NationStates Jolt Archive

Clearly, a number US citizens on this forum feel that they are being unjustly 'bashed'. Some of you are right. Some of you, however, see bashing where none exists. In fact, quite often the topic has nothing to do with the US or with its citizens, and suddenly, accusations fly about "American-bashing". I'm a bit baffled, so I'd like to look into this a bit deeper.

How do YOU personally define "American bashing"?

Is any criticism of the US, it's people or administration? Is it specific criticisms? Is it the way such criticisms are phrased (clearly flaming or otherwise)? What types of comments get you riled up the most and feeling attacked?

I'd like, if at all possible, to discuss the perceptions of US citizens about "American bashing", and the perceptions of those who are accused of doing it. I'm wondering how much of our conflict is built up beyond the reality of the situation, and how much is valid. PLEASE try to be cordial. I don't want personal attacks, from anyone, towards anyone else. Phrase your comments to be respectful, even if they include 'examples' which are not. Thanks.

PS. I'm choosing to talk about American bashing rather than conservative/liberal/atheist/Christian or whatever else bashing, because I think the polarization on NS is often more the US against the world or visa versa. That's just MY perception:).

Clearly, this is a thread aimed for Americans. So I'm here to add to my post count...lol...


I think some Americans here believe the RL polls about international perceptions to America. Some of them show that many people are against "America", and so on this forum some take this seriously and think that any dissent or disagreement is "bashing". Perhaps these people can step outside their little boxes and really understand the issues and problems. And perhaps the rest of us can step into these little boxes to understand the American perspectives to the issues and problems.

Keep your stance, but understand and respect others'.

As an American, I think the worst kind of America bashing is those that treat America's strengths as weaknesses -- that blame our ideals for a lack of "safety."

Those that criticize freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the 4th Amendment, the 5th Amendment, etc, as getting in the way of the "war on terror" are the true "blame America first" crowd.

Those that think we are vulnerable because we are free -- that blame freedom for terrorism -- are America bashing.

Those that think dissent weakens rather than strengthens and should be silenced are America bashing.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

Pretty much exactly what Cat Tribe said.

As an American, I think the worst kind of America bashing is those that treat America's strengths as weaknesses -- that blame our ideals for a lack of "safety."

Those that criticize freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the 4th Amendment, the 5th Amendment, etc, as getting in the way of the "war on terror" are the true "blame America first" crowd.

Those that think we are vulnerable because we are free -- that blame freedom for terrorism -- are America bashing.

Those that think dissent weakens rather than strengthens and should be silenced are America bashing.

They should be ashamed of themselves.
I just want to point out...it seems there is a real division WITHIN the US as well in this regard...can we call US citizens "American bashers" too? I suppose each side could consider the other "American bashers"...ah...subjectivity...

America bashing is basically any illogical attack on America. It's fine to criticize, but character assaults (calling us "fat" and "stupid" in broad sweeps) and unfair criticisms are not alright. Also, blaming everything on America is "bashing" as well. (Mainly, I'm referring to those who seem to put more blame on America in the War on Terror than on the terrorists.)

I've got dual citizenship (Canadian and American) and some people are way too fucking uptight, man. Like the thread I made laughing about Bush falling off his bike. One poster said that it was "Sanctimonius canadians" like me who were makign Canada look bad in the States, not the horrific Fox news coverage of our country. Yet, all I was doing was laughing at my mental image of a man I normally see in a suit and tie falling off his bike and needing medical assistance for it.

I cant tolerate the blanket statements made about America.

I cant tolerate smug comments made by people in other who think the understand Amercia, based on information from the media.

And I often see ignorant comments made by people who make it clear that they are miserable with their own lives, their own towns, cities and countries-people that have no faith in anything, including themselves, trying to belong by jumping on that cock-eyed bandwagon that always seems to need to put in the bad word for America. You'll see this pop up even in threads about food or music.

The frequency and volume of America bashing in this forum has reached a level so that even the valid negative statements about America have lost their edge and are virtually insignificant, in my opinion.

I was 'bashing' an American until recently. But she was my girlfriend, so I guess it's ok.. ;)

/peurile snigger

Usually, it's an attack on the people themselves, blatent stereotyping, and taking the moral high ground.

As an American, I think the worst kind of America bashing is those that treat America's strengths as weaknesses -- that blame our ideals for a lack of "safety."

Those that criticize freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the 4th Amendment, the 5th Amendment, etc, as getting in the way of the "war on terror" are the true "blame America first" crowd.

Those that think we are vulnerable because we are free -- that blame freedom for terrorism -- are America bashing.

Those that think dissent weakens rather than strengthens and should be silenced are America bashing.

They should be ashamed of themselves.


To be honest... I haven't yet seen a single post describing America as "free and therefore vulnerable".

America bashing is basically any illogical attack on America. It's fine to criticize, but character assaults (calling us "fat" and "stupid" in broad sweeps) and unfair criticisms are not alright. Also, blaming everything on America is "bashing" as well. (Mainly, I'm referring to those who seem to put more blame on America in the War on Terror than on the terrorists.)

In fairness... America killed more people in the "War on Terror" than the terrorists did. Maybe that's where that comes from.

I've got dual citizenship (Canadian and American) and some people are way too fucking uptight, man. Like the thread I made laughing about Bush falling off his bike. One poster said that it was "Sanctimonius canadians" like me who were makign Canada look bad in the States, not the horrific Fox news coverage of our country. Yet, all I was doing was laughing at my mental image of a man I normally see in a suit and tie falling off his bike and needing medical assistance for it.
This is a good example, I think, of how things get taken too far. I was surprised at the reaction of that thread too. I often feel as though I can not make comments about the US (despite the fact that what the US does has so much impact on Canada) because someone will immediately read more into what I'm saying and take it as US bashing. Prickly pride is the feeling I get from these people, and I don't like the way these things escalate.

I just want to point out...it seems there is a real division WITHIN the US as well in this regard...can we call US citizens "American bashers" too? I suppose each side could consider the other "American bashers"...ah...subjectivity...


There is a population of whiners that live here, but aspire to reach that lofty goal of being a member of the self proclaimed intelligista, where its in fashion to look down on the US and how we do things.
Its likely a large portion of these people still live with mommy and daddy and work part time in retail or fast-food. Its funny that one day, they will grow up, pay their own bills, get some responsibilty and their views will take a 180 degree turn.

Americans in general tend to have a pretty good sense of humor about themselves and their place in the world, but it's nearly impossible to get a lock on us. We're a really diverse country with people from all manner of backgrounds and cultures. I tend not to think of us as a melting pot, but rather a chunky soup.

In my travels about the United States, I've only noticed a few constants:

1] We're pretty opinionated, even if we don't know the full facts.
2] We like to hear ourselves talk.
3] We're a pretty emotional lot. Think, for a comparative example, of the difference in reaction to a major city getting bombed between us and the Brits. We shriveled up into a corner, cried, ate a bucket of ice cream, and wimpered for a couple of days, licking our wounds while the Brits shrugged and said, "Well, now, wasn't that something."
4] Midwesterners don't seen to talk much and aren't very affectionate. Texans are gregarious and loud, forever the Libertarians at heart with an opinion on *everything*. Northeasterners seem a pretty proud bunch, often boastful. West Coasters all seem crazy.
5] Americans really, really, really love to eat.

Bashing? I don't honestly think it's possible. Oh, sure, you can scream "Death to America!!" and burn a flag and 95% of us will see you on TV and say, "Well, now, wasn't that something." You can bring up our fat laziness and we'll often shrug, eat some fried chicken, and plop down on the couch to watch the latest American Idol or Original HBO Movie(tm), indifferent to our laziness and secure in our knowledge that the sun will still rise in the morning.

Most of us just simply don't care about the stereotypes. We know they're true, but our stereotypes are one of our sources of pride. So, when someone gets all up in arms about an American standard, we often say, "Damn right, pal."

The only constant I do not like about the experience of being American is that at least half of us are unconcerned with the rest of the world. In many cases, we don't even realise there are other States, much less countries. We're not a very global people. I find that a little sad. I've often thought about it and have decided that it's because the reason most of us are here is because our ancestors ran away from, or were kicked out of, one of those "other countries" and our collective psyches have decided it's best not to think about it.

So bash away. Sometimes you'll hit one of us close to home and we'll roll our eyes and make an effort to defend ourselves, but mostly you'll find we chuckle and agree with you.

I cant tolerate the blanket statements made about America.

I cant tolerate smug comments made by people in other who think the understand Amercia, based on information from the media.

And I often see ignorant comments made by people who make it clear that they are miserable with their own lives, their own towns, cities and countries-people that have no faith in anything, including themselves, trying to belong by jumping on that cock-eyed bandwagon that always seems to need to put in the bad word for America. You'll see this pop up even in threads about food or music.
Turn this around. This is how I feel about ALL the bashing that goes on...whether its directed at France, Canada, the UK or wherever.

The frequency and volume of America bashing in this forum has reached a level so that even the valid negative statements about America have lost their edge and are virtually insignificant, in my opinion. I agree...but I think there is also something to be said for the virulent 'defense of American uber alles' that goes on too. I find you can't really discuss anything about the US...its policies, its history, its actions, its influence anymore, because it just turns into 'bash bash, defend, bash in return, name call, name call back'. The people in the middle who would just like to talk about the subject get pulled into it and it turns into a mud fight without the hot naked chicks to make it interesting.

I was 'bashing' an American until recently. But she was my girlfriend, so I guess it's ok.. ;)

/peurile snigger
Hmmm...never have I heard 'bashing' given a sexual connotation. It doesn't work well.

I like the use of puerile though!

This is a good example, I think, of how things get taken too far. I was surprised at the reaction of that thread too. I often feel as though I can not make comments about the US (despite the fact that what the US does has so much impact on Canada) because someone will immediately read more into what I'm saying and take it as US bashing. Prickly pride is the feeling I get from these people, and I don't like the way these things escalate.
Some people are just hypersensitive... I mean, there were plenty of americans joking about how much former presidents fell downand ran into things and such during their terms in office and then there were those who apaprantly misplaced their senses of humour and were either decrying me for pointing and laughing at the situation or complaining about the media having nothing better to report.

And it's quite hypocritical of some people too, as they sit there and bash Canada for anything with the most vile language and attitude, yet when a canadian says "This whole idea of draining an american lake that will mean huge amounts of arsenic and cyanide will be dumped into a canadian like... this whole thing might not be very good or neighbourly." or perhaps "You guys are fuckign us over with softwood lumber/cattle/whatever and it's not fair." Then one is accused of american bashing, when it is a minor complaint about something that genuninely affects us that their administration doesn't seem to give a flying fuck about. Yet for some reason, it is perfectly alright for americans to go on rants about our recent legalization of gay marriage which does not impact them in any way shape or form.

There is a population of whiners that live here, but aspire to reach that lofty goal of being a member of the self proclaimed intelligista, where its in fashion to look down on the US and how we do things.
Its likely a large portion of these people still live with mommy and daddy and work part time in retail or fast-food. Its funny that one day, they will grow up, pay their own bills, get some responsibilty and their views will take a 180 degree turn.

Now, are you making a distinction between those that criticise with the intent to enact change, and those that just seem to hate everything? Because one of the things I am bothered by the most is that no one seems to be able to make ANY criticism without automatically being considered a 'whiner' who should just shut up. To me, that goes so counter to what the US wants to be about as to be baffling.

I think that alot of the "America bashing" is just people voicing their opinions without being fully informed of the diversity of America. I mean, yes, we have rednecks, hippies, murderers, fat people, homophobes, black hoodlums, white trash....etc. etc. etc. But we also have kind, compassionate, caring individuals. We have heros, we have brilliant minds, and love it or hate it, we are the land of the Big Mac(my favorite food!) America bashing is when people say all the bad things about America, but won't admit all the good things too! I hate Christians who shove religion in my face just as much as the next person, but look at all the good they do in poverty stricken countrys around the world. And look at ww1 and ww2. We didn't win it alone, but hey, WE WERE THERE! We helped out, because thats what "most" Americans do! Maybe we shouldn't have gone to Iraq, but ya know what? Bashing it won't take it back, so give us a hand, help us mop up, and we'll all move on. All I ask is that people look at both sides of America before Bashing, and I promise, I'll even look at the good in France!

Clearly, a number US citizens on this forum feel that they are being unjustly 'bashed'. Some of you are right. Some of you, however, see bashing where none exists. In fact, quite often the topic has nothing to do with the US or with its citizens, and suddenly, accusations fly about "American-bashing". I'm a bit baffled, so I'd like to look into this a bit deeper.

How do YOU personally define "American bashing"?

Is any criticism of the US, it's people or administration? Is it specific criticisms? Is it the way such criticisms are phrased (clearly flaming or otherwise)? What types of comments get you riled up the most and feeling attacked?

I'd like, if at all possible, to discuss the perceptions of US citizens about "American bashing", and the perceptions of those who are accused of doing it. I'm wondering how much of our conflict is built up beyond the reality of the situation, and how much is valid. PLEASE try to be cordial. I don't want personal attacks, from anyone, towards anyone else. Phrase your comments to be respectful, even if they include 'examples' which are not. Thanks.

PS. I'm choosing to talk about American bashing rather than conservative/liberal/atheist/Christian or whatever else bashing, because I think the polarization on NS is often more the US against the world or visa versa. That's just MY perception:).


OK, I'll take the bait. As an American citizen, I feel it crosses the line into "American-bashing" when you start painting all of us with a broad brush, because of the actions of our so-called elected officials (I still believe the elections were not legitimate.)

Many of us Americans are in disagreement with a lot of the actions of our current Bush Administration, including myself. I do not feel the current government represents me...and I do not like many of the things it is doing in my name around the world, and here at home...for example, the Iraq war...Gitmo...Abu Ghraib...etc, etc.

When you have a beef with the actions of the American government, by all means, express that...but do not paint all Americans with the same brush, because many of us feel the same way you do about the actions of our government.

If you have a beef with the American government, that is fine, and it is legitimate. You cross the line into "America-bashing" in my opinion, when you start to say that all Americans are this...or all Americans are that...or all Americans believe this...or that. Or when you say that Americans do not care about the rest of the world, or say that Americans are xenophobic...and you start dragging out that "Ugly American" thing.

I understand where it comes from, but the rest of the world needs to know that there are plenty of Americans who are in just as much dissent over the actions of our government as you are, and are ashamed and embarrassed to be "represented" by the stupid "cowboy" from Texas.

That is all.

ON EDIT: No, that isn't all. One other thing I would like to add to this...whenever there is any kind of disaster in the world, an earthquake in Italy, or the tsunami, or a typhoon in Japan...we are usually the first on the scene with help, with medical and food aid, and with financial support. I'm betting that a significant percentage of funds collected to aid in disaster relief, worldwide...come from America...from Americans - Americans who DO care. I know our current government sucks. But please do not judge all of us by the actions of our government.

That is all.

My big problem with America, is that generally the americans don't seem to know or care much about the rest of the world.

Bashing to me is generalising or giving unsubstantiated statements of attack. This is the case whether its vs liberals, conservatives, christians, atheists, americans, europeans, anyone.

for example, if i say "i'm anti american coz they're all assholes" that's bashing. If I say "I'm anti many american policies, such as refusal to accept kyoto style agreements, refusal to accept the validity of the greenhouse affect officially and the way in which the war on terror was initiated and carried out" then I'm giving a valid statement. if asked to go into more details of why I disaprove then i should.

It strikes me that there is a cadre of posters who are hypersensitive to anything that may be considered as criticism of their beloved country. Thus, for some 'America Bashing' is anything that is critical of the USA, its government, its foreign policy, its economics, its people, its sports etc. etc. These posters have no respect from me. They are not willing to consider that their way may not be the best way, and as such will be permanently stuck doing things the only way they know how.

For me, "America Bashing" is placing the blame for something on the USA without there being any justification for this. If it is justified, it is criticism, not bashing. Additionally there is the problem of implying that only the USA is to blame for something when it patently is a much wider problem.

Mainly, it's making things personal.

For example:

Instead Of: "Your President's foreign policy is too agressive, because etc, etc, and should be etc, etc"

America Bashers Say: "Bush is war mongering liar idiot cowboy from Texas!"

Instead Of: "Capitalist policies harm the poor and the downtrodden."

America Bashers Say: "American Imperialist Lying Oppressors!"

See, it's not so much what is said but how it's said.

I don't see criticism of policy as America bashing. I don't see criticism of our politicians that way either.

To me America bashing is when some people automatically view America to be some evil conspiracy to rule the world. When they interpret everything the American government does as some scheme to get richer rather than recognizing that much of what we do is intended to make the world a little better (we don't always succeed).

Every nation looks out for it's own interests, but somehow when America does so it's taken as evidence of some evil selfishness by certain foreign critics of my nation. Even when we try to act in the spirit of good will it's seen as part of some dark conspiracy by some. To these America bashers there's a hidden US conspiracy behind every world event. In fact one guy on this forum yesterday said that it wouldn't surprise him if the CIA was behind the London bombings.

It seems that some people root for America to fail. They seem to be gleefull when our plans face opposition, joyfull when we fail, and ecstatic if we suffer. Some of these same people live in nations that were once superpowers. Nations that used their power to build collonial empires that acted in pure self interest and with little regard to the conquered people. They seem to forget that when they had their turn at being world powers they didn't do much better than America, and in many cases did a damn sight worse. They don't discuss that history, but they happily talk about the slaughter of Indians, our involvement in Vietnam, and other dark points in US history. They minimize the sacrifices made by US soldiers in the first and second world war (we didn't fight the war alone, but we did make a difference). They never want to admit that my nation accomplished anything. On top of all that they like to tar all Americans with the "fat, stupid and arrogant" label.

Personally I think the America bashers are the stupid, arrogant ones.

In fairness... America killed more people in the "War on Terror" than the terrorists did. Maybe that's where that comes from.

is this a good example of america bashing? :P

I think that alot of the "America bashing" is just people voicing their opinions without being fully informed of the diversity of America. I mean, yes, we have rednecks, hippies, murderers, fat people, homophobes, black hoodlums, white trash....etc. etc. etc. But we also have kind, compassionate, caring individuals. We have heros, we have brilliant minds, and love it or hate it, we are the land of the Big Mac(my favorite food!) America bashing is when people say all the bad things about America, but won't admit all the good things too! I hate Christians who shove religion in my face just as much as the next person, but look at all the good they do in poverty stricken countrys around the world. And look at ww1 and ww2. We didn't win it alone, but hey, WE WERE THERE! We helped out, because thats what "most" Americans do! Maybe we shouldn't have gone to Iraq, but ya know what? Bashing it won't take it back, so give us a hand, help us mop up, and we'll all move on. All I ask is that people look at both sides of America before Bashing, and I promise, I'll even look at the good in France!

This is what I hear a lot of too..."why doesn't anyone ever mention the good about the US"? Well...come on now, we're talking politics. How many threads about other countries sit and discuss all the wonderful good things about that country? I mean...does anyone just want to sit around and pat one another on the back? When something major happens, sure...but those things aren't the ones that need fixing. When we discuss negatives, for most people its not just about dwelling on them for the sake of dwelling on them...its about thinking of ways to improve. Now, people from the US might say, "Well that's us, and it's none of your business", but frankly, what you do affects us all because of the power and influence you have. The political machinations of Belize doesn't impact Canada, or the rest of the world much, hence the lack of discussion about them.

Most people who discuss US issues point out they aren't talking about the people. Can you blame any population for their government? Only to a certain extent. So, when some bring up a US policy they don't like, that actually impacts them, it isn't necessarily from the viewpoint that "The US is evil and bad" but rather, "wow, look at how this policy affects us!"

is this a good example of america bashing? :P
Yep :headbang:

Hmmm...never have I heard 'bashing' given a sexual connotation. It doesn't work well.

I like the use of puerile though!
Never heard the phrase 'bashing the bishop'? (wanking)

My big problem with America, is that generally the americans don't seem to know or care much about the rest of the world.

do you know how big america is? We are an isolated country, it's a little more difficult for us to care about other countries because of this.

I don't see criticism of policy as America bashing. I don't see criticism of our politicians that way either.

To me America bashing is when some people automatically view America to be some evil conspiracy to rule the world. When they interpret everything the American government does as some scheme to get richer rather than recognizing that much of what we do is intended to make the world a little better (we don't always succeed).

Every nation looks out for it's own interests, but somehow when America does so it's taken as evidence of some evil selfishness by certain foreign critics of my nation. Even when we try to act in the spirit of good will it's seen as part of some dark conspiracy by some. To these America bashers there's a hidden US conspiracy behind every world event. In fact one guy on this forum yesterday said that it wouldn't surprise him if the CIA was behind the London bombings.

It seems that some people root for America to fail. They seem to be gleefull when our plans face opposition, joyfull when we fail, and ecstatic if we suffer. Some of these same people live in nations that were once superpowers. Nations that used their power to build collonial empires that acted in pure self interest and with little regard to the conquered people. They seem to forget that when they had their turn at being world powers they didn't do much better than America, and in many cases did a damn sight worse. They don't discuss that history, but they happily talk about the slaughter of Indians, our involvement in Vietnam, and other dark points in US history. They minimize the sacrifices made by US soldiers in the first and second world war (we didn't fight the war alone, but we did make a difference). They never want to admit that my nation accomplished anything. On top of all that they like to tar all Americans with the "fat, stupid and arrogant" label.

Personally I think the America bashers are the stupid, arrogant ones.

Well said. You might be an America basher if what you write here is something you would not say in person in RL. Tone and choice of words is as important as substance.

Criticize policies and politicians to your heart's content, though.

is this a good example of america bashing? :P

In what way? Terrorist attacks (al-Quaida exclusively) killed how many? 6000?
How many Afghans and Iraqis were killed? Not soldiers, civilians?
Last number I read was an estimated 10 000 in Iraq alone...

It strikes me that there is a cadre of posters who are hypersensitive to anything that may be considered as criticism of their beloved country. Thus, for some 'America Bashing' is anything that is critical of the USA, its government, its foreign policy, its economics, its people, its sports etc. etc. These posters have no respect from me. They are not willing to consider that their way may not be the best way, and as such will be permanently stuck doing things the only way they know how.
Yes. These are the ones that disturb me, and unfortunately get me the most riled up. Because they accuse others of taking the 'moral highground, of acting superior, of thinking they know what is best for everyone' at the same time they are doing exactly what they accuse others of. But the more you try to point out that this is NOT how you are approaching the subject, the more convinced they are that they are right.

Sometimes I wonder if we really speak the same language when such misunderstandings can occur.

[For me, "America Bashing" is placing the blame for something on the USA without there being any justification for this. If it is justified, it is criticism, not bashing. Additionally there is the problem of implying that only the USA is to blame for something when it patently is a much wider problem.
Yup. I try to stay out of the Iraq contraversy, because frankly, I know more about pre-recent-invasion of Iraq (effect of sanctions, etc) than I do about what is actually happening right now.

But other issues I can approach with a fair amount of justification, and I am more than aware that there are also people in the US who feel this way and are trying to get things changed.

3] We're a pretty emotional lot. Think, for a comparative example, of the difference in reaction to a major city getting bombed between us and the Brits. We shriveled up into a corner, cried, ate a bucket of ice cream, and wimpered for a couple of days, licking our wounds while the Brits shrugged and said, "Well, now, wasn't that something."

Maybe that's how they acted in Texas, but the people around me after 9/11 weren't scared. They were angry. A little confused too. "Who's this Al Kada guy?" I haven't heard the song "Don't Tread on Me" off of the Metallica black album played so much on radio before or since that time.

Never heard the phrase 'bashing the bishop'? (wanking)
Nope...and it creates a kind of funny picture of a miniature pope's hat and cape on the tip...ah, nevermind:)

Sometimes I feel like I want someone to review an argument or debate to tell me, am I really American bashing (when I've been accused of it, I can't help but get off track trying to explain I'm not, and then things just turn into a mess)? It'd be nice if we had some sort of "BASHING INTERVENTION TEAM":) People you could ask to review your comments, and the comments of others to see if they are indeed as biased as others think they are!

My big problem with America, is that generally the americans don't seem to know or care much about the rest of the world.

I'd like to answer to this statement!

In defense of my fellow citizens...have you ever been exposed to U.S. major media? We don't get much coverage of things that happen outside the United States. It, therefore takes a bunch of effort to get informed about things our major media refuses to inform us about. Many of us Americans work two and three jobs to make ends meet, and to raise our families, because our economy fuckin' sucks. We don't often have the time or the energy, or the inclination to find out things our major media won't tell us, because we are too exhausted from working. From just dealing with the day-to-day problems of making a living in the good old U.S. of A.

I think you will find that only Japan works more hours per year, average, than America. We work very hard, and yet, we still have a hard time making ends meet. When things are not okay at home...concerns begin to telescope, and you find the average American who is worried about putting food on the table doesn't really give a shit when the Poles march into Zimbabwe, or whatever. It is hard to look past your own personal concerns when you are, as many of my countrymen and women are...one paycheck away from bankruptcy. I know, I, myself am in that boat.

Fact is...many americans do not even REALIZE the way in which our major media shorts us on world information. Because many Americans have never been exposed to foreign media.

I discovered this when I went to Bangkok, Thailand, in October-November of 2002. I went to get some "elective" surgery done, and it was far cheaper to do it overseas, and so I did. Thus, I spent my first week in Thailand in a hospital bed. There were two TV stations in English, and so I watched them. One was the Starz movie channel. The other was BBC.

BBC opened my eyes as to how crappy our major media is. I had never had any idea how much news from around the world just never gets reported in America. Perhaps our major media outlets do not believe it is important. Example, I went right at the time of the American mid-term elections, as well as the Turkish elections. BBC covered both elections. In America, I doubt many even knew that Turkey had had elections, much less that in 2002, the Turkish government got a major overhaul in the elections of 2002...the new party in power, I believe was the Justice and Progress Party? I don't really remember exactly, but I do remember that this party had never before been in power. I'd never had known about this if I'd depended on American media outlets. They wouldn't have reported it. Or, if they had...it would have been a ten-second blip, easily missed.

American media DOES tend to be very isolationist. I wasn't really aware of this until I got my first taste of foreign media outlets like BBC. I, personally, very much enjoyed getting that kind of coverage I saw on BBC, and wish that sort of coverage were more readily available, and easily accessible here in the United States.

In closing, may I say my heart, my prayers, and my hopes are with the people of London today, in light of the horrible tragedy visited upon my British brothers and sisters across the pond yesterday.

I'd like to answer to this statement!

In defense of my fellow citizens...have you ever been exposed to U.S. major media? We don't get much coverage of things that happen outside the United States. It, therefore takes a bunch of effort to get informed about things our major media refuses to inform us about. Many of us Americans work two and three jobs to make ends meet, and to raise our families, because our economy fuckin' sucks. We don't often have the time or the energy, or the inclination to find out things our major media won't tell us, because we are too exhausted from working. From just dealing with the day-to-day problems of making a living in the good old U.S. of A.

I think you will find that only Japan works more hours per year, average, than America. We work very hard, and yet, we still have a hard time making ends meet. When things are not okay at home...concerns begin to telescope, and you find the average American who is worried about putting food on the table doesn't really give a shit when the Poles march into Zimbabwe, or whatever. It is hard to look past your own personal concerns when you are, as many of my countrymen and women are...one paycheck away from bankruptcy. I know, I, myself am in that boat.

Fact is...many americans do not even REALIZE the way in which our major media shorts us on world information. Because many Americans have never been exposed to foreign media.

I discovered this when I went to Bangkok, Thailand, in October-November of 2002. I went to get some "elective" surgery done, and it was far cheaper to do it overseas, and so I did. Thus, I spent my first week in Thailand in a hospital bed. There were two TV stations in English, and so I watched them. One was the Starz movie channel. The other was BBC.

BBC opened my eyes as to how crappy our major media is. I had never had any idea how much news from around the world just never gets reported in America. Perhaps our major media outlets do not believe it is important. Example, I went right at the time of the American mid-term elections, as well as the Turkish elections. BBC covered both elections. In America, I doubt many even knew that Turkey had had elections, much less that in 2002, the Turkish government got a major overhaul in the elections of 2002...the new party in power, I believe was the Justice and Progress Party? I don't really remember exactly, but I do remember that this party had never before been in power. I'd never had known about this if I'd depended on American media outlets. They wouldn't have reported it. Or, if they had...it would have been a ten-second blip, easily missed.

American media DOES tend to be very isolationist. I wasn't really aware of this until I got my first taste of foreign media outlets like BBC. I, personally, very much enjoyed getting that kind of coverage I saw on BBC, and wish that sort of coverage were more readily available, and easily accessible here in the United States.

In closing, may I say my heart, my prayers, and my hopes are with the people of London today, in light of the horrible tragedy visited upon my British brothers and sisters across the pond yesterday.
Many public radio stations broadcast the BBC world service news hour in the morning and a program called "The World" in the afternoon/evening that's partly produced by the BBC. If you want better coverage of world news I'd suggest you check them out.

do you know how big america is? We are an isolated country, it's a little more difficult for us to care about other countries because of this.

Not too much of an excuse. Where I live is a little bigger, and rather more isolated, yet the educated population manage to keep up an interest in events elsewhere.

Nope...and it creates a kind of funny picture of a miniature pope's hat and cape on the tip...ah, nevermind:)
Yeah, mine has all that. And a goofy face biro-ed onto the bell.. o_O
But that's only for special occasions, like when I'm taking him for a walk..

3] We're a pretty emotional lot. Think, for a comparative example, of the difference in reaction to a major city getting bombed between us and the Brits. We shriveled up into a corner, cried, ate a bucket of ice cream, and wimpered for a couple of days, licking our wounds while the Brits shrugged and said, "Well, now, wasn't that something."



My brothers and I went to ground zero and helped dig out. We brought 20 2.5 gallong containers of drinking water, saline solution and a case of leather palmed gloves so other volunteers that didnt have gloves to work or had already shredded theirs could keep going. There wasnt much whimpering or buckets of ice cream. There were buckets of rubble on a bucket brigade.
There was resolve, comradery and hope we would be there when someone living was rescued.
Speak for yourself-not a lot of people shriveled that day. Many rose to the occassion and helped other people.
If London was a 2 hour car ride like NYC was, I'd take a few days off and see if could help there too.

Thats something else about Americans.

In what way? Terrorist attacks (al-Quaida exclusively) killed how many? 6000?
How many Afghans and Iraqis were killed? Not soldiers, civilians?
Last number I read was an estimated 10 000 in Iraq alone...

do you know the difference between an accident and a deliberate act?

please don't compare Americans to terrorists.

I'd like to answer to this statement!

In defense of my fellow citizens...have you ever been exposed to U.S. major media? We don't get much coverage of things that happen outside the United States. It, therefore takes a bunch of effort to get informed about things our major media refuses to inform us about. Many of us Americans work two and three jobs to make ends meet, and to raise our families, because our economy fuckin' sucks. We don't often have the time or the energy, or the inclination to find out things our major media won't tell us, because we are too exhausted from working. From just dealing with the day-to-day problems of making a living in the good old U.S. of A.

I think you will find that only Japan works more hours per year, average, than America. We work very hard, and yet, we still have a hard time making ends meet. When things are not okay at home...concerns begin to telescope, and you find the average American who is worried about putting food on the table doesn't really give a shit when the Poles march into Zimbabwe, or whatever. It is hard to look past your own personal concerns when you are, as many of my countrymen and women are...one paycheck away from bankruptcy. I know, I, myself am in that boat.

Fact is...many americans do not even REALIZE the way in which our major media shorts us on world information. Because many Americans have never been exposed to foreign media.

I discovered this when I went to Bangkok, Thailand, in October-November of 2002. I went to get some "elective" surgery done, and it was far cheaper to do it overseas, and so I did. Thus, I spent my first week in Thailand in a hospital bed. There were two TV stations in English, and so I watched them. One was the Starz movie channel. The other was BBC.

BBC opened my eyes as to how crappy our major media is. I had never had any idea how much news from around the world just never gets reported in America. Perhaps our major media outlets do not believe it is important. Example, I went right at the time of the American mid-term elections, as well as the Turkish elections. BBC covered both elections. In America, I doubt many even knew that Turkey had had elections, much less that in 2002, the Turkish government got a major overhaul in the elections of 2002...the new party in power, I believe was the Justice and Progress Party? I don't really remember exactly, but I do remember that this party had never before been in power. I'd never had known about this if I'd depended on American media outlets. They wouldn't have reported it. Or, if they had...it would have been a ten-second blip, easily missed.

American media DOES tend to be very isolationist. I wasn't really aware of this until I got my first taste of foreign media outlets like BBC. I, personally, very much enjoyed getting that kind of coverage I saw on BBC, and wish that sort of coverage were more readily available, and easily accessible here in the United States.


.


Don't worry about that too much...the Canadian media has become more and more like that too.

Frankly, everything you've described here also sounds like a lot of Canadians I know. I mean, really, all of us on this forum are kind of the 'cream of the crop' in the sense that we spend time discussing world politics and events, while the majority of people in our nations do not. I don't know what it is that makes it seem that this is a purely American thing, to be 'ignorant' of the world around them...plenty of Canuks are too...maybe we just hear about it more from the Americans because they have MORE media than us? I don't know.

I had a similar experience to you about having my eyes opened to how limited the Canadian media was. When I started traveling through Latin America nearly 12 years ago now, I couldn't BELIEVE how even the poorest of the poor had an incredibly astute political analysis both of their own nation, and the rest of the world. Some of these people weren't even literate, but they kicked my ass during debates:) I was stunned! And the television channels...wow. I mean, you turn on the tv at 6 here, and all the channels cover the exact same stories, with slight variations. In Latin America, you have the state channel, the right channel, the left channel, the labour channel, the whatever-else channel, all with their biases well known, and different coverage. Flipping through them was unreal...I learned more about what was going on in the world during those nights in front of Peruvian, Chilean or Salvadorian tv than I ever did at home.

I came back ashamed at my country's lack of basic political awareness. I still am ashamed. Yet, you point this out to people, and they get really, really offended. All I want is for them to see these things too, become more aware and informed...yes, we work hard, we have fast paced lives...but god, is this really what we want our lives to be like? People around the world work hard...I'd argue HARDER than us because they do more back-breaking physical work, longer hours, with less benefits...but so many of them still have time to enjoy their families, their communities, their lives...and still have the time to learn enough about MY FUCKING COUNTRY that they could shame me into absolute silence with a history lesson about the role of women in ALBERTA...wow. That was embarrassing. I guess in many countries, politics is entertainment, you talk about it with friends and families. In North America, it seems a sure way to start a fight.

do you know how big america is? We are an isolated country, it's a little more difficult for us to care about other countries because of this.

I'm in the UK. We have no borders with anyone. You do.

Speak for yourself-not a lot of people shriveled that day. Many rose to the occassion and helped other people.

I meant collectively, not individually.

We did shrivel into a corner. All of America did, regardless of what individuals may have done and the bravery they showed, America did die a little inside. We were put on hold for a few days. There is no denying it.

Though I do find it amusing that the two comments on my post focused on that one part. Maybe I should have included something about self-denial. ;)

I'd like to answer to this statement!

In defense of my fellow citizens...have you ever been exposed to U.S. major media? We don't get much coverage of things that happen outside the United States. It, therefore takes a bunch of effort to get informed about things our major media refuses to inform us about. Many of us Americans work two and three jobs to make ends meet, and to raise our families, because our economy fuckin' sucks. We don't often have the time or the energy, or the inclination to find out things our major media won't tell us, because we are too exhausted from working. From just dealing with the day-to-day problems of making a living in the good old U.S. of A.

I think you will find that only Japan works more hours per year, average, than America. We work very hard, and yet, we still have a hard time making ends meet. When things are not okay at home...concerns begin to telescope, and you find the average American who is worried about putting food on the table doesn't really give a shit when the Poles march into Zimbabwe, or whatever. It is hard to look past your own personal concerns when you are, as many of my countrymen and women are...one paycheck away from bankruptcy. I know, I, myself am in that boat.

Fact is...many americans do not even REALIZE the way in which our major media shorts us on world information. Because many Americans have never been exposed to foreign media.

I discovered this when I went to Bangkok, Thailand, in October-November of 2002. I went to get some "elective" surgery done, and it was far cheaper to do it overseas, and so I did. Thus, I spent my first week in Thailand in a hospital bed. There were two TV stations in English, and so I watched them. One was the Starz movie channel. The other was BBC.

BBC opened my eyes as to how crappy our major media is. I had never had any idea how much news from around the world just never gets reported in America. Perhaps our major media outlets do not believe it is important. Example, I went right at the time of the American mid-term elections, as well as the Turkish elections. BBC covered both elections. In America, I doubt many even knew that Turkey had had elections, much less that in 2002, the Turkish government got a major overhaul in the elections of 2002...the new party in power, I believe was the Justice and Progress Party? I don't really remember exactly, but I do remember that this party had never before been in power. I'd never had known about this if I'd depended on American media outlets. They wouldn't have reported it. Or, if they had...it would have been a ten-second blip, easily missed.

American media DOES tend to be very isolationist. I wasn't really aware of this until I got my first taste of foreign media outlets like BBC. I, personally, very much enjoyed getting that kind of coverage I saw on BBC, and wish that sort of coverage were more readily available, and easily accessible here in the United States.

In closing, may I say my heart, my prayers, and my hopes are with the people of London today, in light of the horrible tragedy visited upon my British brothers and sisters across the pond yesterday.


I understand all that. People can't help the fact that noone tells them these things.

The annoying bit of it is when threads about issues whach affect everyone come up, it doesn't seem to occur to most of the Americans that anyone outide America might be interested.

In closing, may I say my heart, my prayers, and my hopes are with the people of London today, in light of the horrible tragedy visited upon my British brothers and sisters across the pond yesterday.

Seconded

do you know the difference between an accident and a deliberate act?

please don't compare Americans to terrorists.

I don't. That was never my intention.

I was just trying to explain the sentiments of a large number of people... to be honest, if I was one of those corpses, I couldn't care less if that was intentional or an accident. The result is the same... a dead person.

I meant collectively, not individually.

We did shrivel into a corner. All of America did, regardless of what individuals may have done and the bravery they showed, America did die a little inside. We were put on hold for a few days. There is no denying it.

Though I do find it amusing that the two comments on my post focused on that one part. Maybe I should have included something about self-denial. ;)


No-maybe you should just speak for yourself and your own experience-not proclaim you're able to analyse the psyche of a nation. I dont know where you were that Americans were shriveling in corners.

My big problem with America, is that generally the americans don't seem to know or care much about the rest of the world.


I'm sorry but that is way over the top. I, along with the entirety of my whole town, raised $69,836 for Tsunami aid. We held dinners, auctions and bake sales. Hell, 20 of us even travelled 170 miles to hold a big-ass car wash in the city of Columbus, our states capital. I pride myself on helping with the Tsunami relief effort and my neighbors 3 children, 2 boys and a daughter, are in the peacecorp, helping over there right now.

While it is true that SOME Americans do not care about the rest of the world, it is sure has hell NOT a "general" thing.

I'm in the UK. We have no borders with anyone. You do.

sure we share borders, but how big is the UK compared to.... say, Texas, or Alaska. or even California? UK is comparitively(sp) a smaller nation than the US, and you are closer to a lot more countries than we are.

But i think Lyric/Sinuhue put it best in answering your question.

No-maybe you should just speak for yourself and your own experience-not proclaim you're able to analyse the psyche of a nation. I dont know where you were that Americans were shriveling in corners.

*Americans* did not shrivel.

*America* did.

We postponed the World Series, for pete's sake. Our national passtime put on hold is a sign that America shriveled a bit. It can not be denied.

sure we share borders, but how big is the UK compared to.... say, Texas, or Alaska. or even California? UK is comparitively(sp) a smaller nation than the US, and you are closer to a lot more countries than we are.

But i think Lyric/Sinuhue put it best in answering your question.

The UK is roughly the size of Ohio.

I don't. That was never my intention.

I was just trying to explain the sentiments of a large number of people... to be honest, if I was one of those corpses, I couldn't care less if that was intentional or an accident. The result is the same... a dead person.

Yes, to a corpse it doesn't matter how it was killed. however to the people still alive, it matters. If my brother died in an accident, i'm not going to be as upset as i would be if he died in a terrorist attack.

let me paraphrase, but what i believe you said was, "Americans has killed more civilians than terrorists".... if that's not a comparison i don't know what is.

EVERYTHING is about the context, including how we die.

I'm sorry but that is way over the top. I, along with the entirety of my whole town, raised $69,836 for Tsunami aid. We held dinners, auctions and bake sales. Hell, 20 of us even travelled 170 miles to hold a big-ass car wash in the city of Columbus, our states capital. I pride myself on helping with the Tsunami relief effort and my neighbors 3 children, 2 boys and a daughter, are in the peacecorp, helping over there right now.

While it is true that SOME Americans do not care about the rest of the world, it is sure has hell NOT a "general" thing.

Nice work. A lot of us took part in this too-we were involved in relief efforts with our church, the scouts and the Mom's Club.

You're right-its not a general thing. Many of us care and many of us make concerted efforts and sacrafice.

Ha, and I have just relized something. This thread has become something we were supposed to give an opinion on. I guess these are very, eh hem, expressive, opinions.

*Americans* did not shrivel.

*America* did.

We postponed the World Series, for pete's sake. Our national passtime put on hold is a sign that America shriveled a bit. It can not be denied.
Oh enough. Shriveled has some very extreme connotations, and is simply YOUR perception. Many others will disagree with that assessment. So, as CL has asked, speak for yourself in terms of your opinion of what the US reaction was.

Ha, and I have just relized something. This thread has become something we were supposed to give an opinion on. I guess these are very, eh hem, expressive, opinions.
No, I don't think this is "AMERICA BASHING" so far...we are still discussing perceptions, correcting misconceptions, and discussing viewpoints.

Oh enough. Shriveled has some very extreme connotations, and is simply YOUR perception. Many others will disagree with that assessment. So, as CL has asked, speak for yourself in terms of your opinion of what the US reaction was.

You make a thread concerning America Bashing and you then call for people to speak for themselves? I find that deliciously amusing.

I find I don't take most of this stuff seriously. Polls can be skewed towards a certain viewpoint, especially on the web. Anonymous people can write whatever they want, whether or not it is true.

Americans bash Canadians, they bash us, Europeans bash everyone, and I just find it amusing people have the time to write such drivel.

However, I do believe the UN should have been the organization to handle the situations we find ourselves in, namely Iraq, Africa's troubles, and other such things. I find America is being called upon to do most of the dirty work, and blamed for things when it goes wrong.

But then again, politics bring out the worst in people. That's why I don't take anything on the forums seriously.

Not too much of an excuse. Where I live is a little bigger, and rather more isolated, yet the educated population manage to keep up an interest in events elsewhere.
The educated people in the USA do too. It's part of being educated.

*Americans* did not shrivel.

*America* did.

We postponed the World Series, for pete's sake. Our national passtime put on hold is a sign that America shriveled a bit. It can not be denied.


The World Series was cancelled out of respect. Many events and celebrations were cancelled. This wasnt "shriveling".
I'm denying it. I dont agree.

You make a thread concerning America Bashing and you then call for people to speak for themselves? I find that deliciously amusing.
Reread the concept of the thread. It's to discuss people's perceptions of what American bashing is. It isn't to come in and bash, or make blanket generalisations about Americans, or about America, which is what you are currently doing. So cut it out, or start a different thread if that is your agenda. And you ALWAYS have an agenda, don't you. (oops, was I generalising? Isn't that annoying?)

No, I don't think this is "AMERICA BASHING" so far...we are still discussing perceptions, correcting misconceptions, and discussing viewpoints.

good point...

Nice work. A lot of us took part in this too-we were involved in relief efforts with our church, the scouts and the Mom's Club.

You're right-its not a general thing. Many of us care and many of us make concerted efforts and sacrafice.

I know alot of Americans did some great things for the Tusnami appeal.

The Tsunami wasn't something that people can ignore, even with the US's insular news services. A Global Disaster isn't exactly day-to-day is it?

How many Americans can tell me the population of the UK, or the number of states in Europe? I can tell you the population of the US, and how many states there are, and even quote some key bits of your constitution and declaration of independance.

I'm in the UK. We have no borders with anyone. You do.
Yeah, but you can drive through a tunnel to France, and from there drive to just about any European nation. Hell, you can drive through three or four nations faster than I can drive to Arizona.

Reread the concept of the thread. It's to discuss people's perceptions of what American bashing is. It isn't to come in and bash, or make blanket generalisations about Americans, or about America, which is what you are currently doing.

I employ a literary device called "hyperbole" and people get up in arms. Astounding. Read much?


So cut it out, or start a different thread if that is your agenda. And you ALWAYS have an agenda, don't you. (oops, was I generalising? Isn't that annoying?)

Bit paranoid, ain't we?

No, I don't think this is "AMERICA BASHING" so far...we are still discussing perceptions, correcting misconceptions, and discussing viewpoints ... except Keruvalia's, who we'll dismiss out of hand.

Corrected.

Don't worry about that too much...the Canadian media has become more and more like that too.

Frankly, everything you've described here also sounds like a lot of Canadians I know. I mean, really, all of us on this forum are kind of the 'cream of the crop' in the sense that we spend time discussing world politics and events, while the majority of people in our nations do not. I don't know what it is that makes it seem that this is a purely American thing, to be 'ignorant' of the world around them...plenty of Canuks are too...maybe we just hear about it more from the Americans because they have MORE media than us? I don't know.

I had a similar experience to you about having my eyes opened to how limited the Canadian media was. When I started traveling through Latin America nearly 12 years ago now, I couldn't BELIEVE how even the poorest of the poor had an incredibly astute political analysis both of their own nation, and the rest of the world. Some of these people weren't even literate, but they kicked my ass during debates:) I was stunned! And the television channels...wow. I mean, you turn on the tv at 6 here, and all the channels cover the exact same stories, with slight variations. In Latin America, you have the state channel, the right channel, the left channel, the labour channel, the whatever-else channel, all with their biases well known, and different coverage. Flipping through them was unreal...I learned more about what was going on in the world during those nights in front of Peruvian, Chilean or Salvadorian tv than I ever did at home.

I came back ashamed at my country's lack of basic political awareness. I still am ashamed. Yet, you point this out to people, and they get really, really offended. All I want is for them to see these things too, become more aware and informed...yes, we work hard, we have fast paced lives...but god, is this really what we want our lives to be like? People around the world work hard...I'd argue HARDER than us because they do more back-breaking physical work, longer hours, with less benefits...but so many of them still have time to enjoy their families, their communities, their lives...and still have the time to learn enough about MY FUCKING COUNTRY that they could shame me into absolute silence with a history lesson about the role of women in ALBERTA...wow. That was embarrassing. I guess in many countries, politics is entertainment, you talk about it with friends and families. In North America, it seems a sure way to start a fight.

Boy, have you got THAT right!!
Here in North America, I'm amazed it hasn't come to Civil War yet! I mean...disagree with someone politically, and there comes such vitriolic hatred, and a barely concealed desire to do physical harm to the one who disagrees with you...

And I know, I'm as guilty as the next North American with regards to this...there have been posters here that have so angered me that I'm not sure I WOULDN'T have thrown a few punches, if they were standing in my face saying to me what they were typing on their computers! Believe me, I know I have WANTED to pummel a few posters here in my time. And I'm willing to own up to that. Not that I ever WOULD...but I can tell you I have WANTED to.

It seems like pretty much all Americans are hyper-sensitive, these days, to any opinion that does not exactly match their own. We have become extremely intolerant and uncivilized in our political discourse.

For my part, I am sometimes ashamed of my basic desire to choke the living shit out of some stupid asshole that is all but begging for it. I doubt those on the other side are even ashamed of their parallel desire to choke the living shit out of ME for my opinions. And I know that my opinions anger them every bit as much as theirs anger me.

The educated people in the USA do too. It's part of being educated.

Fair comment. Just educated here probably means sub literate there.

I employ a literary device called "hyperbole" and people get up in arms. Astounding. Read much?


Yes I read a lot. And the purpose of hyperbole is to rouse the emotions of the reader, to draw them into an emotiopnal reaction. It is a useful literary device, but not at all appropriate for discussion of what are essentialy emotional subjects to start with. So please stop baiting.

What bothers me more than anything is:

A) Those who moved here to America but seem to find nothing good about it.

B) Those Americans who cant just crititize, but spew hatred of either our government or any other elected government. I might not like who wins, but I will give respect for the office and for the fact he/she was elected. Now this is another gray area for some between bashing and crititizing. Example...saying that Clinton was wrong for having sex with the interm is crititizing...saying that he is a stupid idiot who should be thrown out of office for it..is bashing. I for one didnt like him as a person, but will say I didnt think he should be thrown out of office for it. Hell, I might even go and say he was a good president....but that doesnt mean I liked him

C) Those who live elsewhere that feel ALL Americans think alike and/or must be killed

D) Those who refuse to even try and learn English AND get upset at others for not understanding them. A few years ago I met a guy from abroad who ran a pizza shop. While he didnt know english completely, I was extremely impressed that he not only tried, but would turn to his wife and ask her how to say something. Then turn to me and tell me it in English. For this I have a great deal of respect for him. The entire experience was very uplifting to me.


Now go Eat more Hodags

I find that generalizations are annoying, not because they are innaccurate (Though they usually are) but because I rarely, if ever, see them applied to anyone other than Americans, except by a few Americans who do so in retaliation.

For example, it's pretty common to hear people say that Americans tend not to care about the rest of the world - whether this is true or not is up in the air. The point is though, whilst plenty of people in Britain know more about the rest of the world, I sincerely doubt many of them care more about it. I know much more about the world than most of my American friends, but I also know much more than most of my British friends and the people I went to school with. Your average Joe in the street isn't going to care too much about anywhere else, no matter who and where they are. People equate knowledge and caring too greatly.

By the same tokens, accusations of America being 'stupid and fat' show not only shallowness and a lack of knowledge about the US, but generally some level of hypocrisy, especially if one is British, as we have one of the highest rates of rising obesity in the world, and anyone who views our cities on a Thursday or Frida night can see that we're hardly the paragon of intellectualism and culture ourselves. (Speaking from Britain, here.)

So I suppose it comes down to generalizations not being broad and sweeping enough. xD Although of course it would be best if you didn't make them at all.

Another peeve is when people talk about how terrible evil, imperialist America is without regards to the fact that every single nation on Earth looks out for itself first and others second. Sure, there are some things they could do better, but nobody's exactly an angel.

I find I can handle most criticism of America if it has to do with the government. Anyone been to the We're So Sorry website?
I think for me specifically I feel like I'm being bashed when someone makes a general, blanket statement about all Americans being one particular way when we're really not.
Do all Americans come from the same place? Of course not, so you can't attribute one characteristic to us either. A lot of Americans are immigrants. For example, my mother was born in Quito, Ecuador. My father was born in New York, but his parents are from Italy. We can't be defined by our president which nearly half of us did not vote for.

Yeah, but you can drive through a tunnel to France, and from there drive to just about any European nation. Hell, you can drive through three or four nations faster than I can drive to Arizona.

How true!!
I can drive 3,000 miles from where I live, and still be in the same country! I don't think there is ANYWHERE in Europe where one could do that!

We are somewhat isolated, and insulated from the rest of the world, by the two oceans, etc...

BUT...could you name for me the President of Mexico? the Prime Minister of Canada? We oughta be able to.

Now, I'll admit I do not know who the current Prime Minister of Canada is, and I'm ashmaed to admit that. The last one I knew by name was Trudeau, and he's been gone for quite some time.

On the other hand, I can tell you that the current President of Mexico is Vicente Fox.

The main reason I know this is, until recently, I lived in Texas, just over 200 miles from the Mexican border, and so was not very insulated from Mexico. what happened in Mexico affected us a great deal.

Now, I live in Pennsylvania...and much closer to Canada. But I've only been here a couple of months. I do not know yet, who is the PM of Canada (will a Canadian or other informed person please let me know??) But I DO know who all my new state elected officials are, and where they stand on the issues.

Hell, a lot of Americans could not even name their own two Senators and Representative to Congress.

I can, and I've only been where I am now for two months.

Hell, only 2 percent of Americans can even enumerate all five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution. I'm one of the 2 percent. I was given that question, and I got them all. But most people I asked, later on, only got two or three.

I'm putting the answer below, in white type...highlight to see the answers, and see how many YOU got right...

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of Press
3. Freedom of Religion
4. Right to Peaceful Assembly
5. Right to Petition Government for Redress of Grievances.

Those are the five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment. How well did you do...and be honest!

I employ a literary device called "hyperbole" and people get up in arms. Astounding. Read much?Quit trying to wiggle out of things. You pushed the word even when CL pointed out it wasn't necessarily true to others, and you refused to change your stance in order to make it clear that is how YOU saw it...not how it necessarily was in fact. And now you say, 'hyperbole' to make it all better? Just say, "okay okay, that is how I saw the reaction" and let it be.

Yes I read a lot. And the purpose of hyperbole is to rouse the emotions of the reader, to draw them into an emotiopnal reaction. It is a useful literary device, but not at all appropriate for discussion of what are essentialy emotional subjects to start with. So please stop baiting.
Thanks Alien. This is the kind of thing I like outside opinions on. I'm being accused of something (targeting his opinion out of desire to censor perhaps), while he ignores the points we've made as though they aren't at all valid. And it seems very much to me to be a case of baiting.

So Keru...*hand up* Later man.

I find I can handle most criticism of America if it has to do with the government. Anyone been to the We're So Sorry website?

Link, please?

Those are the five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment. How well did you do...and be honest!

I got 1 through 4 right, I had no idea what number 5 was though. Still 4/5 is pretty good for a foreigner, right? xD

What bothers me more than anything is:

A) Those who moved here to America but seem to find nothing good about it.

B) Those Americans who cant just crititize, but spew hatred of either our government or any other elected government. I might not like who wins, but I will give respect for the office and for the fact he/she was elected. Now this is another gray area for some between bashing and crititizing. Example...saying that Clinton was wrong for having sex with the interm is crititizing...saying that he is a stupid idiot who should be thrown out of office for it..is bashing. I for one didnt like him as a person, but will say I didnt think he should be thrown out of office for it. Hell, I might even go and say he was a good president....but that doesnt mean I liked him

C) Those who live elsewhere that feel ALL Americans think alike and/or must be killed

D) Those who refuse to even try and learn English AND get upset at others for not understanding them. A few years ago I met a guy from abroad who ran a pizza shop. While he didnt know english completely, I was extremely impressed that he not only tried, but would turn to his wife and ask her how to say something. Then turn to me and tell me it in English. For this I have a great deal of respect for him. The entire experience was very uplifting to me.




A) I agree. If they hate it so much why did they move here. I know alot of people like this (Not stereotyping but they are Syrian and Jordanian) and they just want to make as much money as they can and yet they SAY themselves how much they hate this country.


B) I agree. But I also believe that people should get off the anti Bush trip. You only have a few years left of hi Dont go spewing your crap making his job harder.

C) I dont think they really think that. But there is alot of anti American sentiment. And recent polls show that the only country we are still higher popularity then China is in Poland and India (MY ONLY reason for not liking this war in Iraq). I am not pacifist but I know that having a good outlook in nations is good for the economy thus stregthening the nation.


D) I cant stand the people here (I am in California) who WONT take the time to learn english. You live in are country learn our language people! and if you dont like this country pack your bags and get YOUR ASS OUTA HERE.

Quit trying to wiggle out of things. You pushed the word even when CL pointed out it wasn't necessarily true to others, and you refused to change your stance in order to make it clear that is how YOU saw it...not how it necessarily was in fact. And now you say, 'hyperbole' to make it all better? Just say, "okay okay, that is how I saw the reaction" and let it be.

You've just missed the point entirely. Ah well ...

We are known as a semi Isolasionist country. The first act we truly had on the world was the Spanish American war in 1896. And when we were truly thrust into the world eyes was ww1 and 2. since then we try to take center stage but this country IS radically different from Europe IE London gets bombed everyone goes "oooh lets get outa Iraq". America gets bombed It strengthens our resolve and more people want to go over and destroy these terrorists.

@Keruvalia

Please speak for yourself you are pissing me off with your huge generalizations. I dont have a problem with people in otehr countrys bashing. but I DO have a problem with people like Keruvalia who live in this country and potray a wrong image to everyone out of the country. And they even spread there crap within the crap and i cannot stand it.

I got 1 through 4 right, I had no idea what number 5 was though. Still 4/5 is pretty good for a foreigner, right? xD

DAMN good for a foreigner. You did better than 90 percent of Americans given this same question, I'll have you know!

The breakdown, as best I remember was this...

Only 2 percent of americans got all five.

10 percent of Americans were able to get 4.

40 percent of Americans were able to get 3.

70 percent of Americans were able to get 2

95 percent of Americans were able to get at least 1.

5 percent of Americans couldn't get ANY.

We are known as a semi Isolasionist country. The first act we truly had on the world was the Spanish American war in 1896. And when we were truly thrust into the world eyes was ww1 and 2. since then we try to take center stage but this country IS radically different from Europe IE London gets bombed everyone goes "oooh lets get outa Iraq". America gets bombed It strengthens our resolve and more people want to go over and destroy these terrorists.

Should I now jump up and down and complain abour 'Brit bashing" as everyone goes "oooh lets get outa Iraq" is blatently untrue.

I could I suppose, but like most others I will just shake my head and let it pass. I mean it is just an opinion of one person on the internet.

@Keruvalia

Please speak for yourself you are pissing me off with your huge generalizations. I dont have a problem with people in otehr countrys bashing. but I DO have a problem with people like Keruvalia who live in this country and potray a wrong image to everyone out of the country. And they even spread there crap within the crap and i cannot stand it.

Oh yeah ... nothin' sucks like having an opinion. But, hey, whatever gets ya through the night.

You can have your opinion but dont portray it as fact and make the REST of us look bad.

Have to agree with Benzeniah,
Folks who come here and refuse to even TRY to learn English piss me the hell off, too!

Even worse are folks who only speak English when it is convenient for them to. People who know English and have out-loud conversations in Spanish are fucking RUDE! It's even ruder than whispering.

Of course, I don't let on that I am somewhat fluent in Spanish, and that I, therefore, can understand a lot of what they are saying...enough to get the context, anyway. I just sit there looking stupid while I eavesdrop. Yeah, I know, that is rude, too...but damn it, I don't like it when people start talking about other people out loud, in a foreign language, so that no one else can understand.

Speak Spanish in your homes, your churches, wherever else...but damn it, when you are at work, fucking speak ENGLISH!!!

I dont really have a problem with Brits. I shoulda used Spain as the example. Sorry. I was trying to find a European nation but now that i think of it Spains bombings were a better example.

You can have your opinion but dont portray it as fact and make the REST of us look bad.

So ... which part of my opinion didn't you like.

The part where I said Americans tend to have a sense of humor about themselves? Maybe you didn't like the way I mention that we're not a very global people.

I doubt highly you even read my post. You probably didn't even notice points 1 and 2 ... something you will continue to prove. Welcome to NS General. Enjoy your stay.

Heaven forbid we look bad sometimes. After all, America is infallible and holy and blameless, right? Right.

DAMN good for a foreigner. You did better than 90 percent of Americans given this same question, I'll have you know!

The breakdown, as best I remember was this...

Only 2 percent of americans got all five.

10 percent of Americans were able to get 4.

40 percent of Americans were able to get 3.

70 percent of Americans were able to get 2

95 percent of Americans were able to get at least 1.

5 percent of Americans couldn't get ANY.

See, that is a legitimate thing to take issue with. I know I've always been pretty saddened that we learn crap all about British history, and I thought it was cool that the US seems to actually make the effort. But I know that almost NONE of my American friends actually CARE about it, and I don't know how to get them to care. That saddens me quite a bit... the assumption that they don't need to know their rights. I mean, it's good because it obviously shows infringements on said rights are rare, but... bleh. You can tell what I'm getting it.

The part i didnt like was how you said we wimpred in a corner for a few days. That is not true. and It portrays this nation wrong.

Incidently, the whole premise of the thread is asking for opinions. The title itself uses the word "perceptions" and asks for yours (general you).

With that in mind, why would I find it necessary to use the qualifier "IMHO" or "This is my opinion"? Duh.

Sorry for disappearing for a while, had to get the baby down for her first nap! The link is: http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ there is a sister site called Apologis Accepted; it's http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/index.html

Don't go there if you voted for Bush.

Anytime I read a lot of America-bashing, I go to these sites because I know there's people out there that know we aren't the same.

And having the right to free speech AND because I voted means I can carp about Dubya for as long as I want. I hope you appreciate it that I didn't do so here.

The part i didnt like was how you said we wimpred in a corner for a few days. That is not true. and It portrays this nation wrong.

But it is true. This nation was stunned. We came out of it quickly, but we were floored. Unfortunately, many came out of it by embracing a nationalism not seen since WWII and are still extremely divided.

We shut ourselves down for a few days. That is a fact. Obviously a nation cannot literally wimper in a corner and eat ice cream. Metaphor, hyperbole.

Oh forget it ... pearls before swine.

I just feel I should point out that there is a distinction between critical thinking and whining, and a distinction between silence and patritotism. I feel it is our duty as Americans to be critical of our government and way of life, that we should always be striving to make things better, and at this moment all conscientious Americans should be extremely vocal in their opposition of this government which is sapping our resources in an indefinite war that has now killed more people than Saddam Hussein ever did.
If the next administration is more intelligent and less greedy in their foreign policy, I will be equally critical of them, because we can always be better. I think Amy Goodman, of Democracy Now! does a good job of being impartial and examining the issues. She was just as critical towards all of the mistakes Clinton and his administration made as she currently is towards the mistakes Bush and his are now making.
I suppose along this logic that it was whining and America Bashing that helped bring an end to the disastrous Viet Nam war as well. So if that's what you want to call it, long live whining and long live America Bashing.

Premise of thread: How do YOU personally define "American bashing"? (perceptions, opinions)



In my travels about the United States, I've only noticed a few constants:

1] We're pretty opinionated, even if we don't know the full facts.
2] We like to hear ourselves talk.
3] We're a pretty emotional lot. Think, for a comparative example, of the difference in reaction to a major city getting bombed between us and the Brits. We shriveled up into a corner, cried, ate a bucket of ice cream, and wimpered for a couple of days, licking our wounds while the Brits shrugged and said, "Well, now, wasn't that something."
4] Midwesterners don't seen to talk much and aren't very affectionate. Texans are gregarious and loud, forever the Libertarians at heart with an opinion on *everything*. Northeasterners seem a pretty proud bunch, often boastful. West Coasters all seem crazy.
5] Americans really, really, really love to eat.

Yes, these are your opinions, but they have nothing at all to do with the premise of the thread. Go start a thread about people's opinions of the US. This is about people's opinions of what 'bashing the US' is. Clear?

I guess directly after 9/11, the U.S. went into a state of withdrawal but came out of it united and with a killer attitude.

Keruvalia's metaphor made it seem the U.S. hid under a table like a 10-year old girl during a thunder storm but I think that's not exactly what the message was. The U.S. took a hit and stayed on the ground for a little while but got up more determined than ever.

^ Partially agrees.


EDIT: We grounded the planes and everyhting but it wasnt a licking wounds and hiding under the table. That was what I was agaisnt.

Yes, these are your opinions, but they have nothing at all to do with the premise of the thread. Go start a thread about people's opinions of the US. This is about people's opinions of what 'bashing the US' is. Clear?

And I gave my opinion. You have chosen to ignore it. If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.

Keruvalia's metaphor made it seem the U.S. hid under a table like a 10-year old girl during a thunder storm but I think that's not exactly what the message was. The U.S. took a hit and stayed on the ground for a little while but got up more determined than ever.

Which is exactly what I said, but some folks don't seem to get that. It's like I said earlier in the thread ... it amuses me that people are latching on to one sentence instead of the greater whole.

Not seeing the forest for the trees always makes me chuckle.

I stated that if it was outside the country I dont really care what bashing is going on. But I stated I cannot stand people IN the US bashing the US OR portraying it the wrong way to foreign countrys.

In fairness... America killed more people in the "War on Terror" than the terrorists did. Maybe that's where that comes from.

We target terrorists because they are the ilk of those who hit us on 9/11

We target insurgents because they are standing in the way of a new, free Iraq

We do not target civilians. Intent to kill civilians is a huge difference between US forces and terrorists and insurgents. Those rats aim at civilians.

Intent is the difference between manslaughter (an accident) and first-degree murder.

Which is exactly what I said, but some folks don't seem to get that. It's like I said earlier in the thread ... it amuses me that people are latching on to one sentence instead of the greater whole.

Not seeing the forest for the trees always makes me chuckle.
Yup.

His point was that America is an emotional nation - which is not necessarily a bad thing. He didn't say America is a weak nation.

Yup.

His point was that America is an emotional nation - which is not necessarily a bad thing. He didn't say America is a weak nation.

Aha! I knew someone would get it. Thanks, Roshni. Though I'm starting to second guess my opinion that Americans have a sense of humor about themselves.

But it is true. This nation was stunned. We came out of it quickly, but we were floored. Unfortunately, many came out of it by embracing a nationalism not seen since WWII and are still extremely divided.

We shut ourselves down for a few days. That is a fact. Obviously a nation cannot literally wimper in a corner and eat ice cream. Metaphor, hyperbole.

Oh forget it ... pearls before swine.

We were stunned, but in reality any nation would be if they had been hit with something like 9/11. The US had never seen a surprise attack that killed so many people and caused so much damage since Pearl Harbor 60 years before; I would say that there had never been a civilian attack of that magnitude, even including Oklaholma City. Combine this with the recession, the effects of 10 years of peace (relatively speaking, the fear of WWIII was gone, and the USSR was defeated), and even cultural decadence fostered by this period of peace and proseprity, it was a natural reaction. This was topped off by the psychological effect of having the very center of American military power being hit, and it was a severe blow.

However, when the immediate chaos was over, we got back up and took the fight to the terrorists almost immediately. Given the weakness of our security at the time, it was an excellent show of American resolve and determination. We are divided, but still all want the best for America, despite our differences.

How true!!
I can drive 3,000 miles from where I live, and still be in the same country! I don't think there is ANYWHERE in Europe where one could do that!

We are somewhat isolated, and insulated from the rest of the world, by the two oceans, etc...

BUT...could you name for me the President of Mexico? the Prime Minister of Canada? We oughta be able to.

Now, I'll admit I do not know who the current Prime Minister of Canada is, and I'm ashmaed to admit that. The last one I knew by name was Trudeau, and he's been gone for quite some time.

On the other hand, I can tell you that the current President of Mexico is Vicente Fox.

The main reason I know this is, until recently, I lived in Texas, just over 200 miles from the Mexican border, and so was not very insulated from Mexico. what happened in Mexico affected us a great deal.

Now, I live in Pennsylvania...and much closer to Canada. But I've only been here a couple of months. I do not know yet, who is the PM of Canada (will a Canadian or other informed person please let me know??) But I DO know who all my new state elected officials are, and where they stand on the issues.

Hell, a lot of Americans could not even name their own two Senators and Representative to Congress.

I can, and I've only been where I am now for two months.

Hell, only 2 percent of Americans can even enumerate all five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution. I'm one of the 2 percent. I was given that question, and I got them all. But most people I asked, later on, only got two or three.

I'm putting the answer below, in white type...highlight to see the answers, and see how many YOU got right...

1. Freedom of Speech
2. Freedom of Press
3. Freedom of Religion
4. Right to Peaceful Assembly
5. Right to Petition Government for Redress of Grievances.

Those are the five rights guaranteed by the First Amendment. How well did you do...and be honest!

Let's see:
PM of Canada - Paul Martin
President of Mexico - Vincente Fox
My US Senators - Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer (Yay!)
My US Representative - Randy (Duke) Cunningham (Boo!)


Um. I count six rights guaranteed by the First Amendment:

1. No establishment of religion
2. Free exercise of religion
3. Freedom of speech
4. Freedom of press
5. Right to peacable assembly
6. Right to petition the Government for redress of grievances

(And, no, I didn't Google or look.)

Americans in general tend to have a pretty good sense of humor about themselves and their place in the world, but it's nearly impossible to get a lock on us. We're a really diverse country with people from all manner of backgrounds and cultures. I tend not to think of us as a melting pot, but rather a chunky soup.

In my travels about the United States, I've only noticed a few constants:

1] We're pretty opinionated, even if we don't know the full facts.
2] We like to hear ourselves talk.
3] We're a pretty emotional lot. Think, for a comparative example, of the difference in reaction to a major city getting bombed between us and the Brits. We shriveled up into a corner, cried, ate a bucket of ice cream, and wimpered for a couple of days, licking our wounds while the Brits shrugged and said, "Well, now, wasn't that something."
4] Midwesterners don't seen to talk much and aren't very affectionate. Texans are gregarious and loud, forever the Libertarians at heart with an opinion on *everything*. Northeasterners seem a pretty proud bunch, often boastful. West Coasters all seem crazy.
5] Americans really, really, really love to eat.

Bashing? I don't honestly think it's possible. Oh, sure, you can scream "Death to America!!" and burn a flag and 95% of us will see you on TV and say, "Well, now, wasn't that something." You can bring up our fat laziness and we'll often shrug, eat some fried chicken, and plop down on the couch to watch the latest American Idol or Original HBO Movie(tm), indifferent to our laziness and secure in our knowledge that the sun will still rise in the morning.

Most of us just simply don't care about the stereotypes. We know they're true, but our stereotypes are one of our sources of pride. So, when someone gets all up in arms about an American standard, we often say, "Damn right, pal."

The only constant I do not like about the experience of being American is that at least half of us are unconcerned with the rest of the world. In many cases, we don't even realise there are other States, much less countries. We're not a very global people. I find that a little sad. I've often thought about it and have decided that it's because the reason most of us are here is because our ancestors ran away from, or were kicked out of, one of those "other countries" and our collective psyches have decided it's best not to think about it.

So bash away. Sometimes you'll hit one of us close to home and we'll roll our eyes and make an effort to defend ourselves, but mostly you'll find we chuckle and agree with you.

issues:

1 and 2 are more or less accurate, with exceptions (of course)

3)Some of us got angry instead of scared. I wanted to kill terrorists, rip them to shreds, for what they did to us. I've never been so angry in my life as I was on 9/11/01.

4)Midwesterners are affectionate, but sometimes it's a terse affection... the Midwest is a hard-working (for the most part) region, and its capital is Chicago, the City of Broad Shoulders (aka the Windy City).

#5 is right on, of course. I offer myself as a case in point. lol

We target terrorists because they are the ilk of those who hit us on 9/11

We target insurgents because they are standing in the way of a new, free Iraq

We do not target civilians. Intent to kill civilians is a huge difference between US forces and terrorists and insurgents. Those rats aim at civilians.

Intent is the difference between manslaughter (an accident) and first-degree murder.

thank you. even though i think i already answered this question :P

*snip* pearls before swine.

Don't call Americans "pigs," you @#$@^%@!!!!!


;) :D :p

And I gave my opinion. You have chosen to ignore it. If you don't want the answer, don't ask the question.


Ah. So THIS is your idea of what bashing the US is?

In my travels about the United States, I've only noticed a few constants:

1] We're pretty opinionated, even if we don't know the full facts.
2] We like to hear ourselves talk.
3] We're a pretty emotional lot. Think, for a comparative example, of the difference in reaction to a major city getting bombed between us and the Brits. We shriveled up into a corner, cried, ate a bucket of ice cream, and wimpered for a couple of days, licking our wounds while the Brits shrugged and said, "Well, now, wasn't that something."
4] Midwesterners don't seen to talk much and aren't very affectionate. Texans are gregarious and loud, forever the Libertarians at heart with an opinion on *everything*. Northeasterners seem a pretty proud bunch, often boastful. West Coasters all seem crazy.
5] Americans really, really, really love to eat.
So people who talk about these stereotypes and push them to the exclusion of all objections to the contrary are bashing the US?

No Keru, I asked for an opinion about a specific subject, not a general opinion about Americans, with the express intent to avoid a thread that actually turned INTO bashing. You give your opinion on what is bashing later on in this post. The above is an opinion of how you see Americans. It has offended some people. Other people have made comments that others considered rude. They at least retracted them, while you seem intent on proving that you are doing what was asked. As the OP, I know what I asked. Everyone else seems to get it too. I won't ask you again to leave off this subject.

Don't call Americans "pigs," you @#$@^%@!!!!!


;) :D :p

*snicker* I'm proud to be a pig. :p

Aha! I knew someone would get it. Thanks, Roshni. Though I'm starting to second guess my opinion that Americans have a sense of humor about themselves.
The people were obsessed with the example and forgot about the point at the beginning of the sentence.

thank you. even though i think i already answered this question :P

i was just being the wing man

hehe

I agree. We were stunned but the words keruvia (is that right?) used made us sound weak.

I won't ask you again to leave off this subject.

Good.

We target terrorists because they are the ilk of those who hit us on 9/11

We target insurgents because they are standing in the way of a new, free Iraq

We do not target civilians. Intent to kill civilians is a huge difference between US forces and terrorists and insurgents. Those rats aim at civilians.

Intent is the difference between manslaughter (an accident) and first-degree murder.

See, the thing is, you can't really blame Americans for having opinions like these. The media is so tightly controlled by corporate interests in USA, most of whom are indirecdtly profiting from the war, that you have to go WAY out of your way to get any idea of the situation. For me, that meant going to Afghanistan to see the situation with my own eyes as a tourist. And while I was undecided about whether or not I supported the war before that trip, now I am definitely against. If for one day, just one day, Americans were allowed to see the reality of war and the war that the US is waging for what it really is, I believe there would literally be a revolution. To tie this back into the topic, I just have to say to all the allegations of American bashing having to do with ignorance and not caring about the world, I think the corporate run media, NBC, CNN, FOWNEWS, ABC, CBS, and NPR to a slightly lesser extent, are to blame, and not the American public.

Yup.

His point was that America is an emotional nation - which is not necessarily a bad thing. He didn't say America is a weak nation.
THE WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ABOUT AMERICAN AND AMERICANS THREAD. (www.thisthreaaddoesn'texistyet)

Oops...that link doesn't work? Maybe someone should create that thread and quit hijacking this one?

The people were obsessed with the example and forgot about the point at the beginning of the sentence.

Not seeing the forest for the trees is a global passtime. It's like screaming for the interpretation and modification of the 1st Amendment, but touch the 2nd Amendment and there'll be a second revolution.

No wait ... it's more like selective Bible reading. Another hilarious passtime.

Bezeniah, it is our job as Americans to look at our system of government with a critical eye and make our voices heard when we don't like something. We can do it by voting, by running for office, by working on political campaigns or donating money when we can't donate time.
Should Americans bash America? That depends on your definition. I think if it is to criticize the government then yes. What they do affects people's opinions of all of us. And believe me, at this point in time NOTHING I say about America is going to make us look worse than we do already, or portray us in the wrong way.
I picked up this link on another thread:
http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html

I'm growing increasingly irate at how my goverment makes decisions and I will not be quiet about it. My negative opinion could be construed as bashing, but it is my right. They went to war in our name, and I personally feel as though the blood of every innocent Iraqi that died in this war is on my hands. It's not a good way to feel.

I have to sign off now, and I'm sorry for leaving in the middle of the debate. If you would like to chat further, send me a telegram.

Oops...that link doesn't work? Maybe someone should create that thread and quit hijacking this one?

You said you weren't going to ask again. Incidently, by continuing this line of discussion, you are hijacking your own thread. You can either address my opinion, or continue to misread it.

That choice is entirely yours. Roshni got it. Fragland got it. Cat-Tribe got it. Why can't you get it?

THE WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ABOUT AMERICAN AND AMERICANS THREAD. (www.thisthreaaddoesn'texistyet)

Oops...that link doesn't work? Maybe someone should create that thread and quit hijacking this one?

Ahhh, but ticking you off is so much fun! :(

You're soooo hot when you are angry!!! :eek: :p

THE WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ABOUT AMERICAN AND AMERICANS THREAD. (www.thisthreaaddoesn'texistyet)

Oops...that link doesn't work? Maybe someone should create that thread and quit hijacking this one?
Perhaps he wasn't exactly trying to give his opinion about America and Americans but trying to give all the reasons why there's so much America bashing going on.

"So bash away. Sometimes you'll hit one of us close to home and we'll roll our eyes and make an effort to defend ourselves, but mostly you'll find we chuckle and agree with you."

I meant collectively, not individually.

We did shrivel into a corner. All of America did, regardless of what individuals may have done and the bravery they showed, America did die a little inside. We were put on hold for a few days. There is no denying it.

Though I do find it amusing that the two comments on my post focused on that one part. Maybe I should have included something about self-denial. ;)

Maybe you shriveled into a corner, but alot of us said "O.K. lets roll" I'm curious how you can say we ALL shriveled up. Were you in my living room that day, or the weeks following? You can't say some didn't but we ALL did. Thats an oxymoron.

Maybe you shriveled into a corner, but alot of us said "O.K. lets roll" I'm curious how you can say we ALL shriveled up. Were you in my living room that day, or the weeks following? You can't say some didn't but we ALL did. Thats an oxymoron.

Nation as a whole, not individuals. It would be impossible for me to have seen every single American and their reaction to 9/11, would it not? I did watch, however, America. Not Americans, America. There is a difference.

My perception of America chronic bashers is that they lack either maturity, education, or both. Same for [insert nation name] bashers.

There is a clear difference between bashing and deserved criticism for actions. Most people know the difference.

It would be quite the sight to not have 'bashing' of any nation/race/sex/religion/etc. but sadly we as humans cannot grasp the fact that it's okay that someone might acutally believe something other than our own personal beliefs.

We all have opinions, the problem is we all can form sentences and speak them too.

Would it be strange to mandate that everyone gets surgically altered to have a permanent smile. That would be interesting... and entirely off topic.

It is my understanding that the rest of the world hates America simply because of Bush. It's fine and dandy to hate Bush and all that he has done (and hasn't done...). My only problem with this is that foreigners judge us all solely by what Bush has done. You hate bush, and Americans voted for Bush... So Americans are all like Bush and sing his praise every night after mass, right? Wrong! You forget that only half of us even voted for Bush, most of them being the rich, white, religious people. I am strongly opposed to what Bush has done, and pity America for being tied to this Wacko for 8 years. But still you hate me! I gladly accept any bashing of Bush and all of the crap he's done, but don't for one minute think that he represents all Americans, because he doesn't!

-snip-

We all have opinions, the problem is we all can form sentences and speak them too.

that's awesome! :D

Would it be strange to mandate that everyone gets surgically altered to have a permanent smile. That would be interesting... and entirely off topic.
...and that's a scary thought! A bunch of creeps walking around kind of smiling but not really. Besides, how would we signal others that we are in a good mood?

Ahhh, but ticking you off is so much fun! :(

You're soooo hot when you are angry!!! :eek: :p

yeah, MEOW! HISS!

hehe

...and that's a scary thought! A bunch of creeps walking around kind of smiling but not really. Besides, how would we signal others that we are in a good mood?

Easy! A Thumbs Up!

It is my understanding that the rest of the world hates America simply because of Bush. It's fine and dandy to hate Bush and all that he has done (and hasn't done...). My only problem with this is that foreigners judge us all solely by what Bush has done. You hate bush, and Americans voted for Bush... So Americans are all like Bush and sing his praise every night after mass, right? Wrong! You forget that only half of us even voted for Bush, most of them being the rich, white, religious people. I am strongly opposed to what Bush has done, and pity America for being tied to this Wacko for 8 years. But still you hate me! I gladly accept any bashing of Bush and all of the crap he's done, but don't for one minute think that he represents all Americans, because he doesn't!

If you think that all the America-bashing didn't exist prior to 2000, and will miraculously disappear in 2009, you've got another thing coming to you, Billy Bob.

Have to agree with Benzeniah,
Folks who come here and refuse to even TRY to learn English piss me the hell off, too!

Even worse are folks who only speak English when it is convenient for them to. People who know English and have out-loud conversations in Spanish are fucking RUDE! It's even ruder than whispering.

Of course, I don't let on that I am somewhat fluent in Spanish, and that I, therefore, can understand a lot of what they are saying...enough to get the context, anyway. I just sit there looking stupid while I eavesdrop. Yeah, I know, that is rude, too...but damn it, I don't like it when people start talking about other people out loud, in a foreign language, so that no one else can understand.

Speak Spanish in your homes, your churches, wherever else...but damn it, when you are at work, fucking speak ENGLISH!!!

People don't bother to learn native languages? O_o Okay, I can understand if they're there for a week, but longer with intent to stay... It's fun to learn language! When I stay in Germany and Austria I try to perfect my Deutch, so should other folk!

yeah, MEOW! HISS!

hehe


Did you just say you found me sexy? :eek:

I didn't know you swung that way Frangland? Not that there is anything wrong with that. :p ;) :D

I live in America, and I breathe the same air everyone else does. That's neat.

In fact, I've swam in the same oceans as many people in the world. Sometimes the oceans were warm, sometimes they were not.

Other times I just sat on the beach and enjoyed the sun... the same sun everyone else enjoys (or doesn't enjoy).

I look up at the same stars as everyone else around the world, just at different times.

We're all standing on this spinning hunk of rock we call Earth.

We're all a part of the Human race, no matter what nationality/religion/sex/etc.

We're all a part of our own destruction.

American bashing to me is the countries that will gladly accept our aid money and etc and then turn around and insult our people and talk about how our products/companies ruin the world.

On here, the constant "fat, ignorant, lazy pigs" and etc gets a bit old.

I saw an MTV special a couple years back after September 11, 2001. It was about two brothers of an affluent family in Saudi Arabia and it followed them in their lives and asked about the opinions of the US and etc. Their house was filled with American products, they listened to American-made music and watched American movies and etc yet they insisted we deserved what happened on September 11. That's what truly opened my eyes to how uninformed the "informed" can be.

Americans do much to help other countries with aid and charity and etc and yet if there is that one time we don't do something or do enough, many people are criticzing us for not doing it.

I do agree many Americans don't pay enough attention to the rest of the world but it has its reasons. Yes we are larger geographically so much of our news is inwardly directed. I live in Arizona, which shares a border with Mexico so we pay great attention to what happens in Mexico and in Central America. I pay attention to Canada because my family comes from there and I've had great experiences every time I've gone. There is a lot going on in the United States and of course as in every country, home comes first.

Thanks.

...http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html...

due to this paragraph in the list on that website, i would take all that info w/ a grain of salt:

27. Killing thousands of innocent poor Afghans: In the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, the USA, looking for a small group of bandits, has shot up the whole country, causing a massive increase in starvation and other suffering. When several hundred (about 350) Taleban surrendered in one city, the USA used aerial bombing to kill every one of them, even though they were unarmed and had surrendered. This is a very serious war crime under the Geneva convention. Combatants are required to give quarter, but the USA has operated an explicit policy of taking no prisoners. They stated that they intended all al Qaida and Taliban to be killed. The USA should be brought before war crimes tribunals for these crimes, but the USA will refuse to even think about this possibility. In fact, the US government has passed a law to impose sanctions on any country which cooperates with the International Criminal Court, and they have passed a law to indemnify all US war criminals from any legal action. Thus the USA has declared that it is free to commit war crimes with impunity. (2002-12-19: It has emerged that the USA was responsible for the murder of about 8000 Taliban who had surrendered. This is why the USA is so afraid of the International Criminal Court. They are as bad as the Serbs were in the 1990s.)
(2003-3-24: The US government says that the Iraqis must abide by the Geneva convention in the treatment of US prisoners. But the USA denied Geneva convention rights to thousands of Afghan prisoners from 2001. After more than a year, these prisoners are still being maltreated in Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. This shows once again that all countries in the world must obey international conventions - all countries except the USA.) After tearing up the Geneva Convention in regard to Afghanistan, the USA complained loudly about extremely minor matters in their illegal war of aggression against Iraq in 2003, for example when photos of prisoners were shown on TV, which is not actually against the Geneva Convention. The USA insists that other countries must very precisely obey international conventions, but the USA never accepts that international law applies to them

and #30

Corrupt, undemocratic US voting system: When other countries have slight irregularities in voting procedures, the USA takes this as a pretext to impose heavy trade sanctions. But often these irregularities are caused mostly by ignorance or misunderstandings. But in the 2000 election in the USA, thousands of African Americans were turned back from the polls in Florida because the officials knew that they would vote for the Democrats. As a result the candidate with the second-most votes was selected to be president. This kind of outright racism and election fixing would be regarded as unacceptable in third world countries. A new election would be required, but in the USA, the national interest required that the irregularities be ignored. The hypocrisy of US government lectures on democracy to other countries is shown by the widespread gerrymanders, first past the post voting, and electoral colleges in the USA. At best, one could call the USA a guided democracy.

If thousands of blacks were turned back, i think it would have made lots of news. Plus, the 2000 election was very controversial (went to the supreme court didn't it?)

#50. Sex overseas by US Americans: US males travelling overseas are very widely resented for seeking and having sex with the local women. This spreads diseases and unwanted children. (These children are called Amerasians in Asia.) But more importantly, it spreads resentment and hatred. This is true in Asia, Europe, Australia, and everywhere else. For example, sex between US soldiers and local women was very much resented in WW2 by British and Australian males. Most resented of all is the fact the local women often prefer US males to the locals because US Americans are richer and might offer them an escape from poverty. Usually the local women are left disappointed and often pregnant.

ROFLMAO @ #50....

Yes! While some of the arguments do seem kind of odd the author does have this to say:

"However, the arguments are presented in an adversarial style.
The people who hate the USA do not study the USA with academic detachment.
There are many counter-arguments to the views expressed here.
But there are many counter-counter-arguments to those counter-arguments too!
Accept the arguments which seem right to you. Discard the rest."

I think there's enough there even if this isn't completely accurate to demonstrate that US foreign policy could use some work. That was my intent on displaying the link.

I'm as american as it gets and I'll say it, Americans in general are a bunch of asses. Many of my fellow americans lack compassion, they are greedy, they don't care for the environement. Most of all they simply don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.

I'm as american as it gets and I'll say it, Americans in general are a bunch of asses. Many of my fellow americans lack compassion, they are greedy, they don't care for the environement. Most of all they simply don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.


i think the point of this thread wasn't to bash americans(which you have clearly done in this post), but to see how much american "bashing" you think is going on.

Let's see:
PM of Canada - Paul Martin
President of Mexico - Vincente Fox
My US Senators - Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer (Yay!)
My US Representative - Randy (Duke) Cunningham (Boo!)


Um. I count six rights guaranteed by the First Amendment:

1. No establishment of religion
2. Free exercise of religion
3. Freedom of speech
4. Freedom of press
5. Right to peacable assembly
6. Right to petition the Government for redress of grievances

(And, no, I didn't Google or look.)


Nope. Your number one is NOT a right. It is part of the Establishment Clause and goes hand in hand with Freedom of Religion...and that is Freedom FROM Religion.

If I'm "bashed" just because I'm an American, I'm damn proud to be bashed! Bash away, all you bashtards.

If I'm "bashed" just because I'm an American, I'm damn proud to be bashed! Bash away, all you bashtards.

again, the point of this thread isn't to bash americans, it's to see the level of perception of american bashing.

There is a population of whiners that live here, but aspire to reach that lofty goal of being a member of the self proclaimed intelligista, where its in fashion to look down on the US and how we do things.

It's likely a large portion of these people still live with mommy and daddy and work part time in retail or fast-food. Its funny that one day, they will grow up, pay their own bills, get some responsibilty and their views will take a 180 degree turn.
I agree, young Republicans are so irritating, aren't they?

Clearly, a number US citizens on this forum feel that they are being unjustly 'bashed'. Some of you are right. Some of you, however, see bashing where none exists. In fact, quite often the topic has nothing to do with the US or with its citizens, and suddenly, accusations fly about "American-bashing". I'm a bit baffled, so I'd like to look into this a bit deeper.

How do YOU personally define "American bashing"?

Is any criticism of the US, it's people or administration? Is it specific criticisms? Is it the way such criticisms are phrased (clearly flaming or otherwise)? What types of comments get you riled up the most and feeling attacked?

I'd like, if at all possible, to discuss the perceptions of US citizens about "American bashing", and the perceptions of those who are accused of doing it. I'm wondering how much of our conflict is built up beyond the reality of the situation, and how much is valid. PLEASE try to be cordial. I don't want personal attacks, from anyone, towards anyone else. Phrase your comments to be respectful, even if they include 'examples' which are not. Thanks.

PS. I'm choosing to talk about American bashing rather than conservative/liberal/atheist/Christian or whatever else bashing, because I think the polarization on NS is often more the US against the world or visa versa. That's just MY perception:).
My perception of unfair American bashing is the stereotyping and equalling Bush's policy to the opinions of America.

It's about as sickening to me as stereotyping all us Muslims to radical terrorists.

I'm also quite sick of people jumping the gun and dismissing American actions as "typical American behaviour" and adding their own little comment. Such as all Americans are trigger-happy.

I mean, seriously. Grow up a little. From here, you guys look like little kids who don't know anything.

Now, some of the bashing IS justified. But much/most of it is just stupid.

My two cents. Eh, make it three cents. I'm worth more! ;)

Nope. Your number one is NOT a right. It is part of the Establishment Clause and goes hand in hand with Freedom of Religion...and that is Freedom FROM Religion.

Well, I guess that depends on what you call a right.

What I stated is the Establishment Clause. The Free Exercise Clause is what I stated as #2.

You lump these both into "freedom of religion," although the First Amendment doesn't use that phrase.

I think both of the First Amendment's religion clauses are of vital importance and constitute separate rights. They do not always go hand-in-hand and sometimes they conflict.

American bashing to me is the countries that will gladly accept our aid money and etc and then turn around and insult our people and talk about how our products/companies ruin the world.

On here, the constant "fat, ignorant, lazy pigs" and etc gets a bit old.

I saw an MTV special a couple years back after September 11, 2001. It was about two brothers of an affluent family in Saudi Arabia and it followed them in their lives and asked about the opinions of the US and etc. Their house was filled with American products, they listened to American-made music and watched American movies and etc yet they insisted we deserved what happened on September 11. That's what truly opened my eyes to how uninformed the "informed" can be.

Americans do much to help other countries with aid and charity and etc and yet if there is that one time we don't do something or do enough, many people are criticzing us for not doing it.

I do agree many Americans don't pay enough attention to the rest of the world but it has its reasons. Yes we are larger geographically so much of our news is inwardly directed. I live in Arizona, which shares a border with Mexico so we pay great attention to what happens in Mexico and in Central America. I pay attention to Canada because my family comes from there and I've had great experiences every time I've gone. There is a lot going on in the United States and of course as in every country, home comes first.

Thanks.

I have to say I think youre argument was very fair. I for one find american "bashing" distasteful and ignorant. How can you stereotype a nation as varied as yours. Although I was never a supporter of the Iraq war, I do not hold it against America. I do hold it against Bush. But Bush is not America. I have never met an overtly unpleasant American, although im sure they must exist, as I will not seek to bash a country that has, in its short but illustrious past, done so much for the world. Perhaps we europeans disagree with you on subjects but I will always feel closer to you than the rest of Europe. We, despite our differences, understand one another. I hope this serves to remind you that you have many friends in the world. And I count myself as one of them.

Nope. Your number one is NOT a right. It is part of the Establishment Clause and goes hand in hand with Freedom of Religion...and that is Freedom FROM Religion.

o, and i'm in the 10% :P i forgot about the redress thing.

Nation as a whole, not individuals. It would be impossible for me to have seen every single American and their reaction to 9/11, would it not? I did watch, however, America. Not Americans, America. There is a difference.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that your opinion on the matter is fact and anyone who disagrees with your assessment is wrong.

Keruvalia: Enough with the trolling. Have a day off.

- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

My view on this matter is that several people go out of their way to find things to critisize in the US. On the other hand a minority of americans find the slightest critisism offensive enough to cry "america bashing". Both sides are annoying as hell, the vitriolic assholes as well as the mindless patriotic whiners. Either get a life or drop dead now.
Critisism should be a way to improvement, not rubbing salt into wounds. It had best be carefull formulated or supressed or you achieve the opposite of what was aimed for. But if i have to read annoying jingoistic bullshit like "gods own country" or "we are the best nation on earth" i have to puke.
Find a middle way and learn some manners and that would be the end of it.

let me paraphrase, but what i believe you said was, "Americans has killed more civilians than terrorists".... if that's not a comparison i don't know what is.

EVERYTHING is about the context, including how we die.
That's a philosophical matter. Objective fact is, Americans have killed more people than terrorists.

I woukld argue that the civilians killed by America have not died in vain, however. Their deaths were part of a mission that has justifiable ends. The mission of al-Qaeda has no justification.

That's a philosophical matter. Objective fact is, Americans have killed more people than terrorists.

I woukld argue that the civilians killed by America have not died in vain, however. Their deaths were part of a mission that has justifiable ends. The mission of al-Qaeda has no justification.
Sure it did. They want to make people afraid. They want us to restrict our freedoms out of fear. They want to create instability. We don't agree with their reason, but surely we can see how they might believe their actions to be 'worth it' if indeed their terror causes these things.

Back onto the subject of US bashing. As with any and all discussions...there will be emotional undertones. How well we manage to control these undertones and behave in a rational manner will determine whether or not we slide into mindless bashing, or real criticism.

I for one don't like to be called a US-basher. I don't think I am. However, if I say something that really offends someone I will (within reason now...if someone gets offended that I've stated the Earth is round, well...) apologise. If I DO slide into bashing, pointing it out in a rational manner will get me to smarten up. Bashing back gets people's hackles up. IF ANY AMERICANS FEEL BASHED BY ME, please TG me and let me know. I've never intented to do it, I don't think I do...but we all get a little off our nut sometimes.

Well, I guess that depends on what you call a right.

What I stated is the Establishment Clause. The Free Exercise Clause is what I stated as #2.

You lump these both into "freedom of religion," although the First Amendment doesn't use that phrase.

I think both of the First Amendment's religion clauses are of vital importance and constitute separate rights. They do not always go hand-in-hand and sometimes they conflict.
Well, that perception may even be valid. I merely asked the question as it was presented to me...and gave the answer that was originally attached to the question, and in that original question there were five rights enumerated. I didn't inject my own opinion into it.

Nevertheless, my point in presenting this was to point out that not only Americans, generally, ignorant of the rest of the world...but ignorant of their own country and rights, as well.

And, if you do not know what your rights are, you may as well not even have any rights!

I find it incredibly sad the level of apathy we, as Americans in general, seem to have. Sadly, this apathy doesn't extend to just things outside our borders...but also applies to things within our borders.

Again...I'm willing to bet that over 1/2 of Americans cannot name their two U.S. Senators and thier Representative to Congress. I find that really sad.

Especially when you consider that probably 98 percent of Americans can tell you who Clay Aiken is. Americans tend to care about things that don't matter, and not to care about things that DO MATTER. I'm not quite sure why this is.

I'm also willing to bet that many do not know it is only in recent times one could vote for their U.S. Senators. The Nineteeth Amendment allowed for that. Prior to that time, Senators were often appointed by the State Legislatures of the various states.

I'm willing to further bet that there would be a bigger outcry if Americans were denied to right to vote for American Idol...than if the Nineteenth Amendment were repealed.

and #30

Corrupt, undemocratic US voting system: When other countries have slight irregularities in voting procedures, the USA takes this as a pretext to impose heavy trade sanctions. But often these irregularities are caused mostly by ignorance or misunderstandings. But in the 2000 election in the USA, thousands of African Americans were turned back from the polls in Florida because the officials knew that they would vote for the Democrats. As a result the candidate with the second-most votes was selected to be president. This kind of outright racism and election fixing would be regarded as unacceptable in third world countries. A new election would be required, but in the USA, the national interest required that the irregularities be ignored. The hypocrisy of US government lectures on democracy to other countries is shown by the widespread gerrymanders, first past the post voting, and electoral colleges in the USA. At best, one could call the USA a guided democracy.

If thousands of blacks were turned back, i think it would have made lots of news. Plus, the 2000 election was very controversial (went to the supreme court didn't it?)

#50. Sex overseas by US Americans: US males travelling overseas are very widely resented for seeking and having sex with the local women. This spreads diseases and unwanted children. (These children are called Amerasians in Asia.) But more importantly, it spreads resentment and hatred. This is true in Asia, Europe, Australia, and everywhere else. For example, sex between US soldiers and local women was very much resented in WW2 by British and Australian males. Most resented of all is the fact the local women often prefer US males to the locals because US Americans are richer and might offer them an escape from poverty. Usually the local women are left disappointed and often pregnant.

ROFLMAO @ #50....

the 2000 election shouldn't have been so controversial, since Florida election law defined how long counties were given to turn in their votes... unless an act of god occurred, the limit was (I believe) two weeks. Gore challenged (don't forget, Gore started the mess) the Florida law, and the Florida State Supreme Court legislated from the bench, basically dismissing laws on the books.

as for the allegation that thousands of African-Americans were turned away from the polls, lmao. what bullshit. that could not have happened.

think about it... could you imagine this?

Voter: Where do I vote?

Election supervisor (or whatever): Sorry sir, you can't vote.

lol, i just can't see that happening.

if the gripe is about the ballots in Florida, was it only Gore voters who had problems with it? And besides, whose fault is it if you can't follow an arrow to a name?

if you want to argue the electoral college, fine. but given Florida's laws at that time, and our country's presidential election laws, Bush won.

o, and i'm in the 10% :P i forgot about the redress thing.

That, incidentally, was the most frequently overlooked one. good job getting 4 out of 5, though.

Now try it on your friends and relatives and see if I am not right. See how many THEY can get! Try it on your co-workers and total strangers! See what you come up with.

My results have pretty well matched the published results where I originally got the question. I long since lost the original source, but I first heard the question...and the answers and statistics on The Neal Boortz Show. Yeah, I know, it's pretty strange to hear a liberal like me owning up to listening to Neal, isn't it?

Have to agree with Benzeniah,
Folks who come here and refuse to even TRY to learn English piss me the hell off, too!

Even worse are folks who only speak English when it is convenient for them to. People who know English and have out-loud conversations in Spanish are fucking RUDE! It's even ruder than whispering.

[snip]

Speak Spanish in your homes, your churches, wherever else...but damn it, when you are at work, fucking speak ENGLISH!!!

Ooooh, you make me feel sorry for you, poor fella. Here is something to make you smile!

You come into this country
You can't get real jobs
Boats and boats and boats of you
Go home you fuckin' slobs
Selling hot dogs on the corner
Selling papers in the street
Pushing, pulling, digging, sweating
Where you come from must be beat

You always make us wait
You're the ones we hate
You can't communicate
Speak English Or Die

You don't know what I want
You don't know what I need
Why must I repeat myself
Can't you fuckin' read?
Nice fuckin' accents
Why can't you speak like me
What's that dot on you head,
Do you use it to see??

the 2000 election shouldn't have been so controversial, since Florida election law defined how long counties were given to turn in their votes... unless an act of god occurred, the limit was (I believe) two weeks. Gore challenged (don't forget, Gore started the mess) the Florida law, and the Florida State Supreme Court legislated from the bench, basically dismissing laws on the books.

as for the allegation that thousands of African-Americans were turned away from the polls, lmao. what bullshit. that did not happen. democrats will lie their asses off to win an election.. next to "sore loser" in the dictionary should be a picture of Gore.

at least Kerry had some class.

Okay, then...YOU tell ME why the ATM's made by DIEBOLD offer a paper reciept for every transaction, but the voting machines made by DIEBOLD do not offer a paper reciept, confirming that your vote was tabulated as you intended for it to be?

Okay, then...YOU tell ME why the ATM's made by DIEBOLD offer a paper reciept for every transaction, but the voting machines made by DIEBOLD do not offer a paper reciept, confirming that your vote was tabulated as you intended for it to be?

you're insinuating that the folks at Diebold manipulated people's ballots?

wow. something tells me the system has a bit more integrity built into it than that.

I was used to bash America and everything American, but some years ago I just realized it was not worthy. So yes, great part of Americans don't know anything about other countries, so what? When someone asks the people of my country something related to Africa, we instantly think of little men running from tigers. One day, talking to a Spanish friend, he asked me if I had a snake or if I lived near a river. A friend from Malaysia, knowing where I was from asked me if I was a spanish speaker. Should I be offended? Well, I must admit great part of the people here get offended and I guess they shouldn't be. Ignorance is everywhere. To believe that only Americans are not well informed about the world is a mistake. The fact is *everyone* gets to know things they are interested about or that will somehow change their lives. We know the name of the president of USA because their decisions usually affect our lives. That's all. What's the name of Israel's President? And I'm not talking about the PM...Well, I honestly don't know because he has no influence in the way I live.

Speaking of the influence of USA in our lives , bashers usually criticize them for the deaths that happened 1,5,10,50 years ago. I honestly dont agree with the invasion in Iraq, but I surely know that all countries in the world have their war crimes. Brazil for instance received money from England back in the 19th century to invade Paraguay, a nation which was becoming very important. After winning the war, the Brazilian army decided to have some fun, so they contaminated all the rivers near to small Paraguayan cities with smallpox. At some point during the war, the brazilian army was fighting against Paraguayan teenagers. The teens would go to war, while some meters back their mothers would stay to collect their bodies later. The big hero of the Brazilian army one day decided to just kill the teens and the mothers. Spain decided to colonize Central America/South America and in this way killed thousands of natives and infected thousands with diseases. England wasn't a saint and neither was France, Italy, Russia, Germany and so on. So why pointing fingers when your country or at least mine still has to hide some dust under the carpet? All countries have a good and a bad side. America is not the devil.

Ooooh, you make me feel sorry for you, poor fella. Here is something to make you smile!

You come into this country
You can't get real jobs
Boats and boats and boats of you
Go home you fuckin' slobs
Selling hot dogs on the corner
Selling papers in the street
Pushing, pulling, digging, sweating
Where you come from must be beat

You always make us wait
You're the ones we hate
You can't communicate
Speak English Or Die

You don't know what I want
You don't know what I need
Why must I repeat myself
Can't you fuckin' read?
Nice fuckin' accents
Why can't you speak like me
What's that dot on you head,
Do you use it to see??

actually, i laud the immigrants who set up shop... at least they're working for a living, and maybe providing jobs for others in their predicament.

there's a Mexican-American guy who speaks just a lick of English... he's got a little taco stand that's conveniently on my way home from work. I feel good about stopping now and then for some food because maybe my money will help him realize that America can be a land of dreams. his tacos are good, too, which gives me an incentive to buy from him (it isn't all about charity. hehe)

you're insinuating that the folks at Diebold manipulated people's ballots?

wow. something tells me the system has a bit more integrity built into it than that.

There was a lot of controversy with some comments from the president of Diebold, a contributor to Bush's campaign, promising to "deliver Ohio" for the President. Nothing was conclusively proven, but comments like that would make anyone skeptical.

actually, i laud the immigrants who set up shop... at least they're working for a living, and maybe providing jobs for others in their predicament.

there's a Mexican-American guy who speaks just a lick of English... he's got a little taco stand that's conveniently on my way home from work. I feel good about stopping now and then for some food because maybe my money will help him realize that America can be a land of dreams. his tacos are good, too, which gives me an incentive to buy from him (it isn't all about charity. hehe)

I think the amount of people who come to this country and learn English is greater than the amount of Americans who go abroad and learn their new home's native tongue.

Ooooh, you make me feel sorry for you, poor fella. Here is something to make you smile!

You come into this country
You can't get real jobs
Boats and boats and boats of you
Go home you fuckin' slobs
Selling hot dogs on the corner
Selling papers in the street
Pushing, pulling, digging, sweating
Where you come from must be beat

You always make us wait
You're the ones we hate
You can't communicate
Speak English Or Die

You don't know what I want
You don't know what I need
Why must I repeat myself
Can't you fuckin' read?
Nice fuckin' accents
Why can't you speak like me
What's that dot on you head,
Do you use it to see??


Actually, that does not make me smile. It makes me sick.
Those lyrics are absolutely appalling.

I just want immigrants who come here to at least fucking TRY to learn English. and if they do know English, then they should be courteous when in a work environment, and not speak in their native tongue, so that no one else can join the conversation. It's rude.

When I went to Thailand for three weeks, I made an effort to learn some basic Thai. Even though most of the natives of Bangkok could speak at least broken English, and some spoke excellent English. I made an effort.

In the end, I had a friend of mine from the Phillippines, who I met in the hospital, help me out by making some Eglish-Thai flashcards, and when I got into a situation where I could not adequately communicate - I used the cards. And I was only there for three weeks.

There are immigrants here that have been here for years, can't speak a lick of English, never tried to learn, and have no intention of learning. That irritates me. I would expect to have to learn Spanish if I decided to live in Mexico...French if I decided to live in Paris, or German if I decided to live in Berlin. Why the hell shouldn't immigrants have to...and expect to learn English if they are going to live here?

I have no problem with people who try. I have no problem with people who have "funny accents," though I may have to ask them to repeat, or speak more slowly or more clearly, that I may understand them.

The Americans deserve to be bashed - they dont rule the world ..yet

I think the amount of people who come to this country and learn English is greater than the amount of Americans who go abroad and learn their new home's native tongue.


But generally speaking, the United States citizens aren't staying abroad, they're on vacation or a business trip. Many of the immigrants from Mexico here in Arizona have been here for years and years and continue to speak only Spanish.

Actually, that does not make me smile. It makes me sick.
Those lyrics are absolutely appalling.
Well, i can say the same for your outburst.
Have you ever imagined that people are more comfortable speaking in their mother tongue and that they might not do it to piss you off? I can speak english fluently, but when i visit Britain with another german i would not think of speaking english with him. Because i am faster, more experienced and able to more delicately put it in german. Woot!
Sorry, but you are the rude one if you want to prescribe people what language they use. If you must do business with someone you cannot understand, well you have a case there, if not, let people live their life like they want to. Learn some goddamn tolerance!

Nice work. A lot of us took part in this too-we were involved in relief efforts with our church, the scouts and the Mom's Club.

You're right-its not a general thing. Many of us care and many of us make concerted efforts and sacrafice.

I think that American bashing can clearly be defined with the above sentiment. While it a lot of times it may be true that generally America is uneducated about other places, generally is pretty lazy, generally is more selfish than other countries... It is important to keep in mind that there are many educated, caring, and compassionate Americans amidst this. The dismissal of these qualities of individuals is America bashing.

I agree, young Republicans are so irritating, aren't they?


Good one, my friend. *L* You got me.

I think the amount of people who come to this country and learn English is greater than the amount of Americans who go abroad and learn their new home's native tongue.
Yes, and I think it is very strange how in North America (because people do this in Canada too) that people make fun of other's accents, as thought speaking imperfect, or heavily accented English makes these people stupid. English can be a bitch of a language to learn...and there are also plenty of immigrants who are already multilingual... English may just be the newest language for them to learn. We should be happy that people are trying to learn the language, rather than making fun of the way they speak it. When you go abroad, and attempt, even horribly, to speak the native language, people are usually incredible excited that you are trying. When I first began traveling I was horribly self-conscious of my Spanish or my phrase-book Quechua...but the people I met could care less how poor my language skills were. Once I realised that, I spoke way more, and learned a lot quicker.

So in short (too late!), if you want more people to learn English? Be polite to those who are trying, take the time to understand them, make corrections in a helpful, and polite many, and show some enthusiasm that they are TRYING.

Good one, my friend. *L* You got me.
If *L* stands for *licks*...could I get you too? :D

If *L* stands for *licks*...could I get you too? :D

Hey, sweetie, you have a TG. :D

I just want immigrants who come here to at least fucking TRY to learn English. and if they do know English, then they should be courteous when in a work environment, and not speak in their native tongue, so that no one else can join the conversation. It's rude.

Uh... Why should they, if they're not talking to you, but to someone of their mother tongue?

Uh... Why should they, if they're not talking to you, but to someone of their mother tongue?
Exactly. Why should I care what others are saying?

Well, that perception may even be valid. I merely asked the question as it was presented to me...and gave the answer that was originally attached to the question, and in that original question there were five rights enumerated. I didn't inject my own opinion into it.

Nevertheless, my point in presenting this was to point out that not only Americans, generally, ignorant of the rest of the world...but ignorant of their own country and rights, as well.

And, if you do not know what your rights are, you may as well not even have any rights!

I find it incredibly sad the level of apathy we, as Americans in general, seem to have. Sadly, this apathy doesn't extend to just things outside our borders...but also applies to things within our borders.

Again...I'm willing to bet that over 1/2 of Americans cannot name their two U.S. Senators and thier Representative to Congress. I find that really sad.

Especially when you consider that probably 98 percent of Americans can tell you who Clay Aiken is. Americans tend to care about things that don't matter, and not to care about things that DO MATTER. I'm not quite sure why this is.

I'm also willing to bet that many do not know it is only in recent times one could vote for their U.S. Senators. The Nineteeth Amendment allowed for that. Prior to that time, Senators were often appointed by the State Legislatures of the various states.

I'm willing to further bet that there would be a bigger outcry if Americans were denied to right to vote for American Idol...than if the Nineteenth Amendment were repealed.

I fully understand your original point and think it is a valid and important one.

By answering your post -- even with a technical quibble -- I hope to gain attention to it.

:cool: :D

Actually I view the "America bashing" as more of a review. Since America does the actions the rest of the world doesn't want to do, the world mocks us and usually gives the US a bad review. (I am of course not talking about the countries who have agreed with us to be a part of our coalition, but they did have to be asked by us to participate)

I am saying in context to the one major thing today, "The War on Terror". The US tries to do things it thinks is best for the world. We actually could really care less about peace and such, because if there were a massive war such we would have the resources and the will to fight because we can. Prevention is all we are doing... and we are not done yet.

So to sum it up read my first sentence... that's all I was really trying to say.

I fully understand your original point and think it is a valid and important one.

By answering your post -- even with a technical quibble -- I hope to gain attention to it.


Don't believe him. Cat just likes to think he's being smart. But we all know what thought did, don't we?

He thought he shit his pants, and when he looked, he knew he had. (It's a favourite saying of my mother's)

America bashing is basically any illogical attack on America. It's fine to criticize, but character assaults (calling us "fat" and "stupid" in broad sweeps) and unfair criticisms are not alright. Also, blaming everything on America is "bashing" as well. (Mainly, I'm referring to those who seem to put more blame on America in the War on Terror than on the terrorists.)


Well said, I also think there is alot of ignorant people when it comes to there knowledge of America. I travel alot and I hear this "Americans just know about America and know one else." Then I normally ask them what America's all about. I get varying answers. Some are right, alot are wrong. Just alot of misperceptions. I try my best at correcting wrong ideas about America myself. But it is just pure ignorance from what I can tell most of the time.

Rule of thumb as I see it: If you are going to make geneneral statements, say that you're going by averages. Or prefix it with 'in my experience'.

Clearly, a number US citizens on this forum feel that they are being unjustly 'bashed'. Some of you are right. Some of you, however, see bashing where none exists. In fact, quite often the topic has nothing to do with the US or with its citizens, and suddenly, accusations fly about "American-bashing". I'm a bit baffled, so I'd like to look into this a bit deeper.

How do YOU personally define "American bashing"?

Is any criticism of the US, it's people or administration? Is it specific criticisms? Is it the way such criticisms are phrased (clearly flaming or otherwise)? What types of comments get you riled up the most and feeling attacked?

I'd like, if at all possible, to discuss the perceptions of US citizens about "American bashing", and the perceptions of those who are accused of doing it. I'm wondering how much of our conflict is built up beyond the reality of the situation, and how much is valid. PLEASE try to be cordial. I don't want personal attacks, from anyone, towards anyone else. Phrase your comments to be respectful, even if they include 'examples' which are not. Thanks.

PS. I'm choosing to talk about American bashing rather than conservative/liberal/atheist/Christian or whatever else bashing, because I think the polarization on NS is often more the US against the world or visa versa. That's just MY perception:).

Forgive me, this may have already been added. I'll go ahead anyway.

It seems to me that it's more of a generallization problem or stereotype problem than anything. People have a problem with one thing in American (or more), or one group. For example, let's use Pres. Bush. Personally, I like him. However, I've seen many a person call him a moron. Hey, that's fine. Everyone has there own ideas. But, I've seen that carried over to the American population. And I think that that right there is where the problem lies. It's everywhere too. It gets difficult because a lot of people don't realize that you need to know a person fully before passing judgment, and that's where these generalizations are a problem. And I think that that right there is why many Americans belive that there is "American Bashing". This is just my view on the matter, but thank you for starting the thread, I think it needed to be started.

you're insinuating that the folks at Diebold manipulated people's ballots?

wow. something tells me the system has a bit more integrity built into it than that.

No, I'm not INSINUATING anything. OUTRIGHT ACCUSING is what I'm doing.

Bet your ASS I'm accusing Diebold of screwing with the election. When the Presaident of Diebold comes out and promises to deliver Ohio to the Republicans...and Diebold is counting the votes, bet your ass I'm accusing. no insinuation here.

You don't see the conflict of interest? You don't see where that looks bad?

Besides, have you any clue how easy it is to bury code in a program that makes the screen show up one thing, and count the vote a different way?

Let's examine...they won't allow independent review of their code...they won't allow election inspectors...they won't provide a voter-verified paper trail...and their CEO promises "to deliver Ohio to the Republicans" and we're not supposed to be suspicious?

I wish I believed our voting system had integrity built into it. Alas, I'm afraid it no longer has any integrity. Not when there is not an independently verifyable paper trail.

So, let me get this straight. No, I'm not INSINUATING that Diebold screwed with the election results. I am OUTRIGHT ACCUSING them of screwing with the election results.

There was a lot of controversy with some comments from the president of Diebold, a contributor to Bush's campaign, promising to "deliver Ohio" for the President. Nothing was conclusively proven, but comments like that would make anyone skeptical.
thanks for the independent corroboration! I posted my own comments about that before I even saw yours! Glad someone ELSE remembers that. Doesn't anyone else see where that looks really dodgy?

Uh... Why should they, if they're not talking to you, but to someone of their mother tongue?

Because maybe they are talking ABOUT me. And that is fucking rude. I wanna damn well know what is being said, if someone is talking ABOUT me.

And, as I have said, I am somewhat fluent in spanish, and I don't always let on that I am...and more than once I have caught spanish folk talking about me, and making jokes about me...in Spanish. It's fucking rude.

Because maybe they are talking ABOUT me. And that is fucking rude. I wanna damn well know what is being said, if someone is talking ABOUT me.

And, as I have said, I am somewhat fluent in spanish, and I don't always let on that I am...and more than once I have caught spanish folk talking about me, and making jokes about me...in Spanish. It's fucking rude.

What Lyric said. Believe me, my paranoia and the potential effects of it outweigh any political correctness BS. They come to an English country, they try and learn English. I go to Spain, I try and learn Spanish. Seems simple to me.

Because maybe they are talking ABOUT me....
Ich wünschte du könntest deine Argumente besser strukturieren. Im Moment klingst du wie ein typischer Ami halt...
:D

Because maybe they are talking ABOUT me. And that is fucking rude. I wanna damn well know what is being said, if someone is talking ABOUT me.

And, as I have said, I am somewhat fluent in spanish, and I don't always let on that I am...and more than once I have caught spanish folk talking about me, and making jokes about me...in Spanish. It's fucking rude.

Talking about you behind your back/in another language = rude.

Not talking in your language when not talking to you != always rude.

QED

In what way? Terrorist attacks (al-Quaida exclusively) killed how many? 6000?
How many Afghans and Iraqis were killed? Not soldiers, civilians?
Last number I read was an estimated 10 000 in Iraq alone...
Over 100,000 civilians in Iraq, according to the WHO. Civiliab casualites in Afghanistan number around 20,000 or so, IIRC.

Al-Qaeda killed slightly less than 3,000 people on 9/11. Dunno how many since.

As an American, I think the worst kind of America bashing is those that treat America's strengths as weaknesses -- that blame our ideals for a lack of "safety."

Those that criticize freedom of expression, freedom of the press, the 4th Amendment, the 5th Amendment, etc, as getting in the way of the "war on terror" are the true "blame America first" crowd.

Those that think we are vulnerable because we are free -- that blame freedom for terrorism -- are America bashing.

Those that think dissent weakens rather than strengthens and should be silenced are America bashing.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

You forgot Poland!

Wait. I mean you forgot the 2nd Ammendment. You fail 9th grade for that. You'll have to repeat the grade.

You forgot Poland!

Wait. I mean you forgot the 2nd Ammendment. You fail 9th grade for that. You'll have to repeat the grade.

:rolleyes:

Run along and play with your guns ....

Maybe some of you will get a better understanding of why people badmouth the US so much, and why many people have a hard time holding back the swearwords and personal attacks.

Why do they hate us so much? (http://www.isometry.com/usahate.html)

NB: Sorry if something similar have already been posted. I couldn't be arsed to look

I'm going to add my two cents (I used that figure of speech for a reason; please bear with me for the moment). First off, let me say that I am American and proud of it (Also said that for a reason).

America bashing is NOT disagreeing with our policies. That is well within anyone's rights; if a policy is stupid and nobody complains, it won't get fixed, and then things go downhill from there. Nor is it disagreeing with our administration, for the above reason (I don't like a lot of things the current administration is doing, but I'm not rabidly anti-Bush. Said it for a reason, blah blah blah, you should know the drill by now).

America bashing IS disagreeing with our policies in an intentionally vitriolic manner. Saying "I feel that the United States should should show more interest in the rest of the world" is not America bashing. Saying "The United States is a country of illiterate prepubescent neanderthals who compensate for lack of bravery by ignoring our far-superior countries" IS. Saying "I disagree with many of the Bush Administration's actions, such as *insert issue here*" is not America bashing. Saying "Bushitler is a stupid puppet monkey who needs someone to hold his hand so he can go potty" IS. One of the main facets of America bashing is hatemongering and name-calling. If you can't make your point without resorting to such tactics, please remain silent. Debates are meant to be a constructive exchange of ideas, not a breeding ground for more hate and misunderstanding.

A second aspect of America bashing is, as stated by other users, stereotyping. For instance, I am a Texan who is now living in Louisiana. Does that mean I'm a shotgun-toting, Nascar-watching, illiterate, drawling, barely-educated hick who wrestles alligators in his back yard for fun? Many stereotypes would imply if not outright say that. Such practices are folly; I for one, do not fit any of those broad brushstrokes. Nor are 98% of the people I know. Attempting to lump a huge population under one label ALWAYS causes misunderstandings, because large groups are by nature impossible to broadly categorize (at least in the manner I'm addressing). Just because I'm an American does not mean I'm a cavalier, "let's go do what's best for the world because we say so," issue-ignorant xenophobe. Most of us aren't. Many of us are kind, well-meaning people who want to improve the lives around us, even if just by a little bit. The worst elements of any society are always the ones emphasized. Don't assume we all fit that vision.

A third aspect is selective perceptions. This occurs even in the American media. The bad is always emphasized, and the good is pushed to a tiny column on page 15, if it appears at all (which it usually does not). While this is not America bashing per se, it contributes to the attitudes which in turn foster said bashing.

The fourth and worst aspect is simply rabid hatred of everything American. For instance, I would consider it to be America bashing if somebody jumped me and started assaulting me (usually verbally, but physically is not unknown is some instances around the world) for using the phrase "my two cents." Such assaults usually center around how using that term implies that I feel everyone should adopt US currency, US rule, US blah blah you get the picture, when in truth it's just a figure of speech. Or, it could be verbally harrassing me because I admit to being proud to be American. I take pride in my country. I know that it's DEFINITELY not perfect, but it's a whole b'vekin' lot better than it COULD be. Flaming me for that statement would also be America bashing, because it demonstrates unreasoned hatred. And finally, I would also consider being verbally attacked for claiming to support Bush on some issues to be America bashing, as it more or less tells us the flamer believes we are so screwed up we should not support ANYTHING our government does. Once again, it DOES do good things as well. We just don't hear about them as much (see point #3).

All in all, however, it boils down to: America bashing is, in my perception, name-calling and stereotyping, usually highly hostile.

Hopefully my stance won't offend so deeply they become filled with the urge to curse me with the fleas of a thousand mangy koalas (if they have fleas, which I'm pretty sure they do... if not, pick any vermin-infested animal you prefer) and an interesting life, besides.

Its likely a large portion of these people still live with mommy and daddy and work part time in retail or fast-food.

Someone's gotta serve those burgers.

hmmm...how to put this, i like bits of america, i really do, i love Boston and its yummy clam chower, and absolutey loved cape cod and all its cute little houses and the 'irish pub' i went to that was having a loch Ness night. I love Ben&Jerrys, and Scrubs, Simpsons and Friends. I love its rock music, and the fact that its one of very few countires that you can get pretty much every climate in. its almost like a mini world in itself.
but i think therein lies part of my problem with it, i remember hearing that only 5% of all Americans have passports. yes that is probably loads of people, becuase america is huuuuuge, but FIVE PERCENT?? travel, people!! i also read that about 45% of US citizens get all their information of global news just from Celebs, now thats all fine and good until you start thinking about the celebs in question...how well informed would you say Justin &Snopp dog are on major world events?
And yes, i still can't believe that you relected a Man who ignored all warnings from other countires about a a possible terrorist attack just before 9/11, and who's favourite childhood book was the hungry caterpillar, which was released when he was at college. (come to that i can't beileve we relected his best friend, a man who can't talk without the spasmodic jerking of his hands)
And it really bugs me that a couple of days after the Tusanmi disastar (excuse spelling) gobal headlines were all very simliar, telling of this tradgey and the poor people's plight etc, and one US papers headlines were along the lines of 'America gives most aid, first on scence to help some other country'.
It also upsets me that when watching Tony Blair being interviewed just before the G8 summit began, the gernal point the newsman was trying to get across was that everyone BUT Mr Bush, was fully agreed on several things, but just becuase he isn't, they'd probably spent a lot more time debating for a lot less than they wanted.
I think its great you can all stand up and say, 'hey, we're just amazing, for such a young country, we're coming on just fine, we big, rich and generally nice people to be around.' whereas i generally find that the british attitude is 'meh. yeah the £ is strong, but its raining. again. in july. our national dish evolved somewhere in the middle east. i suppose we're alright, i guess, not that we're one to put ourselves forward' . however, you must think, in your place of you/school etc, theres probably someone who's slightly richer than you, with a bigger house, and THREE cars, even though only two people in the house can drive, and they KNOW they're really great, and the walk around with a smug, i'm really great smile on, and its annoying.
But i'm well aware, that probably the majority of americans, like the majority of everyone in the world, are generally nice people once you get to know them, the kind of people you'd invite round for dinner and encourage your kids to play with theirs, and like the rest of the world, its just a few rich bastards spoiling it for the rest of you. its just that usually your rich bastards can afford to spoil it more extravagantly than some, and with better media coverage. and becuase pratically everyone owes your money or is at least aware that sometime soon the might, they're watching you a bit more closely than say, Austraila, who is also very big.

*snip*.

Whatever you said was probably brillant,

But please use some formating. The Enter key. Space things out.

Thos long dense columns of text are simply overwhelming. I can hear my brai cells die.

***This has been a public service announcement (unofficial) by TCT***

Whatever you said was probably brillant,

But please use some formating. The Enter key. Space things out.

Thos long dense columns of text are simply overwhelming. I can hear my brai cells die.

***This has been a public service announcement (unofficial) by TCT***

As tired as I am, I thought you said "bra cells"!

:p

As tired as I am, I thought you said "bra cells"!

:p


Well, I told you I tolk my sleep remedy. I should be conscious much longer. It is coming and going as is. :eek: :D

Objection to the American governments foreign policy is not 'anti American'.

Because maybe they are talking ABOUT me. And that is fucking rude. I wanna damn well know what is being said, if someone is talking ABOUT me.

And, as I have said, I am somewhat fluent in spanish, and I don't always let on that I am...and more than once I have caught spanish folk talking about me, and making jokes about me...in Spanish. It's fucking rude.

If you are 'somewhat fluent', then do what our German teacher did on his trip to Austria, and reply in the language. They'll stop immedietly.

If you are 'somewhat fluent', then do what our German teacher did on his trip to Austria, and reply in the language. They'll stop immedietly.

oh, I did that once, too. And you are right, it did work.
What I said was...

Hey, this gringa speak your linga...
Meta su brazos in colad, puto!

You coulda heard a pin drop! LOL

Incidentally, you don't want me to translate the second part of that for you. It's extremely rude!
suffice to say I suggested an anatomical impossibility.

I just want to point out...it seems there is a real division WITHIN the US as well in this regard...can we call US citizens "American bashers" too? I suppose each side could consider the other "American bashers"...ah...subjectivity...

I am far more afraid of those within America that are willing to impinge upon civil liberties for the sake of what they call security or for the sake of their personal religion, than I will ever be of some Canadian or European who stereotypes Americans and uses that stereotypes to dismiss all Americans and all actions of the American government. I don't like either group, but I'm much more afraid of the first group, some of whom are very vocal on this board.

America bashing is basically any illogical attack on America. It's fine to criticize, but character assaults (calling us "fat" and "stupid" in broad sweeps) and unfair criticisms are not alright. Also, blaming everything on America is "bashing" as well. (Mainly, I'm referring to those who seem to put more blame on America in the War on Terror than on the terrorists.)


That's the main one for me. I have a problem with people that look at the death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan as American made problems. Yes we do kill the terrorists, yes we sometimes accedentally kill Civs, yes the terrorists sometimes kill civs but things are still much better in Iraq now that we are over there. A friend of mine has a poster on which he has several pics of Iraqis with signs that say things like "Thank you Mr. Bush", "Allah bless you America" and the like hanging out of cars and windows. No matter what the news says the people over there are much better off. Everyone I know who is serving in Iraq tells me that the people are constantly thanking them and trying to give them things.

oh, I did that once, too. And you are right, it did work.
What I said was...

Hey, this gringa speak your linga...
Meta su brazos in colad, puto!

You coulda heard a pin drop! LOL

Incidentally, you don't want me to translate the second part of that for you. It's extremely rude!
suffice to say I suggested an anatomical impossibility.
I was sitting there thinking 'hey that's not what that says!'. Then I finished the post. *Slaps self in head* I never learned anything but polite Spanish...

*Massive snip*

Everything he said, except more of it.

{snip}
How do YOU personally define "American bashing"?
{snip}


It involves an axe handle, & my forehead. Other than that ...

Clearly, a number US citizens on this forum feel that they are being unjustly 'bashed'. Some of you are right. Some of you, however, see bashing where none exists. In fact, quite often the topic has nothing to do with the US or with its citizens, and suddenly, accusations fly about "American-bashing". I'm a bit baffled, so I'd like to look into this a bit deeper.

How do YOU personally define "American bashing"?

Is any criticism of the US, it's people or administration? Is it specific criticisms? Is it the way such criticisms are phrased (clearly flaming or otherwise)? What types of comments get you riled up the most and feeling attacked?

I'd like, if at all possible, to discuss the perceptions of US citizens about "American bashing", and the perceptions of those who are accused of doing it. I'm wondering how much of our conflict is built up beyond the reality of the situation, and how much is valid. PLEASE try to be cordial. I don't want personal attacks, from anyone, towards anyone else. Phrase your comments to be respectful, even if they include 'examples' which are not. Thanks.

PS. I'm choosing to talk about American bashing rather than conservative/liberal/atheist/Christian or whatever else bashing, because I think the polarization on NS is often more the US against the world or visa versa. That's just MY perception:).

I am American and i dont mind if people critize my government as long as they remember not all of us vote for that monkey in office. :)

America bashing is basically any illogical attack on America. It's fine to criticize, but character assaults (calling us "fat" and "stupid" in broad sweeps) and unfair criticisms are not alright. Also, blaming everything on America is "bashing" as well. (Mainly, I'm referring to those who seem to put more blame on America in the War on Terror than on the terrorists.)


That's the main one for me. I have a problem with people that look at the death toll in Iraq and Afghanistan as American made problems. Yes we do kill the terrorists, yes we sometimes accedentally kill Civs, yes the terrorists sometimes kill civs but things are still much better in Iraq now that we are over there. A friend of mine has a poster on which he has several pics of Iraqis with signs that say things like "Thank you Mr. Bush", "Allah bless you America" and the like hanging out of cars and windows. No matter what the news says the people over there are much better off. Everyone I know who is serving in Iraq tells me that the people are constantly thanking them and trying to give them things.

You know i might agree with you if Iraq had Jack shit to do with Terrorists which it doesnt.

[QUOTE=Weremooseland]

You know i might agree with you if Iraq had Jack shit to do with Terrorists which it doesnt.
Very well change 'terrorists' to 'insurgents' in my post. I think you missed my point. The Iraqi people are better off now, Iraq is not a 'dissaster' like many World news and American news agencies claim.

flame.

There I did it. You have all been flamed. :eek:

Muhuhahahaha!

Very well change 'terrorists' to 'insurgents' in my post. I think you missed my point. The Iraqi people are better off now, Iraq is not a 'dissaster' like many World news and American news agencies claim.

Much of Iraq's prewar infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Most of the country lacks running water and power. Insurgent attacks have been increasing steadily for a little over a year, but much of the country seems to be recovering. It still remains to be seen just what will happen with Iraq. It's still in the works.

Very well change 'terrorists' to 'insurgents' in my post. I think you missed my point. The Iraqi people are better off now, Iraq is not a 'dissaster' like many World news and American news agencies claim.

Much of Iraq's prewar infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Most of the country lacks running water and power. Insurgent attacks have been increasing steadily for a little over a year, but much of the country seems to be recovering. It still remains to be seen just what will happen with Iraq. It's still in the works.

Much of Iraq's prewar infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Most of the country lacks running water and power. Insurgent attacks have been increasing steadily for a little over a year, but much of the country seems to be recovering. It still remains to be seen just what will happen with Iraq. It's still in the works.
Given the choice between having your young women raped by gov officials, being shot for any supposed dessent, having your family tortured before your eyes because you refused to (fill in the blank). Given the choice between those and not having power and water, which would you choose?

[QUOTE=The Celtic Union1]
Very well change 'terrorists' to 'insurgents' in my post. I think you missed my point. The Iraqi people are better off now, Iraq is not a 'dissaster' like many World news and American news agencies claim.

That is a load of shit, too, and you know it.

How many times have we been given different reasons for why we went into Iraq? first it was WMD's...they supposedly had millions of gallons of anthrax, they had drone-planes that could squirt that crap all over the U.S....they were coming to get us, they'd bought yellow cake from Niger, they were about 2 years away from developing a nuke, and we KNEW exactly where all this shit was...
Yet, we never found any of it! So then the story became about them violating U.N. Resolutions and that was why we went. Forget the fact that WE routinely violate UN Resolutions, and otherwise thumb our nose at the UN when it stands in our way! So, when that was pointed out...
It suddenly became about "liberating the Iraqi people" and we were told fish stories about how the people would throw roses in our paths, it would take six weeks...six months tops, and "wouldn't hardly cost us a dime." We were told the war in Iraq would pay for itself.
That hasn't happened.
Then, and most recently, we are now being told that we went in because terrorists are there, and training there, and coming there to train. Problem is...they WEREN'T doing that until we went in and fucked up Iraq!!

I just wish the government would quit treating us like idiots...we ALL know good and damn well the two reasons Dubya went to war with Iraq. We were dead-set on going to war against Iraq since November 2000 and the Downing Street Memos make this abundantly clear...anybody remember the phrase "the facts were being fixed around the policy??"

That means policy had already been set, and only those facts that supported that policy were being considered. any other facts were rejected out of hand, or twisted in order to fit the policy...too justify a course of action already decided on.

And WHY...really...did Dubya go to war with Iraq?

2 Reasons:

1. O-I-L
2. To get revenge for Daddy.

This whole fucking quagmire in Iraq ought to be named "Operation Anigo Montoya!"