NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just interested in everyone's views on patriotism for their own country.

And I don't mean whether or not you approve of patriotism,etc.

But to me, as an American, it seems like Americans have an excellent grasp on their patriotism....between the excellent story we have in our revolutionary war to even the wealth of extremely patriotic songs (most of which we can thank JPSousa for)...

Do other nations of the world have things such as songs, color configurations, etc. that are simply dripping in patriotism for your nation, or is this largely a phenomenon unique to America?

I'm Chinese and I love my country. Every inch of it. Even the bits which don't belong to us yet, including Taiwan and the South Sea Islands.

I may not agree with my government, but I love my country and my people.

I equally love the world's peoples and cultures, though.

I'm Chinese and I love my country. Every inch of it. Even the bits which don't belong to us yet, including Taiwan and the South Sea Islands.
ROFFLE

I may not agree with my government, but I love my country and my people.

I equally love the world's peoples and cultures, though.
That's the same position I'm in, however...

What I'm more interested in...beyond just love for your country, what other aspects of patriotism are there in your country? Are there lots of songs that you associate with love for your nation--and if so, is there a way to describe them? Etc.

I think the phrase "having an excellent grasp" on your patriotism is a silly remark.

You can't choose the country you are born in, so its foolish to be proud of it. I rather look at things by class perspective than national perspective. Class pride, worldwide!

I think the phrase "having an excellent grasp" on your patriotism is a silly remark.
Thanks for adding to the discussion.

I do what I can do when I can do it

You can't choose the country you are born in, so its foolish to be proud of it. I rather look at things by class perspective than national perspective. Class pride, worldwide!
It's not foolish to be proud of what your country stands for, unless you are doing so blindly.

I, however, am greatly appreciative of at least what the red and white stripes, and the blue field of white stars is supposed to mean.

Jerusalem, C. Hubert H. Parry (1916)

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire.

I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land

don't forget US's "excellent revolutionary war" included robbing people from another continent to make your coutry rich until some smartened up and started a war to try and end slavery.

don't forget US's "excellent revolutionary war" included robbing people from another continent to make your coutry rich until some smartened up and started a war to try and end slavery.
Quite the history buff, aren't we?

I am proud of my country because it is the community that I am ultimately apart of that benefits me as I benefit it. It is not stupid to be proud of it and I do owe it some loyalty for the job it has done securing my own welfare.

Well.... is it wrong?

ROFFLE


What's so funny?



What I'm more interested in...beyond just love for your country, what other aspects of patriotism are there in your country? Are there lots of songs that you associate with love for your nation--and if so, is there a way to describe them? Etc.

Oh yeah, songs....they aren't so blatant in Hong Kong as yet...we've just begun to take the national anthem more seriously...but I know in the Mainland, they compose songs just to praise the Communist Party - they sound horribly awkward and funny, especially when I know what REALLY happened! :D:D:D:D

The details: I was in Chengdu in Sichuan for a vacation last October. They introduced some choral groups, including some girls from the local native tribes. Now my brother and I knew that these native tribes were more repressed than released when the Communists came, and then they begun singing songs with the following lyrics: "Life is better when the Communists came" in a very...um...awkward tune... My brother and I suffocated trying not to laugh out loud. Lol...

Well.... is it wrong?
That depends. Are you referring to a war in American history? If so, then yes, it's wrong. There was no such war in American history.

Then why did the north attack the south. Cotton envy?

What's so funny?
What's funny is the part about the territory that you don't have yet.

Anyway...awkward most definitely doesn't not describe American songs of patriotism.

Unless Rosanne Barr sings it

I don't understand the point of being patriotic. I didn't choose to live here, and if I had the choice, I can think of a great number of other countries I'd rather live in.

Why? Just because I was born here doesn't mean I should think it's better than everywhere else.

If I had a choice I'd be an Aussie or live in the UK.

Then why did the north attack the south. Cotton envy?
First off, the American Civil War was initiated when a civilian ordered a brigade of Conferedate (the south) troops to attack a Union (the north) fort...I'm not entirely sure why the troops followed the civilian's orders...but that's beside the point.

And if you knew anything about American history, you'd know that Abraham Lincoln (and the rest of the north...and much of the world) was blatantly racist. Abraham fought the Civil War in order to preserve the union. Eventually, it led to him drafting the Emancipation Proclamation (and whether he really had the power to do that is still debated), which essentially did nothing anyway. AFTER the war, the United States congress passed ammendments to end slavery.

I liike my country. Mostly for the people in it.

I don't sing 'Jerusalem' 'Rule Britannia' or 'God Save the Queen' unless I have to though. I feel that patriotism is not best displayed like that.

Patriotism, by the way, is not about arrogance. It's about loving your country and what it stands for. If you feel that there's no reason to, then I don't see why you should...but despite not having a choice of what country I was born into, I still greatly appreciate the ideas that founded my nation, and choose to celebrate that. That is patriotism.

Canada is ok but we need a better government to the south.

Oh Canada!

Our Home and Native Land.

True Patriot Love.

In all Thy sons command

Unless Rosanne Barr sings it
I actually prefer the military band performances of American patriotic songs (with no singing) to the sung version...

Who was it that said that '' Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel''? I bet that he had an essential grasp of patriotism.patriotism has being the rallying cry in many wars

In my province, we have two kinds of patriotism... and sometimes, they're compatible. But just sometimes.

:D :eek:

http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/images/canada_flag.gif

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/taxcredit/sred/images/qc_flag.gif

What's funny is the part about the territory that you don't have yet.


Well, they're still part of the concept and nation of "China", just that we don't physically own them...yet.

Anyway...awkward most definitely doesn't not describe American songs of patriotism.

American songs are not awkward yet...just weird...slightly weird. Lol.

I prefer the Jimi Hendrix version (no singing)

vive quebec

je me souviens... what does that mean?

American songs are not awkward yet...just weird...slightly weird. Lol.
They probably sound weird to you simply because you are not American. And I don't mean that in a snobbish way...but I've listened to the National Anthems of a few countries..and not really liked them much, despite absolutely loving the Star Spangled Banner (and many, many, many other songs of American patriotism), and I figure it's mostly because I am American.

Well, in many cases if you hate your country it is possible to leave. Many people have moved to other nations in the past.

I prefer the Jimi Hendrix version (no singing)
I actually hate that version of the Star Spangled banner...but I don't really like metal in general.

I kind of like the Germen anthem. Very strong sounding

Only a coward has no patriotic feelings for his country, so what if you dont agree with the government of the day, your fighting for the soil you were born on, the air that you breathe, thats whats important!

For a general description of American patriotic songs...

Take a love song...that's not played by a symphony...played by a band (no strings, heavy on the brass end)...speed it up, and make it more agressive sounding...

And if it's a Sousa song, it's in 2/4

whats important isn't borders. nations are different then states. nations are more of a cultural connection. states are just borders. patriotism is a celebration of borders. makes no sense.

I liike my country. Mostly for the people in it.

I don't sing 'Jerusalem' 'Rule Britannia' or 'God Save the Queen' unless I have to though. I feel that patriotism is not best displayed like that.

You do? Christ, I hate the natives near me. I don't habitually sing them either, and I couldn't remember the words if I tried, it's just that 'Jerusalem' is a particularly good patriotic song. You read what that Chinese bloke said? Their idea of a patriotic song is singing 'Communism is really cool' over and over and OVER. Jerusalem is more subtle, inspiring, and generally easier to sing than most, and can also be used in other situations. Like films. And stuff.

patriotism has being the rallying cry in many wars
Which...in some cases is good...and in some cases bad. When it's patriotism as propaganda (such as what's going on now in America), it's bad...but in the case of the American Revolution, and the Civil War (for the Union), and World War II, it's very, very good.

Only a coward has no patriotic feelings for his country, so what if you dont agree with the government of the day, your fighting for the soil you were born on, the air that you breathe, thats whats important!

Yeah. What he said.

You can't choose the country you are born in, so its foolish to be proud of it. I rather look at things by class perspective than national perspective. Class pride, worldwide!
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Patriotism is something politicians use, to make people march to an early grave, or turn a blind eye at grave injustices. It's a bullshit guilttrip over how lucky you are for being born with opportunities.

Still, there's nothing wrong in being proud of your countrys accomplishments, especially if you helped achive them. But patriotism will always be synonymous with Lemming in my mind.

vive quebec

je me souviens... what does that mean?
It means "I remember". Or more precisely "Don't forget about your origins".

Patriotism runs deep in Quebec. The Quebec identity is easier to "feel" than the Canadian identity... but it's a bit unfair to Canadians: Quebecois have their language, which helps to feel "different" from the rest of North America.

But really, culturally we're 80% North American (a mix of Canadian-British-American culture), and only 20% European. That's why Europeans (especially French speaking), who expect to find either cowboys or parisian cafés in Montreal, feel so disoriented when they arrive here. It's somewhere in between... but culturally, what a mess.


Patriotism in Quebec?
There are a few well-known patriotic songs (which I won't write here), the "Patriots Day" (november 24th), which is a "national" holiday in the province, the flag, "Flag Day" (january 21), the official flower (white lily), and so on.

Oh, and there is a second flag -- the Patriot flag, which is green-white-red. But it is seldom used.

They probably sound weird to you simply because you are not American. And I don't mean that in a snobbish way...but I've listened to the National Anthems of a few countries..and not really liked them much, despite absolutely loving the Star Spangled Banner (and many, many, many other songs of American patriotism), and I figure it's mostly because I am American.

National anthems are cultural, conservative things...it's so natural to not like another country's national anthem.

I stayed in Chicoutimi for a summer. Beautiful area. Trained in CFB Bagotville too. Hot Hot Summers.

Which...in some cases is good...and in some cases bad. When it's patriotism as propaganda (such as what's going on now in America), it's bad...but in the case of the American Revolution, and the Civil War (for the Union), and World War II, it's very, very good.

I'm going to assume that you're liberal or socialist. Would I be right in that assumption? Also, what sort of propaganda are you talking about?

I'm going to assume that you're liberal or socialist. Would I be right in that assumption? Also, what sort of propaganda are you talking about?
I consider myself left-leaning centrist.

And what I mean is when the administration of criticizing people of fully and completely without-questiong supporting the administration of being terrorist sympathisers and unpatriotic, when in fact distrust of the government is EXACTLY what America was founded on...


EDIT: And let me correct myself. It's not near as bad now, but I'm mainly thinking of what was going on shortly after the 9/11 attacks.

I consider myself left-leaning centrist.

And what I mean is when the administration of criticizing people of fully and completely without-questiong supporting the administration of being terrorist sympathisers and unpatriotic, when in fact distrust of the government is EXACTLY what America was founded on...

Either I'm to tired to understand what you mean or you typed the wrong word somewhere...

However, America is most definantly NOT a terrorist sympathizer or unpatriotic. American Liberals are unpatriotic. They constantly side with the enemy. For instance- while London is getting bombed by terrorists Dick Durbin (sp? I'm tired) is over at the white house saying that we're too mean to the terrorists down in Gitmo. What- did we overcook their honey-glazed chicked? Or perhaps their tennis courts aren't regulation. We should probably send more of the American taxpayer's money to those enemy combatants.

EDIT: Didn't see your edit. Would have been less harsh in my critisizm. I still disagree. I don't see how after the 9/11 attacks America was unpatriotic OR terrorist sympathizer.

I stayed in Chicoutimi for a summer. Beautiful area. Trained in CFB Bagotville too. Hot Hot Summers.
I'm glad you liked the place. :p
The Saguenay region isn't alway an easy place to stay: people are a bit difficult to reach sometimes (cold?), and the winters are among the coldest you can find.


Hmmmm...

I think patriotism may be also about the territory -- how we learn to love a place, its climate, its vegetation, rivers, natural wonders... and how we become part of this.

I think for example that people of Morocco wouldn't be the same people if their society had evolved in a different environment; in a cold climate, for instance. Our territory contributes to our culture much more than we imagine.

To a certain extent, we are made by the territory.

To a certain extent, we are made by the territory.

I only wish that the country did a better job at making some people.

Patriotism is for the weak!

I'm much more of an individualist, but I do have , what I beleive to be a better grasp of american history than the average american.
Which as everyone knows, the average american is ...sort of an idiot.

Patriotism is for the weak!

I'm much more of an individualist, but I do have , what I beleive to be a better grasp of american history than the average american.
Which as everyone knows, the average american is ...sort of an idiot.

Well, patriotism has little to do with how you live your personal life. It is mainly an appreciation of your country. Yes, the average american is an idiot but you have more money and less taxes than people in many other countries.

I was just interested in everyone's views on patriotism for their own country.

And I don't mean whether or not you approve of patriotism,etc.

But to me, as an American, it seems like Americans have an excellent grasp on their patriotism....between the excellent story we have in our revolutionary war to even the wealth of extremely patriotic songs (most of which we can thank JPSousa for)...

Do other nations of the world have things such as songs, color configurations, etc. that are simply dripping in patriotism for your nation, or is this largely a phenomenon unique to America?

1. My view of patriotism for American citizens (unique for us at least) is a perspective that real "Patriots" stand up for and would fight for the principles of the American Constitutional Republic if they are under threat from abroad or WITHIN (which happens to be where the biggest offenses and threats lie). In otherwords, dissent due to unrepublic actions is a mark of a real Patriot. Those who abhor the "Patriot Act" are real patriots.

2. Supporting your troops, being in the military, and being always pro-government isn't exactly patriotism cut and dry because that is easily described as nationalism and thinking your country is infallable. Being a soldier who fights to protect his republic and his people and will dissent to government actions if unConstitutional is patriotic.

3. The reason I see patriotism different from Americans is due in large part because of its creators were very suspicious of government and its ability to trample on rights. The most common theme among ALL the greatest of American patriots is the theme of protecting their civil liberties and guarenteeing their peoples' access to them by a Constitutional Republic government. You could be a bush loving/humping neo-con like that coulter chick who supports locking up that Padilla guy indefinitely, and all you would be really considered is nationalistic. Sorry ****ers. The founders demanded all American citizens be ensured what they viewed are basic human freedoms from a government. Otherwise, that government has no right to govern its people and either needs to be "altered or abolished". Proof? Well for one read their writings and one day have a look at the Declaration of Independence and Constitution/Bill of rights

Well.... is it wrong?

To sum it up in a word: Yes.

You are the victim of a pathetic education.

To sum it up in a word: Yes.

You are the victim of a pathetic education.
Heh, I noticed how he immediately dropped his claims after I showed him that I paid attention at least a couple days in my history class....as his claims couldn't've been farther from the truth.


And in your other post...one thing that you could add to the list of documents that really clearly define what true patriotism is would the the American soldier's oath...in which an American soldier swears loyalty, not to the president, but to the Constitution:

An American soldier's oath: "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

I am American, but not patriotic in the least. You could probably tell that from some of my other posts...

I am an unabated American patriot, and danged proud of it.

Our flag is horrible, before it was a lovely, deep blue colour, with a golden cross, now it looks like it has been sunbleached.
Our anthem is horrible, the lyrics doesn't represent us well. The melody inspires singing out of tune.
But I do love this country, I just think that our patriots more often than not misuse everything this country stands for.
Ever since the vikings we have been open to the world, embracing other cultures, they seem to think this is unswedish, unpatriotic.
I see myself as a patriot of the world, this planet is our mother, she provides for us, has a temper and she is wild at heart, just like humans.

I would consider myself a patriotic Australian.

I haven't seen a country that is as blatantly/overtly/aggressively patriotic as the USA. All the flags, hands on hearts, national anthem at every function/event, etc seems to me to be over the top.

I would consider myself a patriotic Australian.

I haven't seen a country that is as blatantly/overtly/aggressively patriotic as the USA. All the flags, hands on hearts, national anthem at every function/event, etc seems to me to be over the top.
I'm thinking that American patriotism is unique much the same as the uniqueness of our independence, as discussed on my thread concerning what people celebrated on the 4th of July, even if they weren't American (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=430418)... (and let's not take that discussion here...)

I am an American and I would do my duty to defend it agaisnt all enemies.

No harm in loving what is good in one's country, but patriotic much too often means ready to justify any criminal action of one's government/army/any other institution just because it's "us". Or despising other people because they're inferior to "us" or presumably "our" ennemies. More superficially, patriotism is often very ridiculous in its manifestations. Ever saw kids reciting the pledge of allegiance, ROFL? In my country, someone who holds a national flag in his garden is a far right lunatic; in the US it's just an American.

I'm thinking that American patriotism is unique much the same as the uniqueness of our independence, as discussed on my thread concerning what people celebrated on the 4th of July, even if they weren't American (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=430418)... (and let's not take that discussion here...)

It's a cultural thing, I'm not trying to have a go. Australians are generally less overt, more restrained & I think that's reflected in our style of patriotism. As is America's cultural personality in theirs.

It's a cultural thing, I'm not trying to have a go. Australians are generally less overt, more restrained & I think that's reflected in our style of patriotism. As is America's cultural personality in theirs.
I actually think that it is American patriotism that has morphed the rest of our culture. The reverse just doesn't make sense to me, as Americans have been largely patriotic since the birth of the nation...

I, and most other people I know (note that I tend to align myself with liberal people, so my view is probably biased) consider the American obsession with patriotism completely and utterly retarded. Sure, be proud of your history, but don't be proud of your government when it's terrible. As far as I can gather, whereas patriotism in most other countries is to the nation, in America, it's for the government.

I'm in complete agreement with Americai here. The truly patriotic and American thing to do is to question the government at every turn. If we let the government run unchecked we've completely lost sight of what the founding fathers stood for. Certain sections of the USA PATRIOT act, for example, are some of the most obscene, unamerican, and unpatriotic policies to ever be enacted into law in this great country. If people would realize that it's not just a bunch of whining liberals looking for an excuse to attack Bush, and that Sunset provisions in the law are undoubtedly and blatantly unconstitutional, and that they are indeed doing more harm than good in fighting the war on terror, they would realize for once in their lives that politics are far from black-and-white as many conservatives believe them to be (you're either with us or against us :rolleyes:).

The problem with the PATRIOT act is that the controversial parts do no good whatsoever. They're targeted at Muslim communities and are used to arrest what police see as "potential threats" to national security. The big problem with that is that Al-Qaeda is smarter than that. They know that police will likely arrest suspicious-looking men with long beards and turbans. They do everything they can to avoid filling the stereotypes that people think of Muslims. Look at the surveillance tapes of the 9/11 hijackers passing through security. They don't look like terrorists. They are cleanly shaven, with short hair, wearing glasses, nicely dressed, carrying bags over their shoulders. They look like successful businessmen. Any middle-eastern man working on Wall Street would look exactly the same.
Police don't just pick criminals up on the street. Detective work is not at all like what you see on Law & Order or CSI. People call the police and inform them of the whereabouts of criminals. It's how law enforcement works. If police could do all the work themselves through good-old-fashioned dectective work, they wouldn't need things like Amber Alert. Nor would they work so hard to get the support of the local community. But the PATRIOT act does law enforcement a great deal of harm. In order to prevent terrorism, police need the help of the Muslim community. If the police are picking up innocent people and detaining them in a prison cell without charging them of a crime, they alienate the rest of the community. People won't report suspicious activity if they're afraid of being arrested for being stereotypical Muslims themselves.

In short, be very careful when calling someone unpatriotic or unamerican, especially when that person opposes the government. You risk stepping into the realm of nationalism, and that's when you lose all your credibility.

EDIT: I also agree with The Mindset that everyone needs to recognize the history of America to truly know the country. Look through history. America hasn't exactly been the "good guys" very much. At all. I love my country very much, but I think one of the main reasons I love it so much is as a result of reform movements like the Civil Rights movements of the 1960s. I don't think I could love my country nearly as much if we still lived in a country where we had second-class citizens based purely on race.

And the only reason America is considered the great "free" country it is was that we were the first Capitalist nation. The American Revolution was the first Capitalist revolution in the world. The French Revolution was next, but then they sort of took a step back in the following century. Bragging about America being the most free country in the world is the equivalent of Soviets remembering the Revolution twice a year and using it as a basis to ostracize enemies of the state. If the founding fathers were around today, they would be the ones being accused of being "unpatriotic".

I, and most other people I know (note that I tend to align myself with liberal people, so my view is probably biased) consider the American obsession with patriotism completely and utterly retarded. Sure, be proud of your history, but don't be proud of your government when it's terrible. As far as I can gather, whereas patriotism in most other countries is to the nation, in America, it's for the government.
Actually...in America we do celebrate the system of Government that our founding fathers set up (not the current administration) and I fail to see what's so "retarded" about that...and I consider myself a left-leaning centrist


Marxonium...I hate to drag a discussion about the PATRIOT act into this thread...however, I'm interested as to some of the specifics...

Keep in mind, America's system is working in regards to the PATRIOT Act, and it is being amended, but some of the things that people are up in arms about are things that law enforcement ALREADY had been practicing for a significant time...

For instance, law enforcement ALWAYS had the ability to search (with a warrant from the court) without first informing the owner of the property until after the search was conducted...in this regard, the patriot act hasn't changed anything.

By the way, what does the PATRIOT Act and racial profiling have anything to do with each other?

The thing about partiotism is, it's blind.

In my opinion, you are born into a country, that's np achievement of your own, so no reason to be proud.

When you look around your country (ANY country, really), there are a number of achievements. Again, none of your own, so no reason for personal pride.
Patriotism, therefore, seems to be a group perspective rather than a source of individual pride. And, in fairness, you didn't choose to belong to that group, that was an accident when being born. All national groups include individuals I personally wouldn't want to identify with....
And so do all national histories include events I don't want to associate myself with.

Now, patriots claim to be proud of the achievements of their national group/country, but at the same time they refuse to feel ashamed for its shortcomings.

Whenever you point an American (just as an example here) to the darker sides of his history (Native Americans, slavery, concentration camps for Americans of Japanese descent during WW II), they will invariably point out that these had nothing to do with the country, that other countries did the same, that these were single incidents, etc.
When asked, what he is proud of, it will be the war of independence, the constitution, the founding fathers, etc. All things that other countries achieved as well, that were single incidents, that were the achievements of individuals...

That's why I don't like patriotism. It only looks on one side of a country.

Keep in mind, America's system is working in regards to the PATRIOT Act, and it is being amended, but some of the things that people are up in arms about are things that law enforcement ALREADY had been practicing for a significant time...

What the PATRIOT act does is it gives the executive branch more power to do what the government has done with restrainment since 1978.

For instance, law enforcement ALWAYS had the ability to search (with a warrant from the court) without first informing the owner of the property until after the search was conducted...in this regard, the patriot act hasn't changed anything.

In 1978, a secret system of courts was set up by FISA designed to issue search warrants in matters of national security. What it does is allows high-ranking executive branch officials to come to a judge who is a member of the FISA court and ask for a warrant. The thing that's different about this warrant is that it can be issued on speculative evidence, or mere speculation at all, and it allows the law enforcement to search the premises in question without notifying the owners. During the cold war, there were several dozens of these secret warrants issued. Under Bush, over a hundred have been issued. No FISA court has ever rejected a request for a warrant. What the PATRIOT act does is changes where the warrants can be issued. Instead of being used on spies, it can be used on anyone the law enforcement "feels is a threat to national security". This means pretty much anyone Rumsfeld or Bush feel like, and they're not saying whether they've prevented any terrorist attacks using the FISA courts because they're not admitting that they use the FISA courts. Nor do they present evidence showing the guilt of any of the people they've detained. I don't want to turn this into a PATRIOT act debate, but if we're talking about patriotism and nationalism, you'll find the real patriots opposing the PATRIOT act and the nationalists supporting it without knowing why so many people oppose it.

By the way, what does the PATRIOT Act and racial profiling have anything to do with each other?

The PATRIOT act is being used to arrest entire groups of people for no reason at all. Remember right after 9/11 when the government boastfully claimed to have arrested ~800 people who "had ties with terrorists"? We never heard any more about them because people started asking why they weren't being charged with crimes. The Justice Department used the PATRIOT act with the good intentions of preventing a terrorist attack, but in actuality it's racially profiling and serves only to isolate the Muslim community from law enforcement. The police need the help of the Muslim community if they're to prevent another 9/11.

Patriotism? Kind of ridiculous. I've never left the city I grew up in for longer than a month, and so why should I have any feeling toward another territory miles away from me because it happens to be under the same government?

Say, you were born and raised in a town in Alaska. How in the world can you be proud of the accomplishments of dead white men from the East Coast down south? The "Founding Fathers" probably couldn't tell where Alaska was if they tried.

And say, you're from somewhere in Newfoundland. Are you supposed to feel a sense of joy and accomplishment on Canada Day? Heck, most Canadian provinces weren't even part of Canada when they established Dominion Day (and most Canadians from back then and their children are dead now).

As for fighting for the air you breathe and the soil you grow up on, why are British Columbians obligated to share patriotic feelings with the Ontarians, since Ontario and BC are both part of Canada but nearly a world apart? Shouldn't that imply we only need to feel connected to our homes and at best neighbourhoods? And on the other hand, most major Canadian cities lie right on the border. Why are Canadians not practicing patriotism and fight for the air they breathe that's carried over from Buffalo and Seattle?

Patriotism is ridiculous and arbitrary.

Also, try to read this article: China's biggest export to the US (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/dust_storm_010514.html) . Does this mean Americans ought to become Chinese patriots now?

Jerusalem, C. Hubert H. Parry (1916)

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold:
Bring me my arrows of desire:
Bring me my spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire.

I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land

Is it just me, or does this song advocate the killing of heathens in England? ;)

Is it just me, or does this song advocate the killing of heathens in England? ;)

Yes, but it is a very catchy song nonetheless

Yes, but it is a very catchy song nonetheless

:D Well, I'd better sharpen my pitchfork and go kill me some heathens...oh wait...I am one...bugger...

First off, the American Civil War was initiated when a civilian ordered a brigade of Conferedate (the south) troops to attack a Union (the north) fort...I'm not entirely sure why the troops followed the civilian's orders...but that's beside the point.

And if you knew anything about American history, you'd know that Abraham Lincoln (and the rest of the north...and much of the world) was blatantly racist. Abraham fought the Civil War in order to preserve the union. Eventually, it led to him drafting the Emancipation Proclamation (and whether he really had the power to do that is still debated), which essentially did nothing anyway. AFTER the war, the United States congress passed ammendments to end slavery.
So you confuse me. :rolleyes: I thought you said in an earlier post that there was no war and now you say there was. I'm not from the US but even I know the significance of the Mason-Dixie line

In 1978, a secret system of courts was set up by FISA designed to issue search warrants in matters of national security.Well, gee. Sounds like the problem is more with FISA, then doesn't it?

Thanks for not vetoing it, Jimmy!

That depends. Are you referring to a war in American history? If so, then yes, it's wrong. There was no such war in American history.
Yes, you did say that.

Jerusalem, C. Hubert H. Parry (1916)
Funny coincidence - while reading this post I was listening to the version by Bruce Dickinson (Iron Maiden singer) who did a version on his Chemical Wedding record. The actual words are a poem by William Blake.

The thing about partiotism is, it's blind. In my opinion, you are born into a country, that's no achievement of your own, so no reason to be proud.

My sentiments exactly. If I look at my ancestry I might have been born all over Northern Europe (West & East). By some coincidence I ended up where I did. I feel not particular allegiance to my country as such. There are a lot places that are worse and none I could think of that are actually better. There are a lot of countries that IMHO are equally good and a few where I could imagine living in.

So patriotism for me is not a topic. In fact, seeing how patriotism is often abused, I think that, on the whole, the negative aspects of patriotism outweigh any positive ones (not that I could think of many ;) )

My sentiments exactly. If I look at my ancestry I might have been born all over Northern Europe (West & East). By some coincidence I ended up where I did. I feel not particular allegiance to my country as such. There are a lot places that are worse and none I could think of that are actually better. There are a lot of countries that IMHO are equally good and a few where I could imagine living in.

So patriotism for me is not a topic. In fact, seeing how patriotism is often abused, I think that, on the whole, the negative aspects of patriotism outweigh any positive ones (not that I could think of many ;) )


I can't think of any really... what is patriotism?
You are proud on your country. So, what is your country? The land? Why would you be proud on that? The people? What makes them any different from people anywhere else? The history? There's always as much to be ashamed about as there is to be proud on.... So, what, exactly?
And what is it good for?

I can't think of any really... what is patriotism?
You are proud on your country. So, what is your country? The land? Why would you be proud on that? The people? What makes them any different from people anywhere else? The history? There's always as much to be ashamed about as there is to be proud on.... So, what, exactly?
And what is it good for?
Weeeeeeeeell, one could argue (not that I am ;) ) that if you feel proud of the positive achievements of your country, you might feel compelled to add to those achievements not just for yourself but the "greater good" of your country.

But since the whole concept of patriotism is slightly alien to me, I would not dare to speculate further. I do think, however, that most people who are fiercly patriotic just don't have any achievements of their own. This is based on personal observations

Weeeeeeeeell, one could argue (not that I am ;) ) that if you feel proud of the positive achievements of your country, you might feel compelled to add to those achievements not just for yourself but the "greater good" of your country.

But since the whole concept of patriotism is slightly alien to me, I would not dare to speculate further. I do think, however, that most people who are fiercly patriotic just don't have any achievements of their own. This is based on personal observations

Hmm... first off, people who feel like that generally have a very strange and sometimes disturbing view about what's best for "the country".
Second, why do it for the greater good of you country exclusively? If anything, do it for the greater good of mankind.

Third... I think I know what you're talking about. I met some of those as well.... :)

I was just interested in everyone's views on patriotism for their own country.

And I don't mean whether or not you approve of patriotism,etc.

But to me, as an American, it seems like Americans have an excellent grasp on their patriotism....between the excellent story we have in our revolutionary war to even the wealth of extremely patriotic songs (most of which we can thank JPSousa for)...

Do other nations of the world have things such as songs, color configurations, etc. that are simply dripping in patriotism for your nation, or is this largely a phenomenon unique to America?

I tend to side with Paine: "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."

You can't choose the country you are born in, so its foolish to be proud of it.


You know something that really strange? Me. Im actually proud of my country.whoa... :)


When i say 'proud of my country', I am talking about the country. Do not confuse with the government or its policies.



Another question for anyone: Is it wrong to love my homeland?

I forget who said it, and i've been looking online to find it but can't, but there was a quote I always enjoy that said (paraphrased):

"Patriotism means to love your country, not your president".

That's how I feel, more or less. America has made some things in the world here and there, and I am proud of the freedoms we have, but I'm not proud of a government that shows up to a conference and pukes all over the Kyoto treaty and calls it a peaceful comprimise.

I also think that Patriotism, at least to me, does not mean that your country is better than everyone elses. Just that you are glad you live here and proud of your history, while still not blind as to follow whatever your leaders say, or realize your country has some dark parts in it's history (and ever country does). Patriotism these days seems to mean something different now: Ignore all faults by your country, think whatever the president wants you too, and get rid of your freedom to protest the government."

When this country was founded, be it by stoned slave-owning misogynists, they made sure that the right to protest the government, say what you want about them, and throw whoever you think is doing a bad job out. They had lived under the British rule and now wanted a say, democratically, in their land. Whatever happened to that? People say speaking out against what your leaders are doing is unamerican, and you must not love your country.

Exscuse me, whatever happened to protesting your government, and how they are running your country, because you love your country? It used to be unamerican to NOT speak up against it. Whats the deal?

In all fairness, it is just as patriotic to protest back at the protesters, and tell them you think the government is doing a good job.

You know something that really strange? Me. Im actually proud of my country.whoa... :)


When i say 'proud of my country', I am talking about the country. Do not confuse with the government or its policies.



Another question for anyone: Is it wrong to love my homeland?

It' not wrong, of course not. For all I care you can love Blue Cheese, Dustin Hoffmann and Labrador dogs. The question is, why give that love/hobby/obsession a seperate name? What's the point of it all? And why make it political?

I think the phrase "having an excellent grasp" on your patriotism is a silly remark.

I agree.

I tend to side with Paine: "It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government."

You gotta love Thomas Paine. :D

why give that love/hobby/obsession a seperate name?

Why give anything a name?
Love: Romance
Hobby: Cycling
Obsession: Workaholic

What's the point of it all?

Personally, it makes me feel good to be proud of where I came from and to be proud of my nation. It's that simple.

And why make it political?

In a free society, the politicians, and thus politics, will reflect the passions of the people who elect them. If the people prize patriotism than the politicians will be patriotic and will compete to show who is more patriotic.

Honestly, patriotism is just a nicer name for nationalism. And as far as nationalism is concerned, I side with A. Einstein:

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

I appreciate my country and my government, but no more or no less than any other functional socialist democracy. I obviosly cannot be proud of it, becuase I am in no way responsible of it's origins.

What the PATRIOT act does is it gives the executive branch more power to do what the government has done with restrainment since 1978.

Then I have to ask you to quote specific parts of the text of the PATRIOT Act and show what in the actual text is so bad. It is not that I dislike criticism of the PATRIOT Act, it's simply that I don't necessarily know enough about it and haven't really seen exactly what the big deal is about...and the only way anyone is going to convince me is if they're using the actual document's text and not just stories about the document's supposed power.

So you confuse me. :rolleyes: I thought you said in an earlier post that there was no war and now you say there was. I'm not from the US but even I know the significance of the Mason-Dixie line
He claimed that the North attacked the South for the purpose of freeing the slaves.

It's completely wrong. The South made the first attack. The North fought the war for the preservation of the Union. And the Emancipation Proclamation didn't do anything except rally the abolitionists behind Lincoln, because it sounded like it was going to free the slaves...which is untrue.

Who was it that said that '' Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel''? I bet that he had an essential grasp of patriotism.patriotism has being the rallying cry in many wars

Samuel Johnson, I believe.

Personally, it makes me feel good to be proud of where I came from and to be proud of my nation. It's that simple.

But... where do you come from?
You see, originally we are all from East Africa. Over thousands of years, our ancestors settled everywhere on the planet, constantly moving around. From the early Modern Age on (sorry, no records before that), parts of my family came from Sweden, Turkey, the Baltics and Northern Italy. Those are all people I never met.
The people I did meet (great-grandparents, grandparents, parents) came from the Czech republic, Austria, France and Poland.
I myself grew up in Germany, lived in Canada for a while and am now living in Ireland.

So... you tell me. What country am I to be proud of?



In a free society, the politicians, and thus politics, will reflect the passions of the people who elect them. If the people prize patriotism than the politicians will be patriotic and will compete to show who is more patriotic.

In what way will that change their behaviour? They'll still try to make make as much money as possible and retire before they're being found out...

I'm in complete agreement with Americai here. The truly patriotic and American thing to do is to question the government at every turn. If we let the government run unchecked we've completely lost sight of what the founding fathers stood for. Certain sections of the USA PATRIOT act, for example, are some of the most obscene, unamerican, and unpatriotic policies to ever be enacted into law in this great country. If people would realize that it's not just a bunch of whining liberals looking for an excuse to attack Bush, and that Sunset provisions in the law are undoubtedly and blatantly unconstitutional, and that they are indeed doing more harm than good in fighting the war on terror, they would realize for once in their lives that politics are far from black-and-white as many conservatives believe them to be (you're either with us or against us :rolleyes:).

The problem with the PATRIOT act is that the controversial parts do no good whatsoever. They're targeted at Muslim communities and are used to arrest what police see as "potential threats" to national security. The big problem with that is that Al-Qaeda is smarter than that. They know that police will likely arrest suspicious-looking men with long beards and turbans. They do everything they can to avoid filling the stereotypes that people think of Muslims. Look at the surveillance tapes of the 9/11 hijackers passing through security. They don't look like terrorists. They are cleanly shaven, with short hair, wearing glasses, nicely dressed, carrying bags over their shoulders. They look like successful businessmen. Any middle-eastern man working on Wall Street would look exactly the same.
Police don't just pick criminals up on the street. Detective work is not at all like what you see on Law & Order or CSI. People call the police and inform them of the whereabouts of criminals. It's how law enforcement works. If police could do all the work themselves through good-old-fashioned dectective work, they wouldn't need things like Amber Alert. Nor would they work so hard to get the support of the local community. But the PATRIOT act does law enforcement a great deal of harm. In order to prevent terrorism, police need the help of the Muslim community. If the police are picking up innocent people and detaining them in a prison cell without charging them of a crime, they alienate the rest of the community. People won't report suspicious activity if they're afraid of being arrested for being stereotypical Muslims themselves.

In short, be very careful when calling someone unpatriotic or unamerican, especially when that person opposes the government. You risk stepping into the realm of nationalism, and that's when you lose all your credibility.

EDIT: I also agree with The Mindset that everyone needs to recognize the history of America to truly know the country. Look through history. America hasn't exactly been the "good guys" very much. At all. I love my country very much, but I think one of the main reasons I love it so much is as a result of reform movements like the Civil Rights movements of the 1960s. I don't think I could love my country nearly as much if we still lived in a country where we had second-class citizens based purely on race.

And the only reason America is considered the great "free" country it is was that we were the first Capitalist nation. The American Revolution was the first Capitalist revolution in the world. The French Revolution was next, but then they sort of took a step back in the following century. Bragging about America being the most free country in the world is the equivalent of Soviets remembering the Revolution twice a year and using it as a basis to ostracize enemies of the state. If the founding fathers were around today, they would be the ones being accused of being "unpatriotic".


When has America been the bad guys?

I couldn't care less about patriotism! I love all good, moral and righteous people, regardless of where they were born. GOD bless!

But... where do you come from?

I was referring to more recent ancestors. The ones who risked their lives in defense of the good ol’ USA and, ultimately, freedom world-wide. I am proud to be an American, there isn’t much more than that. It is part of who I am.

So... you tell me. What country am I to be proud of?

Honestly, I could care less about your patriotism, or lack thereof. I was just explaining why I felt the way I did.

In what way will that change their behaviour? They'll still try to make make as much money as possible and retire before they're being found out...

A healthy distrust of government. So you do have redeemable qualities after all. :D

When has America been the bad guys?

Where to begin....

- Attempted genocide of Native Americans (multipe incidents)
- Slavery
- Segregation
- Concentration camps for Americans of Japanese desent during WW II
- Chemical warfare in Vietnam
- Invading Iraq without provocation....

Just a few really outstanding bits....

Samuel Johnson, I believe.

Correct...

I was referring to more recent ancestors. The ones who risked their lives in defense of the good ol’ USA and, ultimately, freedom world-wide. I am proud to be an American, there isn’t much more than that. It is part of who I am.



Funny you should mention... I have one grandfather who fought on the side of the allies in WW II and one who fought on German side.
The one who fought on German side, defending the Nazi regime, is now a rather decent guy, friendly, helpful, caring. Keeps blaming himself for his stupitity back when he was 16 and keeps his distance from anything patriotic or nationalistic.
The one who fought on allied side turn out an egoistic bastard, beating his wife and kids, srewing people over on business deals on a regular basis, treating people he reagards as "below him" as dirt. But he claims to have ultimately fought for Germany, that he is patriotic and did the right thing.

What does patriotism say about a person?

What does patriotism say about a person?

Patriotism can not, in and of itself, say anything about a person. You must look at the individual. Also, I understand the natural fear and/or distrust that many Europeans have for patriotism, and you must realize it is different for us Americans. Patriotism almost destroyed Europe, but it saved the US.

Where to begin....

- Attempted genocide of Native Americans (multipe incidents)
- Slavery
- Segregation
- Concentration camps for Americans of Japanese desent during WW II
- Chemical warfare in Vietnam
- Invading Iraq without provocation....

Just a few really outstanding bits....

Actually, we were just reclaiming what was ours. Europeans were here long before the native Americans ever were. Then the Native Americans came up and slaughtered all of the europeans. So we had every right to do what was best for us.
Slavery? The Europeans had slavery. It was terrible, yes, but back then it was common. It wasn't seen as bad. But I'll give that to you.
Segregation goes with above.
They werent concentration camps. We didn't gas them all to death.
It's war. People get hurt. And if you plan on using this argument, your final one is bullshit. Unprovoked? He gassed millions of his own people. And you thought Americans were bad.

Also, what about Hitler or Stalin? What abount the stuff down in Cuba? China? What about the Soviet Union? Americas little mess-ups pale in comparison to those.

What is important in your life? The particular piece of territory that you were born on, or the people around you? I say that the people are far more important than the political nation you happen to have been born belonging to. Yes there are concepts and ideas such as freedom and democracy that you may hold as being important to your life, but these are not your country. If you love your country now, when it has these qualities, will you still love it in a possible future when it does not? If not then it is not the country that you love, but the concepts and ideas themselves.

Patriotism is essentially mistaken as a nation can change. A love of freedom is not.

Actually, we were just reclaiming what was ours. Europeans were here long before the native Americans ever were. Then the Native Americans came up and slaughtered all of the europeans. So we had every right to do what was best for us.
Slavery? The Europeans had slavery. It was terrible, yes, but back then it was common. It wasn't seen as bad. But I'll give that to you.
Segregation goes with above.
They werent concentration camps. We didn't gas them all to death.
It's war. People get hurt. And if you plan on using this argument, your final one is bullshit. Unprovoked? He gassed millions of his own people. And you thought Americans were bad.

Also, what about Hitler or Stalin? What abount the stuff down in Cuba? China? What about the Soviet Union? Americas little mess-ups pale in comparison to those.


"Concentration Camp" doesn't mean gassing people, it means "imprisoning them in camps under appaling conditions. If you never heard about that part of your history, I suggest you read up on that.

The fact that another country violates human rights is no sufficient reason to attack it. I haven't seen many US troops in Ruanda back in the 90s.

The fact that Native Americans killed European settlers is no justification for killing thousands in return. That wasn't justice, it wasn't even revenge. It was genocide.

The fact that slavery was the norm back then doesn't make it right. It's as simple as that. The fact that hating Jews was the norm over centuries doesn't make it right, either.

I never said the US history was only negative. I said if you want to be proud on your history, you also have to be ashamed about it, otherwise you are a hypocrite.
If I look at German achievements in history, there's a lot to be proud of. Inventors, thinkers, writers, musicians, painters, great military people, great social thinkers. But I cannot be proud on them and at the same time ignore the witch hunts of the 17th and 18th century, the religious wars or the Nazi era. It's as simple as that.

What is important in your life? The particular piece of territory that you were born on, or the people around you? I say that the people are far more important than the political nation you happen to have been born belonging to. Yes there are concepts and ideas such as freedom and democracy that you may hold as being important to your life, but these are not your country. If you love your country now, when it has these qualities, will you still love it in a possible future when it does not? If not then it is not the country that you love, but the concepts and ideas themselves.

Patriotism is essentially mistaken as a nation can change. A love of freedom is not.

Interesting. I must admit that when I surge with patriotic pride, it is the original ideas about freedom put forth by the Founding Fathers that I am celebrating. I am not celebrating what it has become, a bureaucracy chocked nightmare with exorbitant taxes and way to much government involvement in our daily lives. If the nation continues on its present course you will not find me a patriot in sixty years. However, it is my hope that my generation will be able to rescue this nation from its current course.

Actually, we were just reclaiming what was ours. Europeans were here long before the native Americans ever were. Then the Native Americans came up and slaughtered all of the europeans. So we had every right to do what was best for us.
Slavery? The Europeans had slavery. It was terrible, yes, but back then it was common. It wasn't seen as bad. But I'll give that to you.
Segregation goes with above.
They werent concentration camps. We didn't gas them all to death.
It's war. People get hurt. And if you plan on using this argument, your final one is bullshit. Unprovoked? He gassed millions of his own people. And you thought Americans were bad.

Also, what about Hitler or Stalin? What abount the stuff down in Cuba? China? What about the Soviet Union? Americas little mess-ups pale in comparison to those.

WTF?

That is, simply put, inane and disgusting.

As a proud American, I find your apologetics repulsive.

Patriotism almost destroyed Europe, but it saved the US.

How did it nearly destroy europe? the world wars?
How did it save the US? independence?

To answer the original question: I am not at all patriotic. I don;t really understand the concept, how can people be patriotic? why? To be more proud of my country, just because I was born here seems egoistic and illogical. I am proud of some of the things which British people have done, but equally I am proud of what some German or American people have done. The important thing is person, not nationality.

There's a quote which may rile some people, but I'll quote it, expand on it and say what I think of it anyway. It'll be good for me, may be I'll be able to understand why people are patriotic and what it means and what they mean by it, or maybe I'll convince people not to be, but I doubt it. Anyways:

"Patriotism is nationalism is jingoism"

From hyperddictionary.com
Patriotism: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it
Nationalism: [n] love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it
[n] the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other
[n] the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals
[n] the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination
Jingoism:[n] fanatical patriotism
[n] an appeal intended to arouse patriotic emotions

As you can see, there's definately a link between them and saying that they're the same thing isn;t really a stretch.

There are things I do love and would sacrifice things for, humanity (as a whole and a race, not just those people in my country), the environment, and even, controversially, religion (i wouldn't impose it on others but i would sacrifice for my right to have it).

That probably sums up my views on this, lets see where this discussion leads...

How did it nearly destroy europe? the world wars?
How did it save the US? independence?

I am speaking of World War II in both instances. German patriotism nearly destroyed Europe. While American patriotism united us and gave us the resolve to fight our enemies.

I was just interested in everyone's views on patriotism for their own country.

And I don't mean whether or not you approve of patriotism,etc.

But to me, as an American, it seems like Americans have an excellent grasp on their patriotism....between the excellent story we have in our revolutionary war to even the wealth of extremely patriotic songs (most of which we can thank JPSousa for)...

Do other nations of the world have things such as songs, color configurations, etc. that are simply dripping in patriotism for your nation, or is this largely a phenomenon unique to America?

Patriotism is not unique to America, I think that is something that exists in most countries. It is different in each country though.

In Wales, people are very proud of their country, but I think it depends more if you are in the North or South how they define the country. In the North, it has more to do with the Welsh language in my opinion, I know people of the North that have treated me more Welsh for speaking Welsh than some of my friends from the South who can't do much more than say hello and ask for a pint in Welsh. In the South, I think that it is more defined as being not English. The language is not really option to define as Welsh because there is only a minority of Welsh speakers there, especially in the more eastern parts. The same goes for the London Welsh I knew, I remember teaching one of them the actual words to the national anthem, which is in Welsh. I think despite that there is a real attachment to the country, which you really see when the Welsh national team plays.

I think that in France, the form of patroitism is different as well. I don't think that is so much as defined as not being another, but to the French culture and language. As Charles de Gaulle said, "Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first." Sometimes it seems to me that in France that no one is more obsessed about what it means to be French than the French. I don't really recall this debates when I have been in other countries. While that the French don't wear things that would be seen as symbols of their nations, like the seemingly millions of Welsh rugby shirts or the Americans wearing anything with an American flag on it, they think about it more with all the books, TV shows, political debates, etc. devoted to the subject in one way or another.

No harm in loving what is good in one's country, but patriotic much too often means ready to justify any criminal action of one's government/army/any other institution just because it's "us". Or despising other people because they're inferior to "us" or presumably "our" ennemies. More superficially, patriotism is often very ridiculous in its manifestations. Ever saw kids reciting the pledge of allegiance, ROFL? In my country, someone who holds a national flag in his garden is a far right lunatic; in the US it's just an American.

Biggest reasons is because you mostly identified NATIONALISM with patriotism (as I underlined for you) which in general means one's love for one's country. For Americans I prefer to have us adopt a different definition as to specifically protect its traits as a republic and a freedom loving/enjoying people.

I, and most other people I know (note that I tend to align myself with liberal people, so my view is probably biased) consider the American obsession with patriotism completely and utterly retarded. Sure, be proud of your history, but don't be proud of your government when it's terrible. As far as I can gather, whereas patriotism in most other countries is to the nation, in America, it's for the government.

It isn't retarded. Especially if we modify what we define as patriotism to mean that we do NOT approve of a government that has become unconstitutional and contrary to its purpose. Don't be "liberal"; be enlightened. And actually learn some American history. Specifically its founding.

Whenever you point an American (just as an example here) to the darker sides of his history (Native Americans, slavery, concentration camps for Americans of Japanese descent during WW II), they will invariably point out that these had nothing to do with the country, that other countries did the same, that these were single incidents, etc.
When asked, what he is proud of, it will be the war of independence, the constitution, the founding fathers, etc. All things that other countries achieved as well, that were single incidents, that were the achievements of individuals...

That's why I don't like patriotism. It only looks on one side of a country.

Excuse me, I will NOT point out that they had nothing to do with the country. Slavery was done. Unconstituional concentration camps were done, and genocide of the Native American people were done. I consider myself the one of the biggest patriots around and I AM AMERICAN. You and your silly argument have been disproven.

Patriotism? Kind of ridiculous. I've never left the city I grew up in for longer than a month, and so why should I have any feeling toward another territory miles away from me because it happens to be under the same government?

Say, you were born and raised in a town in Alaska. How in the world can you be proud of the accomplishments of dead white men from the East Coast down south? The "Founding Fathers" probably couldn't tell where Alaska was if they tried.

Your ridiculous. A person who was born in Alaska has a duty to his community to be a advocate to continue a Republican form of government that ensures he, his future family members, and his community enjoys the same liberties that have been guarrenteed to him as a citizen of the United States. He must employ the right sense of patriotism to keep those freedoms. Otherwise, he shouldn't complain if he ends up in China for a job offer and ends up in a situation where all his freedoms he once given disappear.

In all fairness, it is just as patriotic to protest back at the protesters, and tell them you think the government is doing a good job.

That isn't patriotism. That is freedom of speech. Patriotism is asking for constructive criticism and giving constructive criticism to benefit the society.

Honestly, patriotism is just a nicer name for nationalism. And as far as nationalism is concerned, I side with A. Einstein:

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

I appreciate my country and my government, but no more or no less than any other functional socialist democracy. I obviosly cannot be proud of it, becuase I am in no way responsible of it's origins.

Patriotism =/= Nationalism for Americans. Simply because we need a way to justify good criticism of our government. And doing that by being hateful instead of doing it out of patriotism isn't going to help us achieve ****, son.

When has America been the bad guys?

1. Native American genocide instead of intergration/co-habitation.

2. Slave owning/Racist aspects of of its social groups.

3. Unconstitutional acts infringing on its people's rights (Japanese American concentration camps, Unconstituional Iraq/Korean/Vietnam war, and etc)

Basicly the first two were just wrong from MY moral point.

Two and three were invalidating/bypassing certain sacred American beliefs and text.

I couldn't care less about patriotism! I love all good, moral and righteous people, regardless of where they were born. GOD bless!

Right.. what does that have to do with patriotism being bad?

Funny you should mention... I have one grandfather who fought on the side of the allies in WW II and one who fought on German side.
The one who fought on German side, defending the Nazi regime, is now a rather decent guy, friendly, helpful, caring. Keeps blaming himself for his stupitity back when he was 16 and keeps his distance from anything patriotic or nationalistic.
The one who fought on allied side turn out an egoistic bastard, beating his wife and kids, srewing people over on business deals on a regular basis, treating people he reagards as "below him" as dirt. But he claims to have ultimately fought for Germany, that he is patriotic and did the right thing.

What does patriotism say about a person?

So I and most real patriotic Americans going to be a wife and child beater and immoral person from your point.

Interesting. I must admit that when I surge with patriotic pride, it is the original ideas about freedom put forth by the Founding Fathers that I am celebrating. I am not celebrating what it has become, a bureaucracy chocked nightmare with exorbitant taxes and way to much government involvement in our daily lives. If the nation continues on its present course you will not find me a patriot in sixty years. However, it is my hope that my generation will be able to rescue this nation from its current course.

Actually, you would still be a patriot from my opinion. You would just be a patriot in rebellion. Let me as a fellow patriot give you advice. Learn business. Become wildly successful and make as much money as you can. You can make changes from this angle much more effectively if you learn more. Furthermore, don't throw your money at D.C. Throw it in local communities with the intent to saturate your community with anti-government/pro-constitutional beliefs and form allies. Patriotic allies such as myself.

I don;t really understand the concept, how can people be patriotic? why? To be more proud of my country, just because I was born here seems egoistic and illogical. I am proud of some of the things which British people have done, but equally I am proud of what some German or American people have done. The important thing is person, not nationality.

There's a quote which may rile some people, but I'll quote it, expand on it and say what I think of it anyway. It'll be good for me, may be I'll be able to understand why people are patriotic and what it means and what they mean by it, or maybe I'll convince people not to be, but I doubt it. Anyways:

"Patriotism is nationalism is jingoism"

From hyperddictionary.com
Patriotism: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it
Nationalism: [n] love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it
[n] the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other
[n] the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals
[n] the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination
Jingoism:[n] fanatical patriotism
[n] an appeal intended to arouse patriotic emotions

As you can see, there's definately a link between them and saying that they're the same thing isn;t really a stretch.

There are things I do love and would sacrifice things for, humanity (as a whole and a race, not just those people in my country), the environment, and even, controversially, religion (i wouldn't impose it on others but i would sacrifice for my right to have it).

That probably sums up my views on this, lets see where this discussion leads...

Patriotism doesn't mean the same for many Americans as it does for the british. I feel there is a NECESSITY for Americans to associate our willingness to follow our nations founding principles with patriotism. As a result, THIS is what I declare what American patriotism really is. Why? Because we need to make sure we don't allow our government and our politicians to do whatever in the name of patriotism that could be detrimental to our Republics principles. Therefore, THIS is why Americans need patriotism. Otherwise our government will become even worse because people would be no different than you who couldn't change anything as an American because your so apathetic to its people/community/nation.

Patriotism is not unique to America, I think that is something that exists in most countries. It is different in each country though.

American patriotism = **** the government if it ****s with our civil liberties, principles, Republic form of government, and our Constitution.

Anything else is just some people being nationalistic which is unfortunately rabid.

Well, I myself think it is stupid to hang on to the concept of the "nation" when everything points towards humanity abandoning the concept.

Indeed, you don't get to choose where you are born, and thus it is not an achievement one can be proud of.

"Nationalism" is a scourge. It destroyed Europe twice, and would do so again if set free. The EU is an important factor in stopping that from happening. And that is the only place where I could feel proud: The EU and what it stands for.

Now to America...oh boy. America has done as much bullshit in its' existance as three other countries put together (say...Chad, Tonga and Liechtenstein), mainly because it has been in a position to do so.
The things Americans are most proud of are of course not unique, nor special. Just one example would be the form of government. The federal system was copied from the Seven Indian Nations of the Great Lakes by Ben Franklin. The same goes for pretty much everything else - it's been done before.
That is not meant as an insult (although some will invariably take it that way), but a fact that one would do well to keep in the back of one's head.

American "Patriotism" (which I don't see to be any different from Nationalism - seeing the type of people that are being called "unpatriotic") usually focuses on the belief that the USA is somehow the pinnacle of Human Development, that its' politics and society are perfect, and that it would be desirable for everyone else to copy it.
Such a belief is ignorant and often insulting.

And then regarding Patriotism as readiness to criticise the Government - the Iraq war (though I hate to bring it up once more) is an excellent example. People knew they were being forcefed what amounted to horseshit. You cannot tell me that 250 million people were too stupid to acknowledge that.
And even if they were, it was "Patriotism" that made them ignore the rest of the international community on this important matter.
There must have been someone in America who would've been "patriotic" enough to stand up and influence people to say "NO". (Seeing how US-ians have a "better grasp" on Patriotism...). But there wasn't.
And the reason is that Patriotism is indeed Nationalism. There is no longer a difference, if there ever was one.

Honestly, patriotism is just a nicer name for nationalism. And as far as nationalism is concerned, I side with A. Einstein:

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

I appreciate my country and my government, but no more or no less than any other functional socialist democracy. I obviosly cannot be proud of it, becuase I am in no way responsible of it's origins.

As states before; I side more with Paine on the issue:

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government...."

It's not, really, in the "Enlightenment" sense "nationalism" in disguise. It's an ideal to protect and defend "the people" you live with; even from, if necessary, the government which is trying to assert over them.

Even if the people try to hand powers to the government; I will argue and fight against it; because the duty is to ensure "the people" themselves are protected; and remain the source and end of all authority (including the government choosen by them)... It's a sense of recognizing the dangers of too much autocratic control; too much tyrany, too much of anything opposed to the liberty and freedoms of the people... Both in whole, and individually...

Then I have to ask you to quote specific parts of the text of the PATRIOT Act and show what in the actual text is so bad. It is not that I dislike criticism of the PATRIOT Act, it's simply that I don't necessarily know enough about it and haven't really seen exactly what the big deal is about...and the only way anyone is going to convince me is if they're using the actual document's text and not just stories about the document's supposed power.

Problems I have, both with the Patriotic Act, and other such operations in general:

1. The Patiot Act afforded, not just more power to the executive (first; Laws canot grant power to the executive; powers are deliniated in government by the constitution (which exists suprerior); thus transfer of power, legitamately, needs to be done by amendment; not legislation)...

2. It afforded more power to FISA (Foreign Intelligence Service Act); whereby FISA courts (which are classified) can issue classified warrants..... Basically allowing, under the guise of law; for the FBI/CIA to enter into and search homes, and conduct arrests, without presentment (no presentment, because the warran is secret).... Secret Warrants, issued by Secret Courts, to cunduct Secret Arrests, and Secret Seizures... Sounds like something out of Nazi Germany... But it's in-fact happening here in the states.... Under the guise of legality as well...

This is allowed to happen, because people have effectively (as a whole) overturned the entire constitution in their head... No longer are we living in a system where the governments powers are limited by the constitution; and the people enjoy rights enumerated by inclusivitity, and existing in exclusivity non-enumerated via the common law.... But in a system whereby government is seen to possess all powers except those which it is denied by the Constitution.... It's really a bad system, and a bad practive; a bad ideology; perpetuated by a people who are too weak, or too scared to re-assert their claims to Supremecy over their servant (the government); and have subjected themselves to enslavement by their own servant...

Problems I have, both with the Patriotic Act, and other such operations in general:

1. The Patiot Act afforded, not just more power to the executive (first; Laws canot grant power to the executive; powers are deliniated in government by the constitution (which exists suprerior); thus transfer of power, legitamately, needs to be done by amendment; not legislation)...

2. It afforded more power to FISA (Foreign Intelligence Service Act); whereby FISA courts (which are classified) can issue classified warrants..... Basically allowing, under the guise of law; for the FBI/CIA to enter into and search homes, and conduct arrests, without presentment (no presentment, because the warran is secret).... Secret Warrants, issued by Secret Courts, to cunduct Secret Arrests, and Secret Seizures... Sounds like something out of Nazi Germany... But it's in-fact happening here in the states.... Under the guise of legality as well...

This is allowed to happen, because people have effectively (as a whole) overturned the entire constitution in their head... No longer are we living in a system where the governments powers are limited by the constitution; and the people enjoy rights enumerated by inclusivitity, and existing in exclusivity non-enumerated via the common law.... But in a system whereby government is seen to possess all powers except those which it is denied by the Constitution.... It's really a bad system, and a bad practive; a bad ideology; perpetuated by a people who are too weak, or too scared to re-assert their claims to Supremecy over their servant (the government); and have subjected themselves to enslavement by their own servant...


Can you quote specific parts of the document, or are you just going to say it does these things and expect people to believe you (although, I admit that is a tactic that tends to work)?

I was just interested in everyone's views on patriotism for their own country.

And I don't mean whether or not you approve of patriotism,etc.

But to me, as an American, it seems like Americans have an excellent grasp on their patriotism....between the excellent story we have in our revolutionary war to even the wealth of extremely patriotic songs (most of which we can thank JPSousa for)...

Do other nations of the world have things such as songs, color configurations, etc. that are simply dripping in patriotism for your nation, or is this largely a phenomenon unique to America?

Unfortunatly, I can't find anyone else in my area who is patriotic. (I'm American too). I think you're lucky to live where you do, cause I'm a lone patriot in a sea of jackasses saying F#^$ America!! (And I LIVE in America!!) (I'm also not joking, I hear that a lot, and then go on a "Get the hell out of the country, then" rant)

Unfortunatly, I can't find anyone else in my area who is patriotic. (I'm American too). I think you're lucky to live where you do, cause I'm a lone patriot in a sea of jackasses saying F#^$ America!! (And I LIVE in America!!) (I'm also not joking, I hear that a lot, and then go on a "Get the hell out of the country, then" rant)
I wonder why they're saying that? And their patriotism is keeping them in America. Patriotism != Blind support of country.

if patriotism is 'loving your country enough to ask q's about its government'. then i have no problem with it, although i ask q's of my gov, its not coz i love my country.

if patriotism is nationalism, which is loving your country and supporting it coz its yours, then i'm against it.

Can you quote specific parts of the document, or are you just going to say it does these things and expect people to believe you (although, I admit that is a tactic that tends to work)?

Examples: Section 106(C)


when the United States is engaged in armed
hostilities or has been attacked by a foreign country or
foreign nationals, confiscate any property, subject to
the jurisdiction of the United States, of any foreign
person, foreign organization, or foreign country that he
determines has planned, authorized, aided, or engaged in
such hostilities or attacks against the United States;
and all right, title, and interest in any property so
confiscated shall vest, when, as, and upon the terms
directed by the President, in such agency or person as
the President may designate from time to time, and upon
such terms and conditions as the President may
prescribe, such interest or property shall be held,
used, administered, liquidated, sold, or otherwise dealt
with in the interest of and for the benefit of the
United States, and such designated agency or person may
perform any and all acts incident to the accomplishment
or furtherance of these purposes.

IOW: The Legislature has conveyed powers to the president to seize such ownership, and take on all such administration and rights towards lands, to which they themselves do not have powers; as deliniated under Section 8 of Article I... They conveyed powers to the president; they themselves don't even have.... And they did it through legislation; yet deliniation occurs via Constitution, not legislation...

Example 2:

Section 215 repeals "sections 501 through 503" of the FISA....

And replaces it with language such as "The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a
designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant
Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring
the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers,
documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against
international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided
that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted
solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to
the Constitution."

Before FISA, as a secret court, had no power over US citizens. As they did not have to make presentments of indictment, or provide warrant before making searches or seizures.... Patriot made US Citizens applicable to a "secret" Court; which does not have to present you with anything, or notify you of anything, present warrant, or present writ... As all such are "classified" and "sealed" by the courts, before they are issued; and while they are inacted.

Under such provision, an FBI agent can break down your door; tell you they have a warrant; you can neither ask for the warrant; nor see it... And they can seize whatever they want; and arrest you... Without even, or ever telling you the charges... You will then be arraigned before a closed FISA court, in secret, without presentment of charge still, and can be held as long as they pretty much like......... And people consider this "legal"...

Tekania, your first example does not make sense. How does legislature not have the power to give the President a power?

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
Last line of Section 8 of Article I.

I guess the argument you make in the first example simply isn't very clear to me.


In the second example, while I can see some problems with it (although I haven't looked into it beyond what you just quoted here, so there may be more to the story that's not posted here), at the same rate, keep these lines in mind:

provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

Tekania, your first example does not make sense. How does legislature not have the power to give the President a power?


Last line of Section 8 of Article I.

I guess the argument you make in the first example simply isn't very clear to me.


"powers vested by this Constitution".... The legislature has powers to make law; and enforce existing vested powers amongst the several branches. It does not have power to convey power to other branches... As each Branch has its powers clearly "vested".... Moving a power from one branch to another, or to take on new powers requires amendment (like the 16th)... Not legislation... Legislation only exists within the powers already vested... It does not "create" new ones...

In this case, it's "creating" a power as well, and transfering. The legislature had sole power over aquiring and holding authority over certain properties. But no power to seize..... They are conveying a seizure power to the PResident, over properties they themselves are not empowered to seize; and giving him authority over those properties....


In the second example, while I can see some problems with it (although I haven't looked into it beyond what you just quoted here, so there may be more to the story that's not posted here), at the same rate, keep these lines in mind:

The last point does not matter.... Excusing people on the 1st, while honorable; in no way can grant authority, or is justifiable violating the 4th through 6th.... We can't do it if it violates your first amendment rights... But we're going to violate Search and Seizure, Due Process, Public Trial, Jury and Confrontational rights as long as we don't your Speech and Religious rights?

Is the first amendment the only right we have left? And since when were the others repealed?

if patriotism is 'loving your country enough to ask q's about its government'. then i have no problem with it, although i ask q's of my gov, its not coz i love my country.

if patriotism is nationalism, which is loving your country and supporting it coz its yours, then i'm against it.
Patriotism used to mean the former...but now that we've gone to English v 2.0, a.k.a Newspeak, it means the latter. Sadly other words have undergone similar transitions during the past several years.

Excuse me, I will NOT point out that they had nothing to do with the country. Slavery was done. Unconstituional concentration camps were done, and genocide of the Native American people were done. I consider myself the one of the biggest patriots around and I AM AMERICAN. You and your silly argument have been disproven.

No... actually, you just proved them. Thank you.

So, independence and the constitution were "achievements", something to be proud about, a reason for patriotism, but slavery was just "done" and no reason for shame.
That is exactly what I observed and the reason why I think that patriotism is blind to the negative. A state of denial, one could say.





So I and most real patriotic Americans going to be a wife and child beater and immoral person from your point.


When exactly did I say that? I gave an example, nothing more. I was trying to point out that patriotism isn't inherently good and can turn out to be very dangerous indeed.

No... actually, you just proved them. Thank you.

So, independence and the constitution were "achievements", something to be proud about, a reason for patriotism, but slavery was just "done" and no reason for shame.
That is exactly what I observed and the reason why I think that patriotism is blind to the negative. A state of denial, one could say.






When exactly did I say that? I gave an example, nothing more. I was trying to point out that patriotism isn't inherently good and can turn out to be very dangerous indeed.

No they WERE done. It is a shame we must remember to prevent it from happening in the future. I also acknowledge the fact our government and many of its people took part in many immoral acts and acts which our people must take shame in. Hell I could name more that were done to my ancestors. Why are we going to strive for achieving them again by claiming they didn't happen? We instead must honor our achievements and try to emmulate them to become a better people. To take joy in our mistakes is folly. I didn't prove you right, you were NEVER right about Americans. You are just trying to misconstrude my points to validate your invalid and biased claim.

Why are blacks and Native American US citizens going to deny they happen? What if I am of Native American heritage or black? Did you EVER consider the possibility that not all of us Americans are white? Some of us were on the other side of the abuse not very long ago. Why am I going to take pride in America's racism if I wasn't one of the people who would have been treated as an equal citizen back then?

...your [] biased claim...
:D
So he's the biased one, is he?

And tell me: You are white, aren't you?

:D
So he's the biased one, is he?

And tell me: You are white, aren't you?

I'm Hispanic. Not all Americans are white. My ancestors were native Tejanos (Mexican Texans) who rebelled after Santa Anna Abolished the Mexican Constitution of 1824. During that time, Tejano's were disliked by Mexicans as traitors, and later after the Texas Independence war was over they were hated by new white settlers blaming them as Mexican loyalist who took part in attacking Texans.

My ancestors had to deal with Texas Rangers who would steal land, shoot Tejano land owners, sentence Tejanos to an unjust judicial system.

I know my family had to deal with hateful bastards at one point of time from BOTH sides of the boarder. I know this, and I am ashamed Americans took part in such behavior.

Patriotism can be a great things for Americans IF it is used in a way to preserve American principles that were formed though the enlightenment period.

I'm also rather shocked so many idiot American haters believe most Americans are white. Whites are the largest majority, but almost half the nation is composed of Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, and people of other ethnicities such as Indians, middle-eastern folks and etc.

I live in South Texas by the way mother****ers. I am partially fluent in Spanish as well.

I'm also rather shocked so many idiot American haters believe most Americans are white. Whites are the largest majority, but almost half the nation is composed of Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, and people of other ethnicities such as Indians, middle-eastern folks and etc.
Come on, he didn't say anything of the sort. And outside of the US, people generally know a little bit about their friends and allies.
Nonetheless, your Patriotism is very unlike the kind that we outside the US get to see. And so we are arguing for different things here...

Come on, he didn't say anything of the sort. And outside of the US, people generally know a little bit about their friends and allies.
Nonetheless, your Patriotism is very unlike the kind that we outside the US get to see. And so we are arguing for different things here...

I do not try to know to much about my allies for one general purpose. To mind my own business. I do not want to tamper in your affairs, nor would I believe you would like us to interfer as well. (We sure do get complaints one way or another though it seems.)

I feel it a great horrible attack that happened in London and Spain and morn for my ally's dead and send my deepest condolences, but aside from that I really do not care for your politics and issues because they are not my responsibity to care for or argue with. It is their freedom as independent states to deal with it as they see fit. The furthest I go is learning a bit of general history. In truth, a working American person has a full load with their lives, work issues, and their own country than to worry about the affairs of others.

This is why there are a LOT of uninformed American voters. They tend to be tired from work or using their free time to enjoy life than to pay attention to current events. They are just people who enjoy their freedoms to fart around in their lives when they are not working. This is why our political situation could be much better than the pain in the ass it is now. This is also why people only associate patriotism with serving in the armed forces (Sacrificing your time and liberty for the community) and waving the American flag and supporting the troops endeavors. They really don't contribute their time to being real patriots. Just nationalistic people who don't want to feel like they are disrespecting sacrifices of the Americans that came before them. I just happen to be one of the few that is greatly intrested in current events in my government and is a conservative to the point of protecting Constitutional outline and Republic principles.

Edit: I seemed to mistake you for another poster with that "shocked you thought we were white I was arguing with a few days ago. My apologies. I'm removing it.

Well, to keep things fair, the US have a...reputation for interfering in other countries' affairs.
Otherwise, patriotism as you define it is fine, patriotism as what it usually means today is not okay in my view.
Kind of like Communism then...
:p

Well, to keep things fair, the US have a...reputation for interfering in other countries' affairs.
Otherwise, patriotism as you define it is fine, patriotism as what it usually means today is not okay in my view.
Kind of like Communism then...
:p

And I do not approve of our interference. Politics however is a very devilish thing as are politicians. Hell I have a lot of wishes of actions the US took after WW2. I don't even feel we should have interfered in WW1. I look to George Washington's warnings of entangling alliances as a guidence to how we should conduct ourselves.

We need to enjoy global trade. Not be a police force. Hell, all we are doing is wasting our money and not getting paid for keeping the peace. Now it has gotten us involved with Israel's problems (terrorism). We've got enough nukes to make every country in the world not want to invade us three times over and our citizens are armed to the teeth thanks to our liberties. I think its safe to say we don't need to worry if WW3 happens. Because we probably don't need to worry about enemies wanting to get us involved.

Only a coward has no patriotic feelings for his country, so what if you dont agree with the government of the day, your fighting for the soil you were born on, the air that you breathe, thats whats important!

Yesssss.

Except where you are born is an accident of geography and the air you breathe has been blow in from elsewhere.
Niether are worth fighting for and certainly not killing for.
You human rights are buthey should be universal