force, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with putting moral, economic, and political pressure on dictatorships to reform.

I can't believe that apologists for left wing (or right wing, for that matter) dictatorships even exist anymore.

I'm tired with talknig to you, the total of your posts have been solely in this topic, tehrefore I am done

Ihatevacations']I'm tired with talknig to you, the total of your posts have been solely in this topic, tehrefore I am doneNice reasoning there, Spock.
I agree with you, but....
All you got to do is take out the "therefore", and you will no longer sound like a condescending ass.

Nice reasoning there, Spock.
I agree with you, but....
All you got to do is take out the "therefore", and you will no longer sound like a condescending ass.
No, that was pretty much the point. Apparently the majority of his existanceon this forum has just been to be against me on this topic, so therefore i quit

Ihatevacations']No, that was pretty much the point. Apparently the majority of his existanceon this forum has just been to be against me on this topic, so therefore i quit


The logic of this one is absolutely astounding. My "existanceon" on this forum is too short, therefore I am wrong. :rolleyes:

Go look up "ad hom" as a logical fallacy, you just landed one like a champ.

The logic of this one is absolutely astounding. My "existanceon" on this forum is too short, therefore I am wrong. :rolleyes:

Go look up "ad hom" as a logical fallacy, you just landed one like a champ.
That makes you what? 2nd place?

Ihatevacations']That makes you what? 2nd place?
I was gon argue your last post, but didn't think it was worth it to perpetuate this meaningless arguement. Unfortunatly, it does not appear that you need my help.
Rather than escalate this, could I just point out that you said (twice) "I'm done."

Ihatevacations']That makes you what? 2nd place?

Yes, in terms of logical fallacies, I am definitely second place to you. A very distant second. I'm not sure you want to brag about winning that, though.

most people always ignore my questions on this subject,
I was going to post some intresting facts but I have lost
faith.

No wonder cuban americans feel like the world hates them
and they are alone.
La Habana Cuba.

Someone said on this thread the anti Castro attacks are not based on anything inteligent or something like that.

Granted the embargo has not worked but we believe that it is because the real democratic nations of the world do not care.

Cuba trades with the EU, Canada, Mexico, and others,
and the cuban peoples lives are not any better for it that
they still have to ask their relatives oversees for everything. The embargo has not worked but guess what
trade and tourists has not worked either.


Cuba trades with al these nations and about
2 million tourists visit each year, and the government
has not changed its ways, so much for the argument that
trade and tourist will change the governments ways.

If the cuban people in Cuba could propose laws to thier
government to change laws they do not agree with then there would be no problem just like the americans and europeans do in their nations of origin, but they cant because the nature of the government.

That is what we have been trying to make the real
democratic nations of the world understand.

one thing's for sure - your going to get a lot of ..differing opinions on this one, taken that most people here are from the U.S. Let's see how long, if at all, this topic can discussed in even a vaguely objective way... :rolleyes:
come on, you southern rednecks, kick the guy around!
...there it went.

Being a "redneck" american, I might offer my opinion.
I have great respect for Fidel Castro.
Cuba's economy while struggling does extremely well in the face of internationaly imposed embargoes.
Take for comparison the United States, we force the rest of the planet
to trade on OUR terms, and declare war upon those who refuse.
Of course we are a superpower.
Remove the sanctions from Cuba, and we shall see her shine like the brightest star.

Being a "redneck" american, I might offer my opinion.
I have great respect for Fidel Castro.
Cuba's economy while struggling does extremely well in the face of internationaly imposed embargoes.
Even if the economy was so good that Cubans didn't try to float over the Gulf in old pickups, there's more to the equation than the economy. There are human rights issues, voting issues, false imprisonment issues, etc

Take for comparison the United States, we force the rest of the planet
to trade on OUR terms, and declare war upon those who refuse.
Of course we are a superpower.

Right, right...I must have missed our latest war with Japan/China/the EU over the trade deficit. :rolleyes: This is simply not true, you're just being dramatic.


Remove the sanctions from Cuba, and we shall see her shine like the brightest star. Oh, good Lord.

Liverbreath']Interesting. Anti-Castro posters are hysterical. Now that they are pre labeled we can be assured everyone agrees with us.
Nope. Nice try though. I said, "you'll be getting the hysterical anti-Castro posts..." NOT, "You'll be getting posts from hysterical anti-Castroites". See the difference? The subject. One, the posts, two, the posters.

Castro's a huge hypocrite. He always claims to hate "imperialism," yet that never stops from him from intervening in other countries' affairs.
Ah. Sorry...I missed the last time Cuba invaded another country, or used its economic and military might to directly influence the government of another nation.

Ah. Sorry...I missed the last time Cuba invaded another country, or used its economic and military might to directly influence the government of another nation.

Cuba has been involved in Angola, as well as supporting Communist rebels all over the place in Latin America. Now, granted, every country in the world has done stuff like this, so this alone does not make Cuba "bad", but it's not like they haven't been involved.

Cuba has been involved in Angola, as well as supporting Communist rebels all over the place in Latin America. Now, granted, every country in the world has done stuff like this, so this alone does not make Cuba "bad", but it's not like they haven't been involved.
...Angola? I don't think that is really a major problem having Castro mess around in random african countries, I don't think he can make it worse

Ihatevacations']...Angola? I don't think that is really a major problem having Castro mess around in random african countries, I don't think he can make it worse

Whether he made it worse or not is another debate entirely. I'm just saying it's not like he's never been directly involved in another country's affairs.

Cuba has been involved in Angola, as well as supporting Communist rebels all over the place in Latin America. Now, granted, every country in the world has done stuff like this, so this alone does not make Cuba "bad", but it's not like they haven't been involved.
Not particularly successfully. And I'd hardly call these attempts "imperialism".

In any case, one more little comment...I hate the suggestion that all Cubans are miserable and hate life in Cuba. It doesn't matter what country you live in, what situation you find yourself in, people manage to find happiness everywhere. And plenty of Cubans love their country, despite its faults, and have no intention of leaving. Not "are too afraid to leave" but "Don't WANT to leave". This is not an island of people desperate to get away.

And frankly, if I had to choose between being born in Cuba and being born in Haiti? I'd choose Cuba over the 'democracy and freedom' in Haiti, any day.

Ah. Sorry...I missed the last time Cuba invaded another country, or used its economic and military might to directly influence the government of another nation.

I call 50,000 troops in Angola meddling on behalf of his Soviet master. He kept his hand in politics in South and Central America as well.

"For several decades, Cuba received a large Soviet subsidy, whereby Cuba provided the Soviet Union with sugar and the Soviets provided Cuba with petroleum. Part of this oil was consumed by Cuba, while the remainder was sold on the world market. Cuba supported communist movements throughout Latin America (Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia and Chile, among others) and Africa (Angola, Mozambique and Ethiopia). In Angola alone, Cuba had over 50,000 troops. Castro stated at the first Congress of the Communist Party of Cuba in December of 1975 that "Without the decisive, steady, and generous aid of the Soviet people, our country could not have survived the confrontation with imperialism"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba

I call 50,000 troops in Angola meddling on behalf of his Soviet master. He kept his hand in politics in South and Central America as well.


Meh. Like I said. I missed it. I was born in 1977...damn:)

Not particularly successfully. And I'd hardly call these attempts "imperialism".

In any case, one more little comment...I hate the suggestion that all Cubans are miserable and hate life in Cuba. It doesn't matter what country you live in, what situation you find yourself in, people manage to find happiness everywhere. And plenty of Cubans love their country, despite its faults, and have no intention of leaving. Not "are too afraid to leave" but "Don't WANT to leave". This is not an island of people desperate to get away.

And frankly, if I had to choose between being born in Cuba and being born in Haiti? I'd choose Cuba over the 'democracy and freedom' in Haiti, any day.

I'm sure that people also found what joy they could under the Soviet Union. Likewise, I'm sure most would rather have been born in Communist Russia than in Communist China. Still, that doesn't say much for the USSR. It was still a shithole, and likewise for Cuba.

I'm sure that people also found what joy they could under the Soviet Union. Likewise, I'm sure most would rather have been born in Communist Russia than in Communist China. Still, that doesn't say much for the USSR. It was still a shithole, and likewise for Cuba.
Cool it, living in the USSR wasn't a piece of cake, but the country wasn't a shithole either. BTW, I hail from a poor family, not from the nomenklatura.

Not particularly successfully. And I'd hardly call these attempts "imperialism".


What would you call it, then? A day trip abroad?


In any case, one more little comment...I hate the suggestion that all Cubans are miserable and hate life in Cuba. It doesn't matter what country you live in, what situation you find yourself in, people manage to find happiness everywhere. And plenty of Cubans love their country, despite its faults, and have no intention of leaving. Not "are too afraid to leave" but "Don't WANT to leave". This is not an island of people desperate to get away.
Of course, some Cubans are happy with their lives in spite of Castro. That's hardly a selling point for him, though.

Cool it, living in the USSR wasn't a piece of cake, but the country wasn't a shithole either. BTW, I hail from a poor family, not from the nomenklatura.

Depends on what period you're talking about. The USSR veered often between repression and (slight) liberalization.

Depends on what period you're talking about. The USSR veered often between repression and (slight) liberalization.
I'm talking about the period from 1956 to 1991. That's the opinion of my parents and myself.

'Veered often?' What episodes do you exactly mean?

Not particularly successfully. And I'd hardly call these attempts "imperialism".

In any case, one more little comment...I hate the suggestion that all Cubans are miserable and hate life in Cuba. It doesn't matter what country you live in, what situation you find yourself in, people manage to find happiness everywhere. And plenty of Cubans love their country, despite its faults, and have no intention of leaving. Not "are too afraid to leave" but "Don't WANT to leave". This is not an island of people desperate to get away.

And frankly, if I had to choose between being born in Cuba and being born in Haiti? I'd choose Cuba over the 'democracy and freedom' in Haiti, any day.

I had passed over this, but after a re-read I agree with you - and it raises an interesting point.

If we assume that millions of Cubans are content enough as citizens - they've got a plot of land, enough food, protection from crime, adequate but not extravagant selection of consumer goods. Given a peasant mindset (I don't mean that derogatorily - I'm referring to someone of simple needs like myself) what else could the US offer them? Their lives are adequate. Is it up to us to force a form of govt. and more choices on them? That's a theoretical social viewpoint that seems valid enough. Let them make their own demands of govt. for change that they need.

If people that weren't happy there were allowed to leave, would that not be an equitable arrangement for all Cubans? Rather than overthrowing the government just agree to take their dissidents (with some self-protective measures, i.e. no criminals, etc.) and pressure the castro govt. politically to do so, i.e. "Mister Castro, tear down that wall."

I am no fan of communism nor of Castro. I tend to think that Cuba will move toward the US as soon as the dude dies. But hypothetically, why not accept their freedom lovers and let Cuba be?

I'm talking about the period from 1956 to 1991. That's the opinion of my parents and myself.

'Veered often?' What episodes do you exactly mean?

I mean basically that it swung back and forth with each new leader after Stalin. Um, except for Chernenko. I don't know enough about him to make a comment.

When I say the USSR was a shithole, it's not in the sense that other countries are, eg Ethiopia. They still had a mostly European standard of living. But you couldn't have paid me to live there.

I mean basically that it swung back and forth with each new leader after Stalin. Um, except for Chernenko. I don't know enough about him to make a comment.

When I say the USSR was a shithole, it's not in the sense that other countries are, eg Ethiopia. They still had a mostly European standard of living. But you couldn't have paid me to live there.
Not quite. Brezhev tightened reins a little, but the common people weren't affected in any manner by his actions, only the intellectuals. Andropov's crackdown on petty offences against the laws had an impact upon the society, but both the crackdown and the impact were short-lived. Chernenko's time hung heavy, not because of repressions, but because of all-pervading gloom and hopelessness. With Gorbachev came the end of the Empire.