NationStates Jolt Archive


Dont shove Jesus down my throat

TropicalMontana
05-07-2005, 15:22
I am really sick of proselytizing Christians who can't agree to disagree.

I accept that they believe something i don't. I think they are missing the point. I think that their choice of beliefs takes the focus away from the gift of life that God has given in preference for a focus on the afterlife in Heaven.

That's fine. they can believe what they want, and pay the consequences, or reap the rewards, as it were.

So why can't they accept that i believe differently and LET IT BE? Why is it i can agree on every point about what they believe, except i refuse to call it by the name Jesus, preferring to speak of the White Light or Joy or Love, or some other name of the same feeling.

Why does it get them so upset that i won't call the concept by the name they have given it?

Do they think God is so shallow that he cares what name you call the goodness you do? I am told i am going to hell because the good i do is not done in Jesus' name. I don't think even Jesus asked that we do things in his name, but rather in his spirit.

That spirit is the spirit of Goodness or Light, or whatever you want to call it. And even if you call it by some other name than Jesus, it changes nothing about that spirit.

I mean, come on, the Hispanics sah "Hay-zoos" and americans say "Gee-suz" and it probably sounds different in different languages. So what if i call it "the River". I am talking about the same thing.

Is God really so petty and shallow?

And if i choose to follow the path i believe God has given me and accomplish the tasks he has set before me, my reward is in following that path. I seek no reward of Heaven.

Im not sure if i even want to go to heaven. If the Christians are right, then there's nothing but self-righteous Jesus cultists there. The guy that plundered his company's pension plan, leaving thousands of people destitute in their old age, and spending it on a Hummer and a subscription to some pornography--that guy gets to go to heaven because he accepts the name of Jesus.

But some Buddhist that lives a life of poverty and charity and kindness and homage who has never hurt a single living soul and cries for the bug he accidently stepped on...THAT guy is going to hell.

I don't think Heaven is a club i would want to join, if that's how it works.

So thanks anyway, Christians, but i don't want any part of your exclusive, intolerant, hateful Heaven.

And if i burn in hell for living the best, most compassionate life i know how, then God is unjust. I can't accept that.
Whispering Legs
05-07-2005, 15:26
You, and many other people, including some "Christians", have a basic misunderstanding of Christianity.

Please don't lump me into your example, as I have never shoved any Jesus down anyone's throat. And your description of Christian belief does not correspond to the one I learned and believe, so don't try to place it on me like some sort of mud splatter.
Willamena
05-07-2005, 15:26
Bravo
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 15:28
Lol. Is it just Christianity, though? What if somebody tried to preach Islam to you? Or force you to eat broccoli because "it's good for you"?

Sometimes I think people are biased towards Christianity. I don't like it, but I would like to raise that point.
Whispering Legs
05-07-2005, 15:30
Lol. Is it just Christianity, though? What if somebody tried to preach Islam to you? Or force you to eat broccoli because "it's good for you"?

Sometimes I think people are biased towards Christianity. I don't like it, but I would like to raise that point.

Maybe he should sit through a lecture by a die-hard Leninist. It's not just religion that fosters proselytizing.
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 15:33
Maybe he should sit through a lecture by a die-hard Leninist. It's not just religion that fosters proselytizing.

Aw...yeah...if he/she knows how to read Chinese he can try read the posts on one of the fori I used to frequent. Either you're a rightist who promotes the overthrow of the Communist Party in China and fight for Hong Kong's independence, or you're a Communist lackey - a "dog", or a eunuch in service of the Imperial family in Beijing. These terms are just downright derogatory and unacceptable in Chinese culture. Talk about forcing opinion down one's throat. Lol.
Iztatepopotla
05-07-2005, 15:36
That spirit is the spirit of Goodness or Light, or whatever you want to call it. And even if you call it by some other name than Jesus, it changes nothing about that spirit.

Hey! Stop shoving spirits down my throat! erm... unless it's a good whisky.
Greater Pat
05-07-2005, 15:38
Maybe he should sit through a lecture by a die-hard Leninist. It's not just religion that fosters proselytizing.Perhaps he should rail against proselytizing in general?

To be fair, any group or person who is not willing to engage in a two-way dialogue is pretty annoying, whether that argument is about politics, religion or the relative superiority of pepperoni pizza over sausage (BTW: It's pepperoni and that's not debateable).
Koroser
05-07-2005, 15:38
The reason he's talking about Christianity in particular is because it's the most common religion in the US, and therefore the one he probably encounters most often. I mean, when was the last time you saw a muslim going door to door?
Massr
05-07-2005, 15:39
The only christians that always try to convert me and my family to thier religion are the Jehova's Witness. the rest of the christians are fine with me we all get along well :)

koroser, MAYBE some do but it isnt like christianity(no offense). but true muslims dont really go door to door.
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 15:41
The only christians that always try to convert me nad my family to thier religion are the Jehova's Witness. the rest of the christians are fine with me we all get along well :)

In some strict Muslim societies, if you decide to change your religion, your family would rather chop your head off rather than let you "suffer in Hell". Instead of "shoving down throat", they prefer "slicing your throat".

Maybe TropicalMontana could care to describe one of his/her experiences. His or her?
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 15:42
Lol. Is it just Christianity, though? What if somebody tried to preach Islam to you? Or force you to eat broccoli because "it's good for you"?

Sometimes I think people are biased towards Christianity. I don't like it, but I would like to raise that point.
When I start having to deal with legislated Islam or street corner Islamic preaching I will be as annoyed with it as I am Christianity …

But I don’t see that on a daily basis right now … I cant really get annoyed with something I have minimal contact with
Keruvalia
05-07-2005, 15:42
Dont shove Jesus down my throat

Eww.
Massr
05-07-2005, 15:43
maybe you should come here to egypt and see what happens when you decide to convert from christianity to islam ;).

besides what you just said is 'rare' maybe they do it in saudi arabia(i personally dont like them) but most families disown you.(some christians do that too)

besides why you brining up this thing about islam in an irrelevant thread :P make one and we talk there.
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 15:43
Eww.


LOL!!!
Iztatepopotla
05-07-2005, 15:44
Maybe TropicalMontana could care to describe one of his/her experiences. His or her?
I use "shu" when I don't know the gender of the person. So it would be "shur experience" and "give it to shum". Saves a lot of effort.
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 15:44
In some strict Muslim societies, if you decide to change your religion, your family would rather chop your head off rather than let you "suffer in Hell". Instead of "shoving down throat", they prefer "slicing your throat".

Maybe TropicalMontana could care to describe one of his/her experiences. His or her?
And Christianity has been at that point themselves as well … luckily I don’t have to deal with that on a daily basis … Christianity a lot of us do have to deal with on the other hand hence the annoyance
Druidville
05-07-2005, 15:47
What kind of Christianity are you talking about? Remind me to describe the concepts of "Forgiveness" and "Repentance" to you sometime.

In the meantime, try putting what you preach into practice and spread the tolerance around. It's not just for people you agree with, you know.
New Fubaria
05-07-2005, 15:47
Personally, I'm of the opinion you can believe whatever you want, so long as -

A.) You don't try to shove your beliefs down my throat, and

B.) You don't write laws or legislation based on your personal idealogy...
Tammborania
05-07-2005, 15:47
Lol. Is it just Christianity, though? What if somebody tried to preach Islam to you? Or force you to eat broccoli because "it's good for you"?

How many ppl go to war in the name of nutrition, or knock on your door in the morning, etc etc.... :)

The problem isn't religion, it's ppl with power using religion.
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 15:49
And Christianity has been at that point themselves as well … luckily I don’t have to deal with that on a daily basis … Christianity a lot of us do have to deal with on the other hand hence the annoyance

Ya, perhaps, but we're talking about "nowadays"...


Let's face it, we can all be guilty of trying to persuade too hard it annoys. The syndrome is not limited to Christianity, who may be just trying hard to share a gift.

I've heard of stories about Christians really going very far in trying to persuade, and I don't agree to that behaviour. But hey, we all do that, so we could all have an extra bit of tolerance. All of us.
The penguinis
05-07-2005, 15:50
[QUOTE]Im not sure if i even want to go to heaven. If the Christians are right, then there's nothing but self-righteous Jesus cultists there. The guy that plundered his company's pension plan, leaving thousands of people destitute in their old age, and spending it on a Hummer and a subscription to some pornography--that guy gets to go to heaven because he accepts the name of Jesus.[/QUOTE/]

While reading your post I reallized, You have some seriously misguided views of christianity. The man you describe up above would never go to heaven. To go to heaven you don't have to be a christian, you could be muslim or a jew, or even an athletist. You simply have to do good things in your life, follow the rules of whatever religon you have, and then die to go to heaven, or whatever other religon calll their afterlife. Most religon share the same rules to live and have an afterlife in somee way or another.

Do some research before you go spouting off!
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 15:52
[QUOTE]Im not sure if i even want to go to heaven. If the Christians are right, then there's nothing but self-righteous Jesus cultists there. The guy that plundered his company's pension plan, leaving thousands of people destitute in their old age, and spending it on a Hummer and a subscription to some pornography--that guy gets to go to heaven because he accepts the name of Jesus.[/QUOTE/]

While reading your post I reallized, You have some seriously misguided views of christianity. The man you describe up above would never go to heaven. To go to heaven you don't have to be a christian, you could be muslim or a jew, or even an athletist. You simply have to do good things in your life, follow the rules of whatever religon you have, and then die to go to heaven, or whatever other religon calll their afterlife. Most religon share the same rules to live and have an afterlife in somee way or another.

Do some research before you go spouting off!

I disagree...but not here...
Neo Rogolia
05-07-2005, 15:52
Perhaps he should rail against proselytizing in general?

To be fair, any group or person who is not willing to engage in a two-way dialogue is pretty annoying, whether that argument is about politics, religion or the relative superiority of pepperoni pizza over sausage (BTW: It's pepperoni and that's not debateable).




Who would claim the superiority of sausage over pepperoni? That shouldn't even be an issue!
Frangland
05-07-2005, 15:54
Perhaps he should rail against proselytizing in general?

To be fair, any group or person who is not willing to engage in a two-way dialogue is pretty annoying, whether that argument is about politics, religion or the relative superiority of pepperoni pizza over sausage (BTW: It's pepperoni and that's not debateable).

STOP SHOVING YOUR PEPPERONI DOWN MY THROAT

ER... YOUR PEPPERONISM, THAT IS!

SAUSAGE RULZ, BIATCH!!!! WOO HOO!

and anyone who doesn't agree can GO TO HIZELL!
Lyric
05-07-2005, 15:57
I am really sick of proselytizing Christians who can't agree to disagree.

I accept that they believe something i don't. I think they are missing the point. I think that their choice of beliefs takes the focus away from the gift of life that God has given in preference for a focus on the afterlife in Heaven.

That's fine. they can believe what they want, and pay the consequences, or reap the rewards, as it were.

So why can't they accept that i believe differently and LET IT BE? Why is it i can agree on every point about what they believe, except i refuse to call it by the name Jesus, preferring to speak of the White Light or Joy or Love, or some other name of the same feeling.

Why does it get them so upset that i won't call the concept by the name they have given it?

Do they think God is so shallow that he cares what name you call the goodness you do? I am told i am going to hell because the good i do is not done in Jesus' name. I don't think even Jesus asked that we do things in his name, but rather in his spirit.

That spirit is the spirit of Goodness or Light, or whatever you want to call it. And even if you call it by some other name than Jesus, it changes nothing about that spirit.

I mean, come on, the Hispanics sah "Hay-zoos" and americans say "Gee-suz" and it probably sounds different in different languages. So what if i call it "the River". I am talking about the same thing.

Is God really so petty and shallow?

And if i choose to follow the path i believe God has given me and accomplish the tasks he has set before me, my reward is in following that path. I seek no reward of Heaven.

Im not sure if i even want to go to heaven. If the Christians are right, then there's nothing but self-righteous Jesus cultists there. The guy that plundered his company's pension plan, leaving thousands of people destitute in their old age, and spending it on a Hummer and a subscription to some pornography--that guy gets to go to heaven because he accepts the name of Jesus.

But some Buddhist that lives a life of poverty and charity and kindness and homage who has never hurt a single living soul and cries for the bug he accidently stepped on...THAT guy is going to hell.

I don't think Heaven is a club i would want to join, if that's how it works.

So thanks anyway, Christians, but i don't want any part of your exclusive, intolerant, hateful Heaven.

And if i burn in hell for living the best, most compassionate life i know how, then God is unjust. I can't accept that.


As a Unitarian Christian myself, I say, very well said!
I, too, am often assailed by these overzealous, unctious, so-called "Christians" because I actually believe in the actual teachings of Jesus...you know, things like peace, joy, love, tolerance, acceptance, forgiveness, mercy, non-judgementalism...that Jesus. The one in the Gospels.
I agree with you that if Heaven is gonna be filled with morons like that, I might just choose Door Number 2 voluntarily, rather than spend eternity around a group of people that, quite frankly, make my skin crawl.

I spean ten years as an Athiest and an Agnostic, because of so-called "Christians" like them...I had lost the faith. I found it again through my mother and my cousin, both of them are examples of good Christians, who seem to believe in the same Jesus I mentioned before.

Let me give you a really good piece of advice. Note that this does NOT apply over the Internet, because over the Internet, the typed words are all you have by which to measure a person. Generally, though, in your life...when someone has to TELL you that they are a Christian...chances are, they aren't. If they are, you'll know it by their ACTIONS...not their words.

As I say, this doesn't apply over the Internet, because often one's actions are not visible over the Internet, and you're left with only the words to judge by. This applies to people with whom you have personal contact.

Sad to say there are a lot of people out there who have Jesus in their head...but not in their heart.
Hadesofunderworld
05-07-2005, 15:58
Im not sure if i even want to go to heaven. If the Christians are right, then there's nothing but self-righteous Jesus cultists there. The guy that plundered his company's pension plan, leaving thousands of people destitute in their old age, and spending it on a Hummer and a subscription to some pornography--that guy gets to go to heaven because he accepts the name of Jesus.

in some ways I agree

I mean, it used to be like "If you're good you'll go to heaven"

now it's like, "if you're gay, if you cuss, if you have sex, if you have another Religion, if you commit suicide you go streght to hell"

Personally I just have faith, I came to Jesus because of Choice

so many Christians do really need to learn to stop shoving it down others' throats

I heard this one woman tell a little girl she was going to hell for watching Scooby Doo and Pokemon
Rokolev
05-07-2005, 15:59
Jesus (and God) is dead anyway, why bother with him?
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 15:59
Ya, perhaps, but we're talking about "nowadays"...


Let's face it, we can all be guilty of trying to persuade too hard it annoys. The syndrome is not limited to Christianity, who may be just trying hard to share a gift.

I've heard of stories about Christians really going very far in trying to persuade, and I don't agree to that behaviour. But hey, we all do that, so we could all have an extra bit of tolerance. All of us.
Hey its just annoyance its not like most of us really want to restrict your speech

But we can still be annoyed … tolerance is making sure that annoyance or displeasure does not effect others freedoms no matter how much we think we are right (unlike a lot of the attempt to legislate faith out there)
TropicalMontana
05-07-2005, 16:00
While reading your post I reallized, You have some seriously misguided views of christianity. The man you describe up above would never go to heaven. To go to heaven you don't have to be a christian, you could be muslim or a jew, or even an athletist. You simply have to do good things in your life, follow the rules of whatever religon you have, and then die to go to heaven, or whatever other religon calll their afterlife. Most religon share the same rules to live and have an afterlife in somee way or another.

Do some research before you go spouting off![/QUOTE]


Sorry, these are not MY misguided views of Christianity. THis is what a Born-Again Christian told me. That the Hummer-driving theif would go to heaven because since he accepts Jesus as his personal saviour, his sins are FORGIVEN. So he gets into heaven. But even the best Muslim or Jew or Buddhist is denied entrance into heaven because their good works don't count unless they are done in Jesus' name.

I realize that not all Christians believe this way. Just the ones that proselytize.

And certainly i am against proselytization in all its forms. I am just ranting about the Christian form right now because the conversation i got into last night has left a nasty taste in my mouth.

I DO tolerate those who do not believe as i do. It just makes me mad that they will not tolerate ME.

I mean, it seems so hypocritical. Jesus hung out with all variety of sinners and never told them they were going to hell. What happened to JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED?

I'm sorry, but when someone tells me i am going to hell because i won't use the word 'jesus' in my beliefs, it ticks me off.

And, no, i have never had a Muslim or a Buddhist condemn me or try to force their beliefs on me, or tell me they will "pray that i will be saved".

(and then the woman asked if i would hold hands with her while she prayed for jesus to save me--i said no)

I mean, who is SHE to judge that i am wrong?
Whispering Legs
05-07-2005, 16:00
Jesus (and God) is dead anyway, why bother with him?

Because He's the only guy who rose from the dead and people didn't freak out, saying, "Look! It's a zombie! Kill it!"
SimNewtonia
05-07-2005, 16:03
I'm a Christian and I believe that street-corner preaching isn't a good way to try and get converts. Also, not letting the other person into the discussion is unfair and simply shouldn't happen (what if they have an EXTREMELY relevant question that you steamroll over?).

Persistence is OK, but there is a very fine line. Don't keep at somebody that day. Contact them again in, say, a month or two?

However I believe that the best way of outreach is just being a genuinely good person, and being slightly passive on the prompt, although even I'll admit that ther are a few cases where the "direct" approach is warranted - it just shouldn't be overused.

Intelligent conversation is also good (just because it's a religious discussion, doesn't mean two people can't be civil about it).
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 16:03
Hey its just annoyance its not like most of us really want to restrict your speech

But we can still be annoyed … tolerance is making sure that annoyance or displeasure does not effect others freedoms no matter how much we think we are right (unlike a lot of the attempt to legislate faith out there)

Yaaaaaa. I'm annoyed all the time (maybe because I'm very annoying, lol). We should all be nice to each other. :D

*gives UpwardThrust a hug*

Are you a he or a she?
UberPenguinLand
05-07-2005, 16:05
STOP SHOVING YOUR PEPPERONI DOWN MY THROAT


LMAO. But still, just because some Christians do this, people think that means Christians as a whole do it to. To get into Heaven, in my opinion, you just have to admit you aren't perfect. Jesus died and went to Hell so we don't have to. Just admit you aren't right 100% of the time. I have a feeling that if I'm correct, a lot of people from this time period won't be going.

EDIT:Started posting before the OPs latest post.
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 16:06
Yaaaaaa. I'm annoyed all the time (maybe because I'm very annoying, lol). We should all be nice to each other. :D

*gives UpwardThrust a hug*

Are you a he or a she?
He lol

And yes people have every right to believe and say what they want (and do what they want until they start messing with others rights)

*hugs back*
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 16:06
Sorry, these are not MY misguided views of Christianity. THis is what a Born-Again Christian told me. That the Hummer-driving theif would go to heaven because since he accepts Jesus as his personal saviour, his sins are FORGIVEN. So he gets into heaven. But even the best Muslim or Jew or Buddhist is denied entrance into heaven because their good works don't count unless they are done in Jesus' name.

I realize that not all Christians believe this way. Just the ones that proselytize.

And certainly i am against proselytization in all its forms. I am just ranting about the Christian form right now because the conversation i got into last night has left a nasty taste in my mouth.

I DO tolerate those who do not believe as i do. It just makes me mad that they will not tolerate ME.

I mean, it seems so hypocritical. Jesus hung out with all variety of sinners and never told them they were going to hell. What happened to JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED?

I'm sorry, but when someone tells me i am going to hell because i won't use the word 'jesus' in my beliefs, it ticks me off.

And, no, i have never had a Muslim or a Buddhist condemn me or try to force their beliefs on me, or tell me they will "pray that i will be saved".

(and then the woman asked if i would hold hands with her while she prayed for jesus to save me--i said no)

I mean, who is SHE to judge that i am wrong?

Let me assure you, then, nobody can say for God who will be saved and who won't.
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 16:07
He lol

And yes people have every right to believe and say what they want (and do what they want until they start messing with others rights)

*hugs back*

Yeah...Uber Spam-GIRL! LOL!
SimNewtonia
05-07-2005, 16:07
Because He's the only guy who rose from the dead and people didn't freak out, saying, "Look! It's a zombie! Kill it!"

LOL. And now I remeber why I love this site - the exceptionally witty humour that goes around!
TropicalMontana
05-07-2005, 16:09
As a Unitarian Christian myself, I say, very well said!
I, too, am often assailed by these overzealous, unctious, so-called "Christians" because I actually believe in the actual teachings of Jesus...you know, things like peace, joy, love, tolerance, acceptance, forgiveness, mercy, non-judgementalism...that Jesus. The one in the Gospels.
I agree with you that if Heaven is gonna be filled with morons like that, I might just choose Door Number 2 voluntarily, rather than spend eternity around a group of people that, quite frankly, make my skin crawl.

YES, exactly what i am trying to get at. Thank you for your support.

Generally, though, in your life...when someone has to TELL you that they are a Christian...chances are, they aren't. If they are, you'll know it by their ACTIONS...not their words.



if you watch actions and not words, you might have mistaken Ghandi for a Christian, then.

"peace, joy, love, tolerance, acceptance, forgiveness, mercy, non-judgementalism" are not exclusive to christianity.

That's my problem with the proselytizers. They EXCLUDE. In my own understanding, God is ALL-INCLUSIVE.
Whispering Legs
05-07-2005, 16:12
That's my problem with the proselytizers. They EXCLUDE. In my own understanding, God is ALL-INCLUSIVE.

Not all proselytizers exclude.
TropicalMontana
05-07-2005, 16:14
Not all proselytizers exclude.

oK. let me add two letters to make you feel better.

"that's my problem with theSE proselytizers"
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 16:15
Yeah...Uber Spam-GIRL! LOL!
Lol that always used to throw me off … that moniker
Whispering Legs
05-07-2005, 16:17
oK. let me add two letters to make you feel better.

"that's my problem with theSE proselytizers"

I find the following far more offensive and dangerous a practice - and it doesn't even follow the pattern that you find so problematic:

http://www.answers.com/topic/love-bombing
Frangland
05-07-2005, 16:19
LMAO. But still, just because some Christians do this, people think that means Christians as a whole do it to. To get into Heaven, in my opinion, you just have to admit you aren't perfect. Jesus died and went to Hell so we don't have to. Just admit you aren't right 100% of the time. I have a feeling that if I'm correct, a lot of people from this time period won't be going.

EDIT:Started posting before the OPs latest post.

repent and believe, yah
Dragons Bay
05-07-2005, 16:20
Lol that always used to throw me off … that moniker

:D:D:D

I have to get past that stage very quickly...
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 16:22
:D:D:D

I have to get past that stage very quickly...
You will be a spammer then ... it is from about 8 k to 9 I think (not sure)
Demented Hamsters
05-07-2005, 16:28
Anyone else have the vision of a Christian holding your nose so you have to breath through your mouth, then attempting to physically push a small Mexican named Jesus down your throat?
I know I did.
Lyric
05-07-2005, 16:28
YES, exactly what i am trying to get at. Thank you for your support.



if you watch actions and not words, you might have mistaken Ghandi for a Christian, then.

"peace, joy, love, tolerance, acceptance, forgiveness, mercy, non-judgementalism" are not exclusive to christianity.

That's my problem with the proselytizers. They EXCLUDE. In my own understanding, God is ALL-INCLUSIVE.

You're quite welcome for my support.

And your point about Gandhi is a fair point, and I am rebuked by this. Gandhi was not a christian but he was more "christian" than most of the so-called Christians who have Jesus in their heads...but not in their hearts.

My point was that it is easy to SAY you are a Christian...and much harder to practice what you preach...much harder to ACT like a christian.

Heaven knows I blow it...and quite a bit more often than I'm comfortable admitting, because sometimes people get me so damn mad that I lose it, and then I stop being a rational, caring, forgiving, loving person...because my anger takes over.

This is one of the frailties and imperfections of being human that I am unfortunately cursed with.

We are NOT perfect, nor does God or Jesus expect us to be. For did He not sya "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?" that right there says that we are not perfect, no, not one of us. the difference is that I am willing to own up to my own shortcomings, and do my best to work through them and try to get better about them so that my shortcomings do not dominate.

It's really easy and tempting to give in to your basic instincts, and lash out in a blind rage when people piss you off. I guess part of the measure of a person then, is, how well they can control that basic instinct...and how they are willing to admit that they are not always right.

As I said, Heaven knows I'm not always right, and I certainly have my share of failings and shortcomings. I know, however, I am forgiven these failings and shortcomings, because of my beliefs. However...and this is important...just because I am forgiven these things, it does NOT give me carte-blanche to continue my failings and shortcomings. I'm supposed to TRY to do better.

I'm supposed to, by my belief...TRY to follow the teachings of Jesus. And one can find better, clearer information about the TEACHINGS of Jesus by reading "The Life And Times Of Jesus Of Nazareth" by Thomas Jefferson...which, in my church, is often referred to as The Jefferson Bible. In that text is everything you need to know. Old Testament is gone. New Testament is basically the rulebook invented bny men who CLAIMED to be inspired by God.

How about going with the Words of the One we know WAS inspitred by God? And that, my friends...is Jesus. And you need look no further than the Gospels to find Him. And if you want to know his TEACHINGS, you can look to The Jefferson Bible.

The Jefferson Bible, incidentally, written by Thomas Jefferson...a former President, statesman, and scholar who was fluent in six different languages...was an attempt by Jefferson to consolidate the four Gospels into one narrative, clear up some of the minor inconsistencies in the Gospels...omitting the miracles...and concentrating, instead, on the TEACHINGS of Jesus of Nazareth.

In my church, we hold this text to be sacred.

Any who would have questions about Christianity...I recommend a reading of The Jefferson Bible. And, I think, in that text, you find the basic concepts embraced by most any world religion you can come up with...including Gandhi's. (He was Hindu, right?)

Also, another interesting factoid for you...you may not be aware of this, but, The Jefferson Bible is a traditional gift given to all new incoming members of Congress since the beginning of this country. It is also a traditional graduation gift for those who graduate from a Unitarian high school. (Yes, there are some...most of them are in the northeast...which is where Unitarianism is the most prevalent in this country)
Achtung 45
05-07-2005, 16:33
You will be a spammer then ... it is from about 8 k to 9 I think (not sure)
it is...and im looking quite forward to it...along with miss pacman lover and what not. :rolleyes:
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 16:44
it is...and im looking quite forward to it...along with miss pacman lover and what not. :rolleyes:
Really they are just self assigned names why do some guys have such an issue with it … I don’t ever hear girls complaining about some of them (like aimbots boyfriend)
New Sans
05-07-2005, 16:47
Anyone else have the vision of a Christian holding your nose so you have to breath through your mouth, then attempting to physically push a small Mexican named Jesus down your throat?
I know I did.

Yea, but I'd rather have Jesus shoved down my throat then Vishnu. 2 arms are much easier on the throat then 4.
Burzule
05-07-2005, 16:52
I have a few Christian friends who have asked me politly if I wanted to come to church with them for one day but none have tried to make me become a Christian. My one friend says "Christians who are trying to shove Christianity down your throat are just weak in there own faith towards god." So they try to get others to join there church in order to mentaly make them feel more faithful. My opinion is that you have met quite a few Christians like that and my other guess is that you have probably met Christians that you didn't even know were Christians. I know I have untill they told me one day and it was almost like they were shy to tell me. On a side note PEPPERONI rules!!!
Dobbsworld
05-07-2005, 17:03
Brand loyalty is pathetic.

God/Goddess/the Gods/Godhead/the Higher Self/Universal Consciousness/Gaia/Meta-Humanity/the Spirit of Inquiry/etc.

isn't interested in the minutiae of organized, human worship.

Yet another example of humanicentrism. How laughable we are.
New Sans
05-07-2005, 17:06
Brand loyalty is pathetic.

God/Goddess/the Gods/Godhead/the Higher Self/Universal Consciousness/Gaia/Meta-Humanity/the Spirit of Inquiry/etc.

isn't interested in the minutiae of organized, human worship.

Yet another example of humanicentrism. How laughable we are.

It seems to me more and more that if we were created by god(s)/God/entity we were created for a good laugh, and if I were any being out there I know I would be getting a few from the goings on of our world.
Cafetopia
05-07-2005, 17:07
Dont shove Jesus down my throat
Now if this was real life, I'd say something along the lines of "That's not what your mom said last night" but it's not. So I guess I'll remain civil. :(
Texoma Land
05-07-2005, 17:09
I'm guessing that TropicalMontana lives in the south or another area dominated by fundies. In these areas, "christians" simply won't leave you alone. They push and push and push. Here in Texas, mainstream denominations regularly come knocking on your door to inquire about your relationship with Jesus and to invite you to their latest revival meeting. You can't go to a store without finding religous tracts placed among the merchandise. You cant use a public toliet without finding religious tracts taped to the stall. You cant go to the car wash without seeing a huge sign with some scripture orother quoted on it. You can't catch a bus without being assaulted by some bilbe toting bully. And you can't go to a public function or fair without having to deal with someone praying for your salvation and generally making a major deal of it when you refuse to accept their saviour. Living in the south, I understand where TropicalMontana is comming from.

This wasn't the case when I lived in Minnesota. Up north, christians are much more respectful. On rare occasions they might ask you to discuss religion with them, but they didn't push and try to force the issue. But then the region isn't controlled by fundies (yet). I don't think christians in general are the problem. It is the fundies who crave power and want to control that are the problem. The same is true of all groups though. Most communists, vegetarians, anarchists, capitalists, atheists, hindus, muslums, etc live and let live. But the fundies of any group make life difficult for the rest of us.
Neo Rogolia
05-07-2005, 17:12
As a Unitarian Christian myself, I say, very well said!
I, too, am often assailed by these overzealous, unctious, so-called "Christians" because I actually believe in the actual teachings of Jesus...you know, things like peace, joy, love, tolerance, acceptance, forgiveness, mercy, non-judgementalism...that Jesus. The one in the Gospels.
I agree with you that if Heaven is gonna be filled with morons like that, I might just choose Door Number 2 voluntarily, rather than spend eternity around a group of people that, quite frankly, make my skin crawl.

I spean ten years as an Athiest and an Agnostic, because of so-called "Christians" like them...I had lost the faith. I found it again through my mother and my cousin, both of them are examples of good Christians, who seem to believe in the same Jesus I mentioned before.

Let me give you a really good piece of advice. Note that this does NOT apply over the Internet, because over the Internet, the typed words are all you have by which to measure a person. Generally, though, in your life...when someone has to TELL you that they are a Christian...chances are, they aren't. If they are, you'll know it by their ACTIONS...not their words.

As I say, this doesn't apply over the Internet, because often one's actions are not visible over the Internet, and you're left with only the words to judge by. This applies to people with whom you have personal contact.

Sad to say there are a lot of people out there who have Jesus in their head...but not in their heart.




I'm sorry, when does Jesus teach us to accept sin? Remember the ol' "Go now and sin no more"?
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 17:15
I'm sorry, when does Jesus teach us to accept sin? Remember the ol' "Go now and sin no more"?
And people are supposed to be tolerant of you intruding on our personal life why? You can hate me all you want just don’t fuck with my freedoms
Neo Rogolia
05-07-2005, 17:19
We are NOT perfect, nor does God or Jesus expect us to be. For did He not sya "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God?" that right there says that we are not perfect, no, not one of us. the difference is that I am willing to own up to my own shortcomings, and do my best to work through them and try to get better about them so that my shortcomings do not dominate.


Actually, Paul said that. You know, the same person whom you hate and label a misogynist? The same person whose authority you disregard?
Neo Rogolia
05-07-2005, 17:20
And people are supposed to be tolerant of you intruding on our personal life why? You can hate me all you want just don’t fuck with my freedoms


Hate you? Nice strawman you're constructing there, but I hate NO ONE.
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 17:23
Hate you? Nice strawman you're constructing there, but I hate NO ONE.
No I dident mean you hate me I mean even if the rule was not “hate the sin love the sinner” or if people broke the rule it still does not matter to me in light of governmental equality where rights are not infringed
Filibustasia
05-07-2005, 17:23
I'm a Pagan, and believe in Gaea, Zeus, and respecting the earth. I'm definitely going to Hell. :)

Now, as I can't be arsed to read any more of this:


While reading your post I reallized, You have some seriously misguided views of christianity. The man you describe up above would never go to heaven. To go to heaven you don't have to be a christian, you could be muslim or a jew, or even an athletist. You simply have to do good things in your life, follow the rules of whatever religon you have, and then die to go to heaven, or whatever other religon calll their afterlife. Most religon share the same rules to live and have an afterlife in somee way or another.

Nope, you've got it wrong mate. Or rather, you've got it right, but that isn't orthodox Christianity; I remember the teachings, salvation comes from repentance, Jesus is the path to God.

But then again, you can't just criticise Christians. Actually, you can't criticise Christians; you have to criticise fundamentalists; those who use their personal beliefs to give them an excuse to oppress and kill others.

Of course, Christianity *does* deserve some particular stick at the moment because it's their lot that have the big bombs at the moment. You wait 'til we Pagans have the weaponry... :p
Tropical Montana
05-07-2005, 17:27
I'm sorry, when does Jesus teach us to accept sin? Remember the ol' "Go now and sin no more"?


How about "Judge not lest thee be judged."???

It's not for you ('you' being any human) to tell me my sins. or how i can change so i am not sinning in your eyes.
BastardSword
05-07-2005, 17:37
I am really sick of proselytizing Christians who can't agree to disagree.

I accept that they believe something i don't. I think they are missing the point. I think that their choice of beliefs takes the focus away from the gift of life that God has given in preference for a focus on the afterlife in Heaven.

That's fine. they can believe what they want, and pay the consequences, or reap the rewards, as it were.

So why can't they accept that i believe differently and LET IT BE? Why is it i can agree on every point about what they believe, except i refuse to call it by the name Jesus, preferring to speak of the White Light or Joy or Love, or some other name of the same feeling.

Wait every point, even that you will go to hell? Geez, why do you trust that part? Catholic and Protestant Christianity think that there are only two choices heaven or hell, but there are much more than that. There are the three degress of glory in Hesven: Telestrial, Terestrial, Celestrial. Three places in each kingdom also. Also Spirit Prison and than Outer Darknesss aka Hell.

Jesus isn't a feeling dude he is a person anyway lol.

Why does it get them so upset that i won't call the concept by the name they have given it?

Do they think God is so shallow that he cares what name you call the goodness you do? I am told i am going to hell because the good i do is not done in Jesus' name. I don't think even Jesus asked that we do things in his name, but rather in his spirit.

That spirit is the spirit of Goodness or Light, or whatever you want to call it. And even if you call it by some other name than Jesus, it changes nothing about that spirit.

I mean, come on, the Hispanics sah "Hay-zoos" and americans say "Gee-suz" and it probably sounds different in different languages. So what if i call it "the River". I am talking about the same thing.

If you aren't using God's name than you aren't including him. Thus you aren't talking to him.
No, doing good is good. You don't have to do it in god's name. But you can't pray to someone else and expect god to talk back because he knows you than aren't talking to him.
Actually Jesus said his name. He never said in his spirit, but that may be your interpretation of what his name means. I don't understand how you came to that conclusion though.
Actually it does change a lot of about it.

Example if for example I pray to Madonna, than I'm not praying in Jesus name or through him. So obviously the name matters some.

If you ptray to the river than you are being rather Shamanistic and you aren't talking to Jesus.
Hispanics are saying Jesus's name when they say "Hey-zeus" because that is how it is pronounced in spanish.

Is God really so petty and shallow?

And if i choose to follow the path i believe God has given me and accomplish the tasks he has set before me, my reward is in following that path. I seek no reward of Heaven.

Im not sure if i even want to go to heaven. If the Christians are right, then there's nothing but self-righteous Jesus cultists there. The guy that plundered his company's pension plan, leaving thousands of people destitute in their old age, and spending it on a Hummer and a subscription to some pornography--that guy gets to go to heaven because he accepts the name of Jesus.

Yep he gets to go to Heaven, most likely Spirit Prison but after he serves his time and punishment there than probably the lowest kingdom of glory the Telestrial kingdom.

Sorry dude you can't excape Heaven. The only way to get out of going to Heaven is making to Outer Darkness but you are too ignorant of God's plans to make it. To get to Outer Darkness is an informed choice. You must know and have all knowledge of Heavenly Father's plans. Than blasphemy against this knowledge that you know in your heart is true by the Holy Ghost aka Blasphemying against the Holy Ghost.
Than like Judas you may escape Heaven. But you know too little to suceed unless you convert or shift your way of thinking.

Of course once you know all this truth, why would you turn from it...still can't undestand that part.

But some Buddhist that lives a life of poverty and charity and kindness and homage who has never hurt a single living soul and cries for the bug he accidently stepped on...THAT guy is going to hell.

I don't think Heaven is a club i would want to join, if that's how it works.

So thanks anyway, Christians, but i don't want any part of your exclusive, intolerant, hateful Heaven.

And if i burn in hell for living the best, most compassionate life i know how, then God is unjust. I can't accept that.

Buddhist guy did hurt a single soul he killed a bug. But yes he will wait in Telestrial kingdom while he is preached by ministering angels about Jesus. Once in Heaven he accepts Jesus(if he decides to) he will be able to make it to Terestrial kingdom, second highest kingdom.
His lacking of knowledge of Jesus is only thing holding him back.

Sorry you can't escape Heaven while being in a state of gnorance. You will go to Heaven no matter what if you stay the way you are.
Jocabia
05-07-2005, 17:41
I'm always amused by this complaint on a forum. Little secret, it's a forum. You don't have to click on the threads you don't want to read. You don't have to read the posts you don't want to read or read posts from someone you know is a problem. That's the great thing about a forum. You come preaching to me (be it Catholicism, Atheism or that Clinton is "the best president ever!!!") and I don't have to push you out of my house and shut the door, I just avert my eyes.
Neo Rogolia
05-07-2005, 17:45
How about "Judge not lest thee be judged."???

It's not for you ('you' being any human) to tell me my sins. or how i can change so i am not sinning in your eyes.



Read 2 Timothy and Titus then come back and tell me that.
Tropical Montana
05-07-2005, 17:46
I'm always amused by this complaint on a forum. Little secret, it's a forum. You don't have to click on the threads you don't want to read. You don't have to read the posts you don't want to read or read posts from someone you know is a problem. That's the great thing about a forum. You come preaching to me (be it Catholicism, Atheism or that Clinton is "the best president ever!!!") and I don't have to push you out of my house and shut the door, I just avert my eyes.

Hey, numbnut, did i say that i had a problem with people in the forum proselytizing me?

If you read the whole thread, you would have realized i am talking about someone who was IN THE ROOM asking me to hold her hands and pray.

not the forum.

I would have had to push her out of the house and shut the door.

I'm just bitching about it here in the forum.
UpwardThrust
05-07-2005, 17:48
Question … why is the thread creator posting from two different accounts? (just curious)
Tropical Montana
05-07-2005, 17:50
Read 2 Timothy and Titus then come back and tell me that.

Okay, lets clear one thing up. I don't accept the current English bible as a valid reference source.

Anyone who knows the slightest bit about history and translation will understand. the rest of you, i don't care if you understand. I don't accept your bible as FACT.

and i have to say that the entirety of Bastard Sword's post made me laugh.

Wonder where he came up with that and who made it up. But of course, i don't care if that's what he wants to believe. He might even be right.

I am just saying that those who can't agree to disagree really bug me. Not everyone is going to agree with you. Get over it and move on. Quit shoving Jesus down my throat. I disagree. Even if it means i am making a mistake and will burn in hell, i still dont agree.

And the more judgemental and intolerant your stance is, the less i agree.
Tropical Montana
05-07-2005, 17:52
Question … why is the thread creator posting from two different accounts? (just curious)
because it automatically logged me into the TropicalMontana account when i first came into the forum.
When i came back, it made me log in so i logged into my usual account.

i have both Tropical Montana and TropicalMontana as nations. One is UN, the other is not. No mystery.
Zatarack
05-07-2005, 17:55
The only christians that always try to convert me and my family to thier religion are the Jehova's Witness. the rest of the christians are fine with me we all get along well :)

koroser, MAYBE some do but it isnt like christianity(no offense). but true muslims dont really go door to door.

I was not aware Jehova's Witnesses were Christian.
Jocabia
05-07-2005, 18:05
Hey, numbnut, did i say that i had a problem with people in the forum proselytizing me?

If you read the whole thread, you would have realized i am talking about someone who was IN THE ROOM asking me to hold her hands and pray.

not the forum.

I would have had to push her out of the house and shut the door.

I'm just bitching about it here in the forum.

Wow, that was bitter and a flame. Actually, I didn't specifically reply to you (notice I didn't quote you), because while you might be talking about in person, many here replying to your thread are not. A thread pops up with a Christian or an Atheist complaining about intolerance a couple times a week. Little tip - discussion forum means we have discussions. I can reply in your thread and not be talking to you at all.
Haidrian
05-07-2005, 18:05
I don't know about the rest of the US, but in the midwest you get it from alot
of the different Christian groups when the find out your not Christian. penticostals are the worst they like to threaten you with burn (literal) if the know your Pagan :headbang:
Whispering Legs
05-07-2005, 18:05
I'm guessing that TropicalMontana lives in the south or another area dominated by fundies. In these areas, "christians" simply won't leave you alone. They push and push and push. Here in Texas, mainstream denominations regularly come knocking on your door to inquire about your relationship with Jesus and to invite you to their latest revival meeting. You can't go to a store without finding religous tracts placed among the merchandise. You cant use a public toliet without finding religious tracts taped to the stall. You cant go to the car wash without seeing a huge sign with some scripture orother quoted on it. You can't catch a bus without being assaulted by some bilbe toting bully. And you can't go to a public function or fair without having to deal with someone praying for your salvation and generally making a major deal of it when you refuse to accept their saviour. Living in the south, I understand where TropicalMontana is comming from.

This wasn't the case when I lived in Minnesota. Up north, christians are much more respectful. On rare occasions they might ask you to discuss religion with them, but they didn't push and try to force the issue. But then the region isn't controlled by fundies (yet). I don't think christians in general are the problem. It is the fundies who crave power and want to control that are the problem. The same is true of all groups though. Most communists, vegetarians, anarchists, capitalists, atheists, hindus, muslums, etc live and let live. But the fundies of any group make life difficult for the rest of us.

I live in Virginia, and we're considered a Southern state. There are a lot of fundamentalist Christians here, myself included.

I have never seen the "push and push" that you describe occurring here, with the exception of Jehovah's Witnesses and a few other groups. I have also seen the same sort of "push and push" from Mormons in our area, as well as Krishnas, etc. The Moon Church even bought a newspaper in our metro area in order to try to exercise some sort of indirect influence.

My church does not go door to door, nor do we distrubute tracts, nor do we harass people in public, nor do we go around condemning people who don't come to our church and "get saved".

We have an open door. If you want to come in, come in, and you're welcome to listen, stay, or leave as you wish. We don't even ask for your whole name or address or phone number when you come in - you decide when or if you'll ever be comfortable with that.

Our pastor says that although we have a full church, and we sit there in our Sunday best, and we all seem to be happy Christians, we should all realize that among us, even among those who purport to be saved, or somehow blessed by God, there are those of us who are going through the toughest times in their lives.

We're there with the door open for those people. People who need the support. We're not in the business of condeming people, or judging them, or telling them they're going to hell. We're there to help. And we're fundamentalists.
Avia Takes Two
05-07-2005, 18:21
tropicalmontana - that post was beautifully written.
i can't agree with you more.


my life is a case example of jesus being shoved town my throat like a wet towel, with the same people throwing bibles after me and screaming, "love! love!"

the bible is not a sword.


thanks for saying that TM, it was well put.
SimNewtonia
05-07-2005, 18:21
I was not aware Jehova's Witnesses were Christian.

They're close enough to - their Bible is pretty much the same except 'God' is replaced with 'Jehovah'.

Same thing, different name. Their Bible still recognises Jesus. (My nan's one, though she's not the proselytizing (sp?) type, so I have seen one).
Tropical Montana
05-07-2005, 18:28
thanks for saying that TM, it was well put.

you betcha.

truth is, i can hardly stop myself. sometimes i just get something stuck in my craw that's gotta come out somewhere.

thanks for listening and responding, everyone.
Lyric
06-07-2005, 03:21
I'm sorry, when does Jesus teach us to accept sin? Remember the ol' "Go now and sin no more"?

And do we ALSO remember what he said to the crowd that wanted to stone her before he said "Go now and sin no more" to her? Something like..."Let him amongst you without sin cast the first stone." That sound familiar?

Goddamn fundies like YOU though...are just DYING to throw that damn stone...and you won't even acknowledge that you sin...and that, since there is no hierarchy of sin...that your sin is every bit as grievous azs those you are condemning! THAT is what really pisses me the fuck off about fundies like you, Neo.

You just wanna cast stones at everyone else, and ignore or excuse your own sins, bigotry, hatred and prejudice. You seek to make someone else's sins worse than your own, when there IS no heirarchy of sin. sin is sin is sin...and we are ALL guilty of it. Hence the need for Jesus to save us from it.

WE ARE NOT CAPABLE OF SAVING OURSELVES, OR OF LIVING A SIN-FREE LIFE!!

So, why don't you worry more about your own sins, Neo...and less about other people's "sins?" Is it because you refuse to admit your sins? Is it because other people's "sins" gross YOU out?? Well, too fucking bad.

You got a neck that swivels for a reason. Don't fuckin' look!

We did not ASK for you to save us...and how DARE you assume that you have the ability to "save" anyone? Only one person was given THAT ability, and it sure as shit wasn't YOU!!!

Goddamn it, for the last fucking time, Neo...you are pissing me off beyond belief by your absolute refusal to live by the very words you preach unto others! YOU...and people like you...are giving MY good religion a bad fucking name...and it pisses me off.
Lyric
06-07-2005, 03:23
Actually, Paul said that. You know, the same person whom you hate and label a misogynist? The same person whose authority you disregard?

Yeah...but you are in love with Paul...to the point you disregard Jesus. so why don't you heed the words of Paul here?? Or are they just a little too inconvenient for you? Maybe they hit a little closer to home that you are comfortable with?

In my opinion, you are another one of those radical, hating fundies, who have Jesus in their head, and not in their heart.

You are very close, Neo...to joining my list. I may have to put you on it to save my sanity. Because people like you drive me fucking insane.
Lyric
06-07-2005, 03:26
Hate you? Nice strawman you're constructing there, but I hate NO ONE.

Bullshit, Neo.

I call bullshit.

Your SAY you don't hate...but your ACTIONS and your beliefs about other people say that you DO hate.

And I'll tell you 2 things, Neo.

1. If you love me...and treat me as you do...then I am sure as shit glad you DON'T hate me.

2. If you love me...then I ask you to let me go. I do not want your brand of "love." Because your brand of love does not feel like love. It feels a lot more like hate and intolerance to me...and I can do without "love like that, thank you very much.

Now please, Neo, get the fuck outta my LIFE!!!!
JuNii
06-07-2005, 03:54
Tropical Montana, I agree with you on what you wrote.

but What really yanks my chain is when All Christians are lumped into those you rant about.

I'll admit, I do feel passonately about Jesus and God and some of the arguments tend to get my emotions going where I too tend to seem like that. I will say right now, I aplogize to all of you if I've ever acted that way.

It's a fine line to Hate the sin and not the sinner. and I know sometimes, I've crossed it in anger or in zeal.

I apologize for the times I did, and ask for all of your forgiveness for it's not for me or Man to render judgement.
Lyric
06-07-2005, 05:27
It's a fine line to Hate the sin and not the sinner. and I know sometimes, I've crossed it in anger or in zeal.

I apologize for the times I did, and ask for all of your forgiveness for it's not for me or Man to render judgement.

Boy, have you got that one right, JuNii! And a lot of fundamentalists refuse to recognize...or fail to recognize...or acknowledge...that they have crossed that very line!

You, JuNii, have earned some respect from me today, for admitting that you have, at times, crossed that line...and for your apology for having done so!

Though we may disagree on a lot of things, JuNii, you have at least earned some respect from me today. (Are you paying attention, my beta noire who shall remain unnamed?) *cough - Neo Rogolia - cough*

When you attempt to punish another for their sins...or deny them rights based on your own personal religious beliefs...you are crossing that line...AND you are shoing hatred not just for the sin...but for the sinner! I think JuNii, based on your words today...you can understand where I am coming from.

And denying them rights IS punishing them...because you are causing harm and injury to them.

I'm sure that you probably do not advocate for the kind of freedoms and civil rights I do, Junii, but, at the very least, I would expect...by your words...you'd at least not actively oppose us. You recognize, it seems, that it does you NO PERSONAL HARM...and does not cause any harm unto your religion, or your ability to practice it...to grant these rights we seek.

While, I expect, you might not be overjoyed at the prospect, I'm reasonably sure you can see where we are coming from...and that, given you truly do not wish to hate the SINNER...that you'd not advocate injury (be it physical, emotional, mental, or financial) onto them.

I think, JuNii, you recognize that when you do this, you do violence to the injured party. And you seem to truly not wish to do violence...even in the name of your God. And for that, I applaud you.

The fact you have admitted your shortcomings in this area tells me you truly have a desire to become a better person...and for that, you have most definitely earned some respect from me today...even if we may continue to disagree on some of the issues.
JuNii
06-07-2005, 17:53
Boy, have you got that one right, JuNii! And a lot of fundamentalists refuse to recognize...or fail to recognize...or acknowledge...that they have crossed that very line!

You, JuNii, have earned some respect from me today, for admitting that you have, at times, crossed that line...and for your apology for having done so!

Though we may disagree on a lot of things, JuNii, you have at least earned some respect from me today. (Are you paying attention, my beta noire who shall remain unnamed?) *cough - Neo Rogolia - cough*

When you attempt to punish another for their sins...or deny them rights based on your own personal religious beliefs...you are crossing that line...AND you are shoing hatred not just for the sin...but for the sinner! I think JuNii, based on your words today...you can understand where I am coming from.

And denying them rights IS punishing them...because you are causing harm and injury to them.

I'm sure that you probably do not advocate for the kind of freedoms and civil rights I do, Junii, but, at the very least, I would expect...by your words...you'd at least not actively oppose us. You recognize, it seems, that it does you NO PERSONAL HARM...and does not cause any harm unto your religion, or your ability to practice it...to grant these rights we seek.

While, I expect, you might not be overjoyed at the prospect, I'm reasonably sure you can see where we are coming from...and that, given you truly do not wish to hate the SINNER...that you'd not advocate injury (be it physical, emotional, mental, or financial) onto them.

I think, JuNii, you recognize that when you do this, you do violence to the injured party. And you seem to truly not wish to do violence...even in the name of your God. And for that, I applaud you.

The fact you have admitted your shortcomings in this area tells me you truly have a desire to become a better person...and for that, you have most definitely earned some respect from me today...even if we may continue to disagree on some of the issues.Thanks Lyric... but one thing alot of people don't realize is that the "Shoving" is not only being done from the religious side. But it's also being done to the religious side as well. both sides are equally Guilty.

after all, on one side, you have the Religious trying to spread their faith and their code of laws.

On the other, you have... well I'll call them non-religious for simplicity sake, spreading their beliefs and eithic codes and forcing others to "comply," the exact same thing.
Sumamba Buwhan
06-07-2005, 17:56
Dont shove Jesus down my throat either, let him slide in slowly and easily.
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 17:59
Thanks Lyric... but one thing alot of people don't realize is that the "Shoving" is not only being done from the religious side. But it's also being done to the religious side as well. both sides are equally Guilty.

after all, on one side, you have the Religious trying to spread their faith and their code of laws.

On the other, you have... well I'll call them non-religious for simplicity sake, spreading their beliefs and eithic codes and forcing others to "comply," the exact same thing.
What we are trying to do is not force our beliefs on you but push it back so everyone has the right to practice equally

It just looks like we are trying to force ourselves on you because right now there are so many things over the line we have to push it back.

What we are fighting for is the ability to do … practice… believe anything we wish as long as it does not interfere with others rights.

If Christianity was in the minority and their right to practice and live their life and marry who they love and anything else within reason we would ABSOLUTLY be fighting your side. But as is that’s not how this country is right now … it on the large is not Christians that have to worry about their ability to worship and live freely as possible.
Jocabia
06-07-2005, 19:09
What we are trying to do is not force our beliefs on you but push it back so everyone has the right to practice equally

It just looks like we are trying to force ourselves on you because right now there are so many things over the line we have to push it back.

What we are fighting for is the ability to do … practice… believe anything we wish as long as it does not interfere with others rights.

If Christianity was in the minority and their right to practice and live their life and marry who they love and anything else within reason we would ABSOLUTLY be fighting your side. But as is that’s not how this country is right now … it on the large is not Christians that have to worry about their ability to worship and live freely as possible.
UT, I think it's a little of both. God should not be on the money or in the pledge. We shouldn't deny people rights on the basis of 'sin'. At the same time, there is a push by some people to suppress any kind of worship that might offend them. In the US, most efforts to deny religious freedom have failed... so far. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there. In France, their government has surpassed agnostic and become atheist. Why? Well, if anyone can tell me how disallowing the wearing of headscarfs does not inhibit the free practice of culture and religion then I'll retract my statement.

To be succint, you're correct that we have to push back on the things that are over the line while at the same time avoiding backlash (going over the line ourselves). Also, I don't think this 'push' is only by atheists. I am a Christian and am absolutely offended by the use of God on the money and in the Pledge.
Kadmark
06-07-2005, 19:20
If you want me to stop shoving Jesus down my throat, then stop shoving atheism down mine.

Most Christians can't help it, anyway; I mean, Catholics alone represent 1/6th of the world population, just so you know. You're bound to bump into them wherever you go, so stop complaining.
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 19:48
If you want me to stop shoving Jesus down my throat, then stop shoving atheism down mine.

Most Christians can't help it, anyway; I mean, Catholics alone represent 1/6th of the world population, just so you know. You're bound to bump into them wherever you go, so stop complaining.
So you wish the right for Christians to polytheist but complain with others use their right of free speech to express their annoyance? That’s kind of a double standard
Pterodonia
06-07-2005, 19:57
To be fair, any group or person who is not willing to engage in a two-way dialogue is pretty annoying, whether that argument is about politics, religion or the relative superiority of pepperoni pizza over sausage (BTW: It's pepperoni and that's not debateable).

I take issue with that remark. Sausage, definitely.
Katganistan
06-07-2005, 20:01
Perhaps he should rail against proselytizing in general?

To be fair, any group or person who is not willing to engage in a two-way dialogue is pretty annoying, whether that argument is about politics, religion or the relative superiority of pepperoni pizza over sausage (BTW: It's pepperoni and that's not debateable).
You're WRONG! Sausage is the one true PIZZA TOPPING!!!!111111!!+ ;)
New Genoa
06-07-2005, 20:08
Another poor person being oppressed by Christians. I feel SO sorry for you. *muffled laughter* Really, I do feel so bad for you. Seriously, I feel your unimaginable plight! We should set up a relief group for people who have suffered so great injustices (such as hearing the occasional preacher on TV or maybe at home - these are true examples of great Christian oppression, never mind the real ones where someone actually does get oppressed) so they may recover from these psychologically damaging experiences. I, as an agnostic, feel so lucky to have endured all the pains you have encountered, but not be irked. I guess I just have thicker skin. :eek: :confused:
Katganistan
06-07-2005, 20:12
Read 2 Timothy and Titus then come back and tell me that.

To which I answer, Matthew 7:4,5
Wolfrest
06-07-2005, 20:13
My therory is if any person in the world lives a 'healthy' or 'clean' life, with or without going to church, they will have a pretty large chance to get into Heaven. To my mom and I, church is just a place to go, get lectured and talk to people of the same belief and religion as you.

PS: I am sooooo tired of these type of threads about God and Jesus too people! I am a Christian and all but I'm so tried of getting in these discusions :sniper:
Katganistan
06-07-2005, 20:17
Bullshit, Neo.

I call bullshit.

Your SAY you don't hate...but your ACTIONS and your beliefs about other people say that you DO hate.

And I'll tell you 2 things, Neo.

1. If you love me...and treat me as you do...then I am sure as shit glad you DON'T hate me.

2. If you love me...then I ask you to let me go. I do not want your brand of "love." Because your brand of love does not feel like love. It feels a lot more like hate and intolerance to me...and I can do without "love like that, thank you very much.

Now please, Neo, get the fuck outta my LIFE!!!!

Lyric, that is ENOUGH. Disagree civilly.
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Pterodonia
06-07-2005, 20:18
Another poor person being oppressed by Christians. I feel SO sorry for you. *muffled laughter* Really, I do feel so bad for you. Seriously, I feel your unimaginable plight! We should set up a relief group for people who have suffered so great injustices (such as hearing the occasional preacher on TV or maybe at home - these are true examples of great Christian oppression, never mind the real ones where someone actually does get oppressed) so they may recover from these psychologically damaging experiences. I, as an agnostic, feel so lucky to have endured all the pains you have encountered, but not be irked. I guess I just have thicker skin. :eek: :confused:

Are you a Christian, by any chance? If so, that would explain why you don't understand how truly annoying Christian proselytizing can be. In any case, Christians are really the only group in the "free" world that behaves this way, which is why you hear so much about it.
New Genoa
06-07-2005, 20:20
Are you a Christian, by any chance? If so, that would explain why you don't understand how truly annoying Christian proselytizing can be. In any case, Christians are really the only group in the "free" world that behaves this way, which is why you hear so much about it.

No, I'm an agnostic. I went to a Catholic school and live in a town with a shitload of churches. I don't feel annoyed by it at all. The so-called getting shoved down your throat seems overexaggerated to me, save a few nutjobs who I make fun of. They don't annoy me at all, seeing as they're just douchebags to start out with. What annoys me is people who claim they're being oppressed for every which little reason or so and so is being shoved down their throat. Seriously.
Vetalia
06-07-2005, 20:26
Are you a Christian, by any chance? If so, that would explain why you don't understand how truly annoying Christian proselytizing can be. In any case, Christians are really the only group in the "free" world that behaves this way, which is why you hear so much about it.

I'm a Christian, and I understand it very well. I often hear these prosyletyzers make terrible comments about my faith, Catholicism. They also go after many people I know just for being different than them.

Remember, we don't know 100% for sure who or what God is, so only help those who are interested in Christianity learn about the faith, don't try to force it on those whose beliefs satisfy their spiritual needs, because theirs are as equally valid. (In fact, forced conversion is a sin because it causes someone to violate their conscience, a God-given gift).
Pterodonia
06-07-2005, 20:31
I'm a Christian, and I understand it very well. I often hear these prosyletyzers make terrible comments about my faith, Catholicism. They also go after many people I know just for being different than them.

Remember, we don't know 100% for sure who or what God is, so only help those who are interested in Christianity learn about the faith, don't try to force it on those whose beliefs satisfy their spiritual needs, because theirs are as equally valid. (In fact, forced conversion is a sin because it causes someone to violate their conscience, a God-given gift).

Well stated, Vetalia!
Unfree People
06-07-2005, 20:31
No, I'm an agnostic. I went to a Catholic school and live in a town with a shitload of churches. I don't feel annoyed by it at all. The so-called getting shoved down your throat seems overexaggerated to me, save a few nutjobs who I make fun of. They don't annoy me at all, seeing as they're just douchebags to start out with. What annoys me is people who claim they're being oppressed for every which little reason or so and so is being shoved down their throat. Seriously.
I dunno, pushy evangelism is real enough. I myself get an overdose of that at my college in The Middle of Nowere, Oklahoma. We even have an official 'Jesus' week there...
Vetalia
06-07-2005, 20:34
Well stated, Vetalia!

Thanks. :)
Jocabia
06-07-2005, 20:35
You're WRONG! Sausage is the one true PIZZA TOPPING!!!!111111!!+ ;)

You're both wrong. If it used to have a heartbeat and doesn't come from the ocean, go ahead and slap it on there. I'm young so I'm not worrying about heart attacks yet.
Katganistan
06-07-2005, 20:38
You're both wrong. If it used to have a heartbeat and doesn't come from the ocean, go ahead and slap it on there. I'm young so I'm not worrying about heart attacks yet.

GASP! Heretic!
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 20:44
I dunno, pushy evangelism is real enough. I myself get an overdose of that at my college in The Middle of Nowere, Oklahoma. We even have an official 'Jesus' week there...
Eek … we just have to deal with the un-official ones

I got a bible chucked at me last year for walking next to a woman that *ghasp* had a knee length skirt on

She was a whore and I was her ungodly pimp :) (his words not mine)
Vetalia
06-07-2005, 20:48
Eek … we just have to deal with the un-official ones

I got a bible chucked at me last year for walking next to a woman that *ghasp* had a knee length skirt on

She was a whore and I was her ungodly pimp :) (his words not mine)

Now, did he physically throw a Bible at you!? :eek:

Anyway, I guess it's compassionate and loving to call a person you've never met a whore...ungodly pimp is kind of cool sounding, however.
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 20:51
Now, did he physically throw a Bible at you!? :eek:

Anyway, I guess it's compassionate and loving to call a person you've never met a whore...ungodly pimp is kind of cool sounding, however.
Lol yeah a real one … he got kicked off campus and was not allowed back this year

We get all kinds of that stuff around spring time when it is comfortable to be outside
First of Two
06-07-2005, 20:53
The only thing I find more annoying than Evangelical Christians are the Evangelical Atheists. I hate those hypocrites.
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 20:57
The only thing I find more annoying than Evangelical Christians are the Evangelical Atheists. I hate those hypocrites.
How does the stance of there is no god but I am going to shout loudly about it inherently hypocritical?
Vetalia
06-07-2005, 20:57
Lol yeah a real one … he got kicked off campus and was not allowed back this year

We get all kinds of that stuff around spring time when it is comfortable to be outside

Wow... I guess he doesn't mind degrading religious items by throwing them at a person and then on to the ground. He also acted out in anger instead of in moderation, and used God as an excuse to commit a sinful act...he just keeps piling them on!

Oh yeah, springtime. It seems every nut with a viewpoint is out and wandering. Kind of like trolls on NS when school lets out. I know a friend who goes to John Carroll, and he shares a dorm with the Fascist-White Supremacist-Homophobe-Follower of Fred Phelps-Calvinist. Oh, and he also wears a poncho, sings Dixie at 1 AM and enters buildings through their windows. His name is Bryan Reo for reference.
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 21:02
Wow... I guess he doesn't mind degrading religious items by throwing them at a person and then on to the ground. He also acted out in anger instead of in moderation, and used God as an excuse to commit a sinful act...he just keeps piling them on!

Oh yeah, springtime. It seems every nut with a viewpoint is out and wandering. Kind of like trolls on NS when school lets out. I know a friend who goes to John Carroll, and he shares a dorm with the Fascist-White Supremacist-Homophobe-Follower of Fred Phelps-Calvinist. Oh, and he also wears a poncho, sings Dixie at 1 AM and enters buildings through their windows. His name is Bryan Reo for reference.
Yeah must be the spring time … did not seem very reverent to the book … hell don’t think I could bring my agnostic self to do that without being REALLY provoked lol
Vetalia
06-07-2005, 21:05
Yeah must be the spring time … did not seem very reverent to the book … hell don’t think I could bring my agnostic self to do that without being REALLY provoked lol

Makes me wonder what he actually believes. When in doubt, just keep walking is my motto, and it works.
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 21:14
Makes me wonder what he actually believes. When in doubt, just keep walking is my motto, and it works.
Yeah that’s what got the bible chucked at me … I think he would have been fine with a heckling but the ignoring him pissed him off more lol
Vetalia
06-07-2005, 21:16
Yeah that’s what got the bible chucked at me … I think he would have been fine with a heckling but the ignoring him pissed him off more lol

:D

Then just keep doing it. You'll always have the public on your side (unless you're in a really twisted area).
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 21:18
:D

Then just keep doing it. You'll always have the public on your side (unless you're in a really twisted area).
Yeah he was heckling the smokers out there too … that was great … he spent like an hr screaming at them then they handed out cigs … circled around him and hotboxed him lol
Jocabia
06-07-2005, 21:19
GASP! Heretic!

C'est moi
JuNii
06-07-2005, 21:22
Yeah he was heckling the smokers out there too … that was great … he spent like an hr screaming at them then they handed out cigs … circled around him and hotboxed him lol
If the bible hit you, should've had him arrested for Assault and battery.
otherwise, throwing the book at you would just be Assault with intent to harm. :D
Jocabia
06-07-2005, 21:23
If the bible hit you, should've had him arrested for Assault and battery.
otherwise, throwing the book at you would just be Assault with intent to harm. :D

Agreed. By the way, hotboxing him can also be considered assault.
Vetalia
06-07-2005, 21:24
Yeah he was heckling the smokers out there too … that was great … he spent like an hr screaming at them then they handed out cigs … circled around him and hotboxed him lol

I wish I could've seen it... :(
UpwardThrust
06-07-2005, 21:28
I wish I could've seen it... :(
It was worth a giggle lol
Lyric
06-07-2005, 22:29
Thanks Lyric... but one thing alot of people don't realize is that the "Shoving" is not only being done from the religious side. But it's also being done to the religious side as well. both sides are equally Guilty.

after all, on one side, you have the Religious trying to spread their faith and their code of laws.

On the other, you have... well I'll call them non-religious for simplicity sake, spreading their beliefs and eithic codes and forcing others to "comply," the exact same thing.

Well, if you are talking about the gay marriage thing...NO ONE is shoving or forcing you...or your church...to comply with jack shit.

YOU, as an individual, would still have the right not to consider a same-sex marriage as valid (and I doubt the couple would care what you thought.)

Your CHURCH would still have the right to refuse to perform ceremonies, or otherwise acknowledge that couple's marriage as valid (and again, I doubt the couple would give a shit what your church thought.)

Your CHURCH would still be free to refuse membership to anyone is so chose to refuse membership to.

YOU would still be able to live, worship, and live as you so chose, without any interference.

The only difference is that Jim and Steve would be looked upon EQUALLY as a couple, by the eyes of the law, and would have the same marital benefits between them that are conferred onto any other married couple.

It wouldn't affect your life, your church, your belief system, or manner of worship in any way. They would still be gay...whether or not they were allowed to marry. They would still be a couple, whether or not they were allowed to marry. They would still build a life together.

The only difference is that they would no longer be second-class citizens, and they, too, would be able to protect communal property, and care for one another in sickness and in health. What is such a bad thing about that?

How does it negatively impact you or your church, or your belief system when you, and your church, are still free to refuse to acknowledge them as a legitimate married couple, are still free to refuse to perform ceremonies for them...and are still free to refuse them membership?

Sorry, but if ANYONE is "shoving" on this particular issue (gay marriage) it's the religious folk...not the non-religious folk (non-religious meaning not of YOUR SPECIFIC RELIGION - since that is how I am interpreting your use of the word "non-religious)
Lyric
06-07-2005, 22:37
UT, I think it's a little of both. God should not be on the money or in the pledge. We shouldn't deny people rights on the basis of 'sin'. At the same time, there is a push by some people to suppress any kind of worship that might offend them. In the US, most efforts to deny religious freedom have failed... so far. But that doesn't mean they aren't out there. In France, their government has surpassed agnostic and become atheist. Why? Well, if anyone can tell me how disallowing the wearing of headscarfs does not inhibit the free practice of culture and religion then I'll retract my statement.

To be succint, you're correct that we have to push back on the things that are over the line while at the same time avoiding backlash (going over the line ourselves). Also, I don't think this 'push' is only by atheists. I am a Christian and am absolutely offended by the use of God on the money and in the Pledge.

Well, the use of God on the money doesn't bother me, because I don't have to look at it, rerad it...or believe in it in order to SPEND that money. So I could really care less about the money.

The Pledge, on the other hand...now there I have a problem, because there are many cases in which you are compelled or coerced into reciting the Pledge, and the Pledge currently contains giving lip service to a monotheism.

This is against the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, because it was a 1954 law, signed by Eisenhower...that added "under God" to the Pledge "in order to differentiate orselves from Godless Communists." That is a direct violation of the law, to have added those words.

Besides, I feel a person should be able to pay homage to his flag, his country, and his government, without also paying lip service to anyone's god or God.

By the way, I happen to be a Unitarian Christian.

I have a problem with the Pledge, because it clearly violates the law. The money doesn't bother me. Again, I don't have to look at it, read it, or believe in it...in order to SPEND that money.

So here's my deal to the evangelicals on this one. We will leave the money alone if you will restore the original Pledge. And, if you want, YOU can continue to add "under God" to the Pledge all you want...as long as you don't make others do it.
Lyric
06-07-2005, 22:38
If you want me to stop shoving Jesus down my throat, then stop shoving atheism down mine.

Most Christians can't help it, anyway; I mean, Catholics alone represent 1/6th of the world population, just so you know. You're bound to bump into them wherever you go, so stop complaining.

So your advice to those of us who are offended by your shoving is "Sit down and shut up?"

That's the best you can offer?

And yes, Christians damn well CAN help it, too...they just don't WANT to help it.
Lyric
06-07-2005, 22:40
So you wish the right for Christians to polytheist but complain with others use their right of free speech to express their annoyance? That’s kind of a double standard

Ummmm, Upward...I think the word you were looking for is "proseltyze" not "polytheist."

Proseltyze is a verb meaning "to preach."
Polytheist is a noun meaning "one who believes in multiple dieties."
Lyric
06-07-2005, 22:43
Another poor person being oppressed by Christians. I feel SO sorry for you. *muffled laughter* Really, I do feel so bad for you. Seriously, I feel your unimaginable plight! We should set up a relief group for people who have suffered so great injustices (such as hearing the occasional preacher on TV or maybe at home - these are true examples of great Christian oppression, never mind the real ones where someone actually does get oppressed) so they may recover from these psychologically damaging experiences. I, as an agnostic, feel so lucky to have endured all the pains you have encountered, but not be irked. I guess I just have thicker skin. :eek: :confused:

Spoken, I presume by someone who is not gay...and thus has not truly felt the oppression brought by some Christians. and before you slam me, note I said SOME Christians.

I will say I find a whole lot less of the oppression and bigotry in my new home in Pennsylvania, than I did in my old home in Texas!
Lyric
06-07-2005, 22:45
Lyric, that is ENOUGH. Disagree civilly.
Official WARNING for flaming here and in these posts: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=9197355&postcount=78
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Fine, Katganistan. There are some people who I am just not able to disagree with civilly. In which case there is but one solution, which I will now employ. I will not be punished because someone else angered me beyond my ability to tolerate.
Great ZonZorroland
06-07-2005, 23:02
Not to be a prick, but i got a question:
What happened to Jesus after he was revived?

P.S. Pepperoni and Sausage are dandy, but Canadian Bacon is THE best.
Neo Rogolia
06-07-2005, 23:06
To which I answer, Matthew 7:4,5


That applies to people condemning others while being guilty of the same sins. None of us are perfect, but we are to rebuke those who will not repent and cease sinning.
Dakini
06-07-2005, 23:16
I didnt' read the rest of the thread, but has anyone pointed out the obvious choking hazard in the title yet?
Neo Rogolia
06-07-2005, 23:22
And do we ALSO remember what he said to the crowd that wanted to stone her before he said "Go now and sin no more" to her? Something like..."Let him amongst you without sin cast the first stone." That sound familiar?

Goddamn fundies like YOU though...are just DYING to throw that damn stone...and you won't even acknowledge that you sin...and that, since there is no hierarchy of sin...that your sin is every bit as grievous azs those you are condemning! THAT is what really pisses me the fuck off about fundies like you, Neo.

You just wanna cast stones at everyone else, and ignore or excuse your own sins, bigotry, hatred and prejudice. You seek to make someone else's sins worse than your own, when there IS no heirarchy of sin. sin is sin is sin...and we are ALL guilty of it. Hence the need for Jesus to save us from it.

WE ARE NOT CAPABLE OF SAVING OURSELVES, OR OF LIVING A SIN-FREE LIFE!!

So, why don't you worry more about your own sins, Neo...and less about other people's "sins?" Is it because you refuse to admit your sins? Is it because other people's "sins" gross YOU out?? Well, too fucking bad.

You got a neck that swivels for a reason. Don't fuckin' look!

We did not ASK for you to save us...and how DARE you assume that you have the ability to "save" anyone? Only one person was given THAT ability, and it sure as shit wasn't YOU!!!

Goddamn it, for the last fucking time, Neo...you are pissing me off beyond belief by your absolute refusal to live by the very words you preach unto others! YOU...and people like you...are giving MY good religion a bad fucking name...and it pisses me off.





Ephesians 4:29 29Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers.


Ephesians 5:3-7 3But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know,[a] that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not be partakers with them.
The Four Blue Sigils
06-07-2005, 23:25
if Heaven is gonna be filled with morons like that, I might just choose Door Number 2 voluntarily, rather than spend eternity around a group of people that, quite frankly, make my skin crawl.

I would like to point out to everyone that when everyone gets judged, God will not say "all *group of people* get in, all *other group* dont, ect."
I also would like to point out that most biblewaveing, yell untill red in the face people probably havent actually read the Bible.
The word "hate" simply wasn't in Jesus' dictionary. God doesn't hate, thats all there is to it.
the praise "the highway to hell is paved with good intentions" is totall bull and I suggest whoever says that read the bible
people have no idea what God is thinking, including who gets into heaven.
real Christians can and do have the self control to not force people to agree with them. note I said real
"Preach to everyone at all times, use words only when you have to"-St. Francis
I wonder how a fanatic would react to the question "when did you last go to adoration?" I bet they wouldn't answer you.
on the other side of the coin, when asked "have you been saved?" simply answer "yes" then close the door, keep walking, find a different seat, whatever.

sorry about the above not being concise, linear, and all that. I lack sleep.
there is a good unifying idea there, I just can't find it
note-sorry, I only read the first 2-3 pages. as i said above, I lack sleep
Neo Rogolia
06-07-2005, 23:28
I would like to point out to everyone that when everyone gets judged, God will not say "all *group of people* get in, all *other group* dont, ect."
I also would like to point out that most biblewaveing, yell untill red in the face people probably havent actually read the Bible.
The word "hate" simply wasn't in Jesus' dictionary. God doesn't hate, thats all there is to it.
the praise "the highway to hell is paved with good intentions" is totall bull and I suggest whoever says that read the bible
people have no idea what God is thinking, including who gets into heaven.
real Christians can and do have the self control to not force people to agree with them. note I said real
"Preach to everyone at all times, use words only when you have to"-St. Francis
I wonder how a fanatic would react to the question "when did you last go to adoration?" I bet they wouldn't answer you.
on the other side of the coin, when asked "have you been saved?" simply answer "yes" then close the door, keep walking, find a different seat, whatever.

sorry about the above not being concise, linear, and all that. I lack sleep.
there is a good unifying idea there, I just can't find it



But the highway to hell IS paved with good intentions in many cases. Many many many sins have been committed by people who intended to do good.
Jocabia
06-07-2005, 23:35
That applies to people condemning others while being guilty of the same sins. None of us are perfect, but we are to rebuke those who will not repent and cease sinning.

No, it doesn't. It applies to not judging others because you are a sinner as well. If you read it in the original language the same word was not used for what was in each person's eyes, which debunks your claim.
WhoyousayIam
06-07-2005, 23:37
What I'am getting tired of is the Anti-Godly slamming those who do believe. What have we christians done, other than choose to live respectful lives, raise our families to know right from wrong, work hard and love one another.

The world has alot more non-christian people in it, than those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and savior. So who is getting attacked by who?

If you want to not believe what I do, fine that is your business, but don't stick you nose in my business and tell me I can't worship Jesus anywhere, anytime I choose to do so. And if that offends you tough, you've probably got a big chip on your shoulder.
Roshni
06-07-2005, 23:41
Don't shove Jesus down my throat
Alright, but you're missing out! He tastes even better with a little garlic.
Neo Rogolia
06-07-2005, 23:42
No, it doesn't. It applies to not judging others because you are a sinner as well. If you read it in the original language the same word was not used for what was in each person's eyes, which debunks your claim.



That would run contrary to the commands to rebuke sinners we have been given. Do you think Christ wants people to continue living in sin because Christians would "offend" them by telling them what they are doing is wrong, or do you think He would want us to spread the truth and call all sinners to repentance? If there were no people to admonish sin and preach Christ's authority, then Christianity would cease to spread as each person would do "that which was right in his own heart." Which is why you cannot reject the epistles of Paul.


Edit: /sprays Dempublicent's-quote-editing-repellant
The Four Blue Sigils
06-07-2005, 23:46
I may not fully understand but to the extent of my ability I shall provide a few examples.
someone wants to kill someone but is restrained by an outside force from doing so, he doesn't think he is in the wrong and still wants to kill the person. his sin is already as great as if he killed the person

someone wants to help someone. in the attempt to help, the person is killed. it is the helping persons fault, the other person dying from his help didn't enter his mind. that man has not sinned, he will probably get convicted of manslaughter and will need therapy thou.

as a "controlled test" these two people were without any sin previous to their respecive events. this is possible only because it is just theoretical.

you cant tell me that the 1st person could even possibly have less sin than the 2nd
Sumamba Buwhan
06-07-2005, 23:48
What I'am getting tired of is the Anti-Godly slamming those who do believe. What have we christians done, other than choose to live respectful lives, raise our families to know right from wrong, work hard and love one another.

The world has alot more non-christian people in it, than those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and savior. So who is getting attacked by who?

If you want to not believe what I do, fine that is your business, but don't stick you nose in my business and tell me I can't worship Jesus anywhere, anytime I choose to do so. And if that offends you tough, you've probably got a big chip on your shoulder.

If you would actually read the thread you would see that noone is offended that Christians are worshipping Jesus. lol

People are sick of being preached to and yes Christians are guilty of condemning non-Christians (as well as other Christians of different sects) to hell regularly.
Jocabia
06-07-2005, 23:51
That would run contrary to the commands to rebuke sinners we have been given. Do you think Christ wants people to continue living in sin because Christians would "offend" them by telling them what they are doing is wrong, or do you think He would want us to spread the truth and call all sinners to repentance? If there were no people to admonish sin and preach Christ's authority, then Christianity would cease to spread as each person would do "that which was right in his own heart." Which is why you cannot reject the epistles of Paul.


Edit: /sprays Dempublicent's-quote-editing-repellant

Jesus would have you live your life according to his teachings and preach to others through actions, not hate-filled accusations. Jesus would show those who are lost love and compassion and let them come to you for understanding and to learn about repentance. This is how faith was spread by Christ. He didn't approach people or seek to change the law. He just made himself visible and started talking. I make my faith known to people and I live a good life and I find that many people choose to talk to me about my faith and I have inspired many to read the Bible simply by talking to them. I have never converted anyone. EVER. I have shown them a way to hear the message Jesus Christ delivered and they find their own way. I believe this is quite simply the way Jesus intended it.
Lyric
06-07-2005, 23:54
What I'am getting tired of is the Anti-Godly slamming those who do believe. What have we christians done, other than choose to live respectful lives, raise our families to know right from wrong, work hard and love one another.

The world has alot more non-christian people in it, than those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and savior. So who is getting attacked by who?

If you want to not believe what I do, fine that is your business, but don't stick you nose in my business and tell me I can't worship Jesus anywhere, anytime I choose to do so. And if that offends you tough, you've probably got a big chip on your shoulder.

What have you Chriatians done? I'll tell you what you have done! You have tried to force your religious dogma into our civil law code, and tried to force non-believers to live according to YOUR law.

Likewise, we ask y'all not to stick your noses into OUR business, and our bedrooms, and leave us the hell alone!

Why can't we simply agree to disagree? Why can't you just live as you see fit...and let other live...and LOVE...as THEY see fit?
Neo Rogolia
07-07-2005, 00:13
Jesus would have you live your life according to his teachings and preach to others through actions, not hate-filled accusations. Jesus would show those who are lost love and compassion and let them come to you for understanding and to learn about repentance. This is how faith was spread by Christ. He didn't approach people or seek to change the law. He just made himself visible and started talking. I make my faith known to people and I live a good life and I find that many people choose to talk to me about my faith and I have inspired many to read the Bible simply by talking to them. I have never converted anyone. EVER. I have shown them a way to hear the message Jesus Christ delivered and they find their own way. I believe this is quite simply the way Jesus intended it.



This is wrong actually, His commands to preach and spread the Word were to do it actively, not passively.



Mark 16:14-20 14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
The Four Blue Sigils
07-07-2005, 00:17
I knew that I forgot something earlier. the reason church is important to christians. most people I know don't get this at all. nearly all christians I know dont get it. the reason to go to mas is not to pray or get preached at. The purpous is the Eucharist. We believe, thru transubstantiation, that Jesus is alive in that bit of bread and cup of wine. you are eating jesus. allow me to elaborate. it is true that the bread and wine chemically don't change. they are still materially what they were. the best way to describe it is that it is dying in reverse. when you die, your body is chemically the same (before decomposing) it is exactly the same but something is missing, something left. even if your brain and heart started working again that thing is still gone (barring a few astounding cases). just the same way, something jesus-ish is in the bread and wine that was not there before. for christians it is very important to get that. this is stressed in a quote from the bible (i dont memorize book chapter ect) "unless you eat the flesh (the bread with jesus essence) and drink the blood (wine with jesus essence) you have no life within you." insidently this was a contributing factor to christianity being persecuted by the romans. the romans thought they were a canabalistic blood-cult!
Catalyptica
07-07-2005, 00:26
What have you Chriatians done? I'll tell you what you have done! You have tried to force your religious dogma into our civil law code, and tried to force non-believers to live according to YOUR law.
They have done much more than that. And some people (note: not all, but some) have done far, far worse things in the name of religion than those mentioned above.

I have no problem with people who are christian. I have christian friends. But, all I ask is that we ALL keep our superstitions to ourselves (unless, of course, there some form of organized debate going on) :rolleyes:
Tropical Montana
07-07-2005, 13:30
What I'am getting tired of is the Anti-Godly slamming those who do believe. What have we christians done, other than choose to live respectful lives, raise our families to know right from wrong, work hard and love one another.

am not Anti-Godly. I am all for people seeking God and trying to live godly lives. I just don't need someone telling me that according to THEM, i am NOT living a godly life. what they have done is to JUDGE ME. That's not 'loving one another' if you ask me.


The world has alot more non-christian people in it, than those who believe in Jesus as their Lord and savior. So who is getting attacked by who?

Um...i was being attacked by a christian. Seems the minority is very vocal.

If you want to not believe what I do, fine that is your business, but don't stick you nose in my business and tell me I can't worship Jesus anywhere, anytime I choose to do so. And if that offends you tough, you've probably got a big chip on your shoulder.

Actually, you can worship Jesus anywhere, anytime you want. I even told the lady that i was glad she found comfort in Jesus, and if praying to Jesus made her feel better, then by all means do so. I even admitted i might be wrong about what i believe. I am very much Live And Let Live.

My chip on my shoulder was over their inability to LET ME LIVE my own way. I was not trying to convince her to believe as i do. I think faith is a personal issue that only the person themselves can choose. I believe that God speaks to each of us in different ways. Some hear the word of God through Jesus. Some hear it in the buzz of a hummingbird's wings.

Why should i be told that the voice of God that i hear is actually the Devil just because i don't call it "jesus"?
Tropical Montana
07-07-2005, 13:38
I'm a Christian, and I understand it very well. I often hear these prosyletyzers make terrible comments about my faith, Catholicism. They also go after many people I know just for being different than them.

Remember, we don't know 100% for sure who or what God is, so only help those who are interested in Christianity learn about the faith, don't try to force it on those whose beliefs satisfy their spiritual needs, because theirs are as equally valid. (In fact, forced conversion is a sin because it causes someone to violate their conscience, a God-given gift).

OOOH, i would love to have a book and verse of where it says in the bible that its a sin to force conversion because it causes someone to violate their conscience.

Man, that would be GREAT ammunition against the proselytizers.

Can anyone help me out here?
UpwardThrust
07-07-2005, 14:10
Ummmm, Upward...I think the word you were looking for is "proseltyze" not "polytheist."

Proseltyze is a verb meaning "to preach."
Polytheist is a noun meaning "one who believes in multiple dieties."
Thanks was typing in word and it autocorrected without me seeing it ... thanks
Lyric
07-07-2005, 16:30
Thanks was typing in word and it autocorrected without me seeing it ... thanks

No problem. As I said, I was able to understand what you actually meant, from the context of what you posted. but it might not have been clear to others, so I thought I'd help out, because what you posted was pretty much dead-on accurate!
Neo Rogolia
07-07-2005, 16:36
OOOH, i would love to have a book and verse of where it says in the bible that its a sin to force conversion because it causes someone to violate their conscience.

Man, that would be GREAT ammunition against the proselytizers.

Can anyone help me out here?



Umm....forced conversion? Since when is proselytizing "forcing" someone to convert to your religion? Are you suggesting that everyone is a fool who can't defend their own position and thus will be forced to convert to the religion in question? The days of misguided "Christians" holding a sword to another individual's throat and demanding they convert are long over, so stop making fallacious accusations.
Tropical Montana
07-07-2005, 21:31
Umm....forced conversion? Since when is proselytizing "forcing" someone to convert to your religion? Are you suggesting that everyone is a fool who can't defend their own position and thus will be forced to convert to the religion in question? The days of misguided "Christians" holding a sword to another individual's throat and demanding they convert are long over, so stop making fallacious accusations.

force comes in many disguises.

the brainwashing done by cults can be considered force.

holding someone in a room where they cannot reasonably leave and badgering them for hours on end is also a form of force.

continuing to proselytize when i have already stated my unwillingness to convert is also trying to wield force.

granted, it is not deadly force, but it is force, nonetheless.
Vetalia
07-07-2005, 21:44
Umm....forced conversion? Since when is proselytizing "forcing" someone to convert to your religion? Are you suggesting that everyone is a fool who can't defend their own position and thus will be forced to convert to the religion in question? The days of misguided "Christians" holding a sword to another individual's throat and demanding they convert are long over, so stop making fallacious accusations.

Prosyletizing is "forced" when you attempt to convert someone who doesn't want to convert due to reasons of conscience. A religious Jew, or Muslim, or anyone who is dedicated to their faith will have this.

"Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith" (1 Timothy 1:5).

"... Whatever is not from faith is sin" (Romans 14:23). (The earlier part of the verse uses eating as an example, but this part applies to everything)

Thus, when a person is not willing to convert due to consciental reasons, converting them is not acting in good conscience. If they are acting against their conscience, they are not pure of heart and thus do not have sincere faith. And when you do not have sincere faith, you are acting from sin.
Lyric
08-07-2005, 02:24
force comes in many disguises.

the brainwashing done by cults can be considered force.

holding someone in a room where they cannot reasonably leave and badgering them for hours on end is also a form of force.

continuing to proselytize when i have already stated my unwillingness to convert is also trying to wield force.

granted, it is not deadly force, but it is force, nonetheless.

Let's not forget the many forms of ECONOMIC force...for example, denying jobs to someone who does not believe a certain way, etc. Can we say employment discrimination, people? And let's not pretend it doesn't exist!

A friend of mine on these boards once related a story about being interviewed by, I believe it was Ace Hardware...and they up and asked him what church he went to. And when he answered, they told him not to bother, he was not going to get hired.

And a personal friend of mine, about ten years ago, kept getting passed over for promotions. When he asked why, he was asked why he did not go to church. My friend replied that he did, in fact, go to church, that he was an Episcopalian. To which the district manager had replied, "No, I mean a REAL church."

So it does exist. No, maybe not immediate, deadly force...but, whether you put the iron fist in someone's face, or you put the iron fist in a velvet glove first...you are still using force to attempt to convert people, and it's wrong.