NationStates Jolt Archive

The world blasted South Africa for apartheid. The US experienced incredible resistance to Segregation, and the Civil Rights movement had support from every corner of the globe. And yet, despite the hopes and dreams of those who fought for Indian independence, the caste system exists much in the same form it ever has. How is it possible that the world is not united in the condemnation of this form of racism? How is it that it has escaped our notice, to the extent that it is being exported to other nations via immigration?

Recently, I attended a dance recital that was put on by the East Indian community in Edmonton. I went with an Indian friend who has been trying to explain to me the incredible convolutions of caste...the four main castes and the thousands of subcastes. To show me how it still affected her community, she pointed out how people seated themselves for the performance. A Chamaar family (part of the untouchable caste, those that worked animal hides) stood at the back, despite available seats. Brahmins (like my friend) sat in the front. During the intermission, I noticed that when the Chamaar family went to get refreshments, they were not served soda in a cup like others. The cup was placed on the table, and the woman serving it leaned as far away as she could while pouring the soda into it. She snatched her hand back when the man reached for the cup to avoid an accidental touch. And everyone around seemed to think this was perfectly normal, including the Chamaar man.

Why do we ignore this? Why do we feel that this is a valid cultural expression that should not be trifled with? I can see this becoming more and more of an issue as expatriate communities become larger. Thoughts?

Some more information on the treatment of Dalits ( http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/04/14/india879.htm) (the Broken Ones, Untouchables), and laws ( http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/India994-11.htm)in regards to them.

Gang rape, burnings, beatings, and various methods of 'putting Dalits in their place' are still shockingly common. Here ( http://www.pwtn.org/Pdf/dhrmdb/Oct-Dec%202003%20Database.PDF) is a list of some documented cases during a few months in ONE region of India in 2003.

There's the kicker: caste is part of the (East) Indian culture, and Canada is officially multi-cultural. Should we not respect their cultural ways, as long as it isn't imposed on others?

Some more information on the treatment of Dalits ( http://hrw.org/english/docs/1999/04/14/india879.htm) (the Broken Ones, Untouchables), and laws ( http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/india/India994-11.htm)in regards to them.

Gang rape, burnings, beatings, and various methods of 'putting Dalits in their place' are still shockingly common. Here ( http://www.pwtn.org/Pdf/dhrmdb/Oct-Dec%202003%20Database.PDF) is a list of some documented cases during a few months in ONE region of India in 2003.
These activities are a far cry from the seating arrangement mentioned earlier. They are criminal activities.

Recently, I attended a dance recital that was put on by the East Indian community in Edmonton. I went with an Indian friend who has been trying to explain to me the incredible convolutions of caste...the four main castes and the thousands of subcastes. To show me how it still affected her community, she pointed out how people seated themselves for the performance. A Chamaar family (part of the untouchable caste, those that worked animal hides) stood at the back, despite available seats. Brahmins (like my friend) sat in the front. During the intermission, I noticed that when the Chamaar family went to get refreshments, they were not served soda in a cup like others. The cup was placed on the table, and the woman serving it leaned as far away as she could while pouring the soda into it. She snatched her hand back when the man reached for the cup to avoid an accidental touch. And everyone around seemed to think this was perfectly normal, including the Chamaar man.

Why do we ignore this? Why do we feel that this is a valid cultural expression that should not be trifled with? I can see this becoming more and more of an issue as expatriate communities become larger. Thoughts?

Your post answers your question. We ignore it because there is no united outcry from those affected. The Chamaar man accepted it, unlike the blacks who fought against racism.

Edit: Am I wrong? Is there a united outcry that people are genuinely ignoring? Maybe it's just too far removed.

caste systems exist primarily because of religion, if it was tradition rather then religion it could be looked upon as a human rights issue. But it is not, because of certain peoples backgrounds and cultures people often look down upon others lifestyles. Looking from outside the box something can be looked upon as ridiculous. But to someone that has been living that lifestyle generation to generation anything but that lifestyle is looked as ridiculous.

These activities are a far cry from the seating arrangement mentioned earlier. They are criminal activities.
Clearly. This is specific to the treatment of Dalits in India.

The seating arrangment is a very mild example of caste prejudice in Canada.

But the examples are becoming less mild. People are not escaping their caste when they come to Canada. The caste system, as these communities grow, is being imported too. To understand how that works, and the possible repercussions, we need to understand how caste affects people in their country of origin.

There's the kicker: caste is part of the (East) Indian culture, and Canada is officially multi-cultural. Should we not respect their cultural ways, as long as it isn't imposed on others?
Female Genital Mutilation is part of some people's culture too. As are honour killings. As are a host of other practices we frown on. Some are prohibited by our criminal code. Some are not addressed.

What I think is interesting is that racism is anathema to many Canadians...and yet we don't see it happening WITHIN communities, perhaps because we see these communities as ethnically homogenous, when they in fact are not? If we really care about racism, we shouldn't be letting it happen under the guise of culture...

Clearly. This is specific to the treatment of Dalits in India.

The seating arrangment is a very mild example of caste prejudice in Canada.

But the examples are becoming less mild. People are not escaping their caste when they come to Canada. The caste system, as these communities grow, is being imported too. To understand how that works, and the possible repercussions, we need to understand how caste affects people in their country of origin.
Okay, but when they enter Canada they are subject to her laws. The murder and rape, etc, cannot follow them if they hope to lead an upright life here.

I'm probably missing your point, and for that I'm sorry. Understanding what they do in their own country is the most we can accomplish, shy of turning to organizations like Amnesty International.

Your post answers your question. We ignore it because there is no united outcry from those affected. The Chamaar man accepted it, unlike the blacks who fought against racism.

Edit: Am I wrong? Is there a united outcry that people are genuinely ignoring? Maybe it's just too far removed.
Yes, there actually is a growing movement among Dalit organisations ( http://www.dalits.org/asfreport.htm) in various nations to bring attention to the caste system. It doesn't seem to get much media attention though. There are even Dalit organisations in Canada ( http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-omvedt270503.htm) who are fighting this importation of the caste system.

It's so much easier to see racism when its whites against blacks, or visa versa...but much harder to see within communities we consider to be of the same 'race'.

One, there is little internal pressure to change. In the US from the 1700s till today a large segment of the population was against discrimination, and was able to internally enact laws, stage protests, etc. to change the situation. From talking to some Indian colleagues of mine, that does not seem to be the case in India.

Another thing is that Indian castes do not stem from any form of recent imperialism (unlike, say, the South African Apartheid). The caste system has been around longer than any major governmental system and longer than any current major religion (minus Hinduism). The people there are accustomed to it and change is difficult.

Okay, but when they enter Canada they are subject to her laws. The murder and rape, etc, cannot follow them if they hope to lead an upright life here.

I'm probably missing your point, and for that I'm sorry.
Ah. Sorry. My point is, these customs based on the caste system are becoming fairly well rooted in expatriate communities. Included within this system is the culture of silence surrounding abuses. So rapes, murders and so on may be less common, but intimidation, discrimination (shop owners who are robbed more frequently by those of another caste, couples who are hounded for marrying outside their caste, sometimes murdered etc) is still strong, and often unreported. As well, even when sentences are handed out for crimes, the community is not ashamed of the criminals...they are proud, and encourage others to firmly maintain the caste system. We need to address that in some way.

Maybe people can say, "It's not our problem" as no doubt some did during Apartheid, or Segregation in the US...but I'm shocked that there is no large international effort to force India to adhere to its laws that protect Dalits. Why don't we care?

And it becomes our problem when this kind of racism is imported to our nation, and impacts Canadian citizens (newly immigrated or not, they are Canadians). Would we have allowed, for example, a South African expat community that kept blacks in shacks on one end of the block, separate restaurants and all, away from the whites?

Have you guys ever been to India?

I've been to india. My brother-in-law's family lives there. I stayed in this family for a while. They're ordinary people, not rich. They live in an ordinary place, in an ordinary city with poor people around, cows in the street and all that.

Castes still influences the culture, but it is rapidly fading away. In some communities, it is being replaced by racism (skin color) and intolerence -- dark-skinned people from the south are often given the worst jobs, and there are religious clashes and exclusion all the time (Muslims from the north have a specific look, it's almost written "kashmiri" on their face; they have to keep their life "low profile" all the time).

At least, castes aren't really used anymore in everyday life, and people get together, except the poorest people and the leperous -- but it's not a question of caste, it's a question of social stigmata. But I'm not sure India is going anywhere positive anyway. Don't focus on the caste system, it's fadind away -- focus on poverty instead.

There's the kicker: caste is part of the (East) Indian culture, and Canada is officially multi-cultural. Should we not respect their cultural ways, as long as it isn't imposed on others?

Tricky. What if a Canadian-Indian finds him/herself at odds with a transplanted caste system here in Canada? What recourse exists that would not frankly demand the banning of castes? None that I can think of.

Sometimes, you've got to give the past a slip.

At least, castes aren't really used anymore in everyday life, and people get together, except the poorest people and the leperous -- but it's not a question of caste, it's a question of social stigmata. But I'm not sure India is going anywhere positive anyway. Don't focus on the caste system, it's fadind away -- focus on poverty instead.
Where in India did you go? Because in much of the rural parts of India, Dalits can't even live in the same villages as those in higher castes. They live in their own villages outside. The caste system is not fading away. Most Indians are so used to it, they don't even notice it anymore...that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is not as rigid, or restricted, but there is incredible resistance to real changes, including proper application of laws regarding caste discrimination and caste-based crimes. It's less visible in some of the urban centers...and frankly, if you want to focus on poverty, you would be best served focusing on those who are the most poor in India, the Dalits.

Where in India did you go?
Gujarat state, mostly. I've lived for a few weeks in Baroda (Vadodara) and went to poor sectors, agricultural sectors outside of town, vegetable markets, side-of-the-road markets, poor places. We lived like Indians, not like tourists.

I've talked with a lot of people, and sometimes with people who don't speak English, through a Gujarati friend. We've talked a lot about society because my brother-in-law's mother used to be a Socialist. They're not very rich, they live in a small appartment and have no car, and they always go to a Lakshmi temple in a poor area, to give away a little money.

Otherwise I've seen many places between Mumbai and Delhi, but I we weren't staying at the same place for very long.

I really think that as India becomes "modern", they're replacing their caste system with "modern" exclusion systems, based mostly on ethnicity and skin color. It starts in cities, and it will reach the agricultural regions later, maybe in one or two generations.


And you, where have you been?
I sincerely hope your knowledge of India doesn't come from BBC TV documentaries and prime-time news.

*snip*, description of travels
I know that probably sounded snarky "Where have you been", but I was actually wondering if you'd just been to a major city, or if you'd seen some rural areas, where I'm told the caste systems seems to be much stronger.

I really think that as India becomes "modern", they're replacing their caste system with "modern" exclusion systems, based mostly on ethnicity and skin color. It starts in cities, and it will reach the agricultural regions later, maybe in one or two generations. Yikes...one bad system replaced with another! When do you think this change started?

I hope you're right about it difusing to the rural areas. This quote tends to agree with you on the rural/urban dichotomy:

“Caste is not that much of an issue in India today”, said a good friend of mine recently. This statement has the appearance of being true in the educated middle class of large cities …. because the manifestations are not open. They exist in more subtle forms, such as in marriage (how many of the educated middle class are really open to mixing caste in marriage?) and the even more subtle acceptance of certain ways of life, which tend to be upper caste lifestyles (such as religious rituals), as the way to do things. However, most people do agree that different castes can sit together, can touch each other, are created with the same abilities, and so on.

In rural India, there is no such politically correct view of caste. It is accepted that higher castes are better people than lower castes. It is accepted that lower castes are stupid, and good for nothing. It is accepted that the lower caste way of life is inferior. The caste hierarchy is reflected in the village power structure, in the schools, even in the NGOs.


As well...is the caste system changing, or BEING changed? Is it the active work of those opposed to it that are creating this change, or is it simply an evolution as India develops a larger middle class?

One thing that seems fairly constant in expat communities is that the children tend to hold onto customs sometimes even more strongly than their parents in an attempt to define their identity. Thus you have Greeks born in Canada who are 'more Greek than the Greeks'...Chileans who are 'more Chilean than the Chileans'. A friend of mine once said that many of the Jat boys she knew defined themselves by Jat stereotypes in music and movies, because they didn't actually know anything about India aside from these portrayals. She worries that this will mean caste will become more defined as a part of identity, as a way of resisting assimilation abroad by making it stronger than it even is in India itself.


And you, where have you been?
I sincerely hope your knowledge of India doesn't come from BBC TV documentaries and prime-time news.
Nope, never been to India:(. No, what I learn of India comes from Indians living in Canada, from Indian authors, from various Dalit activists. Of course India is more complex than the view these particular people have of it...but what I question is that while certain groups are making noise about atrocities committed against Dalits, why is it that so few people abroad know anything about the caste system, or even care? Why this response to racism, when we focus on it so much in other venues (the Kurds in Iraq, for example, while we ignore the ones in Turkey).

This is not just a problem of filtering in terms of India. It's towards all sorts of people. I'm trying to understand why we don't seem to care about some, while we focus so much on others?

ne thing that seems fairly constant in expat communities is that the children tend to hold onto customs sometimes even more strongly than their parents in an attempt to define their identity. Thus you have Greeks born in Canada who are 'more Greek than the Greeks'...Chileans who are 'more Chilean than the Chileans'.
Yes, I totally agree -- that's the first argument that came to my mind when I've read that thread. But I kept it for myself, because I've lived with Indians in India, whereas I've only had commercial contacts with Canadian Indians.

But yes -- talking about strong identities --, I know a lot of Italian people in Montreal (one of my uncles is Italian!), and they often become a living stereotype!! They make their own (bad) wine, their own dry ham (hung in a closet for months), and so on. It's a way of not losing their culture; they become "folkloric" I think.

(And how about the Greek community going to bouzouki nights on Parc Avenue (Montreal) 5 times a week?!!?!?!)

This is not just a problem of filtering in terms of India. It's towards all sorts of people. I'm trying to understand why we don't seem to care about some, while we focus so much on others?
I think racism based on skin color is easier to understand, and to identify -- it's visual. Maybe it's because we still tend to look at society in terms of ehtnicities, or races, today? Slaves were black, masters were white.

But when it comes to castes, our western culture and history doesn't give us the cultural tools for grasping the concept. At least, not easily.

Personally, I don't think the caste system will ever totally disappear from certain areas of India -- mostly the south and center of the country. Even though the Indian government currently tries to bring "modernity" to these areas, by building a hi-tech center in Hyderabad and by building a highway to the north. But there is genuine work being done. It is easier in the northwest, because of the mixed cultures: Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Kashmiris, Rajastanis... The caste system isn't as present there. Same thing among the Bengalis.

Unlike Apartheid, which was an official and government-imposed exclusion system, the caste system in India is more of a cultural/religious legacy, which is slowly fading away -- hey, it existed even before the country existed!! It's more than 3000 years old. And it was actually encouraged by the British administrators, in the last century. You don't expect it to fade away in 2 generations.
The caste system really the opposite of the American Dream -- you are what you are, not what you want to be. But right now, an Indian Dream is taking shape. Give 'em a few decades.

Caste is a much misunderstood thing, even by those who practice it.

Caste has NO religious basis. Some hindus like to justify it based on a scripture called "Manu-smriti". A smriti is not a divinely inspired holy book and a smriti by definition holds validity only for the time period it is written, which is millenia ago.

So if a hindu Indian says his caste is divinely mandated, give him a kick in his rear.

Unfortunately, caste has become a part of the socio-cultural psyche and in recent times it has become entrenched politically too.

The Government has banned caste based discrimination. Unfortunately in many rural areas in some states, notable in the belt of Bihar - Madhya Pradesh - Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh states , caste based discrimination is still going on.

Not surprisingly these are the poorest states in India with the lowest levels of education.

Sinehue,

It's less visible in some of the urban centers

Having *lived* (not visited, mind you) in many urban centres like Chennai (former Madras), Bangalore, Mumbai (Bombay) , Pune, Jamshedpur, Ahmedabad, Kolkota (Calcutta) I will say that you are wrong. There is NO WAY of anybody knowing what caste you are from by sight and people do not care what caste you are from in a city. City folks are more interested in making money than thinking about what caste the fellow opposite you are from.

Having born in a village and still having a large part of my family and relatives there, I can say with confidence that caste based discrimination (not caste, but the discrimination) is fading away as economic opportunities are increasing.

For ex, I am from a so-called middle caste. In my grandparents time (1920s), dalits were totally discriminated against. They cannot come inside my grandparents house. They have to show respect etc.. you know kinda the "royalty" Vs "commoner" thing of European feudal societies.

In my parents time lots of things changed. School and education made people of all castes come together and learn. Working in cities made people of all castes work together. My parents, although caste conscious, were not the discriminating type and they had no reservations against anybody.

In my time the change has accelerated. I don't associate myself with my caste. I never ask a person what his caste his, because I don't care. Intercaste marriages are becoming increasingly common amongst my friends.

I can say with confidence that caste based discrimination WILL disappear as economic opportunities and education is available for all.

HOWEVER, caste itself will not disappear since it has become so entrenched.

There is caste based politics. Many political parties are there which are caste based , unfortunately many of them are an obstacle for caste disappearing since the leaders have vested interests in keeping his vote bank intact.

Then there is a caste based reservation system , kinda like the Affirmative action thing in the US.

Almost 45 % of seats in educational institutions are reserved for Other Backward castes, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. Thought there is some amount of reverse discrimination going on, I feel that the forward castes have to shoulder the burden since there is no other easy way with the current resources available to give a chance for the upliftment of the "lower" castes.

And then the funny thing of middle caste folks looking down upon the "backward caste folks" and the Dalits themselves have intra-caste things where an "upper" dalit looks down upon a "lower" dalit, but that's another thing.

Because in much of the rural parts of India, Dalits can't even live in the same villages as those in higher castes. They live in their own villages outside.

No, not in my village. Not in any village I have been to and I have been to many villages in southern states.

Like I said above, this problem is endemic in the some poor north Indian states where there is less economic opportunities and less education.

Yes, there are cases of caste based discrimination in the southern states too, but they are fast disappearing.

For instance, Kerala , a Southern state , has 98% (or 100% ) literacy , and it will be hard to find a case of caste discrimination in that state. Atleast when compared to say Bihar which is a violent caste ridden state.

Oh, and one more thing, according to the scriptures, a hindu loses his caste when he travels overseas.

So when you see a Hindu in your country blabbering about caste, you can tell him to stuff it. :)

Caste systems exist because some people are naturally inferior.

Like Canadians.

Or white males. :eek:

Caste systems exist because some people are naturally inferior.

Like Canadians.

Or white males. :eek:


Oh shut up !!

dunno why you wrote "Like Canadians. Or white males" in white color.

Go away.

Mods, Thread hijack alert.

Cat's kidding. :)

Thanks...you two have given me some good insights into this!

I was totally kidding. I thought that what I put as a hidden message made that clear.

It was a poor joke and a hijack, however. Sorry it disturbed you.

I was totally kidding. I thought that what I put as a hidden message made that clear.
It was a poor joke and a hijack, however. Sorry it disturbed you.
Darn, and I thought you were part of the Illuminati.
:eek:

Cat's kidding. :)

Thanks...you two have given me some good insights into this!

No problems and I am serious when I say


"So if a hindu Indian says his caste is divinely mandated, give him a kick in his rear."

and


"when you see a Hindu in your country blabbering about caste, you can tell him to stuff it."

NEVER think of it as a religious thing and so it can be excused, in fear of being accused anti-hindu. Being casteist IS anti-hindu, not the other way.

Caste will probably take a long time to go away, but caste based discrimination should not be tolerated / encouraged in ANY form. Oppose it wherever you see it in any garb, religious or cultural or otherwise.

Sorry Cat-tribe for jumping on you. :D