NationStates Jolt Archive

I've checked around law school specific boards a lot, but I thought I'd ask the question here:

Of anybody who's in or just out of a U.S. ABA approved Juris Doctorate, how are you finding the job market to be?

I've got a 169 LSAT and a crap GPA (2.91 LSAC adjusted), so I think I could get into a low or maybe mid-tier law school, but if the field of practicing lawyers is super-saturated, I don't want to invest the time and debt, you know?

I know, most will point out specialties, niche-practice, patent law, etc, but if I'm looking for those "hot" areas of practice, and there are 40,000 fresh bar admitees looking for the same thing, it seems like even the varied industry of law can only absorb so many. Anybody living this for real, and what are you seeing?

Your LSAT and undergrad GPA are not necessarily predictors of how well you will do in law school. They certainly are not good predictors of what kind of job you will get out of law school.

Moreover, it is easy to oversweat the law school "tier" thing. Yes, it can be used by employers as a screening device, but not strictly and not to the degree that some outside the profession may think.

It can even be an advantage to become a big fish in a small pond. Think about it.

The most important thing is whether you really want to study and practice law. If you really enjoy the material/work, you will do well. If you don't, you may still do well, but it is much less likely. If you are just looking for a way to make money and don't like law, don't bother.

BTW, IP is considered one of the "hotest" and most competitive areas of practice.

Hmm...not sure I want to be even a big fish with a Cat out there...

I guess my concern is, I've got friends who are truly passionate about their discipline and love what they studied, but they still can't find a job in it (although they studied fine arts, music, etc, so its not a perfect comparison).

I've worked as the staff accountant for an IP Law Firm, and their volume was strong and steady, but they were headed by a high-end partner who was connected to the top in all the major industries here. And when they interviewed for junior associates, I noticed they had a phone book of apps. My old man used to say "there's always room for the best", but it seems that idea has its limits. If there are just too many people with a certain kind of training, it seems like a lot of them just won't be needed.

I guess if I were truly meant to pratice law, I'd have already applied. I once asked a writer I knew how to decide if writing is a good field for a person. He said, "Well, try to stop writing, and if you can, you shouldn't be a writer".

Oh well. With my crappy credit, I probably wouldn't pass the "character and fitness" standard for the Bar. Anyway, thanks for the information, Cat.

Oh well. With my crappy credit, I probably wouldn't pass the "character and fitness" standard for the Bar. Anyway, thanks for the information, Cat.

You're weclome.

Just for the record, it is highly unlikely your credit history would pose a significant barrier to getting admitted to the Bar.

I'm pre-law, graduating in six months. I'm in the same boat as the original poster, but every law professor I've had tells me there's plenty of territory for the little guy, even here in California, one of the most lawyer-congested states in the Union.

One of my professors suggested we move to a medium-sized town, call around, and price ourselves 10% higher than the next most expensive guy in town. That's what he did, and made a mint at it. Interesting idea. :p

I'm pre-law, graduating in six months. I'm in the same boat as the original poster, but every law professor I've had tells me there's plenty of territory for the little guy, even here in California, one of the most lawyer-congested states in the Union.

One of my professors suggested we move to a medium-sized town, call around, and price ourselves 10% higher than the next most expensive guy in town. That's what he did, and made a mint at it. Interesting idea. :p

Do you mind me asking what field of law you're most into? You mentioned the "little guy", do you find yourself drawn to a small independent practice?

Cat-Tribe, does credit really not effect your Bar app? I had read that taking a long time with your bills or discharging debts in court showed a lack of responsibility...also, I've had 2 dozen jobs in my life, so its hardly a stable work history to go with it. I know you (probably) aren't the character and fitness commissioner for a State Bar, but don't you think it would at least be dubious?

Do you mind me asking what field of law you're most into? You mentioned the "little guy", do you find yourself drawn to a small independent practice?

Cat-Tribe, does credit really not effect your Bar app? I had read that taking a long time with your bills or discharging debts in court showed a lack of responsibility...also, I've had 2 dozen jobs in my life, so its hardly a stable work history to go with it. I know you (probably) aren't the character and fitness commissioner for a State Bar, but don't you think it would at least be dubious?

Sorry, for the slow response, I missed that you had responded with a question for me. (Perahps when this is bumped you can get a response from Whispering Legs or some of the other lawyers in these forums.)

I am not, as you guessed, an official for any State Bar. I've been admitted to practice in California for about 8 years.

The restrictiveness with which a State Bar looks at things for the Moral Character Determination varies by state -- some use it and the Bar Exam as a means to limit competition, rather than just a matter of qualifications.

But, in general, you can have declared bankruptcy and still get admitted to the Bar. Your credit history is not irrelevant, but it is unlikely to be prohibitive. I certainly know lots of people with bad credit that got admitted to the Bar. In fact, it doesn't sound like your credit history is any worse than mine was.

I know many individuals that had been convicted of crimes and still got admitted to the Bar. (Most were relatively minor. The one I know of with a major conviction had extenuating circumstances and had a significant battle.)

And I'm not sure I've ever heard that a stable work history was a prerequisite. Many people work lots of various jobs in their teens, 20's, etc. That would be fairly normal.

You aren't really required to be a saint. :)

I'm busy applying for law schools myself, so I don't know how valid my impressions are, but this is what I think. There are a lot of lawyers out there, but there's a lot of everything out there. I've gotten a lot advisers/friends/random people telling me that with the debt you acquire from law school, you'll never be able to find a good enough job to pay it back in a reasonable amount of time. My dad's the biggest critic of my plan to go to law school, but.... I've worked for lawyers and in law firms, and I've never seen anything there to tell me that I'll have trouble getting a job. It depends on what you want to do, of course, and if you're expecting to get-rich-quick like the quintessential TV lawyer, you might want to rethink that.

If you're interested in law school, worry less about what happens afterwards and more about what happens before and during. Another thing to consider is that law school will prepare you for a heck of a lot more than just being a lawyer in some private practice... with a JD, you can do anything from teaching to politics.

Do you mind me asking what field of law you're most into? You mentioned the "little guy", do you find yourself drawn to a small independent practice?


Not certain. Business law of some kind. I'm a long way off from having to choose definitively. I am, in any event, hoping to go into business for myself in some capacity or another.

The one question I have that someone might be able to answer has to do with the application process in California.. the LSAT booklet I have says that all applications must be processed under their guidelines. That's not a problem. But there was a footnote about "W" and "WU" grades lowering your GPA as considered by their process. That would mean that any class I have dropped, even if on the first day, would lower my adjusted GPA. If I remember correctly, it was a 0.1 reduction. So if I maintain my 3.7, but with four or five "W" marks, I would be downgraded to a 3.2, possibly. That concerns me a bit. Maybe someone has heard of this. I don't have the booklet with me. :confused:

Not certain. Business law of some kind. I'm a long way off from having to choose definitively. I am, in any event, hoping to go into business for myself in some capacity or another.

The one question I have that someone might be able to answer has to do with the application process in California.. the LSAT booklet I have says that all applications must be processed under their guidelines. That's not a problem. But there was a footnote about "W" and "WU" grades lowering your GPA as considered by their process. That would mean that any class I have dropped, even if on the first day, would lower my adjusted GPA. If I remember correctly, it was a 0.1 reduction. So if I maintain my 3.7, but with four or five "W" marks, I would be downgraded to a 3.2, possibly. That concerns me a bit. Maybe someone has heard of this. I don't have the booklet with me. :confused:

Yeah, LSAC hammers you on calculating GPA. For one thing, they include every college class you've done (up to being granted your four year degree). So, a bunch of crap classes I had from ten years back when I was briefly an engineering major another school dragged me down. According to what LSAC told me, part of it has to do with what your school defines a "W" as.

Other information might be found here: http://www.lsac.org/LSAC.asp?url=/lsac/faqs-and-support-lsdas.asp#9.

I'll tell you this. I had a 3.15 at my degree granting institution, but after about 3 "Withdrawals" and a bunch of F's and NC's from when I dropped out of a different college in 1993, it brought it down to 2.91. I don't think they knock off a .1 for each "W", though. Mine would have been adjusted much lower if they did.

I'm busy applying for law schools myself, so I don't know how valid my impressions are, but this is what I think. There are a lot of lawyers out there, but there's a lot of everything out there. I've gotten a lot advisers/friends/random people telling me that with the debt you acquire from law school, you'll never be able to find a good enough job to pay it back in a reasonable amount of time. My dad's the biggest critic of my plan to go to law school, but.... I've worked for lawyers and in law firms, and I've never seen anything there to tell me that I'll have trouble getting a job. It depends on what you want to do, of course, and if you're expecting to get-rich-quick like the quintessential TV lawyer, you might want to rethink that.

If you're interested in law school, worry less about what happens afterwards and more about what happens before and during. Another thing to consider is that law school will prepare you for a heck of a lot more than just being a lawyer in some private practice... with a JD, you can do anything from teaching to politics.

You make a point about there being a lot of everything. Every year, there seems to be a new glut of something, whether its lawyers or programmers or graphic artists, but if everything moves in cycles, gluts become shortages and back again. My problem is, I'd like to work in public criminal defense, but
I've read that this is a popular field with intense competition for a very limited number of positions (I would imagine this is due to lack of budget in the Public Defenders Office, not a lack of people needing a public defender).

It sounds like you're very committed and realistic about law school, which is probably the critical thing. My LSAT is supposedly good for another 3 or 4 years at most schools, so I have some time to resolve my doubts and think about it. But if I'm still feeling this nebulous about it by then, I probably wasn't meant for the law.

You aren't really required to be a saint. :)

Heehee, good thing. I've heard that even under the new fast-track rules, you still have to be dead to be a Saint...

You make a point about there being a lot of everything. Every year, there seems to be a new glut of something, whether its lawyers or programmers or graphic artists, but if everything moves in cycles, gluts become shortages and back again. My problem is, I'd like to work in public criminal defense, but
I've read that this is a popular field with intense competition for a very limited number of positions (I would imagine this is due to lack of budget in the Public Defenders Office, not a lack of people needing a public defender).

It sounds like you're very committed and realistic about law school, which is probably the critical thing. My LSAT is supposedly good for another 3 or 4 years at most schools, so I have some time to resolve my doubts and think about it. But if I'm still feeling this nebulous about it by then, I probably wasn't meant for the law.
I'm not interested in criminal law, so I don't know a lot about it, but I want to go into public service - working abroad, or on the international level of some sort - and everywhere I go, I hear that the public sector doesn't have enough people interested in it, and that less than half of the people who start law school with the intention of working in the public sector change their minds and end up going private, because there's just not a lot of money there. I don't think you'd have a hard time of it, but then, like I said, I've not done any reseach on that topic.

About your doubts, don't write off law school just because you're uncertain. Frankly the reason I'm choosing law school is because I cant find a better option, not because I'm passionate about being a lawyer or anything.

You make a point about there being a lot of everything. Every year, there seems to be a new glut of something, whether its lawyers or programmers or graphic artists, but if everything moves in cycles, gluts become shortages and back again. My problem is, I'd like to work in public criminal defense, but
I've read that this is a popular field with intense competition for a very limited number of positions (I would imagine this is due to lack of budget in the Public Defenders Office, not a lack of people needing a public defender).

It sounds like you're very committed and realistic about law school, which is probably the critical thing. My LSAT is supposedly good for another 3 or 4 years at most schools, so I have some time to resolve my doubts and think about it. But if I'm still feeling this nebulous about it by then, I probably wasn't meant for the law.

Oh, I should have asked you what field you were considering.

Criminal defense -- particularly public criminal defense -- is hard work, but there is not a shortage of need for public defenders.

There tends to be very high turnover in public defender offices. The vast majority of those who graduate from law school would not practice that kind of law. (Good for you, though. I think criminal defense is a higher calling than most law practice.)

I would be even less worried about finding work if you are interested in criminal defense.

(As to federal loans, I am not sure I believe there are programs that help forgive loans on the basis of public service such as public defender or prosecutor positions. There at least have been such programs in the past. Check the Federal Student Loan website. And, one advantage of a so-called lower tier school is that it likely costs far less.)

Moreoever, I hope I did not give you (or seem to endorse) the idea that your concerns about the wisdom of going to law school means you probably should not go.

My point was whether you were passionate about the law. Have you studied it at all as an undergrad? Have you had any exposure to law practice? To reading and understanding cases? If so and you liked it, that is what is important.

That you are cautious and thoughtful about your career plans is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Moreoever, I hope I did not give you (or seem to endorse) the idea that your concerns about the wisdom of going to law school means you probably should not go.

My point was whether you were passionate about the law. Have you studied it at all as an undergrad? Have you had any exposure to law practice? To reading and understanding cases? If so and you liked it, that is what is important..

No problem, I know you weren't endorsing any particular action (from what I've read, you seem the sort that doesn't make emphatic declarative/imperative statements without lengthy and thorough research/consideration). I've noticed the other people responding also don't rush to any particular position. I think thats probably encouraging to see in lawyers/students.

My only undergrad experience was in tax law and business law, which touches, in a very rudimentary way, on torts, contracts, and statutory/regulatory enforcement. I enjoyed it, but had only one semester that included any kind of research into precedent, common law, etc.

I'll say this, I put a lot of stock into the statement that what you like doing should be a pivotal factor. I thought accounting would give me a nice living, and for a while it did, while making me so miserable I couldn't stay in it.

It is interesting to me what Unfree People mentioned about a J.D. qualifying one for things other than the conventional practice of law. I guess there are a lot of fulfilling jobs you could do with that if you couldn't find a practice right away. Maybe I've put too much stock in anecdotal stories about lawyers driving cabs when they can't find an associate position somewhere.