NationStates Jolt Archive

EDIT:
See here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9215464&postcount=111)
This is a better description of what I was trying to say.

*sigh*

Words aren't coming together on this one. I'm less-than-impressed, though.

No, its not that bad, but still no need for this type of thread

so your saying it isnt 'that' bad just because less people died? you are a stupid person if you count tragedies by deathcounts

I think this type of thread is important, because it provides a little perspective. But, like Dobbsworld, I'm having a little problem articulating what I want to say about it. Give me a few and I'll try to get it together.

This is sorta like saying "so, you have breast cancer..I dont think its that bad there are people who have brain cancer". Or "yeah, you 2nd degree burns over 95% of your body, but thats not that bad because there are people who get 3rd degree burns over 95% of their body".

Yeah, some terrorists blew up our subway system and a bus full of people. 37 die, over 700 wounded. It's a horror, but let's compare it to the big figures;

IBC counts 22787 minimum dead Iraqi civilians since may 2003 - and that's not including those killed in the war itself,

AIDS will kill over 3.5 million Africans in the next decade,

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

And people wonder why extremists hate the west? You wonder why they want to bomb our skyscrapers and kill our people?

Obviously there are more, in depth figures and statistics and descriptions, but I just dug these up quickly.

Thoughts? Am I a "terrorist arab raghead" who "needs to be shot so the world can live in democracy" or a "flagburner"?
Or am I right?
1) Those same terrorists who bombed London want to inflict more death and suffering on the Iraqi people through suicide bombings, so I don't think you can use Iraq as a justification for their actions.

2) Funny how the terrorist vermin struck on the day that Blair and the other G8 leaders were meeting to try to tackle the problems of Africa. I don't really think they give a crap about the death and suffering of African people.

3) See number 2.

I know why extremists hate the west. Their daughter might see an episode of Buffy the vampire slayer and decide to wear tight leather pants and make her own decisions. Clearly we must be stopped. :rolleyes:

I made this point in the main London bombing thread last night, and no-one majorly complained. I have to say I agree with Hogsweat on this one. What London faced on thursday morning was nothing compared to what entire countries face on a daily basis. It is harder for us to bear because is happened to us, not to someone we only see on a TV screen. Thats why we need to look at the bigger picture, to remind ourselves that they are still people on the other end of the telly.
So thanks Hogsweat.

What a stupid thread! :eek: Are deaths just a number?

so your saying it isnt 'that' bad just because less people died? you are a stupid person if you count tragedies by deathcounts

Personally it's more of a tragedy if a million Africans die than if ten londoners die. Get a little perspective on the world. Thanks for this thread btw Hogsweat.

No, it's like saying 37 people die and suddenly everyones shouting "REVENGE, KILL THE PAKIS!" But thousands die each year and noone cares. Actually, that's what I was trying to say.

EDIT; Thank you everyone who is trying to understand my point of view.

Would you be saying this if, and I don't wish this on you, one of your relatives was on the number 30 bus?

You could put a scale on anything I suppose, but not, IMO, on the day after a major terrorist attack

If I thought for one moment you actually wanted a fight or adverse reaction, the Moderation forum would get a new thread. Can I assume that that this not to be the case?

One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.

Not another one of these. For gods sake, what's wrong with caring more about your own people than some other people who do not influence you in this world.

I dont care that aids and hunger will kill all these people. Nor do i care about what happens to people in some god-forsaken country that plays no part in the real world (i.e. most of africa). What i do care about is when people want to come over here with the pure intent to murder the people of my country.

And before you say "Oh but what about iraq? Bet you never knew tens of thousands had died in the war", i did know. Its hard not to when these liberals are hammering it down out throats every two seconds. They just seem to forget that more died when saddam was there. And, that the displacement of the marsh arabs in iraq, and now the displacement of the Nbedele peoples has killed in the order of hundreds of thousands.

And still, i dont care. I care what happens to my people first. Once all my people are safe from harm, THEN i will care about the world. This atrocity needs retaliation, not more politically correct dogma. They hate the west because we tried to bring a little civilisation to a peoples and area that have made no advancement for thousands of years. Who's more fascist?

And no, your just plain wrong.

OK. Let me see. We have ordinary everyday people going to work in a city that is not in a war zone, that is not part of a civil conflict and suddenly they are ripped limb from limb by the detonation of high explosives placed specifically for this purpose. So, only some 38 people have been confirmed to have been killed in this way, this time in London. It is therefore not too bad!

Any life lost in a conflict is a tragedy. It is not a case of "oh well thousands have died elsewhere so this does not matter". It matters, and it matters a lot. The people that died, the people that were injured have families, have loved ones. That those that are dying every day in the world also have, does not lessen this fact.

It is an ongoing tragedy that there are parts of the world where one's life is perpetually at risk. What makes this act so much more tragic is that it has added one more place to that list.

if you count hundreds of people suffering as not really that bad, your'e right about the bombings

I don't want an adverse reaction. I made this thread to see who agrees with me, and who is out for blood. Maybe none of my relatives or friends were in that group of 37 that died, but let me ask you; Do YOU have any relatives living in poverty? I know I do.

There's a big difference between the deaths in London and the deaths of poor people throughout the world. The people who died yesterday in London were MURDERED. The poor people who die every day are not killed out of malice. In fact the world is actively trying to save them. What do you think the focus of the G8 meeting is about?

I'm not trying to say it doesn't matter. It matters all the time when people die.What I am trying to say is that people should get some perspective. It's absolutely disgusting, IMO, that people think that where you come from gives you a priority over anyone else.

Hogsweat! Keep up! The death toll is over FIFTY! That's right. FIFTY! Not 37. The number is also expected to continue to climb. This has got to be the lowest move I've seen on your part.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1188383,00.html I hope this helps you with abit more facts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/homepage/int/ne/nhdr/h1/t/-/news/1/hi/uk/4663931.stm And this one too.

There's a big difference between the deaths in London and the deaths of poor people throughout the world. The people who died yesterday in London were MURDERED. The poor people who die every day are not killed out of malice. In fact the world is actively trying to save them. What do you think the focus of the G8 meeting is about?
K, so no-one gets murdered in Robert Mugabe's regime, or China's One Party State... Murder is the intentional loss of life. And not helping someone is intentional.

EDIT: sorry, I wasn't aware of the right numbers. I have been away and the last I heard of it, eight hours ago, was 37.

IBC counts 22787 minimum dead Iraqi civilians since may 2003 - and that's not including those killed in the war itself,

Most killed by terriorist bombings

AIDS will kill over 3.5 million Africans in the next decade,

How is AIDS and the spread of AIDS (a preventable disease) a western caused problem.

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

Most of poverty is caused by repressive regimes to thier own people.

Can you explain why muslim extremists can blame "the west" for the evils that themselves and dictators in other countries do to thier own people?

There's a big difference between the deaths in London and the deaths of poor people throughout the world. The people who died yesterday in London were MURDERED. The poor people who die every day are not killed out of malice. In fact the world is actively trying to save them. What do you think the focus of the G8 meeting is about?

And the West kills people by continuing it's trade policies. They may not pull the trigger but it's just as sure a kill.

One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic.

very nice quote and one that was perfect for a thread like this.

Hogsweat of course it matters where you live it does give priority because its not just yourself you worry about when its near home. You worry for every single person you know. but when it happens where you do not know anyone it doesnt hit you as hard. And the attack was murder not a casualty of war or a disease this was murder to frighten the people of the world.

K, so no-one gets murdered in Robert Mugabe's regime, or China's One Party State... Murder is the intentional loss of life. And not helping someone is intentional.
So what do you suggest? Should we invade Zimbabwe? With who's army? Can you guarantee the loss of life in that war will be less than the loss of life that Mugabe's policies will cause?


Things aren't as simple as you seem to think. Sometimes we don't help because we can't. Sometimes the available resources just aren't there. Sometimes the available resources exist but can't be delivered to those who need them (somali warlords stealing food aid anybody?)

The world is a much more complex place than your post would indicate.

I am not saying that poverty is not terrible. I have registered for the Make Poverty History campaign, e-mailed Tony Blair etc. And I have met people who live in poverty, although none of my family are. My point is that ANY loss of life at the hand of another is TOO BAD!!

I respect all opinions, but working with people who were worried about loved ones, and worring about contacts and friends etc, means I have the opinion that this thread should not have been started so soon after, and that you are comparing apples with oranges.

There's a big difference between the deaths in London and the deaths of poor people throughout the world. The people who died yesterday in London were MURDERED. The poor people who die every day are not killed out of malice. In fact the world is actively trying to save them. What do you think the focus of the G8 meeting is about?
IMHO quite a lot of 'the poor' are killed, not necessarily by intent, but by indifference. For all the rhetoric that rich leaders speak, I still feel they are after votes, not an end to poverty. That, however is not a debate for this thread.

mmmm. Let's take Iran for an example; everyone knows the "human rights abuses" and the "absence" in democracy in Iran. The reason being, it's not part of Islamic CULTURE for women to have a bigger say than men. It's not part of Islamic culture for everyone to vote for who they want in charge. It's part of the west's ignorance and beliefs that the world should be a democracy that makes our world unstable. You can force democracy on someone, you know. Not everyone wants it.

Yeah, some terrorists blew up our subway system and a bus full of people. 37 die, over 700 wounded. It's a horror, but let's compare it to the big figures;

1. IBC counts 22787 minimum dead Iraqi civilians since may 2003 - and that's not including those killed in the war itself,

2. AIDS will kill over 3.5 million Africans in the next decade,

3. According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

And people wonder why extremists hate the west? You wonder why they want to bomb our skyscrapers and kill our people?

Obviously there are more, in depth figures and statistics and descriptions, but I just dug these up quickly.

Thoughts? Am I a "terrorist arab raghead" who "needs to be shot so the world can live in democracy" or a "flagburner"?
Or am I right?

1. Killed by both sides, mainly by the terrorist side.
2. This is the west's problem how? Or are you whining about drug companies and how they charge money for a product that took quite a bit of time and resources to develop?
3. Yes they do, your point? That will occur until they live in an above-subsistence level economy, and the fastest way to do that is to introduce free-market principles.



None of the above, just woefully short-sighted.

And the West kills people by continuing it's trade policies. They may not pull the trigger but it's just as sure a kill.
You mean the trade policies that were under review in the G8 meeting that the terrorists decied to disrupt?

So what do you suggest? Should we invade Zimbabwe? With who's army? Can you guarantee the loss of life in that war will be less than the loss of life that Mugabe's policies will cause?


Things aren't as simple as you seem to think. Sometimes we don't help because we can't. Sometimes the available resources just aren't there. Sometimes the available resources exist but can't be delivered to those who need them (somali warlords stealing food aid anybody?)

The world is a much more complex place than your post would indicate.

Alright then, so it's okay to invade Iraq but not Zimbabwe? What's the difference, they were both maniac regimes. Hold on, who's got crude oils by the barrelfull...but that's not a discussion for this thread. And neither is what you're leading into.

mmmm. Let's take Iran for an example; everyone knows the "human rights abuses" and the "absence" in democracy in Iran. The reason being, it's not part of Islamic CULTURE for women to have a bigger say than men. It's not part of Islamic culture for everyone to vote for who they want in charge. It's part of the west's ignorance and beliefs that the world should be a democracy that makes our world unstable. You can force democracy on someone, you know. Not everyone wants it.
Sooo, all those women protesting recently in Iran are an aberration? Right, pull the other one.

How is AIDS and the spread of AIDS (a preventable disease) a western caused problem. By restricting the drugs to ones made byt US companies costing 6x what it would if India or Brazil was producing them.

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

Most of poverty is caused by repressive regimes to thier own people. Blue Sky thinking or what? Trade policies, remmenants of colonial problems (insurgent groups etc contribute plenty to the ongoing problem. Corrupt dictators are just another thing on the list. If we care enough to get Saddam, why not Mugabe?

Can you explain why muslim extremists can blame "the west" for the evils that themselves and dictators in other countries do to thier own people? Biggest bully on the block and not afraid to show it. That's about the description of the US position in the Middle East. Makes for a very easy scapegoat.

In bold.

So what do you suggest? Should we invade Zimbabwe? With who's army? Can you guarantee the loss of life in that war will be less than the loss of life that Mugabe's policies will cause?

Isn't Zimbabwe part of the Commonwealth? Couldn't the British Government do something in that case?

Isn't Zimbabwe part of the Commonwealth? Couldn't the British Government do something in that case?

You think the Commonwealth has power *collapses in hysterics*.

Isn't Zimbabwe part of the Commonwealth? Couldn't the British Government do something in that case?
Zimbabwe withdrew from the Commonwealth of Nations in 2003.

Alright then, so it's okay to invade Iraq but not Zimbabwe? What's the difference, they were both maniac regimes. Hold on, who's got crude oils by the barrelfull...but that's not a discussion for this thread. And neither is what you're leading into.
I was against the invasion of Iraq. I'm not going to say it was a good decision, but we're there now, and we can't leave until the nation is stable. That means we can't just move all those troops to Zimbabwe.

People deal with the consequences of their decisions. One of the consequences of invading Iraq was that we wouldn't have sufficient troops avalable to intervene elsewhere for several years. Even if we did Mugabe would be on the back burner. Somalia is racking up a higher body count.

I'll say it again. The world isn't as simple as your posts make it appear.

Sooo, all those women protesting recently in Iran are an aberration? Right, pull the other one.
And what do you think 9/11, Madrid, and London where signs of people saying?
You try swat the wasp, and it stings you back, runs off, and you try to swat it again. The west is just harming itself by involving it's people with fundamentalists.

Zimbabwe withdrew from the Commonwealth of Nations in 2003.

Thanks Olantia. Didn't know that :)

*sighs*

...Still at a loss, here. Though comparing seven bombs that killed Londoners directly to loss of life indirectly attributed to trade imbalances strikes me as puerile drivel.

Maybe I'll have this one figured out in a bit.

Still... no points for demagoguery, not in my books anyway.

DCD, I'm not saying we invade Zimbabwe, right now anyway. I'm just saying that it was interesting Bush chose Iraq instead of Zimbabwe. If anything, less people would die in Zimbabwe than Iraq.

I'm off to play BF2. Back later.

And the West kills people by continuing it's trade policies. They may not pull the trigger but it's just as sure a kill.
Are the Saudis impoverished? I don't think so. But their country is a breeding ground for terrorists and a hotbed of religious extremism.

mmmm. Let's take Iran for an example; everyone knows the "human rights abuses" and the "absence" in democracy in Iran. The reason being, it's not part of Islamic CULTURE for women to have a bigger say than men. It's not part of Islamic culture for everyone to vote for who they want in charge. It's part of the west's ignorance and beliefs that the world should be a democracy that makes our world unstable. You can force democracy on someone, you know. Not everyone wants it.
And that's why Islamic culture needs to be reformed. Preferably from inside, but from outside if necessary.

Yep. I beleive in cultural imperialism if it means more democracy and more personal freedom for people.

Yeah, some terrorists blew up our subway system and a bus full of people. 37 die, over 700 wounded. It's a horror, but let's compare it to the big figures;

IBC counts 22787 minimum dead Iraqi civilians since may 2003 - and that's not including those killed in the war itself,

AIDS will kill over 3.5 million Africans in the next decade,

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

And people wonder why extremists hate the west? You wonder why they want to bomb our skyscrapers and kill our people?

Obviously there are more, in depth figures and statistics and descriptions, but I just dug these up quickly.

Thoughts? Am I a "terrorist arab raghead" who "needs to be shot so the world can live in democracy" or a "flagburner"?
Or am I right?

Would you just do us all a favour and shut the fuck up. You have no have idea what these people who lost family,friends and work colleagues are going through. Is That supposed to comfort them? I'm a Londoner myself. The people who died yesterday didn't go to war with Iraq, Didn't do anything relating to the problems in Africa. They were innocen people on thier way to work. They were just trying to make a living to support themselves and thier families.

So next time you act all judgemental, look at it from some one elses perpective.

Yeah, some terrorists blew up our subway system and a bus full of people. 37 die, over 700 wounded. It's a horror, but let's compare it to the big figures;

IBC counts 22787 minimum dead Iraqi civilians since may 2003 - and that's not including those killed in the war itself,

AIDS will kill over 3.5 million Africans in the next decade,

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

And people wonder why extremists hate the west? You wonder why they want to bomb our skyscrapers and kill our people?

Obviously there are more, in depth figures and statistics and descriptions, but I just dug these up quickly.

Thoughts? Am I a "terrorist arab raghead" who "needs to be shot so the world can live in democracy" or a "flagburner"?
Or am I right?
You're neither. Don't flatter yourself. You're just another idiot recycling the usual propaganda nonsense.

What you're doing is an equivalent of coming to a funeral of your friend's father and telling him something like "I am very sorry for your loss, but thousands of people died in traffic accidents across the globe today, so your loss is no big deal really".

Your right, I have no idea. I bet you have no idea what it's like not to drink tea and eat butter on crumpets every day for . . . three hundred and sixty days? Maybe, if you ate half a piece of stale bread and some muddy water every day for a year you'd see my POV.

Not that i've done this.

...

...Still at a loss, here. Though comparing seven bombs that killed Londoners directly to loss of life indirectly attributed to trade imbalances strikes me as puerile drivel.

...
It reminded me of Chaplin's Monsier Verdoux, who tried to vindicate murders committed by him by comparing his deeds with millions of deaths caused by war...

Are the Saudis impoverished? I don't think so. But their country is a breeding ground for terrorists and a hotbed of religious extremism.

IIRC many Saudis are indeed impoverished. The house of Saud is rich, as are a few other top bods and some parts of society are decently off but there is still a major underclass.

Would you just do us all a favour and shut the fuck up. You have no have idea what these people who lost family,friends and work colleagues are going through. Is That supposed to comfort them? I'm a Londoner myself. The people who died yesterday didn't go to war with Iraq, Didn't do anything relating to the problems in Africa. They were innocen people on thier way to work. They were just trying to make a living to support themselves and thier families.

So next time you act all judgemental, look at it from some one elses perpective.

I agree one hundred percent with this comment.

I would also add that those of you living in the first world that are trying to earn brownie points by worryiong about the third world and posting this on an internet forum are the biggest load of hypocrits that exist in the world. If you were bothered about us, you would be doing something, not trying to look cool. But when it comes to time to put the sugar on your morning ceral you don't think about it do you.

Anyway. The third world needs to put its own house in order before it can complain about unfair treatment by the West. I know, I live here in the third world. When we do get our act together, we can do things. We just have to eliminate the political corruption and the syphonong off of the wealth of the third world by a few corrupt individuals. So, stop using us as an excuse to not mourn your own loss.

Your right, I have no idea. I bet you have no idea what it's like not to drink tea and eat butter on crumpets every day for . . . three hundred and sixty days? Maybe, if you ate half a piece of stale bread and some muddy water every day for a year you'd see my POV.

Not that i've done this.

Excuse me, but WTF is your point, then? Maybe, if you ate half a piece of stale bread and some muddy water every day for a year you'd see someone else's POV - 'cause it sure as Hell isn't yours.

Your right, I have no idea. I bet you have no idea what it's like not to drink tea and eat butter on crumpets every day for . . . three hundred and sixty days?

You also don't know the calendar. Its 365 days or 366 during leap years :D I also drink tea whenever I feel like it. Your not scoring points.

Maybe, if you ate half a piece of stale bread and some muddy water every day for a year you'd see my POV.

No I don't think I will. I'm sorry for the poor people but I also blame their national governments for doing nothing for them. Before making a speech, look at the national governments of these people.

You're neither. Don't flatter yourself. You're just another idiot recycling the usual propaganda nonsense.

What you're doing is an equivalent of coming to a funeral of your friend's father and telling him something like "I am very sorry for your loss, but thousands of people died in traffic accidents across the globe today, so your loss is no big deal really".

And you are going "Sorry all you thousands of grieving Africans but a few dozen people died in London yesterday."

And you are going "Sorry all you thousands of grieving Africans but a few dozen people died in London yesterday."
Nope, I don't compare one to another at all. Each death has significance of its own, and lumping them together for promoting a silly political cause is plain disrespectful to both the Londoners and the Africans who died.

What you're doing is an equivalent of coming to a funeral of your friend's father and telling him something like "I am very sorry for your loss, but thousands of people died in traffic accidents across the globe today, so your loss is no big deal really".

Precisely, Womble. Thanks for that.

This is an awful thing to say. Sure, there are other problems, many of them major, most of them underpublicised and so common that people are jaded to them. Sure, world poverty, disease, despotic rulers etc are major problems and I abhor them. Sure, the war in Iraq and Afganistan killed many of innocents and doesn't get the publicity it deserves, but just coz there are less deaths doesn;t make it not REALLY that bad.

And you are going "Sorry all you thousands of grieving Africans but a few dozen people died in London yesterday."

Am I the only one who is seeing something wrong here? I feel for both victims and do for both families. What happened to regarding both peoples as equal and beautiful? Or are we just picking sides now..

This is just as stupid as the question "who do you love more, your mom or your dad"!

IIRC many Saudis are indeed impoverished. The house of Saud is rich, as are a few other top bods and some parts of society are decently off but there is still a major underclass.
The 9/11 terrorist of Saudi origin were definitely not part of that underclass - they had money to travel and to stufdy in the universities of the West. Maybe they were not from Rolls-Royce and caviar set, but Osama is.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why "Cultural Relativity" is a moral dead end.
Goesingthall

*sighs*

...Still at a loss, here. Though comparing seven bombs that killed Londoners directly to loss of life indirectly attributed to trade imbalances strikes me as puerile drivel.

Maybe I'll have this one figured out in a bit.

Still... no points for demagoguery, not in my books anyway.

Agreed!

The 9/11 terrorist of Saudi origin were definitely not part of that underclass - they had money to travel and to stufdy in the universities of the West. Maybe they were not from Rolls-Royce and caviar set, but Osama is.
Ah yes, but when was the last time Osama pulled off a suicide attack himself? ;)
The guys that blow themselves up tend to be recruited from the less wealthy parts of society, because its easier to indoctrinate them. The leaders tend to be wealthy, that coming with a bit of logistical know-how.

Can I just clear something up here. Hogsweat is not saying that the 50+ deaths in london are insignificant. On the contrary, he is saying that they are very significant however, we should not allow ourselves to forget that people die elsewhere as well.

Can I just clear something up here. Hogsweat is not saying that the 50+ deaths in london are insignificant. On the contrary, he is saying that they are very significant however, we should not allow ourselves to forget that people die elsewhere as well.
This interpretation is not consistent with what he says, definitely not with the headline he gave his thread.

This interpretation is not consistent with what he says, definitely not with the headline he gave his thread.
Fair enough about the title, but judging by his arguments I'm not trying to say it doesn't matter. It matters all the time when people die.What I am trying to say is that people should get some perspective. It's absolutely disgusting, IMO, that people think that where you come from gives you a priority over anyone else.
I'd say my interpretation was fairly accurate. Perhaps Hogsweat would like to comment?

Hogsweat is not saying that the 50+ deaths in london are insignificant. On the contrary, he is saying that they are very significant however, we should not allow ourselves to forget that people die elsewhere as well.

So he's making a point of stating the obvious? Oh wow. I really needed that.

Can I just clear something up here. Hogsweat is not saying that the 50+ deaths in london are insignificant. On the contrary, he is saying that they are very significant however, we should not allow ourselves to forget that people die elsewhere as well.

that would be fine, but deaths anywhere shouldn't be belittled. if hogsweat agrees with your comment then this thread should probably end there.

So he's making a point of stating the obvious? Oh wow. I really needed that.
Well, sometimes the obvious needs stating, in case people forget.*shrug*

No, it's like saying 37 people die and suddenly everyones shouting "REVENGE, KILL THE PAKIS!" But thousands die each year and noone cares. Actually, that's what I was trying to say.

EDIT; Thank you everyone who is trying to understand my point of view.

I understand what you are trying to convey by this thread but would like to point out that you are "invalidating" others grief, shock ect. This is something many professionals are trained not to do. Example: A woman who has to have a breast/ or breasts removed due to cancer is most likely going to grieve her loss. Grief is a healthy and normal mechanism which help us humans cope with unforeseen/unwanted changes. To say to this woman ... well at least you are not going to die or it is just some extra tissue...no real loss, interrupts the healthy grieving process. You may be at the point to focus again on all the world but others are not .Just keep this in mind. Part of grief is expressing anger....most of those people saying kill all the Paki's don't truly mean it... they are just at a different stage in their grief. You should google some grief studies. They may interest you. Thank you for lending me your ear for a little while. :)

Fair enough about the title, but judging by his arguments
His arguments make no sense whatsoever. Why is it disgusting that people find what happens in their home country more important that abroad? How is it different than the perfectly natural phenomena of caring more for your mother than for any other random woman out there, or worrying more about your house than a random building in another city?

Besides, I think he was more honest in the headline.

Well, sometimes the obvious needs stating, in case people forget.*shrug*

I have to agree with dobbsworld (damn! Third time in less than 24 hours I agree with a liberal or is it now 4?)!

The obvious doesn't need to be stated. We all picked up on where he was going but it still doesn't wash. We know people die day after day. All I have to do is turn on the news and I hear of people dying in Vehicle Accidents or house fires, or by stabbing and what have you. Sorry but that is a fact of life. Maybe if the governments of these people actually do something instead of lining their pockets, then maybe we can start to eliminate poverty.

Well, I'm gonna leave it up to Hogsweat. Maybe I misinterpreted him, but I don't think I did (at the minute).

*hands over Most Tasteless Thread of the Year Award*

Yeah, some terrorists blew up our subway system and a bus full of people. 37 die, over 700 wounded. It's a horror, but let's compare it to the big figures;

IBC counts 22787 minimum dead Iraqi civilians since may 2003 - and that's not including those killed in the war itself,

AIDS will kill over 3.5 million Africans in the next decade,

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

And people wonder why extremists hate the west? You wonder why they want to bomb our skyscrapers and kill our people?

Obviously there are more, in depth figures and statistics and descriptions, but I just dug these up quickly.

Thoughts? Am I a "terrorist arab raghead" who "needs to be shot so the world can live in democracy" or a "flagburner"?
Or am I right?

Those are all very 'nice' figures. But think about it. Anywhere that innocent people die for no reason is a tragedy. Understand?

Well, sometimes the obvious needs stating, in case people forget.*shrug*

Feh. It's patronizing, at best.

Well its a confirmed terrorist attack and ofcourse there will be retaliation. Just wondering which country will take the beating and how will it affect the
rest of the world. It will never end unless world eating aliens are real and the human race must stand as one....

ahh Hate when will it end.

Explain to me again how people dying of poverty or AIDS justify the murder of a few dozen London commuters?

I'm surprised you haven't gotten flamed more for this thread. Not only is it in exceedingly poor taste, it's also clear to me that you didn't think things out before you posted it.

the british deaths ARE just as bad. because 1 death (or a group of deaths, ie the 37) is a tragedy, but a million deaths (or the 3.5million aids deaths) is a statistic.

special thanks to joseph stalin on that one.

Your right, I have no idea. I bet you have no idea what it's like not to drink tea and eat butter on crumpets every day for . . . three hundred and sixty days? Maybe, if you ate half a piece of stale bread and some muddy water every day for a year you'd see my POV.

Not that i've done this.

Excuse me, but who exactly do you think you are? What right have you to dismiss this act of savagery because you wish to make some sort of political point? What is the need? People do die in Africa everyday and this is a tradegy that millions of British people have tried to end through the Make Poverty History campaign and for years before it. Don't you dare tell me that yesterday was "not that bad." Yesterday saw, irrespective of how many people died, indescriminate killing on the street's of my capital on a day when we were hosting a summit aimed at ending world poverty. It also saw Muslims across our nation fear for their own safety. Yesterday was a disaster, not just for the families of the dead, of which there are more yet to be removed from the tube and yet to be identified from the remains of the bus, but for the entire human race, as it marks a moment when the attempts to end one of history's great injustices was cruelly damaged.
And at what point has any British figure moaned or lamented or actually complained that what happened yesterday was worse than what happens in Africa eeryday? They didnt. We just got on with things as best we could, mindful of the important business in Gleneagles. Your point of view is foolish and insensitive and I suggest you take a good look at what you have said.

Not only is it in exceedingly poor taste, it's also clear to me that you didn't think things out before you posted it.

It's also clear to me that Hogsweat makes contentious, sensationalistic threads and runs away. Wotta guy.

This is why it's such a big deal, and why American casualties mean 45 times more than Iraqi casualties:

2,000 Massacred Congolese = 500 Drowned Bangladeshis = 45 Fire-bombed Iraqis = 12 Carbombed Europeans = 1 Snipered American

Well its a confirmed terrorist attack and ofcourse there will be retaliation. Just wondering which country will take the beating and how will it affect the
rest of the world. It will never end unless world eating aliens are real and the human race must stand as one....

ahh Hate when will it end.

That's exactly true. But it puzzles me. You and I needn't hate, but that's not good enough. There must ALWAYS be a division. Religion, race, anything. If you and your brother were the last people on Earth, would you be able to stay together? It's so sad... pick yourselves out of the dirt, if you haven't sunk already.

This is why it's such a big deal, and why American casualties mean 45 times more than Iraqi casualties:

2,000 Massacred Congolese = 500 Drowned Bangladeshis = 45 Fire-bombed Iraqis = 12 Carbombed Europeans = 1 Snipered American

So, this is all about whose suffering has more intrinsic value? I don't think so.

So, this is all about whose suffering has more intrinsic value? I don't think so.

Have you not been reading the thread?

It's also clear to me that Hogsweat makes contentious, sensationalistic threads and runs away. Wotta guy.

I think I'm still in shock from agreeing with Dobbsworld ... there goes my sense of self-worth :p

I smell "Surrender Monkey" all over the initial posting.

Welcome to your new religion. Thankfully, it is one of PEACE. Through superior explosives.

:)

I smell "Surrender Monkey" all over the initial posting.

Welcome to your new religion. Thankfully, it is one of PEACE. Through superior explosives.

:)

You mean, it's a religion of SUBMISSION . . . at the point of a gun :mp5:

Seems to me hogsweat would prefer to live on his knees rather than die on his feet. Of course, that's the worst-case scenario. I think it's more likely he'll die on his knees, while those who stand strong will live.

Have you not been reading the thread?

Look, I don't assign a greater value to the life of a Londoner than I do to that of a Rwandan or Zimbabwean. But to dismiss out of hand the actual murder of human beings because it pales statistically when compared to ongoing suffering in the Third World, I'll choose to take exception.

Pulling numbers out of a hat, i.e. one American = 2,000 Congolese or 50,000 Chinese or half a Japanese, is just useless claptrap. One life = one life = one life.

Do we really need a self-appointed someone to wail on us with their sledgehammer of moral relativism? I think not. We're not schoolchildren around here.

Well, most of us aren't, anyway.

Look, I don't assign a greater value to the life of a Londoner than I do to that of a Rwandan or Zimbabwean. But to dismiss out of hand the actual murder of human beings because it pales statistically when compared to ongoing suffering in the Third World, I'll choose to take exception.

Pulling numbers out of a hat, i.e. one American = 2,000 Congolese or 50,000 Chinese or half a Japanese, is just useless claptrap. One life = one life = one life.

Do we really need a self-appointed someone to wail on us with their sledgehammer of moral relativism? I think not. We're not schoolchildren around here.

Well, most of us aren't, anyway.

Great post Dobbsworld. Excellently well written and the full truth! Thanks my friend! :)

You mean, it's a religion of SUBMISSION . . . at the point of a gun :mp5:

Seems to me hogsweat would prefer to live on his knees rather than die on his feet. Of course, that's the worst-case scenario. I think it's more likely he'll die on his knees, while those who stand strong will live.
It does seem that some people, when given the choice between freedom and struggle or peace and submission will always choose peace as if peace is somehow sacred. Maybe you've identified a reason why some people are so opposed to any military action, even justifiable actions like Afghanistan.

2,000 Massacred Congolese = 500 Drowned Bangladeshis = 45 Fire-bombed Iraqis = 12 Carbombed Europeans = 1 Snipered American

In terms of how the media react and the sentiments people feel this may be roughly true, BUT it still doesn't make the deaths of the 2000 congolese any less important than the 1 american, ir in this case 50+ brits. I don't know why i;m arguing here, this is stupid. of course every killing is bad.

and where's this religion and submission stuff crept into the argument?

In terms of how the media react and the sentiments people feel this may be roughly true, BUT it still doesn't make the deaths of the 2000 congolese any less important than the 1 american, ir in this case 50+ brits. I don't know why i;m arguing here, this is stupid. of course every killing is bad.

and where's this religion and submission stuff crept into the argument?
REALLY!?!?!?!? I think that post was sarcastic. Just like this one.

and where's this religion and submission stuff crept into the argument?

Religion? no idea.

Submission = hogsweat not posting anymore

looks like this thread is done

Look, I don't assign a greater value to the life of a Londoner than I do to that of a Rwandan or Zimbabwean. But to dismiss out of hand the actual murder of human beings because it pales statistically when compared to ongoing suffering in the Third World, I'll choose to take exception.

Pulling numbers out of a hat, i.e. one American = 2,000 Congolese or 50,000 Chinese or half a Japanese, is just useless claptrap. One life = one life = one life.

Do we really need a self-appointed someone to wail on us with their sledgehammer of moral relativism? I think not. We're not schoolchildren around here.

Well, most of us aren't, anyway.

I admire you for writing this. It seems that some people seem determined to make some sort of political point despite the inappropriate circumstances and the general poor taste. We in Britain are one of the most charitable nations on earth. We do not value ourselves over people of other races. So, to say that the attack yesterday was "not that bad" is not only wrong, but insulting. I fear for this world when people cannot see yesterday for what it was, a senseless attack on humanity. Yesterday was the day when human beings delibertely disrupted a summit on African poverty in order to kill other human beings. To me, this is a tragedy. Of course, fewer people died in London yesterday, and of course the news coverage is unfair, but this does not change that what happened yesterday was of equal horror and sadness. Tragedy is not something which is determined by scale, but rather circumstance. Well done Dobbsworld.

OK. Let me see. We have ordinary everyday people going to work in a city that is not in a war zone, that is not part of a civil conflict and suddenly they are ripped limb from limb by the detonation of high explosives placed specifically for this purpose..London is playing a role on the war just like Washington and Warsaw are...

right now SaoPaolo is not part of it...It would be very surprising if an AQ terrorist would waste bombs in Brazil...when they have plenty of easy targets in USA and UK...

but If Brazil sent soldiers for a occupation...that changes everything...

I admire you for writing this. It seems that some people seem determined to make some sort of political point despite the inappropriate circumstances and the general poor taste. We in Britain are one of the most charitable nations on earth. We do not value ourselves over people of other races. So, to say that the attack yesterday was "not that bad" is not only wrong, but insulting. I fear for this world when people cannot see yesterday for what it was, a senseless attack on humanity. Yesterday was the day when human beings delibertely disrupted a summit on African poverty in order to kill other human beings. To me, this is a tragedy. Of course, fewer people died in London yesterday, and of course the news coverage is unfair, but this does not change that what happened yesterday was of equal horror and sadness. Tragedy is not something which is determined by scale, but rather circumstance. Well done Dobbsworld.
I totally agree with you there.

London is playing a role on the war just like Washington and Warsaw are...

right now SaoPaolo is not part of it...It would be very surprising if an AQ terrorist would waste bombs in Brazil...when they have plenty of easy targets in USA and UK...

but If Brazil sent soldiers for a occupation...that changes everything...
Please remind me what muslim country the US was occupying on 9/11.

I admire you for writing this. It seems that some people seem determined to make some sort of political point despite the inappropriate circumstances and the general poor taste. We in Britain are one of the most charitable nations on earth. We do not value ourselves over people of other races. So, to say that the attack yesterday was "not that bad" is not only wrong, but insulting. I fear for this world when people cannot see yesterday for what it was, a senseless attack on humanity. Yesterday was the day when human beings delibertely disrupted a summit on African poverty in order to kill other human beings. To me, this is a tragedy. Of course, fewer people died in London yesterday, and of course the news coverage is unfair, but this does not change that what happened yesterday was of equal horror and sadness. Tragedy is not something which is determined by scale, but rather circumstance. Well done Dobbsworld.

Thank you Carops. My life-partner and I discussed this at some length yesterday evening, and we are both of a mind on this matter. Perhaps it's due to being a member-nation of the Commonwealth, or simply due to a wealth of shared history, but as Canadians, we felt strongly that the London attacks were not just an attack on Londoners or Britons, but an attack on Western Civilization.

Whereas my life-partner and I tend to regard the US as simply that, the US - the UK, on the other hand, holds a far greater significance to us as historical standard-bearers of Democratic ideals handed down to us from antiquity. It is, I believe, only natural for us as Canadians to feel a strong kinship with the UK. In a very real sense, Britain is our progenitor - we are the nation we are because of our past heritage.

I don't where I'm going with this, and I'm getting off-topic. And anyway, I'm getting somewhat misty-eyed.

Not another one of these. For gods sake, what's wrong with caring more about your own people than some other people who do not influence you in this world.

I dont care that aids and hunger will kill all these people. Nor do i care about what happens to people in some god-forsaken country that plays no part in the real world (i.e. most of africa). What i do care about is when people want to come over here with the pure intent to murder the people of my country.

And before you say "Oh but what about iraq? Bet you never knew tens of thousands had died in the war", i did know. Its hard not to when these liberals are hammering it down out throats every two seconds. They just seem to forget that more died when saddam was there. And, that the displacement of the marsh arabs in iraq, and now the displacement of the Nbedele peoples has killed in the order of hundreds of thousands.

And still, i dont care. I care what happens to my people first. Once all my people are safe from harm, THEN i will care about the world. This atrocity needs retaliation, not more politically correct dogma. They hate the west because we tried to bring a little civilisation to a peoples and area that have made no advancement for thousands of years. Who's more fascist?

And no, your just plain wrong.


I can understand where your anger comes from and I remember having similiar feelings after September 11th. But since then I've come to realize that in the world we live in now, protecting your own people actually requires helping the people of another country. For instance, when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the United States was quick to aid the Afghanis in the fight against communism. At the time, Osama bin Laden was one of the Afghanis fighting against the Soviets and he was very grateful for our help. But after the Soviet Union was defeated, the United States packed up and left the country in ruins. Now, in no way does that excuse the September 11th attacks and I would still like to see bin Laden brought to justice. It's just unfortunate that mistakes made in the past have lead to our current situation. My point is, leaders of the world need to look to the future and maybe swallow some of their pride so that in the end the world comes out better off.
Oh and really, the invasion of Iraq at the time it was done under the circumstances it was done for, was entirely unneccassary. It's caused a lot more death than maybe waiting a little while and being smart about it would have.

Please remind me what muslim country the US was occupying on 9/11.
you need to read the OBL transcripts.

I clearly remember him mentioning Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Palestina.

you need to read the OBL transcripts.

Answer his question OceanDrive2. What nation were we occupying before 9/11?

The Answer: NONE

I clearly remember him mentioning Saudi Arabia and Lebanon.

Odd! I know we had troops in Saudi Arabia but we weren't occupying it. BTW: The troops were there at the request of the Saudi Government for protection from Saddam Hussein.

As for Lebanon, when did we have troops there? I thought we left Lebanon after an attack on our forces there?

Answer his question OceanDrive2. What nation were we occupying before 9/11?

The Answer: NONE

then...they must be attacking us out of pure jealousy ...and they hate freedom...what was I Thinking[/sarcasm]
:headbang:

I didn't read everybody else's posts between the first page and last, so I may be bringing up a point that somebody else has already used, but...are we forgetting 9/11? I didn't see that particular event on some of your lists of tragedies. This fuels my suspicion that the British (and a lot of other countries) think that we got what was coming to us, and don't care that thousands of people died. Consider yourselves lucky that something on the scale of 9/11 didn't happen to you.

then...they must be attacking us out of pure jealousy ...and they hate freedom...what was I Thinking[/sarcasm]
:headbang:

Apparently you weren't thinking. That is half your problem.

they must be attacking us out of pure jealousy then...and they hate freedom[/sarcasm]

Well, when you advocate imposing Islamic law and theocracy on everyone, kill and torture innocent civilians for trying to bring democracy and a better life to Iraqis, set up murderous regimes like the Taliban, target children with suicide bombers, and indoctrinate children with hate for others from their birth, it's hard to say the terrorists love freedom.

As for Lebanon, when did we have troops there? I thought we left Lebanon after an attack on our forces there?I think you are rite about Lebanon.Odd! I know we had troops in Saudi Arabia but we weren't occupying it.
maybe Osama (a saudi citizen) consider the Saudi Princes to be puppet dictators protected by the US?

just an idea...

I think many of you are missing his point. He is not saying that the deaths in London don't mean anything. What he is saying is that there is such a huge reaction to the deaths in relation to a terrorist incedent but yet there isnt the same reaction to other types of tragic death.

it's hard to say the terrorists love freedom.
what i said is "they must hate freedom"...

they want to be slaves...[sarcasm/]

I think you are rite about Lebanon.
maybe Osama (a saudi citizen) consider the Saudi Princes to be puppet dictators protected by the US?

just an idea...

Crazy but no. Wrong on so many counts. I guess you didn't get the part about the US being invited in to Saudi Arabia to protect them. Also, I guess you didn't know that military troops were ordered to follow customs of the muslim world if they traveled off base. :rolleyes:

I guess you never had anyone that went to Saudi Arabia.

Thank you Carops. My life-partner and I discussed this at some length yesterday evening, and we are both of a mind on this matter. Perhaps it's due to being a member-nation of the Commonwealth, or simply due to a wealth of shared history, but as Canadians, we felt strongly that the London attacks were not just an attack on Londoners or Britons, but an attack on Western Civilization.

Whereas my life-partner and I tend to regard the US as simply that, the US - the UK, on the other hand, holds a far greater significance to us as historical standard-bearers of Democratic ideals handed down to us from antiquity. It is, I believe, only natural for us as Canadians to feel a strong kinship with the UK. In a very real sense, Britain is our progenitor - we are the nation we are because of our past heritage.

I don't where I'm going with this, and I'm getting off-topic. And anyway, I'm getting somewhat misty-eyed.

Thankyou. Britain and Canada have, because of their very nature, always been friends. I hope this will always be the case. The fact is yesterday's assault upon London was not only an attack upon western civilisation but upon all of humanity. Black, white, young, old, christian and muslim all suffered yesterday. The question is for what? We will likely never understand the people who did this but we must show that we are better than them, with nations such as Canada and Britain standing together against this terror. We have tried hard to hold steady the ideals of democracy across the years, and I hope that our response to this will be in keeping with this legacy.

what i said is "they must hate freedom"...

they want to be slaves...[sarcasm/]

They want us to be slaves to them and yes the terrorists do hate freedom.

What Flamboyant Men and Turqoise Days are saying is what I mean... I should have phrased it something like this;
Every day hundreds of people die, alot of them due to murder, but then when a terror attack kills fifty people it's a crying tragedy -which it is when anyone dies. What I was trying to say, is that although every death should be mourned (or rejoiced, depending on your religion) some are more than others, and some responses are harsher than others. I think this is not right, and I was asking anyone whether they agreed - albeit in a very badly put way, I admit.

Oh, and to anyone that thought I "ran away" you can check back my earlier posts on page 2-3 to see where I went.

Flame me all you want, but i'm not listening.

you need to read the OBL transcripts.

I clearly remember him mentioning Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Palestina.
None of those were occupied by US forces. We were in Saudi at the invitation of the royal family, we were not present in Lebanon and there's no such thing as Palestine.

On the contrary, I believe Israel is handing back the West Bank to Palestine to help the creation of a Palestinian state..although I could be wrong.

How can you write such tosh!
Millions of Africans dying each year is a tradegy, but I believe that they die through the actions of nature, not fellow humans. The plain fact is is that the bombs in London were shocking and unprovoked (much was the war in Iraq) but i believe you misrepresent your facts as a mere number of deaths. That is wrong. At the end of the day, Africans dont die through explosions on public transport, on which many thousands of people use each day in great confidence. I believe you are simply misguided.
I trust OceanDrive2, you are American?
Now listen to me, I'm British and I have been here to experience the terror caused by the bombs.
A) You call them ragheads, that is racist
B) We have to endure your endless rants about 9/11, which indeed was a terrible tradgedy, but so was London. The numbers may be different but the affect it had on the people was exactly the same_Pain, Sufferin, Frim reality and Fear. We are not suprised by the attacks, but shocked. Please have some respect for our sorrows at this time in Great Britain

On the contrary, I believe Israel is handing back the West Bank to Palestine to help the creation of a Palestinian state..although I could be wrong.

No they are but the US wasn't occupying the areas that Israel was occupying. That was what he was talking about though I think OBL ment Israel's occupation of the Palestine though it wasn't a state. Still isn't but hopefully it will be one day and a peaceful Palestine at that. One that can co-exist with Israel.

if they want to engage in the circles of vicious revenge...If they want to kill AK-toting rag-heads...all they need to do is send thousands of additional troops to Iraq...and relieve the tired-&-fed-up US troops (God knows they cant wait to be replaced by the Brits..even if its only a few Thousand.

Wait a minute? When did are troops get fed up? They aren't fed up. Morale is still high. I know that my dad isn't fed up and he's over there right now.

"the death of one man is a tragidy, the death of a million is a statistic" is the case here , people don't like to think about huge deaths and suffering so get sad when a smaller (still a tragedy) happens blocking out the even worse stuff.
(poorly explanned but i hope you understand)

No they are but the US wasn't occupying the areas that Israel was occupying. That was what he was talking about though I think OBL meant Israel's occupation of the Palestine though it wasn't a state. Still isn't but hopefully it will be one day and a peaceful Palestine at that. One that can co-exist with Israel.in the tapes OBL has made Crystal clear statements making the US responsible for Israel aggression...

London attacks? I don't know... maybe some AQ wannabees dumbasses considers them complices on the Iraq carnage...I don't Know...

If I was an AQ mastermind... I would not have attacked the UK...cos there is so many easy US targets...

but once the attacks was carried over I would not condem-it (too late)...I don't want to give a weak Image...and I don't want to send contradictory messages to my base...

What Flamboyant Men and Turqoise Days are saying is what I mean... I should have phrased it something like this;
Every day hundreds of people die, alot of them due to murder, but then when a terror attack kills fifty people it's a crying tragedy -which it is when anyone dies. What I was trying to say, is that although every death should be mourned (or rejoiced, depending on your religion) some are more than others, and some responses are harsher than others. I think this is not right, and I was asking anyone whether they agreed - albeit in a very badly put way, I admit.

Oh, and to anyone that thought I "ran away" you can check back my earlier posts on page 2-3 to see where I went.

Flame me all you want, but i'm not listening.

I accept what you are saying, and these are injustices that need to be corrected. But to many of us, every life lost in Africa is just as terrible to those lost yesterday. But because of the nature of yesterday's attack, I cannot agree with you. I believe that what happened yesterday requires attention, as it was a brutal attack upon the host nation of a summit aiming to end African poverty. This is a disaster for the entire human race, and as the watered-down results of the G8 come, there will be many more victims. Think of all those who could have been saved if the G8 had continued normally, and now may not be. Think of the trade agreements that could not be reached in the time left for the conference. To me, this is not only a tragedy because of the death and misery caused but also because it damaged what could have been a monumental summit. I accept that some progress has been made, but it is not enough.
I hope you will listen to me, as I do understand what you are saying and perhaps would have, at one point, agreed with you. I oppose your argument, but I respect you for making it.

in the tapes OBL has made Crystal clear statements making the US responsible for Israel aggression...

Funny. Most of what Israel does is in response to terrorist actions.

London attacks? I don't know... maybe some AQ wannabees dumbasses considers them complices on the Iraq carnage...I don't Know...

And England never ever had majority support for the war in Iraq. Kinda a bad target to hit in that regards.

If I was an AQ mastermind... I would not have attacked the UK...cos there is so many easy US targets...

Unfortunately but you can't secure everything.

but once the attacks was carried over I would not condem-it (too late)...I don't want to give a weak Image...and I don't want to send contradictory messages to my base...

This just makes you an idiot. Congratulations. I've condemned these attacks though I condemn all terror attacks.

he should not be surprised by that...

I say he is trying to put things "in Perspective"...and he has every right to do so.

If British People are surprised to be attacked...they should not be.

if they want to engage in the circles of vicious revenge...If they want to kill AK-toting rag-heads...all they need to do is send thousands of additional troops to Iraq...and relieve the tired-&-fed-up US troops (God knows they cant wait to be replaced by the Brits..even if its only a few Thousand.

Bush will welcome you with open arms.

I think you take a very low view of British people in this statement. We were not surprised, in fact we had planned for this. I for one, do not want "vicious revenge" as I fail to see how it will achieve anything. Perhaps you should be more considerate, as we are currently feeling wounded.

...Please have some respect for our sorrows at this time in Great Britain
i said it before...and I repeat again...I respect your sorrows...

It is a tragedy...and I wish it didnt happen...

Perhaps you should be more considerate, as we are currently feeling wounded.
i retract the post..

and i retract whatever else may have offended you.

i truly wish these tragedies never happen.

if they want to engage in the circles of vicious revenge...If they want to kill AK-toting rag-heads...all they need to do is send thousands of additional troops to Iraq...and relieve the tired-&-fed-up US troops (God knows they cant wait to be replaced by the Brits..even if its only a few Thousand.


That's quite a supposition. Perhaps you should wait to see what their actual response is - ?

I'm not sure what the UK will do, but I was pleased yesterday to hear Mr. Blair talking in terms of bringing the responsible parties "to Justice", instead of seeking retribution and further violence.

The way we'll defeat the tactics of terror is to hold ourselves to higher standards. This I truly believe.

But if the americans are entiled to groan about 9/11, we British are allowed to have sympathy for london.

That's quite a supposition. Perhaps you should wait to see what their actual response is - ?

I'm not sure what the UK will do, but I was pleased yesterday to hear Mr. Blair talking in terms of bringing the responsible parties "to Justice", instead of seeking retribution and further violence.

The way we'll defeat the tactics of terror is to hold ourselves to higher standards. This I truly believe.

You are completely correct. We can only justify our hatred of terrorism by making clear that we are better than them. Revenge achieves nothing, but leaves others seeking revenge. It seems we have similar thoughts today Dobbsworld.

I'm not sure what the UK will do, but I was pleased yesterday to hear Mr. Blair talking in terms of bringing the responsible parties "to Justice", instead of seeking retribution and further violence.
I am 100% behind that course of action.
Blair did react very well. A grade

i retract the post..

and i retract whatever else may have offended you.

i truly wish these tragedies never happen.

thankyou.

i didn't read through all the posts... so i don't know if someone pointed this out or not....


but the IBC website states that it counts suicide bombings and other insurgent attacks in that body count, blaming it on the Coalition for invading Iraq. It's a skewed #. True, that many may have died, but it wasn't all on the hands of USA and her allies.

I think you take a very low view of British people in this statement. We were not surprised, in fact we had planned for this. I for one, do not want "vicious revenge" as I fail to see how it will achieve anything. Perhaps you should be more considerate, as we are currently feeling wounded.
Britain's planning for this was shown in our excellence in our public health and emergency service sectors as they worked round the clock and in excellent time. The whole thing had been rehearsed and it went VERY well. Anyway, thank you Carops for your last post. Thankfully I still have faith that people can see the other side of the grass and still compare shades.

mmmm. Let's take Iran for an example; everyone knows the "human rights abuses" and the "absence" in democracy in Iran. The reason being, it's not part of Islamic CULTURE for women to have a bigger say than men. It's not part of Islamic culture for everyone to vote for who they want in charge. It's part of the west's ignorance and beliefs that the world should be a democracy that makes our world unstable. You can force democracy on someone, you know. Not everyone wants it.

This is yet another display of true ignorance... it is not part of Islamic culture for women to have a bigger say then men ??? or for everyone to vote for who they want ?? so obviously they dont want it.

So the black slave anywhere in the west from the British empire to the United STates really didn't want freedom because it wasn't part of his "Culture" as he lived in those western societies ? Culture is defined by those with power... obviously women dont have a say, not because they dont want one but because they dont ahve a choice. They are taken out and stoned to death dare they show their face. And people dont vote for who they want not because they dont want to.. but beacuse they are not given that chioce to. Show me a person who does not want atleast some control over their own desitny by giving a vote for their leadership, and ill show you a person controled by tryanny and fear!!

There is no place in this world democracy does not belong.. it dosn't have to be the same democracy as ours (ie. Russia more authoritairan)... but the people should always have the final say!

If it's any consolation, the jihadist attacks seem to be getting less successful.

2,800 - 2001
215 - 2002
191 - 2004
49 - 2005

Also, one attack a year ain't bad for a war.

mmmm. Let's take Iran for an example; everyone knows the "human rights abuses" and the "absence" in democracy in Iran. The reason being, it's not part of Islamic CULTURE for women to have a bigger say than men. It's not part of Islamic culture for everyone to vote for who they want in charge. It's part of the west's ignorance and beliefs that the world should be a democracy that makes our world unstable. You can force democracy on someone, you know. Not everyone wants it.
This is rubbish. Women's rights are being denied. Your argument could be used to justify anything.

You could say that denial of rights to gays in America is justified because it's not part of their culture, supposedly. You could say that we should lock out all immigrants because they're not part of our culture.

It's amazing how heartless some people are. How would you feel if one of the closest people to you got killed in a train in London or DOING THEIR JOB in an office building in New York? I'm not justifying anything else that's going on in the world, but this is a tragedy regardless.

And I don't care what you Live 8 supporters say, the only thing that will help the countries in Africa is the removal of their corrupt governments and the replacement of those governments with those led by people who can think rationally. The United States gives a lot more money than you or the bands at the festival would ever think about giving to Africa.

Meanwhile, my thoughts and prayers are with those in London.

"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half." - Sir Winston Churchill

And I don't care what you Live 8 supporters say, the only thing that will help the countries in Africa is the removal of their corrupt governments and the replacement of those governments with those led by people who can think rationally. The United States gives a lot more money than you or the bands at the festival would ever think about giving to Africa.you mean like we removed and replaced Saddam?

or like when we removed and replaced Omar?

... like when we removed and replaced Allende?

..like when we removed and replaced the Iranian PM?

all those times we removed and replaced any number of presidents we did not like...their incomes and freedom was vastly improved.. :rolleyes:

you mena like we removed and replaced Saddam?

or like when we removed and replaced Allende?

like when we removed and replaced any number of presidentds we did not like...
Yeah all those African and Central American countries are so much better because of us...

just look at Afghanistan :rolleyes:
You're right, let's just send billions of dollars there so the dictators can buy a few mansions.

I don't know if you've ever seen Black Hawk Down, but in one of the opening scenes, a dump truck with food comes up to a mob of people. All the people flock to the truck to get food. Then, for no reason at all, the rebels in the back of a truck open fire on the crowd. They claim the food belongs to their leader, and it shouldn't be given to the people.

That's what I'm talking about.

You're right, let's just send billions of dollars there so the dictators can buy a few mansions.

I don't know if you've ever seen Black Hawk Down, but in one of the opening scenes, a dump truck with food comes up to a mob of people. All the people flock to the truck to get food. Then, for no reason at all, the rebels in the back of a truck open fire on the crowd. They claim the food belongs to their leader, and it shouldn't be given to the people.

That's what I'm talking about.you are talking about the US military portrayed by Hollywood.

get a clue.

get a clue.

He's not the only one who should take that advice.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9215893&postcount=26

you are talking about the US military portrayed by Hollywood.

get a clue.
And you know for a fact that that doesn't happen? I think I have a better case than you do. I didn't say that things like that happen all the time and that our military is a bunch of heroes, but I was trying to prove to you what it would take to help the millions of people who have nothing in Africa.

And Bono singing his lungs out for his thousand dollar gift bag is not it.

Pump more money into Africa, maybe their real estate profits will go up.

And I don't care what you Live 8 supporters say, the only thing that will help the countries in Africa is the removal of their corrupt governments and the replacement of those governments with those led by people who can think rationally. The United States gives a lot more money than you or the bands at the festival would ever think about giving to Africa.If you care so much about children going hungry in 3rd World countries you should try to break the Cuba embargo.

If you care so much about children going hungry in 3rd World countries you should try to break the Cuba embargo.
How would that help?

... I think I have a better case than you do. ..

I didn't say that things like that happen all the time and that our military is a bunch of heroes,

but I was trying to prove to you what it would take to help the millions of people who have nothing in Africa.

And Bono singing his lungs out for his thousand dollar gift bag is not it.

Pump more money into Africa, maybe they're real estate profits will go up.waht do you mean the RealState will go up ???

WTF are you talking about?

How would that help?
Cuba is a 3rd world country. Embargos don't bother dictators, but prevent civilians from getting the goods they need.

Besides, Cuba makes really good cigars (even though I personally don't smoke...) and if Americans could now buy them legally...imagine the huge economic boom..

How would that help?helping stavating countries is not about giving them food...its about giving them tools to feed themselves...

Break the enbargo...and cuban poor children will have food to eat.

waht do you mean the RealState will go up ???

WTF are you talking about?
Apparently you don't pay attention to previous posts THAT ARE DIRECTED TOWARDS YOU. I said the more money you give to those countries, the more money their corrupt leaders get. They would in turn by more mansions and what not.

Pay attention next time (not like you actually bothered to read this post anyways).

Cuba makes really good cigars (even though I personally don't smoke...) and if Americans could now buy them legally...imagine the huge economic boom..

Sure Americans can buy 'em. Just not in the States. Hell, if I want a Cuban cigar I just have to walk to the corner store.

i don't think this thread is in the best of taste, but hey my community has just been bombed. I do worry about these other issues but how you can rank things by death toll i find a bit cold but hey

helping stavating countries is not about giving them food...its about giving them tools to feed themselves...

Break the enbargo...and cuban poor children will have food to eat.
Food that only we can give them?

Relate Castro to what I said in my previous 3409684 posts on this issue. You obviously don't seem to be paying attention to my arguement.

Pay attention next time (not like you actually bothered to read this post anyways).

Oceandrive has selective vision. He still has yet to acknowledge his ignorance responding to a post I made regarding Al-Qaeda's actual hit-list (as opposed to some hit-list of his own imagination).

You're right, let's just send billions of dollars there so the dictators can buy a few mansions.

I don't know if you've ever seen Black Hawk Down, but in one of the opening scenes, a dump truck with food comes up to a mob of people. All the people flock to the truck to get food. Then, for no reason at all, the rebels in the back of a truck open fire on the crowd. They claim the food belongs to their leader, and it shouldn't be given to the people.

That's what I'm talking about.
Sounds a bit like "This profit belongs to me, your not having any. You are not worthy of money or possessions, liberalcommieeurotrash!!"

Sounds a bit like "This profit belongs to me, your not having any. You are not worthy of money or possessions, liberalcommieeurotrash!!"
Ahh, the heartless pig that started this thread.

If you didn't catch my earlier arguement, I said that the US already sends more money to Africa than the other countries at the G8 . If the artists really cared about making a difference, they'd give up their thousand dollar giftbags, sell one of their homes, and then give all that money to Africa. 200 artists with a million dollars per person? Sounds like a great amount of money to give if you ask me.

If you didn't PAY ATTENTION to the rest of my arguement, please stop commenting. That goes for all of you.

Yeah, some terrorists blew up our subway system and a bus full of people. 37 die, over 700 wounded. It's a horror, but let's compare it to the big figures;

IBC counts 22787 minimum dead Iraqi civilians since may 2003 - and that's not including those killed in the war itself,

AIDS will kill over 3.5 million Africans in the next decade,

According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die every year due to poverty; that's under 11 million a year.

And people wonder why extremists hate the west? You wonder why they want to bomb our skyscrapers and kill our people?

Obviously there are more, in depth figures and statistics and descriptions, but I just dug these up quickly.

Thoughts? Am I a "terrorist arab raghead" who "needs to be shot so the world can live in democracy" or a "flagburner"?
Or am I right?

Holy shit, it's true! Liberals won't even take their own side in a fight, LoL. I'm sure if you want to lay down your life to appease some terrorists, they'll be happy to oblige, LMAO

Sounds a bit like "This profit belongs to me, your not having any. You are not worthy of money or possessions, liberalcommieeurotrash!!"

I'm sorry but I can't really understand where your coming from in this thread. I mean your basically saying because thereare worse problems around this is ok. Do you really think this is the best time to start a thread on this when at least one NS member has lost a family member and many (including my family) were involved. I mean can you really justify upsetting people in this way and not expect to be called a troll?

I don't want an adverse reaction. I made this thread to see who agrees with me, and who is out for blood. Maybe none of my relatives or friends were in that group of 37 that died, but let me ask you; Do YOU have any relatives living in poverty? I know I do.

Crazy idea here; instead of the time and money required to make those 4000+ posts, as well as whatever else you sit around doing on the computer, did you think of maybe ummm... helping them? Instead of just pissing on some people who didn't deserve to die, and probably in the majority supported African Aid, and were against Iraq?

Oceandrive has selective vision. He still has yet to acknowledge his ignorance responding to a post I made regarding Al-Qaeda's actual hit-list (as opposed to some hit-list of his own imagination).
I did not see your post...I dont have time to look for it now...going AFK

ill be back in 1 hour...

BTW my comp is on most of the time...It does not mean im all the time here.

Crazy idea here; instead of the time and money required to make those 4000+ posts, as well as whatever else you sit around doing on the computer, did you think of maybe ummm... helping them? Instead of just pissing on some people who didn't deserve to die, and probably in the majority supported African Aid, and were against Iraq?
:applause:

They want us to be slaves to them and yes the terrorists do hate freedom.
on what grounds do they hate freedom? You're just regurgitating mantras that Big Brother has pounded into our heads here.

Then maybe, if the US really cared about Africa, then it would go about helping in replacing governments, rather than sending in money and food and screaming when corrupt governments steal it. Africa's governments are corrupt because colonialisation ended too quickly, it didn't have a chance to slow down. it doesn't help that the US destablised a fair few African countries to stop the Soviets spreading Communism. America may send a load of money, but it's going nowhere, and you expect it to go somewhere, even when nobody has TOLD these people how to rule a country. Maybe, before giving a kid in a playground a packet of sweets, you should tell him to share them, rather than eat them all himself. Watch the flaming. I don't take lightly to being called a heartless pig by you.

EDIT: Sigh. I've already said that I was not trying to say their deaths did not matter, on the contrary. I was trying to say that the response was exaggerated in comparison to other things that happen.
See here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9215464&postcount=111)

Do YOU have any relatives living in poverty? I know I do.

I live in poverty, you young prat. Do you think my poverty entitles me to cavalierly dismiss murder?

I sure as Hell don't. Don't assume you speak on behalf of the downtrodden, in fact, don't assume anything at all.

I think we've all had more than enough of your assumptions to last us through 'til next week, thanks.

I did not see your post...I dont have time to look for it now...going AFK

ill be back in 1 hour...

BTW my comp is on most of the time...It does not mean im all the time here.

Like I said, selective vision. I even provided a link for him... in this thread.

Then maybe, if the US really cared about Africa, then it would go about helping in replacing governments, rather than sending in money and food and screaming when corrupt governments steal it.

You want the US to do it alone? What about France, Britain, Germany, Russia, Italy, and other nations? They could oust those evil regimes too. So tell me why it has to be done by the United States when it was EUROPE and not the US that held the continent?

Africa's governments are corrupt because colonialisation ended too quickly, it didn't have a chance to slow down. it doesn't help that the US destablised a fair few African countries to stop the Soviets spreading Communism.

It also didn't help that European powers left them in a lurch without making sure that they can govern themselves. That was the major problem.

America may send a load of money, but it's going nowhere, and you expect it to go somewhere, even when nobody has TOLD these people how to rule a country. Maybe, before giving a kid in a playground a packet of sweets, you should tell him to share them, rather than eat them all himself. Watch the flaming. I don't take lightly to being called a heartless pig by you.

Your hatred for the US is not going to hack the program.

Then maybe, if the US really cared about Africa, then it would go about helping in replacing governments, rather than sending in money and food and screaming when corrupt governments steal it. Africa's governments are corrupt because colonialisation ended too quickly, it didn't have a chance to slow down. it doesn't help that the US destablised a fair few African countries to stop the Soviets spreading Communism. America may send a load of money, but it's going nowhere, and you expect it to go somewhere, even when nobody has TOLD these people how to rule a country. Maybe, before giving a kid in a playground a packet of sweets, you should tell him to share them, rather than eat them all himself. Watch the flaming. I don't take lightly to being called a heartless pig by you.
Check this out, you just said what I've been arguing for. If we replace the governments in Africa, they money will go to better use.

WAIT A SECOND...

You're probably one of the people arguing against the war in Iraq. Isn't that removing a corrupt government? Sounds like it to me.

I'll flame all I want to. You trivialized the deaths of 37 (actually more) people who were doing nothing wrong. What you did is a lot more insensitive that what I've said, and I've quite a few people who have consciences that would back me up on that. What if one of your family members was inside that train that they still haven't dug the bodies out of? I'm sure you would be extremely pissed if you read a thread such as this one. Try thinking before you open your mouth.

Then don't post on this thread, simple as that. Evidently, if you make another post, then you are simply coming back for more assumptions, no? It's your choice to click the mouse button. Not mine. I wasn't assuming I was speaking on the behalf of anyone. I was using it as an example.

Hog I really wouldn't mind an answer

-snip-.

I'm not anti Iraq war, it was a good cause to remove Saddam from power, if a questionable target. What I am anti, is foreign corporations moving into a country, setting subisidies for their own nation's companies to set up shop over there, to export whatever resource they need, and then calling it democracy.

Then don't post on this thread, simple as that. Evidently, if you make another post, then you are simply coming back for more assumptions, no? It's your choice to click the mouse button. Not mine. I wasn't assuming I was speaking on the behalf of anyone. I was using it as an example.

An example thats only a day old when they are still digging up bodies ? How classy of you

I'm not anti Iraq war, it was a good cause to remove Saddam from power, if a questionable target. What I am anti, is foreign corporations moving into a country, setting subisidies for their own nation's companies to set up shop over there, to export whatever resource they need, and then calling it democracy.
Just say oil...you'll get the same response.

I share the sympathies that many others do on NS. Why hasn't the price of oil gone down since the war has started. It's actually gone up about 75 cents per gallon. I know that wouldn't have happened if *Halliburton* had gone into Iraq to export oil back to America. And by the way, their people voted. That sounds like a democracy to me.

I wasn't reffering as democracy to the Iraqi people voting; I was reffering to oil subsidies. Although I didn't know that. I guess you learn something new every day.

I'm not anti Iraq war, it was a good cause to remove Saddam from power, if a questionable target. What I am anti, is foreign corporations moving into a country, setting subisidies for their own nation's companies to set up shop over there, to export whatever resource they need, and then calling it democracy.

Why Commandeering a Sovereign Nation's Resources Under The Guise of Democratic Reforms isn't REALLY that bad.

Well, foreign corporations moving into a country, setting subisidies for their own nation's companies to set up shop over there, to export whatever resource they need, and then calling it democracy pales in comparison to the plight of budgerigars.

Are you not aware of their plight? They are sadistically kept captive in little cages from birth 'til death. Everybody talks about the foreign corporations moving into a country, setting subisidies for their own nation's companies to set up shop over there, to export whatever resource they need, and then calling it democracy, but no-one remembers the plight of the budgerigar.

For shame.

The only way we are ever going to find peace with the middle east is to remove the regimes from power that lead by fear and intimidation. Once they taste freedom and opportunity, they will be able to prosper without tearing others down. The terrorists are like school bullies- to make themselves feel better, they wreck other people so that we're all down at the same level.

I'm literally wetting my pants with laughter.

I wasn't reffering as democracy to the Iraqi people voting; I was reffering to oil subsidies. Although I didn't know that. I guess you learn something new every day.
What didn't you know?

I wasn't reffering as democracy to the Iraqi people voting; I was reffering to oil subsidies. Although I didn't know that. I guess you learn something new every day.

Hog are you deliberatly ignoring me?

Well Gataway Driver, I didn't think at the time that what I had posted would offend so many people. Obviously I was wrong. Antheridia, what i meant was that I didn't know that oil prices had gone up. Now, i'm going to go play BF2.

The only way we are ever going to find peace with the middle east is to remove the regimes from power that lead by fear and intimidation. Once they taste freedom and opportunity, they will be able to prosper without tearing others down. The terrorists are like school bullies- to make themselves feel better, they wreck other people so that we're all down at the same level.
what about peace here in America? What about having the freedoms we're forcing down other countries throats here in America?

And the only way I see peace happening in the Mid East is if all Western powers get the fuck out of their affairs immediately. Let Israel do Israel things, instead of blatantly backing them, help the Palestinians negotiate with the Israelis instead of the other way around. We've been Imperialistic for too long.

Gataway, did you have anyone killed or injured in the bombings?

If we could avoid creating ten new terrorists with every airstrike, that'd be helpful in the long run, I think.

Gataway, did you have anyone killed or injured in the bombings?
My father was a few minutes away from liverpool street when it happened. Another person on this sites father died, check NS London check in

My father was a few minutes away from liverpool street when it happened. Another person on this sites father died, check NS London check in
I don't know how to check that, if you could give me a link, that would be great.

I'm glad that your father is safe, and I pray that you guys would continue to be safe.

If we could avoid creating ten new terrorists with every airstrike, that'd be helpful in the long run, I think.
that's exactly what people don't realize. We fight this war on terror, but behind our backs there are many times more making plots and we won't discover them until the next terror attack (like yesterday, geeze, was it only yesterday?) Even though we don't know who exactly pulled it off, no doubt we'll know soon enough...and punish them after another group strikes... (repeat indefinately)

I don't know how to check that, if you could give me a link, that would be great.

I'm glad that your father is safe, and I pray that you guys would continue to be safe.

my dad was on business trip to london and he died im even more pissed then ever now im ready to go to war.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=430521

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=430521
Thanks a lot. I'm out.

No, it's like saying 37 people die and suddenly everyones shouting "REVENGE, KILL THE PAKIS!" But thousands die each year and noone cares.

Not everyone is shouting that, though. I know some great people who are Islam. I know great people who aren't Islamic. Sure, some 'pakis' have been suicide bombing. I'm not saying that isn't horrible, but it's no worse than mass murders - or anyone taking another persons life, regardless of how many they take.

As someone has previously stated, every death is a tragedy.

As for what you say - sure people care. The thing is, how would you know that people don't care? The day after a terrorist bombing, of course everyone's going to be talking about it. An ongoing thing, like people dying from AIDS - it's not exactly a topic of everyday conversation, is it? How would people truly know whether or not you care? However, just because it doesn't -seem- like people care, it doesn't mean that they don't.

I know this hasn't been said here (this is a point from another forum altogether), but in case anyone goes any further, I'll repeat this: Deaths are tragedies. Terrorism is terrorism, illnesses are illnesses. They can all lead to death. Does it really matter how many people die? This isn't the time to make comparisons and say that people shouldn't be making a fuss because more people die from AIDs (and as far as I know, no one's gone that far, but bear with me).

And an obvious point: a bombing in London killing 37 is a lot worse than 1000 people dying from AIDs to the people who lost friends and family in the blast.

People are the centre of their own worlds - of course things hitting close to where they are and effecting them are going to seem worse than anything else - it's the way we look at things, it's practically human nature.

I forget the point I'm trying to make here, but I think it was something along the lines of 'does the number of dead really matter? It's -still- a tragedy!'

All right, I just know the bleeding-hearts and apologists will swarm me here, but that's irrelevant.

All deaths are bad, in one way or another. I've lamented Iraqis dying (mostly at the hands of this sort of subhuman scum, I'll have you all remember), I protested against us getting involved in the first place, and I have kept on saying that it was a bad idea for us to get into Iraq (because we all knew it would never work!) and that we should depart, pronto, and leave them to sort out their own mess of a nation. Oh, and to anyone who's gonna scream "racist!", at least two Iraqi ex-pats I know share the exact same view - that it was an idealistic cockup and that we ought to leave and make them sort it out. In the same way, the deaths in Africa are terrible (although, again, perhaps if some of them actually didn't go around bonking anything that moved it might help reduce the spread of AIDS); I've given to charities, I've pontificated on the topic, and I sincerely regret the fact that people die all over that rotten continent from god alone knows how many causes.

However, we didn't set out to murder the Iraqis - unlike their erstwhile leader. We set out to, at the very worst, stabilise their country to provide a stable environment for our own oil extraction concerns. We didn't set out to destroy African lives, either. Guess what? The chief topic at the G8 was - GASP! - how to solve the problems besieging bloody Africa, despite the fact that, frankly, their stupid tribal squabbles and the spread of disease there are essentially irrelevant to us. Ever read "The White Man's Burden"? Well, people felt that way back in the days of "evil British Imperialism" too. You know, the evil Imperialism that gave them roads, railways, education, science, sanitation, medical care and so forth (God, how selfish of us). Despite our flaws, our stupidities and our misadventures, rarely in recent history have we set out to ruthlessly annihilate the population of a foreign land for having the temerity not to be British.

Now, unless I'm very mistaken, the blokes who bombed London did so with the goal of killing people who had never done them any harm and who probably wished them no harm at all. Maybe they did it because they want to force the West to give more help to their countries (though I'd like to point out that the chief export of Arabia is oil, and without us buying that, they'd be REALLY fucked), or maybe they did it to further their religion (because we'll all convert to Wahabbism now!), or maybe they were just psychopathic xenophobes who thought we were out to kill them all and desecrate their God. But here's the criutical difference:

They are out to kill us. Their sole intent and interest lies in killing Westerners, simply because they are Westerners. If the West went out and killed Muslims for being Muslims, the bleeding-hearts would call it genocide. It seems that when fanatical Muslims kill Westerners for being Westerners, however, the bleeding-hearts call it "fighting for their freedom", "legitimate political protest", or "what we deserve". Funny that, eh?

Oceandrive has selective vision. He still has yet to acknowledge his ignorance responding to a post I made regarding Al-Qaeda's actual hit-list (as opposed to some hit-list of his own imagination).
Oceandrive has selective vision. He still has yet to acknowledge his ignorance responding to a post I made regarding Al-Qaeda's actual hit-list (as opposed to some hit-list of his own imagination).I did not see your post...I dont have time to look for it now...going AFK

ill be back in 1 hour...

BTW my comp is on most of the time...It does not mean im all the time here.
Like I said, selective vision. I even provided a link for him... in this thread.
Gee, no retort from Oceandrive. Guess I showed him.

*flexes muscles*

...And I owe it all to Dynamic Tension...Muscles? Dynamic Tension? sure...whatever makes your hormones horny. :rolleyes:

He's not the only one who should take that advice.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9215893&postcount=26
Your prayers have been answered...
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=430708&page=3&pp=15


next time i don't reply immediately...do not assume I am ignoring you...its possible I have other things to do.

Make no mistake about it...the terrorist that bombed London yesterday and the one's that attacked the World Trade Centers in 2001 and the terrorist that strike everywhere fully intend to kill as many as they can kill. THEY are disappointed that there aren't more deaths from their attacks.


Look at where and when they attacked yesterday. The subways of London in the middle of rush hour. The streets of London during rush hour. Look how many are injured that THEY hoped would be killed. What if the trains had blown up while in the stations rather than in the tubes? How many more would have died? How many more would have been injured?

Look at the World Trade Centers. The buildings were half empty. Estimates at the time of the attacks ranged from 10 - 25,000 in each building that could have been in the buildings rather than the 5 - 7000 that were atually there. By some miracle 99% of the people who were below the floors that were hit survived. Had the buildings been fully occupied the percentage of people who did get out wouldn't have because of congestion in the stairwells.

Don't think for a minute that if the terrorist get their hands on something that will cause more destruction that they won't use it. The problems caused by famine and disease would be nothing in comparison. That is the true tragedy and that is why there has to be resistance to them. That is why we can't lay down and ignore them but instead we have to take action against them every chance that we get.


My heart goes out to our friends and allies, and in many cases family, in the UK. I am saddened and angered by the attack that was mad on you and I share with you a pride in Prime Minister Tony Blair's words yesterday.


Dominant (doesn't want to wear a burqa) Redheads

EDIT:
See here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9215464&postcount=111)
This is a better description of what I was trying to say.

America is more panicked than London is. Ha.

The London bombings aren't really that bad...compared to the starving of young African children, or those suffering in AIDS.

But they are all bad. All of 'em.

I don't agree with the first post. Simple murderers don't go out coordinate to kill and maim hundreds of people.
This crime is worse than simple murder.

What a stupid thread! :eek: Are deaths just a number?

A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic. Comparing the outcry over one Terry Schavio case and that to those in places such as Darfur, I would have to agree. The emotional tie is stronger with a single face compared to a thousand blank faces. And the argument of deaths happening in strife areas are moot. Vehicle related deaths are responsible for thousands of deaths in developed, peaceful countries (scale for population size). I don't see anyone lobbying to ban the automotive industry.

Face it. Humanity as a whole enjoys hypocrisy. They would be perpetually depressed and unable to conduct their lives without it. Anger, grief, hatred. They are all part of the built in process designed to value the immediate over the wide ranging.

From a purely logical standpoint, there is no more reason for strong emotional outbursts over this than anywhere else where civil strife occurs, save for the fact that it occured perhaps where it was not expected and that those directly affected were close to some. Mind you, this only applies to those directly related or close to the ones effected. People who do not fall into that category have no logical reason to express emotional outrage over this more than any other place where they have no direct ties to.

As for seeing it from someone elses perspective. Why? Nobody else seems to be interested in seeing things from anothers perspective, particularly if it contradicts their own.

Undoubtedly, some will look at this post and call it monstrous, or perhaps wrongheaded for the more polite. I would beg to differ. Logic and emotional detachment would be better suited. Cold blooded if you prefer.

I don't get you people. How is it that death of one person is bad but that the deaths of hundreds isn't?

It doesn't matter if you never saw their face or knew them. They were human beings. They meant something to someone. Even their faces were never plastered all over the media.

The life of all human beings is valuable. And nothing can take from that.
Life, though it sometimes has to be taken, should never be taken lightly. Whether you executing a murderer or executing a war. That is what differentiates the civilized from the uncivilized. The uncivilized take life like it doesn't mean anything. Like no one will miss the person they kill.
I'm sorry for rambling. But I don't like that.

This is why it's such a big deal, and why American casualties mean 45 times more than Iraqi casualties:

2,000 Massacred Congolese = 500 Drowned Bangladeshis = 45 Fire-bombed Iraqis = 12 Carbombed Europeans = 1 Snipered American
Think the Law of Monkey (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html)

Think the Law of Monkey (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html)
mmmmm, monkey.

you are talking about the US military portrayed by Hollywood.

get a clue.
Actually, BHD was pretty true to form, and there have been numerous reports of that type of thing happening in Africa.

Why Commandeering a Sovereign Nation's Resources Under The Guise of Democratic Reforms isn't REALLY that bad.

Well, foreign corporations moving into a country, setting subisidies for their own nation's companies to set up shop over there, to export whatever resource they need, and then calling it democracy pales in comparison to the plight of budgerigars.

Are you not aware of their plight? They are sadistically kept captive in little cages from birth 'til death. Everybody talks about the foreign corporations moving into a country, setting subisidies for their own nation's companies to set up shop over there, to export whatever resource they need, and then calling it democracy, but no-one remembers the plight of the budgerigar.

For shame.
Those little shits are annoying.

EDIT:
See here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9215464&postcount=111)
This is a better description of what I was trying to say.

We'll see if you change your opinion, when people you know get killed in this way.

Think the Law of Monkey (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/monkeysphere.html)

Odd philosophy, but true enough. Of course I care more for those near me than those who are distant from me. When the tsunami hit Indonesia my reaction was basically "Huh. Whaddaya know?" If one had hit my town, my interest level would peak immediately. If someone in my family died, I'd be very upset. It's simply not possible to hold every human life equally valuable. 3000 Persians whom I've never met can't even begin to compare to one of my friends from years back, who I've shared so much with. So I won't be a hypocrite about this, and shed crocodile tears about the one kid each 3 seconds who "dies of poverty," or the thousands of Iraqi and Afghani citizens who've been killed since 2001. I regard it as a miracle that my monkeysphere is as wide as it is; Lord knows I don't want to give a rat's ass about 99% of the people I see in a given day.