NationStates Jolt Archive

I would like to know what percentage of you are Vegetarian and what kind as well

How about the option, "I'm an omnivore"? I eat some form of meat with most every meal along with fruits and vegetables.

Uhm... You know there's a difference between Vegans and Vegetarians, right?
- I'm not vegetarian

I don't see the point behind vegetarianism.

We don't exclusively eat meat, so you can't call me a carnivore. I eat a balaced diet of vegetables and meat. I don't mind going vegetarian if there is such a circumstance, as long as it does not plague my health.

I don't see the point behind vegetarianism.

They claim that it's sympathetic and compassionate towards animals.

Suggestion for new poll options:

Vegan
Vegetarian
Almost vegeratian
Omnivore

Uhm... You know there's a difference between Vegans and Vegetarians, right?
- I'm not vegetarian

I heard that vegans don't use animal products (leather, milk and eggs included).

We did not climb to the top of the evolutionary and food chains, just to eat salad.

We did not climb to the top of the evolutionary and food chains, just to eat salad.

LOL. Well said.

I don't see the point behind vegetarianism.
I think it's a PETA thing. Puts them in touch with the antelope or something like that. Maybe saves a few whales. But one thing's for sure, it is an automatic free pass to being "thoughtful and Progressive".

I heard that vegans don't use animal products (leather, milk and eggs included).

Yeah, they think it's wrong to wear leather, consume honey and dairy products, eat meat, blah blah blah. I've never seen a healthy looking vegan that actually stayed true to that way of life.

I heard that vegans don't use animal products (leather, milk and eggs included).
Some will wear clothes made out of animals & use products made of them, some won't. Vegans doesn't eat any animal products at all. No milk. No butter. No yeast. etc..

Yeah, they think it's wrong to wear leather, consume honey and dairy products, eat meat, blah blah blah. I've never seen a healthy looking vegan that actually stayed true to that way of life.

It seem O.K. for a lot of buddhist monks. But they use plenty of soy protein in their diet as substitute.

Sorry, I didn't see the third option. I'm more someone who only eats meat half the days in the week. Vegetables are great!

Liverbreath']I think it's a PETA thing. Puts them in touch with the antelope or something like that. Maybe saves a few whales. But one thing's for sure, it is an automatic free pass to being "thoughtful and Progressive".

"In touch with the antelope"? Isn't bestiality illegal? LOL!

Vegetables are great!

I like the way how fruits and veges come in a greater variety than meat.

Well... I'm not gonna get dragged into defending my way of life, but I'm as healthy as can be. Why is it you omnivores think you're somehow superior?

I keep kosher, pronounce bismillah before every meal, but that's all for religious purposes. Otherwise, I eat what's tastey. I find I eat more fish than beef and often take seconds on salads rather than fill myself on main course. As an American, and like most Americans, I eat huge portions of everything. Oh, and I have a distinct love of all things dessert.

Not a vegetarian.
Not a carnivore.

I eat like a human.

Considering that the human body needs (in the last study I read) the protiens found in red meat to have a healthy diet...what's the point other than to make some inane political statement?

BTW...I voted carnivore...although the meat I eat is mostly fish and chicken. GOTTA love a medium rare filet mignon, though. :D

Uhm... You know there's a difference between Vegans and Vegetarians, right?
- I'm not vegetarian
that is why there is an option in the poll. I presented the poll because i am simply a curious person. I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian and became that way for health reasons.,not to make a political statement or to feel superior. It is simply a choice i made,nothing else. I like meat but just choose to give vegetarianism a chance. My weight, blood pressure, and cholesterol all went down significantly so i think i am on the right track ,for me. I am not here to espouse one viewpoint or another. I am sorry if that is the impression i gave, that is not my intention,BTW i am a butcher ;)

The human body is not meant to digest grains, dairies and beans (especially soybean -- which is really bad when eaten uncooked). Maybe that's why many persons are lactose intolerant or can't digest gluten (wheat). My wife is allergic to gluten (wheat), it makes her really sick for days.

We eat fish, seafood, poultry, red meat, lots of green vegetables, carrots/turnip/beets, and we can't resist a good cheese and home-made yogurt.

I love fishing. Finding wild mushrooms. Gathering blueberries and wild strawberries.

WE EAT LOCAL.

I believe that there are too many humans on the planet, and that extensive agriculture (especially grains such as wheat, corn) is destroying the environment.

But y'know, I'm only your average caveman.
Umgah!

Heeey! I know how you omnivores can satisfy your cravings and feel morally superior to the ALF (or whatever it is that freaks you out).

Eat a friend! Solve the overpopulation problem and eliminate abusive cattle farming. Become a canibal!

I keep kosher, pronounce bismillah before every meal, but that's all for religious purposes. Otherwise, I eat what's tastey. I find I eat more fish than beef and often take seconds on salads rather than fill myself on main course. As an American, and like most Americans, I eat huge portions of everything. Oh, and I have a distinct love of all things dessert.

Not a vegetarian.
Not a carnivore.

I eat like a human.


Mind me asking what religion? Just curious. I love to learn new stuff! :D

I honestly don't care about ones diet. The only thing that pisses me off to no end is those who think they are morally superior just because of what they do or don't eat.

I honestly don't care about ones diet. The only thing that pisses me off to no end is those who think they are morally superior just because of what they do or don't eat.
Agreed. It's pretty annoying getting labled with all kinds of shit & being told you're malnourished just because cows aren't your idea of a tasty snack.

Yeah, they think it's wrong to wear leather, consume honey and dairy products, eat meat, blah blah blah. I've never seen a healthy looking vegan that actually stayed true to that way of life.
I have.

They claim that it's sympathetic and compassionate towards animals.
Well, here's one vegetarian that says, "screw animal rights!".

I'm only one because I hate the taste of meat and it's healthier for me.

I believe that there are too many humans on the planet, and that extensive agriculture (especially grains such as wheat, corn) is destroying the environment.
You do know that most grains are grown to feed livestock, right?

You do know that most grains are grown to feed livestock, right?
How about animals that are actually grazing / eating what's coming out of the soil?

Well... I'm not gonna get dragged into defending my way of life, but I'm as healthy as can be. Why is it you omnivores think you're somehow superior?

because we are

(jk, not trying to flamebait)

Well, I chose "carnicore" as there wasn't really an omnivore option...

Foolish Vegans. Don't they know that not eating eggs and rinking milk only quickens the animal's demise?

I eat a well balanced diet of meat, vegetables and grains. I drink an inordinate amount of pop. Very tasty.

i dont really get the whole vegan wave. a lot of people who are straight edge (like me) are vegan, but to me it's pointless. but hey. its about whatever floats your boat. if not eating meat or "hurting animals" floats your boat. go for it. but meat floats my boat!

I'm omnivorous. I enjoy lots of fruits and vegetables, I drink milk, eat eggs, and eat more chicken, pork and fish than beef.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or vegan, and have had excellent dishes in a vegetarian Indian place I know.

How about animals that are actually grazing / eating what's coming out of the soil?
Those aren't generally sold. Most meat comes from animals that are fed grains.

We did not climb to the top of the evolutionary and food chains, just to eat salad.

It was believed that when the ancestor of Man started eating meats, the protein provided brain growth.

Well... I'm not gonna get dragged into defending my way of life, but I'm as healthy as can be. Why is it you omnivores think you're somehow superior?

You seem to think that you are somehow superior. What we are doing is perfectly natural.

I like my steak, but I also believe the animals we eat should be treated as humanely as possible while they're alive. I try to buy free range chicken and beef when I can.

My grandparents are PETA members. While I somewhat admire the sentiments behind it, I get exasperated with them when they take me to task for wearing a silk skirt. (kills silk worms, ya know)

This is a pretty weak poll.

To me, vegetarianism just doesnt make sense. We have teeth so designed to eat other animals.

Evolution would not dictate that we become vegetarians. At least not at this stage.

Many of our primate cousins are omnivores too.

You seem to think that you are somehow superior. What we are doing is perfectly natural.
.... So.. You want me to quietly sit here while you pass judgement on me for what I do and don't eat?!
Besides the fact that it's perfectly natural not to eat animal products at all - our bodies are well equipped for almost any diet - what the hell does nature have to do with it? Did I say one word about your diet before you started spewing shit about mine?
I can't believe how some of you bitch and moan about people who give you shit for the things you eat, when you immediately criticise people who aren't like you. I hope the little PETA bitches never stop giving you grief.

Sure I feel vastly superior now. Doesn't have anything to do with my diet though. It's just that you're a condecending twat. Hard not to feel superior to you.

Does vegetarianism result in your PMS?

I did not criticize your diet in any way and you start spewing shit on me!

My grandparents are PETA members. While I somewhat admire the sentiments behind it, I get exasperated with them when they take me to task for wearing a silk skirt. (kills silk worms, ya know)

Silks is one of the greatest marvels from the East.

I am not a vegetarian, but I am considering becoming one.

I am not a vegetarian, but I am considering becoming one.

What's your reason behind undertaking such a change?

Vegetarian for the last 12 years, before which I don't remember much and wasn't in much control of my diet anyway. My parents tried to be vegan for a couple years, but slipped up a lot and then we met my best friend's family and their fantastic cooking and they gave up. I never tried to go along with the vegan thing, I love cheese too much. I used to eat eggs fairly regularly, but then I stopped for several years (don't remember why) and now I eat them again, but only the good ones from our own chickens and not in large quantities or too often.

What's your reason behind undertaking such a change?
My mother is a vegetarian, and more and more I'm becoming less picky about foods, and more guilty about being a meat-eater. She hasn't even forced her view on me, or even slightly pushed. I think she's the best role model I could possibly have. I always thought vegetarianism was noble anyway. I don't even eat hot dogs, hamburgers, liver, etc. and I am used to meat substitutes. If I could just learn to love salad, I'd be set.

If cows didn't want to be eaten, they shouldn't be so delicious.

Yeah, they think it's wrong to wear leather, consume honey and dairy products, eat meat, blah blah blah. I've never seen a healthy looking vegan that actually stayed true to that way of life.
hmmm. weird. I've never seen an unhealthy vegan in my life. Few of them are slightly overweight but not obese. How many vegans you know?

I have met vegans who try to put pressure on everyone else. Lecture about ecological issues and everything and then roll a cigarett and start smoking...

I used to be vegetarian but have eaten meat for years again. There's quite a lot of organic products available now which is a good thing. IMO the biggest problem is not eating meat but how it's normally produced (and that we really don't have to eat meat on every meal).

Agreed. It's pretty annoying getting labled with all kinds of shit & being told you're malnourished just because cows aren't your idea of a tasty snack.

Ah yes. Exactly. I've been vegetarian my whole memorable life and I can be pretty sure I was veggie by default 90% of the time before then as my parents are, and I am an average-height, strong, clinically normal, functional 15-year-old. I'm not malnourished. I don't give up flavor for salad; in fact, I don't really like most salads. I like pizza and pasta and anything cheesy, I like sandwiches and celery with peanut butter and burritos and baby carrots and oranges and frozen blueberries and eggs on toast and fried tofu and winter root stew. I don't like to get ranting over it because I'm not out to convert anybody or anything like that, but there are so many misconceptions. A lot of people honestly think that vegetarians eat nothing but salad and are skinny, bony, jaundiced radicals. But it's not true. I just hate having to defend myself when I'm not even trying to preach in the first place. What business is it of anyone else to say that there's something wrong with me because I think cooking flesh smells gross and is a gross idea to imagine eating?

I think that the third option is rather odd. Near? No meat at least 3 times weekly. That's very very far from vegetarianism. I would say that near is when you eat meat about once a month or fish occasionally.

Btw Is there any fresh vegans around here? I don't know the term in English. A vegan who only eats uncooked food.

I’m a vegetarian. Not a vegan. I eat eggs and milk. I find it way too hard to maintain a balanced diet and consume meat. I also have issues with the modern industrial farms. I’m a softy for animals.:D I find many fellow vegetarians to be quiet annoying, generally. They feel they are superior for not eating meat. Dang elitists.

My mother is a vegetarian, and more and more I'm becoming less picky about foods, and more guilty about being a meat-eater. She hasn't even forced her view on me, or even slightly pushed. I think she's the best role model I could possibly have. I always thought vegetarianism was noble anyway. I don't even eat hot dogs, hamburgers, liver, etc. and I am used to meat substitutes. If I could just learn to love salad, I'd be set.

:eek:That is exactly what led to my vegetarianism.

has this thread turned into the flaming of the vegetarians yet? why i believe that yes it surely has despite the thread starters innocent question. why does vegetarianism cause o much contention in so damn many omnivores even when your own diet is't even being questioned or anything liek that? I still await a non-lame answer to that question.

[snip]
:eek:That is exactly what led to my vegetarianism.
Really? *Is somewhat caught off-guard, then shrugs.*
Hurray for the non-evangelical (well, that's really the best way I can think of to describe it) vegetarians/vegans! Good role models for us all!

I only agree with two rationals for vegetarianism; not the think-of-the-poor-animals thing, not the we-aren't-made-for-it thing, not the god-didn't-mean-for-us-to-eat-meat thing, none of that stuff.
The only two rational reasons I can think of are as follows
1) You don't like meat because it tasted bad
2) Raising meat has a greater environmental impact per calory than raising grains and vegetables that contain protein.

Does vegetarianism result in your PMS?

I did not criticize your diet in any way and you start spewing shit on me!
I wasn't gonna comment, but I changed my mind. To make this easy, I'll quote this thread cronologically.


I don't see the point behind vegetarianism.
No I didn't take offence to this. It's just context.

They claim that it's sympathetic and compassionate towards animals.
Yea... One of them already claimed all sorts of shit didn't he? ...Or maybe not.
Liverbreath]
I think it's a PETA thing. Puts them in touch with the antelope or something like that. Maybe saves a few whales. But one thing's for sure, it is an automatic free pass to being "thoughtful and Progressive".
...Because there were just tons of PETA propaganda drowning out the omnivoures.

Yeah, they think it's wrong to wear leather, consume honey and dairy products, eat meat, blah blah blah. I've never seen a healthy looking vegan that actually stayed true to that way of life.
More negative crap.

It seem O.K. for a lot of buddhist monks. But they use plenty of soy protein in their diet as substitute.
Because only Monks and other religious whackos would ever think of doing something differently than you, right?

Well... I'm not gonna get dragged into defending my way of life, but I'm as healthy as can be. Why is it you omnivores think you're somehow superior?
That's the only thing I said after your collective condecending shit above. I was trying to make you realize you were doing what you accuse vegetarians etc. of doing, where as none of us were.

Considering that the human body needs (in the last study I read) the protiens found in red meat to have a healthy diet...what's the point other than to make some inane political statement?
You read wrong. The study might have said meat is a conveinient source of several things the body needs (fat acids in particular). Humans doesn't need meat. Considering noone has yet made any political statements at this point, what makes you think "inane" political veiws has anything to do with it?

You seem to think that you are somehow superior. What we are doing is perfectly natural.
And thus I threw a tantrum. Looking back, I don't blame me. You don't exactly go out of your way not to provoke an angry response... In fact, it seems like you were fishing for one.

By the way, I'm a bloke. And don't tell me you didn't critizise my diet. Look back in case you doubt the quotes.

im a eatwhateverisinfrontofmeavor

in the future wars will not be fought between countries, but between political action groups.

Because only Monks and other religious whackos would ever think of doing something differently than you, right?

Please don't insult the monks.

Please don't insult the monks.
Please don't use monks to insult vegans

It seem O.K. for a lot of buddhist monks. But they use plenty of soy protein in their diet as substitute.

Because only Monks and other religious whackos would ever think of doing something differently than you, right?

Is there something between the lines that I just can't see? You seem to read a whole lot more of it than I do.
Monks are an example of healthy vegans -> it's somehow insulting vegans?

"If you're a vegetarian, shut up. You're not gonna recruit me. I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to eat carrots."

"If you're a vegetarian, shut up. You're not gonna convert me. I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to eat carrots."
My mom, being the good sport that she is, laughs with the rest of my family every time when we watch a Blue Collar Comedy thing and they use that joke.

My mom, being the good sport that she is, laughs with the rest of my family every time when we watch a Blue Collar Comedy thing and they use that joke.

Wow... you are familiar with the Blue Collar Comedy Tour to the point that you recognize minor quotes from it, and you are one of Eliza Dushku's stalkers... and your mom is a commie vegetarian that watches redneck stand-up... how strange.

Wow... you are familiar with the Blue Collar Comedy Tour to the point that you recognize minor quotes from it, and you are one of Eliza Dushku's stalkers... and your mom is a commie vegetarian that watches redneck stand-up... how strange.
Well, our family is very Southern, but also very, very out of place.

And, hey, I am not a stalker! In order to be a stalker, one must stalk. That would require action. I am far more a procrastinator and slacker than a stalker! ;)

Is there something between the lines that I just can't see? You seem to read a whole lot more of it than I do.
Monks are an example of healthy vegans -> it's somehow insulting vegans?
Forgive me for not reading it out of context.

Somebody very wise once told us to take the middle road. That's why I eat loads of vegetables with my meat. And that's what I believe is right and I've got a clear skin and healthy amounts of energy to show for it. I think the war between vegetarians and omnivores comes from the fact that when vegetarians started to emerge and make themselves known a lot of them had a holierthanthou attitude (which I have also noticed among some of the vegans I've met). Nobody likes people that state that they are better than others. Of course this is not true about the majoritiy of vegetarians but the human brain has problems dealing with complex issues and prefers black and white.

I don't know about you folks, but my teeth evolved to eat both plant and animal matter and that's what I do!

Forgive me for not reading it out of context.
What ever. IMO you did read it out of the context. He answered to Seagrove who wrote that he has never seen a healthy vegan.

I've thoughtof becoming a vegetarian, but concluded the following:
1. Humans have been omnivores for millenia.
2. It's very hard to replace pepperoni pizza and hamburgers with tofu.
3. It makes more sense nutritionally.

:)

Tofu = Soylent White.

I personally try and avoid the Agro-Industrial complex as much as possible.
my family has raised our own beef for years, and we keep chickens for eggs.
it takes a little getting used to. but after a while, storebought products seem dowright revolting. of course, there are some people who find having to rinse the shyte off an egg before using it revolting.

Just because it has no mouth doesn't mean a vegetable isn't screaming on the inside when you eat it. :eek:

What about the poor microbes that you kill when you pick, package, wash and cook your vegetables??? :eek: Maybe you shouldn't eat.

My eating habits are based on land-use... I only eat meat that is sustainable.

That includes fish, turkey, venisen, game-pultry, and duck.

I'm pretty much vegetarian. I don't like the taste of meat, hate eggs (hydrogen sulfide is simply disgusting) but have no problems with milk, honey or anything else and I don't mind people eating meat. It's just a matter of taste imo and I even have a steak or some lamb ocassionally.
Nevertheless I don't tolerate factory farming and animal tests because it is cruel since animals do feel pain although they are not too intelligent. Keep animals close to their natural environment and kill them fast.

By the way: Living vegetarian does not necessarily mean eating salad all day. French Fries for are made from potatoes if you remember.

I don't know about you folks, but my teeth evolved to eat both plant and animal matter and that's what I do!

I don't know about you pal, but my brain evolved with the result that I have apparent freedom of choice, thus I decided to go vegan. (15 years and counting).

I'm a vegetarian, but that's just because I hate meat, its just yuck! Its a hereditary thing, my dad started hating meat when he was about 13 and so did I. Also my grandad hated onions and oranges and so do I. I'm so unlucky with my palette, its not fair. I want to like meat, onions, oranges etc but they just disgust me. :(

I don't know about you pal, but my brain evolved with the result that I have apparent freedom of choice, thus I decided to go vegan. (15 years and counting).
Dofs hat!
I can see why some one becomes a vegan but vegitarianism is a mystery to me. Surely it would be better to be an omnivore who is concerned about where and how animal products are produced.

This poll insinuates that anyone who is not vegetarian is a carnivore? How stupid

Dofs hat!
I can see why some one becomes a vegan but vegitarianism is a mystery to me. Surely it would be better to be an omnivore who is concerned about where and how animal products are produced.
I think it's just way harder for someone to become a vegan than a vegetarian. Less stuff you can use/eat/drink. Too much dicipline needed.

What about the poor microbes that you kill when you pick, package, wash and cook your vegetables??? :eek: Maybe you shouldn't eat.

Lets make a deal: you show me a microbe with a sufficiently developed nervous system that it is safe to assume they are capable of feeling something analogous to what we experience as pain, and I'll take your argument into consideration.

i have been a vegan for 2 years and i'm healthy

I’m an omnivore, as were all humans were before this stuff popped up. I don’t have anything against it, as in I don’t hate vegetarians and I respect their choice up to a point (The point being when one of them try and make me change my mind on my diet.) but I get the feeling that there are things which you could be forcing onto yourself which would do a lot more help to the world in general. I mean, the only time when Vegetarianism will make the impact people wish for it to make, is when a large minority or majority are vegetarian. Over wise, the sellers and buyers of meat and such products made from animals will just continue.

Now, a somewhat off topic note, in my city, there is a part where it seems as though it’s the best place to be seen if you are a politician or street entertainer. (Recently there has been a guy jumping over spikes and sharp stuff.) One particular stand which has been there for a considerable amount of time is one which advertises the need to end scientific experiments which animals are often involved (Parkinson’s disease being one if I remember correctly. Although, to be truthful, I couldn’t care less of the animals used if the experiments could cure such a condition.) and goes to some length (I’m sure that all the pamphlets they have on the table [THE ENTIRE TABLE IS *COVERED* IN THEM!] probably have taken 50 or so trees worth of raw materials.) to make you change your mind. Now, I feel that this is quite wrong. Why?
In Africa, a child dies every three seconds. There are 84 wars going around on this planet right now. The amount of human misery is probably quite large, and these people care about domestic dogs? They care about rats? I’m all for the protection of animals but, when it gets to this sort of thing, it’s getting rather ridiculous.

Anyway, now that rant is over, I’m an Omnivore. Yes, I can use my ability as a human being to eat both meat and fruit and vegetables. Isn’t that just amazing?

Actually, I'm an omnivore.

In Africa, a child dies every three seconds. There are 84 wars going around on this planet right now. The amount of human misery is probably quite large, and these people care about domestic dogs? They care about rats? I’m all for the protection of animals but, when it gets to this sort of thing, it’s getting rather ridiculous.

This just prompts the question: what are you doing to help the plight of the human poor?

Clearly I eat only brains.

Do you know how much food can be produced for the hungry and/or poor when we wouldn't put all those resources into breeding animals to feed us?

Vegetarianism isn't just about feeling sorry for those poor animals.

Do you know how much food can be produced for the hungry and/or poor when we wouldn't put all those resources into breeding animals to feed us?

Vegetarianism isn't just about feeling sorry for those poor animals.
No, it's about person freedoms and choices. FFS, why not go after the people driving $100,000.00 sports cars before us poor meat eaters? For a lot of poor families in western society, sausages, baloney, colcuts etc. are one of few meal choices available - not everyone can afford tofu dogs or vitamin supplements...

Seriously, if anyone tries to deny me the right to eat meat, I will eat them - no BS! :)

Meat eating denotes intelligence.
That is not flaming, but a simple fact.
Name one intelligent herbivore, besides vegan humans.
However intelligent (for animals) omnivores include dogs, cats, dolphins, rats, pigs and whales (technically).

Pig and rats are actually both reasonably intelligent and similar to humans. Rats are used for mental conditiong studies and psychological drug trials, pigs until recently were the only source of insulin and may ultimately be able to supply body organs. Pigs are actually preferable in that field (Xenotransplantation) than primates such as monkeys. They are also more intelligent than dogs, as Pavlov gave up on pigs and used dogs because the pigs went nuts every time they got put on the operating table.

I actually discovered an hypothesis are that humans evolved from primates near the beach/ocean/lakes, as fish has the best assortment of fatty acids and etc. This also would contribute to loss of most body hair, and other factors that differentiate us from other primates. I can not remember exactly where I read those two last points (Beach Humans and Pavlov's Pigs) but I think it was a Science of Discworld novel. Those are seriousl;y good books, like an general 'Brief History of Time' interspaced with a fictionous, funny as hell story

Also, if you need meat, you need to be able to hunt, thus increasing reasoning, sight, dexterity, tool making etc. This also increases size and muscle mass from the physical act of hunting, and the increased protein intake.

I'm not saying vegetarianism is wrong but scientific fact backs an omnivorous diet as better than an purely herbivorous diet

If cows didn't want to be eaten, they shouldn't be so delicious.

If God did not want us to eat animals, he weould not have made them from meat.

How about the option, "I'm an omnivore"? I eat some form of meat with most every meal along with fruits and vegetables.
Dito here!

True - carnives (or hunting omnivores) typically exhibit more intelligence than herbivores - i.e. what takes more intelligence, stalking a prey and checking escape routes; or simply runnning away...

Considering that the human body needs (in the last study I read) the protiens found in red meat to have a healthy diet...what's the point other than to make some inane political statement?
Who said anything about political statements? I'm a vegetarian, but I don't go around trying to preach it or convert anybody. Anyway, you can get those proteins from eating other things. You can eat whatever you want, just as long as you know how much of it to eat, and what else you need to eat with it.

They claim that it's sympathetic and compassionate towards animals.
Just like it's sympathetic and compassionate towards humans not to eat them, right? One of my best friends loves animals, and really supports animal rights, but just can't bring herself to be a vegetarian. I don't love salad. I love cheesey foods. I drink way too much soda. I've been a vegetarian all my life, and obviously not just for health reasons or anything.

Just because it has no mouth doesn't mean a vegetable isn't screaming on the inside when you eat it. :eek:
But you're not actually killing the plant. You're only taking part of it. Like taking milk or eggs. Except for bulbs, like garlic and onion... which I eat, so I shouldn't be saying anything about that. I love my garlic bread way too much.

Lastly:
Also, if you need meat, you need to be able to hunt, thus increasing reasoning, sight, dexterity, tool making etc. This also increases size and muscle mass from the physical act of hunting, and the increased protein intake.
But for that, you need to actually hunt your food, not just buy it from a store.

True - carnives (or hunting omnivores0 typically exhibit more intelligence than herbivores - i.e. what takes more intelligence, stalking a prey and checking escape routes; or simply runnning away...

Yes, because we all know how cunning a packet of mince from the supermarket can be.

Please don't use monks to insult vegans

Leave the Buddhists out of this, they are vegetarian and they were merely pointing it out, not mocking them.

Although I think they can eat meat, just not kill anything. On a side note, the Dalai Lama like fruitcake and cornflakes, he kicks ass

But for that, you need to actually hunt your food, not just buy it from a store.

What I meant is in the evolution of the species, although that probably was not too clear, and I was also refering to those who hunt for meat ala deer and kangeroo, but Skippy mostly gets used as dog food out here

We did not climb to the top of the evolutionary and food chains, just to eat salad.
And who said humans are at the top of the evolutionary and food chains? Oh yeah, humans. I reckon that some other animals are more evolved than us, and higher up the food chain. For example, sharks. Immune to every disease under the sun and no predators (except humans). Compare to humans. How many different diseases are there that can affect us? How many predators do we have?
I'm a vegetarian. I would like it a lot if people who aren't vegetarians would make no comment on my diet. It's bloody annoying. So I don't eat meat? My god, I'll have to be tarred and feathered and strung up by the bura'zak-ka, won't I?! Seriously, the way some people act, it's as if I'm betraying some mythical duty as a human being to exploit the animal resources of the planet.

Mind me asking what religion? Just curious. I love to learn new stuff! :D

Muslim, raised Jewish.

Yes, because we all know how cunning a packet of mince from the supermarket can be.

See, there's your problem. It's in jars, not packets. :D

Yes, because we all know how cunning a packet of mince from the supermarket can be.
*cough* HUNTING ominores *cough*

Please read before you make quips ;)

Name one intelligent herbivore, besides vegan humans.
However intelligent (for animals) omnivores include dogs, cats, dolphins, rats, pigs and whales (technically).t

Bonobo chimps are as near completely herbivorous as makes no difference.

Although I think they can eat meat, just not kill anything. On a side note, the Dalai Lama like fruitcake and cornflakes, he kicks ass

Meat is forbidden to practising Buddhists. Killing is totally out of question.

Me, just became a vegan coupla months ago , after eating pretty much anything that moves.

I am giving up on onions and garlic stuff too. :D

Bonobo chimps are as near completely herbivorous as makes no difference.
Yet strangely, not as intelligent as chimpanzees, which are omnivorous (they eat insects and ocasionally higher animals, such as piglets)...

See, there's your problem. It's in jars, not packets. :D

Where the hell can you get it in jars?
I seen it in cans of Premade Bolognaise,(I know I spelt that wrong), but never jars

Meat is forbidden to practising Buddhists. Killing is totally out of question.

Not totally. The Dalai Lama eats meat.

Yeah, they think it's wrong to wear leather, consume honey and dairy products, eat meat, blah blah blah. I've never seen a healthy looking vegan that actually stayed true to that way of life.


I know a vegan who is nearly 13 and is 4 and a half stone. He is pale and very thin. He needs more calcium and protein.

*cough* HUNTING ominores *cough*

Please read before you make quips ;)

Bugger, missed that bit....

I thought that, like most of the people on this thread, you were likening humans to "true" carnivores.

My apologies.

Yeah, they think it's wrong to wear leather, consume honey and dairy products, eat meat, blah blah blah. I've never seen a healthy looking vegan that actually stayed true to that way of life.

maybe in that carphole of a CUNTry you call america. but me and all the vegans+vegetarians i knwo, are fine, and healthy

carphole

What relevance do fishponds have to the matter at hand?

Bugger, missed that bit....

I thought that, like most of the people on this thread, you were likening humans to "true" carnivores.

My apologies.
No problemo, message boards aren't the ideal medium for having intellectual debates, IMHO...;)

...Become a canibal!
You know, I have been making that suggestion for years. I haven't been able to convince anybody else though. :(

Most people've I've talked too don't even want to turn dead people into beneficial fertilizer to help grow crops. :(

Bonobo chimps are as near completely herbivorous as makes no difference.

I thought they were omnivore,
Okay there's one
Intelligent Herbivores 1
Intelligent Omnivores 7

maybe in that carphole of a CUNTry you call america. but me and all the vegans+vegetarians i knwo, are fine, and healthy

Hey Wal get the sheep of the computer

Joking, but seriously it's very rare to find an vegan at a healthy weight and build. If you know vegans that are, good, they are doing it right. However most of the ones I've seen look like a decent wind will snap them in half

You know, I have been making that suggestion for years. I haven't been able to convince anybody else though. :(

Most people've I've talked too don't even want to turn dead people into beneficial fertilizer to help grow crops. :(

Obvious quote
You heard me, baby, the other other white meat.

i'm a kind of post-modern vegetarian. i eat meat, 'ironically'

Liverbreath']I think it's a PETA thing. Puts them in touch with the antelope or something like that. Maybe saves a few whales. But one thing's for sure, it is an automatic free pass to being "thoughtful and Progressive".
being in touch with the antelope? them people know nothing, they're all citizens(when i asked my friend this is what he told me, but i don't think that's the correct word for this situation, is there another word for a person who lives in the city? maybe something like urbaniums or something?). and vegitarianism has nothing to do with progress, for it limits the amount of variety they can eat, and in a situation where it'd be more profitable to eat meat(such as more deer around and it's a drought or something) then they aren't helping anything. it's not thoughtful either, for thoughtful would be providing equality for the plants in addition to the animals. it should be equal for all organisms, and it's natural.

I thought they were omnivore,
Okay there's one
Intelligent Herbivores 1
Intelligent Omnivores 7

As far as I see it though. the point is that we as human beings have developed brains such that we are able to apparently possess freedom of choice: thus we are able to decide whether to eat meat or not.

Personally, I don't eat mammals, I'm against animal testing as I am an animal fanatic working on starting my own sheltor and the current owner of 4 rats and a dog. I eat only poultry and fish and not duck as I had one when I was small and can't think of eating the relative of something I used to cuddle. However, I do at times partake of a really good pot roast, my only meat sucsesion. I'm lactose intolerant, but I love cheese and ice cream so I take pills. I take a plethora of vitamins everyday to make up for my deficiencys in my diet and as far as body type goes I'm pleasently plump (mostly from heredity). All in all I don't think I could ever go fully vegetarian, and I support and respect those who can because it isn't always easy (ie. eating out with friends, travel, etc.).

Social carnivore species (such as the wolf) are intelligent but evolve towards a very fixed social system.
Non-social carnivores are usually less intelligent because they rely on claws, fangs, speed.

Usually, omnivores are the most intelligent species: raccoons, the black bear, the red fox for instance.

Although some social herbivores and rodents can display some intelligence (prairie dogs for instance).


The original human diet (pre-agriculture) was composed of the following:
- 55% green vegetables, roots, fruits
- 25% nuts, egg, fish, oysters and seafood
- 20% meat (most of the times from small animals such as rodents, birds, lizards)

These % were compiled from data gathered in human coprolithes (fossil feces) and waste found on early human sites. So yes, the human was a real omnivore hunter-gatherer. But the "gathering" part was MUCH more important than the "hunting" part. Proteins came mostly from indirect sources. Meat was marginal.

What wasn't part of our early diet: dairies, grains, peanuts, beans, vegetables that require long cooking or grinding. Please note that most food allergies are in these categories.

We can learn a lot from native food (pemmican...) as well as the Japanese traditional diet (BEFORE the introduction of tempura, soy sauce).

it's not thoughtful either, for thoughtful would be providing equality for the plants in addition to the animals. it should be equal for all organisms, and it's natural.
Like I said earlier, with a few exceptions like garlic and onion, you are not killing the plant. You're taking parts of, parts that can regrow. And you forgot to mention fungi. :D Have you ever seen a plant with a brain?

it's not thoughtful either, for thoughtful would be providing equality for the plants in addition to the animals. it should be equal for all organisms, and it's natural.
Plants don't have a sentient existance that is being ended simply so that humans may consume the organism.
Or at least, I believe that is the general argument on this sort of thing, that it is the fact that animals can feel and such that matters rather than a quality of 'organism-hood'. It's certainly the one I would use.

Not totally. The Dalai Lama eats meat.

There is a lot of confusion reg this.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=1,1002,0,0,1,0

Lately I have also turned to a vegetarian diet. Today’s youth, particularly the ones who have come from Tibet and have a refugee status must inculcate these principles for their own development and to have peace of mind. The message from “mahakaruna" has clearly asked us to follow and preach love and compassion for all living beings."

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2004/05/dalai_lama.html
RD: Your assistant says you are half vegetarian. How can one be “half vegetarian?”

Dalai Lama: [Laughs.] In the early 1960s, I became a vegetarian, and for almost two years I remained a strict vegetarian. But then I developed hepatitis, and I returned to my previous diet; for a while it would be vegetarian one day, nonvegetarian the next.

My kitchen is now totally vegetarian. But that doesn’t mean I am completely vegetarian, for when I visit places, occasionally I take nonvegetarian…that seems to help reduce the size of my stomach.

and more here on Buddhism and the veggie question

http://www.kmspks.org/articles/vege.htm
Must Buddhists Be Vegetarian?

"A vegetarian diet is not obligatory for Buddhists. Still, for those of us who follow the teachings of the Great Vehicle, it is important. But the teachings of the Buddha were open and flexible on this subject, and each practitioner has the choice to be vegetarian or not."

-His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama

Reflect carefully- why are you putting off vegetarianism when it so obviously has all the plus points? Is it due to plain greed for the taste of meat? If you want to be sure you are not vegetarian not because of greed, the best solution is to be vegetarian and prove it to yourself. This is not my challenge for you- this is your personal spiritual challenge. We have to be totally honest with ourselves. Remember this- your decision to be vegetarian or not will affect thousands of sentient lives in your lifetime.

Quotes on Vegetarianism by the World's Most Famous Buddhist-
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama (1989 Nobel Peace Prize Laureate):

In the mid 1960s, the Dalai Lama was impressed by ethically vegetarian Indian monks and adopted a vegetarian diet for about a year and a half. Apparently he consumed primarily nuts and milk. Unfortunately, he contracted Hepatitis B and his liver was seriously damaged. For health reasons, he was advised by his personal physicians to consume meat. While he has eaten meat in moderation ever since, the Dalai Lama has repeatedly acknowledged that a vegetarian diet is a worthy expression of compassion and contributes to the cessation of the suffering of all living beings. However, he eats meat only on alternate days (six months a year). He is a semi-vegetarian, though he wishes to be a full one. By making an example of cutting his meat consumption in half, he is trying to gently influence his followers.

"While many of the great Tibetan teachers did and do eat animals, the Dalai Lama has broken new ground by publicly stating his case for vegetarianism. If we seriously consider the compassion inherent in His Holiness’ advice and actions, Buddhist meat-eaters could similarly try to eat vegetarian at least every other day to start out with. Since Buddhists have taken vows not to kill, they should not support a livelihood that makes others kill. Even if one does not have great compassion for animals this would meritoriously save humans from performing heinous deeds. The power of each human being becoming vegetarian releases the most intense suffering of the animal realm—the agony of factory-farmed animals. This profound action can help slow the grinding wheels of samsara, bringing to a halt the cycles of suffering of the entire animal realm and influencing their eventual liberation. When animals are not just looked upon as creatures to fill our stomachs, they can be seen as they really are—beings who have the same Buddha nature as we all do."

Personally, ever since I gave up meat, I feel better in both body and mind. I am a strange case since I ate meat in India, but gave it up in the US.

It is hard in the US with not much variety for vegetarians. India is a paradise for veggies !

here's my argument against vegetarianism:

by eating the stupidest individuals of each species, you're helping the animals evolve higher intelligence. and with more intelligence, animals enjoy life more.

(this argument does presume that there is some kind of intelligence-vetting process at abattoirs, but most vegetarians don't realise this 'cos they don't eat enough protein to form brain cells)

but most vegetarians don't realise this 'cos they don't eat enough protein to form brain cells

:confused:

Ever heard of Ramanujan ?

here's my argument against vegetarianism:

by eating the stupidest individuals of each species, you're helping the animals evolve higher intelligence. and with more intelligence, animals enjoy life more.

(this argument does presume that there is some kind of intelligence-vetting process at abattoirs, but most vegetarians don't realise this 'cos they don't eat enough protein to form brain cells)
So lets all eat stupid humans, and end this debate. Anyway, that presumption is total crap: all animals who go to abattoirs die, and only the ones deemed unfit for human consumption aren't processed to be eaten by us, and are generally turned into some kind of animal food.

I am guessing that most of the reactions against vegetarianism in the US is due to the activities of PETA and such orgs.

I have never come across any "anti-vegetarianism" anywhere else (in my limited travellings and readings).

I am guessing that most of the reactions against vegetarianism in the US is due to the activities of PETA and such orgs.

I have never come across any "anti-vegetarianism" anywhere else (in my limited travellings and readings).


Anti-vegetarianism is rampant on this board, always has been, always will be it seems. You will never have a nice discussion about vegetarianism on here without being attacked for your choice of diet. Despite the fact that you don't see any vegetarian activists trying to convert anyone here, I see vegetarian-haters foaming at the mouth constantly - completely belittling vegetarians and tryign to say we act holier than thou when that is not the case except for about 2 extreemists that I have counted from this board since I started posting here.

Yes, I belive that it is probably due to the dumb-asses at PETA that have given most of us vegetarians/vegans a bad name.

I have never come across any "anti-vegetarianism" anywhere else (in my limited travellings and readings).

You haven't bumped people from "CaveMan Foods" or the "Paleo Diet" yet, I guess. Do a Google search, you'll see. :eek: While I acknowledge that SOME of their arguments are convincing, they're a bunch of total nuts. I tried to be a member in one of their forums (because I was interested by the (pre)historical topics and some of their theories), but I was BANNED after less than 1 week for being too "moderate". I mean... I'm not anti-vegetarians (like they are), it's just that I think that a "55% greens, 25% nuts/eggs/seafood, 20% meat" diet looks very healthy to me. But these guys are total nutcases, they act like a closed sect and engage in vege-bashing on a daily basis.

I guess there are extremists in all groups. And yes, I've met some VERY aggressive vegetarians too. But fortunately, most people are moderate.

One of the most beautiful girls I've ever dated was an Italian vegetarian. She almost "converted" me. She was healthy, kind and very respectful. She was't vegan though; eating eggs, yogurt and cheese. She used to say that fermented milk products are healthy, while non-fermented milk isn't good for the body. It's worth considering.

I don't eat much meat, but that's more because I really don't like most meats(chicken and ham are about it, and chicken is the only one I can get prepared the way I like with ease) than out of health concerns. I do get plenty of milk, though, although I don't eat eggs a whole lot(again, this is mostly because I don't like many egg dishes).
I do have to say that the conditions that most animals raised for their meat(or other food products) is abhorrent, though. But I'm not going to do anythign stupid because of it. PETA gets bad enough at times. Remember kiddies, extremism is bad!

Plants don't have a sentient existance that is being ended simply so that humans may consume the organism.
Or at least, I believe that is the general argument on this sort of thing, that it is the fact that animals can feel and such that matters rather than a quality of 'organism-hood'. It's certainly the one I would use.
you have to remember that your talking to a person who doesn't believe that there is such thing as a mind, and therefore no sentient distinction, but that's a whole nother arguement.

-snip- I think that a "55% greens, 30% nuts/eggs/seafood, 20% meat" diet looks very healthy to me -snip-
I'd say that was a rather dodgy diet to me... :p

Anti-vegetarianism is rampant on this board, always has been, always will be it seems. You will never have a nice discussion about vegetarianism on here without being attacked for your choice of diet. Despite the fact that you don't see any vegetarian activists trying to convert anyone here, I see vegetarian-haters foaming at the mouth constantly - completely belittling vegetarians and tryign to say we act holier than thou when that is not the case except for about 2 extreemists that I have counted from this board since I started posting here.

Yes, I belive that it is probably due to the dumb-asses at PETA that have given most of us vegetarians/vegans a bad name.

Upon reading more, I am suspecting this could also due to associating vegetarianism with "tree-hugging", "hippies / sissies / liberals" and ofcourse PETA.

Seriously, it is a bit hard for somebody to be a veggie in the US. Apart from lack of variety, there is the general attitude / environment that promotes meat eating.

I am getting strange looks when I say "Please no meat in the burger". ;)

Sarkasis
I guess there are extremists in all groups. And yes, I've met some VERY aggressive vegetarians too. But fortunately, most people are moderate.

Lol..I too used to get irritated when a veggie friend used to patronise me for eating meat. But I will never push my beliefs on another apart from gently suggesting vegetarianism.

Some people tend to confuse these concepts: vegetarianism, bio/organic, environmentalism.
These are three totally disconnected concepts.
It's perfectly possible to be a vegetarian and eat non-organic food, and encourage the destruction of the environment by eating food that comes from non-sustainable agriculture.
Although most vegetarians are more sensible to these concepts than most "automatic omnivorous".
But anyone who HAS to check or inspect his/her food will becomes more sensibilized to these concepts anyway: people with food allergies, people who eat kosher, halal or other, ...

I think the worse attitude with food is to eat without thinking.
The action of eating has moral implications, whatever your belief system is.

this might sound like a stupid question, but:

don't hindus eat lots of chickpeas (or am i thinking of garbanzo beans? lol) to get their protein?

I guess then there are many ways why one becomes a veggie.

1. Purely Spiritual - belief based systems (Hindus, Jains etc). Many scriptures say that you will be born as the animal you are killing, to get rid of the karma. That kinda scares many :D

2. Ethical / Moral - the PETA kind (does PETA advocate vegetarianism or just ethical treatment alone ?)

3. Environmentalists - ("tree huggers", "save earthers" - are they veggies? )

4. Health consciousness -

anything else ?

So I guess it is wrong to lump all veggies into one group...people become veggies for different reasons.

don't hindus eat lots of chickpeas (or am i thinking of garbanzo beans? lol) to get their protein?
Yes, a lot of them are true vegetarians (especially in the southern states).

In Gujarat, my in-laws would be 99% vegetarians (they love big shrimps too much). They eat/drink "dal" 3 times a day with their meal. Lentils are dominant, not chick peas. They eat mostly fresh vegetables and beans, along with "idli" (fluffy rice cake, vapor-cooked), naan bread, bean flour bread, and the occasional fried "pani puri" (indian fast food!!! let's get FAT!!!)

I know this might sound harsh but... people who dnt drink milk r eat cheese r idiots!! If u do not milk a cow it will die in a lot of pain, now dat seems a bit crueler 2 me den squeezing its nipples every now nd again. Cows must be milked, so y not make use of its milk instead of throwing it away

I know this might sound harsh but... people who dnt drink milk r eat cheese r idiots!! If u do not milk a cow it will die in a lot of pain, now dat seems a bit crueler 2 me den squeezing its nipples every now nd again. Cows must be milked, so y not make use of its milk instead of throwing it away

Traditionally a calf would milk a cow.

I guess then there are many ways why one becomes a veggie.

1. Purely Spiritual - belief based systems (Hindus, Jains etc). Many scriptures say that you will be born as the animal you are killing, to get rid of the karma. That kinda scares many :D

2. Ethical / Moral - the PETA kind (does PETA advocate vegetarianism or just ethical treatment alone ?)

3. Environmentalists - ("tree huggers", "save earthers" - are they veggies? )

4. Health consciousness -

anything else ?

So I guess it is wrong to lump all veggies into one group...people become veggies for different reasons.

I just wondered if I could manage a vegetarian diet for a month...that was five months ago, and I've not touched meat since. I'm continuing it for a mixture of reasons 2, 3 and 4, I guess

Traditionally a calf would milk a cow.
True, except cows dnt give birth that often, so a cow wnt always have a calf 2 milk it. Nd if people dnt milk da cow wen it has no calf it will die den.

True, except cows dnt give birth that often, so a cow wnt always have a calf 2 milk it. Nd if people dnt milk da cow wen it has no calf it will die den.
Strangely, cows were doing perfectly fine until they were domesticated by humans...did they die out? I'm guessing not...

Uhm... You know there's a difference between Vegans and Vegetarians, right?
- I'm not vegetarian

A Vegan is a Vegetarian, all it is, is "strict vegetarianism"... All Vegans are Vegetarians; but not all Vegetarians are Vegans...

im weird most veggies make me gag i realy feel ill when i eat them i can only eat potatos and carrots so i mainly eat mean mainly red meat so im gonna die of colon cancer :D
and o you count as a veggie if you only eat mcdonalds and donner kebabs cos lets face it that shit aint meat (only the english may get the donner kebab thing)

Strangely, cows were doing perfectly fine until they were domesticated by humans...did they die out? I'm guessing not...
No but im guessin dat dey wernt as common as dey r now nd life span wud have been a lot shorter for cows witout calfs.

If u do not milk a cow it will die in a lot of pain, now dat seems a bit crueler 2 me den squeezing its nipples every now nd again. Cows must be milked, so y not make use of its milk instead of throwing it away
Either you're currently tring to star a flame war / trolling... or you don't know much about cows...

Cows, like all other mammals, only produce milk when they have babies (calves). What farmers do: after a while, they take the calf away from the mother & kill it (the calf meat is sold as veal), then they keep milking the cow. As long as the cow gets calves, it'll produce milk.

Ref:
http://www.creamland.com/mteamproj2.html
"After the calf is born, the cow will continue to give milk for about 300 days - this is called the lactation period."

It's kinda cruel, when you think of it. But that's the way we raise farm animals.

I think hunting might be more ehtical. :D

True, except cows dnt give birth that often, so a cow wnt always have a calf 2 milk it. Nd if people dnt milk da cow wen it has no calf it will die den.

Yes but the cow will only lactate after pregnancy and birth

Either you're currently tring to star a flame war / trolling... or you don't know much about cows...

Cows, like all other mammals, only produce milk when they have babies (calves). What farmers do: after a while, they take the calf away from the mother & kill it (the calf meat is sold as veal), then they keep milking the cow. As long as the cow gets calves, it'll produce milk.

Ref:
http://www.creamland.com/mteamproj2.html
"After the calf is born, the cow will continue to give milk for about 300 days - this is called the lactation period."

It's kinda cruel, when you think of it. But that's the way we raise farm animals.

I think hunting might be more ehtical. :D
U sir have destroyed my arguement thus making me look the idiot, i stand corrected, i taut cows always gave out milk. But i still tink der is nutin wrong wit drinkin it.

No but im guessin dat dey wernt as common as dey r now nd life span wud have been a lot shorter for cows witout calfs.
I'd say that most life-forms around today weren't as common back then.
And I'll refer you to Sarkasis's post as to why you're talking crap.

.... So.. You want me to quietly sit here while you pass judgement on me for what I do and don't eat?!
Besides the fact that it's perfectly natural not to eat animal products at all - our bodies are well equipped for almost any diet - what the hell does nature have to do with it? Did I say one word about your diet before you started spewing shit about mine?
I can't believe how some of you bitch and moan about people who give you shit for the things you eat, when you immediately criticise people who aren't like you. I hope the little PETA bitches never stop giving you grief.

Sure I feel vastly superior now. Doesn't have anything to do with my diet though. It's just that you're a condecending twat. Hard not to feel superior to you.

You really need to get your head out of your ass.... Considering you're attacking people for merely being "present" who are omnivores, and passing judgement on everyone around you; while screaming about people judging you (which no one has)...

Yes, a lot of them are true vegetarians (especially in the southern states).

In Gujarat, my in-laws would be 99% vegetarians (they love big shrimps too much). They eat/drink "dal" 3 times a day with their meal. Lentils are dominant, not chick peas. They eat mostly fresh vegetables and beans, along with "idli" (fluffy rice cake, vapor-cooked), naan bread, bean flour bread, and the occasional fried "pani puri" (indian fast food!!! let's get FAT!!!)

You a Gujju? Kemcho :)

In India being a veggie or not is a very personal issue. I have seen families where some members eat meat while others don't. Typically, males are more towards meat and females towards vegetarianism. The sheer variety of veggie food in India will blow any western veggie away.

From where I come from, South India, lentils ("Daal"), Green leaves ("Keerai") and vegetables with rice and rice based pancakes ("Dosai") and of course "Idli" are more dominant than the pea / channa / bread based north Indian cooking.

Btw, Did'nt know Gujaratis know how to make "Idlis". :D I miss Idlis :(

-Blah-Blah-Blah-Blah-Blah

So, three people say something you disagree with, you now feel you need to take it out on every single "omnivore" in the thread? When you progress passed your 2 year old child mentality, join the rest of the adults in the chatroom.

You a Gujju? Kemcho
Almost! :D
My sister's husband is from Gujarat (actually, his father's from Kolkata and his mother's from Mumbay but that's another story). I've been there a few time; it's a great family. The mother's vegetarian but the father loves seafood. They never eat red meat or even poultry.

When we were there, she wanted to cook us some chicken but we constantly refused -- the table was already crumbling with food, at each meal. Add the scorching heat, and imagine how sleepy we would get after meals. Besides, we loved her usual food a lot. The had these wonderful giant shrimps, that they cook in mustard oil... hmmm!
Not to mention the paan. But nobody knows about paan here, right?

Forgive me for not reading it out of context.

Similized; You need serious mental help.... He made a statement; there was no fucking context for it to be taken out of.... You're the one ADDING to his statements, and ASSUMING some malignity behind it....

You seriously need to get your head OUT OF YOUR ASS....

Eat more fish, it's brain food; at your stage.... You fucking need it...

To those who said they can't understand vegiterianism: it is often because vegitarians believe killing other conscious life is wrong. Even if you don't agree with this I would've thought it was a pretty easy concept to understand.

Secondly, it is a myth that vegiterians cannot get enough protein in their diet without eating meat. The animal that has the proteins must have eaten a plant with protein in it at some point. True: proteins in meat are of higher quality than those in plants but if you combine a meal with rice or bread (e.g. vegetable curry with naan bread or rice). So if you put some thought into your veggie diet then you can be just as healthy as an omnivore.

Also, to those saying vegiterianism is unnatural: so what? If you think you should do something because of your moral reasons then why let biological convenience stop you. It would be natural for me to feel like hitting some of you people if you were here in front of me but I wouldn't do that, because of my morals. And in a way it is natural because we have brains capable of perceiving morals, and if our morals deny us killing other beings then it is natural not to do this.

Why should it matter that these animals are not as intelligent as us? As the dominant species we can either take it upon ourselves to make the rest of the planet work for us or we can be nice for once and protect those who cannot. Are their lives worth less because they can't look at themselves in the mirror, fear death, have a sense of history, etc? Maybe it would be more fun not having to go to work, go to war, etc.

Also, how could we be helping other species by natural selection through meat-eating? If an animal is bred in captivity for its meat then it is going to die anyway, whether its smart or not. The only thing we're doing to influence animals' evolution is for bigger udders, more meat, more eggs, etc. Thanks to us cows can no longer live properly without being milked regularly, fish are born that naturally swim upside down and die of swim bladder diseases, siamese cats develop respiratory problems because of the shape of their faces (I know thats not all due to meat eating but I'm on the theme of humanity's exploitation of nature at the moment) and so on.

Myself, I'd like to say I'm a total vegiterian, for moral reasons, but I just like meat too damn much. I'll almost always choose the vegiterian option, but if there's no cheese left in the fridge or I'm given meat I don't mind having it.

However, it is true... Naturally humans require small ammounts of Vitamin B12; which can only naturally be found in animal products; or when injesting betacarotine in the present of animal fats (our bodies can manufacture the B12 in this manner).....

Which is why Vegans/Vegetarians need to maintain a diet composed of fortified grains, or anything else which such added (a nutritional statement, not a point of belief).... Vegans can be as healthy as most other dietary compositions, as long as they are getting the proper nutritional value of their diet, and making sure that anything lacking in their diet, is supplimented....

I know this might sound harsh but... people who dnt drink milk r eat cheese r idiots!! If u do not milk a cow it will die in a lot of pain, now dat seems a bit crueler 2 me den squeezing its nipples every now nd again. Cows must be milked, so y not make use of its milk instead of throwing it away

Or we could have not selectively bred the cows to this point in the first place and let the calfs drink the excess milk (that's what its for after all). And how many vegans buy milk and cheese just to throw it away(lol)? If we just say "oh I might as well buy it now its on the supermarket shelf" about products we may think are immoral to buy, then nothing will ever change.

Or we could have not selectively bred the cows to this point in the first place and let the calfs drink the excess milk (that's what its for after all). And how many vegans buy milk and cheese just to throw it away(lol)?
Or... alternativly,...... u cud read da part were i admitted i may hav been rong wen dat guy proved me rong nd stop bein such a freekin goon!

However, it is true... Naturally humans require small ammounts of Vitamin B12; which can only naturally be found in animal products; or when injesting betacarotine in the present of animal fats (our bodies can manufacture the B12 in this manner).....

Which is why Vegans/Vegetarians need to maintain a diet composed of fortified grains, or anything else which such added (a nutritional statement, not a point of belief).... Vegans can be as healthy as most other dietary compositions, as long as they are getting the proper nutritional value of their diet, and making sure that anything lacking in their diet, is supplimented....


Animal products are not the ONLY source of B12...


Vitamin B12 is found in animal foods, fortified foods, and some fermented foods. Some sources of B12 are:
eggs
meat
poultry
fish
dairy products
tempeh and miso, which both come from soy

However, it is true... Naturally humans require small ammounts of Vitamin B12; which can only naturally be found in animal products; or when injesting betacarotine in the present of animal fats (our bodies can manufacture the B12 in this manner).....
I get my B12 from my cereal and granola (fortified), as well from natural sources like fish and yogurt. I get my protein from nuts and seafood. I haven't seen this mentioned (though I admit I skipped page 7), but a lot of people who call themselves vegetarians, the ones who still eat seafood at least, are more commonly being labeled "flexitarian". Of course I find this terminology to be absolute rubbish, because I feel like a fool trying to explain this to my friends and family when I ask for meat substitutes.

However, I admit I'm a different case.....I always liked some meats (specifically the birds.....I never was a huge fan of red meat), but the enzymes in my stomach no longer break them down well enough. This is where I could go into a long rant about what lead to that, and why I now only buy organic, but I'm sure I'll be accused of attempting to convert ;) However, since I've started eating a 95% vegetarian lifestyle, I find that I'm not even missing out on eating meat. I don't ever look at my parents' food and think "dang, that looks good" because I have no desire to even try it.

Also, I like Morningstar Farms version of chicken better than REAL chicken....

Simonist']I get my B12 from my cereal and granola (fortified), as well from natural sources like fish and yogurt. I get my protein from nuts and seafood. I haven't seen this mentioned (though I admit I skipped page 7), but a lot of people who call themselves vegetarians, the ones who still eat seafood at least, are more commonly being labeled "flexitarian". Of course I find this terminology to be absolute rubbish, because I feel like a fool trying to explain this to my friends and family when I ask for meat substitutes.

However, I admit I'm a different case.....I always liked some meats (specifically the birds.....I never was a huge fan of red meat), but the enzymes in my stomach no longer break them down well enough. This is where I could go into a long rant about what lead to that, and why I now only buy organic, but I'm sure I'll be accused of attempting to convert ;) However, since I've started eating a 95% vegetarian lifestyle, I find that I'm not even missing out on eating meat. I don't ever look at my parents' food and think "dang, that looks good" because I have no desire to even try it.

Also, I like Morningstar Farms version of chicken better than REAL chicken....

if yer in SOCal then you should look for VegeUSA (http://vegeusa.com/) foods - so good!

Or... alternativly,...... u cud read da part were i admitted i may hav been rong wen dat guy proved me rong nd stop bein such a freekin goon!

Actually I thought I was arguing against a different point here. And anyway, you were right according to what I could find - cows suffer a lot of pain if they're not milked and they are milked every day (source: http://www.creamland.com/mteamproj3.html). And that lactation period the other guy mentioned was 300 days, which only leaves a cow 2 months a year of break from being milked, so yeah a milking cow would still be fucked if it was kept away from a milking machine and its young.

And sorry, I did look back after I had wrote my two posts at the posting that had been going on while I was typing and you took it like a gent :) can we be friends now?

Question: when you were talking about the vegitarian foods "fortified" with B12, does that mean that they've been fortified with B12 taken from animals? Also, what does vitamin B12 do?

yeh best buddies now. ;)

Quote:
Vitamin B12 is found in animal foods, fortified foods, and some fermented foods. Some sources of B12 are:
eggs
meat
poultry
fish
dairy products
tempeh and miso, which both come from soy

Also, I searched on google and found this:
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

Question: when you were talking about the vegitarian foods "fortified" with B12, does that mean that they've been fortified with B12 taken from animals? Also, what does vitamin B12 do?

I found this:

What every vegan should know about vitamin B12
Very low B12 intakes can cause anaemia and nervous system damage.

The only reliable vegan sources of B12 are foods fortified with B12 (including some plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals) and B12 supplements. Vitamin B12, whether in supplements, fortified foods, or animal products, comes from micro-organisms.

Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anaemia and nervous system damage, but many do not get enough to minimise potential risk of heart disease or pregnancy complications.

To get the full benefit of a vegan diet, vegans should do one of the following:


eat fortified foods two or three times a day to get at least three micrograms (µg or mcg) of B12 a day or


take one B12 supplement daily providing at least 10 micrograms or


take a weekly B12 supplement providing at least 2000 micrograms.
If relying on fortified foods check the labels carefully to make sure you are getting enough B12. For example, if a fortified plant milk contains 1 microgram of B12 per serving then consuming three servings a day will provide adequate vitamin B12. Others may find the use of B12 supplements more convenient and economical.

The less frequently you obtain B12 the more B12 you need to take, as B12 is best absorbed in small amounts. The recommendations above take full account of this. There is no harm in exceeding the recommended amounts or combining more than one option.




and this:

vitamin B12

What Is It?

In l948, scientists were successful in identifying a nutritional substance in calf's liver that could prevent pernicious anemia, a potentially deadly disorder that mainly affects older adults. The compound—vitamin Bl2 (or cobalamin)—turned out to be the last vitamin to be discovered.

Not only does vitamin B12 help in the formation of healthy red blood cells (which protect against anemia), it is also involved in the maintenance of the myelin sheath, the fatty substance that covers nerves and enables them to function properly. The body also needs this vitamin for cell replication, proper energy metabolism, and to create the genetic material in cells known as DNA and RNA.

Vitamin B12 is also of potential value in treating the effects of aging and Alzheimer's disease, as well as depression, the skin disorder known as rosacea, tinnitus (ringing in the ears), and various neurologic problems. It may also help to prevent heart disease and boost the immune system.

Vitamin B12 is the only B vitamin that the body stores in substantial amounts. In addition, most people get adequate amounts from their diets. For the body to absorb the vitamin, however, it has to be separated from the protein in food, a complicated process. An individual must be able to produce enough digestive enzymes, stomach acid, and intrinsic factor (a substance secreted by cells in the stomach lining) for this separation to take place. Then the vitamin bonds with intrinsic factor and is transported to the small intestine, where it is absorbed. Some individuals are unable to make sufficient quantities of intrinsic factor or stomach acid as they age, a situation ripe for a deficiency to develop. Experts estimate that as many as 20% of older adults are deficient in vitamin B12 but don’t know it.

In addition other groups are also at particular risk for a deficiency: those with ulcers, Crohn's disease or other gastrointestinal disorders, and those taking medication for epilepsy, chronic heartburn, or gout. In addition, heavy drinkers are likely to have low levels of B12 because excessive alcohol consumption hinders the nutrient's absorption. People who don't eat any meat products (vegans) are also at risk. A deficiency can cause fatigue, depression, confusion, memory loss, muscle weakness, and numbness and tingling in the hands and feet due to nerve damage.


Forms

tablet
spray
liquid
General Interaction

There are no known drug or nutrient interactions associated with vitamin B12.

Cautions


Be sure to take a folic acid supplement along with vitamin B12. A high intake of one can mask a deficiency in the other.

Taking large amounts of vitamin B12 does not appear to cause any adverse effects. The body efficiently excretes any excess in the urine.
Ailments & Dosage:
Anemia - 1,000 mcg in sublingual form once a day
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - 1,000 mg a day
Crohn's Disease - 1,000 mcg a day, sublingually
Infertility, Male - 1,000 mcg a day
Rosacea /U] - 1,000 mcg a day in addition to that supplied by your B complex. Take sublingually with 400 mcg folic acid.
[U]Tinnitus - 1,000 mcg sublingually a day

The B12 in fermented products comes from dead bacteria or yeasts.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

Fermented milk (yogurt, cheese, kaffir) and soy (tempeh, miso) are easier to digest and more nutritive.

Question: when you were talking about the vegitarian foods "fortified" with B12, does that mean that they've been fortified with B12 taken from animals? Also, what does vitamin B12 do?
B12's biggest purpose is the formation of red blood cells and maintaining the nervous system, but it also assists in the synthesis of DNA during cell division. Some types of bacteria in the large intestine have, in some people, been able to synthesize Vitamin B12, but mostly if it's not brought into the body by meat, eggs and dairy, it can be supplemented through various algae sources (spirulina, nori, etc). It's also rich in human feces, and lots of vegans in nations outside of the US where more food is personally grown, fertilize in human feces so as to grow more B12-rich vegetables.

Most of my foods have been fortified through the soil when the plants were being grown -- I've never had a desire to really look into the fertilization methods, after learning about the human poop thingie.....but there you have it. Any other questions?

Edit: speaking of food, my parents and I are now going out to a celebratory dinner :D Back in a few hours!

It's also rich in human feces, and lots of vegans in nations outside of the US where more food is personally grown, fertilize in human feces so as to grow more B12-rich vegetables.
True! A vegan sect in Iran was studied extensively in the 20th century, because they exhibited no signs of vitamin B12 deprivation. They use human manure to grow vegetables.

Also, I've read that some of the vegetal sources of B12 don't give a form that's usable by the human body, but I'm still trying to retrieve my sources.

Anyway... I think that vegetarians can live a healthy life, as much as moderate carnivores (true omnivores) can... but the case for vegans is much harder to advocate.

Animal products are not the ONLY source of B12...

Fermentaion comes from Yeast; Yeast is not a plant, it is a fungus (Strict Vegans won't eat yeast; though most will)...

Soy and Grains are FORTIFIED.... That is the B12 is added in pre-harvest processing in the soil or fertilizer.... It's not "naturally" found in them (I mentioned the importance of making sure fortified grains/foods were in the diet, when a lack of animal products are available)....

The only "natural" sources of B12 (that is, without artificial fortification) is in fungi and animal products....

That said, try again...

Fermentaion comes from Yeast; Yeast is not a plant, it is a fungus (Strict Vegans won't eat yeast; though most will)...

Soy and Grains are FORTIFIED.... That is the B12 is added in post-harvest processing.... It's not "naturally" found in them (I mentioned the importance of making sure fortified grains/foods were in the diet, when a lack of animal products are available)....

The only "natural" sources of B12 (that is, without artificial fortification) is in fungi and animal products....

That said, try again...

Now that you have revised your claim as to where B12 comes from theres no need for us to go on, or are you claiming that yeast is an animal? :confused:

You may apoogize now for being so angry about being wrong. :p

Question: when you were talking about the vegitarian foods "fortified" with B12, does that mean that they've been fortified with B12 taken from animals? Also, what does vitamin B12 do?

Typically, they do.... Though not in all cases, B12 can be manufactured chemically as well... Typical "Vegan Friendly" foods use artificial B12 fortification...

Vitamin B12 is used for several things by our bodies.

It's required for Nerve cell activity.
DNA replication.
production of SAMe (S-adenosyl-L-methionine) a moon altering agent.
And with Folic Acid for controling levels of homocysteine amino-acid levels.

The first symptom of deficiency is fatigue... followed by a numbness and tingling in extremities, and finally resulting in advanced cases with psychosis...

It generally takes years for deficiency to surface, as our bodies maintain a reserve, and do not require high levels of B12...

The B12 in fermented products comes from dead bacteria or yeasts.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

Fermented milk (yogurt, cheese, kaffir) and soy (tempeh, miso) are easier to digest and more nutritive.

you know, I've always wondered about the human obsession with "bad milk"... :))

Cheese
Yogurt
Sour Cream...

Now that you have revised your claim as to where B12 comes from theres no need for us to go on, or are you claiming that yeast is an animal? :confused:

You may apoogize now for being so angry about being wrong. :p

I didn't revise anything. I said it is naturally found in animal products...

And in the second paragraph mentioned how it can be attained through Fortified foods... It's not my fault you're incapable of reading past the first paragraph of a post.

Yeast is a fungi.... Not a plant... More closely related to Bacteria. Not technically an "animal" either.... Though since it's not in the Plant Kingdom, some Vegans won't consume it.

I didn't revise anything. I said it is naturally found in animal products...

And in the second paragraph mentioned how it can be attained through Fortified foods... It's not my fault you're incapable of reading past the first paragraph of a post.

Yeast is a fungi.... Not a plant... More closely related to Bacteria. Not technically an "animal" either.... Though since it's not in the Plant Kingdom, some Vegans won't consume it.


calm down little buddy - breath - relax - it'll all be okay.

Y'know... I just find it hard to believe that there's no plant or intestinal source of B12. I read the whole link about how only fortified foods and supplements can adequately supply vegans, and I've seen the same sort of information in other places, and I suppose it's a moot point for me anyway considering I just ate yogurt on my granola and asiago cheese on my pasta today. Still though, I think it's gotta be bullshit that we couldn't eat properly without animals or artificial methods.

Y'know... I just find it hard to believe that there's no plant or intestinal source of B12. I read the whole link about how only fortified foods and supplements can adequately supply vegans, and I've seen the same sort of information in other places, and I suppose it's a moot point for me anyway considering I just ate yogurt on my granola and asiago cheese on my pasta today. Still though, I think it's gotta be bullshit that we couldn't eat properly without animals or artificial methods.

Humans are natural omnivores.... what do you expect? Or are you trying to argue against established human evolution, and that we aren't omnivores?

Y'know... I just find it hard to believe that there's no plant or intestinal source of B12. I read the whole link about how only fortified foods and supplements can adequately supply vegans, and I've seen the same sort of information in other places, and I suppose it's a moot point for me anyway considering I just ate yogurt on my granola and asiago cheese on my pasta today. Still though, I think it's gotta be bullshit that we couldn't eat properly without animals or artificial methods.
What, you didn't read my post ;) There have been some people whose large intestines can adequately synthesize a compound near enough to B12 (I think there's only the difference that it's self-produced) for the body to live off of that.

That's okay, though. Y'know, I get lost in the shuffle....under-appreciated.....crying in the corner.....

True, except cows dnt give birth that often, so a cow wnt always have a calf 2 milk it. Nd if people dnt milk da cow wen it has no calf it will die den.
Do you know how they get milk cows to produce milk? They artificially inseminate (sp?) them then abort the calf. That way, they can produce milk without the wait for calving.

Addition: Sorry, I posted as I read and before I read everything in the thread. I promise I'm not being abnoxious. :D

Dito here!
Maybe in retrospect i should have included more options such as omnivore in my poll but it's too late for that now and besides i have got my answer as far as percentages go, the overwhelming numbers of carnivores out there ensures that McDonalds,Burger King... are not going to go away anytime soon,and it ensures that my job as a meatcutter will be safe for years to come unless there is another disease like Mad Cow out there waiting to jump into the food chain.

Maybe in retrospect i should have included more options such as omnivore in my poll but it's too late for that now and besides i have got my answer as far as percentages go, the overwhelming numbers of carnivores out there ensures that McDonalds,Burger King... are not going to go away anytime soon,and it ensures that my job as a meatcutter will be safe for years to come unless there is another disease like Mad Cow out there waiting to jump into the food chain.
Oh yeah, that just reminded me that I didn't vote.......ah well, no use now, right?

As far as I see it though. the point is that we as human beings have developed brains such that we are able to apparently possess freedom of choice: thus we are able to decide whether to eat meat or not.

Perhaps but I was arguing that an omnivorous diet led us to be able to decide whether to eat meat. I was probably off the point though

It's kinda cruel, when you think of it. But that's the way we raise farm animals.

I think hunting might be more ehtical. :D
i agree, that's why i only hunt and fish for meat(unless it's nesicary).

I just happened to be chowing down on a soy hot dog when I saw this thread, so I had to check it out. I'm vegan, cause I was a vegetarian, and lactose-intolerant, and egg yolks gross me out. It seemed like a logical transition. My favourite foods are wakami, bok choy, kim chi, and TVP. I don't like to eat meat, so I don't, basically.
"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals; I'm a vegetarian because I HATE VEGETABLES!"
-unknown